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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    You have to plan for inflation with your pension. Social security scales with inflation.
    http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/latestCOLA.html

    By your own argument in favor of a gold standard, you can get it at any time by merely using your currency to purchase gold. It's really that simple. You can be on any standard you want merely by converting your currency to whatever the fuck standard you want.
    Social security will be bankrupt by the time my generation tries to cash in on it, so that's a moot point. But, again, it only adjusts for what the government says the inflation rate is. People are struggling, it's that simple.

    You should not have to plan for inflation, is the point. Of course you can.. it just makes it harder for normal people to retire, a major penalty. Inflation literally means people have to work months, possibly years longer just to retire, all so the government can deflate its own absurd debt. Fuck that.

    People that save in currency are not using it for the intended purpose. If you want to use something that it's not designed for, you should have a penalty. There's no way to achieve 0 inflation and 0 deflation. Between the two, inflation is much better for anyone that's not rich as fuck. You have no idea what is reasonable because you are ignorant.
    Nope, I just live in the real world, and have seen what inflation does, experiencing it everyday.

    We need people to save, so they can invest real capital, not credit, into things, businesses, jobs, or just buying more expensive things. When someone saves, they will eventually spend that money usually, even if only when they retire. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's not "against it's intended use".


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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    Social security will be bankrupt by the time my generation tries to cash in on it, so that's a moot point. But, again, it only adjusts for what the government says the inflation rate is. People are struggling, it's that simple.

    You should not have to plan for inflation, is the point. Of course you can.. it just makes it harder for normal people to retire, a major penalty. Inflation literally means people have to work months, possibly years longer just to retire, all so the government can deflate its own absurd debt. Fuck that.
    You keep saying people are struggling. You have failed to attribute this to inflation and have failed to explain why the inflation rate is false.

    "Normal people". Inflation means they have a job at all, it means they are not crushed under the burdens of their debts, it means they have a reliable source of income; that they don't get their wages cut or fired because of deflation.

    Nope, I just live in the real world, and have seen what inflation does, experiencing it everyday.

    We need people to save, so they can invest real capital, not credit, into things, businesses, jobs, or just buying more expensive things. When someone saves, they will eventually spend that money usually, even if only when they retire. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's not "against it's intended use".
    You live in a bubble in which information cannot penetrate. You manage to falsely attribute economic hardship to inflation. The rest of us educated folks apparently don't live in the real world; an imaginary world constructed of fact and science. It truly cannot compete with your world of delusional paranoia.
    Last edited by PirateGlen; 04-13-2012 at 00:07.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    You keep saying people are struggling. You have failed to attribute this to inflation and have failed to explain why the inflation rate is false.

    "Normal people". Inflation means they have a job at all, it means they are not crushed under the burdens of their debts, it means they have a reliable source of income; that they don't get their wages cut or fired because of deflation.
    Well, you can choose to believe the prices listed in the CPI are accurately and fairly represented. It may or may not be true, since I don't live in the states anymore I can't be a judge of that.

    However, going by the CPI numbers in February, minimum wage increases do not come even close to accounting for inflation of what really matters, such as health insurance, groceries for food, clothes and gasoline.

    You live in a bubble in which information cannot penetrate. You manage to falsely attribute economic hardship to inflation. The rest of us educated folks apparently don't live in the real world; an imaginary world constructed of fact and science. It truly cannot compete with your world of delusional paranoia.
    Economic hardship is not solely due to inflation but it plays a large part, and it's beyond me how you can't recognize how much it hurts poor people, retired people and yes, people who save currency.


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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    Well, you can choose to believe the prices listed in the CPI are accurately and fairly represented. It may or may not be true, since I don't live in the states anymore I can't be a judge of that.

    However, going by the CPI numbers in February, minimum wage increases do not come even close to accounting for inflation of what really matters, such as health insurance, groceries for food, clothes and gasoline.
    Oh good. It took only ten years to move you from "They're Lying!" to... "I don't know." At least you've come to terms when your ignorance and that's the first step.

    Minimum wage isn't a living wage. It's the absolute minimum a company is allowed to pay someone. You don't need to convince me that the minimum wage does not solve people's fundamental economic needs. Yet it is ironic that you would criticize it given that you're opposed to government welfare.


