Online Worlds Roundtable #5

[Gowel]

After contributing to the first stage of this roundtable, which comprised of Part 1 (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/500/500093p1.html) and Part 2 (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/500/500702p1.html), Razorwax' Claus Grovdal requested the opportunity to clarify his comments as a rebuttal to thoughts expressed by Mythic's Mark Jacobs in the second stage, which includes Part 3 (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/505/505223p1.html) and Part 4 (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/505/505844p1.html).

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/506/506327p1.html

[shiznit]

Wow, claus showed that guy from Mythic whos boss.:P
Claus made some good points, nothing we havent heard but still cool to
see devs talking about the buisness.

[JackRussel]

mark jacobs statement was just dumb so he had it coming. Nice media relations razorwax, getting the pwnage printed

[Archibald]

a good response, although I was hoping for more along the lines of...

stfu mark, omfgh u aer liek the sukc or soemthing? rolf rofl doac sux!11 lololol

:lol:

My point has to do with what's under the hood, the game mechanics; I am talking about what the players themselves are complaining about - like experience points, levels, leveling, camping, character classes and having to re-roll all the time, nerfing, turn-based combat, grinding, moving from one spot to the next for better experience points


whew thats daoc covered then ;)

[Alistair]

Lol. I'd call that a smackdown. It's remarkable how clueless some/most of those devs are. Great job Claus, keep up the good work!

--Alistair

[Elric[GoD]]

Mark Jacobs, Mythic Entertainment: Claus, you criticize the current crop of games as being simply "bland and boring..." but I notice on your website that your game uses Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Orks. Hmm, I must wonder why you fall back on using the same conventional races as most games do, including Dark Age of Camelot. Why didn't you chuck all the typical races and create new ones? For the same reason that most games don't, because people want to see something that they are familiar with already. Pot, meet kettle; kettle, meet pot. :)"

Did this guy even pay attention to what Claus said? I guess he could only dispute the races in DarkFall, rather than actually comprehend what Claus was arguing his case over.

[ryan10230]

I liked it

[Dozier]

i'm betting there will be a part 6

[Dominus]

Thats awesome, also great exposure for Darkfall. The first thing you see on the main screen of RPG Vault (http://rpgvault.ign.com) is a Darkfall logo.

[Renithir]

My point has to do with what's under the hood, the game mechanics; I am talking about what the players themselves are complaining about - like experience points, levels, leveling, camping, character classes and having to re-roll all the time, nerfing, turn-based combat, grinding, moving from one spot to the next for better experience points - in short, doing the same old stuff over and over again until your eyes bleed and you have nothing to show for it except a number indicating your level. A level that says everything about the time invested in the game, and virtually nothing about how good you are, or about how much fun you've had playing.

I usually avoid posting on these threads, but this was perfect. It shows that you guys do listen to the gamers in your community and others.

Thank you

[Porthios]

Mark is a moron, and that is why his game sucks. He did exactly what Claus said wouldn't work. He took EQ, gave it a face lift, and hoped it would work. Well, if his goal was to make money, then it worked. If his goal was to make a great game that would keep most people around for more than 3 months, then he failed miserably. His game is a shitty leveling treadmill that is a waste of time.

[Mars]

ToA left no room for doubt that Mythic wants DAoC to be the better EQ, and it is. Mythic is a good company and DAoC is a better EQ.

Mark isn't an idiot. Mark is a business man. Mark wants a profitable game, not a fun game. If the game happens to fun then great, but that's not Mark's goal.

Mark's idea of innovation is coming up with a new skin for an old game because he isn't a gamer. Mark doesn't know what a fun game is because he doesn't play games to have fun. Mark trying to design a fun game is like Richard Simmons trying to design a heterosexual workout video. It's beyond his capabilities.

I don't think that Mark was trying to diss anyone. I just think that Mark misunderstood what was being said and became defensive.

Mark, in case you happen by. Foot meet mouth; mouth meet foot.

