View Poll Results: Should the man be punished/jailed?

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  • Yes.

    52 50.98%
  • No.

    35 34.31%
  • I'm not sure.

    15 14.71%
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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bawlin View Post
    Yes, him not remembering doesn't change the fact that he did it.
    But we must question the reason prison exists. Its primary function is to keep us safe, from people who would do us harm, right?

    Or do people really think it's there as a measure of punishment? Eh, I just don't know. Someone who loses all of his memory ceases to be the person he was before if you ask me. It's like, wiping his slate clean, memories mean everything here.

    Quote Originally Posted by heroshade View Post
    Yes.

    I can run around setting houses on fire then take a beating to the head and easily say I don't remember doing it. Unfourtunetly, it isn't possible to tell if somebody is lieing about memory loss. This is the reason we should strap them into the interior of the engine of the next space station.


    Regardless, even if it's not possible in real life, this is a hypothetical scenario... picture it in the future with more advanced technology if you must, but in this scenario, it is very well possible to determine if he is telling the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeblebrox View Post
    I believe he would be jailed, but I don't agree with it. You see, If there's no way he'll ever remember anything, it means he's another person now. You are who you are because of your memory. If his memory is all gone, he's not the same guy who commited the crime.

    Still, there would have to be some form of reparation for the woman and the dead casanovas family...
    Exactly my point. In a very real sense, you are your past. Without your past, you're like a computer with a new hard drive. Safe casing, but different... vastly different.

    Indeed, it's a horrible thing for them. But I question if punishment really is the answer. I never understood why people are obsessed with it. It almost seems like some ancient biblical need for revenge...
    Last edited by Death's Chill; 07-16-2008 at 22:23.


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  2. #17
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    it depends on what kind of memory loss it is.. like, does the guy not remember how to speak or how to tie his shoes and stuff? i thought when ppl lose their memories, they still know, for instance, what a tree is. if that's the case, the guy is still the same person technically, he just doesn't remember who he is.

    if a serial killer lost all his memories, he's obviously got some mental issues. a beating to the head wouldn't get rid of those mental issues (they may make it worse) and i'd say there's a good chance something like that could happen again.
    /thread
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanno View Post
    The only circumstance that provides sanctuary from legal recourse, is self defense. Otherwise, you are a threat/detriment to society.
    Not if you cease being yourself...

    Oh and the guy would of lost all personal memories. He would remember how to breathe, use the bathroom, walk, and eat. The basics of the subconscious, you know?

    But all of his short term memory and personal memories would be erased, things like what he did yesterday or where he was on summer vacation two years ago, or his very distant past... etcetera..

    Quote Originally Posted by Damwa View Post
    But that is a contestable *opinion* and not a scientific *fact*.

    To pose an (odious) question: Would a wolf cease to be a danger to sheep, if it were chemically deprived of its memories?
    No, because the wolf's basic instinct is to hunt to survive. It is hungry, losing its memory will not cease it to be a threat to its only venue to dinner.

    It's like saying that if a human loses his memory, his desire to eat will no longer be present. Of course that's not the case. The only difference is that we have a much easier way of procuring food.

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeSLicer View Post
    I vote yes because, deep down, he's a murderous deuchebag. It takes a special kind of person to kill someone over something like that. Don't marry a whore if you don't want to be cheated on. If you are, tough shit, move on.
    Oh believe me I see your point. If someone killed a person I cared about (even if I was cheating on the person who murders him..) then, I would be fucking pissed. But if he loses his memory, seriously, I don't consider him the same person at all. As long as there is a way to prove that he cannot ever recover his memory, I don't see any need to imprison him, nor punish him.

    It's like, a physical clone, without memory implants. They are not there and never will be. He looks the same, sounds the same, but isn't the same at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja vu View Post
    if you commit a murder while blacked out from Alcohol or drugs you still should have to do the time, I don't think this should be an exception.
    The difference is, while yes you won't remember the actual crime, you still will have all of your other previous personal memories. You are still you. So, I don't think it is identical to this scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by emasame View Post
    wow thats pretty interesting.
    if he really has no recollection it would be like hes going to do hard time for someone elses action. If hes got some kind of brain damage though cause you said hes just like a kid, maybe he'd be better off dead?
    When I said he'd be "just like a kid", I meant only temporarily. He's a blank slate... kids are carefree, innocent, because they have no memory of knowledge of the world they are living in. As they grow and develop, so does their brain, and their experiences, so their perspective and who they are changes too.

