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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=GiMiK=- View Post
    WWII was the last era of greatness, of true men and women who knew what was worth fighting for. Individuals, who came together to fight against enslavement and tyranny.

    It was the last era of heroes.

    WW2 was like any other war. Follow the money and your heroes will be diminished to puppets.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damedius View Post
    You sure it wasn't just rich men making more money, watching poor people kill each other?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bissen View Post
    WW2 was like any other war. Follow the money and your heroes will be diminished to puppets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyldor Gwyvallt View Post
    It sounds like a great film....or a great tv serial!!!

    Problem is that while the "evil guys" change each time the "good guys" turn out to be always the same ones in these "films"...

    Yes....the evil ones are some times allowed to play the role of the good guys...but it all depends if their role on that "film" is to support the "ethernal good guys" ...
    .....................

    Now I admit that hollywood films are nice to see, and that propaganda might be difficult to shrug off, especially if it is a narrative embedded in our brains from 3 generations at school and by a complacent media, but history is another thing:...research, no dogmas, no labels...thank you for not flaming me...

    Regards
    HG
    So nazi are not that bad ....allies or fascist they are all same.... is this your point?

    And HG how about answer?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Greywind http://forums.darkfallonline.com/ima...s/viewpost.gif
    Here is problem with you, your "facts" so call logic and conclusions.
    Mail point is so call cover up of facts by no less but FDR himself........ where is the proof of it?
    Do you in good conscience (LOL) see "coded message" from PoW as proof solid enough to act on it?

    And base on this you declare all history as we know void and invalid? With notable but not surprising emphasis on Holocaust.
    Really?


    No answer?
    To busy to spam other lies?
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damedius View Post
    You sure it wasn't just rich men making more money, watching poor people kill each other?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bissen View Post
    WW2 was like any other war. Follow the money and your heroes will be diminished to puppets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyldor Gwyvallt View Post
    It sounds like a great film....or a great tv serial!!!

    Problem is that while the "evil guys" change each time the "good guys" turn out to be always the same ones in these "films"...

    Yes....the evil ones are some times allowed to play the role of the good guys...but it all depends if their role on that "film" is to support the "ethernal good guys" ...
    .....................

    Now I admit that hollywood films are nice to see, and that propaganda might be difficult to shrug off, especially if it is a narrative embedded in our brains from 3 generations at school and by a complacent media, but history is another thing:...research, no dogmas, no labels...thank you for not flaming me...

    Regards
    HG
    So nazi are not that bad ....allies or fascist they are all same.... is this your point?

    And HG how about answer?
    Here is problem with you, your "facts" so call logic and conclusions.
    Mail point is so call cover up of facts by no less but FDR himself........ where is the proof of it?
    Do you in good conscience (LOL) see "coded message" from PoW as proof solid enough to act on it?

    And base on this you declare all history as we know void and invalid? With notable but not surprising emphasis on Holocaust.
    Really?
    No answer?
    To busy to spam other lies?
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  4. #49
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    There was no good side on ww2, Axis, Allies and Comintern did all do some nasty stuff.
    Vordus Shadowlord, creation of evil and darkness of the Alfar land

    Hythero Toughleaf, protector of the Mirdain forest

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywind View Post
    So nazi are not that bad ....allies or fascist they are all same.... is this your point?

    And HG how about answer?


    No answer?
    To busy to spam other lies?
    1) You can morally (and from a PERSONAL prospective only) judge a "side" when all facts have been honestly reported, or at least no political agenda/winning side has methodically tainted the facts....this is obviously not yet the case for WWI, not to mention WWII....

    2) These blanket judgements of "evil" and "good" do not belong to historical studies, but rather to political parties, religious leaders or to affiliates of power/financial entities that spin their agendas.

    Whoever has lived in countries that have been under Fascism, Communism, NationalSocialism, Monarchy, Theocracy, etc (or any other ideology currently vilified by the systems that are currently running the west) knows that things are far from how their detractors like to depict them....just as I know very well that the Anglo-American system is far from being "evil".

    Regards
    HG
    "Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws" Mayer Amschel "Rothschild"

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywind View Post
    Here is problem with you, your "facts" so call logic and conclusions.
    Mail point is so call cover up of facts by no less but FDR himself........ where is the proof of it?
    Do you in good conscience (LOL) see "coded message" from PoW as proof solid enough to act on it?
    Quote Originally Posted by palo god View Post
    The fact that you're still in denial that this is decades old news is pretty hilarious.
    One bashes me because it was "old news"...while the other because "it never happened"....can you gentlemen first clarify it between yourselves?

