Politics: Communism vs capitalism [Archive] - Page 2

Jezrith

11-19-2008, 10:29 PM

how so in a society where every profession is needed why should someone get more just because they have more money to start (can we say education? if you dont have alot of money just TRY getting a good education with VERY few exceptions)

Those exceptions are no where near as rare as you believe they are. Not to mention, there are millions of people in this country who do just fine without a degree, better than fine even. Matter of fact, most of the people I know that don't have a degree, make more money than ones I know that do have a degree.

basically what your saying is "i want the right to be better then you" and "im more important then other people"

No, I'm saying I don't give a fuck what other people have or don't have, I only care about getting what I want to have.

whats funny is im american advocating comunism.. (well not really ive already stated it only works in theory) i dont see how you figure it doesnt work.. everyone works harder everyone gets more out of life seems like a win win except for those people that want to "keep up with the joneses" and have better things then there neighbors

You are a fool if you think it's about keeping up with the Joneses, it's about getting what I want out of life regardless of what other people think I should or shouldn't have. In communism, if society thinks I don't need it, then I'm not allowed to have it, my wants don't figure into it at all. The idea is completely repulsive to any self respecting free man.

Trykster79

11-19-2008, 10:31 PM

Now we're getting somewhere. Why shouldn't people be allowed to attempt to exceed other people?

Or maybe it's because I don't want to pay for your car? Or because I'm required to pay for everyone else's cars when I don't even want one myself?

excelling at something is its own reward in the form of pride... if that wasnt the case games like darkfall wouldnt exist.. however if everyone was working for the greater good instead of for there own personal goals society would progress alot faster then it does now... think where science would be today if EVERYONE WORKED TOGETHER WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT PERSONAL GAIN... true comunism in theory might have cured cancer by now.. or developed clean energy because everyone worked together... im not saying your "paying for someones car" im saying that everyone works and if you need something its given to you by society rather then things like only the rich can get organ transplants etc etc.. sorry but capitalism only works if your rich.. and if everyone is rich it doesnt work... unfortunately its based around keeping the lower class in there place

Trykster79

11-19-2008, 10:33 PM

Those exceptions are no where near as rare as you believe they are. There are millions of people in this country who do just fine without a degree. Matter of fact, most of the people I know that don't have a degree, make more money than ones I know that do have a degree.

No, I'm saying I don't give a fuck what other people have or don't have, I only care about getting what I want to have.

You are a fool if you think it's about keeping up with the Joneses, it's about getting what I want out of life regardless of what other people think I should or shouldn't have. In communism, if society thinks I don't need it, then I'm not allowed to have it, my wants don't figure into it at all. The idea is completely repulsive to any self respecting free man.

u just made my point.. your saying you dont give a fuck about anyone other then yourself.. you sir fail

and in a communist society dont you think if you need something so does someone else? so dont you think that item will be given to you eventually as the society can do it? your attitude is both selfish and immature it all boils down to you want to be able to have something other people dont have or cant have because they cant afford it

may i ask your age Jez? because you remind me of someone that hasnt experienced the world much yet... late teens early twenties im guessing? maybe younger

Arkh

11-19-2008, 10:36 PM

however if everyone was working for the greater good instead of for there own personal goals society would progress alot faster then it does now... think where science would be today if EVERYONE WORKED TOGETHER WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT PERSONAL GAIN... true comunism in theory might have cured cancer by now.. or developed clean energy because everyone worked together...
Key word in red : everyone agree that if everyone worked for the greater good it would have results. The only problem is that the results to aim for the greater good isn't the same for everyone.
Some would prioritize education, others health, others individual possibilities. There's a moment when your centralized thingy will have to make a choice. A choice which will fuck the smaller minorities.

Cyle

11-19-2008, 10:38 PM

if EVERYONE WORKED TOGETHER WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT PERSONAL GAIN...
It's human nature to attempt to better oneself, no matter the cost.

Communism -5

true comunism in theory might have cured cancer by now.. or developed clean energy because everyone worked together...
Completely wrong, Communism would find the most cost-efficient way to produce energy or medicine, and stuck with it. There is no innovation with Communism whatsoever because people aren't free to invent things

Communism -6

im not saying your "paying for someones car" im saying that everyone works and if you need something its given to you by society
You shouldn't be given something, you should have to earn it.

Communism -7

sorry but capitalism only works if your rich..

No, it only works as long as you're not lazy, stupid, or incapable.

Unfortunately for you, you must be all three. I see why you like Communism now.

Communism -8

I love winning.

Arkh

11-19-2008, 10:42 PM

so dont you think that item will be given to you eventually as the society can do it?
If there's only one item to give (yup collectivism isn't a magic fairy which spawn goods when you wish it) you or this someone else won't have it.
Is it better if the choice is made by how much you and the other value respectively this item. Or when the choice depends on some one else who don't give a fuck and have other moral values ?
"This guy is born in my town : this object is for him then. No luck for you buddy."

PrimalSign

11-19-2008, 10:42 PM

may i ask your age Jez? because you remind me of someone that hasnt experienced the world much yet... late teens early twenties im guessing? maybe younger

Maybe if you weren't retarded you could look up his profile.

Date of Birth
November 9, 1975 (33)

Nice job resorting to ad hominem attacks that just make you look stupid.

Revolver777

11-19-2008, 10:48 PM

Trykster79

11-19-2008, 10:52 PM

Maybe if you weren't retarded you could look up his profile.

Nice job resorting to ad hominem attacks that just make you look stupid.

im sorry i dont care enough to look up someones age.. (my age isnt on my profile so didnt even think about it honestly but even if i had i wouldnt have bothered)

and it wasnt an attack it was a statement of fact, to me it seems as if he hasnt experienced the world much

and to the guy that says i must be stupid and lazy i guess i need to clarify... the reason i say capitalism only works for the rich is without the poor then the rich dont have anyone to "be better then" which makes it pointless to be rich.. if its not important to you to have that new 55" flatscreen tv or new car then why would you want it? the thing with capitalism is i could shit in a bag get a few rich people to say its "elite" and just because the poor people cant afford it the rich people would buy it just to have something someone else doesnt

and by the way im neither stupid nor lazy nor uneducated

believe it or not, i dont care.. i drive a 93 mkiv supra (very rare sports car in the US) play my games on 37" sony lcd tv and own a 5 bedroom house.. i already know i will get a bunch of posts about how im full of shit but its ok.

i am done with this thread.. the stupidity level is just to high for me

guess i need to train my dealing with morons skill a bit more before i come back

and to the guy above me ive repeatedly stated THEORY jesus fucking a christ people im saying it COULD NEVER WORK IN REALITY only in theory

The Cougar

11-19-2008, 10:52 PM

excelling at something is its own reward in the form of pride... if that wasnt the case games like darkfall wouldnt exist.. however if everyone was working for the greater good instead of for there own personal goals society would progress alot faster then it does now... think where science would be today if EVERYONE WORKED TOGETHER WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT PERSONAL GAIN... true comunism in theory might have cured cancer by now.. or developed clean energy because everyone worked together... im not saying your "paying for someones car" im saying that everyone works and if you need something its given to you by society rather then things like only the rich can get organ transplants etc etc.. sorry but capitalism only works if your rich.. and if everyone is rich it doesnt work... unfortunately its based around keeping the lower class in there place
If someone needs a car and it's given to him by society, I am the one responsible for paying my share of that car. If what I "need" is less than what everyone else "needs", I'm still paying the same amount of money as someone who overconsumes grossly. But that's only "fair", right?