    Eventually, as time moves on, if he was not incarcerated, I think he would develop into a totally different person than who he was previously. It's a very interesting thing to think about.
    Last edited by Death's Chill; 07-16-2008 at 22:22.


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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeblebrox View Post
    Well the wolf would probably still attack the sheep because it's part of it's instinct. He must feed. But I don't see why the man would commit murder again. Unless, of course, we believe that somehow he also has some kind of brain disfunction (or instinct) that would make him some kind of sociopath with an urge to kill.

    But it's a tough choice. Not because of the amnesia guy but because of the fact that a crime still took place and something must be done to repair that for the family and the society as a whole.
    Obviously the example was odious, and obviously the man wouldn't be guaranteed to kill again - but if the part of his "character" (for lack of a better term) which enabled/spurred him to kill someone out of hurt pride is still intact; wouldn't it be unreasonable to let him off the hook, simply because he didn't remember the particular act?
    I don't know about the US, but in Danish law someone who couldn't remember a criminal act committed under some "altered state", would be off the hook, *if* the altered state was unforeseeable (getting drunk or stoned isn't an excuse), *if* the altered state entailed either psychosis (lacking ability to distinguish imagination from reality) or some manner of reduced mental capacity (lacking ability to utilize ones rational mental faculties).
    In so far as the person was completely clear-minded (in this regard) whilst committing the crime, the subsequent memory-loss seems only relevant to the extent that it has also altered his "character". If he could reasonably be expected to do the exact same thing, under the same circumstances; memory-loss is only a contingency and not an apology.
    That is, at least, one possible argument.
    [..] the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    Exactly my point. In a very real sense, you are your past. Without your past, your like a computer with a new hard drive. Safe casing, but different... vastly different.
    to use that same analogy in conjunction w/ my above post, say you're hard drive has some physical damage to it so it fucks up or something. "reformatting" it won't do a thing b/c it isn't a software error.

    so.. i guess it boils down to whether the guy had some mental instability or not. i wouldn't say that ANY normal person would kill the adulterous bastard, but i do think it's somewhat of an extenuating circumstance, at least in this scenario. i guess i'm not really sure
    /thread
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  6. #21
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    yes
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  7. #22
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    I dont understand how this question is even debatable. Does his not remembering the act mean that his physical person did not actually kill the guy? No. Unless it could be proven that at the time of the murder he was not aware of his actions, as in, he was completely insane, then there is absolutely no reason for him to be let off.

  8. #23
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    Honor killing for the wife.

    Kthnx

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damwa View Post
    Obviously the example was odious, and obviously the man wouldn't be guaranteed to kill again - but if the part of his "character" (for lack of a better term) which enabled/spurred him to kill someone out of hurt pride is still intact; wouldn't it be unreasonable to let him off the hook, simply because he didn't remember the particular act?
    I don't know about the US, but in Danish law someone who couldn't remember a criminal act committed under some "altered state", would be off the hook, *if* the altered state was unforeseeable (getting drunk or stoned isn't an excuse), *if* the altered state entailed either psychosis (lacking ability to distinguish imagination from reality) or some manner of reduced mental capacity (lacking ability to utilize ones rational mental faculties).
    In so far as the person was completely clear-minded (in this regard) whilst committing the crime, the subsequent memory-loss seems only relevant to the extent that it has also altered his "character". If he could reasonably be expected to do the exact same thing, under the same circumstances; memory-loss is only a contingency and not an apology.
    That is, at least, one possible argument.
    I believe brazilian law is pretty much the same on that subject. The real point here is: what kind of memory loss is that and is it possible for someone to completely have his mind erased? I don't think so...
    Last edited by Beeblebrox; 07-16-2008 at 22:25.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damwa View Post
    Obviously the example was odious, and obviously the man wouldn't be guaranteed to kill again - but if the part of his "character" (for lack of a better term) which enabled/spurred him to kill someone out of hurt pride is still intact; wouldn't it be unreasonable to let him off the hook, simply because he didn't remember the particular act?
    I don't know about the US, but in Danish law someone who couldn't remember a criminal act committed under some "altered state", would be off the hook, *if* the altered state was unforeseeable (getting drunk or stoned isn't an excuse), *if* the altered state entailed either psychosis (lacking ability to distinguish imagination from reality) or some manner of reduced mental capacity (lacking ability to utilize ones rational mental faculties).
    In so far as the person was completely clear-minded (in this regard) whilst committing the crime, the subsequent memory-loss seems only relevant to the extent that it has also altered his "character". If he could reasonably be expected to do the exact same thing, under the same circumstances; memory-loss is only a contingency and not an apology.
    That is, at least, one possible argument.
    It boils down to a different question then, exactly what makes us, "us"? Is it our memories, or some form of genetic programming that doesn't change and just "is"?


