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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    What does 'just do X' mean? You present it like some nefarious enterprise. Criminal acts are still criminal acts.......... According to your own post, they would be in jail if it weren't for gov't interfering on their behalf. If they 'just did X', they would just be in jail.....

    Who cares about those highlights? They don't 'own' the movement. From your own post:

    The vast majority of tea partiers are middle-class Americans with little or no experience in political organizing.

    So whatever organizing and training and other bullshit you think they may be up to, they are a small minority and they are not in control of the movement.
    Yea they're herded like sheep by people who are trained, funded, and sent out with
    rhetoric designed to appeal to the American spirit of individualism and fear of communism.
    As for as 'just do "x"'. The justice department has refused to prosecute multiple times when crimes were committed. And they've faced numerous criminal charges despite buying off politicians.

    Who would be there to investigate when private business is or isn't breaking the law, without government? What authority could do that?

    Koch Industries — in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East — has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the United States identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism.

    Internal company documents show that the company made those sales through foreign subsidiaries, thwarting a U.S. trade ban. Koch Industries units have also rigged prices with competitors, lied to regulators and repeatedly run afoul of environmental regulations, resulting in five criminal convictions since 1999 in the United States and Canada.

    From 1999 through 2003, Koch Industries was assessed more than $400 million in fines, penalties and judgments. In December 1999, a civil jury found that Koch Industries had taken oil it didn’t pay for from federal land by mis-measuring the amount of crude it was extracting. Koch paid a $25 million settlement to the United States.

    Phil Dubose, a Koch employee who testified against the company, said he and his colleagues were shown by their managers how to steal and cheat — using techniques they called the “Koch Method.”
    In March 1999, Koch Petroleum Group, a Koch Industries subsidiary, pled guilty to charges that it had negligently dumped hundreds of thousands of gallons of aviation fuel into wetlands near the Mississippi River from its refinery in Rosemount, Minnesota, and that it had also illegally dumped a million gallons of high-ammonia wastewater onto the ground and into the Mississippi River. Koch Petroleum paid the Dakota County Park System a $6 million fine and $2 million in remediation costs, and was ordered to serve three years of probation.
    In 1999, a federal jury found that Koch Industries had stolen oil from government and American Indian lands, had lied about its purchases more than 24,000 times, and was fined $553,504.

    In January 2000, a Koch Industries subsidiary, Koch Pipeline, agreed to a $35 million settlement with the U.S. Justice Department and the State of Texas. This settlement, including a $30 million civil fine, was incurred for the firm's three hundred oil spills in Texas and five other states going back to 1990.

    In 2001, the company reached two settlements with the government. In April, the company reached a $20 million settlement in exchange for admitting to covering up environmental violations at its refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas. That May, Koch Industries paid $25 million to the federal government to settle a federal lawsuit that found the company had improperly taken more oil than it had paid for from federal and Indian land.

    In June 2003, the US Commerce Department fined Koch Industries subsidiary Flint Hill Resources a $200,000 civil penalty.
    They're not the only ones, just more visible than most.

    edit:: Also if you think corruption is bad now, it would be worse at the local level.
    Last edited by tehWise; 10-14-2011 at 18:00.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    Yea they're herded like sheep by people who are trained, funded, and sent out with

    As for as 'just do "x"'. The justice department has refused to prosecute multiple times when crimes were committed. And they've faced numerous criminal charges despite buying off politicians.

    Who would be there to investigate when private business is or isn't breaking the law, without government? What authority could do that?
    Keep your panties in a bunch. Limited gov't does not mean no gov't. Where has any tea partier expressed a desire to get rid of the FBI? Let alone all other forms of law enforcement?

    Facing charges is like almost being pregnant. Who gives a fuck. They got off once they pulled their puppets' strings.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    edit:: Also if you think corruption is bad now, it would be worse at the local level.
    No, it wouldn't. There's less pie to corrupt. 100% local corruption costs less than 25% federal. And the days of organized crime are over; the FBI won that battle already.
    Last edited by StainlessSteelRat; 10-14-2011 at 18:33.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    Keep your panties in a bunch. Limited gov't does not mean no gov't. Where has any tea partier expressed a desire to get rid of the FBI? Let alone all other forms of law enforcement?
    From the "1980 Libertarian Party Policy Platform" lists FBI amongst EPA to be completely "abolished". Also the year Koch was VP for lib party:

    http://brooklynmutt.com/post/4878392...rian-partys-vp


    No, it wouldn't. There's less pie to corrupt. 100% local corruption costs less than 25% federal. And the days of organized crime are over; the FBI won that battle already.
    You've clearly never lived in a "Good ol boy" small town midwest culture where people from the same church or high school football team get preferential treatment, building contracts, etc.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    From the "1980 Libertarian Party Policy Platform" lists FBI amongst EPA to be completely "abolished". Also the year Koch was VP for lib party:

    http://brooklynmutt.com/post/4878392...rian-partys-vp
    Really? 1980 libertarian platform? You're kidding, right? You do realize that a) the tea party is not the libertarian party and b) there is no libertarian candidate in this election and c) platforms do change somewhat over time.

