If someone is following the election in Venezuela

[Tharkon Fargor]

Here's a blogg: http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2008/11/2008-election-day-events-post.html


It's right wing, but before the official results come up it's all we have.

This election will decide if Venezuela moves towards a democratic socialism or a more moderate Social-liberalism/Social democracy. There are almost no real right wing parties in Venezuela. The people have rejected them and their own tactical mistakes and failed coups cost them to much.

[Skyborn]

did chavez push the term limits vote again...I haven't been keeping up lately...

[palo god]

*reads title*

hahahahahaha... no.

[Tharkon Fargor]

o.O Ok. Fuck you then Palo.


nah its the reigonal election.

[Hippiez]

hell, even the canada election was more important then this. hell, where is venezualia, s america? jeese, who cares.

[Tharkon Fargor]

If PSUV and other supporting parties get the majority of reigonal seats then this means that the revolution is secure and that South America will be coloured red for a long time forward.

Chavez is the center of the left revolution in South America and he's holding together both the Perovians to the Communists. From Argentina to Cuba, Brazil to Equador.

If he holds his ground here then we have a new and much more free and democratic union of socialist republics in SA within a few years :)

[DocGonzo]

vast oil fields...owners of all those Citgo gas stations, you should pay attention and care just a little, imo

[palo god]

vast oil fields...owners of all those Citgo gas stations, you should pay attention and care just a little, imo


Telling someone to care about Venezuela's elections is like telling someone to care about Canada's armed forces.

[Spart]

You care about the Venezuelan elections? Fuck, I should have posted stuff about the Australian one when it came around.

[BananaEvasion]

Here's a blogg: http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2008/11/2008-election-day-events-post.html


It's right wing, but before the official results come up it's all we have.

This election will decide if Venezuela moves towards a democratic socialism or a more moderate Social-liberalism/Social democracy. There are almost no real right wing parties in Venezuela. The people have rejected them and their own tactical mistakes and failed coups cost them to much.

People haven't rejected anyone. Chavez has black listed all opposition candidates, making it impossible for anyone who hasn't tastes his salty balls to run for an office.

Also, simply because someone isn't a pinko commie sociopath as yourself does not mean they are a right wing anything. Just because someone still considers themselves a conscious human being who has a right to make profit of their labor, own a property and not have some stranger come and steal their shit, does not mean they are right wing radicals, seriously.

[Tharkon Fargor]

People haven't rejected anyone. Chavez has black listed all opposition candidates, making it impossible for anyone who hasn't tastes his salty balls to run for an office.

Also, simply because someone isn't a pinko commie sociopath as yourself does not mean they are a right wing anything. Just because someone still considers themselves a conscious human being who has a right to make profit of their labor, own a property and not have some stranger come and steal their shit, does not mean they are right wing radicals, seriously.

Definetly not. Has Chavez claimed that you cannot earn money of their labour? IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist.

Do you think that those who earn money by lending money to others or by having their accountants buy stocks for them (a.k.a. Capitalists) earn money by their labour? No they earn money because they have money and this system is not only immoral to an extent, it is also wastefull. You have tons of these people who many probably are bright and instead of them actually working for a company and creating jobs and a future all they do is look on shorterm profits and how to squeeze more cash out of something.

[BananaEvasion]

vast oil fields...owners of all those Citgo gas stations, you should pay attention and care just a little, imo

Doc, where is the suitcase? I NEED MY MEDICINE AND GRAPEFRUITS!

On a side note, I can in a way relate to some who chose not to care about the actual elections in Venezuela. I mean, seriously, do you expect any change? Are you seriously having some hopes that someone who hasn't seen all the hidden corners and alleys of Chavez's asshole to win? If we are being realistic here, no, we shouldn't give a shit about those elections. It's like paying attention to elections in Myanmar or Saudia Arabia.

[BananaEvasion]

Definetly not. Has Chavez claimed that you cannot earn money of their labour? IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist.

Do you think that those who earn money by lending money to others or by having their accountants buy stocks for them (a.k.a. Capitalists) earn money by their labour? No they earn money because they have money and this system is not only immoral to an extent, it is also wastefull. You have tons of these people who many probably are bright and instead of them actually working for a company and creating jobs and a future all they do is look on shorterm profits and how to squeeze more cash out of something.

