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View Full Version : From the No Shit Dept: Guns Cause Crime



Durindana
12-23-2008, 22:52
Shouldn't take rocket scientists to figure this one out, but then NRA lobbying is intended to produce a misinformed public.

Anyway, linky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/opinion/23tue2.html)

edit: the study referred to (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf) (pdf alert)

StainlessSteelRat
12-23-2008, 22:55
/sigh

Whose turn is it to educate the newbie?

Vessol
12-23-2008, 22:55
Gun control is still BS

Trikk
12-23-2008, 22:59
Please for the love of god, give Americans their own forum where they can have these retarded discussions along with "do you believe in Evolution?" and "Al Gore invented global warming".

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:00
Oh nose.
Run for the hills.

Someone go call Matriel away from beta; his services are required.

Yobaj
12-23-2008, 23:01
Gun control is still BS
"I know better than studies just because I say so"

Falokis
12-23-2008, 23:03
Oh nose.
Run for the hills.

Someone go call Matriel away from beta; his services are required.Pretty much what I was thinking. Wish I was beta'ing instead of forumfalling.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:03
Pretty much what I was thinking. Wish I was beta'ing instead of forumfalling.
That's because your member number > mine

Vessol
12-23-2008, 23:05
"I know better than studies just because I say so"

I know better because I don't follow biased studies.
"A study prepared by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a bipartisan group headed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York and Mayor Thomas Menino of Boston, should finally put that myth to rest."

Jangang
12-23-2008, 23:07
Without clicking any of your links... Could you explain how the presence of a gun causes crime? Please...

Unless you live somewhere where guns are illegal it doesn't, period. Nuff said, end of story... Unless you can show me how that is.

Durindana
12-23-2008, 23:08
Oh nose.
Run for the hills.

Someone go call Matriel away from beta; his services are required.

he'd just rant his usual baseless Wayne LaPierre bullshit anyway.

Guns incite crime; Heller was wrong, there is no personal right to firearms in the Second Amendment; and guns are good for the following things, in frequency order:

Purchase by criminals > Stolen from lawful owners and sold > Taken by force from homeowners and used against them > Killing children or fools in accidents > Defending homeowners from intruders

Apex Vertigo
12-23-2008, 23:09
Everyone knows there was no crime before gunpowder was invented. Duh.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:10
he'd just rant his usual baseless Wayne LaPierre bullshit anyway.

Guns incite crime; Heller was wrong, there is no personal right to firearms in the Second Amendment; and guns are good for the following things, in frequency order:

Purchase by criminals > Stolen from lawful owners and sold > Taken by force from homeowners and used against them > Killing children or fools in accidents > Defending homeowners from intruders
You forgot the role of 'substitute for lack of large penis'

Durindana
12-23-2008, 23:10
Without clicking any of your links... Could you explain how the presence of a gun causes crime? Please...

Unless you live somewhere where guns are illegal it doesn't, period. Nuff said, end of story... Unless you can show me how that is.

the study you didn't read demonstrates the flow of guns from places with irresponsible voters, where guns are easy to obtain, across state lines to places where they aren't.

So crimes that would otherwise be difficult/impossible to commit in a given locality (armed robbery is a hell of a lot harder without a firearm) suddenly become possible. Thanks, Texas and Virginia voters! You killed my neighbor!

Jangang
12-23-2008, 23:10
he'd just rant his usual baseless Wayne LaPierre bullshit anyway.

Guns incite crime; Heller was wrong, there is no personal right to firearms in the Second Amendment; and guns are good for the following things, in frequency order:

Purchase by criminals > Stolen from lawful owners and sold > Taken by force from homeowners and used against them > Killing children or fools in accidents > Defending homeowners from intruders

I know that I'd certainly like to use one to kill anyone with opinions like yours.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:10
Also, why are we feeding trolls?
You all know better than this by now.

Shame on you nobs.

Arkh
12-23-2008, 23:10
So, states with antigun laws adjacent to states without have more gun problems. Yup, it makes sense. And this conclusion is already in "More guns less crime" which was edited in what ? 2000 ?
Woot.
But 2 adjacent states which relax their gun laws have a really big impact on crime.

So, instead of focusing on adding gun laws in states which don't have them, the solution is to abolish them in states which are against guns.

Arkh
12-23-2008, 23:12
Everyone knows there was no crime before gunpowder was invented. Duh.
People were fighting dinosaurs at this moment.

Jezrith
12-23-2008, 23:13
/sigh

Whose turn is it to educate the newbie?

Not it. I don't feel like going through actual FBI crime statistics that proves this study is fail for Umpteenth time...


So crimes that would otherwise be difficult/impossible to commit in a given locality (armed robbery is a hell of a lot harder without a firearm) suddenly become possible. Thanks, Texas and Virginia voters! You killed my neighbor!

You're welcome, we do our best. But don't forget to give Florida their props too.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:13
People were fighting dinosaurs at this moment.
I'm sure there were guns in 'Turok'.

Arkh
12-23-2008, 23:14
I'm sure there were guns in 'Turok'.
Turok is a game. Knights had only swords and shield to fight the evil dinosaurs so they could loot the gold and save the princess.

Apex Vertigo
12-23-2008, 23:14
People were fighting dinosaurs at this moment.

Dinosaurs are a myth created by Satan to fool scientist into becoming Atheist, everyone knows this.

Jangang
12-23-2008, 23:14
People were fighting dinosaurs at this moment.

So the Chinese killed off the Dinosaurs with gunpowder eh?

I thought as much!

Arkh
12-23-2008, 23:16
/me just started reading the study : Texas is under US average for exported guns / 100k.

Lol, charts with green / red colors : way to lie with statistics. And charts by state is stupid as a lot of county have different rules than their state.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:19
/me just started reading the study : Texas is under US average for exported guns / 100k.

STOP!
Do not do it; just stop right there.
You are opening a can of worms I warn you.

Durindana
12-23-2008, 23:22
/me just started reading the study : Texas is under US average for exported guns / 100k.

Lol, charts with green / red colors : way to lie with statistics. And charts by state is stupid as a lot of county have different rules than their state.

