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  1. #181
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    For the love of god AV let us edit our pose in these sections grr

    Anyways, the point is what you want, diversity, isn't achieved without balance but can be achieved without a cap. You can get balance without a cap in games that don't have massive amounts of unique skills such as stuns, roots, snares, etc.
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  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    What we have now are problems caused by a huge lack of balance. With balance people naturally filter to the play styles they perfer because all play-styles are useful and need, and you can't possibly use every skill all the time (time wise or skill bar wise). What we have is a lack of balance, nothing more nothing less.
    No, if everything was balanced at the moment, most people would still use everything. Buffs, heals, transfers, damage types, magic, melee, archery, etc., etc. Why? Because they'd all be equally useful and they'd be allowed to do so.

    I don't care if you can't use them at one time. That has nothing to do with the issue. You can't do anything at one time in any system.

    You want the "golden child" character.

    Others want tradeoffs. (You know... Those things that make for good games.)

    You don't want tradeoffs. You admitted that when you said something about wanting to adapt to all situations.

    Keep on "debunking", Great One.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    No, if everything was balanced at the moment, most people would still use everything. Buffs, heals, transfers, damage types, magic, melee, archery, etc., etc. Why? Because they'd all be equally useful and they'd be allowed to do so.
    No they wouldn't because there would be no point to. With balance you get redundancy for having everything. Why use a bow when bolts are just as effective or visa versa? Why train up all buffs if you can't use all buffs effectively? Why train 1h and 2h if both are basically equally as effective? There are trade offs in the system, just not hard coded in a way that says you can't have access to these skills because you have those already.

    Note: Allowing everyone to have all buffs active is a balance issue, having access to them is not. A person probably shouldn't be able to have more than 3 self buffs active on them at one time, 5-7 buffs total. Theres trade offs in the system, just not hard coded you can't have this skill because you have that one.

    Same thing with sword and board vs 2h. The trade off comes from skill usage and not being able to effectively switch weapons quick enough to pop out skills then switching back. 1h and board skills should exist in the game that require you to have both equipped to activate, thus the trade off but not a limit in access.

    And I do want trade offs, but not skill access limitations or trade offs that lead to character > player like you want.
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  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    No, if everything was balanced at the moment, most people would still use everything. Buffs, heals, transfers, damage types, magic, melee, archery, etc., etc. Why? Because they'd all be equally useful and they'd be allowed to do so.

    I don't care if you can't use them at one time. That has nothing to do with the issue. You can't do anything at one time in any system.

    You want the "golden child" character.

    Others want tradeoffs. (You know... Those things that make for good games.)

    You don't want tradeoffs. You admitted that when you said something about wanting to adapt to all situations.

    Keep on "debunking", Great One.
    I'm going to have to agree with this. The game has been going on for over a year without any major type of tradeoff system. Specializations were "getting there", but they were implemented in a "counter" system that only makes you see your character's particular benefits in a specific situation, which I guess is specialization but not in the right direction.

    If you can have everything, there will always be that set of skills that simply having will make your character a lot more viable and versatile. For example it's pretty much a given that you should "get at least two r50 nukes, sacrifice, WB, Confusion, maxed melee and archery".

  5. #185

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    Taken from the mount thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Opinion or fact?
    Absolutely fact. No tradeoffs make for crappy MMOs. Darkfall has helped to prove that.

    Opportunity costs allow dynamic gameplay, so that more people can be deeply involved. That helps keep a massive multi-player game alive, ya know.

    ---------

    Patterns of Game Design by Staffan Björk and Jussi Holopainen

    Planning

    The following patterns deal with ways either to encourage the players to plan their actions beforehand or to limit the scope of planning to balance the gameplay.

    Tradeoffs

    The player must choose between several different options and compare values against each other.

