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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    That is correct. Having thousands of miles of border to watch, it just wont happen effectivly. But removing the incentive to come here will help them decide not to in the first place.
    I think that you think that I am attacking your position; I am not. I am merely pointing out that whilst this might reduce to some extent the level of illegal immigration, it would also (and to a much greater extent) increase the incidence of criminal activity in the group of immigrants who would be in the US.
    Consider this; a Black Market is, in effect, the same as any other market - except that it isn't regulated or watched over by any legitimate authority. There is more money in the US, than in e.g. Mexico. Pure and simple; and this is incentive enough for a lot of people to go there. Once they get there, they will find some means of getting a "piece of the pie", one way or the other. And since they are cut off from all legitimate markets, they will be forced to seek relevant services elsewhere. If the immigrants are willing to pay, don't you think that someone will be willing to provide?

    Drugs are illegal; yet they somehow miraculously appear in the US, and many US citizens happily use them. How come the prohibition hasn't worked?
    [..] the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damwa View Post
    I think that you think that I am attacking your position; I am not. I am merely pointing out that whilst this might reduce to some extent the level of illegal immigration, it would also (and to a much greater extent) increase the incidence of criminal activity in the group of immigrants who would be in the US.
    Consider this; a Black Market is, in effect, the same as any other market - except that it isn't regulated or watched over by any legitimate authority. There is more money in the US, than in e.g. Mexico. Pure and simple; and this is incentive enough for a lot of people to go there. Once they get there, they will find some means of getting a "piece of the pie", one way or the other. And since they are cut off from all legitimate markets, they will be forced to seek relevant services elsewhere. If the immigrants are willing to pay, don't you think that someone will be willing to provide?

    Drugs are illegal; yet they somehow miraculously appear in the US, and many US citizens happily use them. How come the prohibition hasn't worked?
    I understand what you are saying and it might drive those that remain to more criminal activites to support themselves. But it has been proven that coming here isnt cheap and most that are (one of my suggested ideas) deported once or twice do not come back because they cannot afford to.

    For many their families save (in some cases years) to send over a male in the family. That male will then find an american job and send a small percent of his paycheck back to his family. They then save this up to send more members over. Deporting all that are found would help break this cycle. Who would want to risk many years of savings if it was likely only to be a waste.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    That is correct. Having thousands of miles of border to watch, it just wont happen effectivly. But removing the incentive to come here will help them decide not to in the first place.
    Right, because someone will actually implement a system which will effectively work. It is already illegal to employee illegal immigrants, yet, does that stop employees from doing so? No. Cheap labor is cheap labor.

    Let's take California as an example. If you are operating strawberry fields in California, what is your pool of possible employees? The low income legal residents? Hell no, they can easily get minimum wage jobs in the cities working fast foods, janitorial jobs, etc or simply do what many of them legals do as well as a proportional amount of illegals, commit crime for profit!

    Where there is wealth which can cover your basic needs such as housing and food, there is illegal population. Where there is wealth, there are wealthy people willing to limit the spending of their money by using the cheapest possible labor. You think that Feds will be actually raiding private houses who employee illegal baby sitters and house cleaners? You think that Feds will actually monitor who mows your lawn and who's actually employed by the company? You simply can't stop illegal immigrants who are in the country, but you CAN prevent them from being able to enter the country.

    As for benefits, how are you going to eliminate that? How are you going to eliminate people from using fake identities to get into the system? How are you going to eliminate free clinics funded by charities? How are you going to eliminate religious organizations? Will you tell a church to not provide the assistance for the low-income families? They'll simply tell you to go fuck yourself in a polite christian way.

    See, all of you Anti-Illegals are basically fighting against your own fight. You fail to realize that your strategy of yelling block this or restrict that does nothing. Seriously, think about it, has any of this been effective? No? Exactly! It's NOT! It's pretty much equal to commies saying Communism is practical. It's not. Unless U.S. becomes a complete fascist state comparable to the 3rd Reich, where government has blank check for every action, your strategy simply won't work. The good news for you is that U.S. is actually becoming slowly a fascist state, so who knows.

    As for the border enforcement, why not try it? If your continuous bitching and whining about illegals doesn't do anything, why not try something new? Who says that actually having some sort of physical barrier and advanced surveillance across the border won't work? Who says that combining eased immigration process with enforced borders won't discourage illegal immigration and encourage legal ways of entry?