Though I guess this doesn't really apply because you are talking about a system where the reward system is completely removed, which I assume includes a monetary system. Removing the reward factor is removing the motivation to work hard. For example is it completely pointless to attend 8 years of higher education to become a surgeon when you could've just moped around getting everything you need for free from everyone else instead.

Without capitalism, we wouldn't have gotten everywhere. People invent things to make money of it, then the consumers try it and decide whether it's needed or not. The train wasn't invented to carry people around, it was invented to make money out of.

Cyle

11-19-2008, 10:55 PM

Communism is a broken system, no matter the argument. I can't believe its gotten this far.

My economics professor, who came from a communist country, where he was a government auditor, openly admits that the system is the most defunct, broken, and irrational economic and social system to ever, ever be introduced to mankind.

Every rational economic or political philosopher, agrees.

Communism loses.

/end thread.

Revolver777

11-19-2008, 10:57 PM

may i ask your age Jez? because you remind me of someone that hasnt experienced the world much yet... late teens early twenties im guessing? maybe younger

All of your posts regarding communism are completely oblivious and entirely idealistic. It's been said by psychologists over and over again that when a person is in their mid to late teens they begin to gain the idealistic concepts of thought without the ability to comprehend the realistic outcome of thought. Critical thinking which is developed in the early to mid 20s is required in order to gain an understanding that simple thoughts cannot remedy all of life's problems due to the realistic consequences of the idea.

I find it amusing that you cannot comprehend any of the obvious ends to all of your proposed theories, yet you feel that someone "hasnt experienced the world much yet."

Arkh

11-19-2008, 10:58 PM

im sorry i dont care enough to look up someones age.. (my age isnt on my profile so didnt even think about it honestly but even if i had i wouldnt have bothered)

and it wasnt an attack it was a statement of fact, to me it seems as if he hasnt experienced the world much

and to the guy that says i must be stupid and lazy i guess i need to clarify... the reason i say capitalism only works for the rich is without the poor then the rich dont have anyone to "be better then" which makes it pointless to be rich.. if its not important to you to have that new 55" flatscreen tv or new car then why would you want it? the thing with capitalism is i could shit in a bag get a few rich people to say its "elite" and just because the poor people cant afford it the rich people would buy it just to have something someone else doesnt

and by the way im neither stupid nor lazy nor uneducated

believe it or not, i dont care.. i drive a 93 mkiv supra (very rare sports car in the US) play my games on 37" sony lcd tv and own a 5 bedroom house.. i already know i will get a bunch of posts about how im full of shit but its ok.

i am done with this thread.. the stupidity level is just to high for me

guess i need to train my dealing with morons skill a bit more before i come back

and to the guy above me ive repeatedly stated THEORY jesus fucking a christ people im saying it COULD NEVER WORK IN REALITY only in theory
Learning how to use capital letters and period would be usefull. Then you can try commas.

Sunam

11-19-2008, 10:59 PM

Nice trolling. 18 pages in one day!

heroshade

11-19-2008, 10:59 PM

Anarchy!

Jezrith

11-19-2008, 11:00 PM

and if everyone is rich it doesnt work... unfortunately its based around keeping the lower class in there place

Wow! Penultimate fail. Apparently you haven't learned or realized the fact that capitalism is responsible for creating the largest middle class the world has ever known. It is also responsible for creating a society that has the greatest class mobility the world known as well. Capitalism based on keeping the lower class in there[sic] place? Who the fuck is teaching you this bullshit?

u just made my point.. your saying you dont give a fuck about anyone other then yourself.. you sir fail

There is nothing fail about it. It's called individualism and it wins in spades over collectivism any day. Individualists believe men should be free, collectivists believe men should be ants.

and in a communist society dont you think if you need something so does someone else?

Living a life based on only what you need, instead of what you want would be miserable.

so dont you think that item will be given to you eventually as the society can do it? your attitude is both selfish and immature it all boils down to you want to be able to have something other people dont have or cant have because they cant afford it

My attitude is based on the fact that no one is responsible for providing me with anything, just like I am not responsible with providing anyone with anything, this attitude is good and virtuous. Also, you failed yet again to get the point. I don't care if people get the stuff I have or not. They can have everything that I have and more, they just have to go out and get it, I'm not doing it for them.

may i ask your age Jez?

I'm 33. I have seen and experienced more of the world than most people twice my age.

because you remind me of someone that hasnt experienced the world much yet... late teens early twenties im guessing? maybe younger

Funny I was going to say the same thing about you. I figured you probably still live with your parents, or at the very least have some one else subsidizing your life. You definitely don't strike me as some one who is self-sufficient in the least. Not to mention, most adults have learned to use proper punctuation and grammar and at least show some semblance of trying to use them correctly.

Jezrith

11-19-2008, 11:12 PM

i am done with this thread.. the stupidity level is just to high for me

guess i need to train my dealing with morons skill a bit more before i come back

Thanks guys! You just had to go and scare off my new chew toy. He still had so much material for me to rip apart. I hadn't even gotten to the soft chewy center yet! Thanks a lot!

Killuminati

11-19-2008, 11:13 PM

creditism

Revolver777

11-19-2008, 11:13 PM

I'm in awe at your obvious lack of comprehension of humanity........
and it wasnt an attack it was a statement of fact, to me it seems as if he hasnt experienced the world much
I believe the fact would be his actual age, not your estimation of his age.

and to the guy that says i must be stupid and lazy i guess i need to clarify... the reason i say capitalism only works for the rich is without the poor then the rich dont have anyone to "be better then" which makes it pointless to be rich.. if its not important to you to have that new 55" flatscreen tv or new car then why would you want it? the thing with capitalism is i could shit in a bag get a few rich people to say its "elite" and just because the poor people cant afford it the rich people would buy it just to have something someone else doesnt Are people really that stupid?? Are you that stupid??
Seriously??? In Capitalism we buy what we want because we want it... If I want that 55" flat screen I'll get it, not because someone else has one...
Are you not capable of thinking like an individual????? If it's not important to get that item, then don't buy it... Rich people don't buy things because others can't afford it... That's absolutely ridiculous to think that. If you enjoyed to drive fast would you buy a sports car over an SUV because it was more expensive or because you like to drive fast? Do people who don't like to golf spend loads of cash on clubs because they have the cash to spend? If you had $20 and went to the store to buy a shirt and there was a red shirt you really liked for $10 and a blue one you hated for $20 would you buy the blue one because some other people might not be able to afford it? Hell no, you'd buy the red one because you liked it.... Personal preference...