    Regards
    HG
    "Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws" Mayer Amschel "Rothschild"

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyldor Gwyvallt View Post
    One bashes me because it was "old news"...while the other because "it never happened"....can you gentlemen first clarify it between yourselves?

    Regards
    HG
    No. We dont need to "clarify it between yourselves". Unlike your cell (you/Bissen/Dame etc) "we" dont have central command.
    I dont see anyone who deny fact of massacre of Polish elite by soviets.
    Yes it is old news (massacre)
    Yes it is old news (pragmatism of west)
    Nobody bash (as I see) but simply point out on that you attempting spin old news as something new and turning point in history of WW2

    I ask you direct question on subject:
    Article (and you on this forum) accusing FDR (no less) in cover up. Where the proof?
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  8. #53

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    "Silence speaks volumes"
    Is not it HG?
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  9. #54
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    They're accusing FDR's administration.

    Regardless, I don't think that's fair to call this article old news when it's apparent it's not.

    The information you're looking for would reside somewhere associated with this:

    " In September 2011, the National Archives responded to a letter to President Barack Obama by Representative Marcy Kaptur and Representative Daniel Lipinski requesting the identification, declassification and public release of all records of permanent value in the custody of the US Government relating to the events at Katyn. The National Archives via the National Declassification Center subsequently made it a priority to process and declassify all known documents related not only to the initial events of the 1940s but also to the Madden Committee and the ongoing American response. This special effort has led to the declassification of over a thousand pages not previously released to the public, and the launch of a project to highlight Katyn material declassified by the National Archives over the previous few decades."


    If there's new information that the american government would help to cover-up a known war crime by an allied country, we have a right to know that and for it to be learned and discussed.

    Thinking about it, it's disgusting that you would try to diminish the severity of this action.
    Last edited by Nunz; 09-21-2012 at 19:18.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    They're accusing FDR's administration
    "It has long been believed that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt did not want to question the version of events put out by Stalin"
    Look like personal accusation.
    Note. in this quote FDR just "did not want to question" but over all accusation by article and affirmative by HG - "cover up" See difference?

    Again what this article tell us that we did not know before?
    Fact of Katyn massacre?
    Fact that West at list suspect Soviets?
    Fact that USA/UK choose less evil?
    Fact that USA/UK did want to stir trouble in middle of war?

    Nunz,
    Do you support HG conclusion - too many lies still cover up and wrongly blamed on poor innocent nazi?
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywind View Post
    "It has long been believed that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt did not want to question the version of events put out by Stalin"
    Look like personal accusation.
    Note. in this quote FDR just "did not want to question" but over all accusation by article and affirmative by HG - "cover up" See difference?

    Again what this article tell us that we did not know before?
    Fact of Katyn massacre?
    Fact that West at list suspect Soviets?
    Fact that USA/UK choose less evil?
    Fact that USA/UK did want to stir trouble in middle of war?

    Nunz,
    Do you support HG conclusion - too many lies still cover up and wrongly blamed on poor innocent nazi?
    In general, history is distorted and I think that's wrong. We're presented with general facts of the Nazi party and they turn out to only barely touch on fact or twist fact. We have to be allowed to learn the true history of Nazi Germany and fascism if we're to stop it from happening again.

    And again, you're trying to down play this. If these newly released documents could tie FDR and his administration to the covering up of war crimes, I think that's an important conversation. Much more important than just calling it "pragmatism".

    Was Soviet Russia even really the lesser of two evils, *during the war? Body count and war crimes may say 'no'.

    And if they are the lesser of two evils, what made them the lesser of two evils?



    *STRONG EDIT: Changed during this situation to during the war*
    Last edited by Nunz; 09-21-2012 at 20:42.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    In general, history is distorted and I think that's wrong.
    Really.... yeah there are no honest historians all history written by winners
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    We're presented with general facts of the Nazi party and they turn out to only barely touch on fact or twist fact. We have to be allowed to learn the true history of Nazi Germany and fascism if we're to stop it from happening again.
    I'm afraid to ask what you consider to be "true"
    Are we mislead about "master race"? Are we mislead about Christal night? Are we mislead about deliberate extermination of gypsies, gays?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    And again, you're trying to down play this. If these newly released documents could tie FDR and his administration to the covering up of war crimes, I think that's an important conversation. Much more important than just calling it "pragmatism".
    IF
    And you are trying to over play it. In fact I dont see ANY NEW FACTS in this article compare to "Madden Committee" in 1952
    What exactly means "cover up"? Know for sure beyond reasonable doubts and help to destroy evidence (IMHO) or just suspect or believe without any material evidence = cover up
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    Was Soviet Russia even really the lesser of two evils, *during the war? Body count and war crimes may say 'no'.

