Communism vs capitalism

[Fro]

I was watching a programme last night and it brought up an interesting point about similarities between communism and capitalism and it got me thinking. I know almost all of this forum with few noteable excpetions are for capitalism and strongly against communism.

My question is why? What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

[hardboiled]

Individual rights.

[Fro]

Individual rights.

I assumed that would be the response.

[Shads]

I was watching a programme last night and it brought up an interesting point about similarities between communism and capitalism and it got me thinking. I know almost all of this forum with few noteable excpetions are for capitalism and strongly against communism.

My question is why? What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

Big Macs and polluted rivers. Oh, wait ...

[Drudley]

I assumed that would be the response.

Thats all? Really?

[Dimgo]

Because i defend freedom and you cant have freedom with the state controling everything

[Fro]

Thats all? Really?

Anything else you can think of?

[hardboiled]

Because i defend freedom and you cant have freedom with the state controling everything

Actually in communism the people are supposed to control everything.

[Drudley]

Anything else you can think of?

No, I just kinda hoped your thread would have a point of some kind, my bad.

[Ozzy Wrong]

I don't, because I understand Communism and don't associate it with the Communist Party.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Anything else you can think of?

Is there any answer that is more important.

[Dimgo]

Actually in communism the people are supposed to control everything.
The people = the state, not me and everything is perfect in theory

[alhazred]

this is the reason

it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees ...

some people who think they need the states help will never understand that kind of pride


Because i defend freedom and you cant have freedom with the state controling everything
/thread

[alhazred]

Actually in communism the people are supposed to control everything.

i found the key word

[Fro]

No, I just kinda hoped your thread would have a point of some kind, my bad.

There is.

Is there any answer that is more important.

Communism or atleast Marxism is supposed to be a way to achieve complete freedom.

[palo god]

I prefer capitalism over communism because capitalism can actually work. *expects douche bag hard left response*

[Fro]

I prefer capitalism over communism because capitalism can actually work. *expects douche bag hard left response*

Communism can work aswell but currently both systems are broken.

[Carbonlegend]

Right testicle or the left one

[palo god]

Communism can work aswell but currently both systems are broken.

I'm sure communism can work and that's why we have so many true communist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

[hardboiled]

There is.



Communism or atleast Marxism is supposed to be a way to achieve complete freedom.

"With communism you can indulge your desire for power over other peoples' lives more directly than if you became a witch doctor or a social worker.
What is unacceptable about capitalism is that it makes it possible for some people, sometimes, to do things that the collective does not want done."
-Celia Green

[Carl Ragadamn]

Communism or atleast Marxism is supposed to be a way to achieve complete freedom.

Ya except it doesnt factor for human greed, and therefore leads to oppressive state control. Communism fails anytime the group practicing it gets large enough that every person doesnt know the name and life of the other people involved. Only Capitalism works when spread over a large scale.

[Paganini]

Because of our media propaganda, it's quite effective

[Ozzy Wrong]

this is the reason

it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees ...

some people who think they need the states help will never understand that kind of pride


What part of living in a community that shares its wealth and privileges is "Living on your knees"?

[Shads]

I'm sure communism can work and that's why we have so many true communist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

Because there haven't been any yet? Capitalism took a while to be accepted and evolve to its current form, so why would it be different for communism?

[Fro]

I'm sure communism can work and that's why we have so many true communist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

The only reason capitalism is working is because of the huge difference in life standards and the fact that the american economy is being held up by the poor people in china.

[Septus]

What part of living in a community that shares its wealth and privileges without leaving one man do die in the streets while another lives in a mansion is "Living on your knees"?

So as long as I just do nothing, I can haz your stuffz?

[palo god]

What part of living in a community that shares its wealth and privileges without leaving one man do die in the streets while another lives in a mansion is "Living on your knees"?

Because if the majority suffer and you are the only hard worker you suffer with them.

[Carl Ragadamn]

What part of living in a community that shares its wealth and privileges without leaving one man do die in the streets while another lives in a mansion is "Living on your knees"?

The part where you need an over arching power to enforce fairness in large groups.

[holychicken]

I'm sure communism can work and that's why we have so many true communist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:
And I bet true capitalism can work and that is why we have so many true capitalist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

Funny, I am pretty sure you have argued numerous times in favor a completely free market based on the fact that one has never existed before. FTR, the same is true for communism.

Note: I am not arguing in favor of communism.

[hardboiled]

What part of living in a community that shares its wealth and privileges is "Living on your knees"?

I guess not being allowed to own a mansion fits.


And I bet true capitalism can work and that is why we have so many true capitalist countries all over the world.

Funny, I am pretty sure you have argued numerous times in favor a completely free market based on the fact that one has never existed before. FTR, the same is true for communism.

Note: I am not arguing in favor of communism.

The nearly capitalist countries(Hong Kong, Singapore) are much better off than the nearly communist countries(Cuba, Vietnam). Though I guess you could attribute the rise of USSR to a world power from the shithole that Russia was as an achievement of communism.

[Fro]

Ya except it doesnt factor for human greed, and therefore leads to oppressive state control. Communism fails anytime the group practicing it gets large enough that every person doesnt know the name and life of the other people involved. Only Capitalism works when spread over a large scale.

True, capitalism caters perfectly to human greed and desire for advancement but maybe if communism had been spread over the enitre globe it would work.

[Ozzy Wrong]

I guess not being allowed to own a mansion fits.

Why can't you own a Mansion?

[palo god]

The only reason capitalism is working is because of the huge difference in life standards and the fact that the american economy is being held up by the poor people in china.

The reason capitalism works is because people get what they work for. In a capitalist country its not just about working hard its about working smart as well if you want to succeed.

The American economy was doing fine when we weren't buying from china.

[Drudley]

Capitalism sucks, pretty much, there's things rich people can do that aren't illegal, but gives them more power than governments, thats not right imo.

[Fro]

The reason capitalism works is because people get what they work for. In a capitalist country its not just about working hard its about working smart as well if you want to succeed.

The American economy was doing fine when we weren't buying from china.

You only get what you work for because some other person isn't.

[hardboiled]

Why can't you own a Mansion?

Because not everyone can own a mansion?

[Drudley]

The American economy was doing fine when we weren't buying from china.

Hahaha, thats funny, it's because of capitalism that you do buy from China, does that mean capitalism is bad for the US?

[alhazred]

There is.



Communism or atleast Marxism is supposed to be a way to achieve complete freedom.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

have you even read marx lol lol lol lol

about how every entity is enslaved and doomed to be replaced by its own creation can you even the basics of his Dialectical arguments

[Carl Ragadamn]

True, capitalism caters perfectly to human greed and desire for advancement but maybe if communism had been spread over the enitre globe it would work.

No it wouldnt, because capitalism allows for someone to go beyond their current state, and communism at that level sets up for tyranny. Any time you have to cede that much power up to an organization the potential for crazies to highjack the direction is nearly a certainty.

[Ozzy Wrong]

Because not everyone can own a mansion?

Where did you get this idea that everyone has to live in equal housing?

[palo god]

And I bet true capitalism can work and that is why we have so many true capitalist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

Funny, I am pretty sure you have argued numerous times in favor a completely free market based on the fact that one has never existed before. FTR, the same is true for communism.

Note: I am not arguing in favor of communism.

The thing is free markets are possible, Communism isn't, that's the difference. selling weed could be considered a free market and look how successful that is.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Hahaha, thats funny, it's because of capitalism that you do buy from China, does that mean capitalism is bad for the US?

nope, and if we were stopped from buying from china, we would still be fine. Capitalism does not guarantee a high quality of life, it allows you to achieve it thru hard work.

[alhazred]

Why can't you own a Mansion?

do you know the the definition of econmics is

"the science and managment of scarece resourses"

for comunisum to work with freedom there needs to be unlimited resources

[moneda]

What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

They confuse capitalism with democracy and believe in order to have one you must have the other. They don't even care, or know mostly, that they don't live in a democracy.

[palo god]

Hahaha, thats funny, it's because of capitalism that you do buy from China, does that mean capitalism is bad for the US?

Free markets arent bad, if he had free markets and a fair tax or flat tax we could compete with china, so no capitalism isn't bad.

[Drudley]

nope, and if we were stopped from buying from china, we would still be fine. Capitalism does not guarantee a high quality of life, it allows you to achieve it thru hard work.
If you were stopped from buying from China, you would be better of than you are now.

But capitalism kinda caters to greed and greed says make more money.

So capitalism has screwed over the US workers.

[alhazred]

nope, and if we were stopped from buying from china, we would still be fine. Capitalism does not guarantee a high quality of life, it allows you to achieve it thru hard work.

exactly

communisum lets some people ride on the backs of others who work hard

i hate to say it but no one here is equal in mind or body nor is anyone here equal in assets so for us all to become equal us with more must give to those with less and we thwart your logic with a simple question

WHY?

why should i give to you who have not earned it

[Carbonlegend]

The part where you need an over arching power to enforce fairness in large groups.

Nope the invisible hand takes care of all that.
Communism has been adopted by countries and the power has been miss used terribly. Communism should evolve from a capitalist state.

[Ozzy Wrong]

nope, and if we were stopped from buying from china, we would still be fine. Capitalism does not guarantee a high quality of life, it allows you to achieve it thru hard work.

Which is why all those single mothers working 2 part-time jobs live in mansions, while the kids of wealthy parents who don't work at all live in the ghetto?

