Sure, people are gonna flock to the FOTM's as in all games, but at the very least the game would be less about who played the game the longest. And there would be at least some diversity, which we currently do not have(just who's grinded more).
Regrind everytime the game is changed? Or you could just stick to your playstyle, like me for example, and try and point out the issues to the developers instead..
You're quite conservative aren't yah? Current shit is so obviously broken and yet any changes seems rather terrifying for you. If something is broken you try to fix it, it's as simple as that. Also people bitching about balance is a lot better than 0 diversity AND no balance.So, lets say they add in prestige classes. What happens then? People are just going to bitch when they choose a prestige class that doesn't issue the WTFPWNBBQ to everyone they fight. The result? People will continue to come to the forums in droves and bitch about how they are forced to take certain prestige enhancements if they want to be viable in PvP. Same shit, different day.
No one has things maxed out so, no that's not quite the case. And no every player in the game does not have super grinded chars, the issues lies with how ridiculously OP those that have grinded a lot are. I'm fairly confident I can still beat pretty much everyone that hasn't grinded up their magic like crazy, because really that's when player skill starts being out of the question. But that's a hell of a long way to go from being able to beat maybe all of the whole server except for maybe just 10 people, with already then a underdeveloped char.And what about the grind? Well, I think some people just feel like they cannot win a PvP encounter unless they have maxed stats and maxed every single skill in the game. Well guess what? You're wrong. Take it from me as im probably one of the greener noobs on the NA server right now (my character is two weeks old) and I have already racked up 28 kills and only 15 deaths and I haven't even spent a great deal of time looking for PvP yet. Some of the kills I have gotten came against guys that tried to gank me when I was mining!!!! NEVER have I once been killed by someone that uses magic, though im sure it will happen soon and im sure I will not like it very much. But people on these forums seem to act as if every single player running around in the game has maxed every school of magic and wears dragon armor and shoots arrows out of their asshole for 300 dmg, yada yada yada. I have not seen one character like this yet. Even the times I have died, most all of my fights have been VERY close.
Also I'm guessing you're playing on US1, where the problems are not quite as dire I guess.
The grind is not nearly as bad as it used to be, IMO a hard cap and some slightly faster progressing with melee mastery's and we'd have a pretty good balance in grind. It's still the fucking gap that is the issue though.Would I be opposed to reducing grind? Obviously not, im a noob and I look forward to maxing alot of shit on my toon. But on the other hand, I don't think the grind is what the real issue is with the game. I think the issue based on my judgement so far is that there isn't alot else to do other than grind or PvP. Maybe, if AV could somehow fix that problem (wont be easy), the game wouldnt seem to grindy. But as it stands, im definately feeling the grind and thats why im starting to back off it and just enjoy the game. And so far, its been a blast.
Merely trying to help save the game from imminent doom.But people would just rather bitch and moan I guess thats what they have more fun doing. To each his own, but I know one thing and that I will be busy playing the game and having fun despite all these "mysterious" phantom issues I keep reading about on the forums that are coming from a bunch of people that probably do not even play the game.
Also you'll mature in time and see what I mean, come back in like 6 months or so.
[QUOTE=Zushakon;4266172]Well yes, fucking face it, there is always gonna be a bunch of people that bitch about balance. But letting everyone do everything instead is absolutely no solution to the problem and quite frankly is just retarded.[quote]
That's your opinion though, and its not necessarily a fact. Fun is subjective, and some people like having the freedom to do what they want rather than being pigeonholed into some kind of build or FOTM template. Darkfall is a different game, it promised to be a game that imposed less restrictions on player freedom and in my opinion AV has done a fairly good job at this. I still think the game caters too much towards clans though, but thats basically my only gripe so far at this stage.
What you do with your time is completely up to you. But its not really fair to suggest that people who play the game alot more and actually build their character up should not have any advantages.Sure, people are gonna flock to the FOTM's as in all games, but at the very least the game would be less about who played the game the longest. And there would be at least some diversity, which we currently do not have(just who's grinded more).