And you know what the beauty of Capitalism is? If someone actually had the mentality you're saying all of humanity has, then they could buy the more expensive one because they wanted to!!!

and by the way im neither stupid nor lazy nor uneducated

believe it or not, i dont care.. i drive a 93 mkiv supra (very rare sports car in the US) play my games on 37" sony lcd tv and own a 5 bedroom house.. i already know i will get a bunch of posts about how im full of shit but its ok.

i am done with this thread.. the stupidity level is just to high for me

guess i need to train my dealing with morons skill a bit more before i come back

and to the guy above me ive repeatedly stated THEORY jesus fucking a christ people im saying it COULD NEVER WORK IN REALITY only in theory

Obviously it couldn't work in reality, but in theory it doesn't make much sense either... If you can't comprehend why, then that means you're the only moron posting here.

Trykster79

11-19-2008, 11:39 PM

i know i should do what i said and just leave this thread alone but im home now from work and just stopped by and LOL'd at the responses so i cant help myself :D

the stupidity is truly amazing on this thread.. you ever eaten caviar? nasty shit VERY few people truly like it yet the rich consume mass amounts of it cause its "hip" same with things like calamari they are things catering to the rich and the rich only utilize it because they can afford to while others cant

the main problem with capitalism is it allows people like what was i exxon? or mobile? cant remember to give there ceo a 300 MILLION dollar retirement plan... who pays for that? the consumer... you think its right that people struggle to put food on there table paycheck to paycheck? well thats what capitalism is.. i make 50k a year.. im not rich but well into the middle middle class and i struggle (partly my own fault i know because of the things i buy like the supra etc) however i know many people with families to feed that need to get food boxes and food stamps just to feed there kids... all so we can line the pockets of greedy corporate "moguls" is it right i have to pay 4 - 5 $ fro a gallon of milk? did they suddenly have to start feeding the cow gold? no its all greed.... capitalism = fail

comunism would work EXCEPT FOR HUMAN NATURE

human nature woulnever allow the concept to work...

if you wan tmy true opinin i think a mix of democracy and socialism would be the best just not the democracy we have here in america where your vote means jack shit and corporations can take advantage of the freedoms offered

im ready for the flames for coming back on this thread... :)

sorry about my typing dont ever buy a gear head brand wireless keyboard the keys stick like a mofo =(

edit* i would like to let you guys know alot of my views on comunism came from my GOVERNMENT teacher in high school so i guess a guy that went to school and studied government systems isnt as smart as some forum jocky's

Ikinoki

11-19-2008, 11:59 PM

actually, i can say that communism doesn't work EVEN IN THEORY.
who will clean the toilets in your communist society?

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 12:11 AM

Jezrith

11-20-2008, 12:22 AM

the stupidity is truly amazing on this thread.. you ever eaten caviar? nasty shit VERY few people truly like it yet the rich consume mass amounts of it cause its "hip" same with things like calamari they are things catering to the rich and the rich only utilize it because they can afford to while others cant

This proves that trendiness is alive and well, it proves nothing about the validity of economic systems. And for your information, calamari is fucking awesome.

the main problem with capitalism is it allows people like what was i exxon? or mobile? cant remember to give there ceo a 300 MILLION dollar retirement plan... who pays for that? the consumer...

Quick, cover yourself; your class envy is showing.

you think its right that people struggle to put food on there table paycheck to paycheck?

More importantly, is it my responsibility to make sure they don't?

well thats what capitalism is.. i make 50k a year.. im not rich but well into the middle middle class and i struggle (partly my own fault i know because of the things i buy like the supra etc) however i know many people with families to feed that need to get food boxes and food stamps just to feed there kids...

Did I force them to have kids they couldn't pay for? How are their kid's my responsibility?

all so we can line the pockets of greedy corporate "moguls"

Capitalism lines my pockets nicely, last I checked I wasn't a corporate mogul.

is it right i have to pay 4 - 5 $ fro a gallon of milk? did they suddenly have to start feeding the cow gold? no its all greed.... capitalism = fail

If the price is what the market will bear, yes it is.

edit* i would like to let you guys know alot of my views on comunism came from my GOVERNMENT teacher in high school

Well that does explain a lot. When they start actually teaching things in high school instead of pumping state propaganda down the throats of impressionable kids, then I'll give more weight to what people learn in high school.

so i guess a guy that went to school and studied government systems

Just because he taught high school government, doesn't mean he was a poli-sci major, it just means he got a teaching certificate.

isnt as smart as some forum jocky's

Considering the high school teachers I know, this statement might be more correct then you want to believe.

i support individual capitalistic anarchy, don't remember actual name, think the name is libertarianism with minarchism.
anyone else?

Anarcho-capitalism ... welcome to the fold, brother.

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 12:24 AM

"basically people who think that communism is an answer are serious losers or angry at their insignificance in this world and dumb.

and the ones who blame capitalism are simply blind and lazy or both.

and those are to blame for the problems we have today - rising poverties and taxes, and corruption with bureaucracy.

i support individual capitalistic anarchy, don't remember actual name, think the name is libertarianism with minarchism.
anyone else?

just think its funny your saying a high school government teacher is "blind" and "stupid"

im sorry capitalism breeds greed... if all you care about is lining your own pocket and dont give a shit about anyone else other then yourself then great the system we have now works for you... id rather see good people be rewarded for hard work instead of greedy fucks who ripoff society and step on everyone on there way to personal success... is the christian attitude of help thy neighbor so dead these days? and as for who would clean toilets well i would if it paid the same as every orther job.. VERY few people actually LIKE there job which is why its called work and not play

Quote:
"edit* i would like to let you guys know alot of my views on comunism came from my GOVERNMENT teacher in high school

Well that does explain a lot. When they start actually teaching things in high school instead of pumping state propaganda down the throats of impressionable kids, then I'll give more weight to what people learn in high school."

well considering im american its not really "pushing state propaganda" is it?

Jezrith

11-20-2008, 12:30 AM

well considering im american its not really "pushing state propaganda" is it?

Yes it is. The schools systems in America are notoriously well known for pushing statist/collectivist drivel.

Tharkon Fargor

11-20-2008, 12:39 AM

Communism -> Fro <- Capitalism = Win

LETS DO IT BOYZ!

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:06 AM

"

just think its funny your saying a high school government teacher is "blind" and "stupid"

im sorry capitalism breeds greed... if all you care about is lining your own pocket and dont give a shit about anyone else other then yourself then great the system we have now works for you... id rather see good people be rewarded for hard work instead of greedy fucks who ripoff society and step on everyone on there way to personal success... is the christian attitude of help thy neighbor so dead these days? and as for who would clean toilets well i would if it paid the same as every orther job.. VERY few people actually LIKE there job which is why its called work and not play

Quote:
"edit* i would like to let you guys know alot of my views on comunism came from my GOVERNMENT teacher in high school

Well that does explain a lot. When they start actually teaching things in high school instead of pumping state propaganda down the throats of impressionable kids, then I'll give more weight to what people learn in high school."

well considering im american its not really "pushing state propaganda" is it?

