Guns on prescription for the elderly (yes america again)

[PKSinister]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081205/twl-guns-on-prescription-for-elderly-3fd0ae9.html

I wonder how many accidental deaths this will cause, many of them self inflicted.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Good thing I think as long as it can have a safety and ofcourse one has to pass tests to get it.

[bloodfletcher2]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

[Arkh]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081205/twl-guns-on-prescription-for-elderly-3fd0ae9.html

I wonder how many accidental deaths this will cause, many of them self inflicted.
Less than cars, policemen, knives, buckets of water and the list goes on.

[palo god]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

Because we aren’t afraid to defend ourselves no matter how old we are.

[Arkh]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?
To not be victims.
If you're a criminal, who are you gonna attack ? The 2m, 120kg of muscle guy or the person in a weelchair ?

[bloodfletcher2]

Because we aren’t afraid to defend ourselves no matter how old we are.

In my country people don't feel threatened enough, it's not a matter of afraid to defend yourself, it's a matter of how sad is it old and disabled people need guns to defend themselves. If people carry guns to defend themselves then attackers will feel the need to use guns, ending in more death and violent crimes.

[Tharkon Fargor]

To not be victims.
If you're a criminal, who are you gonna attack ? The 2m, 120kg of muscle guy or the person in a weelchair ?

If I was I'd attack the 2m 120 kg muscle guy with a gun.
I'd think it dishonorable to attack the person in a weelchair even as a criminal.

What happened to all honest crooks? :(

[palo god]

In my country people don't feel threatened enough, it's not a matter of afraid to defend yourself, it's a matter of how sad is it old and disabled people need guns to defend themselves. If people carry guns to defend themselves then attackers will feel the need to use guns, ending in more death and violent crimes.

It doesn't matter if you have a gun or not the criminals will still use them, I would rather defend myself with a gun against a criminal with a gun then defend myself with a knife or just give him my money and hope he doesn't kill me.

[Arkh]

defend myself with a knife
In soviet France, if you defend yourself with a knife and the guys attacking you aren't armed, they can press charge against you. And win.
If it's the same thing in other socialist countries, you can understand why a lot of people fear guns.

[Spinewire]

Hmmmm button on the top does not sound like it would travel well.

[Fro]

Its the fact that you feel threatened enough in what is a relatively safe country to constantly arm yourself which worries me.

[bloodfletcher2]

It doesn't matter if you have a gun or not the criminals will still use them, I would rather defend myself with a gun against a criminal with a gun then defend myself with a knife or just give him my money and hope he doesn't kill me.

Maybe in your country they would use guns, but luckily this is a problem with your country and not the rest of the western world. The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to carry guns with them out of fear.

[palo god]

Maybe in your country they would use guns, but luckily this is a problem with your country and not the rest of the western world. The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to carry guns with them out of fear.

Its better to be safe then sorry, its not like your country doesn't have crime.

[Arkh]

The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to have fire extinguisher in their house out of fear.
The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to have airbag in their car out of fear.
The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to have locks on their doors out of fear.
Fixt.

[bloodfletcher2]

Its better to be safe then sorry, its not like your country doesn't have crime.

It doesn't have crime on any level similiar to yours, particulary violent crime, why do you think your prison and crime rates are so high? If everyone has that attitude it obviously encourages a mass use of guns and theifs will ofcourse feel the need to use guns.

First shooting in my City ever last month, knifings and shootings which are very rare make national news in my country.

[Niles]

It doesn't have crime on any level similiar to yours, particulary violent crime, why do you think your prison and crime rates are so high? If everyone has that attitude it obviously encourages a mass use of guns and theifs will ofcourse feel the need to use guns.

First shooting in my City ever last month, knifings and shootings which are very rare make national news in my country.

Same here.

[bloodfletcher2]

Fixt.

Yes thats exactly the same ofcourse, we feel the need to open our eyes too when crossing the road out of fear of getting ran over. Stop making stupid comparisons.

[palo god]

It doesn't have crime on any level similiar to yours, particulary violent crime, why do you think your prison and crime rates are so high? If everyone has that attitude it obviously encourages a mass use of guns and theifs will ofcourse feel the need to use guns.

First shooting in my City ever last month, knifings and shootings which are very rare make national news in my country.

Law abiding citizens having guns doesn't encourage crime it discourages it.

Read this. (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=275&issue=015)

[Fro]

Fixt.

Theres a huge difference between fear of a fire and fear of other people.

Law abiding citizens having guns doesn't encourage crime it discourages it.

Read this. (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=275&issue=015)

The massive fear for other people does encourage crime though. Why does your country have such a higher homicide rate than other western countries?

[Nevron]

The massive fear for other people does encourage crime though. Why does your country have such a higher homicide rate than other western countries?

Because you gave us your tired, your hungry, and your poor.

[bloodfletcher2]

Law abiding citizens having guns doesn't encourage crime it discourages it.

Read this. (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=275&issue=015)

Why do you find it so hard to admit your country has a problem with crime, which guns are a massive part of? If your a crook and your going to mug someone, are you going to attack them a with stick if they have a gun? No you will use a gun which will quite likely end in someone dieing if either of them decide to use their guns.

Your gun culture quite obviously enduces the horrendous homicide and crime rates in your country.

[bloodfletcher2]

Because you gave us your tired, your hungry, and your poor.

So what, we gave our criminals to Australia, you don't see them walking round with guns and poor crime rates.

[Fro]

Because you gave us your tired, your hungry, and your poor.

We gave everyone our tired, hungry and poor. Yet you're the ones with the worst homicide rate and firearm related crime rates. The fact that you have so many guns must be a factor.

I understand Americas stance on individual rights but prevention is always better than the cure.

[palo god]

Why do you find it so hard to admit your country has a problem with crime, which guns are a massive part of? If your a crook and your going to mug someone, are you going to attack them a with stick if they have a gun? No you will use a gun which will quite likely end in someone dieing if either of them decide to use their guns.

Your gun culture quite obviously enduces the horrendous homicide and crime rates in your country.

Your logic is flawed, why do you find it so hard to admit that your strict gun laws have made your crime rates rise?

If a criminal knows that someone has a gun to protect themselves they will think twice before doing something.

[Nevron]

So what, we gave our criminals to Australia, you don't see them walking round with guns and poor crime rates.

Criminals from one origin get along better than criminals from many.

[Fro]

Your logic is flawed, why do you find it so hard to admit that your strict gun laws have made your crime rates rise?

If a criminal knows that someone has a gun to protect themselves they will think twice before doing something.

Because they haven't, cultural problems have.

[antihero-zero]

Seems like a very reasonable and good idea. This thing probably has an external safety. Hell, I've carried my firearm for years without a safety. Double-action pistols don't have external safeties.

[palo god]

The massive fear for other people does encourage crime though. Why does your country have such a higher homicide rate than other western countries?

The number of Violent crimes in the UK is much higher then the US.

[palo god]

Because they haven't, cultural problems have.

That's why before the ban crime rates were much lower?

[Fro]

The number of Violent crimes in the UK is much higher then the US.

Firstly we classify violent crime differently. Uk classifies any violent act against the person as violent crime but the U.S excludes some.

Secondly can i see your source?

[Ghostpaw]

It doesn't have crime on any level similiar to yours, particulary violent crime, why do you think your prison and crime rates are so high? If everyone has that attitude it obviously encourages a mass use of guns and theifs will ofcourse feel the need to use guns.