Seriously, just keep this nonsense in your social studies classroom, I'm sure your teacher will give you A for the effort. Thank god our global politics and realities aren't made in middle/high school social studies class discussions.

[DocGonzo]

Doc, where is the suitcase? I NEED MY MEDICINE AND GRAPEFRUITS!



you know how i get with my supplies as the night progresses...

but perhaps two of the "blue ones" will tide you over....

no one has ever complained about the blue ones

[palo god]

Definetly not. Has Chavez claimed that you cannot earn money of their labour? IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist.

Do you think that those who earn money by lending money to others or by having their accountants buy stocks for them (a.k.a. Capitalists) earn money by their labour? No they earn money because they have money and this system is not only immoral to an extent, it is also wastefull. You have tons of these people who many probably are bright and instead of them actually working for a company and creating jobs and a future all they do is look on shorterm profits and how to squeeze more cash out of something.

Wow, I haven't quoted this much bull shit in a while.

[Toxic Waste]

Wow, I haven't quoted this much bull shit in a while.

Wow. I haven't quoted a person who doesn't know how make an argument or present valid evidence in... a week and a half or so.

Not saying you're wrong, and I really don't give a fuck about what anyone on this thread (except Doc and blue ones) is talking about. Just make sure that, when you call something bullshit, you specify why it's bullshit.

[palo god]

Wow. I haven't quoted a person who doesn't know how make an argument or present valid evidence in... a week and a half or so.

Not saying you're wrong, and I really don't give a fuck about what anyone on this thread (except Doc and blue ones) is talking about. Just make sure that, when you call something bullshit, you specify why it's bullshit.

I don't have to make an argument when someone is so obviously wrong.

"IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist"

Ya I'm not going to dignify this with an argument.

[BananaEvasion]

Wow. I haven't quoted a person who doesn't know how make an argument or present valid evidence in... a week and a half or so.

Not saying you're wrong, and I really don't give a fuck about what anyone on this thread (except Doc and blue ones) is talking about. Just make sure that, when you call something bullshit, you specify why it's bullshit.

It doesn't take much evidence to show that all he wrote is bullshit. I'll walk you through it. First read his post, then think for a second, and now you should know that it's all bullshit. Is it easier to understand it now?

[DocGonzo]

actually...i gotta go with Toxic on this one...

show your proof, or at least the reasoning behind your hypothesis, even versus something that's seemingly clear to you

anything less is sloppy and lazy, imo...

[Toxic Waste]

I don't have to make an argument when someone is so obviously wrong.

"IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist"

Ya I'm not going to dignify this with an argument.

Which is exactly why you are never an will never be taken seriously. You fail to specify why his argument is "obviously" wrong, and fail to take into consideration that he may be right before you make your out of hand dismissal. Indeed, you have also failed to ask him to state his logic when coming to this conclusion, hereby severely limiting your understanding. There is more to point of view than the statement of position.

It doesn't take much evidence to show that all he wrote is bullshit. I'll walk you through it. First read his post, then think for a second, and now you should know that it's all bullshit. Is it easier to understand it now?

I understood what he typed perfectly the first time, and the second time. I see the flaws and truths in his statement, whereas you only see the flaws (see above: limited understanding).

actually...i gotta go with Toxic on this one...

show your proof, or at least the reasoning behind your hypothesis, even versus something that's seemingly clear to you

anything less is sloppy and lazy, imo...

EDIT: He said with less rambling.

[Bawlin]

Which is exactly why you are never an will never be taken seriously. You fail to specify why his argument is "obviously" wrong, and fail to take into consideration that he may be right before you make your out of hand dismissal. Indeed, you have also failed to ask him to state his logic when coming to this conclusion, hereby severely limiting your understanding. There is more to point of view than the statement of position.



I understood what he typed perfectly the first time, and the second time. I see the flaws and truths in his statement, whereas you only see the flaws (see above: limited understanding).



EDIT: He said with less rambling.

Don't play semantics, it's a fucking waste of time. You know what he said was false, so why is there purpose for an argument?

