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  1. #16
    Normal User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009


    you need to start with stuff you like...
    Program darkfall bot or i dont know what do you play...program your own mp3 player,or .php webpage with mysql databases and all...without any template,YOUR webpage.
    it does not matter what language at the start,you need to know how all the variables and loops work need to make something that you like and is fun for you..try to make keylogger for example funny virus that open CD spammer...things like that
    It is very imortant,because only that will keep you interested and you will reserach by yourself a lot

    Starting from "hello world" a go trought all well described,but useless and boring aplications from the books will not get you anywhere

    Programing can be very boring task,you need to like it
    I pesonaly think that low-level programming such as c++ or assember gives most money..there is A LOT of gas pumps,LED displays and industrial robots to be programmed..a lot more that you think

  2. #17


    LOL ...IT includes programming.

    Programming is processing of information..

    These is the very basis learning to say "a" if you are about to learn to speak..

    btw a good analogy ..cause you write programme code in a language..

    What the custumer wants from you is processing and manage information in a scheme of Input -> Output.

    So because other branches of IT care about access to data, store of data, connect to data. Programmer have to write code that processes data (information).

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008


    seriously, ai.
    AnarchAbolical Killers
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    That's actually pretty sexy.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005


    someone linked this to me long time ago. I still havent dived in there to see if its actually worth a shit, but have a look.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009


    start with c++ and bite yourself into it.

    c++ will give you an idea of how the hardware below works, and open a way to assembly.

    once you master c++, go both ways into lower level asm and higher level python, java, and learn how to compose a program of modules coded in different languages.

    asm will help you to extract information straight out of registers, and or work directly with registers to speed up certain simple tasks which libraries don t do correctly.

    it s good to know one interpreted language like python which allows for dynamically do things, as well good to know java, because of how easy it is to interweave it with browsers, using applets and servlets.
    java is less platform dependent, allowing you to use most code in both linux and windows with only a few minor changes.

    once you mastered the basics of c++, on your to-do list should be to get input from an external device connected via serial and or usb, and learn how to control this device and or read/write information from and to it.
    i am not talking about some usb hdd or similar which already has it s input and output libraries you use, but about something
    non standard, where you actually read the incoming information of your usb or serial port into some memory buffer you work with.

    that s going to be a difficult one, because you have to actually know all about the serial/usb port and how to make it do things manually, rather than using libraries which do it for you.

    in the end however, most of your coding won t be your own, because you will be using a huge amount of libraries.
    you will soon find out, that most of the coding is actually done by libraries, rather than you. you just enter the parameters, and get the output.

    and here is where the problems begin. finding the right libraries for the task is not easy, because the free are often too slow or buggy and the real good stuff might be patented.
    here is where your asm and c++ skills come in. if you want to do things fast, you will have to learn and reverse engineer libraries, and adjust them to your needs.
    you cannot really code everything from scratch. there are libraries for encryption or encoding mp3/mpeg etc which require a life of studying maths to be able and code it yourself.
    so you need to learn how to use code effectively without really understanding what is going on behind, when it would take ages to get behind, and just know how to get the right output of it, when feeding it with the input.

    for example,
    feed a speex codec for encoding sound with (sound)bytes, and get as output an encoded stream of bytes.
    you don t know exactly how speex does the encoding, and you shouldn t attempt to understand it either, unless you are a genius which requires only a few hours to get behind it.

    note that i have not the slightest clue of what i wrote above is actually accurate, since i just made it up in my mind.
    either way, it might give you some ideas.
    Last edited by pZombie; 12-10-2010 at 20:34.

  6. #21


    pZombie has a good handle on things from a technical perspective. Much will depend on the type of job you want. Bear in mind that leanring to write a few lines of code is about 30% of development. Knowing how development teams work, how QA is performed, coding styles is almost more important than simply writing the code. This is what school will introduce to you (sometimes poorly).

    Jobs vary from the 'code slave' category (video games) to high-end jobs that pay well and people are treated VERY well.

    I can say that my job as an embedded engineer and system architect is more interesting and professional than most business I know. Bear in mind that I have worked in the real world and I am not simply some kid who got a degree because his parents told him to and knows nothing else. On the whole any job can be a shit-hole if you work for incompetent monkeys.

    For desktop applications and web applications:
    computer science, engineering, or IT degree (4 year degree).

    If you know people you can often land a job here if you are self taught or have a 2 year certification. Pay will be very low.