I said Texas because it sucks. The source state doesn't really matter.

Nice second point there - one of those shiny color charts indicates almost no states permit local restrictions

Caffy
12-23-2008, 23:23
<cliche>
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
</cliche>

How many gun related, violent crimes are commited by registered gun owners again?

Surely if guns cause crime, it must be 100%, amirite?

Temet nosce
12-23-2008, 23:23
Pay attention folks, the Op is a perfect example of a well aimed trolling attempt. Not only does it suit the audience, but it provokes an automatic response.

Many congratulations on the excellent trolling Op.

[LoD] EE
12-23-2008, 23:29
Shouldn't take rocket scientists to figure this one out, but then NRA lobbying is intended to produce a misinformed public.

Anyway, linky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/opinion/23tue2.html)

edit: the study referred to (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf) (pdf alert)

Sounds like you are the misinformed one. I dont know of a single gun that has robbed a bank, car jacked someone or raped someone. Usually that takes a person to do those things, without people, the gun would be no more dangerous than a bag of marshmallows.

Caffy
12-23-2008, 23:37
EE;2189591']Sounds like you are the misinformed one. I dont know of a single gun that has robbed a bank, car jacked someone or raped someone. Usually that takes a person to do those things, without people, the gun would be no more dangerous than a bag of marshmallows.

Guns kill people sir. They are evil.

It is truly disgusting that Americans should own firearms of any kind. Why should they? Our government and social systems have progressed to a point that there is no longer a need for citizens to own firearms. When was the last time you heard of our government abusing or in any way unfairly oppressing its people? Mistakes like Ruby Ridge and Waco happen but the government policy isn't responsible. If the citizens had done as they were told those things would not have happened!

If only Americans would walk lock-step with the social and governmental authorities and adopt a more European form of gun control we would be a lot better off! Besides, the word militia in the second amendment is intended to mean the national guard or other government regulated body of people bearing arms. NOT the common man. This is obviously the intent of the framers of the
constitution. They wanted to protect hunters not have citizens armed against the government. As we all know grocery stores now make hunting obsolete.

We have police forces and National Guard who are very capable of taking care of any and all crime. This is a proven FACT. Any citizen who believes he can defend himself better than the police is just simply wrong. Besides all citizens who fight back just get hurt.


Alas however, there are many twisted people who won't give up their firearms and maintain that it is their constitutional and moral right to own a gun for self protection. Some VERY sick radical elements believe that the second amendment and gun ownership is to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens! The framers surely could not have meant that common peasants should be able to protect themselves from those who were making a brand new government! Remember the government is sovereign not the common man. Otherwise why have a government at all?

Gun owners are all murderers.

alfaroverall
12-23-2008, 23:40
The vast majority of studies that have been conducted (you can check the FBI website to see some of them) have shown significant increases in violent crime when gun control is instituted, and decreases in violent crime when it was removed. One contradictory study doesn't imply that the entire world has suddenly changed.

Villa
12-23-2008, 23:45
This thread is a chestnut.
The OP did real good.

Jarlemis
12-23-2008, 23:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ&feature=rec-fresh

Forgin
12-23-2008, 23:49
I'm fine with Americans wanting guns because they are too big pussies to beat a burglar to death with their bare hands, but for the love of god please don't make another thread about it!
Now we will get all the Americans saying guns somehow equal freedom and all the bitchy treehugging yuropeans claiming guns=many mean people and much crying and flaming later Matriel enters and completly WTFPAWNS all of you shitfaces with his godlike powers and this thread ends up locked.


/thread plx

Sbrafk
12-23-2008, 23:50
Canada doesn't have guns, and we're doing all right!

Forgin
12-23-2008, 23:51
Canada doesn't have guns, and we're doing all right!

No you're not..

NEWSFLASH: You are the suckiest country in the world and everyone laughs at you, only france is worse.

[LoD] EE
12-24-2008, 00:02
Guns kill people sir. They are evil.

It is truly disgusting that Americans should own firearms of any kind. Why should they? Our government and social systems have progressed to a point that there is no longer a need for citizens to own firearms. When was the last time you heard of our government abusing or in any way unfairly oppressing its people? Mistakes like Ruby Ridge and Waco happen but the government policy isn't responsible. If the citizens had done as they were told those things would not have happened!

If only Americans would walk lock-step with the social and governmental authorities and adopt a more European form of gun control we would be a lot better off! Besides, the word militia in the second amendment is intended to mean the national guard or other government regulated body of people bearing arms. NOT the common man. This is obviously the intent of the framers of the
constitution. They wanted to protect hunters not have citizens armed against the government. As we all know grocery stores now make hunting obsolete.

We have police forces and National Guard who are very capable of taking care of any and all crime. This is a proven FACT. Any citizen who believes he can defend himself better than the police is just simply wrong. Besides all citizens who fight back just get hurt.


Alas however, there are many twisted people who won't give up their firearms and maintain that it is their constitutional and moral right to own a gun for self protection. Some VERY sick radical elements believe that the second amendment and gun ownership is to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens! The framers surely could not have meant that common peasants should be able to protect themselves from those who were making a brand new government! Remember the government is sovereign not the common man. Otherwise why have a government at all?

Gun owners are all murderers.

I didnt know Trolls could also be comedians.

Villa
12-24-2008, 00:08
No you're not..

NEWSFLASH: You are the suckiest country in the world and everyone laughs at you, only france is worse.
Is it worse than Dagestan?

Legatosoren
12-24-2008, 00:43
Shouldn't take rocket scientists to figure this one out, but then NRA lobbying is intended to produce a misinformed public.

Anyway, linky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/opinion/23tue2.html)

edit: the study referred to (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf) (pdf alert)

Guns cause crimes? That's an overstatement. People with quote "bad" intentions cause crimes. Try not to overstate things.

Forgin
12-24-2008, 00:46
Guns cause crimes? That's an overstatement. People with quote "bad" intentions cause crimes. Try not to overstate things.

You decided to bump this thread to say that?
could at least have made it a worthy flame...

