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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhandorder View Post
    Socialism does not mitigate it it propagates it. Look at Scandinavian countries. Started out with almost perfect societies after 150 years of free market capitalism. Fucked it all up in less then 50 years. Their women birth demographics mirror American ghetos. Mothers are encouraged to breed children to get easy life and their children are mimicking them. 54% of kids born in Sweden are out of wedlock.
    If its failing, you can ask. Any Swede here willing to say how fucked up your country has become? From what I read, it was terrible back in the day , like capitalism usually is unregulated, and from that need arose unions.

    I never heard of this Scandinavian free market paradise. Your statistics show close wedlock rates as America, however it is noted that social issues from that are much lower due to them being two-parent unmarried homes.

    Communism creates less prosperous society. There can not be equitable distribution in a poor society there is simply not enough resources to satisfy everyone.
    Its not to satisfy everyone, its that those receiving extravagance, like a CEO pocketing tens of millions while his company crashes while workers are left without even compensation, is fair.

    There is a word for people like that. They are useful idiots, they will defend it, rationalize it but in the end they will be thrown to the side by the thugs once the economy fails (it always does).
    Nice, possible useful idiots exist, but that doesn't say anything about communist distinctions. Capitalism has many forms like statist and corporatist, but I don't lump them together.

    This is the first time I hear of scientific strike breaking. That is what you call it amongst other retarded concepts you use to define things that are already well explained.
    So your idea is that, I never heard of this and therefore its retarded and already known. No, just go look it up and don't reply to this point.

    When unions advocate for laws that take away private property rights this is when they are dangerous. Unfortunately vast majority of unions fall into this category.
    By that rights, do you mean better working conditions? Unions were driven on that and higher wages since wages almost always stagnated relative to productivity growth, like it is today.

    The Chinese will get all they are asking for as soon as their government stops holding up the west. It is coming, they are practicing aggressive mercantilism. China is massively liberalizing their economy in the process.
    The biggest companies are state run, the domestic sector is driven off Keynsian policy and the Chinese government has stronger overriding command of companies then the U.S. Liberalization of the economy, yes its probably going to happen, but its essence is still statist for a forseeable future.

    Canada, Europe, America and Japan are going to experience a giant economic shock very soon. Society here is still very free and will immediately split on what needs to be done. Socialists can not argue because economics does not agree with their ideas and morally they are also reprehensible. With no free things to promise they will be resoundingly rejected.
    Okay I predict tommorow I win a million bucks. Economists have barely predicted economic futures, I doubt you can.
    Last edited by StrawberryClock; 08-23-2010 at 00:03.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryClock View Post
    If its failing, you can ask. Any Swede here willing to say how fucked up your country has become? From what I read, it was terrible back in the day , like capitalism usually is unregulated, and from that need arose unions.
    Capitalism was not terrible, it was the reason why any of the poor lived at all. Imagine that era without capitalism. Fraction of the factories would afford to stay in business. Majority of those who worked in "slave" like conditions would not be working or getting any food in their stomachs. People like you always compare old times with bad tech to modern times.

    I never heard of this Scandinavian free market paradise. Your statistics show close wedlock rates as America, however it is noted that social issues from that are much lower due to them being two-parent unmarried homes.
    You never heard of it because you listen to the likes of Chomsky. Also one correction I never said it was paradise, stop looking for a utopia man.

    Its not to satisfy everyone, its that those receiving extravagance, like a CEO pocketing tens of millions while his company crashes while workers are left without even compensation, is fair.
    Strong managers come out of a system where there is a lot of uncertainty so the companies merge together to internalize markets. You have no one to blame but your socialist friends for this. Weak investor oversight is a symptom of too much regulation.

    If you care for my reading material I can give it to you.

    Nice, possible useful idiots exist, but that doesn't say anything about communist distinctions. Capitalism has many forms like statist and corporatist, but I don't lump them together.
    You should really read up on your own history then.

    http://mises.org/daily/4627

    Your people deep down always resent any democratic action. When you get resoundingly defeated you mat realize your folly or you may join them calling for a revolution.