[BananaEvasion]

Which is exactly why you are never an will never be taken seriously. You fail to specify why his argument is "obviously" wrong, and fail to take into consideration that he may be right before you make your out of hand dismissal. Indeed, you have also failed to ask him to state his logic when coming to this conclusion, hereby severely limiting your understanding. There is more to point of view than the statement of position.



I understood what he typed perfectly the first time, and the second time. I see the flaws and truths in his statement, whereas you only see the flaws (see above: limited understanding).

I'll just leave it at this. If you are going to defend an idiot who has absolute no clue about politics, political and social ideologies, and the world realities, then do so, all right is yours. Just don't expect anything else but be categorized and labeled with him and his kind, the morons.

It's like saying Communism is a wonderful and practical sociopolitical ideology. Have fun with that.

[palo god]

I understood what he typed perfectly the first time, and the second time. I see the flaws and truths in his statement, whereas you only see the flaws (see above: limited understanding).

Since you understand it so perfectly and since you think there are “truths in his statement”, can you tell me what exactly you see as truth in his post?

[Toxic Waste]

Don't play semantics, it's a fucking waste of time. You know what he said was false, so why is there purpose for an argument?

Oh, dear god, arguing about arguments. Lovely. Listen, in debate (intelligent or otherwise) it's not about your understanding. Chances are, your understanding is already set in stone and what the other guys says doesn't matter. But everybody else who reads the statement will see that your only argument was to present some half-assed insult and not present any actual evidence. Not to mention, as Doc said, it's just lazy not to support your understandings with at least rudimentary evidence and leaving it to "common" sense, which isn't in any form common any more.

random crap blah blah blah, etc.

See above rant.

Since you understand it so perfectly and since you think there are “truths in his statement”, can you tell me what exactly you see as truth in his post?

"No they earn money because they have money and this system is not only immoral"

"all they do is look on shorterm profits and how to squeeze more cash out of something"

[palo god]

Oh, dear god, arguing about arguments. Lovely. Listen, in debate (intelligent or otherwise) it's not about your understanding. Chances are, your understanding is already set in stone and what the other guys says doesn't matter. But everybody else who reads the statement will see that your only argument was to present some half-assed insult and not present any actual evidence. Not to mention, as Doc said, it's just lazy not to support your understandings with at least rudimentary evidence and leaving it to "common" sense, which isn't in any form common any more.

If someone says the moon is made out of cheese you don’t dignify their response with an argument, and since they would be stupid enough to believe that the moon is made out of cheese there is no hope for them anyways, making it a waste of time and intelligence.

[Toxic Waste]

If someone says the moon is made out of cheese you don’t dignify their response with an argument, and since they would be stupid enough to believe that the moon is made out of cheese there is no hope for them anyways, making it a waste of time and intelligence.

If they believe the moon is made out of cheese, chances are they either, in all seriousness and lack of insult, are mentally retarded or five years old, in which case it is your duty to inform them why it is not made out of cheese and how many times history has proven it is not made out of cheese. If they still believe that it is, at least no other five-year-olds who were listening would be under the same illusion.

Indeed, the only thing that is a waste of intelligence is not using what little of it you have to actually do something useful. If you hoard it to yourself for your entire life, when you die you have contributed nothing to the world of any value.

[Barbarossa]

Perhaps the Europeans should try to influence the vote like they did with us.

Oh wait, they want Chavez because he hates us too.

[DocGonzo]

at least no other five-year-olds who were listening would be under the same illusion.

and there you have it, kiddies...

[Jackhowitzer]

Definetly not. Has Chavez claimed that you cannot earn money of their labour? IF you were a true supporter of earning money of your labour you'd be a socialist.

Do you think that those who earn money by lending money to others or by having their accountants buy stocks for them (a.k.a. Capitalists) earn money by their labour? No they earn money because they have money and this system is not only immoral to an extent, it is also wastefull. You have tons of these people who many probably are bright and instead of them actually working for a company and creating jobs and a future all they do is look on shorterm profits and how to squeeze more cash out of something.


Or when you make money you could be smart with money, and perhaps start a business of your own after saving? Get an education, get in a lucrative sector that needs employees and pays well, there's a lot of opportunity, maybe not when the economy is quite down, but when it's up.. yeah, I think you're idea of a capitalist society is a bit clouded. Sure, there's people that profit off of others, can it be immoral, yes? Is it immoral all the time, no. Not everyone can be the head of a multi-million dollar franchise or corporation. You can invest without an accountant, you can learn to do stocks yourself, knowledge is power most of the time.