"Oh my god, don't look in his eyes - he is a high school government teacher!"
actually if you don't think "classy" and don't like greedy capitalist elite pigs why the heck you want me to like some loser?

capitalism doesn't breed anything, you don't look into the point, that's a problem of young mind, you've asked others on this forum, now it's your turn how old are you? i'm soon 21.
it's the people to blame, and actually the ones who say someone is greedy. they are typically bloody envious persons.
who are you to split people into good and bad? wtf is wrong with you, i would never call someone bad until he fucks up my life, or you really think those guys fuck up your life?

and here we are near the problem of communism
you can't, sorry wanna caps this for dumb people: YOU CANNOT EQUALIZE CLEANING TOILETS TO CREATING A NEW POWER SOURCE. hope you got it now. that means if you want to get the same shit the guy created a power source, please clean a zillion of toilets ;)

the problem is really very few people like their job and DON'T DO A SHIT ABOUT CHANGING THEIR LIFE, all they do is just whine and whine.
I'm not telling I'm perfect, but I've got my own business - family business, and I see opportunities, and it's MY choice to spend time with gf instead of overworking in my shop and doing advanced marketing and pr. So I can't blame anyone but me in this situation, right?

SPENZOR

11-20-2008, 01:07 AM

Communism wins

StManTiS

11-20-2008, 01:11 AM

i myself am pro-communism after coming from Russia to America
after seeing what people do with Freedom...it becomes aparant that these people have fallen from the path

Shrang

11-20-2008, 01:14 AM

Easy answer to thread.... communism does not work in the pure form... it is just against human nature.

StManTiS

11-20-2008, 01:17 AM

Easy answer to thread.... communism does not work in the pure form... it is just against human nature.

by defining human nature you're wrong

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:21 AM

i myself am pro-communism after coming from Russia to America
after seeing what people do with Freedom...it becomes aparant that these people have fallen from the path

after seeing what communism has done to Russia i would never be pro-communistic, that would be just disrespectful to the people who died in gulags during that regime, and from the tirany of the proletarian retards.

actually Stalin killed more people than Hitler.
Fascism and Nazism are prohibited, but Communism is still allowed, so I think America's Government doesn't seem to estimate (or they just really want it) the communism consequences.

Spart

11-20-2008, 01:22 AM

basically people who think that communism is an answer are serious losers or angry at their insignificance in this world and dumb.

and the ones who blame capitalism are simply blind and lazy or both.

and those are to blame for the problems we have today - rising poverties and taxes, and corruption with bureaucracy.

i support individual capitalistic anarchy, don't remember actual name, think the name is libertarianism with minarchism.
anyone else?

Yea, when people try to debate communism, I very rarely get involved, simply because I'm still sure that there must be something I'm missing. Is communism truly where everyone gets the same money/items or whatever? No matter what they do? I can't understand how anyone would ever think that could possibly work.

Of course people are going to blame capitalism for their problems though. Capitalism is all about individuals, so you can easily place blame under this system. You can't really blame people under communism, as it's all about the group effort, so you would be blaming yourself for the troubles, which most people are just too stupid to be able to do.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:26 AM

by defining human nature you're wrong

communism doesn't work anywhere in the nature, that means it's just a theory which should be sent on the humanity's errata list with the following correction provided: 'Humans enjoy their maximum level of Darwinian fitness only when they look after themselves and their families, while finding innovative ways to use the societies they live in FOR THEIR OWN BENIFITS'

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 01:28 AM

"Oh my god, don't look in his eyes - he is a high school government teacher!"
actually if you don't think "classy" and don't like greedy capitalist elite pigs why the heck you want me to like some loser?

capitalism doesn't breed anything, you don't look into the point, that's a problem of young mind, you've asked others on this forum, now it's your turn how old are you? i'm soon 21.
it's the people to blame, and actually the ones who say someone is greedy. they are typically bloody envious persons.
who are you to split people into good and bad? wtf is wrong with you, i would never call someone bad until he fucks up my life, or you really think those guys fuck up your life?

and here we are near the problem of communism
you can't, sorry wanna caps this for dumb people: YOU CANNOT EQUALIZE CLEANING TOILETS TO CREATING A NEW POWER SOURCE. hope you got it now. that means if you want to get the same shit the guy created a power source, please clean a zillion of toilets ;)

the problem is really very few people like their job and DON'T DO A SHIT ABOUT CHANGING THEIR LIFE, all they do is just whine and whine.
I'm not telling I'm perfect, but I've got my own business - family business, and I see opportunities, and it's MY choice to spend time with gf instead of overworking in my shop and doing advanced marketing and pr. So I can't blame anyone but me in this situation, right?

as i said im not jealous or envious.. im a child of capitalism.. i drive a sports car, ride a nice dirt bike, and play my games on a big screen lcd tv... and to be honest the scientists dont get paid what say a lawyer is paid in our society... by your statement should the lawyer need to try 10000 cases to = the scientist? yet our society rewards sue happy greedy people over someone trying to cure cancer

*edit and ive stated a couple times on this thread im 30

Sbrafk

11-20-2008, 01:30 AM

Can someone define a communist utopia? Or their version of one. I'm curious on how theory translates into reality.

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 01:34 AM

communism doesn't work anywhere in the nature, that means it's just a theory which should be sent on the humanity's errata list with the following correction provided: 'Humans enjoy their maximum level of Darwinian fitness only when they look after themselves and their families, while finding innovative ways to use the societies they live in FOR THEIR OWN BENIFITS'

how the hell can your other response be so immature yet this response is well thought out and quite nicely put... i keep saying it in a purely theoretical or hypothetical situation socialism in its "pure" form would be the best form of government HOWEVER ive also stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE because human nature dictates that i want something better then my neighbor... when most people (not all but most) buy a big screen tv, they will take a 55" over a 52" if all there neighbors have 52" its just humane nature to be competitive...

best quote ever... "life is a game.. the person with the most toys when they die wins!!" i think that about sums up how humans are quite nicely

and sabrak true comunism is everyone in a society working for the common betterment of everyone when you work harder you benefit but your society and everyone in it would benefit at the same rate thereby eliminating things such as poverty etc there would be no division between rich and poor.. and imo (and this is just opinion) it would make a society develope faster as everyone would be working towards the same end goals each doing there own part a good example.. how many people do you think ENJOY being investment bankers? the reason so many people do it is cold hard cash and they do it for there own benefit not anyone elses

Gloomrender

11-20-2008, 01:34 AM

by defining human nature you're wrong

So humans don't have any nature? Everything human is magically randomized? :rolleyes:

Who are you kidding? We have thousands of years of history and science that proves that you and your communist ideas are wrong.

Communism is beyond wrong, It's impossible. The very nature of ANY society, and of ANY kind of money, make it impossible. It's not just impossible because of human nature, It's LOGISTICALLY impossible; to have everything be distributed evenly among everyone, and controlled by everyone. This is physically impossible.