    Lots of jobs

    Pay scale
    Varies widely. These jobs will typically fall into the "code slave" category. Top end will be 30k-80k.

    Mostly java, Visual basic, maybe python are used here.

    Enterprise Systems & Database Management
    computer science, engineering, or IT degree (4 year degree).

    generally wont break into this area without a degree.

    Pay scale
    Top end will be 60-120k.

    C or java, Visual basic, SQL

    Embedded Systems
    computer science or engineering (4 year degree).

    Wont break into this area without a degree.

    Pay scale
    Treated very well depending on company. Pay is generally 70k-150k

    lots of jobs in this area. Very hard to fill.

    Assembly & C required. java/python/PERL a plus. hardware Knowledge will generally be required at some point.

    Software Architecture
    computer science or engineering (4 year degree masters often desired).

    Pay scale
    100k+, treated very well.

    Assembly, C/C++ Hardware Knowledge

    Areas where you develop graphics engines, drivers, or similiar desktop packages fall into the embedded area. These workers are paid well above median and get paid very well.
    Last edited by TheVillageIdiot; 12-10-2010 at 21:07.
    "I May be dumb, but I'm not stupid!"
    - The Village Idiot

  7. #22


    If you want more detail on what people lookk for when they hire. Checkout:

    They do a decent job of linking pay to a job description. As I posted earlier there are many different type of programming jobs.

    If you are changing fields (or entering one) you should really ask your self "can my 16yr old neighbor do this." If they can, then odds are that the market will become competitive and pay will not be very good after a few years.

    1yr out of college I could have easily taken jobs for 20k+ making web pages. However within 2 yrs everyone in that area was looking for work. 12 years later I have experience in an area which is difficult to fill because the US simply does not graduate enough students in math/sciences.
    "I May be dumb, but I'm not stupid!"
    - The Village Idiot

  8. #23


    Quote Originally Posted by MortalZero View Post
    LOL ...IT includes programming.

    Programming is processing of information..

    These is the very basis learning to say "a" if you are about to learn to speak..

    btw a good analogy ..cause you write programme code in a language..

    What the custumer wants from you is processing and manage information in a scheme of Input -> Output.

    So because other branches of IT care about access to data, store of data, connect to data. Programmer have to write code that processes data (information).
    FYI, Engineers think of IT workers as "the printer bitch." On the whole software/hardware engineers are significantly higher paid with higher demands than IT.

    My current company is the first company I have seen where IT actually develops tools and systems. Generally IT is relegated to help desk, virus removal, and telling people to reboot their computer.
    "I May be dumb, but I'm not stupid!"
    - The Village Idiot

  9. #24


    Quote Originally Posted by Gloomrender View Post
    How much time is needed to learn enough programming to land a 40K+ job, assuming unlimited time commitment?
    To know enough to do the job, it really depends on how you are, but you could prolly be able to do it in 2-3 years. Problem is, as others said, they'll ask you for titles.

    How much education is required? Do you have to have certification/s? If so, what kind? Do you need a bachelors?
    For good jobs yes, for small jobs they won't ask you for certifications, or easy to get ones.

    Just how difficult is it? How much math do you need to know, what grade equivalency?
    Depends on what language you talking about and what kind of program you making. Some are really easy, some really need a lot of background knowledge.

    I was told you can learn all of it online, and for free, is this true?
    This is indeed true for the most part.

    It was recommended that I should learn python and go from there. Is that a good language to start with? What is the best language to learn with? And what order should I go? python>C+>javascript? Or what? I'm willing to learn it all, so just tell me from first to last.
    Contrary to what pzombie said, i wouldn't start with c++, it's a little bit too complex and you have control over too many things for a starter.

    I think python is a good one to start with. Quite intuitive and it has a lot of options, plus doing all the "hard work" for you. Then you could go onto c++ to actually do good performance programs and understand what exactly you're doing. If you know python and c++, learning any other of the common languages shouldn't be any problem at all, just learning the syntax, because everything else is mostly the same. Be it Java, SQL(which isn't really programming) or whatever the fuck, it will be a matter of 2 weeks to "learn" it once you know to PROGRAM.

    Exception to this could be assembler as it's not really a programming language, it's THE programming language(well, one for each processor). Not really used much and if you don't have a degree/whatever i wouldn't really bother with this.

    Oh, and long term, is programming here to stay? Or will AI do it all in 20 years?
    Let's see... AI are programs, which are programmed by people, they generally don't program.