    Economic hardship is not solely due to inflation but it plays a large part, and it's beyond me how you can't recognize how much it hurts poor people, retired people and yes, people who save currency.
    It's beyond me why you think you have a valid opinion of the subject despite your woeful economic ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    Oh good. It took only ten years to move you from "They're Lying!" to... "I don't know." At least you've come to terms when your ignorance and that's the first step.

    Minimum wage isn't a living wage. It's the absolute minimum a company is allowed to pay someone. You don't need to convince me that the minimum wage does not solve people's fundamental economic needs. Yet it is ironic that you would criticize it given that you're opposed to government welfare.
    I never said it was certain they were lying, I said I was apprehensive and cautious of the statistics spewed out. They very well may be accurate, I don't know. That's always been what I was saying. No one really knows besides those who do the calculates and take the samples themselves, and since I'm not in the states, I can't really attest to how food and other things cost from a personal experience basis.

    Minimum wage is a livable wage. In the past, people worked minimum wage while putting themselves through college, because that was actually possible. Was it easy? Nope. But it was possible.

    I completely oppose minimum wage, I was merely addressing it now because inflation is distorting everything else, and it exists. Forcing companies to pay their employees a specific amount either means their goods and services will cost more, or they will hire less people. So it's not a good thing. But it does exist, so for now, I comment on it. The increases to minimum wage do not account for inflation, nor do raises because of the horrific shape of the economy, and governmental red tape making it very hard to employ people even at minimum wage. Yet we have inflation. So that's fucked up.

    Poor people are not earning what they need to, to keep up with the rising costs of the basics of life. I think we can, at least, agree on this. Yes?

    It's beyond me why you think you have a valid opinion of the subject despite your woeful economic ignorance.
    I've been debating with you for weeks. Neither of us is ignorant, we have different opinions on what we see and observe. You seem to think that all educated people will ultimately agree on what should be done for the economy. That's a preposterous notion.
    Last edited by Death's Chill; 04-13-2012 at 01:03.


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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    I never said it was certain they were lying, I said I was apprehensive and cautious of the statistics spewed out. They very well may be accurate, I don't know. That's always been what I was saying. No one really knows besides those who do the calculates and take the samples themselves, and since I'm not in the states, I can't really attest to how food and other things cost from a personal experience basis.

    Minimum wage is a livable wage. In the past, people worked minimum wage while putting themselves through college, because that was actually possible. Was it easy? Nope. But it was possible.

    I completely oppose minimum wage, I was merely addressing it now because inflation is distorting everything else, and it exists. Forcing companies to pay their employees a specific amount either means their goods and services will cost more, or they will hire less people. So it's not a good thing. But it does exist, so for now, I comment on it. The increases to minimum wage do not account for inflation, nor do raises because of the horrific shape of the economy, and governmental red tape making it very hard to employ people even at minimum wage. Yet we have inflation. So that's fucked up.

    Poor people are not earning what they need to, to keep up with the rising costs of the basics of life. I think we can, at least, agree on this. Yes?
    It's vague concepts like "governmental red tape" that proves to me you don't know what you're talking about. You're regurgitating campaign platitudes.

    Based on conservative economics they should pay you whatever they want. Yet by your own admission they would never give you a raise and would fire you for asking.

    Poor people's quality of life has nothing to do with inflation.


    I've been debating with you for weeks. Neither of us is ignorant, we have different opinions on what we see and observe. You seem to think that all educated people will ultimately agree on what should be done for the economy. That's a preposterous notion.
    No. I've been forced to educate you for weeks without success. It's has nothing to do with educated people agreeing. You struggle to understand the basics. That's why I say you are ignorant: because you clearly don't know enough about the subject yet you hold strong opinions of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

  7. #97

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    Well, the arguments go back and forth. I'll just say that if you think electronic voting isn't rigged, nothing bad about you, it's just the way the world goes around I guess...
    http://i.imgur.com/vSFvJ.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    It's vague concepts like "governmental red tape" that proves to me you don't know what you're talking about. You're regurgitating campaign platitudes.