Villa
12-24-2008, 00:49
75% of the people in this thread should change their usernames to Captain Obvious.
Of course, 95% of the people in this thread need to jump off a cliff, but that is a subject for a new thread once Methuselah and his sidekicks have gone to bed.

WhiteGuy
12-24-2008, 01:01
I'm fine with Americans wanting guns because they are too big pussies to beat a burglar to death with their bare hands, but for the love of god please don't make another thread about it!
Now we will get all the Americans saying guns somehow equal freedom and all the bitchy treehugging yuropeans claiming guns=many mean people and much crying and flaming later Matriel enters and completly WTFPAWNS all of you shitfaces with his godlike powers and this thread ends up locked.


/thread plx

LOL yeah my first instinct is to hand to hand combat a guy with a gun haha. :lmao:


You decided to bump this thread to say that?
could at least have made it a worthy flame...

Oh the irony.

Killuminati
12-24-2008, 01:35
/sigh

Whose turn is it to educate the newbie?

Somebody go wake up Matriel from his cave...

MinusInnocence
12-24-2008, 01:49
the study you didn't read demonstrates the flow of guns from places with irresponsible voters, where guns are easy to obtain, across state lines to places where they aren't.

So crimes that would otherwise be difficult/impossible to commit in a given locality (armed robbery is a hell of a lot harder without a firearm) suddenly become possible. Thanks, Texas and Virginia voters! You killed my neighbor!No. The gun laws wherever the fuck you live killed your neighbor. Maybe YOU are the irresponsible voter for not demanding that the government keep out of your private affairs, creating absurd legal hoops for law-abiding citizens to jump through just to be able to protect their families.

Fascist bootlickers like you who cry foul to the Nanny State whenever someone hurts you always seem to forget it is the Nanny State that is directly responsible for the chaos in your life.

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 01:52
I said Texas because it sucks. The source state doesn't really matter.

Nice second point there - one of those shiny color charts indicates almost no states permit local restrictions

Fuck you. Maybe if you weren't to pussy to carry a gun and hadn't voted no on guns your neighbor or even you could have fought back. Instead your neighbor is dead and its your fault because you cry at the slightest form of violence.

Paralda
12-24-2008, 01:53
Without clicking any of your links... Could you explain how the presence of a gun causes crime? Please...

Unless you live somewhere where guns are illegal it doesn't, period. Nuff said, end of story... Unless you can show me how that is.

Cuz, y'know, anecdotal evidence and "logic" (and the logic you use is in no way realistic) beat out studies.

Then again, I'm not pro-gun control. I'm just anti-people who are anti-gun control.

Megumi
12-24-2008, 01:59
Correction: Guns make committing crime easier.

Trikk
12-24-2008, 02:00
All of you: stop posting.

Jargo
12-24-2008, 02:03
Guns are fine.

Helgeran
12-24-2008, 02:06
Without clicking any of your links... Could you explain how the presence of a gun causes crime? Please...

Unless you live somewhere where guns are illegal it doesn't, period. Nuff said, end of story... Unless you can show me how that is.
If I get the urge to kill someone I have loads of time changing my mind when I'm:
Fisticuffing the person or looking for a good weapon. If I carried a gun I could kill him in a few seconds with very little effort. It's about comfort really.

MinusInnocence
12-24-2008, 02:25
If I get the urge to kill someone I have loads of time changing my mind when I'm:
Fisticuffing the person or looking for a good weapon. If I carried a gun I could kill him in a few seconds with very little effort. It's about comfort really.It sounds like your own personal weakness is the root cause of crime, not any tools you might have on hand to facilitate your sickness.

KonohaFlash
12-24-2008, 02:28
Please for the love of god, give Americans their own forum where they can have these retarded discussions along with "do you believe in Evolution?" and "Al Gore invented global warming".

last i checked, this thread was posted on the 'off-topic' section of a public internet forum. as long as the thread doesnt violate the rules of the TOS then there's no reason why discussions like these should be taken elsewhere.

if you dont appreciate threads like these in the OT then you are very much free to GTFO and build your own forum where you can have highly intelligent *chuckle* discussions with your buddies. or just stay in ADD

and im not even american

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 02:31
and im not even american

Are you by chance Hawaiian then?

WARNING: This is a joke, I am perfectly well aware that Hawaii is part of the U.S. and Konoha does not signify Hawaiian origins simply because it seems to rhyme with aloha.

Vanno
12-24-2008, 06:01
he'd just rant his usual baseless Wayne LaPierre bullshit anyway.

Guns incite crime; Heller was wrong, there is no personal right to firearms in the Second Amendment; and guns are good for the following things, in frequency order:

Purchase by criminals > Stolen from lawful owners and sold > Taken by force from homeowners and used against them > Killing children or fools in accidents > Defending homeowners from intruders

I suppose a baseless Wayne LaPierre rant is superior to a baseless Mayor Doucheberg rant, but I guess that is a subjective matter of opinion. As for your interpretation of the second amendment, I find it to be delirious.

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 06:03
http://www.familienett.com/showthread.php?t=2181
Ahem

heroshade
12-24-2008, 06:07
So what you're saying is, if I buy a gun, I'm obviously only buying to knock over a liquor store and not possibly to defend myself and my family from the people who get their bigger, faster, and more effective guns, (who will get their guns illegally if gun control is ever put into place)? Really? If thats the case, fuck a gun, I'll take on that burgler in the night with a kitchen knife or a CO2 canister.

Fuck you and all you other pro gun control pussies, guns don't cause crime, criminals cause crime.

cosimo84
12-24-2008, 06:11
http://www.familienett.com/showthread.php?t=2181
Ahem

you dont mess with Generals

losinglife
12-24-2008, 06:23
I know better because I don't follow biased studies.
"A study prepared by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a bipartisan group headed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York and Mayor Thomas Menino of Boston, should finally put that myth to rest."

i know right... anyone who sees those 2 names and DOESNT think its biased as fuck, is an idiot anyways.

Byggin
12-24-2008, 06:24
I buy guns to shoot them. If you step in the way of it why is that my problem?

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 06:26
i know right... anyone who sees those 2 names and DOESNT think its biased as fuck, is an idiot anyways.