    So your idea is that, I never heard of this and therefore its retarded and already known. No, just go look it up and don't reply to this point.
    You are bringing terms into discussion without explaining them. I am not wasting my time trying to decipher your vocabulary. It seems your Chomsky has a habit of reinventing old words.

    By that rights, do you mean better working conditions? Unions were driven on that and higher wages since wages almost always stagnated relative to productivity growth, like it is today.
    I mean that they point a gun at the capital owner and tell him how his property can be used. If they want better working rights don't work unless they are provided. Obviously this is a losing proposition to them so they grab the gun.

    The biggest companies are state run, the domestic sector is driven off Keynsian policy and the Chinese government has stronger overriding command of companies then the U.S. Liberalization of the economy, yes its probably going to happen, but its essence is still statist for a forseeable future.
    Your point? I said they are becoming capitalists.


    Okay I predict tommorow I win a million bucks. Economists have barely predicted economic futures, I doubt you can.
    The economists I listen to have gotten it right every time.
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  3. #33

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    I've started reading offtopic forums lately and i have to post here to say this:

    Strawberryclock you better wake the fuck up. You live in some happy marvelous world where the "liberallists" are good and there's some clear "evil people" and socialism works. I mean, everytime you post something it is some typical liberallist-like shit.

    Then as you accuse others of hypocrisy and whatnot you go on and make a thread about how you sent an e-mail to some guy whose words you keep repeating to us; telling him how much you admire him like if he was a popstar; and without anything else to it rather than saying "i like you so much, thanks". And then you are happy he answers a 1 sentence mail.

    Seriously, you're like the best example of cliché liberallists and you make me want to puke.

    Sorry i had to say it...

    PS: I hate english i can't express myself right i sound like a child...
    Last edited by Orolt Lifebring; 08-23-2010 at 00:34.
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  4. #34

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    Just sit tight and wait until we go post shortage. At that point it should happen on its own.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhandorder View Post
    Capitalism was not terrible, it was the reason why any of the poor lived at all. Imagine that era without capitalism. Fraction of the factories would afford to stay in business. Majority of those who worked in "slave" like conditions would not be working or getting any food in their stomachs. People like you always compare old times with bad tech to modern times.
    I did not say the whole system is terrible. I said that the state was terrible enough to warrant improvements.

    So your belief is that because the system might provide better living conditions they can do whatever the fuck they want and not improve it? That is simply not rational, and the Swedes were in the right to improve the system that they have.

    You never heard of it because you listen to the likes of Chomsky. Also one correction I never said it was paradise, stop looking for a utopia man.
    You said perfect society or something along those lines, and which I am trying to dispel that it is because there was a need for unionization and reform(perfect societies wouldn't need a massive reformation effort would it).


    Strong managers come out of a system where there is a lot of uncertainty so the companies merge together to internalize markets. You have no one to blame but your socialist friends for this. Weak investor oversight is a symptom of too much regulation.
    I don't see how this is a reply to the aims of communists.

    You should really read up on your own history then.

    http://mises.org/daily/4627
    This fucktard actually claimed Marx was a bourgeois? He lived in poverty while he was writing. That's the part where I skipped to. Aside from that, it sounds pretty rational, that according to Marx class consciousness(or self-interest) leads to formation of ideology, and that people who don't share it are divergents of class interest. Marx was again, impoverished to the point where several of his children died, fits that, but Engels was rich so I guess he can be divergent.

    I again, skipped Lenin and Stalin's part. Lenin in some part was closer, but Stalin is just a massive deviation.

    Your people deep down always resent any democratic action. When you get resoundingly defeated you mat realize your folly or you may join them calling for a revolution.
    No, stop misunderstanding anarchism. Democracy is a cornerstone of it, because they don't see corporate society as democratic. I can contest that even great minds such as Baudrillard, Foucault and Chomsky share this opinion.

    You are bringing terms into discussion without explaining them. I am not wasting my time trying to decipher your vocabulary. It seems your Chomsky has a habit of reinventing old words.
    Why did you try to argue what's it about? You thought that word was already well explained.

    I mean that they point a gun at the capital owner and tell him how his property can be used. If they want better working rights don't work unless they are provided. Obviously this is a losing proposition to them so they grab the gun.
    No, there idea wasn't like that. It was them bargaining together and saying, well all of us won't work for you if you don't improve this. It fits your libertarian idea of wage and labor negotiations.

