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Twistybundle
12-08-2008, 14:27
Hello. I was just wondering how many people play WH online out there?

I know its not anywhere near as good as Darkfall sounds, but it has a few factors that make it better than WoW, for example keep raids and open PVP. Anyway would just like to see who plays it out there.

fRdz
12-08-2008, 14:28
Warhammer is an abandoned corpse of fail.

NapalmEnema
12-08-2008, 14:29
LOLhammer more like it amiright?

Twistybundle
12-08-2008, 14:31
Nah its okay, its fun to play with some friends. I am definately moving to Darkfall, but WH is just a temporary solution as well as medieval 2 total war :)

NapalmEnema
12-08-2008, 14:32
Nah its okay, its fun to play with some friends. I am definately moving to Darkfall, but WH is just a temporary solution as well as medieval 2 total war :)

Try the Stainless Steel mod for METW2 (you need the expansion for it though)

Goodtank
12-08-2008, 14:44
Ughh I keep trying to like Warhammer and get so bored/sick of bullshit before I ever even get to level 20 on any class.

I think the server crashes at 90%+ Fortress Raids (An essential part to getting to city sieges) are one of the big things that ruined it for me, knowing that even if I got to endgame, it is unplayable.

I wouldn't waste your time or money on that game, was a major dissapointment for me and my friends.

chewbaccasdad
12-08-2008, 14:50
Yep, it's just a laggy, unstable bowl of Age of Rangedattacking.

Goodtank
12-08-2008, 14:58
Yep, it's just a laggy, unstable bowl of Age of Rangedattacking.

So true. 1v1 is completely favored by melee. Scenarios are hit or miss. And then Orvr battles are completely favored by range. Its so dumb lol.

Glad I have other, more fun games to tide me over until Darkfall. I highly recommend any of the following games if you are bored and sick of Warhammer while you wait:

Fallout 3 (Don't read any strategy guides, don't try to powergame it, just play it the way it is and the character you would want, and it is a blast)

The Orange Box (Five Games, and all 5 of them were rated 8/10 or better by basically all major review companies)

^--Team Fortress 2 is included, and is one of the most fun, interested, and long lasting pvp games I have ever played, and still enjoy playing a year later.

Dead Space (Only about 12 hours long from start to finish, but a very well made, and scary as hell, game.)

Spore (Simple but endless I would say. If you enjoy creating things and appreciate the finer details and freedom to make any alien race/buildings/vehicles you want, you will love this game. If that is not your thing you won't really get your money out of this game.)

Badem
12-08-2008, 15:03
I bought this for 20 on saturday.
In my starter area (T1) I have seen a grand total of 3 people in two days.......

No fucking population as everyone is in T4 playing around,

wish I had used 20 to wipe my arse, mighta got more satisfaction

Goodtank
12-08-2008, 15:08
I bought this for 20 on saturday.
In my starter area (T1) I have seen a grand total of 3 people in two days.......

No fucking population as everyone is in T4 playing around,

wish I had used 20 to wipe my arse, mighta got more satisfaction

Its not even everyone being in T4. On (and I am not exaggerating) 80%+ of the servers, they are unplayable.

Mythic is refusing to merge servers, because in an early post they said "MMO companies that merge servers are bound to fail".

They have the option to merge the extra 25 or so servers that no one plays on, and make there game have a good solid 100-200k playerbase. Or, they can continue doing what they are doing, I.E. releasing "new" classes that they didn't finish in time for release, and let the population continue to decline as most servers can't even manage 12 people on each side in the same bracket to do a friggin scenario at this point.

NapalmEnema
12-08-2008, 15:10
Its not even everyone being in T4. On (and I am not exaggerating) 80%+ of the servers, they are unplayable.

Mythic is refusing to merge servers, because in an early post they said "MMO companies that merge servers are bound to fail".

They have the option to merge the extra 25 or so servers that no one plays on, and make there game have a good solid 100-200k playerbase. Or, they can continue doing what they are doing, I.E. releasing "new" classes that they didn't finish in time for release, and let the population continue to decline as most servers can't even manage 12 people on each side in the same bracket to do a friggin scenario at this point.

So basically, they are failing harder than AOC?

LOL Well done Mythic, way to raise the bar!!

slugy
12-08-2008, 15:13
i played it for 3 hours and laughed at how much it was like wow, only slower.

its pure fucking vomit

Darkmatter
12-08-2008, 15:13
I think they had a decent number of players starting out; then the WoW expansion came out.