    For choices to be interesting in games, they need to be challenging. One way choices can be difficult to do is if they have different sorts of advantages or the advantages are coupled with disadvantages. In this case, there does not have to be one choice that is easily identifiable as the best, and players have to do tradeoffs instead.


    http://books.google.com/books?id=IFQ...deoffs&f=false

    -----

    Darkfall doesn't have tradeoffs except for a specialization system that is nothing more than classes, especially considering that they've said the goal is to move people into more defined roles and longer term choices. While that is better than what we have now, I'd rather not be lumped into preset specializations. On the other hand, hybrids should not dominate. They should be a master-of-none, instead of a the current master-of-everything.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    No, if everything was balanced at the moment, most people would still use everything. Buffs, heals, transfers, damage types, magic, melee, archery, etc., etc. Why? Because they'd all be equally useful and they'd be allowed to do so.

    I don't care if you can't use them at one time. That has nothing to do with the issue. You can't do anything at one time in any system.

    You want the "golden child" character.

    Others want tradeoffs. (You know... Those things that make for good games.)

    You don't want tradeoffs. You admitted that when you said something about wanting to adapt to all situations.

    Keep on "debunking", Great One.
    You already have tradeoffs. Pigeon holing someone into one playstyle is NOT the way to accomplish anything. Gear and specializations is great. They could add more skills like rage (healing with bandages?) and give more choices for trade offs. This system is so unique it's infant.

    no one can adapt to all situations. You capitalizing on one guys goof doesn't make your case.

    Having crafters being unable to explore dungeons or defend themselves properly are not "tradeoffs" and the WORST thing you could do to this game.

    NO THANK YOU to those kinds of trade offs.

    THANK YOU for pioneering a great character system AV!


    PS> I would like to see the system expanded upon. Id like to see discussions of what people think about necromancers or paladins, but not in a system where you don't have to be only 1 thing forever.
    Last edited by Draxous; 04-22-2010 at 01:26.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    Darkfall doesn't have tradeoffs except for a specialization system that is nothing more than classes, especially considering that they've said the goal is to move people into more defined roles and longer term choices. While that is better than what we have now, I'd rather not be lumped into preset specializations. On the other hand, hybrids should not dominate. They should be a master-of-none, instead of a the current master-of-everything.
    I hope you know a skill cap system would give you preset specializations...

    People usually call them "templates" in case you didn't know.


    Darkfall even has them.

    And if you think people really enjoy making long term decisions they can never take back, then things like race change wouldnt be so highly anticipated.

    Again... NO THANK YOU.
    Last edited by Draxous; 04-22-2010 at 01:15.

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxous View Post
    You already have tradeoffs. Pigeon holing someone into one playstyle is NOT the way to accomplish anything. Gear and specializations is great. They could add more skills like rage (healing with bandages?) and give more choices for trade offs. This system is so unique it's infant.

    no one can adapt to all situations. You capitalizing on one guys goof doesn't make your case.

    Having crafters being unable to explore dungeons or defend themselves properly are not "tradeoffs" and the WORST thing you could do to this game.

    NO THANK YOU to those kinds of trade offs.

    THANK YOU for pioneering a great character system AV!


    PS> I would like to see the system expanded upon. Id like to see discussions of what people think about necromancers or paladins, but not in a system where you don't have to be only 1 thing forever.
    You are short-sighted with your tradeoffs. Who said a crafter couldn't have any combat skills? I certainly didn't.

    Unique?

    AV didn't pioneer anything. Anyway...

    Currently, I can be a "Destroyer" with a bit of Fire. Oh wait....

    Let's see... I can be master-of-all, or take a preset specialization. Man, you're right! Epic pioneering by AV!

    I'd rather make my own build, but with the actual thought of real tradeoffs that have more depth than just worrying about encumbrance. But, who needs tradeoffs? I'll just master every, single skill.

    Weak carrot.

