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  1. #1
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    Default Hydrogen Enhanced Vehicles

    http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

    I'm giving this serious thought in regards to my 1989 GMC Suburban R2500 2WD 5.4L TBI. If this is accurate, I should be able to install a system that would increase power and efficiency by 30-40% without too much trouble.

    I'm also planning on converting to LPG/CNG for the main fuel to run it. With the HHO enhancement (assuming it even works) I should be able to do phenomenal things with my +12 Giant SUV of Earth Killing.

    No matter how good it gets though, I ain't painting my shit green.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

    I'm giving this serious thought in regards to my 1989 GMC Suburban R2500 2WD 5.4L TBI. If this is accurate, I should be able to install a system that would increase power and efficiency by 30-40% without too much trouble.

    I'm also planning on converting to LPG/CNG for the main fuel to run it. With the HHO enhancement (assuming it even works) I should be able to do phenomenal things with my +12 Giant SUV of Earth Killing.

    No matter how good it gets though, I ain't painting my shit green.





    Thoughts?
    This is the 175275305188 WATER4FUEL thread ive seen on forumfall, and it always ends up with a confused debate on whether or not you can totally replace water for hyrodgen, whether brownings gas is real, does this mean I can stop buying gas altogether, and reams of other bullshit.

    Basically you dont sound like a retard, and seem to have twigged that the idea is to increase efficiency, not replace your fuel source all together. However I am always dubious of a site with a number in the name, and water4gas frankly sounds like a pile of bullshit.

    If its too good to be true. Im skeptical on those kind of gains youd be seeing as well.


    Edit - just looked at the url you posted, and lost ALL respect for you. If I have to spell it out any further, then I think you need to take a few more chemistry classes.
    Last edited by chimp; 09-14-2008 at 20:14.

  3. #3

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    The only basic way to generate hydrogen from water is through electrolysis. This process requires 486 kJ of energy per mole (18.02 grams) of water. Burning this in oxygen then releases 486 kJ of energy per mole. (If you're not intricately familiar with joules as a unit, that's quite a bit. 486 kJ of energy is enough to bring almost 1.2 L of liquid water from 0 C to 100 C.) In both processes, energy is lost; some electrons used for electrolysis do not push the reaction forward at all, and some (in fact, most) of the heat released in the combustion does not drive the intended purpose of the combustion in the first place. The first law of thermodynamics tells us pretty much all of this.

    tl;dr version: Water can't be used as fuel. It can only be used as an indirect way of using electricity as fuel. By that very definition it won't be quite as efficient, but it may be more economically viable, practical, etc. to do it this way.
    Last edited by alfaroverall; 09-14-2008 at 20:19.
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  4. #4
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    Law of thermodynamics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitom View Post
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chimp View Post
    Edit - just looked at the url you posted, and lost ALL respect for you. If I have to spell it out any further, then I think you need to take a few more chemistry classes.
    Are you saying that adding hydrogen to the existing combustion will end up making the process less efficient?

    As for respect, I require none. I just require logical science one way or the other. Sofar all the arguments I've seen are based on the idea that this is the only fuel source involved, which is as you pointed out not at all the case.
    Last edited by Lysandor; 09-14-2008 at 20:23.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    Are you saying that adding hydrogen to the existing combustion will end up making the process less efficient?

    As for respect, I require none. I just require logical science one way or the other. Sofar all the arguments I've seen are based on the idea that this is the only fuel source involved, which is as you pointed out not at all the case.
    I'll post it once more for you.

    Law of thermodynamics.

    Here is a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

    There are better places to get this info, but this should give you a start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitom View Post
    If I didnt have forumfall to let out my negativity, I would have had cancer by now. Fuck you, you fucking fuck for wanting me to get cancer. Im'a report your ass.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    Are you saying that adding hydrogen to the existing combustion will end up making the process less efficient?