    Your point? I said they are becoming capitalists.
    I am disproving that those societies are currently shifting to capitalism, which is not really happening since they are fundamentally statist.

    The economists I listen to have gotten it right every time.
    I think you lack deeper understanding of the field of economics. In it, there are almost none who get it right every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orolt Lifebring View Post
    I've started reading offtopic forums lately and i have to post here to say this:

    Strawberryclock you better wake the fuck up. You live in some happy marvelous world where the "liberallists" are good and there's some clear "evil people" and socialism works. I mean, everytime you post something it is some typical liberallist-like shit.
    That is a reduction to idiot level views, yes. I've always wondered how fucktards view of my posts, and this might be it.

    Then as you accuse others of hypocrisy and whatnot you go on and make a thread about how you sent an e-mail to some guy whose words you keep repeating to us; telling him how much you admire him like if he was a popstar; and without anything else to it rather than saying "i like you so much, thanks". And then you are happy he answers a 1 sentence mail.
    This same criticism was said in that thread, which I dispelled. I mean, almost all of it. You should read beyond one or two posts when criticizing me. I also don't see how this is hypocrisy.

    Seriously, you're like the best example of cliché liberallists and you make me want to puke.
    Sure, I guess you certainly lack the knowledge to make distinctions among the left, like I have among the right. I mean, if I was at idiot levels of reasoning like you, I'd probably think this forum was fascist.

    Sorry i had to say it...

    PS: I hate english i can't express myself right i sound like a child...
    Good, speak in your native language to yourself. I honestly do not want to refute anything you say, and find that flaming you is more productive.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryClock View Post
    It had been successful in Eastern Bloc nations to some degree in the 50's-70's, as they industrialized and had massively increased there standard of living. It has been somewhat successful in Anarchist Spain, in Makhno's Ukraine, in some factories and etc. in liberated Italy, in early kibbutzim, in some Argentine societies, in some free territories of Hungary.

    Most if not all were crushed by outside forces, whether it be the Allies in Italy, Fascists in Spain, statist communists in Ukraine, Hungary and Spain, capitalism in Israel or are already existing in very small or weak forms in Argentina, Mexico and elsewhere in the world.

    EDIT: There must also be clear defintions of state and anarchist communism, since they differ so massively. The latter part of this is anarchist in nature.

    Jerk off, my father escaped Hungary in 1957 during the Hungarian revolution.....communism was a big Fail in Hungary, until Hungary, being the first eastern bloc country to open its borders, which then led to the berlin wall coming down a few weeks later. Listening to rock and roll music got you shot in Hungary in the 50's. Only the leaders of the communist party had all the wealth...the average Hungarian was poor as dirt. You have no clue what your talking about. Some kid who reads a few books and thinks he knows how the world works. Do you even have hair on your nuts yet...?

    I went to HUngary every summer when i was young, and you don't know poor until you actually see it yourself. But after the wall came down, and i visited in the late 90's, the transformation was incredible. I saw first hand how capitalism changed that country from a dirt poor nation to a thriving nation. Everyone benifited from the change.


    you get beat up alot in school dont you Strawberry....
    Last edited by Reckin Crew; 08-23-2010 at 17:44.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokstarr View Post
    1st Paragraph: That's called providing for your family, that is not communism.

    2nd Paragraph: Besides technology, I really don't think we humans have changed much. I reckon, for instance, Shakespeare's works will still be relevant 500 years from now, and would be 1,000 years before his time. We havn't changed that much, things have just gotten easier.

    3rd Paragraph: There's plenty wrong with communism. Off the top of my head, Mao and Stalin.
    1st Paragraph: Even if it isnt family?

    2nd Paragraph: I bet you shakespear wouldnt had made himself famous in our time

    3rd Paragraph: A person cant be communism, They are communists. These might have been evil men but the idea itself isnt evil. On the contrary its a much more humane idea then say capitalism (every man for himself)
    Last edited by Captain Kirk; 08-23-2010 at 18:09.