Communism is by It's nature, via trying to be a form of government, impossible. 'Communist Government' is an oxymoron. And that's why every country who's ever attempted it has failed at it, and that's why every society who ever attempts it in the future will fail at it. Cry about capitalism as much as you want, but capitalism's being flawed doesn't make communism any better or more feasible.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:35 AM

as i said im not jealous or envious.. im a child of capitalism.. i drive a sports car, ride a nice dirt bike, and play my games on a big screen lcd tv... and to be honest the scientists dont get paid what say a lawyer is paid in our society... by your statement should the lawyer need to try 10000 cases to = the scientist? yet our society rewards sue happy greedy people over someone trying to cure cancer

well that's a case of good oldie capitalism working here ;) and the same case will work in communism just only the other way ;). the problem is there is less need for a total cure of cancer than for a decent lawyer. and who's to blame? YOU the old good HUMAN buddy who really doesn't give a shit about the problems of others! ).

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:38 AM

how the hell can your other response be so immature yet this response is well thought out and quite nicely put... i keep saying it in a purely theoretical or hypothetical situation socialism in its "pure" form would be the best form of government HOWEVER ive also stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE because human nature dictates that i want something better then my neighbor... when most people (not all but most) buy a big screen tv, they will take a 55" over a 52" if all there neighbors have 52" its just humane nature to be competitive...

best quote ever... "life is a game.. the person with the most toys when they die wins!!" i think that about sums up how humans are quite nicely
your parents had some problems with your education as I see. I would buy 55" just to watch a bigger picture and get a brighter immersion.

theoretically communism would work with robots, though that's a long subject for nonsense philosophical discussion.

Sbrafk

11-20-2008, 01:39 AM

well that's a case of good oldie capitalism working here ;) and the same case will work in communism just only the other way ;). the problem is there is less need for a total cure of cancer than for a decent lawyer. and who's to blame? YOU the old good HUMAN buddy who really doesn't give a shit about the problems of others! ).

Do you care about my problems?

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:41 AM

Sbrafk
really... no ;) sorry. we only care about the cure for cancer because of our own fears.

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 01:43 AM

your parents had some problems with your education as I see. I would buy 55" just to watch a bigger picture and get a brighter immersion.

theoretically communism would work with robots, though that's a long subject for nonsense philosophical discussion.

im sorry but when you get that size tv you dont notice much difference in 3 inches... trust me i have a 52 in my living room... and by the way i NEVER said comunism would work just that THEORETICALLY its the most pure form of government... i never once advocated comunism OR said it would work with humans

o and dont bring my parents into this if anything blame our public school system that capitalism created

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:50 AM

ok let's set it straight then, the most pure form of government is no government at all for a free human.

Sbrafk

11-20-2008, 01:50 AM

There's my answer then. And there lies the problem with collectivism. It doesn't give a shit about its individual components. My own fears are paying for my student loans, paying my bills, not failing my college courses.

Collective fears of war, disease, famine are for practical reasons irrelevant to me until they become an immediate reality. But if the collective had overarching authority over an individual's existence, like mine, yes these fears would most likely be addressed immediately, but in complete disregard of whatever harm it may inflict on its individual components. I sincerely hope you're smart enough tp not buy into that 'for the greater good' and the ends justifies the means bullshit.

ok let's set it straight then, the most pure form of government is no government at all for a free human.

Nvm, you're an idiot.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:53 AM

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 01:53 AM

one thing someone just brought to my attention is a somewhat true form of comunism actually DOES exist... and that would be the shakers (which are a religeous society) if a house needs built everyone helps.. they have no individual money etc.. and id have to say many of them are quite happy or else that society wouldnt still exist (or sub society i should say)

one thing people need to remember is the views they have now are because of how they were raised... if you were raised different you would have a different view...

i still say that its the best theoretical... and please note i ALWAYS say theoretical form of government it just doesnt work in our society because human nature tends to be cometitive... to deny this is just silly

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 01:54 AM

well if you are an enthusiast you will notice the three inches difference. i actually noticed it on my monitor when bumped 17" to 21", totalling 4 inches of pure difference. while 17" was bought for the price of 3 21"'s nowadays, why the heck would i blame capitalism man?

17 - 21 is different on small screen sizes you do notice.. however 52 - 55 you wont notice the difference unless you set the 2 next to each other for comparison

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 01:59 AM

one thing someone just brought to my attention is a somewhat true form of comunism actually DOES exist... and that would be the shakers (which are a religeous society) if a house needs built everyone helps.. they have no individual money etc.. and id have to say many of them are quite happy or else that society wouldnt still exist (or sub society i should say)

this society is bubble in one big capitalistic ocean right?
actually a family (a normal one) is a communistic entity, but only in good (normal) conditions. but that is not communism on a greater scale e.g. government.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 02:01 AM

sorry Sbrafk it's a pity you are not prepared to live without government.

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 02:03 AM

this society is bubble in one big capitalistic ocean right?
actually a family (a normal one) is a communistic entity, but only in good (normal) conditions. but that is not communism on a greater scale e.g. government.

thats actually a very good point about families

and yes it seems shakers are a bubble in a sea of capitalism that was very nicely put.. my point is it WORKS for them so it seems that it might not even be quite so theoretical...

just to be clear i would personally never want to live in a comunist society.. im competitive and like having my "things" ill admit i get a kick out of the attention my car brings etc.. im simply arguing the point of comunism in its pure form as opposed to capitalism which i feel is THE most corrupt form of government to date

Incanam

11-20-2008, 02:09 AM

I'm sure communism can work and that's why we have so many true communist countries all over the world. :rolleyes:

I'm not a communist by any means, but most of the attempts have failed because capitalist countries have not allowed them to succeed. IE how America attacked the Red army in Russia after/during WWI or how America put an embargo on Cuba, or how America replaced democratically elected socialist leaders with fascist dictators.

Not that they would have worked anyway, I'm just saying that argument isn't the strongest.

Devant

11-20-2008, 02:15 AM

It's quite simple and plain. Comunism fails because it goes against human nature. Most comunists claim that they will "reform human nature", which in my terms, it is translated as brainwashing. Thanks, but no thanks. Don't get me wrong, capitalism is not heaven on earth, but at least you get to think and talk about whatever the fuck you want without having a dozen trenchcoated men taking you in for "ideological proccessing".

Trykster79

11-20-2008, 02:23 AM

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 02:26 AM

thats actually a very good point about families

and yes it seems shakers are a bubble in a sea of capitalism that was very nicely put.. my point is it WORKS for them so it seems that it might not even be quite so theoretical...

It works whilst there's no stress or problems.

just to be clear i would personally never want to live in a comunist society.. im competitive and like having my "things" ill admit i get a kick out of the attention my car brings etc.. im simply arguing the point of comunism in its pure form as opposed to capitalism which i feel is THE most corrupt form of government to datecapitalism is not the most corrupt, it's the best for humans for now, and I think no acceptable alternative can be brought to the dispute for a long time or even forever.

once women were things, before the emancipation, in revolting Russia of 1917, and they were put into the barracks and split among man, as communism proposed "to take and to split".

it's not for the human beings, even not for the insects, just because we are different. but i got your point about pure forms. i've told my opinion about that a little bit earlier.
btw: thx for the english practice, haven't spoken it for a long time.