    As for respect, I require none. I just require logical science one way or the other. Sofar all the arguments I've seen are based on the idea that this is the only fuel source involved, which is as you pointed out not at all the case.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

    Alfar is right. The potential gains you might see from having a more efficient engine are generally negated by the fact that the electrolysis taking place is pretty inefficient, as is the combustion of hydrogen. Both of those being steps you could avoid by not bothering with.

    The only time you might see a gain is with engines that have problems with knocking, or with very old and low performance anyway. Most modern engines Id highly doubt you would see any difference in performance.

    Just LOOK at the website, and the things its claiming. It sounds like it was written by a child, and/or someone with absolutely no background in science what so ever.

  8. #8
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    Well, unless I'm completely missing the point, the law of thermodynamics says it is possible for this to work. Using a third thermodynamic system (hydrogen enhancement), you make the output of the second (actual combustion, which is very inefficient) as efficient as the first (electricity generation). Or at least moreso efficient, obviously some variables exist.

    I'm open to being wrong, but I almost think I'll need to try it myself ultimately.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chimp View Post
    Just LOOK at the website, and the things its claiming. It sounds like it was written by a child, and/or someone with absolutely no background in science what so ever.
    Which is why I'm even asking about this. Ignoring the site entirely since all it wants to do is sell you instruction manuals, my understanding of the scientific side of this seems to me like it should work.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    you make the output of the second (actual combustion, which is very inefficient) as efficient as the first (electricity generation)

    I'm open to being wrong, but I almost think I'll need to try it myself ultimately.
    "you make the output of the second (actual combustion, which is very inefficient) as efficient as the first (electricity generation)"

    No.

    Seriously no offence, but you seem to not understand basic thermodynamics, and if looking at that website didnt set off raging alarm bells in your head, I suggest you not hang around people who sell magic beans.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    Well, unless I'm completely missing the point, the law of thermodynamics says it is possible for this to work. Using a third thermodynamic system (hydrogen enhancement), you make the output of the second (actual combustion, which is very inefficient) as efficient as the first (electricity generation). Or at least moreso efficient, obviously some variables exist.

    I'm open to being wrong, but I almost think I'll need to try it myself ultimately.
    dude, this has been proven to be a complete ponzi scheme. the guy is getting sued by several class action lawsuits for promising something that can't be delivered. he's made millions, but looks like he'll lose it all.

    if you for some reason still want to buy into the system while it's failing, by all means, go for it.

    the main product that you get when you buy this stuff, is a book on how you can sell it. they even set up a website for you to refer people through.

  12. #12
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    I think they are just saying, you can't produce energy without putting energy in. There is no magic way to get around that. So If you where to produce hydrogen in your car, which as he said can only feasibly be done through electrolysis, it would take more energy to produce the hydrogen than you would gain by putting it back into the system.

    Anyway it just can't work. Sorry

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davinchy View Post
    I think they are just saying, you can't produce energy without putting energy in. There is no magic way to get around that. So If you where to produce hydrogen in your car, which as he said can only feasibly be done through electrolysis, it would take more energy to produce the hydrogen than you would gain by putting it back into the system.

    Anyway it just can't work. Sorry

    GJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitom View Post
    If I didnt have forumfall to let out my negativity, I would have had cancer by now. Fuck you, you fucking fuck for wanting me to get cancer. Im'a report your ass.

  14. #14
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    also, electrolysis in itself is a very efficient process... you really don't lose all that much energy that you put into the system. when they say "inefficient process" what they really mean is that you have to put a lot of energy in to get the same back. drilling for oil is much less "efficient," but because the earth and other forces have put so much more energy into it for you already, it's a much better solution.
    Last edited by stalwart; 09-14-2008 at 20:41.

  15. #15
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    This is the problem I've been running into quite a bit. Nobody can say exactly why it won't work without copy and pasting wikipedia or getting into a detailed explanation that isn't even addressing the actual question. Most everyone assumes it is just an old fuel idea brought up again, not that it is an additive to the existing system. Electricity from the engine is going to be generated either way, so why not use some of it to hopefully make the engine operate better?

    Either way, I won't be giving money to the people behind the website, I can build and install the system myself tomorrow. I just want more opinions on it.
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