[Dimgo]

I hate all presidents is south america especially Chavez what a fucking retard, a bunch of socialists!

We need a Ron Paul

Edit: I cant believe it! Chavez is charging 282 millions in taxes of a Brazil company, Bolivia already stole Brazil then Equator and now Venezuela

And Brazil takes it like a little girl, hate my president

[Tharkon Fargor]

Current updates can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_regional_elections,_2008

Chavez has won all except the three. Also two more that are to close to call and a few that with most certainty will go to Chavez but are to massive to have been counted fully yet. Remember though that the leading party in all three cases are Social Democratic+A splinter group of the communists+A democratic socialist party opposing the referendum and a Centrist party for more local democracy.

http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/


@Dimgo...Your president takes it because he's doing the same to others. The people wish to keep their wealth and not have their wealth that they worked for stolen from them like it happend in Argentina 10 years ago.


knowledge is power most of the time.
Knowledge should be free and then everyone would make sound choices.
I don't have problems with rich CEO's that have worked their butts of for their companies. Even though obviously I would forbid any CEO taking out a bonus if the company value is going down or if workers are being fired at mass.

I have a problem with the huge capitalist owners that seek short term profits and ruin companies compared to if they had built something with their hands (or minds) and fought for it!

[Scully]

Wow. I haven't quoted a person who doesn't know how make an argument or present valid evidence in... a week and a half or so.

Not saying you're wrong, and I really don't give a fuck about what anyone on this thread (except Doc and blue ones) is talking about. Just make sure that, when you call something bullshit, you specify why it's bullshit.

Jesus fucking christ. When are people gonna realize palo is a troll?

[Tharkon Fargor]

Jesus fucking christ. When are people gonna realize palo is a troll?

He isn't. :ohno:

[Scully]

He isn't. :ohno:

He posts ignorant shit in every thread. He's a troll, no one is that stupid.

[Silverhandorder]

He is ignorant and a troll to fabian socialists who think accounts should work for free LOL.

Too many fools to waste my time on.

[Eskareon]

I have a problem with the huge capitalist owners that seek short term profits and ruin companies compared to if they had built something with their hands (or minds) and fought for it!

So you only have a problem with, at most, %0.01 of CEOs.

Edit: It's actually probably far less than that, even.

[Tharkon Fargor]

So you only have a problem with, at most, %0.01 of CEOs.

Edit: It's actually probably far less than that, even.

I have a problem with everyone owning stocks including myself, lol.
And the more stocks you own while doing less work the bigger problem I have with you.

But yeah, I don't have a problem with CEO's for being CEO's.
Obviously due to my ethical and moral views I have problems with those who treat their workers badly or take out bonuses without the company going well and things like this. But that could very well happen in state run companies to. The risk is just smaller IMO. He who thinks that a management profession isn't needed in every system is an idiot.

[Silverhandorder]

I have a problem with everyone owning stocks including myself, lol.
And the more stocks you own while doing less work the bigger problem I have with you.

But yeah, I don't have a problem with CEO's for being CEO's.
Obviously due to my ethical and moral views I have problems with those who treat their workers badly or take out bonuses without the company going well and things like this. But that could very well happen in state run companies to. The risk is just smaller IMO. He who thinks that a management profession isn't needed in any system is an idiot.

You have no idea how real life works.

[Tharkon Fargor]

You have no idea how real life works.

What don't I know concerning this?
Don't you think that I know how the investement world works? How companies are created nowdays?

The difference in the past would be that a few people would bind together, invest in a company and share the responsibility of that company if they didn't have enough cash to do so themselves. Today you loan your company to someone random investor that then flushes in money into your dream with the goal to build up a company and to see it grow and to get rich by doing so but in search for short term profits. He will then probably sell this stock to someone ellse that again will vote for short term profits at the next stock meeting upon which he will sell his shares until there is nothing left to squeze from the company and it goes bancrupt or has to fire workers or cut quality.

Ofcourse the even worse option is loaning money instead of loaning your company through selling shares of it, cause then you are under direct slavery of the banks and today we see the good effects of that system.