  9. #189
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    Looking forward to the discussion on grind tomorrow.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by nisco17 View Post

    If you can have everything, there will always be that set of skills that simply having will make your character a lot more viable and versatile. For example it's pretty much a given that you should "get at least two r50 nukes, sacrifice, WB, Confusion, maxed melee and archery".
    Because the game isn't balanced. With a proper cap system would potentially have all that as well. The fact that you have to have 2 r50 nukes proves theres imbalance (healing is a different animal). Having 1 50nuke and a leveled bolt spell should be what the system dictates as a good mage for 90% of situations. Having more than 1 r50 nuke should only be good for sieges, and even then not required.

    JCanto, the whole reason for the specialization system is because people like you complained about lack of trade offs. Well there you go, trade offs that don't completely screw your character over and doesn't force you to do things you don't like or are imbalanced forever.
    Turning Villages into Regional sources of Conflict and PvP hot Spots
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    Thanks AV for fixing safe zones. It seems like the danger levels you talked about before beta were enough! Now FIX VILLAGES!

  11. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Because the game isn't balanced. With a proper cap system would potentially have all that as well. The fact that you have to have 2 r50 nukes proves theres imbalance (healing is a different animal). Having 1 50nuke and a leveled bolt spell should be what the system dictates as a good mage for 90% of situations. Having more than 1 r50 nuke should only be good for sieges, and even then not required.

    JCanto, the whole reason for the specialization system is because people like you complained about lack of trade offs. Well there you go, trade offs that don't completely screw your character over and doesn't force you to do things you don't like or are imbalanced forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Because the game isn't balanced. With a proper cap system would potentially have all that as well. The fact that you have to have 2 r50 nukes proves theres imbalance (healing is a different animal). Having 1 50nuke and a leveled bolt spell should be what the system dictates as a good mage for 90% of situations. Having more than 1 r50 nuke should only be good for sieges, and even then not required.

    JCanto, the whole reason for the specialization system is because people like you complained about lack of trade offs. Well there you go, trade offs that don't completely screw your character over and doesn't force you to do things you don't like or are imbalanced forever.
    Xtire, we all know what the wonderful specialization system is for (besides just laziness on their part). And... You can't screw your character up if skills can be dropped.

    I'll wait for your "But I don't want to keep grinding skills!" post... Even though that's currently what you're doing.

  12. #192
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    Great... 10 pages of the same handful forum freaks arguing with eachother.. again.
    Charax

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    Xtire, we all know what the wonderful specialization system is for (besides just laziness on their part). And... You can't screw your character up if skills can be dropped.

    I'll wait for your "But I don't want to keep grinding skills!" post... Even though that's currently what you're doing.
    Its not currently what I'm doing because if I want to switch builds I don't have to regrind to do so.
    Turning Villages into Regional sources of Conflict and PvP hot Spots
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    Thanks AV for fixing safe zones. It seems like the danger levels you talked about before beta were enough! Now FIX VILLAGES!

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Its not currently what I'm doing because if I want to switch builds I don't have to regrind to do so.
    You're currently grinding every skill, because you can. You being caught exploiting mobs likely proves that. You also assume that you'd have to regrind every skill if there was a cap. Who says they'd all be so imbalanced you'd be switching every patch? I played DAoC for 6 years and never needed to switch an "OP" spec.

    We have to be happy with classes soon, anyway, so everyone needs to get used to it.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCatano View Post
    You're currently grinding every skill, because you can. You being caught exploiting mobs likely proves that. You also assume that you'd have to regrind every skill if there was a cap. Who says they'd all be so imbalanced you'd be switching every patch? I played DAoC for 6 years and never needed to switch an "OP" spec.

    We have to be happy with classes soon, anyway, so everyone needs to get used to it.
    I didn't exploit mobs to grind, I exploited mobs for gold to buy gear/get gear. You know VGs are good for that. Anyways, yea classes with a choice is better than classes with no choice. I'm more happy with the specialization system flushed out than a hard cap.
    Turning Villages into Regional sources of Conflict and PvP hot Spots
    Xpiher's DF:UW Suggestion Thread


    Thanks AV for fixing safe zones. It seems like the danger levels you talked about before beta were enough! Now FIX VILLAGES!

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