Yea the Society of Science or some such name that does not set my bias senses tingling found exact opposite results

Lethn
12-24-2008, 06:30
How many fucking times do I have to tell idiots that it's not gun control we need, it's reliable bloody self-defense laws that don't render the law abiding citizen helpless, I'm all for simple licensing and stuff. But fuck, your average thug can get their hands on whatever they want if they are careful enough and America seems to be the land of privatized high-tech weaponry and body armour at the moment ( check out Dragonskin ) if the government removes the ability for someone who obeys the law to get their hands on this stuff legally then quite frankly your fucked.

It's like I've always said here when it comes to self-defense in my country, my teachers have said if your going to defend yourself, do it in a back alley, with no witnesses and no cameras, because the self-defense laws are just so stupidly vague that you don't even know what minimum force is supposed to be.

Think about it, if it was pretty dangerous times and people could go out and buy dragonskin if they didn't have a criminal record then that could well save their lives, especially if the criminal that decide to rob them or whatnot decided to shoot them because they had enough fun messing them around.

heroshade
12-24-2008, 06:33
How many fucking times do I have to tell idiots that it's not gun control we need, it's reliable bloody self-defense laws that don't render the law abiding citizen helpless, I'm all for simple licensing and stuff. But fuck, your average thug can get their hands on whatever they want if they are careful enough and America seems to be the land of privatized high-tech weaponry and body armour at the moment ( check out Dragonskin ) if the government removes the ability for someone who obeys the law to get their hands on this stuff legally then quite frankly your fucked.

It's like I've always said here when it comes to self-defense in my country, my teachers have said if your going to defend yourself, do it in a back alley, with no witnesses and no cameras, because the self-defense laws are just so stupidly vague that you don't even know what minimum force is supposed to be.

Think about it, if it was pretty dangerous times and people could go out and buy dragonskin if they didn't have a criminal record then that could well save their lives, especially if the criminal that decide to rob them or whatnot decided to shoot them because they had enough fun messing them around.
I like the law here in Arizona. If somebody is in your house FUCKING SHOOT THEM! DON'T CHECK, OBLITERATE THEM, THEY ARE YOUR ENEMY, DESTROY YOUR ENEMY! DON'T WORRY IF THEY HAVE THEIR BACK TO YOU, KILL THEM!!!

losinglife
12-24-2008, 06:38
Yea the Society of Science or some such name that does not set my bias senses tingling found exact opposite results

hahaha man you are a fucking idiot.

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 06:45
hahaha man you are a fucking idiot.

That was an informative and well thought out response that has rebutted my statement. In summary: fuck you.

Edit: wait, after review, your the fucking guy I quoted, unless your post that I quoted was sarcastic (which would make you the idiot), I was agreeing with you... what the hell?

gievo
12-24-2008, 06:47
Its simple, if someone with aids was about to rape you or a friend you would want a gun to protect yourself.

+highest murder rates in the world happen in gun free zones

Feyrband
12-24-2008, 06:50
i must have missed it, but where does this prove that consumers buying guns legally contributes to criminals getting them illegally?

losinglife
12-24-2008, 06:51
That was an informative and well thought out response that has rebutted my statement. In summary: fuck you.

Edit: wait, after review, your the fucking guy I quoted, unless your post that I quoted was sarcastic (which would make you the idiot), I was agreeing with you... what the hell?

/hugs 08er

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 06:52
/hugs 08er

Can someone please explain to me how this guy isn't just insane?

Vanno
12-24-2008, 07:01
Can someone please explain to me how this guy isn't just insane?

Confused =! insane. Could also be drunk or high, or dumb. I actually like the guy, but sometimes I have no clue what the fuck he is talking about.

IthroZada
12-24-2008, 07:02
Confused =! insane. Could also be drunk or high, or dumb. I actually like the guy, but sometimes I have no clue what the fuck he is talking about.
Ok, I was just horribly disoriented about being insulted by the guy I agreed with

Feyrband
12-24-2008, 07:04
privatized high-tech weaponry and body armour at the moment ( check out Dragonskin )

pretty cool stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNY1MtsVwG8&eurl=http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Thrill_KIll
12-24-2008, 07:08
he'd just rant his usual baseless Wayne LaPierre bullshit anyway.

Guns incite crime; Heller was wrong, there is no personal right to firearms in the Second Amendment; and guns are good for the following things, in frequency order:

Purchase by criminals > Stolen from lawful owners and sold > Taken by force from homeowners and used against them > Killing children or fools in accidents > Defending homeowners from intruders


And that's where you just fell on your face. Way to have the reading comprehension of a retarded monkey, and display refusal to accept the conditions under which that was written, illustrating that is EXACTLY what it does.

Luckily for the rest of us, the interpretation factor is over with, and the Supreme Court set it straight.

Ungraylessness
12-24-2008, 07:12
A recent study conducted by the Marshmallow fun Company shows that marshmallows are actually less dangerous than firearms. However when marshmallows are introduced illegally into a marshmallow-free zone, yummy fun related deaths increase dramatically, represented by our colored data charts below.

losinglife
12-24-2008, 14:09
Confused =! insane. Could also be drunk or high, or dumb. I actually like the guy, but sometimes I have no clue what the fuck he is talking about.

awwwwww /superlove

AngusFinch
12-24-2008, 14:20
Why don't gun battles break out inside police stations and military bases? Everyone has guns, so of course they must all have the intention of killing each other! But I know the Swedish have an in depth military understanding so I shouldn't question their wisdom on security and tactical matters :lmao:

Bissen
12-24-2008, 14:38
Funny how when I first started OT'ing I had a grudge on guns. These days I find myself supporting Americans and their right to bear arms. But for the cause they were meant. TO FUCKPWN YOUR GOVERNMENT AND TEAR DOWN THE BANKS!!!

Forgin
12-24-2008, 15:03
Debating gun control with Americans just does not work, and thus should not be done.

Sabbathius
12-24-2008, 15:14
Oh, god, not that nonsense again.

Look at Canada. We have one gun per person in Northwest Territories, statistically speaking, and virtually no crime. Britain has extremely tough gun laws, as does New Zealand, but it didn't deter crime.