    Instead of idiotic bitching about the issue and continuously promoting idiotic restricting concepts which won't change shit, how about actually try something logical?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefastus View Post
    Right, because someone will actually implement a system which will effectively work. It is already illegal to employee illegal immigrants, yet, does that stop employees from doing so? No. Cheap labor is cheap labor.

    Let's take California as an example. If you are operating strawberry fields in California, what is your pool of possible employees? The low income legal residents? Hell no, they can easily get minimum wage jobs in the cities working fast foods, janitorial jobs, etc or simply do what many of them legals do as well as a proportional amount of illegals, commit crime for profit!

    Where there is wealth which can cover your basic needs such as housing and food, there is illegal population. Where there is wealth, there are wealthy people willing to limit the spending of their money by using the cheapest possible labor. You think that Feds will be actually raiding private houses who employee illegal baby sitters and house cleaners? You think that Feds will actually monitor who mows your lawn and who's actually employed by the company? You simply can't stop illegal immigrants who are in the country, but you CAN prevent them from being able to enter the country.

    As for benefits, how are you going to eliminate that? How are you going to eliminate people from using fake identities to get into the system? How are you going to eliminate free clinics funded by charities? How are you going to eliminate religious organizations? Will you tell a church to not provide the assistance for the low-income families? They'll simply tell you to go fuck yourself in a polite christian way.

    See, all of you Anti-Illegals are basically fighting against your own fight. You fail to realize that your strategy of yelling block this or restrict that does nothing. Seriously, think about it, has any of this been effective? No? Exactly! It's NOT! It's pretty much equal to commies saying Communism is practical. It's not. Unless U.S. becomes a complete fascist state comparable to the 3rd Reich, where government has blank check for every action, your strategy simply won't work. The good news for you is that U.S. is actually becoming slowly a fascist state, so who knows.

    As for the border enforcement, why not try it? If your continuous bitching and whining about illegals doesn't do anything, why not try something new? Who says that actually having some sort of physical barrier and advanced surveillance across the border won't work? Who says that combining eased immigration process with enforced borders won't discourage illegal immigration and encourage legal ways of entry?

    Instead of idiotic bitching about the issue and continuously promoting idiotic restricting concepts which won't change shit, how about actually try something logical?
    I think you failed to read my ideas.

    Two main reasons people employ Illegals.
    1. it is cheap. Current fines dont mean crap in most states. They are to small. Take tyson for example. They may raid a Tyson facility once every few years busting them. But when they only charge 10k per illegal per every few years. They still save money by hiring them.
    2. The Government has not given employers any legal means to determen legal status.

    My suggestions to fix both were.

    1. Fine heavly anyone caught employing illegals (after ID system is in place). 250k per illegal employee would make then insure they were legal.

    2. Any legal immigrant must enter thier photo and fingerprint into a nationwide database along with thier green card number. This way an employeer can check to make sure everything matches. If they do not he notifies the authorities. The authorities can then investigate the matter and make sure they are legit.

    Edit- Also charities and churches. ITs simple you make it illegal to give aid to an illegal immigrant. No different then aiding a fugitive. If a illegal immigrant is in dire need (life or death) they can notify the authorities. Once treated they will be deported.

    See, all of you Anti-Illegals are basically fighting against your own fight. You fail to realize that your strategy of yelling block this or restrict that does nothing
    This is where you are wrong. Take a look at Oklahoma which passed laws refusing aid to them. What happened? They noticed many are leaving and none are coming in.
    Last edited by Baralis; 10-04-2008 at 03:45.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I understand what you are saying and it might drive those that remain to more criminal activites to support themselves. But it has been proven that coming here isnt cheap and most that are (one of my suggested ideas) deported once or twice do not come back because they cannot afford to.