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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryClock View Post
    No, stop misunderstanding anarchism. Democracy is a cornerstone of it, because they don't see corporate society as democratic. I can contest that even great minds such as Baudrillard, Foucault and Chomsky share this opinion.
    It's not anarchy if it's democracy. Stop misunderstanding anarchism.

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    Deductive reasoning has noing to do with logic. In fact deductive reasoning is illogical. Go define logic and come back to the discussion an educated man.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kirk View Post
    1st Paragraph: Even if it isnt family?

    2nd Paragraph: I bet you shakespear wouldnt had made himself famous in our time

    3rd Paragraph: A person cant be communism, They are communists. These might have been evil men but the idea itself isnt evil. On the contrary its a much more humane idea then say capitalism (every man for himself)
    1: It's an interesting point, however, by 'family' I don't mean blood-lines. For instance, when I was in the service, I considered the men in my squad family.

    2: Conjecture, and doesn't really refute my point. Never the less, it's hard to say; if nobody had hit on his basic ideas? Then yeah, he would have. Language and delivery method would have been different, of course, but Romeo and Juliet, for example, will always be adored by people. Hell, they even remade it with guns!

    3: When I referred to Mao and Stalin, I wasn't really referring to their individual horrible-ness of each individual, but more to the fact that their combined communism killed about 60 million.

    Also, I disagree that capitalism is 'every man for himself.' A) We have charities, B) We have corporations, C) We have unions, D) We have insurance pools. E) etc etc. Here's why capitalism, in a nut shell, is better though; when you're are responsible for yourself, nobody else needs to be responsible for you. If everybody prescribes to this, then nobody needs to be responsible for anybody, and we are free to do with our money as we please. The only time we need to worry about each other is in dire catastrophe, and everyone is so used to being responsible for themselves, imagine how well that will go in catastrophe. The ideal is very much like communism, tbh, except it also allows for liberty. Real liberty cannot exist without a free market.

    Sorry for the sloppy last paragraph, a little lit right now.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokstarr View Post
    3: When I referred to Mao and Stalin, I wasn't really referring to their individual horrible-ness of each individual, but more to the fact that their combined communism killed about 60 million..
    Even you have to admit that this is a pretty ridiculous statement.

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryClock View Post
    I did not say the whole system is terrible. I said that the state was terrible enough to warrant improvements.

    So your belief is that because the system might provide better living conditions they can do whatever the fuck they want and not improve it? That is simply not rational, and the Swedes were in the right to improve the system that they have.
    Well fuck anything in the past is terrible enough to warrant improvements. It's called low tech times for a reason.

    You said perfect society or something along those lines, and which I am trying to dispel that it is because there was a need for unionization and reform(perfect societies wouldn't need a massive reformation effort would it).
    Fair enough on the Utopian remark.


    I don't see how this is a reply to the aims of communists.
    Because communists through increased regulations tipped the balance of power towards managers. The thing you rail against is directly caused by your fucked up ideology. You are using your own fuck ups to justify your goals.

    This fucktard actually claimed Marx was a bourgeois? He lived in poverty while he was writing. That's the part where I skipped to. Aside from that, it sounds pretty rational, that according to Marx class consciousness(or self-interest) leads to formation of ideology, and that people who don't share it are divergents of class interest. Marx was again, impoverished to the point where several of his children died, fits that, but Engels was rich so I guess he can be divergent.

    I again, skipped Lenin and Stalin's part. Lenin in some part was closer, but Stalin is just a massive deviation.
    Marx lived in poverty because he went bankrupt he was from upper class by upbringing.

    Stop running away from utter failure that is communism. If you can blame capitalism for failing you have to be able to defend communism for failing.

    No, stop misunderstanding anarchism. Democracy is a cornerstone of it, because they don't see corporate society as democratic. I can contest that even great minds such as Baudrillard, Foucault and Chomsky share this opinion.
    Corporate society is not supposed to be democratic you have owners of the capital and users of the capital. Ultimate decision rights must be with the owners of the property.

    Look up the definition of anarchism where does it say we all vote on what to do? What if I don't want to do what you decide on? What happens to me?