Yes, guns kill people. Take away guns, which you won't accomplish, you can't take guns away from the criminal class by enacting a law, criminals by definition don't care what law says. So you've taken away guns, they use knives. You take away knives, now we eat with our hands like animals, but at least people aren't getting stabbed. So they switch to screwdrivers and axes. We ban those as well, and we now live in huts because we can't have screwdrivers and hammers and nails and stuff. Then people start using rocks and flint knives, like they have done millions of years ago. So we ban rocks and trees, and now we are living in a huge desert full of sand, where we promptly die. The end of human race. Why? Because we started blaming inanimate objects for our own shortcomings.

Sallek
12-24-2008, 15:19
Lol. Guns killing people.

"I swear officer, the gun just jumped out of my hand and started fireing at everyone in the room. BAD GUN! BAD!"

Stupid fucking argument. Like you could really take away our guns anways. Good luck.

Delwyn
12-24-2008, 15:23
Man, it'd suck to live in a country that is so crap you need a gun to feel safe from your own countrymen.

Sabbathius
12-24-2008, 15:50
Man, it'd suck to live in a country that is so crap you need a gun to feel safe from your own countrymen.

It's not the people, it's population density.

Norway: 12 per 1 square km.

Canada: 9 per 1 square km, nobody lives in the north, no crime, plenty of crime in Ontario and Quebec, which is where 50% of the population is.

USA: 73 per 1 square mile, or 73 per 1.6 square km or 45 per 1 square km.

If you prefer it more scientifically, look at it from particle dynamics point of view. Take Canada, where you have 9 people per sq km, but in the north it is 1 per 10 sq km, because nobody likes to live there. So, take a 4 of those, and arrange in a cube. What are the odds of those 4 guys meeting in those 40 sq km? Not that great, especially if it's woods and they're not allowed to shout or signal in any way. Then, take US where it's mostly 20 people per sq km, so the odds of any of those meeting any other is much higher. Hence, more squabbling over resources, which are finite, and hence violence and hence crime.

So it has nothing to do with people or country, it has to do with population density. Ultimately it is the peoples' fault, if they didn't hump like bunnies and reproduced like rabbits, which is largely religion's fault, if you think about it, as many religions prohibit contraceptives, and government's fault as they pass laws that prohibit abortions, even in case of rape. So there's plenty of blame to pass around, but it has nothing to do with guns, or people as individuals or country in which they reside.

Lord Belphegor
12-24-2008, 15:53
Shouldn't take rocket scientists to figure this one out, but then NRA lobbying is intended to produce a misinformed public.

Anyway, linky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/opinion/23tue2.html)

edit: the study referred to (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf) (pdf alert)

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Stop inbreeding brain dead children and throw in some education, and you won't have idiots using guns to kill people.

Common sense.

Spinewire
12-24-2008, 16:37
I'm sure there were guns in 'Turok'.
The Cerebral Bore (http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cerebral_bore2.jpg) cuts down on crime.

Villa
12-24-2008, 16:39
I think it's fair to summarise that guns don't kill people; a truck load of c4 does.

AngusFinch
12-24-2008, 16:50
Man, it'd suck to live in a country that is so crap you need a gun to feel safe from your own countrymen.
What about being so afraid of your own countrymen that you have to force them to hand in their legal arms? You generalize all of America but you forget about Wisconsin, Michigan (excluding Detroit), and Minnesota. The secret to leading a happy, peaceful life is being Scandinavian or at least devoting yourself to the passion for cheese.


According to the gallup-europe PDF document at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#cite_note-burdenofcrime2005-62 Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands and Belgium had some of the highest crime rates in the EU in 2004 and 2005. I guess Holland and Scandinavia must be the most magical places in the world.

Milo Hobgoblin
12-24-2008, 21:28
Yes.. didnt you all know..

guns kill, rob and rape people all the time.

heroshade
12-24-2008, 21:36
If guns cause crime, pencils make mistakes, cars are the cause for every accident ever to have taken place, and beds wet themselves.

Malishan
12-24-2008, 22:03
"I know better than studies just because I say so"

No it's more about me not giving a crap what YOUR studies say, common sense and liberty mean more to me. Guns cause crime... lol. Does the phrase "the devil made me do it" mean anything to you?

shadowy
12-24-2008, 22:16
Funny thing is, that the study doesn't exactly say that guns cause crimes, rather guns turn those crimes into more violent ones.

[LoD] EE
12-24-2008, 22:29
It's not the people, it's population density.

Norway: 12 per 1 square km.

Canada: 9 per 1 square km, nobody lives in the north, no crime, plenty of crime in Ontario and Quebec, which is where 50% of the population is.

USA: 73 per 1 square mile, or 73 per 1.6 square km or 45 per 1 square km.

If you prefer it more scientifically, look at it from particle dynamics point of view. Take Canada, where you have 9 people per sq km, but in the north it is 1 per 10 sq km, because nobody likes to live there. So, take a 4 of those, and arrange in a cube. What are the odds of those 4 guys meeting in those 40 sq km? Not that great, especially if it's woods and they're not allowed to shout or signal in any way. Then, take US where it's mostly 20 people per sq km, so the odds of any of those meeting any other is much higher. Hence, more squabbling over resources, which are finite, and hence violence and hence crime.

So it has nothing to do with people or country, it has to do with population density. Ultimately it is the peoples' fault, if they didn't hump like bunnies and reproduced like rabbits, which is largely religion's fault, if you think about it, as many religions prohibit contraceptives, and government's fault as they pass laws that prohibit abortions, even in case of rape. So there's plenty of blame to pass around, but it has nothing to do with guns, or people as individuals or country in which they reside.

You are considering all of the US.

Take densely packed areas, such as Compton, 9,225.6 per square mile with a total of 93,493 people in the city. Its crime rate is quite high.

AngusFinch
12-24-2008, 22:42
EE;2195929']You are considering all of the US.

Take densely packed areas, such as Compton, 9,225.6 per square mile with a total of 93,493 people in the city. Its crime rate is quite high.