I'd like anyone to show me one example of a Democratic-Communist country. It's never been tried before.

[palo god]

Because there haven't been any yet? Capitalism took a while to be accepted and evolve to its current form, so why would it be different for communism?

Because communism goes against human nature while capitalism works with human nature.

[Drudley]

Free markets arent bad, if he had free markets and a fair tax or flat tax we could compete with china, so no capitalism isn't bad.

Wut? Without cutting wages?

[PaleOne]

Because the choice you offer is between freedom and slavery.

if you think money is the root of all evil, read this and get a new understanding

http://www.turtletrader.com/atlas_shrugged.html

[palo god]

Which is why all those single mothers working 2 part-time jobs live in mansions, while the kids of wealthy parents who don't work at all live in the ghetto?

I'd like anyone to show me one example of a Democratic-Communist country. It's never been tried before.

You have to work *smart* and hard.

[alhazred]

If you were stopped from buying from China, you would be better of than you are now.

But capitalism kinda caters to greed and greed says make more money.

So capitalism has screwed over the US workers.

lol lol lol no "to big to fail" has

i do econ that is my subject it is what i get paid to do if you want to see what screwed us workers it was teh government and the greed of the poor

it was the everyone deserves a house mentality that caused people to default on there loans it was the we can let a buisness fail that prompted the bail out and damned us all

it was opening up government banks and saying you dont need to turn a profit and if you fail then you get paid any way

it was this socialistic idea of getting value for failure that caused this issue

[moneda]

Because communism goes against human nature while capitalism works with human nature.

This is the best reasoning for capitalism there could ever be. Which is horrendously unfortunate.

[palo god]

Wut? Without cutting wages?

Yes. technology > man power.

[Drudley]

Because communism goes against human nature while capitalism works with human nature.

Wanna link to some peer reviewed... Whats it called? Papers, materials, journals? You know, that proves that?

[moneda]

You have to be lucky.

:rolleyes:

[alhazred]

You have to work *smart* and hard.

true true no matter how long you leave me in the woods with an axe and my wits i cant build a computer and talk to you via satalite and the person who can make that happen hehe guess what i will be hunting to support him

that is what we call capitalism

[Drudley]

Yes. technology > man power.

Indeed, and how long do you think it takes for them to copy it?

[moneda]

Wanna link to some peer reviewed... Whats it called? Papers, materials, journals? You know, that proves that?

Man is by it's nature greedy. Capitalism allows him to nurture that nature.

[holychicken]

The thing is free markets are possible, Communism isn't, that's the difference. selling weed could be considered a free market and look how successful that is.
The drug trade is not a free market. There is this huge restriction on it, the fact that it is illegal to transport, buy, and sell drugs in the US. Not to mention it leads to the exploitation and murder of countless people. Honestly, using it as an example of the success of a free market is as ridiculous as me saying that it is evidence that huge government restriction of something makes it successful.

But anyway, even if we want to pretend it is a free market, a single industry does not make a case for an entire system. Keep in mind that China is a communist state and is, in fact, very successful.

[Drudley]

Man is by it's nature greedy. Capitalism allows him to nurture that nature.

Please to tell me how that is in any way GOOD.

If anything that's the best reason to not have capitalism.

[Drudley]

The drug trade is not a free market. There is this huge restriction on it, the fact that it is illegal to transport, buy, and sell drugs in the US. Not to mention it leads to the exploitation and murder of countless people. Honestly, using it as an example of the success of a free market is as ridiculous as me saying that it is evidence that huge government restriction of something makes it successful.

But anyway, even if we want to pretend it is a free market, a single industry does not make a case for an entire system. Keep in mind that China is a communist state and is, in fact, very successful.

China is as communist as Cuba is free market.

[palo god]

The drug trade is not a free market. There is this huge restriction on it, the fact that it is illegal to transport, buy, and sell drugs in the US. Not to mention it leads to the exploitation and murder of countless people. Honestly, using it as an example of the success of a free market is as ridiculous as me saying that it is evidence that huge government restriction of something makes it successful.

But anyway, even if we want to pretend it is a free market, a single industry does not make a case for an entire system. Keep in mind that China is a communist state and is, in fact, very successful.

Lol china isn't Communist, and yes selling weed is a free market since the people that do sell it, sell it without government regulation.

[PaleOne]

Man is by it's nature greedy. Capitalism allows him to nurture that nature.


Wrong.

Capitalism allows men to peacefully trade their labor and property through mutual agreement.

Socialism and communism involve seizing that property by force and handing it to people who don't deserve it.

You have two choices. money or violence.

[moneda]

Please to tell me how that is in any way GOOD.

If anything that's the best reason to not have capitalism.

I never said it was good.

[Skree]

Pretty funny thread.

Skree

[alhazred]

This is the best reasoning for capitalism there could ever be. Which is horrendously unfortunate.

why be ashamed of what you are

and it isnt just human nature is is biological nature every living thing has this nature it is what kept it alive even plants grab as much sunlight as they can even if it kills other plants

if you think that you can live with out being capitalistic in this way think about this the human race and all life that we know feeds off of biological substances

bacterium feed off of other cells

plants feed off of dead biomatter (we call it soil)

all animals feed off of plants or other animals

everything feeds off of somthing

all life is just a cycleing of biomass where the energy to convert and cycle is provided by the sun

it is evolution that the strongest survive if you cant function and earn your way plz for the sake of future generations drop out of the gene pool

[Ozzy Wrong]

Man is by it's nature greedy. Capitalism allows him to nurture that nature.

Quite the contrary. Years of materialism have mad us greedy for wealth, years of oppression have made us greedy for power. It is society that we live in that shapes our nature.

[palo god]

Please to tell me how that is in any way GOOD.

If anything that's the best reason to not have capitalism.

The only way we could have true communism is if we were all mindless robots.

[moneda]

Wrong.

Capitalism allows men to peacefully trade their labor and property through mutual agreement.

Socialism and communism involve seizing that property by force and handing it to people who don't deserve it.

You have two choices. money or violence.

Because capitalists don't seize property by force, right? :lmao:



That question is rhetorical by the way.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Indeed, and how long do you think it takes for them to copy it?

notice they are always having to copy the innovations of others, not out innovating things themselves.

[Drudley]

notice they are always having to copy the innovations of others, not out innovating things themselves.

So? It's the smart thing to do, it's what everyone would do if they could, unless of course they had a better idea.

[palo god]

Indeed, and how long do you think it takes for them to copy it?

It doesn't matter if we can make the same products for just as cheap legally we don't have to buy from them, and by the time they do copy that technology we will have better technology.

[alhazred]

Quite the contrary. Years of materialism have mad us greedy for wealth, years of oppression have made us greedy for power. It is society that we live in that shapes our nature.

i prepose nature vs nurture and state that our first society could not be shaped by a previouse one so it must have been shaped by its surroundings being the wild and natural world... as such it is the competition to survive and the dangers of the natural world that shaped our first culture and each is based off of that first

the real base is not society but nature itself

[moneda]

why be ashamed of what you are

and it isnt just human nature is is biological nature every living thing has this nature it is what kept it alive even plants grab as much sunlight as they can even if it kills other plants

if you think that you can live with out being capitalistic in this way think about this the human race and all life that we know feeds off of biological substances

bacterium feed off of other cells

plants feed off of dead biomatter (we call it soil)

all animals feed off of plants or other animals

everything feeds off of somthing

it is evolution that the strongest survive if you cant function and earn your way plz for the sake of future generations drop out of the gene pool

Why be ashamed of being greedy? Your response failed with that first question. Also, the myth that the hardest working people are the only ones who achieve success in a capitalistic economy is so tired it's about the collapse in exhaustion.

Quite the contrary. Years of materialism have mad us greedy for wealth, years of oppression have made us greedy for power. It is society that we live in that shapes our nature.

But we have shaped the society.

[palo god]

:rolleyes:

No, you just think that because you're a lazy poor person.

[sorros]

communism works well on paper, but does not work due to the nature of humans. Same with a dictator.

[Tiberias]

Greed is the fuel for capitalism. We're always striving for more. Bigger, better, faster, stronger. Karl Marx had some good ideas, but the problem was greed. Communism/Marxism essentially ignores greed.

I prefer Capitalism because it is the only system based on human reality.

[Ozzy Wrong]

But we have shaped the society.

And why can't we reshape it for future generations?

[Drudley]

The only way we could have true communism is if we were all mindless robots.

Nah, we just need a clean slate.

And proper programming.


Just consider a world where there is no scarcity, would we need capitalism? money? would the concept of greed even exist in our society?


It's not fucking impossible to achive!

Just takes some hard work, you know.

[moneda]

No, you just think that because you're a lazy poor person.

I think that because I live in America, with my eyes open.

[Ozzy Wrong]

Nah, we just need a clean slate.

And proper programming.


Just consider a world where there is no scarcity, would we need capitalism? money? would the concept of greed even exist in our society?


It's not fucking impossible to achive!

Just takes some hard work, you know.

This guy's got it.

[sorros]

Nah, we just need a clean slate.

And proper programming.


Just consider a world where there is no scarcity, would we need capitalism? money? would the concept of greed even exist in our society?


It's not fucking impossible to achive!

Just takes some hard work, you know.

it is impossible. its humanity we're talking about here.

[palo god]

I think that because I live in America, with my eyes open.

No Its because you live in America with your eyes closed, on your ass, with your hands out and open "waiting for some change".