First shooting in my City ever last month, knifings and shootings which are very rare make national news in my country.

The United States crime rate is at the level and, in many cases, lower than that of established countries. Most of our "crime" comes from victimless drug use. Saying that the United States is a dangerous place to live because of the acceptance of guns in life is not supported in reality.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_fir_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
As seen here, the gun violence is rather negligible and a lot of it is from criminals using them against other criminals.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

[bloodfletcher2]

Criminals from one origin get along better than criminals from many.

Hmm yes because Chartist leaders and Serial killers have oh so much in common, no your country can't seem to understand gun culture will obviousy end in more violent crimes and death. If you didn't have guns you wouldn't be giving criminals a valuable tool. You don't have your high crime, homicide and prison rates for being obese, it's your gun culture.

How the fuck do strict gun laws make crime rise? I'm sorry but thats stupid, considering the immense amount of crime in your country compared to other western countrys which have strict gun laws.. the truth is obvious and if you can't take it at face value and get over the fact your country has a problem then don't bother discussing a subject your country is yet again so ignorant about. I mean don't get me started about capital punishment in a supposed civilised culture.

[Bodu]

A gun so easy even a child can use it!

[The Cougar]

Why do you find it so hard to admit your country has a problem with crime, which guns are a massive part of? If your a crook and your going to mug someone, are you going to attack them a with stick if they have a gun? No you will use a gun which will quite likely end in someone dieing if either of them decide to use their guns.

Your gun culture quite obviously enduces the horrendous homicide and crime rates in your country.
Do you realize how big America is? States with lenient gun control actually have less gun crimes than states with strict gun control, meaning that the statistic for America is very misleading when places like New York is what brings up the crime rates.

If everyone I was going to mug had a gun I would stop mugging people, obviously. It's funny how you practically endorse attackers with sticks because you're afraid of people having guns though. You'd rather have people get violently beat up and robbed than being allowed a fighting chance.

[palo god]

Firstly we classify violent crime differently. Uk classifies any violent act against the person as violent crime but the U.S excludes some.

Secondly can i see your source?

http://thewoman.blogspot.com/2005/07/us-violent-crime-rates-much-lower-than.html

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.canada/2005-09/msg00251.html

http://friedbrains.com/?p=2700

[The Cougar]

Hmm yes because Chartist leaders and Serial killers have oh so much in common, no your country can't seem to understand gun culture will obviousy end in more violent crimes and death. If you didn't have guns you wouldn't be giving criminals a valuable tool. You don't have your high crime, homicide and prison rates for being obese, it's your gun culture.

How the fuck do strict gun laws make crime rise? I'm sorry but thats stupid, considering the immense amount of crime in your country compared to other western countrys which have strict gun laws.. the truth is obvious and if you can't take it at face value and get over the fact your country has a problem then don't bother discussing a subject your country is yet again so ignorant about. I mean don't get me started about capital punishment in a supposed civilised culture.
The problem with your argument is that America is already overflowing with illegal guns, and that they have had a gun culture since day one. This already means it's incomparable with western countries, so thinking that the strict gun laws are what makes western countries safe and lenient gun laws what makes America unsafe is fallacious.

If this doesn't convince you, imagine someone selling millions of illegal guns on the street of whatever country you are born in. Then try to blame lenient gun control when crime rates goes up. I'm sure you'll cry for guns as well.

So basically, the solution you are proposing to the problem of illegal guns and gun culture is to ban all legal guns, disarming the victims. Any sentient being would find this illogical.

[Fro]

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.canada/2005-09/msg00251.html

http://friedbrains.com/?p=2700

Fair enough but i'd much rather be burgled or have my car stolen than be murdered or shot.

[bloodfletcher2]

Only prison rates i could find, old but still relevant.

http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf

Average prison population per 100,000

USA - 689
EU average - 87

Crimes recorded of homicide in Capital cities - homicide per 100,000

Washington D.C - 42.87
EU capital city average - 2.28

Yes and obviously i understand this is concentrated in some areas more so than others as shown by Washington.

[palo god]

Fair enough but i'd much rather be burgled or have my car stolen than be murdered or shot.

Plus you guys have a higher rate of assault.

[The Cougar]

Fair enough but i'd much rather be burgled or have my car stolen than be murdered or shot.
Then don't defend yourself? Just don't force me not to as well.

[Fro]

Plus you guys have a higher rate of assault.

Yeh but you've completely ignored my point about your higher homicide and firearms crime rates. Nice strawman.

Then don't defend yourself? Just don't force me not to as well.

Since when do you need a gun to defend yourself?

[bloodfletcher2]

"But the Home Office has hit back at the CBS statistics, claiming that the
average American is seven times more likely to be murdered than their
British counterpart and 60 times more likely to be shot.

Home Office figures showed the murder rate in the US in 1998 was 6.3 per
100,000 people compared with 1.4 per 100,000 in England and Wales.

The murder rate in London is 2.9 per 100,000 compared with 8.6 per 100,000
in New York and 49.15 per 100,000 in Washington DC. It shows the murder rate was 5.7 times higher in the US than England and Wales and the rape rate was about three times higher.

The report also showed firearms were used in 68% of murders in the US
compared with 7% in England and Wales, and in 41% of robberies in America
against 5% in England and Wales. But the rates for assault, burglary and
motor vehicle theft were all lower in America than in England and Wales."

Prefer to have no car than to be dead.

[The Cougar]

Only prison rates i could find, old but still relevant.

http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf

Average prison population per 100,000

USA - 689
EU average - 87

Crimes recorded of homicide in Capital cities - homicide per 100,000

Washington D.C - 42.87
EU capital city average - 2.28

Yes and obviously i understand this is concentrated in some areas more so than others as shown by Washington.
I don't know how reliable prison populations are though, as factors like average time of punishment for crimes, amount and strictness of the laws, efficiency of police etc. all play in.

Washington tried to ban handguns once (1976-1991), homicide rates rose by 200% as compared to US' 12%.

[The Cougar]

Yeh but you've completely ignored my point about your higher homicide and firearms crime rates. Nice strawman.
Read my previous posts.


Since when do you need a gun to defend yourself?
If a huge fucker or two approached me with a baseball bat, I do need a gun to defend myself.

[palo god]

"But the Home Office has hit back at the CBS statistics, claiming that the
average American is seven times more likely to be murdered than their
British counterpart and 60 times more likely to be shot.

Home Office figures showed the murder rate in the US in 1998 was 6.3 per
100,000 people compared with 1.4 per 100,000 in England and Wales.

The murder rate in London is 2.9 per 100,000 compared with 8.6 per 100,000
in New York and 49.15 per 100,000 in Washington DC. It shows the murder rate was 5.7 times higher in the US than England and Wales and the rape rate was about three times higher.

The report also showed firearms were used in 68% of murders in the US
compared with 7% in England and Wales, and in 41% of robberies in America
against 5% in England and Wales. But the rates for assault, burglary and
motor vehicle theft were all lower in America than in England and Wales."

Prefer to have no car than to be dead.

I'm not just talking about murder rates, I'm talking about violent crime rates in general, and you guys have a much higher violent crime rate and the US has a population of 305 million compared to the UK with a population of only 60 million.

[Fro]

If a huge fucker or two approached me with a baseball bat, I do need a gun to defend myself.

No you wouldn't. There are other alternatives to guns.

Washington tried to ban handguns once (1976-1991), homicide rates rose by 200% as compared to US' 12%.

