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  1. #31

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    Non of this really surprises me. Kind of expected it happened anyhow. All of this was bound to happen. Most of it is just soldiers and commanders making due in a shitty situation. One of the reasons we should of never gone there to begin with.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegler View Post
    so which is it....are we a occupying opressor? or a force trying to let the iraqis rule themselves?

    How is it that we are responsible for iraqi on iraqi violence?

    In other words, we cant keep them, we cant turn them over to sweden, or Iran....so we return them to themselves.
    Warcrime is a warcrime. It's the duty of the US government to NOT turn them over if they know the pows are going to be tortured. Problem with the UN is it's uncapable of enforcing international laws which the usa and other major powers routinely violate. Otherwise much of the bush and current administration would be in jail on trial.
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  3. #33
    8000+ Long term follower Tenebrion's Avatar
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    NEWS : War isn't pretty.

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrion View Post
    NEWS : War isn't pretty.
    No the news channels says otherwise

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The V-Shine View Post
    Honestly, I really don't care if we torture people, innocent or guilty. Wars a war. shit happens. people die. Rapes, fires, executions, torture, they're all just part of the same picture. There is no honorable war, the only hypocritical thing I see them doing is trying to make it seem like there is.
    How convenient that your war is far away from your place. I wonder how people like you would think if the same shit going on in Iraq would happen in your country too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyldor Gwyvallt View Post
    Obviously all this in the US...the country where a fanatical worship of science has replaced any true religious sense or any balanced perception of LIFE

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nizzie View Post
    How convenient that your war is far away from your place. I wonder how people like you would think if the same shit going on in Iraq would happen in your country too.
    They wouldn't like it, that's why it is preferable to fight wars in someone elses country.

  7. #37
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    Standards for waging war is like totally last year you guys!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nizzie View Post
    How convenient that your war is far away from your place. I wonder how people like you would think if the same shit going on in Iraq would happen in your country too.
    Mexico?

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  9. #39
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    another sick news about the US Goverment!

    btw:
    still waiting on the wikileak about first moonlanding

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    The war logs also show the US imposed a formal policy to ignore human rights abuses committed by the Iraqi military. Under an order known as "Frago 242" issued in June 2004, coalition troops were barred from investigating any violations committed by Iraqi troops against other Iraqis. Hundreds of cases of killings, torture and rape at the hands of the Iraqi troops were ignored.

    That doesn't equate to "US-Backed". It equates to "US-Ignored".

    If you "back" something, you support it, you endorse it, you aid in its undertaking.

    I read the link. Did you? Maybe English is not your first language? Maybe you read what you wanted to read and not what was reported?

    Hell, they may have even 'backed' it, but your link does not substantiate the claim. I didn't read the 390,000 documents yet.......... /rollseyes
    Just a quick question, but wouldn't you agree that the entire current Iraq-regime is "US-backed"? Since the U.S. put it in place after destroying the old government? Furthermore, ending the torture in Iraq was one of the stated main objectives (besides the evil WMDs, but we all know what happened to that justification...) of the war to fight the evil Iraqi rogue government. Now we find that (surprisingly...) the new Iraqi government doesn't seem to do any better, but it's backed, supported and has its atrocities ignored by the U.S. government (and by those governments of other participating nations).

    Basically, if China would go to the U.S. and say "your government is horrible, we'll replace it with a new and fairer one", they succeed in overthrowing your government, install a new government and while the new government is found to commit various atrocities, the Chinese government - knowing of those atrocities - decides to ignore them and continue to fund/defend the new U.S. government. Wouldn't you call those atrocities "China-backed" in that case? Because what would happened if you tried to defend yourself against that new government? That's right, China would kick your ass just as the U.S. government is kicking the ass of everyone who tries to fight off the Iraqi government.