I think you're responding to a troll there. Lol, hes blaming rural evangelicals for crime and is possibly claiming population density is literal.

losinglife
12-25-2008, 05:54
The Cerebral Bore (http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cerebral_bore2.jpg) cuts down on crime.

that gun was delicious

Spinewire
12-25-2008, 06:01
the noise it made was always followed by someone kicking off about how retardedly op it was

[LoD] EE
12-25-2008, 13:56
I think you're responding to a troll there. Lol, hes blaming rural evangelicals for crime and is possibly claiming population density is literal.

I was and he shut up, you see the magic there?

Helgeran
12-25-2008, 14:09
It sounds like your own personal weakness is the root cause of crime, not any tools you might have on hand to facilitate your sickness.
Most people work that way (from what I can tell) and there is no reason to deny it. Do you think it's right to punish people for thoughts? I'd rather have murders go unmade because people are lazy and guns are bothersome to find than find out who's more hot blooded.

hardboiled
12-25-2008, 14:45
Most people work that way (from what I can tell) and there is no reason to deny it. Do you think it's right to punish people for thoughts? I'd rather have murders go unmade because people are lazy and guns are bothersome to find than find out who's more hot blooded.

And I wouldn't.
Woah, that kind of ends the debate. Someone should have told this to Matriel years ago.

Saiith
12-25-2008, 14:52
Everyone knows there was no crime before gunpowder was invented. Duh.

There can be more than one cause for the same phenomenon. Duh.

Helgeran
12-25-2008, 14:54
And I wouldn't.
Woah, that kind of ends the debate. Someone should have told this to Matriel years ago.
It's a good argument for having small nations and that laws should be local.

hardboiled
12-25-2008, 14:58
It's a good argument for having small nations and that laws should be local.

Well yeah, that would pretty much solve all problems. Too bad that for many power is not a means but an end.

DR.NUMBERS
12-25-2008, 15:29
Without clicking any of your links... Could you explain how the presence of a gun causes crime? Please...

Unless you live somewhere where guns are illegal it doesn't, period. Nuff said, end of story... Unless you can show me how that is.

The gun emits mind altering, crime inducing radio waves which compel the otherwise normal, law-abiding citizen to commit a crime!

Yin
12-25-2008, 17:27
Wild wild west.

Americans and guns. Let them be. Eventualy both problems will be eradicated by themself.

Its like in that anecdote: you are riding at the train in coupe with old woman and young woman. Old woman has danger of heart infract if you keep the window closed, caused by heat - young women has astma and dies from cold if you open a window.

Solution. Open a window, wait for a while, close a window. Both your problems solved.

tallefred
12-25-2008, 18:00
Wild wild west.

Americans and guns. Let them be. Eventualy both problems will be eradicated by themself.

Its like in that anecdote: you are riding at the train in coupe with old woman and young woman. Old woman has danger of heart infract if you keep the window closed, caused by heat - young women has astma and dies from cold if you open a window.

Solution. Open a window, wait for a while, close a window. Both your problems solved.

Alternative solution: Keep window closed, when the first problem is solved rape the second problem.

KonohaFlash
12-25-2008, 18:28
Guns are simply tools that make killing people a whole lot easier.

Think. Without the internet, would you be sending mail to friends and relatives as much as you do now? Would you even bother? I know you douches probably dont bother even now but you get the drift

Guns do not cause crime, rather, guns encourage the perpetuation of some crimes.

Crazy as they were, if those kids in the campus shootings in the US only had butter knives, how many would they have been able to kill? One? maybe two before they were gangbanged by the other students? If they knew that they couldnt kill as many as they would have been able to if they had guns, is it a far stretch to think that maybe they wouldnt even have tried go on those killing sprees before /wristing?

btw im all for keeping guns at home for protection

Nevron
12-25-2008, 20:07
Guns are simply tools that make killing people a whole lot easier.

Think. Without the internet, would you be sending mail to friends and relatives as much as you do now? Would you even bother? I know you douches probably dont bother even now but you get the drift

Guns do not cause crime, rather, guns encourage the perpetuation of some crimes.

Crazy as they were, if those kids in the campus shootings in the US only had butter knives, how many would they have been able to kill? One? maybe two before they were gangbanged by the other students? If they knew that they couldnt kill as many as they would have been able to if they had guns, is it a far stretch to think that maybe they wouldnt even have tried go on those killing sprees before /wristing?

btw im all for keeping guns at home for protection

While the general basis of your argument is true, it hinges on the existence of guns, not the control of guns. Cho from the Virginia Tech shootings broke at least two gun control laws. In other words, he obtained the firearms illegally and is one shining example of gun control not working as intended.

Crabs Magee
12-25-2008, 20:30
Guns kill people sir. They are evil.

It is truly disgusting that Americans should own firearms of any kind. Why should they? Our government and social systems have progressed to a point that there is no longer a need for citizens to own firearms. When was the last time you heard of our government abusing or in any way unfairly oppressing its people? Mistakes like Ruby Ridge and Waco happen but the government policy isn't responsible. If the citizens had done as they were told those things would not have happened!

If only Americans would walk lock-step with the social and governmental authorities and adopt a more European form of gun control we would be a lot better off! Besides, the word militia in the second amendment is intended to mean the national guard or other government regulated body of people bearing arms. NOT the common man. This is obviously the intent of the framers of the
constitution. They wanted to protect hunters not have citizens armed against the government. As we all know grocery stores now make hunting obsolete.

We have police forces and National Guard who are very capable of taking care of any and all crime. This is a proven FACT. Any citizen who believes he can defend himself better than the police is just simply wrong. Besides all citizens who fight back just get hurt.


Alas however, there are many twisted people who won't give up their firearms and maintain that it is their constitutional and moral right to own a gun for self protection. Some VERY sick radical elements believe that the second amendment and gun ownership is to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens! The framers surely could not have meant that common peasants should be able to protect themselves from those who were making a brand new government! Remember the government is sovereign not the common man. Otherwise why have a government at all?

Gun owners are all murderers.


You're wrong.

I own a firearm. I have never once used it against a human. I use it for recreation - shooting down cans and the like. It's fun.