I'm not suggesting a ban i'm more interested in changing peoples mentalities.

I'm not just talking about murder rates, I'm talking about violent crime rates in general, and you guys have a much higher violent crime rate and the US has a population of 305 million compared to the UK with a population of only 60 million.

What does total population have to do with anything?

[bloodfletcher2]

http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf

England & Wales - 800,000 Violent crimes in 2001
USA - 1.436 Million Violent crimes in 2001

England & Wales Robbery 2000 - 95,000
USA Robbery 2000 - 408,000

Also as Fro said i'm sure we have different classifications of violent crimes.

[The Cougar]

"But the Home Office has hit back at the CBS statistics, claiming that the
average American is seven times more likely to be murdered than their
British counterpart and 60 times more likely to be shot.

Home Office figures showed the murder rate in the US in 1998 was 6.3 per
100,000 people compared with 1.4 per 100,000 in England and Wales.

The murder rate in London is 2.9 per 100,000 compared with 8.6 per 100,000
in New York and 49.15 per 100,000 in Washington DC. It shows the murder rate was 5.7 times higher in the US than England and Wales and the rape rate was about three times higher.

The report also showed firearms were used in 68% of murders in the US
compared with 7% in England and Wales, and in 41% of robberies in America
against 5% in England and Wales. But the rates for assault, burglary and
motor vehicle theft were all lower in America than in England and Wales."

Prefer to have no car than to be dead.
Did you completely disregard my post about gun culture and the amount of illegal weapons in America? We're discussing relative efficiency of the implementation of gun control, not comparing raw numbers between two places with completely different factors playing in on homicide rates and crime rates.

But sure, lets take a look at relevant numbers instead:

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, Florida's homicide rates dropped 36% while USA's homicide rates dropped 0.4%. Firearm homicide rates in Florida dropped 37% while USA's firearm rates rose 15%.

[palo god]

What does total population have to do with anything?

Because you have way more violent crimes then us and there are five times more of us?

[Fro]

http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf

England & Wales - 800,000 Violent crimes in 2001
USA - 1.436 Million Violent crimes in 2001

England & Wales Robbery 2000 - 95,000
USA Robbery 2000 - 408,000

Also as Fro said i'm sure we have different classifications of violent crimes.

We're bound to have less since we have a smaller population but if y ou work that out per 100,000 it comes out US has alot less.


Did you completely disregard my post about gun culture and the amount of illegal weapons in America? We're discussing relative efficiency of the implementation of gun control, not comparing raw numbers between two places with completely different factors playing in on homicide rates and crime rates.

But sure, lets take a look at relevant numbers instead:

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, Florida's homicide rates dropped 36% while USA's homicide rates dropped 0.4%. Firearm homicide rates in Florida dropped 37% while USA's firearm rates rose 15%.

I agree a ban on guns wouldn't work in the U.S.A. Not without huge amounts of rescources that america doesn't have at the moment.

Because you have way more violent crimes then us and there are five times more of us?

Lol no. We have less total violent crimes but more violent crimes per 1000 people. Do you even understand the statistics we're talking about?

[bloodfletcher2]

Did you completely disregard my post about gun culture and the amount of illegal weapons in America? We're discussing relative efficiency of the implementation of gun control, not comparing raw numbers between two places with completely different factors playing in on homicide rates and crime rates.

But sure, lets take a look at relevant numbers instead:

Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, Florida's homicide rates dropped 36% while USA's homicide rates dropped 0.4%. Firearm homicide rates in Florida dropped 37% while USA's firearm rates rose 15%.

So you take it for granted that your country cannot remove it's gun problem? Doesn't change the fact it has a gun problem, and it's the mentality of the USA that i'm getting at, that someone needs a gun to defend themselves.

[The Cougar]

No you wouldn't. There are other alternatives to guns.
Most men aren't easily going to fight off a 100 kg man with a baseball bat by themselves. Women and elderly are even further fucked over.



I'm not suggesting a ban i'm more interested in changing peoples mentalities.
What mentality? That illegal guns and gun crimes are bad? Most people would agree with that.

[bloodfletcher2]

We're bound to have less since we have a smaller population but if y ou work that out per 100,000 it comes out US has alot less.


Yes obviously, but Palo God argued otherwise

"I'm not just talking about murder rates, I'm talking about violent crime rates in general, and you guys have a much higher violent crime rate and the US has a population of 305 million compared to the UK with a population of only 60 million."

I think he was trying to say we have more violent crimes despite a lower population, which i disproved, we have fewer violent crimes but a higher violent crime rate.

[bloodfletcher2]

What mentality? That illegal guns and gun crimes are bad? Most people would agree with that.

That's why most countries make guns illegal?

[The Cougar]

So you take it for granted that your country cannot remove it's gun problem? Doesn't change the fact it has a gun problem, and it's the mentality of the USA that i'm getting at, that someone needs a gun to defend themselves.
First of, I'm Norwegian.

No, I don't take it for granted that America can't remove it's gun problem. All I'm saying is that trying to take them away from law-abiding citizens only furthers the problem, ignoring the fact that crimes are committed with illegal guns rather than legal ones.

There's no problem with a mentality that someone needs a gun to defend themselves with, because it's completely correct in the case of women and elderly. When it's proven that citizen carrying is decreasing crime, who gives a shit if they have them?

[DR.NUMBERS]

In soviet France, if you defend yourself with a knife and the guys attacking you aren't armed, they can press charge against you. And win.
If it's the same thing in other socialist countries, you can understand why a lot of people fear guns.

In soviet Nederland, you aren't allowed to defend yourself at all unless they come within 2m. If you use a weapon (bat, knife) = jail. If you accidently or otherwise kill them = jail.

Seriously, the police advise you to leave the house if possible or sit in a corner/closet.

Fuck That.

[bloodfletcher2]

There's no problem with a mentality that someone needs a gun to defend themselves with, because it's completely correct in the case of women and elderly. When it's proven that citizen carrying is decreasing crime, who gives a shit if they have them?

Proven in the USA alone, due to their mentality. I don't see a problem with pepper spray or tazers, that dog the bounty hunter (i know stupid example) uses pepper spray and chases these criminals?

[palo god]

Lol no. We have less total violent crimes but more violent crimes per 1000 people. Do you even understand the statistics we're talking about?

You misunderstood me and you (http://thewoman.blogspot.com/2005/07/us-violent-crime-rates-much-lower-than.html) guys have more violent crimes per capita.

[The Cougar]

In soviet Norway, if you hurt the other person in self-defence while knowing martial arts, you'll get fined several hundred dollars because you allegedly knew where to hit to hurt him the most and therefore did it on purpose, which means you used unnecessary force to fight him off.

True story.

[Fruitbasket]

..The palm pistol.. Sounds just..ehh! But wait they are going to let people have this (thats a gun) yet nunchaku is still banned in states. God!

[bloodfletcher2]

You misunderstood me and you (http://thewoman.blogspot.com/2005/07/us-violent-crime-rates-much-lower-than.html) guys have more violent crimes per capita.

You didn't say that, you mentioned population, not percentage or per cap.

[palo god]

You didn't say that, you mentioned population, not percentage or per cap.

I used a bad choice of words, sue me.

but it still stands that you guys are more violent then us based on the violent crime rates per capita.