[MacAngus]

Originally posted by Renithir@Apr 14 2004, 07:23 PM
My point has to do with what's under the hood, the game mechanics; I am talking about what the players themselves are complaining about - like experience points, levels, leveling, camping, character classes and having to re-roll all the time, nerfing, turn-based combat, grinding, moving from one spot to the next for better experience points - in short, doing the same old stuff over and over again until your eyes bleed and you have nothing to show for it except a number indicating your level. A level that says everything about the time invested in the game, and virtually nothing about how good you are, or about how much fun you've had playing.

I've never seens a more concise and accurate statement from a game developer.

I wonder how the other developers can be so out of touch though, its disconcerting.

[Mennovh]

I played DAOC for a while and Mythic made so many promises that took them so long to add to the game msot fo the players had left by then. I think when a company makes promises of more content to a game they shouldnt let their player base wait months or even longer to see that content added. Also Mythic released a very incomplete game that had no high level content for quite a while after the game was released.

I believe games are all about the game play. I would much rather play a 2d game with very fun game play then a state of the art graphics game that is the same as every other game on the market. Also with the Fantasy genre it only makes sense to use races that people are familiar with and like. Just because a gaming company is useing races that have appeared in other games doesnt make their game a better looking clone of other games on the market. I believe the staff of Darkfall is doing a very great job so far and they are actually doing something many gameing companies havent done. That is they are actually listening to thier gaming community. Great post in respone to Mythic, I found it quite amusing. ;)

[Preston]

Originally posted by Mars@Apr 15 2004, 10:46 AM
ToA left no room for doubt that Mythic wants DAoC to be the better EQ, and it is. Mythic is a good company and DAoC is a better EQ.

Mark isn't an idiot. Mark is a business man. Mark wants a profitable game, not a fun game. If the game happens to fun then great, but that's not Mark's goal.

Mark's idea of innovation is coming up with a new skin for an old game because he isn't a gamer. Mark doesn't know what a fun game is because he doesn't play games to have fun. Mark trying to design a fun game is like Richard Simmons trying to design a heterosexual workout video. It's beyond his capabilities.

I don't think that Mark was trying to diss anyone. I just think that Mark misunderstood what was being said and became defensive.

Mark, in case you happen by. Foot meet mouth; mouth meet foot.
I think the comment by Mars is partially true. I agree that Mark Jacobs is a business man and he's looking at profit margins as a top priority. However, any business man must recognize that making a "fun" game also makes the profit margin even bigger. Mark IS an idiot in this regard. And, he's also an idiot because he has no clue about what gamers really want!

I played DAoC from day one for about 5 months. It was awful. I left. You know why? BECAUSE EVERYTHING CLAUS WROTE IS TRUE!

That's why Razorwax is going to succeed in their plans for world domination. Well, world domination in the online gaming market anyway... ;)

[Nikolas]

I think Mark Jacobs did quite well with Daoc, I played and loved Daoc for 2 years. I left when they announced Trials of Atlantis and I read some shocking reviews. I had already spent hours, weeks, months levelling my toons to 50, spending loads of cash on items etc for pvp... So what happens? They bring out master levels that take ages to complete start to finish and artifacts with sick powers in pvp, you have to level your items from lvl1-10... So even more grinding. I think they lost a great deal of customers with that expansion.

My Ranger was nerfed so many times with changes that were made by Mythic to the archer classes. They repeatedly lied to their customers about new content and how it wouldn't effect pvp, they made it so casual pvp players had to use buff bots to stand a decent chance in pvp (making them even more money!)

What I did like about Daoc PvP was realm points and their XML. It was very nice seeing how many realm points people were making each week or which guild was leading in what realm etc on the web.

[Porthios]

Originally posted by Nikolas@Apr 19 2004, 07:34 AM
What I did like about Daoc PvP was realm points and their XML. It was very nice seeing how many realm points people were making each week or which guild was leading in what realm etc on the web.
If that's all you liked about it, then why the hell did you play? The PvP sucks, and you seem to dislike level grinding.

[Mars]

I take back anything nice that I may have ever said about DAoC. DAoC is no better than EQ. Can you say manwhore? (http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1439.shtml)

[Miz Demeanor]

:wub:
claus your awesome!!!!
I can't wait to play this game.

[bastard]

I seem to have missed this. Thanks :D

[Magical_Bart]

claus is officially, the man.. i should make a claus fansite, cuz really, hes the most sane person alive