    Based on conservative economics they should pay you whatever they want. Yet by your own admission they would never give you a raise and would fire you for asking.

    Poor people's quality of life has nothing to do with inflation.]
    In a healthy economy, they would pay me what they deemed appropriate, and if that was insufficient, I would go somewhere else. Thus exercising my power. In a bad economy, this doesn't work, because the odds are you don't have a job to begin with and if you do, of course you're not going to gamble with it.

    No. I've been forced to educate you for weeks without success. It's has nothing to do with educated people agreeing. You struggle to understand the basics. That's why I say you are ignorant: because you clearly don't know enough about the subject yet you hold strong opinions of it.
    Heh, it's amazing how arrogant and condescending you are. You "try to educate me?" Nope. We have a discussion and disagree. That doesn't make you right, nor does it for me. Hence why we still continue to argue. I fear we may never agree.

    I'll tell you this much though, if after a decade nothing serious & extreme happens in the USA, I will gladly pronounce myself completely wrong. Care to make the same statement?
    Last edited by Death's Chill; 04-13-2012 at 03:33.


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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    In a healthy economy, they would pay me what they deemed appropriate, and if that was insufficient, I would go somewhere else. Thus exercising my power. In a bad economy, this doesn't work, because the odds are you don't have a job to begin with and if you do, of course you're not going to gamble with it.
    Correct. Now you just need to learn that healthy and unhealthy economies occur regardless of government's policy on inflation. Without inflation, your job is much more likely to cut your pay or lay you off because of economic circumstance.

    Inflation helps to diffuse that deflationary spiral where people are laid off because companies aren't making enough, and then more people get laid off because the people who got laid off are no longer able to participate in the economy.



    Heh, it's amazing how arrogant and condescending you are. You "try to educate me?" Nope. We have a discussion and disagree. That doesn't make you right, nor does it for me. Hence why we still continue to argue. I fear we may never agree.

    I'll tell you this much though, if after a decade nothing serious & extreme happens in the USA, I will gladly pronounce myself completely wrong. Care to make the same statement?
    It's only a discussion if you had even close to a similar degree of information. I give you facts and you lay out platitudes. I would love nothing more than for you to offer something of substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    Correct. Now you just need to learn that healthy and unhealthy economies occur regardless of government's policy on inflation. Without inflation, your job is much more likely to cut your pay or lay you off because of economic circumstance.

    Inflation helps to diffuse that deflationary spiral where people are laid off because companies aren't making enough, and then more people get laid off because the people who got laid off are no longer able to participate in the economy.
    If deflation occurs, people will not be laid off, because all money increases in value. So they would reduce how much they paid their employees, and how much the prices of items are. Deflation is fine because it adjusts for everyone on the bottom. Inflation normally does not.

    Although I will say this, inflation in a healthy economy is not that bad, especially if interest rates are not kept are artificially low levels.

    It's only a discussion if you had even close to a similar degree of information. I give you facts and you lay out platitudes. I would love nothing more than for you to offer something of substance.
    I offer observation, logical deduction and reasoning. Basically, why something is. All you do it say this is the case, without explaining it. I care more to know how something is, than seeing "proof" that it is.


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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    If deflation occurs, people will not be laid off, because all money increases in value. So they would reduce how much they paid their employees, and how much the prices of items are. Deflation is fine because it adjusts for everyone on the bottom. Inflation normally does not.

    Although I will say this, inflation in a healthy economy is not that bad, especially if interest rates are not kept are artificially low levels.
    Some will have their wages reduced and some will be laid off. It depends on the economic circumstances. Even if the wages are only reduced this will still produce an aggregate decrease in demand because even if real wages do not decrease, a nominal decrease in wages gives the appearance and possible truth to save rather than spend. This will reinforce the situation because as people save instead of spend there is less money in circulation and then even more deflation occurs. Less people are buying what their business is selling and nominal reduction in wages turns into real reduction in wages because there is a real reduction in aggregate demand as people save.

    This deflation has thus caused what was originally only a reduction in nominal wages but the same in real wages to become a real reduction in wages.

    Inflationary policy is part of what keeps people spending, and it why people keep spending on the goods that you are producing as part of your job.