Goodtank
12-08-2008, 15:14
Here is one of the quotes:

Ten Ton Hammer: So no server mergers in the near future?

Mark: Oh god no! The funniest bit was that when this stuff first started, people told us that we needed to merge servers. It was Friday. And so I'm keeping track of how many servers are mid to high population levels. I even told people on the Vault about it.

The next day, four more servers had moved from low pop to mid pop. I just want to tell people that this will keep happening and to just be patient. We opened extra servers than we would normally, because we wanted people to have those option. We listened to our community.

When we did our first launch with the CE and the SE, people were asking us to open a few extra servers because of large guilds or alliances. So we did. And of course people started complaining.

But it really doesn't matter. We opened with far fewer servers than what we will need to contain all the sales that we're going to get over the next month. We know - or at least we hope - what our numbers will be, and since we have plenty of servers to handle that, I'll think we'll be just fine.


Basically, they predicted a lot more people continuing to play. After the first few weeks they actually sold 800,000 copies of the game. Massive bugs, CTD's, unfinished game ect. ect. reduced the subscriber base to I think around 400,000 that month, and now it is under 200,000 iirc.

They are still holding on to there previous ideas however, and refusing to merge servers. Until they do I don't see any reason why they won't continue to have a decline of players. The people playing on the "dead" servers will probably just stop playing all together, and new players who pick a "dead" server, will just get frustrated and have a bad first impression.

slugy
12-08-2008, 15:19
Here is one of the quotes:

Ten Ton Hammer: So no server mergers in the near future?

Mark: Oh god no! The funniest bit was that when this stuff first started, people told us that we needed to merge servers. It was Friday. And so I'm keeping track of how many servers are mid to high population levels. I even told people on the Vault about it.

The next day, four more servers had moved from low pop to mid pop. I just want to tell people that this will keep happening and to just be patient. We opened extra servers than we would normally, because we wanted people to have those option. We listened to our community.

When we did our first launch with the CE and the SE, people were asking us to open a few extra servers because of large guilds or alliances. So we did. And of course people started complaining.

But it really doesn't matter. We opened with far fewer servers than what we will need to contain all the sales that we're going to get over the next month. We know - or at least we hope - what our numbers will be, and since we have plenty of servers to handle that, I'll think we'll be just fine.


Basically, they predicted a lot more people continuing to play. After the first few weeks they actually sold 800,000 copies of the game. Massive bugs, CTD's, unfinished game ect. ect. reduced the subscriber base to I think around 400,000 that month, and now it is under 200,000 iirc.

They are still holding on to there previous ideas however, and refusing to merge servers. Until they do I don't see any reason why they won't continue to have a decline of players. The people playing on the "dead" servers will probably just stop playing all together, and new players who pick a "dead" server, will just get frustrated and have a bad first impression.

good, its a shit game *looks for vid of WH dev saying its 70% wow 30% new*

holychicken
12-08-2008, 15:34
Ughh I keep trying to like Warhammer and get so bored/sick of bullshit before I ever even get to level 20 on any class.
This.

I had fun on each of my characters until about lvl 16 or so. And then it just turned into a boring grind-fest.

That being said, I like getting together with a group of people and owning just because you are smart enough to play together as a tightly run group.

Goodtank
12-08-2008, 15:44
I bought this for 20 on saturday.
In my starter area (T1) I have seen a grand total of 3 people in two days.......

No fucking population as everyone is in T4 playing around,

wish I had used 20 to wipe my arse, mighta got more satisfaction

Also, where did you get it for 20 bucks?Thats pretty amazing. Though I agree, it is not even worth 20 bucks lol

melipone
12-08-2008, 16:03
PVP is shallow/boring
PVE felt like a single player game most of the time as even when the servers were full, there just wasn't enough players around per tier.
They were the biggest problems for me and fundamental things that they just won't ever fix imo.

Connecticaine
12-08-2008, 16:05
i played open beta/release for a few months. got a warrior priest to 40 and a White lion to 32.

the white lion was one of the best classes i've ever seen in a game, it was so fun to play both pve and pvp. But they refused to fix pounce, so i refused to play.

there is no grind in that game, if that is a grind to you, i'd hate to see you level up skills in darkfall. took me two weeks to get to 40, of course i grinded the shit out of that game,but still u could get max lvl in less than a month of casual playing.