In my opinion you shouldn't be able to own a stock in a company if you don't work in it. And when you wish to sell your stock in it to someone ellse, that person should take up your or an other position and work in that company. This would ensure long term developement of the company.
That being CEO, worker or who ever invested in there. This isn't the case with the majority of investors today.

Obviously in a more worker-collective enviroment each worker would technichly own a stock in the company. The workers (everyone, regardless of position) would become the stock owners of the company and then they would procede to vote for the best candidate for CEO position as todays short-term oriented stock owners do.

[Silverhandorder]

What don't I know concerning this?

If you havent learned by now there is no hope for you.

[Tharkon Fargor]

If you havent learned by now there is no hope for you.

Knowing something does not mean I support it. :bang:

[Silverhandorder]

Knowing something does not mean I support it. :bang:

No seriously there is no hope for you. The conclusions you come to are far out there.

[Tharkon Fargor]

No seriously there is no hope for you. The conclusions you come to are far out there.

:ohno: OH NOEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

[Skyborn]

Ok here's the deal people.

Having faith in the Venezuelan "democratic" system at this point is akin to believing that Santa Claus exists...both are figments of the imagination. (though I seriously wish Santa was real)

Anyway, the only saving grace in this situation is the general population of Venezuela. They have proven over the past 2-3 years that they are willing to rise in force against their gov't.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Ok here's the deal people.

Having faith in the Venezuelan "democratic" system at this point is akin to believing that Santa Claus exists...both are figments of the imagination. (though I seriously wish Santa was real)

Anyway, the only saving grace in this situation is the general population of Venezuela. They have proven over the past 2-3 years that they are willing to rise in force against their gov't.

Ehm, at this point?
How exacly has Chavez changed Venezuela in an undemocratic way? Politicly...Obviously you don't agree with closing TV stations and such.

Chavez tried with a constitution reform and failed and then backed down.
Compared to America or Sweden where our governments have passed real anti democratic and privacy invading legislation without even asking us I'd say that Venezuela is in alot better shape. Opinion polls suggested this result to. They said that 5-6 would be turn away from Chavez. Currently its probable that 5 would.

Oh yeah, they proved that when they took down the CIA funded dictatorship that couped Chavez! Good point. Though I think you got the years wrong.

[Barbarossa]

Ok here's the deal people.

Having faith in the Venezuelan "democratic" system at this point is akin to believing that Santa Claus exists...both are figments of the imagination. (though I seriously wish Santa was real)

Anyway, the only saving grace in this situation is the general population of Venezuela. They have proven over the past 2-3 years that they are willing to rise in force against their gov't.

Santa Claus doesn't exist?!

Thanks for blowing my whole Christmas all to hell, Skyborn...

[Skyborn]

I am going to go post on the Hello Kitty: Island Adventure boards and tell all the kiddies Santa ain't real.

[Barbarossa]

i am going to go post on the hello kitty: Island adventure boards and tell all the kiddies santa ain't real.

I dare ya...in fact I double dare ya.

posts links please.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Caracass is claimed by the old Social Democratic leader Antonio Ledezma while Alto Apure is still uncertain.

Governors go 5 to the opposition and 17 to Chavez. An increase by 3 for the opposition that in Chavez's defense has moved more to the left and so drawn more moderate socialists to them.


Venezuela remains in strong PSUV charge and this will be a test of endurance and credibility. If the opposition can prove itself capable of running the capital city and reducing crime and push forward democratic reform in it then Chavez may find a tuff future and a moderate social democracy a lá Europe will be seen rising in Venezuela

If the socialist revolution can despite low oil prices continue its huge GDP growth of 8% per year and use those funds to provide even more jobs, healthcare and education then the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) and Chavez may very well lead Venezuela and South America away from the World Bank and socialliberalism and to a new peoples socialism where the workers dictate all their hours, not just 16 hours of them.

Issues that may come from this is continued nationalization of Gas and Oil industry in Venezuela and across SA (Bolivia, Brazil etc), an entrenched Cuban communist party not backing down even with the new charismatic leadership of the US providing incitement and possibly it could lead to a surrounding of Colombia, Americas last ally and a future political victory of the guerilla there through "demilitarization" pushed forward by Chavez as already attempted, credited to socialism and not America.