Think of it this way for a moment. Lets say you and I both go to a gym where we both pay a $30 dollar monthly fee for membership. Let's say that you work out for 5 days a week using max intensity and efficiency. You also eat a healthy diet of good protein, carbs, fats allocation etc. Now, lets say that I go to the gym about 4 times each month, and when I go I just sit around socializing and not doing much of anything with any sort of intensity. I eat at KFC every day for lunch too. Now, given that current scenario, do you feel like I should be entitled to the same body that you earned through your hard work simply because we both pay $30 bucks a month to go to the gym? The answer is NO.
Like it or not, fair or unfair, thats life. If you want instant gratification then go play one of the several thousand games that offer it. Darkfall is different though, and for some of us thats a good thing.
How often does that really happen? The solution is for AV to balance the skills and spells that are already in the game, then we will see more diversity.Regrind everytime the game is changed? Or you could just stick to your playstyle, like me for example, and try and point out the issues to the developers instead..
Because of the competitive nature of these kinds of games, players will usually take a path that has a best chance to lead to success. Its human nature. SWG had 32 professions at one point, but the majority of PvPers only used a small handful of those professions because all the other ones either sucked or were just flat out broken.
Haven't they already said that they are fixing the grind next patch? I mean, did you read what the OP said?No one has things maxed out so, no that's not quite the case. And no every player in the game does not have super grinded chars, the issues lies with how ridiculously OP those that have grinded a lot are. I'm fairly confident I can still beat pretty much everyone that hasn't grinded up their magic like crazy, because really that's when player skill starts being out of the question. But that's a hell of a long way to go from being able to beat maybe all of the whole server except for maybe just 10 people, with already then a underdeveloped char.
I guess, all I know is that the PvP that I have been experiencing has been nothing like what is being described on these forums, thus far. I have not seen anyone that made me think to myself "WOW, its going to take me years of grinding to beat that guy".Also I'm guessing you're playing on US1, where the problems are not quite as dire I guess.
Its almost like some of you havent played the game at all and are just going around repeating the same BS that you read from other clueless morons on these forums.
Name me an MMO that does not have a gap that isn't F2P. Out of the many MMO's that I have played (SWG pre-cu,EQ1, Lineage II, Runescape, EvE) all of these have been alot worse in terms of grind than what im currently experiencing in DF. And the gap between noobs and vets in some of those games was borderline ridiculous.The grind is not nearly as bad as it used to be, IMO a hard cap and some slightly faster progressing with melee mastery's and we'd have a pretty good balance in grind. It's still the fucking gap that is the issue though.
WoW has spoiled some of you guys though, so I don;t necessarily fault you. You just came from a shitty background is all.
Good luck.Merely trying to help save the game from imminent doom.
I watched Valroth's video about DF the other day (oh btw AV, I LOVE DF now give me my 5K ), and I WISH DF was like that. To me tho its a game with great potential thats sadly not been even half realised yet. Full loot + open world pvp is the main draw of the game + the potential for sandbox play. However too many barriers are put in peoples way to fully enjoy that - getting up to scratch with your character should be a relatively short time investment, but AV should ensure there are long term PVE goals for players too. They can have both pve treadmilling and retain players that don't want to spend too much time PVEing if they get the balance right, or simply offer alternative pve goals for players
They need to add more sandbox features. To me this means consequences for actions, things that impact the actual world and the way you interact with other players, and force players to make choices. You have to force players make choices or everyone ends up identical. No cap must have sounded like freedom and sandoxy to AV when they were designing DF, but it just didn't work out that way. The alignment system is one very simple but important feature that also needs revamping, as is the race alliance system. Economy needs looking at (the market stalls they mentioned sound good tho, hope they make it into the June expansion). High end magic needs balancing so its not a requirement but an alternative pvp style. Lesser or GM should be viable on their own (with specialisations). There needs to be more than 1 way to play so characters are different to each other. They need to add or tweak the magic specs so they have + and - elements like archery does. Territorial control needs looking at. I would especially like some form of cost involved in holding cities or hamlets that don't get used, or are far apart from each other. It doesn't make sense that the cities run themselves. It should be very hard to hold more than 1 city for any group of players. Hamlets should be there for small clans, and change hands between different clans quite frequently unless they invest a lot in building defences there (hired guards, or some cost involved in keeping a tower there). There should be natural communities were players converge, maybe a capital of Agon in the centre thats open to blues from any race, and has good reasons for players to hang out there
AV really need to look at how fun their game is for people day to day. Gear grind, spell grind, HP grind etc, travel time, pvp hotspots etc. AV can still have pve'ers but they need to look at creating natural choke points or places that are worth controlling, not just for people leveling their chars tho as pvp spots. Anyway, I'm not even using my free 14 days yet as I know it will be pointless unless I spend days, weeks grinding to get my char half decent again
DARFALL IS A BREATH OF FRESH AIR. If it changes this, it will blend in with all the other suck out there atm.