The pvp was a joke, simply because they put in scenarios, this was/is the biggest flaw of the game and if they continue with them the game will just go downhill.

as far as server crashes, the first two weeks was bad but after that we never had a server crash. i dunno where u played but it wasnt that unstable after the first few patches.

It was hard at first, because all the players went destructo, so it seemed every server was outnumbered, especially ours which was 3:1 for a while. but that was cool, i mean we always had a keep to raid or BO to get.

in the end the game fails because of scenarios. take those out and you have a decent game.

as far as server population? only retards complain bout that, like its so fuckin hard to check who has a decent server population and join that either thru forums or statistics. i know devs play phenix throne, so you pick your server using smarts not fuckin random names. noobs.

Badem
12-08-2008, 16:11
Also, where did you get it for 20 bucks?Thats pretty amazing. Though I agree, it is not even worth 20 bucks lol

GameStation (http://www.gamestation.co.uk/search.aspx?s=Warhammer+online&ctl00%24SearchGo.x=20&ctl00%24SearchGo.y=14) (cheaper instore)

Play.com (http://www.play.com/Games/PC/4-/3473724/Warhammer-Online-Age-Of-Reckoning/Product.html)(fuck wish i got mine form here change of a 10 :bang:)

Mo0rbid
12-08-2008, 16:13
I played the closed beta for several months and it is a very shallow game which fills you with dissapointment

chewbaccasdad
12-08-2008, 16:13
Well, tying in PVP control of a zone with PVE progression was all sorts of fail as well.

And server population is a problem, because Mythic were farting about alot with server caps, meaning that someone who joined a medium/medium server was actually joining a low/low.

And it depends on your definition of grind. For me, Tier 4 was a horrible grind because level progression slowed down so considerably, it took me ages to get a level and it just seemed to lose it's momentum to the point where I couldn't be bothered to log in.

Sabbathius
12-08-2008, 16:28
I tried it for a month. It is, without a doubt, a most finished, functional MMO at release I've seen in the last 5 years. But that's where the good stuff ends. I played for a month, collision detection was VERY badly done, classes were VERY badly unbalanced, I don't know what Mythic was thinking, Squig Herders and Magus were a massive joke. The world was pretty tiny, and pretty uninspired. I never stopped and said "Woooow, look at that!" like I did in WoW and AoC. AoC sucked worse, but if you went to the White Sands Isle and looked from the top of the ruins into the bay with video quality set to maximum, it took the pants off Crysis and spanked its ass raw in the visuals department, but none of that happened to me in WAR, not once, the world just wasn't stunning. I went to Chaos capital, and I was like "Huh? Who gives a shit?" Lacked in personality big time.

If you can look past the graphics, the gameplay is pretty vanilla. Pop abilities, that's all.

The features like open world PvP and sieges are nice and all, but there was no point in defending them, so nobody bothered. There were some good battles, but mostly it's "stand behind elite NPCs and make faces at the enemy" gameplay so dear to the WoW players.

So I quit it in a month. Less, actually. Just didn't feel like playing, didn't even notice when my time run out. Nobody I know actually got into WAR. Don't know what it is about that game, but nobody I know liked it.

Jathen
12-08-2008, 16:45
Hello. I was just wondering how many people play WH online out there?

I know its not anywhere near as good as Darkfall sounds, but it has a few factors that make it better than WoW, for example keep raids and open PVP. Anyway would just like to see who plays it out there.

No, WAR is way worse than WoW. Atleast WoW has stuff to do......

Niles
12-08-2008, 16:50
Sorry, ForumFall don't play shit.

Groone
12-08-2008, 17:06
Warhammer is structured very nicely with order and Destruction basically having their own zones to only merge in a central area. For a game terrain design, I have seen none better.

The pvp engine is pretty good, except there is no incentive to dying or winning. There is no cost for death so what you get is one big zerg that eventually starts a ping pong effect. Destruction will win for a time and then order will win for a time and it will go back and forth like that until people are tired of playing.

Crafting sucks because there is no depth to it.

Leveling is a breeze

The quest engine is probably the best I have seen in a game and tome unlocks are very cool. The game quest content is very entertaining and enough to keep a person interested.

The population queue when entering the game is horrid.

At level 40 there really isn't much to do. I don't feel like questing because I dont need xp, and I'm pretty satisfied with my gear. I'm a squig herder, so can't pvp solo.