[StainlessSteelRat]

do you know the the definition of econmics is

"the science and managment of scarece resourses"

for comunisum to work with freedom there needs to be unlimited resources


/thread

[Drudley]

it is impossible. its humanity we're talking about here.

Fuck you, many times, very roughly.

[moneda]

And why can't we reshape it for future generations?

I don't know really. People have this seemingly innate leaning to do everything in there power to live the best lives they can at the cost of the well-being of other people.

[moneda]

No Its because you live in America with your eyes closed, on your ass, with your hands out and open "waiting for some change".

I'd love for you to even attempt to prove that, hyperbolic troll. :rolleyes:

[moneda]

/thread

He defined economics, not capitalism, and he was apparently wrong (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/economics).

[Duncandun]

I prefer capitalism over communism because capitalism can actually work. *expects douche bag hard left response*

No I'm pretty sure true capitalism is just as much of a pipe dream as true communism.

[palo god]

I'd love for you to even attempt to prove that, hyperbolic troll. :rolleyes:

I would love for you to prove that communism works, see I can play that game too.

[holychicken]

Lol china isn't Communist, and yes selling weed is a free market since the people that do sell it, sell it without government regulation.
China pure communist? Nope. Which is part of their success. The ability and willingness of the government to adapt to the times has brought them success, which is much the same as to why the USSR did not survive. But they are still very much communist.

And try all you want to pretend that an illegal market is free, but that is just nonsense. The restriction is that you have to be willing to go outside the law in order to sell it. That is a HUGE government imposed restriction. Sorry, but there is no denying that.

[Ozzy Wrong]

No Its because you live in America with your eyes closed, on your ass, with your hands out and open.

Just like that single mother I referred to earlier, working two part time jobs that take up here entire day but only pay minimum wage because apparently you have to work "Smart", which really only means your family has to be privileged enough to afford you a college education, and the only way she is able to feed her kids because of the welfare check she receives every week.

What a parasite.

[moneda]

I would love for you to prove that communism works, see I can play that game too.

I don't think I've said that once in this thread... though I'd love very much to see at least one group of people try an actual democratic, communist society.

[sorros]

Fuck you, many times, very roughly.

excuse me gud syr, i iz onlee trying to tel teh trooth.

btw, who the hell said China is communist? You believe you're 7th grade history teachers too much

[palo god]

China pure communist? Nope. Which is part of their success. The ability and willingness of the government to adapt to the times has brought them success, which is much the same as to why the USSR did not survive. But they are still very much communist.

And try all you want to pretend that an illegal market is free, but that is just nonsense. The restriction is that you have to be willing to go outside the law in order to sell it. That is a HUGE government imposed restriction. Sorry, but there is no denying that.

If you think china is in any way communist you're a dumb ass, if the government regulation doesn't affect a market then its not regulation.

/truth
/shit load of communists on this thread

[Duncandun]

palo you are such a moran

[PaleOne]

Because capitalists don't seize property by force, right? :lmao:



That question is rhetorical by the way.

True capitalists don't. This country has been even close to true capitalism for a long time.

Capitalists buy things, they don't take them

[palo god]

Just like that single mother I referred to earlier, working two part time jobs that take up here entire day but only pay minimum wage because apparently you have to work "Smart", which really only means your family has to be privileged enough to afford you a college education, and the only way she is able to feed her kids because of the welfare check she receives every week.

What a parasite.

Why the fuck does she have kids then if she cant feed them? emotional argument is emotional.

[moneda]

If you think china is in any way communist you're a dumb ass, if the government regulation doesn't affect a market then its not regulation.

/truth
/shit load of communists on this thread

i iz in ur cuntry
bein comunizt

[palo god]

palo you are such a moran

I'm sure I care what a communist advocate thinks.

[moneda]

True capitalists don't. This country has been even close to true capitalism for a long time.

Capitalists buy things, they don't take them

Buy things from other capitalists who take them from...

[Layedballer]

Communism is one of those things that looks beautiful on paper.(anarchy etc as well) The only problem is when the key ingredient is injected into the equation it takes an unpredictable turn for the worse

[stalwart]

simple: I can allocate my resources better than someone else can.

[moneda]

Why the fuck does she have kids then if she cant feed them? emotional argument is emotional.

Come, come now. A person's current situation isn't always their own fault. She could've had a well-providing husband who was taken from her, and his kids, and now must go it alone. Don't blind yourself.

[palo god]

This thread is full of lulz.

[Paganini]

lol@ anyone who considers Stalin or Mao marxists

[moneda]

Communism is one of those things that looks beautiful on paper.(anarchy etc as well) The only problem is when the key ingredient is injected into the equation it takes an unpredictable turn for the worse

Hey, keep y'ur hands off my anarchy. :sly:

[StainlessSteelRat]

He defined economics, not capitalism, and he was apparently wrong (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/economics).

The study of how the forces of supply and demand allocate scarce resources.

Many ways to describe economics but the underlying truth of what he posted remains.

And who said anything about capitalism?

[Tiberias]

Come, come now. A person's current situation isn't always their own fault. She could've had a well-providing husband who was taken from her, and his kids, and now must go it alone. Don't blind yourself.

Should give up the kids for adoption, IMO.

[moneda]

This thread is full of lulz.

I <3 this thread.

[Layedballer]

Hey, keep y'ur hands off my anarchy. :sly:

You know it's true ;)
I <3 this thread.

These threads always turn into one massive I'm right and you're wrong with retarded facts etc...It is quite hilarious

[Ozzy Wrong]

I don't think I've said that once in this thread... though I'd love very much to see at least one group of people try an actual democratic, communist society.

Guess who said that like 20 posts ago?
Either we think alike or someone's finally listening to me.

[moneda]

1. Many ways to describe economics but the underlying truth of what he posted remains.

2. And who said anything about capitalism?

1. I disagree.
2. This thread is about Capitalism!

Should give up the kids for adoption, IMO.

Cooooold blooded. :ninja:

[moneda]

You know it's true ;)

I still think political assassinations should make a come back.

Guess who said that like 20 posts ago?

Pffft, quote me plz.

[GFH_Spike]

Communism does not provide for the private ownership of the means of production, hence a lack of full control over one's privately held property. I am entirely against that and view it as a form of theft. Economic freedom is a form of personal freedom.

To enforce the ownership of the means of production by the community, force must be used, therefore communism is a violent and oppressive system of government that could only come to pass by tyranny of the majority.

Summary: Communism fails to protect economic freedom. I reject it on that basis.

[Fro]

I knew this would be a good thread topic.

[Shads]

Because communism goes against human nature while capitalism works with human nature.

So, tell me again, what are you doing outside your cave ? Shouldn't you be dragging your woman by the hair and eating your offspring or something?

This argument is bullshit circular logic - we can't change anything because we can't change ourselves, hence we shouldn't try changing ourselves.

[Jezrith]

Communism is one of those things that looks beautiful on paper.(anarchy etc as well)


Enslaving the individual to appease the whims of a mob is never good, even on paper.

[Carl Ragadamn]

I knew this would be a good thread topic.

I am proud of you for creating a semi-worthwhile thread, it is like watching a kid with downs syndrome make a sandwich for the first time.

[palo god]

I knew this would be a good thread topic.

You know you just posted it for +1s.

[Layedballer]

I still think political assassinations should make a come back.


I'm they will soon enough, kinda like fads that die out but come back years later

[Dimgo]

Reading this thread i see one thing :

Americans knows that capitalism is freedom and they know hard workins pays-off and live the reality

Europeans think about a world that everyone hugs eachother and a huge state controls everything and everyone is happy

[StainlessSteelRat]

1. I disagree.
2. This thread is about Capitalism!

Cooooold blooded. :ninja:

Why do you disagree w/ the statement: "communism w/ true freedom requires unlimited resources."?

This thread is about communism and capitalism. It wasn't mentionned in either of our posts which is why I asked why you brought it up in response. And he certainly never claimed to be defining capitalism....

[Fro]

I am proud of you for creating a semi-worthwhile thread, it is like watching a kid with downs syndrome make a sandwich for the first time.

I decide whether to take that comment as an insult or a complement.

You know you just posted it for +1s.

Nope otherwise i would of posted in it more instead of going off and doing something else. I just thought it would be an interesting discussion and i could learn quite a bit from it.

Anyways i wouldn't want to derail my own thread....

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Because there haven't been any yet? Capitalism took a while to be accepted and evolve to its current form, so why would it be different for communism?

Communism was given 80 years and failed just as miserably as it did in the beginning.



The state .. without competition can never properly estimate the needs of the consumer.. they will never improve their products over the bare minimum needed for function.. there is no incentive. People will never have the freedom of choice.. because there simply isnt any. You get one kind of toilet paper, one kind of toothbrush, one kind of TV dinner (LOL as if such a thing existed that wasnt ripped off from the west)

The ONLY time the communists ever came up with anything new was when it was stolen from a capitalist economy. If it werent for us.. they still wouldnt have had computers.

It took them YEARS of reverse engineering to come up with the most basic IC's and even those were archaic compared to ours.

The reality is if it werent for competition with the west.. Communist Rusia in the late 80's would have been living in the early 50's

I find it hard to beleive that there are some of you that dont realize that competition drives innovation.. many of the wonderful toys you play with exist because of capitalist competition.. making the mouse trap better.. and not because of central collective.

fro is just a goofy ass kid whose never had a real job.. but some of you spouting this pro commie idiocy are adults who've worked and been out in the real world.. what the fuck is wrong with you all? Did college brainwash you that bad? Or are you just so sick of your lower middle/impoverished existence that you'd cut off your noses to spite your face and force everyone else into your hellish misery with bullshit like communism?