    And if they are the lesser of two evils, what made them the lesser of two evils?
    IMHO communism/socialism is unpractical but not evil theory (socialism in Scandinavia is not that bad) but nazi fundamentally evil with "master race" and "fee of chimera called conscience" moral.... inherently bad.
    Yes communism had been an expansionism in ideology and in (practice under Stalin they expend by force) but it is not mandatory practice. It rather would expend peacefully by theory. In fact without Stalin Soviets improved significantly and in the end they reformed under Gorbachev. See?
    Nazi ubermensch had to conquest by force or what the point? Right?
    See difference? Hitler or no Hitler ubermensch has an obligation to be ubermensch and Hitler or no Hitler ubermensch has to rule over lesser humans and exterminate underhuman or he is no ubermensch. See? Inherently evil
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywind View Post
    Really.... yeah there are no honest historians all history written by winners

    I'm afraid to ask what you consider to be "true"
    Are we mislead about "master race"? Are we mislead about Christal night? Are we mislead about deliberate extermination of gypsies, gays?

    IF
    And you are trying to over play it. In fact I dont see ANY NEW FACTS in this article compare to "Madden Committee" in 1952
    What exactly means "cover up"? Know for sure beyond reasonable doubts and help to destroy evidence (IMHO) or just suspect or believe without any material evidence = cover up

    IMHO communism/socialism is unpractical but not evil theory (socialism in Scandinavia is not that bad) but nazi fundamentally evil with "master race" and "fee of chimera called conscience" moral.... inherently bad.
    Yes communism had been an expansionism in ideology and in (practice under Stalin they expend by force) but it is not mandatory practice. It rather would expend peacefully by theory. In fact without Stalin Soviets improved significantly and in the end they reformed under Gorbachev. See?
    Nazi ubermensch had to conquest by force or what the point? Right?
    See difference? Hitler or no Hitler ubermensch has an obligation to be ubermensch and Hitler or no Hitler ubermensch has to rule over lesser humans and exterminate underhuman or he is no ubermensch. See? Inherently evil
    Sure, you can recite some bullshit pamphlet but statistically during WWII who killed more people that they felt couldn't help in their cause? Germany or Russia?

    And if you don't agree with the communist doctrine, what happens to you? Are you imprisoned and eliminated?

    So what do we judge people by? Words or acts?

    And from what the article says, there were thousands of new documents released on this subject. And it's saying that new information is available in those documents. I haven't looked into them. I'm putting a little faith into the article and author.
    Last edited by Nunz; 09-21-2012 at 22:01.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    Sure, you can recite some bullshit pamphlet but statistically during WWII who killed more people that they felt couldn't help in their cause? Germany or Russia?

    And if you don't agree with the communist doctrine, what happens to you? Are you imprisoned and eliminated?
    Depends...
    Under Stalin yes. Even for a smallest dissent, on any suspicion.
    After Stalin under Khrushchev, Breznev there were psychiatric clinics, exile, yeah prisons. On much lesser scale. Under Andropove more harsh punishments and fear of return to mass repression. Under Gorbachev glasnost and perestroica.
    Point is .... Communism is not inherently evil (IMHO) it was under Stalin but not under Gorbachev. See? Communism is inherently unpractical. See?
    Fascism is inherently evil.
    Hence it made sense to choose Soviets as lesser evil and in fact it was right choice. Soviet leaders did not rash to hot war and in the end change the ways. See? It is a fact. But with nazi it did not work and that's the fact. All peacemaking of Chamberlain was for nothing. You can't make a deal with ubermensch (unless you agree to be slave) See?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    So what do we judge people by? Words or acts?
    Both
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
    And from what the article says, there were thousands of new documents released on this subject. And it's saying that new information is available in those documents. I haven't looked into them. I'm putting a little faith into the article and author.
    Take a look at title "US covered up..." like its all matter of fact. Case proven and send to archive.
    Greywind UO/DAoC/SB/L2/WoW/DFO

  15. #60
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    Can you define fascism for me, please?


    And again, I would assume in those thousands of released documents there's some sort of evidence. But I'm more interested in this conversation about what makes communism unpractical but fascism is inherently evil.



    I'd really like to know where you get these senseless ideas? In the end, soviet changed their ways? Where do you get this idea from?

    Nazis initiated the war. Other than that, there's nothing that separates the Nazi state from the Russian state. Russian state was just as barbaric as the Nazi state. And more evidence is coming out to prove that.
    Last edited by Nunz; 09-21-2012 at 22:49.

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