All in all the game is okay, but unfortunately not exactly what I wanted or expected but I will continue to play it until Darkfall opens. Been waiting on DF for a long time so it better be worth a shat.

HCDeath
12-08-2008, 17:13
i think im in the same boat as many other people, i WANT to like this game, but i just cant.

Hit level 20 with my Witch Elf, and now i just have no urge to play it as much as i would like to log on and go PvP, but it just doesnt happen on EU servers (no, it doenst, stop lying!!) unless im in a scnerio.

everything about the game sounds and looks so cool for the first 10 levels then i just get so fed up with the repetiveness of the game.

Just my two cents.

Aragoni
12-08-2008, 17:35
The scenarios ruined the game for me. If they released a scenario-free server then I'd be back within a minute.
I must also say that I expected more DAoC then WoW but oh well... :(

Milo Hobgoblin
12-08-2008, 17:36
Hello. I was just wondering how many people play WH online out there?

I know its not anywhere near as good as Darkfall sounds, but it has a few factors that make it better than WoW, for example keep raids and open PVP. Anyway would just like to see who plays it out there.

I'll take "sucks" for a thousand Bob.

Erroneous
12-08-2008, 17:49
I played it, I think they have done some things right, but overall the implementation could be better. They are working on it, and I still think it could be decent, but by that time Darkfall will be out.

You need to play on a populated server.

Atnas
12-08-2008, 17:52
I played it, but the gameplay is very... simple. I really like that you can level completely from PVP and most of the classes has an interesting mechanic attached to them, but in the end the world feels like an instance, gameplay is dumbed down (no mindgames, no "response" or way to trick people) so it's a very basic rock/paper/scissor. The endgame is almost non-existant and when I stopped about a month ago it still had problems with crashes, bugs and skills not working properly.

Edit: I played on an open-rvr server but you know what? The instant scenario/battleground thing they got keeps people away from doing world pvp so it kind of shoots itself in the foot, not to mention the dumbass players the game consists of. I swear that people always, ALWAYS go for the biggest target they can see with the heaviest armor just because it happens to be closest.

Dhig
12-08-2008, 17:53
I played it, but the gameplay is very... simple. I really like that you can level completely from PVP and most of the classes has an interesting mechanic attached to them, but in the end the world feels like an instance, gameplay is dumbed down (no mindgames, no "response" or way to trick people) so it's a very basic rock/paper/scissor. The endgame is almost non-existant and when I stopped about a month ago it still had problems with crashes, bugs and skills not working properly.

I agree.
I played it for 3 weeks.
I hated it.

bloodfletcher2
12-08-2008, 17:53
I tried to play it, but it's vertually WoW with worse gameplay.

Yari
12-08-2008, 17:57
I liked the fact that one could level from only RvR scenarios so thats pretty much all I did in the game, but as leveling got slower I started losing interest because nothing really changed.

It was fun while it lasted, probably wont go back though :cool:

Broockle
12-08-2008, 18:07
i tried it but i got so bored at lvl 14, the PvP instances r pretty decent and u can level quite well from killing players, but the servers were so thinly populated that one of those instances occured everyhour. Until then u had to deal with the xtremely lame PvE the game provides, i hated the q's and the level design. Nothing new done everything a million times already. All the character skills were quite fun to use in PvP though. Also due to the thin population u never had random encounters.
It sux don't get it.

Loadafreak
12-08-2008, 18:20
So basically, they are failing harder than AOC?

I don't think that that is possible. :D


WAR feels like a giant Alterac Vally in WoW (when wow first came out, not nerfed AV). You fight the enemy taking over spots on the map, eventually hoping to take over their main city, then you do it, say yay, and get ready to do it all over again.

The game isn't immersive at all for me. When they say 'War is everywhere!' they mean it. Every place you go is a battlefield, there is no break or change of pace. There are no cities, just a bunch of warcamps and fortresses you move between. I understand how some people would like the constant feeling of war, but it doesn't do much for a 'world' feeling. But I guess that's what they were aiming for.