    For many their families save (in some cases years) to send over a male in the family. That male will then find an american job and send a small percent of his paycheck back to his family. They then save this up to send more members over. Deporting all that are found would help break this cycle. Who would want to risk many years of savings if it was likely only to be a waste.
    But I question the supposition that many more people would be found if such laws as you suggested were implemented. If the illegal (or prospective illegal) immigrant knew *from the outset* that he had to stay away from all legitimate businesses and institutions; wouldn't he just do that? And how or when would he be discovered then?
    [..] the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    Are you saying that blacks and hispanics are poor because we force them to be? (Legal ones of course)
    Uh, no. I'm saying if you look at the crime rates of middle-class wealthy blacks/hispanics/minorities, they'll be significantly better.
    Quote Originally Posted by XKwisite View Post
    How do those guys only hit you for 5 damage in the back lol?
    Quote Originally Posted by Punish View Post
    Well, 70 rigor, full set of plate, stoneskin and arrow ward.

    Yeah, I hope they hit less with their shitty weapons and skills. I haven't logged hundreds of hours into this game for nothing.
    ^ sum up of Afghanistan

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Septus View Post
    Uh, no. I'm saying if you look at the crime rates of middle-class wealthy blacks/hispanics/minorities, they'll be significantly better.
    Aye I wouldnt doubt that at all.



    And just want it to be clear to everyone. I have nothing at all against a person because of thier skin color. I never said nor do I believe that because your a minority or differently colored then I that you are any better/worse.

    Also I think we should make the process easier for immigrants to come here legaly. There are alot of hard working, law abiding immigrants that would be nice additions to our country.
    Last edited by Baralis; 10-04-2008 at 03:53.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damwa View Post
    But I question the supposition that many more people would be found if such laws as you suggested were implemented. If the illegal (or prospective illegal) immigrant knew *from the outset* that he had to stay away from all legitimate businesses and institutions; wouldn't he just do that? And how or when would he be discovered then?
    Most businesses in the US are legitmate. It would be no different then anyone else that do shady buisness. They will eventually be discovered and when they are you deport them.

  9. #39
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    Illegal kind of means they shouldn't be here anyway.

    Arm the people.

    Kill the infidels.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    Most businesses in the US are legitmate. It would be no different then anyone else that do shady buisness. They will eventually be discovered and when they are you deport them.
    I guess that you are more optimistic than I am about law enforcements ability to uncover shady businesses.
    [..] the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I think you failed to read my ideas.

    Two main reasons people employ Illegals.
    1. it is cheap. Current fines dont mean crap in most states. They are to small. Take tyson for example. They may raid a Tyson facility once every few years busting them. But when they only charge 10k per illegal per every few years. They still save money by hiring them.
    2. The Government has not given employers any legal means to determen legal status.

    My suggestions to fix both were.

    1. Fine heavly anyone caught employing illegals (after ID system is in place). 250k per illegal employee would make then insure they were legal.

    2. Any legal immigrant must enter thier photo and fingerprint into a nationwide database along with thier green card number. This way an employeer can check to make sure everything matches. If they do not he notifies the authorities. The authorities can then investigate the matter and make sure they are legit.
    How's that stopping illegal immigration? Fine, you'll prevent large corporations from hiring illegals, but what about small businesses which you virtually can't monitor. If I can pay a friend for helping me fix my home, I can pay 10 illegals to fix my home. Unless you have some sort of a commie like system of neighbor snitch police or fascist authority which can kidnap, torture or beat you in front of your house, it won't do shit. As I said earlier, you live in certain realities, where not everything is black and white. As someone said earlier, drugs are illegal and can lead you to years in prison, yet, does that stop anything? Does that stop the guy on the corner selling crack, black, crystal, pills or anything? World and U.S. is not black and white.

    Income does not only come from large corporations. Income = Any individual or an organization willing to give another person or a group money for their services.

    Higher fines for businesses employing illegals only means that larger businesses won't employ illegals. It does not stop or prevent illegals from entering the country. They can still come here, and they can still gain profit for their services to private people and small business which there is no way of monitoring.