[Shads]

Communism is one of those things that looks beautiful on paper.(anarchy etc as well) The only problem is when the key ingredient is injected into the equation it takes an unpredictable turn for the worse

I'd rather go for something that looks beautiful on paper than something that is ugly in reality.

[palo god]

I'd rather go for something that looks beautiful on paper than something that is ugly in reality.

You get to have the entire cake and eat it too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Carl Ragadamn]

I'd rather go for something that looks beautiful on paper than something that is ugly in reality.

Ok when you find something that fits this bill let us know, because communism is ugly in reality when applied to large groups.

[Layedballer]

Enslaving the individual to appease the whims of a mob is never good, even on paper.

Communism promotes a classless society, it also provides common ownership. It also provides that the people who work will control everything. This causes for everyone to be equal and receive the same benefits, causing there to be no civil unrest since everybody is going through the same thing so there is no rich getting rich while poor get poorer. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that

[moneda]

1. Why do you disagree w/ the statement: "communism w/ true freedom requires unlimited resources."?

2. This thread is about communism and capitalism. It wasn't mentionned in either of our posts which is why I asked why you brought it up in response. And he certainly never claimed to be defining capitalism....

1. I don't believe that resources become scarcer more rapidly in a communist society than they would in a capitalistic one.

Q for you: Why does capitalism manufacture scarcity?

2. He claimed to be defining economics...
do you know the the definition of econmics is

"the science and managment of scarece resourses"
... and I found a link that defined it differently.

[Layedballer]

I'd rather go for something that looks beautiful on paper than something that is ugly in reality.

The problem is, it's ugly in reality as well

[Jezrith]

Communism promotes a classless society, it also provides common ownership. It also provides that the people who work will control everything. This causes for everyone to be equal and receive the same benefits, causing there to be no civil unrest since everybody is going through the same thing so there is no rich getting rich while poor get poorer.


A.K.A. - The individual is a slave to the whims of the collective, I see nothing beautiful about that.


Unfortunately it doesn't work like that


Even if it did it would still be a horrible.

[Fro]

A.K.A. - The individual is a slave to the whims of the collective, I see nothing beautiful about that.

Does that not happen in capitalism aswell?

[Carl Ragadamn]

This thread needs a book long post, someone shake Surly or Hecubis free from beta for a min.

[moneda]

fro is just a goofy ass kid whose never had a real job.. but some of you spouting this pro commie idiocy are adults who've worked and been out in the real world.. what the fuck is wrong with you all? Did college brainwash you that bad? Or are you just so sick of your lower middle/impoverished existence that you'd cut off your noses to spite your face and force everyone else into your hellish misery with bullshit like communism?

I loved college for the very reason you seem to hate it. I learned to think freely and for myself. Also, if you think that "lack of competition" was the only thing that kept commie Russia down you must not have paid much attention in college... or high school.

[Jezrith]

Does that not happen in capitalism aswell?

Since the driving factor behind capitalism is based upon free will choice, no.

[Ozzy Wrong]

This thread needs a book long post, someone shake Surly or Hecubis free from beta for a min.

I'm sure Spike is perfectly capable, but he's already done his part.

[moneda]

Since the driving factor behind capitalism is based upon free will choice, no.

The driving force behind capitalism is capital. :ninja:

[Manifoldgodhead]

I'd like anyone to show me one example of a Democratic-Communist country. It's never been tried before.

Um, Democracy and Communism are two types of Government while Communism and Capitalism, one is an economic system while the other is a government system. A democracy can have any kind of economic system it wants as long as the majority of people want it. Communism is a government system that has an economic system as a part of it. Where as a democracy can decide to take everything and distribute it equally if the need arises, a communist government HAS to do that all of the time.
The United States is socialist has been since the Great Depression, if your doing just fine in the U.S. the government doesn't bother you, if your doing terrible the government helps you, if your doing REALLY well the government takes some of your wealth and helps those who are doing really terribly. Until Bush who has used the crises that have befallen the U.S. to push his own agenda: mostly attacking Middle Eastern Countries and moving public money to private hands and then taking private debt and putting it in public hands

[Jezrith]

The driving force behind capitalism is capital. :ninja:

Not quite. Capital would be stagnant if it weren't for the the choices of men.

[Layedballer]

A.K.A. - The individual is a slave to the whims of the collective, I see nothing beautiful about that.



Even if it did it would still be a horrible.

You're seeing communism how it is employed, not how it is in theory.

[StainlessSteelRat]

1. I don't believe that resources become scarcer more rapidly in a communist society than they would in a capitalistic one.

Sure they do. You are trying to give everyone an equal share ad infinitem.

Q for you: Why does capitalism manufacture scarcity?

Scarcity is. It's not manufactured by any economic 'method'. (I'm not sure I understand your question b/c what you did ask seems obvious.)

2. He claimed to be defining economics...

... and I found a link that defined it differently.

OK...... And I found a link different than yours.... Re-read your first response to me and then follow that progression through, then get back to me on Part 2 because you are going a different direction.

[alhazred]

I loved college for the very reason you seem to hate it. I learned to think freely and for myself. Also, if you think that "lack of competition" was the only thing that kept commie Russia down you must not have paid much attention in college... or high school.

yes but i think his point is that there alot of people in academiea who are so far entrenched in there positions they teach people that that position is an open one and all eles is closed

saddly many people are mouldable and are fooled this way many of the "free thinkers" havent had a free thought in years but they have been told that there brand of spoon fed idoligy is free thought

infact many people call republicans closed minded when infact it is there informed dissent that makes them not so

there are a few free thinking liberals out there left but most are gone now
liberman was one

right or wrong look at the way his party treated him when he strayed from the set path the "free thinkers" had set

the issue is it is hard to tell if you are a free thinker or if you have just been told you are

((((((((speaking of free thinking libs there is some other european guy who has his head on strait i love the guy that he is actually open minded if not a little to socialist for my taste but i respect the fact that he actually thinks)))))))

[moneda]

Um, Democracy and Communism are two types of Government...

Communism is a socioeconomic structure...

:ninja:

[Ozzy Wrong]

Um, Democracy and Communism are two types of Government while Communism and Capitalism, one is an economic system while the other is a government system. A democracy can have any kind of economic system it wants as long as the majority of people want it. Communism is a government system that has an economic system as a part of it. Where as a democracy can decide to take everything and distribute it equally if the need arises, a communist government HAS to do that all of the time.
The United States is socialist has been since the Great Depression, if your doing just fine in the U.S. the government doesn't bother you, if your doing terrible the government helps you, if your doing REALLY well the government takes some of your wealth and helps those who are doing really terribly. Until Bush who has used the crises that have befallen the U.S. to push his own agenda: mostly attacking Middle Eastern Countries and moving public money to private hands and then taking private debt and putting it in public hands
I'm not going to even bother with the second paragraph, but no, communism is not a government system. It is purely economic.
Sorry you had to write all that, it seems really hard to write something that makes so little sense.

[alhazred]

You're seeing communism how it is employed, not how it is in theory.

yes and in theory i could take over the world ... yet

yes communisum is possible but think about what must be done for it to work

population must be controled because if everyone is given equal share of a finite resourse then what happens when population increases?

the share of the resourse gets smaller and everyone gets poorer

there can be no such thing as love

for if i have fair share in all eles how come no attractive women will sleep with me... this is not fair we have this eliminatied monetary inequities and highlighted sexual and social inequities

all these inequites must be eliminated so bonded marriage and the physical attention of a woman can not be monopolized


you are finding so many problems just trying to figure our the monitary aspects of communisum but there is still far more to address



for is not he idea of the nicest most attractive guy gets the girl capitalist

[Shads]

Ok when you find something that fits this bill let us know, because communism is ugly in reality when applied to large groups.

It has never been applied. All that happened was that an oppressive elite (the "Communist Party") formed a dictatorship under the guise of directing a 'revolution'.

[Ozzy Wrong]

yes and in theory i could take over the world ... yet

So you're saying theories hold no merit?
There goes evolution.

[alhazred]

I'm not going to even bother with the second paragraph, but no, communism is not a government system. It is purely economic.
Sorry you had to write all that, it seems really hard to write something that makes so little sense.

the point is that this economic system must be monitered and controled so lets just appoint a third party group to do that and for the sake of ease we shall call it a government

[Septus]

Did college brainwash you that bad?

I agreed with a lot of your post, but I had to single this part out. Unlike the regurgitated crap you hear from rednecks with zero education, colleges don't instill socialism in students. :eek:

As for all the "purists" out there (speaking of capitalism), think about this. If all the people had voting shares in industries (not profit sharing, but a separate class of stock), we could just /votekick fuckin CEO's out of various banks and such.

You could implement a system that gives DEPOSITORS these special voting shares, since the banks are in fact investing your money.

I just think it's pathetic to assume that our current brand of capitalism is even as EFFICIENT as it could/should be, let alone ideal.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

I loved college for the very reason you seem to hate it. I learned to think freely and for myself. Also, if you think that "lack of competition" was the only thing that kept commie Russia down you must not have paid much attention in college... or high school.

Of course I dont think thats the only thing that kept it down.. but it was one of the primary factors that kept them living in the fuckng dark ages and kept the majority of their population near starvation. One could write a post a hundred pages long and still not hit all the reasons why communism is a complete failure .. except in the mind of failures.