I hunt. Yes, grocery stores make hunting somewhat obsolete. But you can't find everything at a grocery store. My family makes deer sausage every year from the deer we kill, and it is delicious. We don't kill for the sport, we kill for the food. There is nothing wrong with that - it is just as acceptable as eating meat gained from a processing plant - even more so, as the deer in this case are killed as quickly and painlessly as possible, and are allowed to roam free their entire lives. We are not murderers.

Also, what is with the anti-American tone this forum has? I don't care for my home country much, but only I can take so much of it. The general view is that Americans are simple-minded, slow creatures who commit all the fucking atrocities. Here's a news flash: EVERY country has it's share of die-hard conservative radicals. Want a list of some (in my opinion) horrible crimes performed in other countries?

This one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7535840.stm) for starters, and it didn't even use a gun!

Hmmm...hows about one from Germany? Ooooo, I got a good one! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) This one used guns, but was still performed by Germans. And Italians.

How about Greece? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7770189.stm) I like this one, because they are trying
to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens!

And how bout that Tibetan protest in China and the like?

Should we forget about the Islamic suicide bombers? And the riots and such they started over that one cartoonist? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy)

Stop grouping in all Americans with the damned fucking hicks down in the south. All of us are not like that.

I don't know what I hope to accomplish with this on Forumfall...but whatever.

kyrilius
12-25-2008, 20:44
Gun control is a lost cause.
If my government has guns, I want guns.
Guns don't shoot people, people do.
Try taking the guns away from the people who have them, see where that gets you.

StManTiS
12-25-2008, 21:06
what matters is no the gun, or th bullet but the people on either end

on gun control:
if the people don't have weapons than it is already a militaristic government that does

Jester814
12-25-2008, 23:54
HEY GUYS LOOK! There's finally ONE "study" from a montage of completely biased sources confirming just what anti-gun people have always wanted to be confirmed, because they are the ones who paid for the study to happen and paid for the specific results! Rejoice! The facts are finally exactly as the anti-gunners have made them up!

Let's ignore the multitude of facts and surveys completely disproving this one over the past several years and instead say that this one is the one true, correct one!

Idiots.

bloodfuel
12-26-2008, 00:22
Guns kill people sir. They are evil.

It is truly disgusting that Americans should own firearms of any kind. Why should they? Our government and social systems have progressed to a point that there is no longer a need for citizens to own firearms. When was the last time you heard of our government abusing or in any way unfairly oppressing its people? Mistakes like Ruby Ridge and Waco happen but the government policy isn't responsible. If the citizens had done as they were told those things would not have happened!

If only Americans would walk lock-step with the social and governmental authorities and adopt a more European form of gun control we would be a lot better off! Besides, the word militia in the second amendment is intended to mean the national guard or other government regulated body of people bearing arms. NOT the common man. This is obviously the intent of the framers of the
constitution. They wanted to protect hunters not have citizens armed against the government. As we all know grocery stores now make hunting obsolete.

We have police forces and National Guard who are very capable of taking care of any and all crime. This is a proven FACT. Any citizen who believes he can defend himself better than the police is just simply wrong. Besides all citizens who fight back just get hurt.


Alas however, there are many twisted people who won't give up their firearms and maintain that it is their constitutional and moral right to own a gun for self protection. Some VERY sick radical elements believe that the second amendment and gun ownership is to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens! The framers surely could not have meant that common peasants should be able to protect themselves from those who were making a brand new government! Remember the government is sovereign not the common man. Otherwise why have a government at all?

Gun owners are all murderers.
Thats the kind of thing hitler said to the people.

PlugInMonster
12-26-2008, 00:23
This thread is more flame bait, note the easy attack on the NRA as though they cause criminals to commit their evil deeds. You will pry away my gun from my cold dead hands.

IthroZada
12-26-2008, 00:29
The gun emits mind altering, crime inducing radio waves which compel the otherwise normal, law-abiding citizen to commit a crime!
So that's how Condemned got started

Jester814
12-26-2008, 00:33
hahahahahahahahahahahaha at caffy

gun owners are all murderers? hahahahahaha

What about all your perfect euro police and military who bring their weapons home with them every night? What about the Swiss?

You are truly an a grade a idiot.

The Supreme Court of the USA just recently ruled, and the papers written by the founding fathers of the USA both support that gun ownership is an individual -RIGHT-. Good luck with your blatant ignorance in life.

losinglife
12-26-2008, 14:04
Inc matriel...... sometime ;)

saltwaterteffy
12-26-2008, 14:25
guns dont cause crime! FLIP FLOPS AND PALM FRONDS CAUSE CRIME

PROOF: http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/16656569/detail.html

Ziegler
12-26-2008, 15:08
Guns kill people sir. They are evil.
You're a sheep.
I fuck sheep.
So Fuck you!



It is truly disgusting that Americans should own firearms of any kind. Why should they? Our government and social systems have progressed to a point that there is no longer a need for citizens to own firearms. When was the last time you heard of our government abusing or in any way unfairly oppressing its people? Mistakes like Ruby Ridge and Waco happen but the government policy isn't responsible. If the citizens had done as they were told those things would not have happened!


Wait...if you are anti gun, I can only assume you are a rabid Bush hater as well, and you are going to say that the government doesnt scare you one bit in the past 8 years?
and..."if the citizens had done what they were told"...:bang:
Ruby Ridge..the man refused to break the law for 6 months of pestering by undercover agents, and finally succumbed and used a hack saw to cut the end off a shotgun. That certainly warrants a military response.
Waco...they were amassing weapons. But were no credible threat. Except for their religious beliefs.



If only Americans would walk lock-step with the social and governmental authorities and adopt a more European form of gun control we would be a lot better off! Besides, the word militia in the second amendment is intended to mean the national guard or other government regulated body of people bearing arms. NOT the common man. This is obviously the intent of the framers of the
constitution. They wanted to protect hunters not have citizens armed against the government. As we all know grocery stores now make hunting obsolete.


Right...the founders were talking about the national guard...since they werent formed til 1903. The fact that they has just fought a war largely due to the help of militia men (private citizens who owned arms)...had nothing to do with it.


The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.