[Arkh]

Why do you find it so hard to admit your country has a problem with crime, which guns are a massive part of? If your a crook and your going to mug someone, are you going to attack them a with stick if they have a gun? No you will use a gun which will quite likely end in someone dieing if either of them decide to use their guns.

Your gun culture quite obviously enduces the horrendous homicide and crime rates in your country.
What is the percentage of crimes commited with registered firearms in the US ?
Why do the US have higher non gun related crimes if guns are the cause ?
Why the majority of crime is caused by young black people ? Yup, gang and drugs.

Stop spitting your bullshit propaganda and start getting some real info and statistics.

[bloodfletcher2]

I used a bad choice of words, sue me.

but it still stands that you guys are more violent then us based on the violent crime rates per capita.

We don't have a sue everything culture either here :rolleyes:

Yes agreed we have more violent crimes, yet i'd prefer to have a better chance of getting my car stolen or being robbed and have seven times less chance of getting murdered.

[The Cougar]

Proven in the USA alone, due to their mentality. I don't see a problem with pepper spray or tazers, that dog the bounty hunter (i know stupid example) uses pepper spray and chases these criminals?
Yes, it's only because of "their mentality".

An elderly with a pepper spray would have to unpurse it and fire hastily it in such a way that she wont get affected herself. A tazer has no extended reach and requires some skill to use, meaning that once an elderly person picks it up she's far from safe from even an unarmed assaulter.

With a gun, she'd blow his balls of while having it hidden inside her purse.

[palo god]

We don't have a sue everything culture either here :rolleyes:

Yes agreed we have more violent crimes, yet i'd prefer to have a better chance of getting my car stolen or being robbed and have seven times less chance of getting murdered.

That's because you're a flaming pussy, and its a figure of speech.

[bloodfletcher2]

What is the percentage of crimes commited with registered firearms in the US ?
Why do the US have higher non gun related crimes if guns are the cause ?
Why the majority of crime is caused by young black people ? Yup, gang and drugs.

Stop spitting your bullshit propaganda and start getting some real info and statistics.

You are 60 times more like to be shot in US than UK, i don't see how the firearm being registered makes a difference, they encourage each other to increase either way. And gang crime is the cause of most murders in the UK also, containing "young black people".

[bloodfletcher2]

That's because you're a flaming pussy, and its a figure of speech.

You think sueing someone for little things isn't being a pussy?

[Arkh]

No you wouldn't. There are other alternatives to guns.
Which are ?

[The Cougar]

We don't have a sue everything culture either here :rolleyes:

Yes agreed we have more violent crimes, yet i'd prefer to have a better chance of getting my car stolen or being robbed and have seven times less chance of getting murdered.
Again using irrelevant statistics. I'd like you to argue the points I make in this (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=2090043#post2090043) post first.

[palo god]

You think sueing someone for little things isn't being a pussy?

I wasn't talking about that.

[Arkh]

You are 60 times more like to be shot in US than UK
Source plz.
i don't see how the firearm being registered makes a difference, they encourage each other to increase either way.
How so ? Care to develop ?
And gang crime is the cause of most murders in the UK also, containing "young black people".
Source plz.

[The Cougar]

You are 60 times more like to be shot in US than UK, i don't see how the firearm being registered makes a difference, they encourage each other to increase either way. And gang crime is the cause of most murders in the UK also, containing "young black people".
Now you're just being stupid. It's not a matter of whether the firearms being registered or unregistered, it's a matter of law-abiding citizens owning registered guns and criminals owning unregistered ones. The amount of murders and crimes being committed by registered guns are close to nil.

Since citizen carrying discourages crime, they don't 'encourage' each other neither.

[bloodfletcher2]

Again using irrelevant statistics. I'd like you to argue the points I make in this (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=2090043#post2090043) post first.

How are they irrelavent in any sense, yes i understand it's extremely difficult to completely remove guns from America, but other countries previous illegelised guns from a legal status, France and other European countries used to have guns legalised.

A clampdown on illegal gun trade perhaps? Just like your harsh laws on drugs.

Where do these illegal guns come from anyway, the same source as legal ones?

[DR.NUMBERS]

What is the percentage of crimes commited with registered firearms in the US ?
Why do the US have higher non gun related crimes if guns are the cause ?
Why the majority of crime is caused by young black people ? Yup, gang and drugs.

Stop spitting your bullshit propaganda and start getting some real info and statistics.

Bravo,

* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)



* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)


*Myth : People don't need guns for self-protection because they can rely on the police. About 83 percent of the population will be victims of violent crime at some point in their lives, and in any given year serious crime touches 25 percent of all households. Considering that, effectively, there is only one police officer on patrol for every 3,300 people, the odds are not likely to improve. And the courts have ruled that government has no duty to protect individual citizens from crime.

* Myth: Guns are of little help in defending against criminals. In fact, guns are a big help. Each year, potential victims kill from 2,000 to 3,000 criminals and wound an additional 9,000 to 17,000. And mishaps are rare. Private citizens mistakenly kill innocent people only 30 times a year, compared with about 330 mistaken killings by police. Criminals succeed in taking a gun away from an armed victim less than 1 percent of the time.

* Myth: Gun controls keep criminals from obtaining guns. In surveys of prisoners, a majority said that prior to imprisonment they had owned a handgun. But fewer than one in six guns had been purchased from a retail dealer. Three-fourths of the felons said they would have no trouble obtaining a gun when they were released, despite legal prohibitions.

*Myth: Guns cause crime. A careful review of 18 academic studies shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. International evidence tells a similar story.

*Myth: The availability of guns contributes to crimes of passion. In about 90 percent of "crime-of-passion" domestic homicides, the police had been called in previously to break up violence. In half the cases, the police had been called in five or more times. There is no evidence that a significant number of homicides occur simply because a lethal weapon is handy.

*Myth: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime. Automatic weapons only make up 4% of gun homicides, all gang related.

*A survey of 1,847 felons in 10 states found them more concerned about meeting an armed victim than running into the police.

*Concealed handgun laws reduced murder by 8.5 percent, rape by 5 percent and severe assault by 7 percent

*Dade County, Fla., kept meticulous records for six years, and of 21,000 permit holders, none was known to have injured an innocent person.Since Virginia passed a right-to-carry law, more than 50,000 permits have been issued, not one permit holder has been convicted of a crime and violent crime has dropped.

Source: National Center for Policy Analysis

http://www.ncpa.org/

[The Cougar]

How are they irrelavent in any sense, yes i understand it's extremely difficult to completely remove guns from America, but other countries previous illegelised guns from a legal status, France and other European countries used to have guns legalised.
They are irrelevant because you can't compare the gun situations in America and Europe, which makes it pointless to point out the difference in raw numbers. It makes far more sense to look at what happens when you try to ban guns in America.

You should wait for Matriel if you want to know gun history by the way.


A clampdown on illegal gun trade perhaps? Just like your harsh laws on drugs.

Going after illegal guns is obviously a better solution.

[bloodfletcher2]

It seems to me gun legalisation is a reaction to the illegal gun trade in the USA in modern times. The thing i want to know however, is why guns are so easy to attain illegaly, are they the same guns that are being used legaly, or do they come from another source? Also is there a large emphasis on cracking down on the illegal gun trade in the USA?

[DR.NUMBERS]

It seems to me gun legalisation is a reaction to the illegal gun trade in the USA in modern times. The thing i want to know however, is why guns are so easy to attain illegaly, are they the same guns that are being used legaly, or do they come from another source? Also is there a large emphasis on cracking down on the illegal gun trade in the USA?