It's an ok game for people that like doing minigames and repetitive shit without a death penalty. But overall it's Wow - immersion + slightly better pvp (the mechanics, not balance wise yet).

sm007h
12-10-2008, 00:45
hmm, how many of you are actually Warhammer players?
it seems like nearly all of the complaints are things that Warhammer players either would enjoy or would expect the game to be.

it is simple, it is rock/paper/scissors, it is "virtually" WoW (well, technically, the other way around if you guys are interested in the history of how that came to be), it is repetitious warring and that is all it aims to be and will ever be.

the real concern I have is how you think that Darkfall will be much different from the gameplay aspect.

I mean, some of you said that you thought it was cool to be able to level off PvP, but that the fun of killing each other over and over and over again wore off...and that's the central plan of action for many or most of the members on this board. Why were you even trying to grind to an end rather than just PvP'ing and XP'ing as it came?

So what do you see as different about Darkfall from WAR that will keep you occupied when you are weary from PvP ebbs and flows?

Will it be the PvE?
Or do you expect PvP to not become redundant due to player looting and FPS style?

Anyway, the instances I agree should have never been implemented.
I'm curious what the design choice is behind that.
But the server pops should have been researched beforehand and Mythic is offering player transfers so I can't see beefing the game over that.
It's certainly a lot better than what I read about WoW for every one of it's launches with either crashing servers or hour long queues.

But I'm mainly curious how many of you came from Warhammer to WAR and it failed to meet your expectations?

Suitepee
12-10-2008, 00:46
EA. EA. EA. Stay away. Stay away. Stay away.

Nuff said.

Dazarthas
12-10-2008, 00:48
I played it for a month or so. It's one of those games that makes you contemplate suicide.

I unsubscribed instead, though.

techninex
12-10-2008, 01:29
Or do you expect PvP to not become redundant due to player looting and FPS style?


This. And the fact that I can login and basically be at the endgame, and start PVPing and actually compete against people who play more than me. AND the skill system. No rerolling, just use new skills.



(and no levels)

omnigol
12-10-2008, 01:35
Deadspace gets my vote. Wonderfully made game. No crashes beautiful graphics no lag (cyrsis was shit). Resident evil spinoff with playable combat.

I haven't played warhammer. The combat is suspect (always is unless I've had at it) but darkfall will be out before I'll be able to level, and test multiple classes, which there is no way in hell I'd even attempt to do in the first place. Thus I give up on class/level games due to shitty combat without testing the combat.

Malakili
12-10-2008, 01:38
hmm, how many of you are actually Warhammer players?
it seems like nearly all of the complaints are things that Warhammer players either would enjoy or would expect the game to be.

the real concern I have is how you think that Darkfall will be much different from the gameplay aspect.



I think the biggest problem the "hardcore" pvp crowd had with Warhammer is that in the end, it was actually all just a ruse to cover up the same old loot grind that you see in most MMOs these days. Nothing truly mattered that you did in the world. You could take over a keep in a matter of minutes, and you got excellent loot from it, and instead of actual PvP, people would let the other realm take their keeps, so they could take them back, this way, both sides got loot.

Dying just meant that you were out of combat for a couple minutes while you rode back, or walked back. There was no real penalty to dying, you max hit points went down for a few minutes, but you could easily get this healed for a negligible price from NPC healers in town.

Even the vaunted city sieges which drew so many of us to the game in the first place ended up being 40 v. 40 instances rather than being a real attack on a city.

It was all so convoluted and meaningless. Sure, I found the gameplay fun for a little while, but in the end there was no reason to keep playing, because nothing I did actually mattered.

Sin
12-10-2008, 02:58
The only reason I haven't gone back to this game, is because I'm tired of my 40 nerfed-into-the-ground Archmage (I'm only a instant-rez bot now), and the lowbie area's are desolated and barren so bad. I refuse to solo PvE in that game, because I picked it up for the PvP.

AmonDominus
12-10-2008, 02:59
LOLhammer more like it amiright?
Where did this drastic change come from? 2nd thing I can agree with ! Ahaha.
FailHammer more like :P

Corwen
12-10-2008, 03:03
I can't stand that game.

Even thinking about it just makes me sick.

Especially with the epic fuck up Age of Conan having come out within such close proximity that I bought them both.

GODFU&()CLKJ_(&U@Y...

Yep...

UrienRakarth
12-10-2008, 03:10
hmm, how many of you are actually Warhammer players?
it seems like nearly all of the complaints are things that Warhammer players either would enjoy or would expect the game to be.

it is simple, it is rock/paper/scissors, it is "virtually" WoW (well, technically, the other way around if you guys are interested in the history of how that came to be), it is repetitious warring and that is all it aims to be and will ever be.

the real concern I have is how you think that Darkfall will be much different from the gameplay aspect.