    I'll even use EE's argument of Illegals = Crime, which is stupid, never the less, works against him if we use the fine argument. If EE TECHNICALLY WOULD BE CORRECT, how do higher fines and nationalized ID/verification system prevent so called illegal criminals from robbing and killing people? Will you include a national verification for professional criminals too? If so many illegals commit crime for profit, how does your system prevent that? According to that logic, again, only solution to that would be physically preventing them from crossing the border = enforced borders.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefastus View Post
    How's that stopping illegal immigration? Fine, you'll prevent large corporations from hiring illegals, but what about small businesses which you virtually can't monitor. If I can pay a friend for helping me fix my home, I can pay 10 illegals to fix my home. Unless you have some sort of a commie like system of neighbor snitch police or fascist authority which can kidnap, torture or beat you in front of your house, it won't do shit. As I said earlier, you live in certain realities, where not everything is black and white. As someone said earlier, drugs are illegal and can lead you to years in prison, yet, does that stop anything? Does that stop the guy on the corner selling crack, black, crystal, pills or anything? World and U.S. is not black and white.

    Income does not only come from large corporations. Income = Any individual or an organization willing to give another person or a group money for their services.

    Higher fines for businesses employing illegals only means that larger businesses won't employ illegals. It does not stop or prevent illegals from entering the country. They can still come here, and they can still gain profit for their services to private people and small business which there is no way of monitoring.

    I'll even use EE's argument of Illegals = Crime, which is stupid, never the less, works against him if we use the fine argument. If EE TECHNICALLY WOULD BE CORRECT, how do higher fines and nationalized ID/verification system prevent so called illegal criminals from robbing and killing people? Will you include a national verification for professional criminals too? If so many illegals commit crime for profit, how does your system prevent that? According to that logic, again, only solution to that would be physically preventing them from crossing the border = enforced borders.
    I will agree with you and say that monitoring small buisness woundnt likely happen.

    I have no idea what you are meaning by the criminal aspect there? Unless you mean criminals would cross anyway?

    And what do you suggest we do? So far you have acted like all is fine let them come over freely.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I have no idea what you are meaning by the criminal aspect there? Unless you mean criminals would cross anyway?

    And what do you suggest we do? So far you have acted like all is fine let them come over freely.
    He meant that if you prevent them from getting jobs here, they'll be more apt to turn to crime.

    They'll still come here because even as maids/gardeners/whatever in America they live better than they otherwise would in Mexico.

    I think he was pretty blunt about what he suggests. The only way to prevent illegal immigration is at the border.
    Quote Originally Posted by XKwisite View Post
    How do those guys only hit you for 5 damage in the back lol?
    Quote Originally Posted by Punish View Post
    Well, 70 rigor, full set of plate, stoneskin and arrow ward.

    Yeah, I hope they hit less with their shitty weapons and skills. I haven't logged hundreds of hours into this game for nothing.
    ^ sum up of Afghanistan

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Septus View Post
    He meant that if you prevent them from getting jobs here, they'll be more apt to turn to crime.

    They'll still come here because even as maids/gardeners/whatever in America they live better than they otherwise would in Mexico.

    I think he was pretty blunt about what he suggests. The only way to prevent illegal immigration is at the border.
    Ahh got ya. Better lives perhaps as far as income but thier children wouldnt be educated and they would not recieve medical treatment (by legal means anyway) nor any other type goverment aid. Also thier children wouldnt become citizens by birth.

    There is just to much broken right now. A illegal immigrant can come here and live 100% off of government aid and live better then a working life in thier original country most of the time. What kind of message is that sending out to them. Come to america and you can have a free ride and better then what you have now. How can we not expect them to flock over in the millions like they have.
    Last edited by Baralis; 10-04-2008 at 04:09.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    This is where you are wrong. Take a look at Oklahoma which passed laws refusing aid to them. What happened? They noticed many are leaving and none are coming in.
    Right, because Oklahoma represents the rest of country where most illegals are located. Unfortunately, it's a straw argument there. Most of illegals go to urbanized states and cities, where such laws can't be enforced due to the population.

    It's easy to enforce such laws in barren states such as Oklahoma since you can easily isolate institutions providing such aid and the comparably small illegal population receiving that aid. Try to implement that in LA County, especially in East LA. No matter how hard you try, you'll still have private and religious organizations and charities providing assistance to illegals and low income families.

    Try to have those groups physically barred from helping the poor in the poor areas. All you'll end up is another LA riots, since poor people will defend poor people. You forget that you have legal families and friends living with illegals here. People see you physically use authority to stop private non-profit organizations from providing assistance on skid row, East LA, South Central, you'll get the legal population in that area burning your Beverly Hills homes and such.

    Again, world is not black and white, let's be realistic here.

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