    Of course, to my knowledge there aren't many angels on either side in the current conflict on Iraqi grounds, but that just means that whichever side you pick, support, fund, "back", you'll have blood on your hands and your actions will enable one or the other to kill innocents (if you don't do that yourself in the process of defending the side you chose) which will in the end insight more hatred against you - and understandably so.
    Last edited by Blixa; 10-26-2010 at 22:15.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blixa View Post
    Just a quick question, but wouldn't you agree that the entire current Iraq-regime is "US-backed"? Since the U.S. put it in place after destroying the old government? Furthermore, ending the torture in Iraq was one of the stated main objectives (besides the evil WMDs, but we all know what happened to that justification...) of the war to fight the evil Iraqi rogue government. Now we find that (surprisingly...) the new Iraqi government doesn't seem to do any better, but it's backed, supported and has its atrocities ignored by the U.S. government (and by those governments of other participating nations).

    Basically, if China would go to the U.S. and say "your government is horrible, we'll replace it with a new and fairer one", they succeed in overthrowing your government, install a new government and while the new government is found to commit various atrocities, the Chinese government - knowing of those atrocities - decides to ignore them and continue to fund/defend the new U.S. government. Wouldn't you call those atrocities "China-backed" in that case? Because what would happened if you tried to defend yourself against that new government? That's right, China would kick your ass just as the U.S. government is kicking the ass of everyone who tries to fight off the Iraqi government.

    Of course, to my knowledge there aren't many angels on either side in the current conflict on Iraqi grounds, but that just means that whichever side you pick, support, fund, "back", you'll have blood on your hands and your actions will enable one or the other to kill innocents (if you don't do that yourself in the process of defending the side you chose) which will in the end insight more hatred against you - and understandably so.
    Not that I find your analogy entirely accurate but my answer would be 'No'. No moreso than I would claim Israel's human rights violations are 'US-backed'. We give them a ton of support also.

    To me, if I am 'backing' something, I am endorsing it, encouraging it, would do it myself if asked to stand in.

    Ending torture in Iraq was one of the 'justifications'? Seriously? rofl

  12. #42
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    But the oil is safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigngod View Post
    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateGlen View Post
    But the oil is safe?
    The Oil must flow.
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderboy2402 View Post
    The Oil must flow.
    to china...
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteelRat View Post
    Not that I find your analogy entirely accurate but my answer would be 'No'. No moreso than I would claim Israel's human rights violations are 'US-backed'. We give them a ton of support also.

    To me, if I am 'backing' something, I am endorsing it, encouraging it, would do it myself if asked to stand in.
    Well, quite literally, the U.S. government "has the back covered" of Iraq's government and therefore enables them to engage in torture, etc - so, yes, U.S. involvement is crucial to torture incidents going on now in Iraq (I'm not saying that a different government wouldn't use torture, but the current government can only do so due to the U.S. which decidedly looks the other way).

    Remember that, although doubtful, there's at least a chance that without the order to allied forces (read: they didn't just order U.S. forces not to investigate, but also all other allied forces) not to investigate the killings, torture in Iraq might be much less than it is today.

    So, by installing a government and backing them, you are also backing their policies (by keeping others from doing something about them). And yes, the U.S. also supports Israel's human rights violations (do you really deny this?).

    Just look at the incident with the turkish ship (did you see the report that recently came out where it was found that contrary to Israeli claims the first Turkish passangers were already shot from the helicopter and several of them were executed by headshots from behind?):

    Israel was criticized by almost all western nations for this - except for America again who "got their backs covered" and defended their actions as justified).

    Ending torture in Iraq was one of the 'justifications'? Seriously? rofl
    Yes, indeed. Iraq was, before the beginning of the war 2003, portrait by the U.S. government as an evil rogue nation with a government that tortures and terrorizes its government (which very possible is an accurate description), the U.S. government publicly saw themselves as the "liberators" of the Iraqi people. Torture was cited as one of the main atrocities of the Iraqi government (and rightly so). After the WMD story has now been exposed as an obvious lie and is acknowledges as one by basically anyone, there are still people defending the war? Which justification is used? That's right, "we overthrew an evil government that tortured its citizens", "we liberated the people of Iraq", etc. pp.

    PS: Please don't read my posts as blind leftist european anti-Americanism; I have nothing against America per se, it's just that I'm opposed to militarism, imperialism, backing puppet-regimes and supporting/defending/promoting torture/etc around the world - by the U.S. or any other country (including my own) for that matter.
    Last edited by Blixa; 10-26-2010 at 23:55.
    Deflation may be inevitable.
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