I mean, some of you said that you thought it was cool to be able to level off PvP, but that the fun of killing each other over and over and over again wore off...and that's the central plan of action for many or most of the members on this board. Why were you even trying to grind to an end rather than just PvP'ing and XP'ing as it came?

So what do you see as different about Darkfall from WAR that will keep you occupied when you are weary from PvP ebbs and flows?

Will it be the PvE?
Or do you expect PvP to not become redundant due to player looting and FPS style?

Anyway, the instances I agree should have never been implemented.
I'm curious what the design choice is behind that.
But the server pops should have been researched beforehand and Mythic is offering player transfers so I can't see beefing the game over that.
It's certainly a lot better than what I read about WoW for every one of it's launches with either crashing servers or hour long queues.

But I'm mainly curious how many of you came from Warhammer to WAR and it failed to meet your expectations?

I'm sure a lot of people in this board will be disappointed in darkfall too. Time will tell.

Jiggle
12-10-2008, 03:18
Keep sieges are kinda fun, and the no penalty for dieing ensures the battles last long.

But definitely not a game I could really get into.

Jiggle
12-10-2008, 03:25
I'm sure a lot of people in this board will be disappointed in darkfall too. Time will tell.

I think the game will be fine, I think people will be more disappointed in the community and how they handle certain situations.

They will then blame those problems on the game and the devs.

Viare
12-10-2008, 03:26
I played WAR up to lvl 15... wasnt a bad game at all. Just seemed very linear and i didnt really like it

Currently just got AoC yesterday and i can say even though im only lvl 6.. Forget you Haters ALREADY AoC seems much more revolutionary. You just need a rig that can run it on max graphics to appreciate it. Its badass so far though.

Jiggle
12-10-2008, 03:40
I played WAR up to lvl 15... wasnt a bad game at all. Just seemed very linear and i didnt really like it

Currently just got AoC yesterday and i can say even though im only lvl 6.. Forget you Haters ALREADY AoC seems much more revolutionary. You just need a rig that can run it on max graphics to appreciate it. Its badass so far though.

I got my char in AoC to lvl 62, it turned into a grindfest before that. PvP was useless when I played...I mean that literally, you gained absolutely nothing from PvP, no thrill cause there was NO risk. They had a pvp system and xp setup, just not activated, not sure if that has changed yet or not.

If you enjoy it then play to your hearts content, but personally it got old before the first month was up.

Ftang
12-10-2008, 03:47
one of my homeboys who is actually good at pvp, unlike the masses, plays warhammer religiously with his guild. he just got me to watch their oh so awesome pvp movie. its just WoW world pvp with slightly different textures.

i dont know exactly what the consequences are for one side who lose all their battles, but i do know its not near enough to make killing warhammer newbs worthwhile.

sm007h
12-10-2008, 12:41
Ftang, the reason I brought up some of my points is because the criticism that it's "WoW" in any way isn't really a criticism at all because that's pretty much what it was supposed to be. Well, the thing is that Warcraft is inspired by Games Workshop's IP in a similar way that Bill Gates was "inspired" to make Windows.

Warhammer fans have been playing for over 20 years. It was always understood that no matter what, at least the fans would get what they wanted to play. On top of that, everyone figured that if you take the PvP add-ons to WoW and make them central to WAR, then you might even pick up a chunk of WoW-PvP'ers. But I doubt anyone really thought they'd get the UO-PvP'ers, which is why I'm wondering if you guys are Warhammer players who feel that you were let down by Mythic of if you're PvP'ers who feel that it's not got what you want. Cuz if it's the latter, then it didn't fail it just failed to meet your expectations/desires of what you want PvP to be in an MMO.


The whole back and forth so everyone can score loot sounds like ass, though. And I had hopes for the world to be more player-controllable. Those two things blow, but perhaps DFO can bring to light some great game dynamics that Mythic sees as successful and the fans demand so it's gets patched in over time. It's not EA, that reason to avoid WAR is as silly as avoiding L4D because of EA. Might as well not drink Coke, since EA almost certainly has ownership in that company somewhere down the pipe. Such is the consequence of globalization. Mythic, however, sounds like it's listening to the player base and they've not been fuckups in the past. Anyway, just rambling...