Its a combination of factors really. Some guns come over the border in the South illegally but I think the biggest contributor is resale and straw purchasers.

For example, after a legitimate owner buys a gun he might give it away or sell it to someone else without going through all the legal paperwork. This may be innocent enough but eventually the gun might make its way into the wrong hands. People do this intentionally as well, in which case it isn't innocent. Someone without a criminal record buys guns and then sells them to those with criminal records (who couldn't normally obtain guns).

Some dealers don't give a shit about the law either and will sell without doing all the paperwork.

Even if there were an outright, total ban on guns tomorrow, the market is already so saturated that criminals would be able to get them easily while law-abiding citizens couldn't.

[Spinewire]

The problem with your argument is that America is already overflowing with illegal guns, and that they have had a gun culture since day one. This already means it's incomparable with western countries, so thinking that the strict gun laws are what makes western countries safe and lenient gun laws what makes America unsafe is fallacious.

If this doesn't convince you, imagine someone selling millions of illegal guns on the street of whatever country you are born in. Then try to blame lenient gun control when crime rates goes up. I'm sure you'll cry for guns as well.

So basically, the solution you are proposing to the problem of illegal guns and gun culture is to ban all legal guns, disarming the victims. Any sentient being would find this illogical.
This is spot on imo

[DR.NUMBERS]

The problem with your argument is that America is already overflowing with illegal guns, and that they have had a gun culture since day one. This already means it's incomparable with western countries, so thinking that the strict gun laws are what makes western countries safe and lenient gun laws what makes America unsafe is fallacious.

If this doesn't convince you, imagine someone selling millions of illegal guns on the street of whatever country you are born in. Then try to blame lenient gun control when crime rates goes up. I'm sure you'll cry for guns as well.

So basically, the solution you are proposing to the problem of illegal guns and gun culture is to ban all legal guns, disarming the victims. Any sentient being would find this illogical.

This is spot on imo

Indeed, well said.

[Spinewire]

*Myth: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime. Automatic weapons only make up 4% of gun homicides, all gang related.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/opeds/are_assault_weapons_a_threat_to_police.h tm

[bloodfletcher2]

Its a combination of factors really. Some guns come over the border in the South illegally but I think the biggest contributor is resale and straw purchasers.

For example, after a legitimate owner buys a gun he might give it away or sell it to someone else without going through all the legal paperwork. This may be innocent enough but eventually the gun might make its way into the wrong hands. People do this intentionally as well, in which case it isn't innocent. Someone without a criminal record buys guns and then sells them to those with criminal records (who couldn't normally obtain guns).

Some dealers don't give a shit about the law either and will sell without doing all the paperwork.

Even if there were an outright, total ban on guns tomorrow, the market is already so saturated that criminals would be able to get them easily while law-abiding citizens couldn't.

Then surely the illegalisation of guns would run the illegal gun source dry erdicating the problem, however with the current amount of guns in the country i see this as nigh on impossible. So yes i see gun legalisaiton as a means of inconveniant neccessity due to long-term influx of illegal guns in the country previously? This is correct?

[DR.NUMBERS]

Then surely the illegalisation of guns would run the illegal gun source dry erdicating the problem, however with the current amount of guns in the country i see this as nigh on impossible. So yes i see gun legalisaiton as a means of inconveniant neccessity due to long-term influx of illegal guns in the country previously? This is correct?

As far as you point is concerned, yes. Making guns illegal now would not stop criminals from getting them.


http://www.davekopel.com/2a/opeds/are_assault_weapons_a_threat_to_police.h tm


EDITED

Yeah exactly, and when they say "assault weapon" they mean anything with a magazine holding more than 10 rounds. Many pistols made in the last 20 years have 12-15 round magazines. So when they claim 23% of officers are killed with "assault weapons" they don't mean aks, uzis etc, they mean pistols. 23% were killed with pistols.

[The Cougar]

Its a combination of factors really. Some guns come over the border in the South illegally but I think the biggest contributor is resale and straw purchasers.

For example, after a legitimate owner buys a gun he might give it away or sell it to someone else without going through all the legal paperwork. This may be innocent enough but eventually the gun might make its way into the wrong hands. People do this intentionally as well, in which case it isn't innocent. Someone without a criminal record buys guns and then sells them to those with criminal records (who couldn't normally obtain guns).

Some dealers don't give a shit about the law either and will sell without doing all the paperwork.

Even if there were an outright, total ban on guns tomorrow, the market is already so saturated that criminals would be able to get them easily while law-abiding citizens couldn't.
You are correct.

http://www.wheredidtheguncomefrom.com/pages/Myths.html

[The Cougar]

Then surely the illegalisation of guns would run the illegal gun source dry erdicating the problem, however with the current amount of guns in the country i see this as nigh on impossible. So yes i see gun legalisaiton as a means of inconveniant neccessity due to long-term influx of illegal guns in the country previously? This is correct?
Yes, basically. That's not to say gun laws wont help though. A cap on how many purchases a person can make per month combined with background checks makes it more difficult for straw purchasers without pressuring the general public, for example.

Edit: Actually, I'll change my mind and disagree with you. In the face of a total ban tomorrow, the market will shift from straw purchasers and illegal sales from federally licensed gun dealers to various means of illegal gun import. With the amount of guns already in America combined with the opened market for illegal gun import, I can't foresee this solving the problem even in the long run, while having a drastic impact on increased homicide and crime rates in the short run.

[Spinewire]

Yeah but they are talking about any gun that has a magazine with more than 10 rounds. Many pistols made in the last 20 years have 12-15 round magazines. So when they claim 23% of officers are killed with "assault weapons" they don't mean aks, uzis etc, they mean pistols. 23% were killed with pistols.
It was to reinforce what you said not cast doubt on it, read further down.


Looking at the broader picture of all gun use in crime, it becomes clear that "assault weapons" are a minor part of the problem. Police gun seizure data from around the nation finds that "assault weapons" account for less than 2% of guns seized by the police; more typically, they account for less than 1%.

According the gun prohibition lobbies, Los Angeles is the "assault weapon" capital of the world, where scores of drive-by shootings every year perpetrated with these evil guns. But a study in the New England Journal of Medicine investigated the 583 drive-by shootings in Los Angeles in 1991 in which a person under the age of eighteen was shot at. "Use of an assault weapon was documented in one incident."

[DR.NUMBERS]

It was to reinforce what you said not cast doubt on it, read further down.

Oh okay, I was starting to think as much. Edited my response.

[Spinewire]

Oh okay, I was starting to think as much.
You numercial mother fucker have some faith. :sly:

[Connecticaine]

i guess this is a better ploy to get matriel in here than mine :D

Even if there were an outright, total ban on guns tomorrow, the market is already so saturated that criminals would be able to get them easily while law-abiding citizens couldn't.

I'd have to disagree, if you say law abiding in the since they wont purchase a gun illegaly then you might be right. But as a law abiding citizen myself with a clean record, i can drive 2 miles and purchase anywhere from a 22 to a tech 9 for under 1000 dollars.

Around here guns are almost as easy to buy as crack. And when a high percantage of illegal guns are stolen from within the states its getting easier.

I think one approach of gun control would be the creation of a law forces gun owners to have a safe storage in their house. Its proven to work and would eliminate, not only a cry for gun bans, but eliminate some of the illegal weapons on the market.