Devant

11-20-2008, 02:26 AM

nicely put but i do have to mention this one simple fact... just growing up you are brainwashed.. how you are taught is right is right in your eyes

Sadly, I cannot totaly disagree. There are ways to avoid the majority of brainwashing. Learn critical thinking, disown the majority of common values, avoid passive media (TV, radio) and always analyze to the core whatever you learn. Living like that, can be difficult, but at least you can retain part of the pleasure that you are free.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 02:34 AM

every government as an entity is the same, they lie, they brainwash, they try to get all the money for nothing, they try to steal yours. damn it, don't you know they are basically bandits just a bit smarter than the others? they take money from you for a reason of protection. sometime earlier that point worked, but today they create false threats mostly and mostly can't handle real threats.
but you cannot eliminate government up until you are totally free from the threats of the outer world, unfortunately that won't happen for a long time, or until we have ubercontrol of the physical world - e.g. nano-robots, and if people won't react on today problems with the governments, they will end up in their homes which will become slave pens.

that is why my choice is anarchic-capitalism. at first disable any privileges the state workers have, lower the amount of state workers by using newer technology. next forbid any payments for the most of state workers making it voluntary. next for all of the state workers. finally assemble obligatory direct payments per month for the former government military protection service and some other socially valuable services provided by the former government. tada almost a perfect world where you pay for what you really need.

Attau

11-20-2008, 02:46 AM

Capitalism is good. (Note: sig.)

I do think those who succeed in a purely capitalistic system have more responsibility to the preservation of the society they live in, as they are the main benefactors - but I suppose that's an entirely different discussion. (flat taxes on entertainment purchases would be a nice touch?)

There is no perfect social contract - as there is no assured/certain definition of consciousness. Psychology is a bitch :sly:.

robtb

11-20-2008, 02:46 AM

I'm not a communist by any means, but most of the attempts have failed because capitalist countries have not allowed them to succeed. IE how America attacked the Red army in Russia after/during WWI or how America put an embargo on Cuba, or how America replaced democratically elected socialist leaders with fascist dictators.

Not that they would have worked anyway, I'm just saying that argument isn't the strongest.

I'd add to that, that theres been no country thats implemented communism from the position of which it was initially conceived for. Marx was a german who saw the way the industrial world was going, the only countries that have truly implemented communism with any effect have been a bunch of farmers and a resort island. Tongue-in-cheek aside, it really has never been tried by any industrialised country and especially in this day and age with the kind of communications technology, statistical maths and robotics-driven-manufacturing theres no valid cases on our planet to compare the technological and intellectual resources a communist initiative could work with now.

The only way to observe the potential communism holds is in studying dictatorships such as that of Singapore. Equal wealth was not a concern, but the kind of progress that city made when it was abandoned by Malaysia in a few short years under a benevolent dictator only shows that in our day and age we've yet to harness the true power we have as citizens wielding technology our ancestors couldn't dream of.

Communism will never happen though because were too divided at this point to see a revolution like that of Russia, and the fact of the matter is, humanity is enacting some kind of psychological process that involves competing over the most insignificant rewards. If people didn't feel rewarded by what other's thought of them for the goods they can buy, consumerism on the level we experience it would've never started back in the early 1900's (In the 1910's/20's, aside from psychotherapy, the next most prominent job for a psychoanalyst was marketing and his job was to figure how to get people to want to buy new goods at all since the average consumer didn't want to buy anything till it was broken). I like to believe generations from now humanity on the whole will lose its purpose from consumerism and begin to seek highs that were left behind at the beginning of the enlightenment age, but in new progressive ways.

Methos43

11-20-2008, 03:45 AM

Because the choice you offer is between freedom and slavery.

if you think money is the root of all evil, read this and get a new understanding

http://www.turtletrader.com/atlas_shrugged.html

good read.

Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause

I've found my new favorite quote.

Methos43

11-20-2008, 03:48 AM

losinglife

11-20-2008, 01:00 PM

You should see the movie "Idiocracy" because it only works when someone is willing to pay for it and right now the best paying science tends to be how to make your dick hard when your 80

lolz that movie had nothing to do with economy types.

Arkh

11-20-2008, 01:07 PM

/!\ Godwin point incoming /!\
For those speaking about socialism, check out what national socialism is.

Socialism is a form of collectivism. Collectivism only result is totalitarianism.
If you don't value your freedom, be my guest and give it : just go live in Cuba.
Or more simply France or the UK.
But don't force your views on others who value their freedom not as a mean but a goal. Yup, being free is'nt free : you have to take responsability for your acts.

Master Isaac

11-20-2008, 01:08 PM

losinglife

11-20-2008, 01:41 PM

Plus I can easily fix my own pipes. Not all of us were raised like a girl.

hahhahahahah ZING!

Bow Locks

11-20-2008, 02:25 PM

Well capitalism is intended to describe a specific form of economy.

Communism discribes a specific political system.

To compare both in a "mutual exclusive" way isn't possible from a logical perspective, and indeed both can exist within the same country, China for example.

So long

Isaac

Best post in this thread so far ^^^

My opinion and life under communism untill 1991, when my country become independant from CCCP, thats when shit hits the fan and life is absolute crap.

Media - yes you read what they wanted you to read but nobody cared, everyone was happy, life was good.

Employment - unemployment was very low, high paid indsutrial jobs, very good pensions, when i was 5 years old was asked who i wanted to be when i grow up, i said "truck driver" - these people where earning alot.

Education - from kinder garden to University, everything was paid by goverment, including uniforms, books, pens, lunches, days out, all you had to do is turn up for school.

Healthcare - everything paid by goverment.

I could go on all day here tbh, but all i can say is, i would go back to communism any time, just give it to me.

Now i am in UK, land of f***ing freedom eh? Everyday crap is printed in newspapers, one paper says one thing the other says opposite.
By the looks of it, you better of claiming benefits than working in this country.
Healthcare? omfg dont even mention it...
Education - stinking rich faggots will get good education, what about children from middle/lower class families? F**k 'em they cant afford £12k a year fee!

On every corner, No Parking, No Swiming, No Ball Games, No Music, No Smoking, No Entry, No Fishing, No Drinking etc, you cant do this or that and you call it a freedom? haha, boy you dont know what good life is.

And just before someone will tell me to f**k off back to my own country, if things are that bad here - Dont worry, i will, when ill have enough of your money to take home, i will f**k off back home :)

Lethn

11-20-2008, 02:33 PM

Good post Bow Locks, it sums up my feelings about the UK as it is now exactly, this isn't communism at all, in fact, the supposed communist countries like China and Russia have it better off than any of us in europe or the U.S put together and middle class families are actually rising in number, RISING.

As far as I'm concerned we are all living under nothing more than a government dictatorship in the guise of a Democracy, until I see more than two parties competing for the government and see people being able to democratically vote on issues that matter to them I spit on our fake democracy.

I'd take communism over our fake capitalism/democracy any day at least the country wouldn't be fucked up.

pyrow

11-20-2008, 02:38 PM

USA is communist btw

I saw a 3rd greater interrogated, all his civil rights taken away in the process, no lawyer, not even another adult present. They blamed the kid for murdering 2 people I think.

Saw another guy get thrown in jail for 30 years for 'murdering his parents' and just recently got released because they finally realized it was a false confession just to get out of their interrogation.