As far as college.. I have a degree in Molecular Biology.. so i didnt take all that liberal bullshit coursework very seriously.. as I still have yet to see anyone with a good job who did.

[Jezrith]

You're seeing communism how it is employed, not how it is in theory.

No, I'm not. Read Marx and Engles again, it's just as terrible philosophically as it is in reality. No rights of property, the individual under the boot of the collective, that's what it is on paper.

[moneda]

Not quite. Capital would be stagnant if it weren't for the the choices of men.

In a communist society you mean? There would be no capital.

Sure they do. You are trying to give everyone an equal share ad infinitem.

Wrong. Trying to give everyone their wants or needs as scarcity allows.

Scarcity is. It's not manufactured by any economic 'method'. (I'm not sure I understand your question b/c what you did ask seems obvious.)

Wrong. See: Diamonds.

OK...... And I found a link different than yours.... Re-read your first response to me and then follow that progression through, then get back to me on Part 2 because you are going a different direction.

All I was doing was quoting him and providing a link that made his argument (that economics is "the science and managment of scarece resourses") not accurate. No further direction going. :ninja:

[Manifoldgodhead]

It is purely economic.


Actually no, in it's original form Communism was an end result of an entire society's evolution. It is a structure for existence. Generation after generation of arguing will eventually lead to an entire society that is in the proverbially "middle". Especially in this the so-called "information-age" where everyone has access to huge amounts of data to use in processing their every action. Eventually we all end up using the same information and come up with the same conclusions.

[Connecticaine]

Communism is a GREAT IDEA!

if you dont factor in pride,ego or the wanting of a life better than your neighbor :D

[Jezrith]

In a communist society you mean? There would be no capital.


No I don't. Regardless, there is always capital, and always will be.

[Sho'nuff]

It has never been applied. All that happened was that an oppressive elite (the "Communist Party") formed a dictatorship under the guise of directing a 'revolution'.

As far as I remember, most tribes (or any other small groups of poeple) usually employ a communistic style of governing. As most tribes tend to grow and expand the com. starts to fail and has to change to something else.

[CuriousGeorge]

True, capitalism caters perfectly to human greed and desire for advancement but maybe if communism had been spread over the enitre globe it would work.

Greed is the key component to capitalism, its why the system works. I don't know why people still defend communism, it didn't work so we should leave it alone, humanity still needs to evolve more to rid itself of greed.

[alhazred]

So you're saying theories hold no merit?
There goes evolution.

if you want to hold to the scientific definiton of theory then there is no theory of communisum there only a hypothisis

a theory is verafiable through repeatable tests and has gaind the general acknowlagement from scientific peer publications

hypothisis is what you think will happen (basicly and educated guess)

oddly enough did you know that the existance of atoms is still just a theory infact we call it the atomic theory


(yet i know no well read individual who thinks they dont exist, theorys are generaly right

[killino]

Both are inherently flawed because the people who lead are flawed..

In theory BOTH forms say the people are in charge and in the beginning they are... as time moves forward people learn how to manipulate the system to benefit themselves.

Ultimately I believe in capitalism bc it gives the illusion the harder you work the better you will do. I don’t believe in communism bc you definitely cant improve your standard of living past your neighbors.

Ill give you two examples of what I personally see.
Bill Gates - billionaire, worked hard, out did and out smarted his competitors.

Alexey Pajitnov - created one of the most addicting games of all time - tetris.
Not a billionaire and most of the money he should have gotten was taken by the government.

Look at the Soviet Union during the cold years... no theater, no concerts, no real social outlets just a blaw existence. Now look at Russia and all the old iron curtain countries their economies are bonding forward. Russia now has more billionaires than any other country.

The US during that time... movies, video games, theater basically a big PARTY, still a party :-) We are moving more to a socialist environment and it’s why we are seeing this terrible economic times. It’s only going to get worse with this new bailout plan.

Someone said something about China in a past post (sorry I can’t find it now)... but China was in financial ruin until they starting moving towards a capitalistic economy.

Governments are inefficient because there is no need to be. The money people are using is not their own and there is no incentive to do things better, faster or cheaper. The reason capitalism has a better chance at success is bc the more you take away from the government the better. When a business owner is holding their own money they spend it more wisely and only when they need to. They increase their profit and decrease their expenses... which cuts out waste.

Take some economic classes... you will see economic waste is the killer of countries.

Anyway, I am no genius and is only my simple view on a complex subject.

[moneda]

1. There is always capital, and always will be. 2. But what does that have do with the fact that free will choice is the main driver behind capitalism?

1. Bah. Due to semantics this may very well be true.

2. 'Cause it's not. People buy food 'cause they're accustomed to getting food by providing capital in exchange (most people).

[Shads]

As far as I remember, most tribes (or any other small groups of poeple) usually employ a communistic style of governing. As most tribes tend to grow and expand the com. starts to fail and has to change to something else.

Tribal != communist. The most important difference being the presence of non-elected chiefs and religious leaders.

[Manifoldgodhead]

if you want to hold to the scientific definiton of theory then there is no theory of communisum there only a hypothisis

a theory is verafiable through repeatable tests and has gaind the general acknowlagement from scientific peer publications

tru dat Karl Marx's Hypothesis of Communism. We'll have to chill and watch society for a few more centuries and see how it turns out. :cool:

[PrimalSign]

As far as I remember, most tribes (or any other small groups of poeple) usually employ a communistic style of governing. As most tribes tend to grow and expand the com. starts to fail and has to change to something else.

They do/did. It's a redistribution economy and it always results in one person building the alliances he needs to establish a greater control over the group.

Tribal != communist. The most important difference being the presence of non-elected chiefs and religious leaders.

Hilarious. You lay the blame on leaders who only rise to power thanks to the primitive communism of a pre-Chief society.

[alhazred]

Of course I dont think thats the only thing that kept it down.. but it was one of the primary factors that kept them living in the fuckng dark ages and kept the majority of their population near starvation. One could write a post a hundred pages long and still not hit all the reasons why communism is a complete failure .. except in the mind of failures.

As far as college.. I have a degree in Molecular Biology.. so i didnt take all that liberal bullshit coursework very seriously.. as I still have yet to see anyone with a good job who did.

lol why would they they are off arguing that they job at the dmv should be as well paying as yours

[StainlessSteelRat]

Wrong. Trying to give everyone their wants or needs as scarcity allows.

Scarcity won't allow it. That's the point.

Wrong. See: Diamonds.

You are thinking of short term production control. That's not what scarcity refers to when discussing economics.

All I was doing was quoting him and providing a link that made his argument (that economics is "the science and managment of scarece resourses") not accurate. No further direction going. :ninja:

There is more than 1 way to define economics, so providing a different definition doesn't really refute his point. It just shows that you received your definitions from different sources.

Al - do you know the the definition of econmics is "the science and managment of scarece resourses" for comunisum to work with freedom there needs to be unlimited resources

Me - /thread

You - He defined economics, not capitalism, and he was apparently wrong.

*(Do you see the departure already? I've bolded it for you.)*

Me - And who said anything about capitalism?

You - I did!

Me - ???????????????? etc etc

[moneda]

lol why would they they are off arguing that they job at the dmv should be as well paying as yours

lololol yea sur dey are

:rolleyes:

[Zukan]

Individual rights.

Unless you're gay...

[alhazred]

As far as I remember, most tribes (or any other small groups of poeple) usually employ a communistic style of governing. As most tribes tend to grow and expand the com. starts to fail and has to change to something else.

lol and most tribes we behind on tech and never really gone anywere and were all destroyed by capitalist scocietys that outpreformed them

[Shads]

Unless you're gay...

Or poor.

[Gaal]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

have you even read marx lol lol lol lol

about how every entity is enslaved and doomed to be replaced by its own creation can you even the basics of his Dialectical arguments

You sir, are a dipshit.

[Trykster79]

neither system is good and in its TRUE form communism is the most perfect form of government.. however due to human nature it is completely impossible to obtain true comunism (IE everyone is equal)

i actually think a new form of government somwehere between socialism, capitalism, and democracy needs to be thought up.. basically i think a controlled form of democracy starting at the bottom (individual cities) and working its way up would be the best form of government.. american democracy is so fundamentaly flawed that i cant even bring myself to vote since individual votes do not mean a thing in the current system. capitalism feeds greed which in turn pushes us more towards a 3rd world dictatorship where society is split into the haves and have nots (does it make sense that people with less money are charged MORE then someone that can actually afford the extra cash?) prime example are interest rates.. if you have less money then you pay higher interest.. regardless of credit

[Sho'nuff]

lol and most tribes we behind on tech and never really gone anywere and were all destroyed by capitalist scocietys that outpreformed them

??? I don't think we're on the same page. I am merely saying as a tribe grows, it leaves a communistic structure. As far as tech and destruction by capitalistic societies all I have to say is... say what?:confused:

[alhazred]

tru dat Karl Marx's Hypothesis of Communism. We'll have to chill and watch society for a few more centuries and see how it turns out. :cool:

now thats teh scientific method

[alhazred]

You sir, are a dipshit.

well resoned, i conceed my point



(lol)

[Jezrith]

1. Bah. Due to semantics this may very well be true.


It's not so much semantics as it is the fact that some human beings will always have more than others. If it's not more money, land, or resources, then it's will be intelligence, endurance, or even looks.