but man Cathalo, we have a one track mind. I was just following your argument and was going to respond to the other idiot by explaining exactly what you have just stated here.
"wa,wa,wa, but its not fair, the people who played more have stronger characters, wa, wa, wa and we should all be equal"
damn whiners sound like some damn MMO Marxists. Probably the same people who cry in life about how unfair everything is.
back to my point. In the real world, is everyone equal? Should everyone have a hardcap in employment salary, or body fitness, or skill in life because there are too many people who don't like to work as hard?
yes this is an MMO. I know Darkfall is not real life. But just as there is a good reason there is no hardcap in real life. There is a good reason not to put one in darkfall.
LIKE REALLY LISTEN TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING zushakon! you want a hardcap, so that newer people can eventually catch up, because its not fair how powerful a true veteran is. So in your solution, where this hardcap is placed, you will have successfully allowed everyone to catch up but you would destroy the game.
Character diversity is what makes darkfall awesome. You never know what your gonna get when you try to sneak up on that person mining. He can be some noob, a fair fight where you barely win, or some seasoned vet that WTF pwns you.
You know, kind of like in real life. There are some people that workout harder in the gym, or who work harder at school and make more money, or who work harder at getting some fine ass, while there are people like you zushakon, who instead of working harder to get the same thing, you give up, flail your arms in the air like some weird bird and demand that we limit the success of those hardworking people so that your sorry ass can catch up. And after you catch up, you realize it was never the skills, it was that you just sucked.
Darkfall would be so fucking boring, if they had hardcaps and fotm's. god, it would suck. Everyone you would run into would be using the same damn builds, AND THIS WOULD LEAD TO DESTROYING ANOTHER OF DARKFALL'S KEY ADVANTAGES. if there is a hardcap and fotm, THE GAME WILL BECOME MUCH MORE GEAR BASED. OR AT LEAST GEAR WILL BECOME MUCH MORE IMPORTANT IN PVP.
think about it. with harcaps and fotm's. Two fighters will be almost identical in character progression, stats, spells. Assuming the players are of equal pvp skill, the fight then comes back down to gear. if one has leather and the other has dragon, well let's just say WELCOME TO WORLD OF DARKCRAFT.
Personally, knowing there is some super vet out there with much higher stats, gives me a drive and goal to push for. I want to be just like him so i can fucking kill him one day. if there are hardcaps, everyone will reach them in 6 months and look around and realize there is NO FUCKING CHARACTER PROGRESSION, there is no drive, there is no goal. JUST ONE BIG SOCIALIST CHARACTER POOL of BORINGNESS.
for the record I've played since day 1 launch in EU and i probably have lower stats than most who start fresh on NA. So i'm not trying to protect my precious op vet here. I just know i play darkfall, because there aren't any hardcaps or fotm's. I play darkfall because, if I play long enough, i know my character will eventually be strong enough to fend off 3 v 1. I play darkfall because i don't have to make 5 different characters to try different skills or paths and i don't have to keep regrinding when i decide to play a different way. i play darkfall because THERE IS some super vet out there who thinks he's so bad ass so that one day i may train hard enough to beat his sorry ass and put him in his place. If a hardcap is installed, it destroys all of this.