    I suppose that means Democrats still support the Fugitive Slave Act?

    6. Resolved, That the enactments of the State Legislatures to defeat the faithful execution of the Fugitive Slave Law, are hostile in character, subversive of the Constitution, and revolutionary in their effect.

    Yes, its an exaggeration to make a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    You've clearly never lived in a "Good ol boy" small town midwest culture where people from the same church or high school football team get preferential treatment, building contracts, etc.
    And you have? Therefore nothing will change if we eliminate federal level corruption........
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

  5. #35
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    Too much power is concentrated with government. It needs to be spread out among individuals. Political power should be ended.
    "What, you think just because you need it means you have a right to take mine?"


    Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 26.67%, Killer 93.33%, Socializer 60.00%

    Quote Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
    I should get ahead of the curve and ban you now then...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    Who would be there to investigate when private business is or isn't breaking the law, without government? What authority could do that?
    Well by your own admission the government isn't doing anything anyways. So lets say all these people couldn't be bribed and they are committing crimes, all it would take is a couple citizens who had enough to build/present a case, with the help of a decent lawyer if they're guilty no jury will let them get away with their crimes. You're an idiot though, you want to keep the current system even though in the same breath you talk about how corrupt and worthless it is.
    Last edited by Makestro; 10-14-2011 at 19:44.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makestro View Post
    Well by your own admission the government isn't doing anything anyways. So lets say all these people couldn't be bribed and they are committing crimes, all it would take is a couple citizens who had enough to build/present a case, with the help of a decent lawyer if they're guilty no jury will let them get away with their crimes. You're an idiot though, you want to keep the current system even though in the same breath you talk about how corrupt and worthless it is.
    You're an idiot for saying, "well, if it's not working perfectly we must completely eliminate it" and average citizens will fill it's place.

    So in your world only when a whistle blower comes to a handful of citizens, will a case come forth to a jury?

    Otherwise how does a citizen have access to the information????

    And, yes, the system we have now is in trouble, but completely scrapping it isn't the answer.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    You're an idiot for saying, "well, if it's not working perfectly we must completely eliminate it" and average citizens will fill it's place.

    So in your world only when a whistle blower comes to a handful of citizens, will a case come forth to a jury?

    Otherwise how does a citizen have access to the information????

    And, yes, the system we have now is in trouble, but completely scrapping it isn't the answer.
    No, I'm not saying eliminate everything that protects the people, I'm not a anarchist libertarian and I support some government, I just don't think we need the mountains of regulation we currently have on business, but you'll talk out of both sides of your mouth on this because it doesn't seem to click a lot of regulation holds the little guy down while benefiting the big guy. As it stands, companies do tons of shit against the law and pay people off and the public thinks everything is okay because they think they're protected by these people. A good example of this is the tar sands in canada. Government officials bought off pretend like they're not polluting the environment around them and it wasn't until the concerned public butted in they proved otherwise. This isn't just an isolated incident in canada either.

    As for "not working perfectly" you make it sound like it's working at all, when it hardly is, you also seem to think the people are to dumb to figure out when there is a problem. Also when did I ever say completely scrap the system? I said we have way to much regulation, I never said get rid of it all. I also support social programs and government run shit, I just don't support most of it at a federal level. You seem to think all libertarians are this cookie cutter template when in reality there are many flavors of libertarianism just like there are leftism and rightism.
    Frumpy Lump's rage
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhandorder View Post
    He said consumers make jobs appear. Let him explain how that happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    I've done shit you probably would faint from even thinking
    Quote Originally Posted by Death's Chill View Post
    At least I get to fuck.
    http://www.twitch.tv/makestro

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehWise View Post
    You're an idiot for saying, "well, if it's not working perfectly we must completely eliminate it" and average citizens will fill it's place.
    He never said it, you are the one pretending that the tea party 'platform' is one of anarchy and would eliminate government Oooooh Aaaaaaah!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    If 3/4 of all the money spent on defense was diverted into education funds, public school would be dirt cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Sparrow View Post
    99% of human resource offices are paid for by grants (non-tax dollars).

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