2. 'Cause it's not. People buy food 'cause they're accustomed to getting food by providing capital in exchange (most people).


It's the food they choose to buy, where they choose to buy it, who they choose to buy it from and even how they choose to buy it that drives capital around the system. It's the desires of men and the choices they make due to those desires, not just the fact that they are used to using capital to buy something.

[alhazred]

neither system is good and in its TRUE form communism is the most perfect form of government.. however due to human nature it is completely impossible to obtain true comunism (IE everyone is equal)

lol i find it funny that the twilight zone and others write about the "perfect communism" and it is always a hell of mediocrity

[StainlessSteelRat]

neither system is good and in its TRUE form communism is the most perfect form of government.. however due to human nature it is completely impossible to obtain true comunism (IE everyone is equal)

Different thread but no, communism is not the perfect form of gov't. Benevolent Dictatorship is the perfect form of gov't.

[alhazred]

??? I don't think we're on the same page. I am merely saying as a tribe grows, it leaves a communistic structure. As far as tech and destruction by capitalistic societies all I have to say is... say what?:confused:

when the point of you economic system is to hold the staus quo the best you can hope for is to stagnate and hold even

meanwhile in a capitalist society the trend is to improve and expand and thus art science and all other fields excel

[Sho'nuff]

when the point of you economic system is to hold the staus quo the best you can hope for is to stagnate and hold even

meanwhile in a capitalist society the trend is to improve and expand and thus art science and all other fields excel

Think you missed the quoting of the quotes. :p

[Manifoldgodhead]

Different thread but no, communism is not the perfect form of gov't. Benevolent Dictatorship is the perfect form of gov't.

As long as the benevolent is truly benevolent and not some medieval "chosen by god" to fuck you in the ass so just take it!

[Manifoldgodhead]

meanwhile in a capitalist society the trend is to improve and expand and thus art science and all other fields excel

You should see the movie "Idiocracy" because it only works when someone is willing to pay for it and right now the best paying science tends to be how to make your dick hard when your 80

[PrimalSign]

when the point of you economic system is to hold the staus quo the best you can hope for is to stagnate and hold even

meanwhile in a capitalist society the trend is to improve and expand and thus art science and all other fields excel

The capitalism comes waaaay after a tribe abandons communism. FYI

If anything, it was a Stratified system akin to Fascism or a Dictatorship that spurred growth beyond the tribal level.

[moneda]

when the point of you economic system is to hold the staus quo the best you can hope for is to stagnate and hold even

meanwhile in a capitalist society the trend is to improve and expand and thus art science and all other fields excel

See, now you're just puttin' up stuff to amuse me.

[DougDread]

Honestly, I will take advantage of both systems although I prefer capitalism for it's challenge to rise above the masses.

In a capitalist system I will continue to work hard AND smart to try and achieve a standard of living I enjoy along with all the freedoms to do what I want.

If for some reason communism takes the world by storm I would decide I want a stress free life since my hard work doesn't improve my quality of life. I would look for the most lax style of work (balance between physical and mental - I don't want to exert too much of either) to attain the same benefits as those who work hard. Maybe I'll be a student for life doing the minimal coursework and research required, maybe I'll get a really fun job like a camp counsellor, or maybe I'll just sweep floors. I do know I won't get anything stressful like be a doctor, waiter, high level businessman, policeman, high level government position, etc.

Of course this is assuming perfect communism where those who oversee it are not corrupt and everything is still divided equally.

[Manifoldgodhead]

Honestly, I will take advantage of both systems although I prefer capitalism for it's challenge to rise above the masses.

In a capitalist system I will continue to work hard AND smart to try and achieve a standard of living I enjoy along with all the freedoms to do what I want.

If for some reason communism takes the world by storm I would decide I want a stress free life since my hard work doesn't improve my quality of life. I would look for the most lax style of work (balance between physical and mental - I don't want to exert too much of either) to attain the same benefits as those who work hard. Maybe I'll be a student for life doing the minimal coursework and research required, maybe I'll get a really fun job like a camp counsellor, or maybe I'll just sweep floors. I do know I won't get anything stressful like be a doctor, waiter, high level businessman, policeman, high level government position, etc.

Of course this is assuming perfect communism where those who oversee it are not corrupt and everything is still divided equally.

yes but what would you do if your current government evolved into a communistic society over many generations; as well your own view point also evolved causing you to think less about your own success and more about the success of society as a whole? would you then contribute everything you could to your society in the knowledge that the harder you work to make your society successful the more you yourself would be successful in the sense that your are indeed a part of society.

[moneda]

Honestly, I will take advantage of both systems although I prefer capitalism for it's challenge to rise above the masses.

In a capitalist system I will continue to work hard AND smart to try and achieve a standard of living I enjoy along with all the freedoms to do what I want.

If for some reason communism takes the world by storm I would decide I want a stress free life since my hard work doesn't improve my quality of life. I would look for the most lax style of work (balance between physical and mental - I don't want to exert too much of either) to attain the same benefits as those who work hard. Maybe I'll be a student for life doing the minimal coursework and research required, maybe I'll get a really fun job like a camp counsellor, or maybe I'll just sweep floors. I do know I won't get anything stressful like be a doctor, waiter, high level businessman, policeman, high level government position, etc.

Of course this is assuming perfect communism where those who oversee it are not corrupt and everything is still divided equally.

You wouldn't be a doctor because you wouldn't be able to live better than other people? The fact that your education could be the best and free, by law, and you could then spend your life healing the sick wouldn't motivate you at all?

Humanity deserves capitalism.

[Gaal]

humanity deserves capitalism.

qft

[Trykster79]

Different thread but no, communism is not the perfect form of gov't. Benevolent Dictatorship is the perfect form of gov't.

how so? any dictatorship puts some people above others while the true form of communism is everyone is equal

[PrimalSign]

how so? any dictatorship puts some people above others while the true form of communism is everyone is equal

You forget that being equal can mean equally screwed.

[Erroneous]

Both work in theory, human nature allows you to get much closer to true capitalism than true communism.

[Trykster79]

You forget that being equal can mean equally screwed.

which is why i stated that perfect comunism is impossible ;)

on paper though comunism is the best form of government but as i said ONLY on paper

[Jezrith]

Humanity deserves capitalism.

I suppose the next thing you are going to tell us is that water is wet.


on paper though comunism is the best form of government but as i said ONLY on paper

No, it's still pretty shitty on paper too.

[Nexus]

I was watching a programme last night and it brought up an interesting point about similarities between communism and capitalism and it got me thinking. I know almost all of this forum with few noteable excpetions are for capitalism and strongly against communism.

My question is why? What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

Because American leaders shout non-capitalist and non-american at bills and policies they don't want passed, and as the only communists most people know about are the russians, natural hate ensued.

I think thats it anyway.

Both systems are flawed anyway, we need a resource based economy not a monetary one.

[Revolver777]

Some things are great in theory, but never work in practice.

The mere fact that you started this thread shows that you may not comprehend that very simple fact.

[omnigol]

Both work in theory, human nature allows you to get much closer to true capitalism than true communism.

If it doesn't work, but it 'worked in theory' it means your theory was wrong. People claim something 'worked in theory' after their idea *fails*. Saying it works in theory isn't a reason to try a failed idea one more time.

[Revolver777]

Humanity deserves capitalism.

As Sartre once said, "We are condemned to be free."

[Fro]

Some things are great in theory, but never work in practice.

The mere fact that you started this thread shows that you may not comprehend that very simple fact.

No, i know there are flaws in both systems.

[Cyle]

No, it's still pretty shitty on paper too.

Only to well-educated people.

Unfortunately America has this idea that the vulgar opinion is always the correct one.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Trykster79]

I suppose the next thing you are going to tell us is that water is wet.



No, it's still pretty shitty on paper too.



well i gotta say this is the most unintelligent thing ive seen... if you think its shitty even on paper please state WHY you think that... opinion without supporting fact (of ANY kind) is worthless

[Silverhandorder]

You wouldn't be a doctor because you wouldn't be able to live better than other people? The fact that your education could be the best and free, by law, and you could then spend your life healing the sick wouldn't motivate you at all?

Humanity deserves capitalism.

You sound like a poli sci student. Not everyone holds your views. To make them participate against their will is a crime. Naturaly let both systems work, which ever takes over the culture is the one that deserves to stay.

There is a reason we moved away from guilds and tribe culture. If you can't recognize that fact then you are a deluded/maybe brainwashed individual.

[Marilyn]

I don't like communism because I don't like to share.

[Cyle]

well i gotta say this is the most unintelligent thing ive seen... if you think its shitty even on paper please state WHY you think that... opinion without supporting fact (of ANY kind) is worthless

Because it doesn't make sense to pay everyone the same wage regardless of their profession.

Some people are smarter and more skilled than others, and deserve the proper income which the price of their respective product or service renders.

That, and government controlled enterprise is a fail waiting to happen. It takes away from innovation and completely destroys private property rights in place of an "idealized" society - which isn't even ideal.

Life isn't equal but dammit it's fair and should stay that way. If I work harder and better than someone else then I deserve every penny that I earn.

Oh, and prices are found by consumer demand based on the marginalism of the buyer and producer - basic economic function there.


Communism is fucking stupid and has never, and will never work. It's a system made up by a raging idiot because he was QQing about the "inequality" produced by Capitalism. The sad thing is, that Capitalism was MEANT for inequality because naturally not all men can produce the same kinds of services or products as another.

