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  1. #46
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    ITT: uneducated people thinking they're educated because they vote left wing thinking uneducated people vote republican when uneducated people are generally with the left.
    Did i ever tell you the definition of "insanity"?

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    I'm just wondering. If the "higher order thinking" really is just class to challange students beliefs politically, religiously, socially, etc. Then nobody should be scared of it. Because everybody thinks their world view is the "right one".
    Theres no such thing as an entire class that challenges students beliefs, without instilling another belief. You would be giving someone the power to parent our children and instill their own values. Thats fucking scary. There should NEVER be a mandated class that takes values and beliefs you give to your children, and attempts to rip them apart. It seriously sounds like a dystopian novel.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroCool View Post
    Theres no such thing as an entire class that challenges students beliefs, without instilling another belief. You would be giving someone the power to parent our children and instill their own values. Thats fucking scary. There should NEVER be a mandated class that takes values and beliefs you give to your children, and attempts to rip them apart. It seriously sounds like a dystopian novel.
    Do you really think that? I don't see why you think it's impossible. What about a class that debates a different topic each week, religion then politics, etc. And the teacher stays out of it for the most part. You go around the class and the students say what they think and the other students challange it? People already have that power. That's like. Unless you keep your children locked in a basement they will always be influenced by the outside world my mother (like a lot I'd guess) is religious. I'm not. I was influnced by the outside world. Are you saying it doesn't happen already?

    No there shouldn't. But why shouldn't there be a class where kids debate with each other and told "ok if you believe in that. Prove it, argue your point". Why is that dystopian? My idea of dystopian is a world where no one is ever challanged or question. That is fucking scary. Aboslute infalibility? Fuck that. Question everything.
    Last edited by MattMystrieo; 06-30-2012 at 14:49.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    I thought it explained itself. Would you disagree with the notion of never questioning always obeying. always accepting some people are unfallible doesn't lead to tyrenny?
    I figured you had taken my statement out of context in order to present a strawman attack. I never put forth the notion that you describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    I also don't see why you are so against this. Is this just an ideological thing with you? Where you don't want teachers (because they are employed by the state) to say anything to your kids?
    Against what exactly? Please be specific b/c you are tending to misrepresent my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    I honestly can't see why anybody but religious extremists would be against a kind of "critical thinking" class. Where childrens views are asked and they debate with other kids and the teacher.
    I'm not religious at all. I teach my kids my morals and values. School teaches math, science, and grammar. And once again, you fail to understand simple English. I'm not against a critical thinking class. I'm against what public schools label critical thinking classes or programs. If they truly wanted kids to learn critical thinking then they should start w/ logic and that should not be introduced prior to high school. Even if the kids could handle it earlier, the schools can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    Small anacdote here (I know everyone on the internet has one or two that always prove their point.. But this genuinley happened). I used to do politics at A-Level. Don't know what the US equivalent is. But I had a teacher who always challanged our views (debate was a big part of the class), and I actually had some views changed because of infomation he gave me and the talks we had. Example being I totally changed my opinion on the House of Lords (I said what it was during the Brit' Monarchy debate), I had a total change of opinion. Where as other views of mine were strengthend through debate and me having to look up statistics and what have you. Do you not think that was a good thing? If he never challanged me and argued I would never have been challanged until much later in life. Him challanging me made me more intelligent. And better at questioning what I thought I knew.
    At what age? What makes you so sure you arrived at your new conclusions and or reinforced your old ones in these debates based on true critical thinking and analysis?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMystrieo View Post
    Why would you be so against a critical thinking class? Do you really think nobody ever should interfear with the way a child is raised? Or not even that, do you think nobody should ever try to give a child tools and experiance to question their parents beliefs?
    Again, as I stated numerous times, critical thinking is learned as a part of a typical education curriculum of the 3 R's. And logic is a pre-req to true critical thinking in its 'scientific' form; logic is never taught.

    As to interfering, no, nobody should ever interfere w/ the raising of a child based on beliefs, morals, and values. The tools necessary are in the 3 R's. There is never a need for school to 'teach' kids to question their parents.

    EDIT - also, Matt, just to be clear, that DARE brainwashing starts at age 10 where they start teaching kids that drinking is bad and people who drink are bad. They start teaching kids that school, peers, <anything other than family> should be consulted for decision-making etc. You have to understand the context. I went to a private high school modeled after the English public schools; we also debated lots of shit. Gov't schools here don't present or allow for true debate from what I have seen. It's all about the age and the approach used here - it's definitely more indoctrination than critical thinking. They don't want to give you tools to question and think; they seek to make you change your mind, to be assimilated by the collective.
    Last edited by StainlessSteelRat; 06-30-2012 at 15:28.
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    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    So b/c it has a nice shiny name like "Critical Thinking" you assume it's "good"?

    Have you ever audited a Critical Thinking class in a Texas public school?
    A critical thinking class? Wtf is a critical thinking class? When I was in high school, critical thinking was figuring out how to smoke weed out of an apple in the boys bathroom without getting caught.

    Funny thing is now I'm an engineer that makes lots of money. The things smoking pot can teach you.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    I'm against what public schools label critical thinking classes or programs.
    Can you give some examples of these 'deceitful' classes?
    -Kael Trighton-

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova88 View Post
    Can you give some examples of these 'deceitful' classes?
    Gave you one already: DARE

    And like I said, they aren't always distinct classes. Any teacher in any class has ample opportunity (not very likely in a math class however) to introduce current events in an attempt to indoctrinate the kids under the guise of "critical thinking".

    I ask every day what went on in school so I can correct all the bullshit immediately.
    Last edited by StainlessSteelRat; 06-30-2012 at 21:16.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

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  9. #54
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    I love stephen colbert, saw that today too

  10. #55
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    The ultra-right doesn't want people to think. They want people to either follow them, or buy their shit.
    Last edited by Tenebrion; 07-18-2012 at 23:43.

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  11. #56
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    He's a comedian making jokes by exaggerating/slightly misrepresenting the issue. There's nothing to add, I've addressed it all already.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

  12. #57

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    I do not think they government should be stepping in and telling teachers which opinions to express and which not to. You know i am very much opposed to controlling classroom education opinions wise. You know what yes teachers are going to present and preach different views to children that are different from the students parents and its a good thing.

    America is too damn uptight with parents rights over childrens rights.

    And yes school teaching kids to question there parents is a good thing. Teaching kids to question anything is a good thing. Indoctrination by parents is just as wrong as indoctrination by the state.

    From what i am reading about HOTS its very similar to Socratic teaching methods which use discussion. These are normally very good teaching methods for acquisition sake. Martha Collins used them a shitload and she is the republican dream teacher so i am slightly confused about what they are harping on about.
    Last edited by Wufiavelli; 07-20-2012 at 20:30.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wufiavelli View Post
    I do not think they government should be stepping in and telling teachers which opinions to express and which not to. You know i am very much opposed to controlling classroom education opinions wise. You know what yes teachers are going to present and preach different views to children that are different from the students parents and its a good thing.

    America is too damn uptight with parents rights over childrens rights.

    And yes school teaching kids to question there parents is a good thing. Teaching kids to question anything is a good thing. Indoctrination by parents is just as wrong as indoctrination by the state.
    So you are opting for state indoctrination. I opt for parent. Society is a lot more diversified that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wufiavelli View Post
    From what i am reading about HOTS its very similar to Socratic teaching methods which use discussion. These are normally very good teaching methods for acquisition sake. Martha Collins used them a shitload and she is the republican dream teacher so i am slightly confused about what they are harping on about.
    Most teachers aren't capable or are too baised as I already pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

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