That's what they do when you get arrested. They usually violate your rights in the process of arresting and sentencing you. Police dont care about the truth, they just want to close cases.

monkeyofsquirrel

11-20-2008, 03:09 PM

I'm not sure how those things make us communist. However, it is important to note that our system of aid to companies, and I don't just mean bail outs now -- but subsidies, is not capitalism it is more of State-Capitalism. Which, incidentally, is exactly what the old Soviet Union had, a command economy. I prefer a socialist economy to one that is capitalist and prefer Socialist Libertarian society to our oligarchical republic, and most other institutions.

Fro

11-20-2008, 03:38 PM

Dhig

11-20-2008, 03:47 PM

Oh another capitalism vs communism thread.
This might be news for you but every country in the world use capitalism more or less.
And every country in the world use socialism more or less.

PaleOne

11-20-2008, 03:57 PM

Communisim fails for several reasons.

The first is "The tragedy of the commons" It is human nature to want to recieve the maximum pleasure for the least amount of pain or effort. For example If all of us attempt to share a pizza and pay an equal share of the price, it is in our best personal interest to try an eat more pizza than the others in our group as our total cost per slice would go down. Every publically owned asset is abused in this way.

This also means that people will attempt to lower their contribution while maximizing their benefits. So why should you put forth more effort in order to receive the same paycheck as everyone else? Why get a higher education when you recieve the same pay as a common worker?

And if fruits of everyone's labor are not split equally as per communist dogma, then who gets to make the decision about who gets what? Who will insure that there are precisely the correct numbers of doctors/farmers/mechanics and construction workers? Who will decide where you live? what you eat? What clothes you where? Which beverage to manufacture and how much?

Communism as a system failed because central planers cannot possibly make all these decision with the same effectiveness as a market system.

I don't even understand how any of you can argue for communism after reading the histories of what has happened in China. Read "The Elephant and the Dragon" to learn about the mass starvation that happened under communism, compared to the growing wealth of the chinese who have now embraced a market economy.

Read "We the living" by Ayn Rand for a little more perspective of what living under communism was really like.She escaped and lived to write books about it.

Dhig

11-20-2008, 04:23 PM

Communisim fails for several reasons.

The first is "The tragedy of the commons" It is human nature to want to recieve the maximum pleasure for the least amount of pain or effort. For example If all of us attempt to share a pizza and pay an equal share of the price, it is in our best personal interest to try an eat more pizza than the others in our group as our total cost per slice would go down. Every publically owned asset is abused in this way.

This also means that people will attempt to lower their contribution while maximizing their benefits. So why should you put forth more effort in order to receive the same paycheck as everyone else? Why get a higher education when you recieve the same pay as a common worker?

And if fruits of everyone's labor are not split equally as per communist dogma, then who gets to make the decision about who gets what? Who will insure that there are precisely the correct numbers of doctors/farmers/mechanics and comstruction workers? Who will decide where you live? what you eat? What clothes you where? Which beverage to manufacture and how much?

Communism as a system failed because central planers cannot possibly make all these decision with the some effectiveness as a market system.

I don't even understand how any of you can argue for communism after reading the histories of what has happened in China. Read "The Elephant and the Dragon" to learn about the mass starvation that happened under communism, compared to the growing wealth of the chinese who have now embraced a market economy.

Read "We the living" by Ayn Rand for a little more perspective of what living under communism was really like.She escaped and lived to write books about it.

Here you go again and think communism is a reality and have existed.
Communism have never existed as Marx and Engels thought of it.
Todays "communism" are a contradiction to the ideology Marx and Engels came up with.
If you read up on it you perhaps understand that they were also economists and believed in capitalism.
Modern capitalism pretty much follows the ideas of Marx and Engels.

Capitalism for the economy and more or less communism values for the society.
That is how it works.

China has never been communism according to the ideology. So to blame communism ideology is stupid.

PaleOne

11-20-2008, 04:37 PM

Here you go again and think communism is a reality and have existed.
Communism have never existed as Marx and Engels thought of it.
Todays "communism" are a contradiction to the ideology Marx and Engels came up with.
If you read up on it you perhaps understand that they were also economists and believed in capitalism.
Modern capitalism pretty much follows the ideas of Marx and Engels.

Capitalism for the economy and more or less communism values for the society.
That is how it works.

China has never been communism according to the ideology. So to blame communism ideology is stupid.

Today's capitalism is also not capitalism! :)

Dhig

11-20-2008, 04:47 PM

Today's capitalism is also not capitalism! :)

That is true. If it was we would only be valued after what we produce.
And that means the workers would be the wealthy and not the other way around :)

Arkh

11-20-2008, 04:51 PM

Socialist Libertarian
WTF ? After sucking all meaning from the word liberal, socialists are doing the same thing for libertarian ?
Then, I'm a Freedomarian.

Bow Locks

11-20-2008, 05:22 PM

Read "We the living" by Ayn Rand for a little more perspective of what living under communism was really like.She escaped and lived to write books about it.

I dont need to read it, i lived there, my parents lived there, my grandparents lived there and all of them will tell you how life was much better than now.

I dont want to escape, i want back in!

I know nothing about life in China under communism, but to appreceate what was life like when my country was part of CCCP, you had to live there. I am sorry you can read all the books you want, but you will never understand.

Killuminati

11-20-2008, 05:29 PM

wowsa0

11-20-2008, 05:30 PM

That is true. If it was we would only be valued after what we produce.
And that means the workers would be the wealthy and not the other way around :)

No. Capitalism is driven by supply and demand so because workers are in large supply their wages will be lower, we are in a capitalist society.

Jezrith

11-20-2008, 05:40 PM

I dont need to read it, i lived there, my parents lived there, my grandparents lived there and all of them will tell you how life was much better than now.

Yuri Bezmenov had a completely different take on the Soviet Union, and considering he was on the inside of what was really going on, I'm inclined to take his word for it rather than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE38dLxapVo

Cyle

11-20-2008, 05:41 PM

If you read up on it you perhaps understand that they were also economists and believed in capitalism.
Modern capitalism pretty much follows the ideas of Marx and Engels.

Are you serious? Because You are absolutely wrong.

Marx's Communist Manifesto was a direct challenge and opposition to Capitalism. It was a complete critique of the system, calling for government control of industry and enterprise, stripping away any and all private property rights.

I cannot fathom where you got the idea that Marx actually believed in Capitalism when it is obviously the complete opposite.

Seriously, the lack of obvious understanding and education regarding this topic is astounding and disturbing.

Also, I agree that we are actually discussing the difference between economic systems: Capitalism and Socialism.

PaleOne

11-20-2008, 05:47 PM

I dont need to read it, i lived there, my parents lived there, my grandparents lived there and all of them will tell you how life was much better than now.

I dont want to escape, i want back in!

I know nothing about life in China under communism, but to appreceate what was life like when my country was part of CCCP, you had to live there. I am sorry you can read all the books you want, but you will never understand.

This only means that his family had to work less and recieved more. Thus his family was looting the rest of the population.

the only way you agree with socialism is if you are recieveing a perceived personal benefit.

Read "We the living" from Ayn Rand for a real understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_Living

Stax

11-20-2008, 05:55 PM

Communism can work aswell but currently both systems are broken.