I posted it, but I doubt the term..straight from the horses mouth...is lost on you.




We have police forces and National Guard who are very capable of taking care of any and all crime. This is a proven FACT. Any citizen who believes he can defend himself better than the police is just simply wrong. Besides all citizens who fight back just get hurt.

People like you is why America is dead and deserves the fate it is going to suffer shortly.


Alas however, there are many twisted people who won't give up their firearms and maintain that it is their constitutional and moral right to own a gun for self protection. Some VERY sick radical elements believe that the second amendment and gun ownership is to insure the government stays in line and does not oppress its citizens! The framers surely could not have meant that common peasants should be able to protect themselves from those who were making a brand new government! Remember the government is sovereign not the common man. Otherwise why have a government at all?

Gun owners are all murderers.
Let's just hope that this was really a post to show just how stupid anti gun people are. *shudders* otherwise..you are probably the scariest thing I have ever come across....but luckily, you have no weapons, and I have lots...so I am not afraid of you.


I'm fine with Americans wanting guns because they are too big pussies to beat a burglar to death with their bare hands, but for the love of god please don't make another thread about it!

So I cant even use my swords, or maces, or crossbow, knives, forks, spoons, leg stump? I have to use my bare hands?


Funny how when I first started OT'ing I had a grudge on guns. These days I find myself supporting Americans and their right to bear arms. But for the cause they were meant. TO FUCKPWN YOUR GOVERNMENT AND TEAR DOWN THE BANKS!!!
At least you know why....but just wait...Obama is going to agree to the UN world wide gun ban. That's when the real fun will begin. :D


Funny thing is, that the study doesn't exactly say that guns cause crimes, rather guns turn those crimes into more violent ones.

Which is more violent. Stabbing someone multipe times and them slowly bleeding out..or a bullet to the head and instantly dead?

Jinpachi
12-26-2008, 16:45
The vast majority of studies that have been conducted (you can check the FBI website to see some of them) have shown significant increases in violent crime when gun control is instituted, and decreases in violent crime when it was removed. One contradictory study doesn't imply that the entire world has suddenly changed.I don't doubt what you're saying, but the FBI isn't excactly a neutral source. And I really wonder how they managed to study that properly.

Anyways, your last sentence is a little ironic. I can imagine the results of the studies you're talking about would be very different in a lot of countries.

Jinpachi
12-26-2008, 16:51
You people that didn't realise Caffy's post is sarcasm, you might be legally retarded. It is important that you seek help before you hurt yourself or others.

Carl Ragadamn
12-26-2008, 16:51
Inc matriel...... sometime ;)
I doubt he can put down the cake long enough to summon the will to fight all the stupid spewed in this thread.

I can imagine the results of the studies you're talking about would be very different in a lot of countries.

You are correct, but then again alot of countries have their populace in a position of only being able to hope that the leaders do the right thing.

Jinpachi
12-26-2008, 17:04
You are correct, but then again alot of countries have their populace in a position of only being able to hope that the leaders do the right thing.Yeah pretty much, good point.

Americans should start utilising that right though ;)

Carl Ragadamn
12-26-2008, 17:08
Yeah pretty much, good point.

Americans should start utilising that right though ;)

If you look at the history of the American Revolution, you will realize that we have a long way to go, until a large enough portion of the population has had enough. I hope it happens sooner rather than later, but short of a crystallizing event we are still a good bit off.

You cannot teach people to love freedom over security, that is something only each individual can find for themselves.

StainlessSteelRat
12-26-2008, 18:16
There can be more than one cause for the same phenomenon. Duh.

Damn, where you been? Beta?

jonyak
12-26-2008, 19:41
ah yes... the old your study is biased so I am gonna counter it with an equaly biased source argument.

gotta love this place.

Timthelord
12-26-2008, 20:08
ah yes... the old your study is biased so I am gonna counter it with an equaly biased source argument.

gotta love this place.

Where would we get lulz form if everyone argued with valid points?

padge
12-26-2008, 21:25
Wild wild west.

Americans and guns. Let them be. Eventualy both problems will be eradicated by themself.

Its like in that anecdote: you are riding at the train in coupe with old woman and young woman. Old woman has danger of heart infract if you keep the window closed, caused by heat - young women has astma and dies from cold if you open a window.

Solution. Open a window, wait for a while, close a window. Both your problems solved.
no you just killed 2 people

Timthelord
12-26-2008, 21:55
no you just killed 2 people

Exactly, now there are no more worries.

Zokten
12-26-2008, 22:26
Durindana smells like a tool.

padge
12-26-2008, 22:58
You're wrong.

I own a firearm. I have never once used it against a human. I use it for recreation - shooting down cans and the like. It's fun.

I hunt. Yes, grocery stores make hunting somewhat obsolete. But you can't find everything at a grocery store. My family makes deer sausage every year from the deer we kill, and it is delicious. We don't kill for the sport, we kill for the food. There is nothing wrong with that - it is just as acceptable as eating meat gained from a processing plant - even more so, as the deer in this case are killed as quickly and painlessly as possible, and are allowed to roam free their entire lives. We are not murderers.

Also, what is with the anti-American tone this forum has? I don't care for my home country much, but only I can take so much of it. The general view is that Americans are simple-minded, slow creatures who commit all the fucking atrocities. Here's a news flash: EVERY country has it's share of die-hard conservative radicals. Want a list of some (in my opinion) horrible crimes performed in other countries?

This one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7535840.stm) for starters, and it didn't even use a gun!

Hmmm...hows about one from Germany? Ooooo, I got a good one! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) This one used guns, but was still performed by Germans. And Italians.

How about Greece? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7770189.stm) I like this one, because they are trying

And how bout that Tibetan protest in China and the like?

Should we forget about the Islamic suicide bombers? And the riots and such they started over that one cartoonist? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy)

Stop grouping in all Americans with the damned fucking hicks down in the south. All of us are not like that.

I don't know what I hope to accomplish with this on Forumfall...but whatever.

wow, what a douche. 1st you quote yourself in your sig, and then rant about people casting generalizations, as you close with a generalization. Bravo your ignorance knows no bounds.