Its a combination of factors really. Some guns come over the border in the South illegally but I think the biggest contributor is resale and straw purchasers.

I notice theft of guns is rarely brought up on gun supporters, but still holds a big number, i believe its around 1 million or more unaccounted stolen firearms in the state, and an even bigger amount if you factor in the ones that are accounted for in 10 years.

Also i must disagree with guns coming from the south illegally, there is an overwhelming amount of guns illegally brought to mexico and such from the states.

[DR.NUMBERS]

i guess this is a better ploy to get matriel in here than mine :D



I'd have to disagree, if you say law abiding in the since they wont purchase a gun illegaly then you might be right. But as a law abiding citizen myself with a clean record, i can drive 2 miles and purchase anywhere from a 22 to a tech 9 for under 1000 dollars.

Around here guns are almost as easy to buy as crack. And when a high percantage of illegal guns are stolen from within the states its getting easier.

I think one approach of gun control would be the creation of a law forces gun owners to have a safe storage in their house. Its proven to work and would eliminate, not only a cry for gun bans, but eliminate some of the illegal weapons on the market.



I notice theft of guns is rarely brought up on gun supporters, but still holds a big number, i believe its around 1 million or more unaccounted stolen firearms in the state, and an even bigger amount if you factor in the ones that are accounted for in 10 years.

Also i must disagree with guns coming from the south illegally, there is an overwhelming amount of guns illegally brought to mexico and such from the states.


First part: I meant, if all guns were made illegal tomorrow, there would still be enough for criminals to easily get one. However, normal people would not be able to own one because it would be illegal.

Second part: According to all the sources I've seen, straw sales are the biggest contributor, then smuggling and then theft.

http://www.ncpa.org/

http://www.wheredidtheguncomefrom.com/pages/Myths.html

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

[Sabbathius]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081205/twl-guns-on-prescription-for-elderly-3fd0ae9.html

I wonder how many accidental deaths this will cause, many of them self inflicted.

The elderly cause more deaths on the highways every day than they would have with a fully automatic belt fed machine gun. Their hands shake and their aim sucks. Aiming an SUV along the sidewalk and being guided on one side by the buildings is so much easier.

And it's no laughing matter. I know a retired policeman in US who has pretty bad arthritis in both hands, he can't punch or grapple anymore without a severe pain, and a regular handgun is too difficult for him to fire and too painful without special cushioning, so he had to get a custom, which cost and arm and a leg. Hopefully this will be more affordable.

[Connecticaine]

First part: I meant, if all guns were made illegal tomorrow, there would still be enough for criminals to easily get one. However, normal people would not be able to own one because it would be illegal.

Second part: According to all the sources I've seen, straw sales are the biggest contributor, then smuggling and then theft.

http://www.ncpa.org/

http://www.wheredidtheguncomefrom.com/pages/Myths.html

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

im not arguing that theft sales are higher than straw sales. Just they account for a high number.

I just think smart, minor things well help rather than radical changes either way. We know a ban on weapons wont solve the problem, and the ability to own a firearm isnt working.

I think certain steps could be taken to ensure safety on people. More practical stuff like gun safety storage laws as opposed to either or the most powerful ignorant statements like "Ban all guns" or "give everyone a gun".

[heroshade]

Good thing those self inflicted gunshot wounds will be well deserved. You UK pussies have fun with your fun little 'safe' world over there eh?

[DR.NUMBERS]

im not arguing that theft sales are higher than straw sales. Just they account for a high number.

I just think smart, minor things well help rather than radical changes either way. We know a ban on weapons wont solve the problem, and the ability to own a firearm isnt working.

I think certain steps could be taken to ensure safety on people. More practical stuff like gun safety storage laws as opposed to either or the most powerful ignorant statements like "Ban all guns" or "give everyone a gun".


I guess I agree. I think if you have children it should be mandatory to keep your ammo and your weapon separate or in a safe. Or for a loaded hand gun that it be on your person or in a bedside safe. A lot of hand gun safes nowadays can be opened as quickly as pulling open a drawer so reaction time to break-ins would be no less.

E.g. one of these:

http://www.baxterlakesales.com/catalog/gunvpicgvb2000-a.jpg

http://www.selectoutdoordepot.com/images/BC113439410.jpg

Just as quick as opening a drawer or reaching under your bed. Just put your finger down and the door pops open.

[bloodfletcher2]

Good thing those self inflicted gunshot wounds will be well deserved. You UK pussies have fun with your fun little 'safe' world over there eh?

I'm comfortable living in a sane country. Pressing a trigger is really the pussyiest way to kill?

[heroshade]

I'm comfortable living in a sane country. Pressing a trigger is really the pussyiest way to kill?

Really? So when some prick pulls a knife on you and tells you to give him your wallet, the manly thing to do is to give it to him and let him anal-rape you with a switch blade? Hmmmmm, I see your logic.

[Connecticaine]

I guess I agree. I think if you have children it should be mandatory to keep your ammo and your weapon separate or in a safe. Or for a loaded hand gun that it be on your person or in a bedside safe. A lot of hand gun safes nowadays can be opened as quickly as pulling open a drawer so reaction time to break-ins would be no less.

E.g. one of these:

http://www.baxterlakesales.com/catalog/gunvpicgvb2000-a.jpg

http://www.selectoutdoordepot.com/images/BC113439410.jpg

Just as quick as opening a drawer or reaching under your bed. Just put your finger down and the door pops open.

It is 23 times more likely that a firearm will be stolen than used by a child to commit suicide or cause accidental injury or death.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm

[Sinter_Klaas]

By American logic the world would be the safest when everyones driving around in tanks with 36 barrels to keep everyone around you targetted at all times.

[Arkh]

I'm comfortable living in a sane country. Pressing a trigger is really the pussyiest way to kill?
In fact, it's exactly why guns are important. They're not aimed at helping young, in shape and martial trained men defend themselves. But to help women, old and/or disabled people who live in shitty neighbourhood.

[palo god]

By American logic the world would be the safest when everyones driving around in tanks with 36 barrels to keep everyone around you targetted at all times.

You don't need a tank to stop a criminal who breaks into your house.

[The Cougar]

It is 23 times more likely that a firearm will be stolen than used by a child to commit suicide or cause accidental injury or death.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm
That's hardly the point though. If a law like that would prevent only a few child deaths a year, it would be worth it.

[DR.NUMBERS]

It is 23 times more likely that a firearm will be stolen than used by a child to commit suicide or cause accidental injury or death.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm


Haha! That headline is classic.

[palo god]

It is 23 times more likely that a firearm will be stolen than used by a child to commit suicide or cause accidental injury or death.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm

"Guns are more likely to be stolen in states with high crime rates"

No shit lol!

[Oo_]

I'm comfortable living in a sane country. Pressing a trigger is really the pussyiest way to kill?

UK lawmakers don't seem to like more 'heroic' ways either. Wasn't there some kind of demonizing campaign against knives going on over there? :)

[DR.NUMBERS]

I'm comfortable living in a sane country. Pressing a trigger is really the pussyiest way to kill?

Yes, because when you are in a life or death situation, whether or not some guy on the internet will think you are a pussy is the first thing on your mind.

Also, you should try to explain that logic to Mr.Brown. I'm sure when you've won him over, your boys in the army will thank you once they have to trade in the SA-80's for spears. Surely, they wouldn't want to be pussies.