Communism is QQ, Capitalism is hardcore - consider it Economic Darwinism.

[DougDread]

yes but what would you do if your current government evolved into a communistic society over many generations; as well your own view point also evolved causing you to think less about your own success and more about the success of society as a whole? would you then contribute everything you could to your society in the knowledge that the harder you work to make your society successful the more you yourself would be successful in the sense that your are indeed a part of society.

Erm I already said what my plans are if we changed to communism and it is very arrogant to assume that my views would 'evolve'.

I don't see any reason why I need to make my life more stressful for the sake of 'society' or people who I don't know or care about. That's not to say I don't enjoy people - I like to socialize and meet new people thus expanding my circle. But I also don't like or care about masses of people I don't know. I can see if this sounds contradicting but hopefully it can be understood.

This 'evolved' thinking is merely idealistic thinking and I am not a fan of idealism after high school.

Yep if communism came through I would take advantage of a low stress job that gave me plenty of free time to mess around on the computer or do something. Those 'evolved' thinkers can make sure my stitches hold together at the hospital when I get hurt.

[Silverhandorder]

well i gotta say this is the most unintelligent thing ive seen... if you think its shitty even on paper please state WHY you think that... opinion without supporting fact (of ANY kind) is worthless

Basic premise of communism is that you give up your rights to support the collective whole. Needs =/= wants. If some one is not allowed to go for what he wants he looses his freedom to do so.

That is like saying benevolent dictator ship is good on paper. Benevolent dictator will run your life for you and look out for all. Your life will be just as good under the benevolent dictator as it is under communism. You will be taken care of and any needs you may have. Problem is you are not free, just like in communism.

[The Cougar]

well i gotta say this is the most unintelligent thing ive seen... if you think its shitty even on paper please state WHY you think that... opinion without supporting fact (of ANY kind) is worthless
It's bad on paper because it's entire premise is to rape individualism.

[Jezrith]

well i gotta say this is the most unintelligent thing ive seen...


You must not read your own posts then.

if you think its shitty even on paper please state WHY you think that... opinion without supporting fact (of ANY kind) is worthless

I have stated why many times over. Three times alone in this very thread, quite recently in this thread no less. But for the sake of argument:

Enslaving the individual to appease the whims of a mob is never good, even on paper.

[Gaal]

I like communism because loving the state leaves no room for religion.

[Cyle]

That is like saying benevolent dictator ship is good on paper. Benevolent dictator will run your life for you and look out for all. Your life will be just as good under the benevolent dictator as it is under communism. You will be taken care of and any needs you may have. Problem is you are not free, just like in communism.

Wow, you really ARE as stupid as you sound, aren't you?

Prove to me that a Communism aristocricy or a dictator knows exactly what I want and need in my life, and can make all those decisions for me, and I will take back my harsh statements about your obvious lack of intelligence.

Fact is, you can't Know why?
Because if I want a cheeseburger, or new TV, or a guitar, or porn, I can shop for them thanks to our CAPITALIST system which provides ME with those CHOICES of buying.

It's a Global economy, even China is on board with free-market reform. Get with the program retard Communism is a fucking Failboat.

[Ungraylessness]

You wouldn't be a doctor because you wouldn't be able to live better than other people? The fact that your education could be the best and free, by law, and you could then spend your life healing the sick wouldn't motivate you at all?

Humanity deserves capitalism.

You should start a T-shirt company.

[Gaal]

Wow, you really ARE as stupid as you sound, aren't you?

Prove to me that a Communism aristocricy or a dictator knows exactly what I want and need in my life, and can make all those decisions for me, and I will take back my harsh statements about your obvious lack of intelligence.

Fact is, you can't Know why?
Because if I want a cheeseburger, or new TV, or a guitar, or porn, I can shop for them thanks to our CAPITALIST system which provides ME with those CHOICES of buying.

It's a Global economy, even China is on board with free-market reform. Get with the program retard Communism is a fucking Failboat.

Ya but it would be a utopia if it worked.

[Jezrith]

I like communism because loving the state leaves no room for religion.

Or lube for that matter...

[Trykster79]

Erm I already said what my plans are if we changed to communism and it is very arrogant to assume that my views would 'evolve'.

I don't see any reason why I need to make my life more stressful for the sake of 'society' or people who I don't know or care about. That's not to say I don't enjoy people - I like to socialize and meet new people thus expanding my circle. But I also don't like or care about masses of people I don't know. I can see if this sounds contradicting but hopefully it can be understood.

This 'evolved' thinking is merely idealistic thinking and I am not a fan of idealism after high school.

Yep if communism came through I would take advantage of a low stress job that gave me plenty of free time to mess around on the computer or do something. Those 'evolved' thinkers can make sure my stitches hold together at the hospital when I get hurt.



which is why i said IN THEORY and as for "wages" in a true comunist society money would be nonexistant.... you work / you get what you need same as everyone else.. problem is human nature is "hey i wanna be better then you" so it can never work outside of theory

basically though comunism says no job is greater then any other job.. honestly is a doctor any more important then a contractor? yeah the doctor saves lives but so does the contractor when you think about it.. no house = die of exposure.. should a movie star make more then the guy that works at the sewer treatment plant? im not advocating comunism im simply stating that in theory its the best form of government to date but unfortunately could never work

[Ungraylessness]

Wow, you really ARE as stupid as you sound, aren't you?

Prove to me that a Communism aristocricy or a dictator knows exactly what I want and need in my life, and can make all those decisions for me, and I will take back my harsh statements about your obvious lack of intelligence.

Fact is, you can't Know why?
Because if I want a cheeseburger, or new TV, or a guitar, or porn, I can shop for them thanks to our CAPITALIST system which provides ME with those CHOICES of buying.

It's a Global economy, even China is on board with free-market reform. Get with the program retard Communism is a fucking Failboat.

Do you sound out the words as you read?

[Jezrith]

Wow, you really ARE as stupid as you sound, aren't you?

Prove to me that a Communism aristocricy or a dictator knows exactly what I want and need in my life, and can make all those decisions for me, and I will take back my harsh statements about your obvious lack of intelligence.

Fact is, you can't Know why?
Because if I want a cheeseburger, or new TV, or a guitar, or porn, I can shop for them thanks to our CAPITALIST system which provides ME with those CHOICES of buying.

It's a Global economy, even China is on board with free-market reform. Get with the program retard Communism is a fucking Failboat.

/facepalm

[Silverhandorder]

Wow, you really ARE as stupid as you sound, aren't you?

Prove to me that a Communism aristocricy or a dictator knows exactly what I want and need in my life, and can make all those decisions for me, and I will take back my harsh statements about your obvious lack of intelligence.

Fact is, you can't Know why?
Because if I want a cheeseburger, or new TV, or a guitar, or porn, I can shop for them thanks to our CAPITALIST system which provides ME with those CHOICES of buying.

It's a Global economy, even China is on board with free-market reform. Get with the program retard Communism is a fucking Failboat.

I want to decapitate you... I fucking despise both systems and don't think they will ever work. You really fucking need to control that knee jerk.

[The Cougar]

which is why i said IN THEORY
Heh, what system wouldn't be the best form of government IN THEORY?

[Cyle]

which is why i said IN THEORY and as for "wages" in a true comunist society money would be nonexistant.... you work / you get what you need same as everyone else.. problem is human nature is "hey i wanna be better then you" so it can never work outside of theory
Not everyone has the same needs/wants buddy.

My economics professor lived and worked for the Communist government in Yugoslavia before the civil war there when he came to America.

He tells stories about how he wanted italian shoes or a fender guitar but couldn't buy them because the government decided he didn't need them. So much for the government knowing what we want/need.

That's Communism -1


basically though comunism says no job is greater then any other job..
Doctors are more important than plumbers, sorry.

Communism -2

im not advocating comunism im simply stating that in theory its the best form of government to date but unfortunately could never work
Even Machiavelli stated that a theory that cannot go into practice is indeed a bad theory.

Communism -3


So far the argument isn't looking good for you Commies.

[Cyle]

I want to decapitate you... I fucking despise both systems and don't think they will ever work. You really fucking need to control that knee jerk.

And you need an education.

Too bad you have to work for it. Damn that sounds like a broken system to me.

Oh, wait, actually it sounds fair.

Don't try to take a piece of my pie, imbecile.

[DougDread]

which is why i said IN THEORY and as for "wages" in a true comunist society money would be nonexistant.... you work / you get what you need same as everyone else.. problem is human nature is "hey i wanna be better then you" so it can never work outside of theory

basically though comunism says no job is greater then any other job.. honestly is a doctor any more important then a contractor? yeah the doctor saves lives but so does the contractor when you think about it.. no house = die of exposure.. should a movie star make more then the guy that works at the sewer treatment plant? im not advocating comunism im simply stating that in theory its the best form of government to date but unfortunately could never work

Why argue about the theory of communism if you already conclude that it will never work. It might as well be considered a failed theory only worth mentioning from a historical perspective to point and laugh at.

If you are going to argue about communism don't be a pussy - put some FEELING and BELIEF into it like the guy who wants me to be a doctor is doing.

[Trykster79]

Heh, what system wouldn't be the best form of government IN THEORY?

umm all of them pretty much? dictatorship "you do what i say"
capitalism? "hey let me charge everyone more money so we seperate society into have and have nots"
etc etc

technically communism would have no "government" just a bunch of people working together to achieve more then the individual

[PrimalSign]

And you need an education.