    (This is a perfect example where I try to educate you unsuccessfully about economics)


    I offer observation, logical deduction and reasoning. Basically, why something is. All you do it say this is the case, without explaining it. I care more to know how something is, than seeing "proof" that it is.
    Unfortunately you have awful reasoning. So while your reasoning, like the reasoning of many austrians is internally consistent, it does not reflect the real world. You don't want evidence of the world, you want to just think internally about the world rather than check the world to see if your thoughts are accurate. Even more evidence that your opinions are religious rather than scientific.
    Last edited by PirateGlen; 04-13-2012 at 23:16.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    Some will have their wages reduced and some will be laid off. It depends on the economic circumstances. Even if the wages are only reduced this will still produce an aggregate decrease in demand because even if real wages do not decrease, a nominal decrease in wages gives the appearance and possible truth to save rather than spend. This will reinforce the situation because as people save instead of spend there is less money in circulation and then even more deflation occurs. Less people are buying what their business is selling and nominal reduction in wages turns into real reduction in wages because there is a real reduction in aggregate demand as people save.

    This deflation has thus caused what was originally only a reduction in nominal wages but the same in real wages to become a real reduction in wages.

    Inflationary policy is part of what keeps people spending, and it why people keep spending on the goods that you are producing as part of your job.

    (This is a perfect example where I try to educate you unsuccessfully about economics)
    Deflation is not a positive thing in the short term... on this I entirely agree with you. The difference between it and inflation, is in the long-run it is not so bad. Deflation would cause a temporary recession as people save more. Their wages may be cut even further because as you point out, less people will be spending which means less money for businesses. But they will still save. And, eventually, as more people amass a fair level of savings, they will go out and use it to further consume, or invest back into the country by launching their own businesses and the like.

    So, it's bad in the short-term, but in the long run things stabilize. Inflation is the opposite. In the short term, it can be a positive, but in the long run the compounding effect hurts poor people more if interest rates are kept artificially low.

    Unfortunately you have awful reasoning. So while your reasoning, like the reasoning of many austrians is internally consistent, it does not reflect the real world. You don't want evidence of the world, you want to just think internally about the world rather than check the world to see if your thoughts are accurate. Even more evidence that your opinions are religious rather than scientific.
    Uh, it's the exact opposite. All evidence (people) I see, tens of thousands of people I talk to or read comments about in every facet you can imagine complain about rising costs of everything pertinent to their survival. Gas, Clothes, medical costs, food, you name it. I've already showed you how things are getting worse. More people are unemployed (and those figures don't even count people working part-time or who have given up looking for work), far more people on food stamps, we're still at war with prospects for more. The deficit is 1.5 trillion dollars which is, in that alone, utterly insane and unsustainable (unless of course we keep printing money to dilute it).

    There's no flaw in that logic. What's happening in the USA is not sustainable, and people are already hurting and hurting bad. But I believe this is just the start.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    Deflation is not a positive thing in the short term... on this I entirely agree with you. The difference between it and inflation, is in the long-run it is not so bad. Deflation would cause a temporary recession as people save more. Their wages may be cut even further because as you point out, less people will be spending which means less money for businesses. But they will still save. And, eventually, as more people amass a fair level of savings, they will go out and use it to further consume, or invest back into the country by launching their own businesses and the like.

    So, it's bad in the short-term, but in the long run things stabilize. Inflation is the opposite. In the short term, it can be a positive, but in the long run the compounding effect hurts poor people more if interest rates are kept artificially low.
    Deflation is bad ever. Even when weighing deflation against the long term, you have economic stagnation which is acts as an initial hardship that can last for years all to satisfy your religious economic preferences, not because of any practical economic necessity or even something that makes the economy better in any real way.

    Your ideas about prospective savings fail when you actually read the entirety of my explanation. They will find it much more difficult to save because they're getting paid less or laid off, and their investments will similarly flounder because it's a lot harder for their small business to succeed when people are saving instead of spending. It's like you're still struggling with the concept of understanding the economy as a cycle and not linear.

    In the long run, things don't become more stable. It's a constant swap between high inflation and high deflation as demonstrated by history. Deflation is bad both in short term and in the long term. There is no long-term scenario in which deflation is better except for the rich.