EDIT: Wow, looks like someone had the same idea during WWII.
http://www.home-guard.org.uk/hg/pics/hgpike01.jpg

Frankly though, spears are also for pussies, just so they don't have to get up close. If I were going to kill a man, I'd use a rock...or my teeth 'cause I'm not a pussy.

[heroshade]

By American logic the world would be the safest when everyones driving around in tanks with 36 barrels to keep everyone around you targetted at all times.
I hope somebody breaks into your house with a gun that they stole or got off the black market and kills your whole family and leaves you to weep at his shoes.

[DR.NUMBERS]

I hope somebody breaks into your house with a gun that they stole or got off the black market and kills your whole family and leaves you to weep at his shoes.

Will never happen. You only get murdered in Nederland if you are white and say something bad about muslims. Then you're a goner.

[Ball-In-A-Cup]

I like how most of the statistics say you are X-times more likely to be shot in America then in such-and-such European country...

Of course you're more likely to get shot! Any crime of passion in a gun-regulated country will be committed with knives, clubs, bare hands, etc... All this says is that people have to come up with more inventive ways to commit domestic violence outside of the U.S.

As for the generally higher murder rates, the vast majority of those come from various drug gangs killing one another. And that doesn't stem from our gun culture; it comes from the fact that about half of the countries south of our border have made selling drugs to America their country's #1 business.

Furthermore, if you actually look at the least regulated states, you'll find that they generally have the lowest levels of crime. Utah and Wyoming both have very easy gun laws and very little crime. Texas would be up there too if it weren't for all the drug running that goes on at the border. Even then, most of those crimes are committed with black market guns rather than legally purchased ones.

All this heat from W. Europe is just their governments trying to feel like they're somehow socially better than America. It's really rather pathetic if you ask me.

[Slaker]

Will never happen. You only get murdered in Nederland if you are white and say something bad about muslims. Then you're a goner.

Sweet man, I will try this!

[Rigan Pere]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

Seems like the law cannot protect them well enough, so this is their option.

[Jackhowitzer]

Because we aren’t afraid to defend ourselves no matter how old we are.

I can imagine an old person getting an assault rifle version of this tool :P and dealing death 360 degrees in their wheelchair :S.

[Bissen]

Less than cars, policemen, knives, buckets of water and the list goes on.

And your point is?

[ikhoefnix]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

Because sick bastards fuck with them. ie - burglarize

[ikhoefnix]

Another note: Stop calling gun owners pussy. Yes we do have some criminals in this country, but what fucking country doesn't. When the criminals are equipped with guns it is fairly stupid to defend yourself with.. a crowbar.. kitchen knife.. baseball bat.. any of the other stuff. Gun works best against gun.

[ikhoefnix]

By American logic the world would be the safest when everyones driving around in tanks with 36 barrels to keep everyone around you targetted at all times.

American logic huh? Our soil has a brain?

[Arkh]

And your point is?
Being against citizens having guns because "it may kill by accident" is totally stupid as a lot of authorized things already kills a lot by accident.

[Kin]

I love when people like to pretend they live in a world other then the real one... Where everyone is civilized and you can pretend that people who use firearms to protect themselves are the savages and brutal people.



I guess its real easier to make a stupid, ignorant assumption when you haven't been confronted by a relevant situation.


Let alone, When you live across the fucking ocean and wanna pretend you know what the hell its like somewhere else.




In closing, Jackasses. :D

[palo god]

Another note: Stop calling gun owners pussy. Yes we do have some criminals in this country, but what fucking country doesn't. When the criminals are equipped with guns it is fairly stupid to defend yourself with.. a crowbar.. kitchen knife.. baseball bat.. any of the other stuff. Gun works best against gun.

Owning a gun doesn't make you a pussy, being afraid of a tool makes you a pussy.

[Connecticaine]

Hi

im Great Brittan, and over here we ban guns. Because only pussys use guns.
Even tho gun crimes went up 200% after we made the ban.

fuckin america you guys are so backwards. Like when we went to war and marched in an honorable line, and you guys used terrain and camoflague.

so fuckin backwards.

[Fro]

Hi

im Great Brittan, and over here we ban guns. Because only pussys use guns.
Even tho gun crimes went up 200% after we made the ban.

fuckin america you guys are so backwards. Like when we went to war and marched in an honorable line, and you guys used terrain and camoflague.

so fuckin backwards.

I love the way you decided to use awful spelling and grammar when pretending to be from the home of the english language.

[palo god]

I love the way you decided to use awful spelling and grammr when pretending to be from the home of the english language.

Shut up frenchy.

[Connecticaine]

I love the way you decided to use awful spelling and grammr when pretending to be from the home of the english language.

Enlighten me then oh grammr official.

[Fro]

Enlighten me then oh grammr official.

I shouldn't of tried to be a grammar nazi, it doesn't suit me well. God i'm learning so much today.

[Hitom]

I fully support this, all americans should get guns to blow their brains out when their old enough and dont want to live anymore. It would become sort of like the japanese's harakiri, only with automatic rifles. Fuck that would own.

[DR.NUMBERS]

I fully support this, all americans should get guns to blow their brains out when their old enough and dont want to live anymore. It would become sort of like the japanese's harakiri, only with automatic rifles. Fuck that would own.

If I ever get to the point where I can't take care of myself or control my bodily functions... .45 caliber aspirin.

[Hitom]

If I ever get to the point where I can't take care of myself of control my bodily functions... .45 caliber aspirin.

Exactly, it would be cool if this where the new thing for american elderly citizens to be doing, if you consider the amount of fine automatic rifles produced by america.

[Lysandor]

Yet you're the ones with the worst homicide rate and firearm related crime rates. The fact that you have so many guns must be a factor.

durr? Of course the country with more domestic guns is going to have more domestic gun violence.

I understand Americas stance on individual rights but prevention is always better than the cure.

NEGATIVE! The logic avenue that says if normal people don't have guns, then criminals won't have guns does little to change the dynamic. The criminal is always armed or prepared for resistance if it is their intention to risk life and limb. It is your DUTY as a law abiding citizen to provide as much resistance as possible, up to and including termination of the criminal.

[Kin]

But standing up for yourself requires some testicular fortitude...

As evident by this post... Many lack this... So is it really their fault if they get trampled over and beaten down/oppressed??




You're fucking right it is.

[Tzacharu]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

If anyone should have guns, it's them. They are the most likely to be taken advantage of, and are by far the least likely to be able to defend themselves without the use of some firearm.

I've seen very few cases when granny is able to KO a crook with their sheer strength.

[Kailas]

Stop comparing European and American gun culture. There's no point, the whole rallying ideologies around it are completely different. We're still a hunting culture, they are not. We have, as far as nations go, extreme social liberties, they do not. Not to mention we have more than half the population of all of Europe combined. Of course we have more crimes than an individual European nation. We had to have a widespread gun culture, because earlier in our history it was necessary to hunt. Europe was growing and domesticating all their food before the advent of the gun as a hunting tool. We had not.

So now, regardless of whether it's good or bad that we have a widespread gun culture today, it's still wise to own a gun. Because the drug dealers, gangs and criminals aren't going to put their already illegally owned guns away just because the citizens don't have any.

Ironic argument, though, since I don't own a gun.

[Hitom]

If anyone should have guns, it's them. They are the most likely to be taken advantage of, and are by far the least likely to be able to defend themselves without the use of some firearm.

Oh wow, an old timer with guns and alzheimers would be just the sweetest thing, dont you think?