And for fucks sake, technically speaking there is a hardcap in place. I mean very generally speaking of course. But shit, when your character reaches
1) all max attributes
2) at least 2 elementals maxed with r50's and r90's maxed, also intensify.
3) 2H mastery maxed
4) Archery maxed.
there is your fucking hardcap. Its been in the game the whole time. YOU JUST SUCK.
Sure it will take about a year to reach because of #1, but once your at this point your pretty much on even playing field with anyone on the server. If you have these basics, all the rest isn't life or death in a fight. The other vet might have every school of magic maxed out BUT SO FUCKING WHAT, HE CAN'T USE EVERY FUCKING SPELL IN THE GAME DURING YOU FIGHT.
TLDR SUMMARY; in games, in work, with women, with money, with plain old luck, there WILL ALWAYS BE PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPERBLY BETTER THAN YOU. its just a part of life. There will be people like you that suck and cry for hardcaps. But thats the beauty. There is this wide spectrum with everything in between that makes your pvp encounters always unpredictable and exciting. Introducing hardcaps and fotm's will destroy darkfall's unique advantage.
WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER PVP WITH HARDCAPS, you will be able to predict with 90%+ certainty what that characters will be using as far as startegy or spells and everyone will have a predetermined strategy to counter it. This will in turn make the game much more gear based.
INTRODUCING HARDCAPS = REMOVING THE EXCITING UPREDICTABLITY IN PVP
why must you damn whiners come to our beloved darkfall and try to turn it into the piece of crap from which you came. Go back to your piece of crap and leave our world of Agon as dangerous, un predictable, and filled with wtfpwn vets as possible, so that one day i may get my revenge on those vets. Not because aventurine installed a hardcap but because i worked hard as hell, trained for months and earned that victory!
now, gtfo, no hardcaps here, go play wow. sorry, had to say it.
bah nvm, as I skim through your post it's full of retardness and fail, I'm afraid you're beyond salvation when it comes to logic reasoning.
Last edited by Zushakon; 05-16-2010 at 21:09.
They don't have to do a hardcap, but it would increase diversity and make fights more about player skill than char level. By letting everyone level everything what happened is the nerdiest of the nerds set the pace for everyone else. People levelled everything as fast and as efficiently as possible rather than actually playing the game. So there was less pvp, then when they actually started playing they set the standard people have to reach to catch up, and the gap is widening all the time. 99% of the players still playing (and nearly everyone I knew ingame) exploited bugged mobs for gold then macro'd over night. Now mobs are harder to kill for players and macroing = ban and these kids with macro'd chars are actually desperate to prevent people giving them a challenge by catching up. Its sad for a full loot FFA game that people don't want challenging pvp, that they would rather their character makes up for their mistakes. I don't want a better char or gear than anyone in DF..I want pvp that I lose or win based on how I or my team plays
Anyway, there won't be a hardcap now of course. Specialisations will do tho if they are balanced.
EXPLAIN to me why it should be a short time investment to build your charcter from scratch?
why because you say so?
why because you don't have as much time and its not fair?
why because you come from other crap MMO's and this is different?
why because you need a maxxed charcter before you can play a game?
why, so everyone can be the same in 6 months?
while your busy answering those, also answer me this one. If its a short time investment to max your character, and everyone is done in 6 months, explain to me WHY EVEN BOTHER WITH CHARACTER PROGRESSION? In that case, why shouldn't aventurine just make every character maxed from day one? This in between crap makes no sense to me. You either want character progression, which should take time, involvement and evolve over long time spans. Or you want everyone to have a quickly maxed character to even the playing field, in other words NO CHARACTER PROGRESSION.
just because you are accustomed to the idea of quick character development, does not mean THATS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. Aventurine should not be catering to these spoiled brats UNLESS IT SELLS OUT AND CARES ONLY ABOUT MONEY.