    There might be some AI's that can do small automatically generated programs, but a couple of facts regarding this:

    -AI is overrated. Current AI's aren't anywhere close to human intelligence or what you see on films. I mean, NOT EVEN REMOTELY. Current AI's are incredibly stupid. It's very hard to program AI's, and most of them are extremely simplified.

    -There's proofs, even mathemathical, that some things are simply IMPOSSIBLE to be done in an automated way, so AI will never be "doing everything". Real question here is whether humans are also "machines" in that sense tho, but overall, AI isn't gonna "take over".

    -If AI was ever able to do a bit more complex tasks regarding to actually programming, there would be even more complex programs that would need to be done that AI wouldn't be able to do yet.

    Overall, your question doesn't really make much sense. It's not that AI is too much or too little advanced, it just doesn't make much sense that AI would replace programmers in general.
    Last edited by Orolt Lifebring; 12-10-2010 at 21:27.
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  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    DTC (France)


    I love programmers who got in the industry to get "a 40k job sitting behind a desk". They do so much shit competent programmers will have jobs for decades (gotta love indians too).

    You want a job ? Get a degree.
    You also want to be good at your job and enjoy creating software ? Be ready to work new skills during all your career and do side projects.

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  11. #26
    5000+ Long term follower
    Join Date
    Dec 2003


    Learn some programming languages.

    Read what Pzombie said about C++ as a starting point.

    Graduate with a degree in CS, MIS, mIT, some IT releated field from a college/university where they teach you how to code/debug/etc (basics)

    If you find something you really like, peruse that field/area a bit more.
    (Some people like hardware more, or infrastructure, or just developing code)

    Shower, shave, cologne, good suite, A-game face. and rock all your interviews

    You will be making 40k+ right out of school. (Depending on your location in the states, how well you can sell yourself, and how big of a company you go with)

    Personally, I joined a "Large corporation" (25,000+ employees), it has its perks like offers better benefits then the smaller firms, but I am in a sea of other programmers, with the flick of a switch I could be let go for no apparent reason.

    Whereas small firms, generally more hands on, not as much research/learning about the THAT system due to the size differences. (Multi mil size systems vs single mil systems), job security is a little better, generally speaking

    But, be prepared to always be teaching yourself new and better technology/languages/etc.

    Since you are in a technology field be ready to change, frequently, and fast. If you are not leading that way, your already in the dust

    And technology (i hope) will not die out overnight, so if you stay current with the NEW, you will always have a job with the way our current society is moving towards.

    PS. if you suck at programming, you will never move past that 40k a year. You need to show improvement otherwise the better programmers will just wizz right on by and get 10X the pay you get. Programming is one of those fields where the better you are at it, the better you get paid.
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  12. #27


    IMHO MIS/IT degrees will limit you severely. They are easier to get but teach you far less than an engineering or CS degree.

    Working for a large company is great for starting out but you will find that it is easy to hide sheer incompetence at very high levels within big companies. Much of what you learn in your first few year will be what you get paid for 5 years down the road. If your boss gives you no responsibility and/or no ownership of your projects then other jobs should be explored.
    "I May be dumb, but I'm not stupid!"
    - The Village Idiot

  13. #28


    Quote Originally Posted by Arkh View Post
    I love programmers who got in the industry to get "a 40k job sitting behind a desk".
    I like how you quote nothing anybody said here.

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  14. #29


    If you're actually interested in programming itself you should just start hacking shit up on your own and really get into it no matter what you're doing for school or work. Diving in will answer most of your questions about how to do it and how hard it is, and most importantly whether you like doing it.

    I think approaching programming from the X amount of salary in Y years perspective is the wrong way to go. There's probably more surefire paths to your desired salary for a given amount of investment.

    Have a look at and to get a pulse on the tech nerd scene. Pretty sure questions like yours have been asked and answered in depth.

  15. #30
    Normal User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Trapped, in a WoF


    Most people in this thread are giving mediocre or bad advice.

    Programming is the least important part of creating programs. At the best computer science departments you barely do any programming. Instead, you learn the higher order concepts which are merely expressed in small program instances. What's important are the higher order abstract understandings, not the particular implementations. When you seep your brain in those, you can generalize about whole orders of problem solving and programming that a mere programmer could never dream of, literally.
    Last edited by EnchantedGrotto; 12-11-2010 at 03:51.

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