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  11. #26
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    I think losing all of your memories is punishment enough.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachrymose View Post
    to use that same analogy in conjunction w/ my above post, say you're hard drive has some physical damage to it so it fucks up or something. "reformatting" it won't do a thing b/c it isn't a software error.
    Well it's my scenario and I say he was clear-minded and has no mental disabilities besides permanent amnesia.

    Oh but yes, he is able to retain new information that arrives, new experiences and such, so in a real sense, it's like reformatting your hard drive, it will fix almost any issue unless it is hardware related.

    so.. i guess it boils down to whether the guy had some mental instability or not. i wouldn't say that ANY normal person would kill the adulterous bastard, but i do think it's somewhat of an extenuating circumstance, at least in this scenario. i guess i'm not really sure
    Yup, it isn't that easy to answer.


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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yantheman View Post
    I dont understand how this question is even debatable. Does his not remembering the act mean that his physical person did not actually kill the guy? No. Unless it could be proven that at the time of the murder he was not aware of his actions, as in, he was completely insane, then there is absolutely no reason for him to be let off.
    i think the major argument here is that you're jailing people to punish to negatively reinforce the criminal behavior. but if the guy "isn't the same person" because he doesn't even remember who he is, there may be no reason to punish him.

    if you think of it from an outsiders pov, you'll most likely say of course he should be put in jail. but imagine you woke up one day and someone said, "you're arrested for the rest of your life for murder." yet you have no idea what they're talking about. interesting idea.
    Last edited by Lachrymose; 07-16-2008 at 22:31.
    /thread
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    The Darkfall community has always been a source of good feedback, constructive criticism, and inspiration for the Darkfall developers and we'll keep it that way by doing away with the non-constructive elements.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krylas View Post
    I think losing all of your memories is punishment enough.
    I don't consider it punishment, because for it to be punishment, you'd have to be aware of what happened, to truly fathom it. If you lose all your memories, you'll know you lost your memories, but you won't know who you were. Now, that won't be easy, but it's not that bad... because you get to start over entirely. It's a positive and negative, which cancel each other out in equal forces.


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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    It boils down to a different question then, exactly what makes us, "us"? Is it our memories, or some form of genetic programming that doesn't change and just "is"?
    Indeed, this is a central question. I would, however, suggest that it is even *more* complicated than that. Memory isn't a singular, unified and simple aspect of mind. To say that we have "lost" a memory doesn't necessarily mean that the memory has disappeared from our minds; it may be that we are simply unable to *recall* it by conscious effort. Even *if* memory is "who we are", losing the ability to recall memory, does noes not necessarily mean that the memory is not neurologically present, having some effect or other on our mind in its entirety.

    Have you seen the movie Memento? They weren't making everything up, you know.

    Studies have been done on people who suffer from variations of amnesia. I once read of a small "experiment", which was done on a person suffering from anterograde amnesia. A doctor would come to his room every day and introduce himself; the patient was never able to recall seeing him before or knowing his (the doctor's) name. One day the doctor concealed a tack in his palm, causing the patient to withdraw his hand in pain when they shook, during the introduction. The next day, and every day henceforth, the patient (still recalling neither seeing the doctor, nor knowing his name) refused to shake hands with the doctor. He was, however, completely unable to offer any explanation as to why he felt this way.
    Last edited by Damwa; 07-16-2008 at 22:44.
    [..] the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

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