There are people out there like me who enjoy LONG TERM CHARACTER PROGRESSION. Where it feels like your character is never done. It feels like your character grows with you. This type of thinking is in line with what a true persistent world is as well, constantly evolving including characters which train, age and grow ever powerful like some ancient fighting master.
Problem is, wow had such an enormous player base, many of it consisting of first time MMO'rs, that everyone is babied and spoiled. You bastards have destroyed the MMO scene for some of us hardcore old school people.
besides, your second half of that sentence "and ensure long term PVE goals" sums it all up. You are one of those wow scrubs that is trying to dilute the world of agon with your "its not fair, cry, cry, cry" mentality.
sure i wouldn't mind some long term pve goals. but we DO NOT NEED TO INSTANT CHARACTER PROGRESSION, WHERE YOU MAX YOUR TOON IN 2 MONTHS.
I'm not going to get into a discussion with someone who goes into all caps mode or repeats the same things over and over without actually thinking about both sides of the issue
All I'll say is, "getting up to scratch" with a relatively short time investment is not the same as no char progression. You can have short and long term goals for people that like long progression, goals that don't affect pvp as much. HP to me should be a short term goal. High end magic should be a long term goal but rather than I WIN buttons, it should be merely an alternative play style.
and, actually I like long term goals THAT AFFECT PVP AS WELL (oh shit all caps mode).
again, why should HP be a short term goal. Because you get wtfpwned by a few 400 hp'ers? again, you have no argument.
You just can't stand that someone is much more advanced than you and want everyone to be relatively fair. so go play another game.
I, on the other hand, like that there are others that are much more advanced than me. this is why i like darkfall.
HERES SO MORE ALL CAPS MODE BEFORE I LEAVE. ENJOY! AND QQ MORE.
Otherwise you simply substitute gaining levels for gaining stats - no matter how you name it, it still produces the same problems of level-based games.
I prefer games were the way you play is the most important factor, rather than time invested in it. I don't see the point of letting scrubby players get kills they don't deserve, just because they left clicked on exploited mobs more or macro'd. Challenge to me should come directly from the players you're playing against, not numbers behind the scenes
Personally I don't see why the HP cap needs to be 450. 300 would be more reasonable. I've never heard of a game with strong player skill based pvp were the HP varies widely from player to player. HP is always balanced with other elements, such as reduced damage or slower movement. Important spells like Witches brew should not require grinding up a whole school to 75. R50, 90, 100 nukes should have damage based on the size of AOE to make skill more of a factor, OR make the damage at max with a direct hit, and drop sharply if you miss. Intensifies should be long term goals but should be very minor in their effect. Same with Archmage and weapon masteries. All the unlocks for stats could be brought down a bit, Fitness etc. Even if AV made all these changes there would still be just as much long term goals for players, and they would still be more powerful than less grinded chars. Pvp would be more based on player skill tho, teamwork and numbers rather than the individual chars. There would still be just as much long term goals for players but they wouldn't influence pvp as much, or force people to macro or grind
All the magic schools should have their own specialisations that makes their damage roughly like it is now, but with negatives associated too to encourage people to make choices.
and as far as "not numbers behind the scenes". now you've really showed how delusional you are. (all caps mode incoming) ALL RPG PERISTANT MMO'S WILL HAVE NUMBERS BEHIND THE SCENES. You are not going to change this. ever. And you constantly contradict yourself. If a scrub is a longterm vet and difficult to beat because of his higher hp, then is that not a challenge against that player?
regardless. Even if you still claim its a number and not the player that is making it challenging. This whole HP thing is really getting out of hand. It may take a long time to get up to where some of those vets are as far as HP. But you people need to stop drinking the fucking kool aid. Max HP is not the end all be all in a pvp match. so you have 300 HP and he has 400 HP. Whats that, a difference of 2 successful nukes? or 3 melee swings? I mean shit, for a person who cries about player skill so much, you should see how a more skillful player could easily dodge a bit better, and be just slightly more acurate enough to land those 2 nukes and YOUR WHOLE HP, STAT CRY GOES OUT THE WINDOW.