    Why did you try to argue what's it about? You thought that word was already well explained.
    No dipshit the first time I hear it and you did not even bother to explain it.
    No, there idea wasn't like that. It was them bargaining together and saying, well all of us won't work for you if you don't improve this. It fits your libertarian idea of wage and labor negotiations.
    Yet any law violating private property of capital owners has unions supporting that law. It does not matter that they are for peaceful negotiations if they are also for using the guns of the state when ever they are given the opportunity.

    I am disproving that those societies are currently shifting to capitalism, which is not really happening since they are fundamentally statist.
    Well then you are doing a horrible job at doing so. You simply pointed out their current state without showing how it is not changing towards capitalism. If you have a brutal tyrant and he gets replaced by a benevolent tyrant you make a move towards liberty. So what you did you jumped into discussion and started claiming that since you have a benevolent tyrant you must have had no improvements what so ever. Strawberry you are an extremely weak intellectual.

    I think you lack deeper understanding of the field of economics. In it, there are almost none who get it right every time.
    Who did you hear it from Chomsky? The guy that admitted that he got no clue about economics?
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrion View Post
    The only thing wrong with communism is humanity.
    The only thing wrong with communism....you eventually run out of other peoples stuff.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryClock View Post
    Sure, I guess you certainly lack the knowledge to make distinctions among the left, like I have among the right. I mean, if I was at idiot levels of reasoning like you, I'd probably think this forum was fascist.
    And that's exactly what i'm talking about. You classify stuff and decide "you're left", "you're right". Yes, i saw you specifically told me to distinguish among the left and among the right, but the point is you classify yourself in the left and seem to think everyone "on the left" is more right than everyone "on the right".

    Well i'm not on the left or on the right, nor on the centre, i fucking think stuff and draw conclusions. I often CHANGE MY MIND, and REALISE I'M WRONG. I agree with many centre, extreme-left, extreme-right and "all around" ideas, but i don't decide whether i agree with them or not depending on who said it or what his political alignment was. I think you do.

    From what i see you simply learned some slogans and general rules and apply them to anything all happy cos you're doing what's "right". Never change opinion because you actually considered something and classify things and people.

    However obviously since this is a forum and english is not my language, and all the other things that can have an effect on it, i might be wrong; but at least that's what it seems.

    Good, speak in your native language to yourself. I honestly do not want to refute anything you say, and find that flaming you is more productive.
    Well if i was wrong and you weren't what i think i would understand that answer and that behaviour, in any case i'd like to repeat once again that i hate talking about this stuff in english because i keep feeling i'm not using the right words...
    Last edited by Orolt Lifebring; 08-23-2010 at 21:48.
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  14. #44
    8000+ Long term follower Tenebrion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegler View Post
    The only thing wrong with communism....you eventually run out of other peoples stuff.
    You must not know what communism is. I advise you go educate yourself.

    With that aside, it's pretty neat that you can take a Faux News quote, ruin it by changing the topic of the quote, and then try to seem relevant to the conversation, though. Seriously, good job with that.
    Last edited by Tenebrion; 08-23-2010 at 22:10.

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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orolt Lifebring View Post
    I've started reading offtopic forums lately and i have to post here to say this:

    Strawberryclock you better wake the fuck up. You live in some happy marvelous world where the "liberallists" are good and there's some clear "evil people" and socialism works. I mean, everytime you post something it is some typical liberallist-like shit.

    Then as you accuse others of hypocrisy and whatnot you go on and make a thread about how you sent an e-mail to some guy whose words you keep repeating to us; telling him how much you admire him like if he was a popstar; and without anything else to it rather than saying "i like you so much, thanks". And then you are happy he answers a 1 sentence mail.

    Seriously, you're like the best example of cliché liberallists and you make me want to puke.

    Sorry i had to say it...

    PS: I hate english i can't express myself right i sound like a child...
    You should never take any political posts here seriously. Very few people here, including myself, know jack shit about politics and are living in a very different world from the real one. They develop their political opinions and ideas mainly through internet articles from biased websites and other untrustworthy databases.

    Everyone here often criticizes politicians, but to be honest I would much rather trust the current politicians than the people on these forums who spew bullshit 24/7.

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