    Uh, it's the exact opposite. All evidence (people) I see, tens of thousands of people I talk to or read comments about in every facet you can imagine complain about rising costs of everything pertinent to their survival. Gas, Clothes, medical costs, food, you name it. I've already showed you how things are getting worse. More people are unemployed (and those figures don't even count people working part-time or who have given up looking for work), far more people on food stamps, we're still at war with prospects for more. The deficit is 1.5 trillion dollars which is, in that alone, utterly insane and unsustainable (unless of course we keep printing money to dilute it).

    There's no flaw in that logic. What's happening in the USA is not sustainable, and people are already hurting and hurting bad. But I believe this is just the start.
    What you're describing, as I've pointed out before, is based on economic hardship of a recession. There's no relationship between this and inflation and your proposal would make the situation worse and last longer. Inflation is the best option for trying to recover the economy. The gaping hole in your logic is the connection between economic hardship and inflation as the cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    Deflation is bad ever. Even when weighing deflation against the long term, you have economic stagnation which is acts as an initial hardship that can last for years all to satisfy your religious economic preferences, not because of any practical economic necessity or even something that makes the economy better in any real way.

    Your ideas about prospective savings fail when you actually read the entirety of my explanation. They will find it much more difficult to save because they're getting paid less or laid off, and their investments will similarly flounder because it's a lot harder for their small business to succeed when people are saving instead of spending. It's like you're still struggling with the concept of understanding the economy as a cycle and not linear.

    In the long run, things don't become more stable. It's a constant swap between high inflation and high deflation as demonstrated by history. Deflation is bad both in short term and in the long term. There is no long-term scenario in which deflation is better except for the rich.

    What you're describing, as I've pointed out before, is based on economic hardship of a recession. There's no relationship between this and inflation and your proposal would make the situation worse and last longer. Inflation is the best option for trying to recover the economy. The gaping hole in your logic is the connection between economic hardship and inflation as the cause.
    They will be able to save less money, but that money will constantly increase in value. Not only will they get interest from having money in the bank, but that money in itself will increase in purchasing power. While yes, this will cause some inflation when people hit a safe point in savings and a lot more people end up spending more money, it's better than living beyond your means and having inflation that, as shown now, hurts the poor and middle class.

    Gold and silver buy more oil than they did 50 years ago. Oil is getting cheaper, it's just paper money that is losing purchasing power. Inflation, through endlessly printing money.

    Like I said before, if nothing happens within the next few years, I will happily admit that I was wrong.
    Last edited by Death's Chill; 04-14-2012 at 00:21.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    They will be able to save less money, but that money will constantly increase in value. Not only will they get interest from having money in the bank, but that money in itself will increase in purchasing power. While yes, this will cause some inflation when people hit a safe point in savings and a lot more people end up spending more money, it's better than living beyond your means and having inflation that, as shown now, hurts the poor and middle class.
    Wow. You really don't know shit. You appear to have zero clue as to where the interest on savings accounts come from. The reason you get interest from banks is because they are able to loan it out based on fractional reserve (a system you appear to be opposed to). In addition, this interest and fractional reserve are based on the very debts you are opposed to people taking and would be in most instances financially incapable of making because of the crushing debt that deflation and interest payments would demand of them.

    People are not "living beyond their means" simply because they acquire debt, they are investing with the understanding that they will be obligated to make interest payments. They will find this process far more difficult to do when they are crushed by the ever expanding value of their debt and growing incapable of repaying that debt specifically because their business will flounder in the debt spiral you prefer.

    It hasn't been shown that inflation hurts the poor and middle class. It hurts as much as any paycut in real wages hurts a person if the people are not getting wages that match inflation. The same scenario could/would occur regardless of inflation because economic circumstance demands some industries lower wages to levels that they are able to pay.


    Gold and silver buy more oil than they did 50 years ago. Oil is getting cheaper, it's just paper money that is losing purchasing power. Inflation, through endlessly printing money.

    Like I said before, if nothing happens within the next few years, I will happily admit that I was wrong.
    And shiny rocks have remained relatively finite. Calling it paper money is a meaningless platitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

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