[saris]

ok well one american said. Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. — Benjamin Franklin

also "an armed society is a polite societ" Robert A. Heinlein

I think we should give them katanas though

[Ball-In-A-Cup]

I think we should give them katanas though

Those who live by the sword are shot by those who don't.
Granted Katanas are the epitome of badassery.

[The Cougar]

Oh wow, an old timer with guns and alzheimers would be just the sweetest thing, dont you think?
Yeah, Alzheimers will make you go on killing sprees.

[Drohn Moharri]

In my country people don't feel threatened enough, it's not a matter of afraid to defend yourself, it's a matter of how sad is it old and disabled people need guns to defend themselves. If people carry guns to defend themselves then attackers will feel the need to use guns, ending in more death and violent crimes.

guns are the great equalizer, an old lady with a gun vs. a big ol' dude with a gun isnt entirely even but its a lot more even than if they were both unarmed or had knives

[Drohn Moharri]

You are 60 times more like to be shot in US than UK, i don't see how the firearm being registered makes a difference, they encourage each other to increase either way. And gang crime is the cause of most murders in the UK also, containing "young black people".

What do you mean that doesnt make a difference? Apparently you want to ban guns. If we ban guns it won't do anything if most of the guns being used are illegal. Making them illegal again won't change a thing.

[Yobaj]

To not be victims.
If you're a criminal, who are you gonna attack ? The 2m, 120kg of muscle guy or the person in a weelchair ?
I would attack the guy, since he probably has more cash and stuff worth shit on him.

[Arkh]

Some british starting to see the light ?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article5299010.ece

[Spineless_DoO]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

Its more like they are being reminded of the right to protect themself rather then encouragment.

[Rothkiln]

CHL + http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=45932&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y with a HC 17 round mag full of hollow points > little pop gun in op... The only thing that discourages crime in progress are bullets whizzing by the criminal's head.

[Marrik]

having a gun didnt save that old lady, when the pigs busted down her door without identifying themselves.

[DR.NUMBERS]

having a gun didnt save that old lady, when the pigs busted down her door without identifying themselves.

But she did take one of them with her didn't she? Or at least put him up in the hospital.

[Kraven]

more opportunities to Darwinism to get a few shots in. I'm all for it.

[J2dabizzle]

With regard to how crime is recorded in Britain and America it seems that the US has two separate indexes for recording violent crimes where as the UK lumps them all together.

US The violent crime index:- comprises homicide, forcible rape, robbery and assault.
US The property crime index:- consists of burglary, larceny/theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.

source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

UK The crimes that are classed as 'violent crime' for the purposes of statistics, are robbery, sexual offenses, assault and murder.

source http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/violent-crime/

should probably be taken into account when comparing stats.

[StaticBlack]

I enjoy having the feeling that I don't need a gun to feel safe.

[Ziegler]

Wtf is wrong with your country, encouraging old and disabled people to have guns... why?

Maybe in your country they would use guns, but luckily this is a problem with your country and not the rest of the western world. The fact is i just find it sad that old and disabled people feel the need to carry guns with them out of fear.

I dont think this man was afraid, as much as...mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore (http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?s=9409212)

[DR.NUMBERS]

I dont think this man was afraid, as much as...mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore (http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?s=9409212)

Nice.

I remember someone posted an audio file a while ago in which an old man called the police after seeing his neighbor's house being robbed. The police told him to sit and wait. Robbers leave the house and start going across the yard. Old man: "I can't just sit here. I'm going to do something, they're going to get away."

Picked up his shotgun, went next door, shot one and the other fled. That's what I call looking out for one another in your community. For all he knew they might be armed and have already killed or injured the neighbors, that was a risk he took though.

[Ziegler]

Nice.

I remember someone posted an audio file a while ago in which an old man called the police after seeing his neighbor's house being robbed. The police told him to sit and wait. Robbers leave the house and start going across the yard. Old man: "I can't just sit here. I'm going to do something, they're going to get away."

Picked up his shotgun, went next door, shot one and the other fled. That's what I call looking out for one another in your community. For all he knew they might be armed and have already killed or injured the neighbors, that was a risk he took though.


Yeah, that was in texas, and there was a large thread on here about it. What wasnt made public through alot of it, was that there was an undercover policeman on the street in his car that seen it happen.

[holychicken]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081205/twl-guns-on-prescription-for-elderly-3fd0ae9.html

I wonder how many accidental deaths this will cause, many of them self inflicted.
The question shouldn't be how many accidental death it will cause, it should be how many accidental deaths vs deaths/crime prevented.

[Arkh]

Without gun : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3vWsa4ags
With gun : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ExC7fE1LaY

[DR.NUMBERS]

Other good ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUGADzEAV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdm67OkmL3s (Don't rob and beat someone on Christmas morning, got what you deserved.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSPQKwEJcn4



My favorite, unfortunately not on video, has to be the Dalton gang's bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas.
1. Citizen recognizes gang outside bank.
2. Gang goes in bank.
3. Citizen warns townspeople.
4. 50 townspeople arm themselves.
5. Gang leaves bank.
6. Townspeople open fire.
7. 4/5 gang members were killed, one survived with 23 gunshot wounds.

Coffeyville opened up a can of vigilantism on the Daltons.

[Nexus]

I don't want to live in a society where the eldery need guns to protect themselves.

I'll leave that to you guys.

[DR.NUMBERS]

I don't want to live in a society where the eldery need guns to protect themselves.

I'll leave that to you guys.

Maybe, hopefully, they will never need them. At least they will have the option.

Not so long ago there was a spree of break ins in Scotland where hoodlums would target elderly people, knock on the door and when it was answered would enter, beat and rob the residents. Sucks to be them I guess.

Or that case in Manchester last year where an old man pushed a burglar out of his window and was arrested. WTF. Don't climb through my 2nd story window with the intention of robbing me if you don't want to be pushed out. Simple as.

Both of my Glaswegian friends have been bricked and beaten and one threatened with a knife and that one them's father was also bricked almost 20 years ago shows that this is no short term problem. Why should these guys have to put up with this kind of shit just because they don't belong to the right "fleeto" or wear stupid tracksuits? Clearly the police weren't there (a reactive force, not pro-active) to help so I guess it just sucks to be them.

Against one ned you would have a chance of running or fending him off. Neds don't attack in ones though. They attack in threes or fives or more if you are particularly unlucky. Like that young woman and her boyfriend who were beaten by a group of chavs, she to death and he was hospitalized. Just because they dressed like faggy goths.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Too bad they had no legal means to defend themselves.

[Matriel]

I feel like this thread is my minions eating people. Nom nom nom.

Stop comparing European and American gun culture. There's no point, the whole rallying ideologies around it are completely different. We're still a hunting culture, they are not. We have, as far as nations go, extreme social liberties, they do not. Not to mention we have more than half the population of all of Europe combined. Of course we have more crimes than an individual European nation. We had to have a widespread gun culture, because earlier in our history it was necessary to hunt. Europe was growing and domesticating all their food before the advent of the gun as a hunting tool. We had not.

So now, regardless of whether it's good or bad that we have a widespread gun culture today, it's still wise to own a gun. Because the drug dealers, gangs and criminals aren't going to put their already illegally owned guns away just because the citizens don't have any.

Ironic argument, though, since I don't own a gun.

The Swiss have a pretty big gun culture. The Scandinavian states also have a pretty big hunting culture.

And the US gun culture isn't based upon hunting in the slightest.