Too bad you have to work for it. Damn that sounds like a broken system to me.

Oh, wait, actually it sounds fair.

Don't try to take a piece of my pie, imbecile.

Either I'm crazy, or this guy is lashing out randomly without reading posts.

[Silverhandorder]

And you need an education.

Too bad you have to work for it. Damn that sounds like a broken system to me.

Oh, wait, actually it sounds fair.

Don't try to take a piece of my pie, imbecile.

:bang::bang::bang: Ok it seems that you failed forumfall 101. Read other people's posts. I am pro capitalism. I think both communism and benevolent dictatorships do not work. I don't beleive in hybrid systems. If you lash out again I wont have any explanation for the stupidity.

[PaleOne]

Communism means equality as in everyone can exist in poverty..unless your a party leader..

[Cyle]

:bang::bang::bang: Ok it seems that you failed forumfall 101. Read other people's posts. I am pro capitalism. I think both communism and benevolent dictatorships do not work. I don't beleive in hybrid systems. If you lash out again I wont have any explanation for the stupidity.

Ug.

I prefer Commie-sympathizers because I love shutting them down, and lost track of who was which. Got ahead of myself :lmao:

-1 for me.

Communism is still fail.

[Trykster79]

Not everyone has the same needs/wants buddy.

My economics professor lived and worked for the Communist government in Yugoslavia before the civil war there when he came to America.

He tells stories about how he wanted italian shoes or a fender guitar but couldn't buy them because the government decided he didn't need them. So much for the government knowing what we want/need.

That's Communism -1


Doctors are more important than plumbers, sorry.

Communism -2


Even Machiavelli stated that a theory that cannot go into practice is indeed a bad theory.

Communism -3


So far the argument isn't looking good for you Commies.



doctors are NOT more important the plumbers.. you only say that because of the society you live in... your shitter plugs up what do you do if no one wanted to be a plumber? to be honest i use more general trade laborers then doctors / dentists etc.. i think its completely fucked that you have to be rich to stay alive in this world... would you rather have a doctor or running water? which do you use more?

[Silverhandorder]

doctors are NOT more important the plumbers.. you only say that because of the society you live in... your shitter plugs up what do you do if no one wanted to be a plumber? to be honest i use more general trade laborers then doctors / dentists etc.. i think its completely fucked that you have to be rich to stay alive in this world... would you rather have a doctor or running water? which do you use more?

Supply and demand. How many doctors exist vs plumbers? Plus I can easily fix my own pipes. Not all of us were raised like a girl.

[Cyle]

doctors are NOT more important the plumbers.. you only say that because of the society you live in...
If Doctors were not more important than plumbers, then it would only make sense for the free market to reward them such.
But considering the kind of profession a doctor is, the kind of education required, and skills involved, I would say it IS more important.
Anyone can use a fucking plunger but I'd like to see you preform open heart surgery.

Communism -4

Keep it commin.

[Trykster79]

Supply and demand. How many doctors exist vs plumbers? Plus I can easily fix my own pipes. Not all of us were raised like a girl.

really? you ever tried to pull out and replace the old plumbing in a house? its a nightmare.. and according to your argument i grew up 20 miles outside a small town and know MANY natural healing remedies... anyone that cares to learn can do it and remedy most ailments themselves.. its not supply and demand as you put it.. its pay us or die

and who the fuck is talking about plungers.. im talking about bringing you the running water you use DAILY just one instance.. wanna go back to shitting in holes in the ground like they did 300 years ago?

the reason people pay doctors so much is the fact pretty much EVERYONE is afraid of death so doctors are given free reign to charge what they want

and by your theory your saying that lawyers are more important then doctors as most attorneys make more then doctors

sorry you fail

[Ungraylessness]

doctors are NOT more important the plumbers.. you only say that because of the society you live in... your shitter plugs up what do you do if no one wanted to be a plumber? to be honest i use more general trade laborers then doctors / dentists etc.. i think its completely fucked that you have to be rich to stay alive in this world... would you rather have a doctor or running water? which do you use more?

Idiot, nobody wants to be a plumber. People are plumbers because all they have to do is clean shit up to make money. A good plumber can make something like 80 or 90k a year because nobody else feels like cleaning up shit. Less supply, but high demand.

Now imagine the plumber, who we will call Joe, gets to live in the same house as his neighbor. What motivates him to clean up shit? It would be the totalitarian fuck up that tends to go hand and hand with communism.

[Silverhandorder]

really? you ever tried to pull out and replace the old plumbing in a house? its a nightmare.. and according to your argument i grew up 20 miles outside a small town and know MANY natural healing remedies... anyone that cares to learn can do it and remedy most ailments themselves.. its not supply and demand as you put it.. its pay us or die

Lol some one pulling all your plumbing out is getting payed handsomely. On par with a doctor.

[The Cougar]

umm all of them pretty much? dictatorship "you do what i say"
capitalism? "hey let me charge everyone more money so we seperate society into have and have nots"
etc etc

technically communism would have no "government" just a bunch of people working together to achieve more then the individual
A dictator would always do the best for his citizens... in theory. Capitalism raises everyone's living standards due to a mutual self-interest concept... in theory.

Communism isn't about a community working together to achieve more than the individual, it's about the community working together to make sure the individual doesn't achieve more than the community.

[Cyle]

and according to your argument i grew up 20 miles outside a small town and know MANY natural healing remedies... anyone that cares to learn can do it and remedy most ailments themselves.. its not supply and demand as you put it.. its pay us or die

Then open up a clinic and make some money, or just be a plumber, like any other uneducated fool, and live off pennies.

[antihero-zero]

I could tell before clicking on this thread how imminantly dumb this thread would be. I couldn't get to the third post before I had to stop reading. This deserves some sort of award.

[Jezrith]

technically communism would have no "government" just a bunch of people working together to achieve more at the expense of the individual

Fixt.

[Killuminati]

The proletariats shall prevail once again! My brothers! it is time to revolt, even though we have absolutely no industrial working class, anymore. :(

[Silverhandorder]

I could tell before clicking on this thread how imminantly dumb this thread would be. I couldn't get to the third post before I had to stop reading. This deserves some sort of award.

"Individual rights."

You think this is stupid? :rolleyes:

[Ungraylessness]

I could tell before clicking on this thread how imminantly dumb this thread would be. I couldn't get to the third post before I had to stop reading. This deserves some sort of award.

I laughed

[Trykster79]

A dictator would always do the best for his citizens... in theory. Capitalism raises everyone's living standards due to a mutual self-interest concept... in theory.

Communism isn't about a community working together to achieve more than the individual, it's about the community working together to make sure the individual doesn't achieve more than the community.

yes i agree the form of comunism that exists is exactly what you say


HOWEVER that is not the true form of comunism which ive stated MULTIPLE times is impossible to achieve which is everyone working for the greater good.. the more everyone works the more EVERYONE has all it means is you have the same size tv as your neighbor... drive the same valued car etc

basically true comunism is "there is no me only we"

[Jezrith]

basically true comunism is "there is no me only we"

Which is exactly why it not only sucks in theory, but it sucks on paper as well.

[The Cougar]

yes i agree the form of comunism that exists is exactly what you say


HOWEVER that is not the true form of comunism which ive stated MULTIPLE times is impossible to achieve which is everyone working for the greater good.. the more everyone works the more EVERYONE has all it means is you have the same size tv as your neighbor... drive the same valued car etc

basically true comunism is "there is no me only we"
Forcing everyone to drive the same shitty car is EXACTLY as I described. How is that not the individual being held back by the community?

You must truly be a retard if you think this type of government is the best on paper.

[The Cougar]

Which is exactly why it not only sucks in theory, but it sucks on paper as well.
Yes, it sucks both in theory AND on paper.

[Trykster79]

Which is exactly why it not only sucks in theory, but it sucks on paper as well.



how so in a society where every profession is needed why should someone get more just because they have more money to start (can we say education? if you dont have alot of money just TRY getting a good education with VERY few exceptions) basically what your saying is "i want the right to be better then you" and "im more important then other people" whats funny is im american advocating comunism.. (well not really ive already stated it only works in theory) i dont see how you figure it doesnt work.. everyone works harder everyone gets more out of life seems like a win win except for those people that want to "keep up with the joneses" and have better things then there neighbors

[Trykster79]

Forcing everyone to drive the same shitty car is EXACTLY as I described. How is that not the individual being held back by the community?

You must truly be a retard if you think this type of government is the best on paper.

umm you dont get it do you... if you do more work everyone INCLUDING You benefits EVERYONE gets a better car.. you simply want to be able to point and laugh while saying haha i drive a better car then you... lmao you fail

[Dredgon]

I prefer capitalism over communism because capitalism can actually work. *expects douche bag hard left response*

Ya I guess because communism doesn't work is why China is so great today.

[The Cougar]

basically what your saying is "i want the right to be better then you" and "im more important then other people"
Now we're getting somewhere. Why shouldn't people be allowed to attempt to exceed other people?

umm you dont get it do you... if you do more work everyone INCLUDING You benefits EVERYONE gets a better car.. you simply want to be able to point and laugh while saying haha i drive a better car then you... lmao you fail
Or maybe it's because I don't want to pay for your car? Or because I'm required to pay for everyone else's cars when I don't even want one myself?

[The Cougar]

Ya I guess because communism doesn't work is why China is so great today.
They really stuck to their communist tradition and proved once and for all how useless capitalism is. Oh, and their human rights are being carefully preserved as well.