Capitalism has proven to work. In America, we have slowly adobted socialism over the decades, and that is why our capitalism has started to appear broke.

Communism has never worked in all of human history. From the point it starts, it begins a death march to complete failure.

Socialist Libertarian.

There is no such thing, as: "Socialist Libertarian". That is just as pethetic as saying you like, a dark-bright night or a cold-hot day.

Silverhandorder

11-20-2008, 05:59 PM

Yuri Bezmenov had a completely different take on the Soviet Union, and considering he was on the inside of what was really going on, I'm inclined to take his word for it rather than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE38dLxapVo

See the problem is Russians come to America and expect to get all the benefits they got there aka no work. So many Russians fall on thier face here and bitch how they have to work for their money now.

Thats why my parents work for the government, just like back home.

Cyle

11-20-2008, 06:02 PM

See the problem is Russians come to America and expect to get all the benefits they got there aka no work. So many Russians fall on thier face here and bitch how they have to work for their money now.

Thats why my parents work for the government, just like back home.

Funny how Americans are losing sight of the old method of "Hard work pays off."

Complacency, laziness, and moral decline lead to the fall of the Roman Empire. Don't forget that.

Tharkon Fargor

11-20-2008, 06:05 PM

where is my post about communism -> Fro <- Capitalism?

Killuminati

11-20-2008, 06:06 PM

No. Capitalism is driven by supply and demand so because workers are in large supply their wages will be lower, we are in a capitalist society.

except productivity is a reflection of your wages.

Cyle

11-20-2008, 06:08 PM

except productivity is a reflection of your wages.

More like, wages are a reflection of your productivity?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Attau

11-20-2008, 06:13 PM

All I ever get out of these posts anymore is how horrifically difficult it would ever be to convince people to read and critically think about topics instead of hearing some new-age interpretation on the television.

How all Americans are even starting to say "Well hey now, total government control over everything economically related doesn't sound so bad - they tend to do a good job and look out for me." is alarming.

Killuminati

11-20-2008, 06:28 PM

More like, wages are a reflection of your productivity?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

yah, thats what I meant /facepalm

Bow Locks

11-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Yuri Bezmenov had a completely different take on the Soviet Union, and considering he was on the inside of what was really going on, I'm inclined to take his word for it rather than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE38dLxapVo

This topic is never ending, so i think i will leave it at that. People always had and will always have different opinions. But as i said it before, you had to live there to understand what was good about it.

Also you dont need to show me ex KGB member and him telling us what was going on then. You probably would be more shocked if you found out from some CIA agent about whats going on these days. Do you realy think that nobody is getting shot, executed and tortured these days?

Anyways, i am out of this discusion, have a nice day everyone!

Axel231

11-20-2008, 07:22 PM

didnt really read all the responses but

Communism will never work because humans will always be greedy/corrupt/selfish if Communism could work to its absolute full potential i would rather be a communist.

What i mean is such as in Russia all the politics and such drive around in limousines and eat caviar and drink champagne while the rest are queuing up for bread. Doesnt seem too equal to me.

The only reason I dislike Capitalism, is the bourguisse (SP?) the wealth should be spread out into the lower classes

Lethn

11-20-2008, 07:30 PM

I think captalism works just fucking fine when you don't have assholes either trying to control it or mess with it in some way like the American government is doing now. In a true free market the people who work hard and actually plan their lives intelligently are more likely to get rich than the people who just laze around doing nothing all day.

I think communism is a brilliant as an ideology but it just don't work because the idea is based on all humans working single mindedly and that is just completely against our nature, it would be great if people were willing to do it but again capitalism just works far better in reality, I'm sure there would be some sort of alien race out there that follows this kind of ideology successfully though.

It's when people start trying to intefered with these principles and ideologies that we start seeing the fucked up countries we see today.

Cyle

11-20-2008, 07:30 PM

The only reason I dislike Capitalism, is the bourguisse (SP?) the wealth should be spread out into the lower classes

If the lower classes could earn the wealth, then they rightly deserve it.

Perhaps it's my "Capitalist upbringing" that allows me to understand the "Work for what you get" Attitude. It's a shame more do not understand this concept.

Jezrith

11-20-2008, 07:33 PM

This topic is never ending, so i think i will leave it at that. People always had and will always have different opinions. But as i said it before, you had to live there to understand what was good about it.

That may be true, but I definitely don't have to live there to know what was awful about it. I've had plenty of people who did live under the USSR tell me how awful it was.

Also you dont need to show me ex KGB member and him telling us what was going on then. You probably would be more shocked if you found out from some CIA agent about whats going on these days. Do you realy think that nobody is getting shot, executed and tortured these days?

No I wouldn't be. But one thing is for sure, we don't have state run Gulags.

Axel231

11-20-2008, 07:37 PM

If the lower classes could earn the wealth, then they rightly deserve it.

Perhaps it's my "Capitalist upbringing" that allows me to understand the "Work for what you get" Attitude. It's a shame more do not understand this concept.

Yea they earned their money but people at the top of the boaruraugesiise (SP!?!?) have billions and billions of pounds (Im from Britain) do they really need that much money? think how much money could go to hospitals / charities / scientists

Dhig

11-20-2008, 07:40 PM

Are you serious? Because You are absolutely wrong.

Marx's Communist Manifesto was a direct challenge and opposition to Capitalism. It was a complete critique of the system, calling for government control of industry and enterprise, stripping away any and all private property rights.

I cannot fathom where you got the idea that Marx actually believed in Capitalism when it is obviously the complete opposite.

Seriously, the lack of obvious understanding and education regarding this topic is astounding and disturbing.

Also, I agree that we are actually discussing the difference between economic systems: Capitalism and Socialism.

Yes ofc they believed in capitalism. Why would they even discuss it if they didnt believe in it?

Your education is astounding because what marx and engels wrote is just an ideology. What people do with them is another thing.

the ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force

This means you have no saying in anything except if you dont become one of the intellectual force.
Those that rule the countries.
That means you are only following what you believe is right.

And yes, they do mention the exploit of the free market and capitalism if it is the only ruling class.
And no, no countries in the world use only capitalism as the ruling class.
Could it be that they understood that when people get fucked by the higher class they would start a revolution.

So what this means is that America government use some communism and capitalism to rule.
So does every other country in the world.

hardboiled

11-20-2008, 07:41 PM

Breaking news: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aGSJzqaJm_b0&refer=europe

Pope predicted the financial problems.

Aragoni

11-20-2008, 07:45 PM

The best society is a society which is governed by the middle-class.

Dhig

11-20-2008, 07:48 PM

The best society is a society which is governed by the middle-class.

Until someone exploit it to profit and change things :rolleyes:

Axel231

11-20-2008, 07:49 PM

basically humans fucking suck

Arkh

11-20-2008, 07:55 PM

The best society is a society which is governed by the middle-class.
No. The best society is a society which is not governed and where people let you mind your own business as long as you don't attack them or their property.

Cyle

11-20-2008, 08:00 PM

The best society is a society which is governed by the middle-class.

Wrong.

Best society is a society that doesn't need a government.

Unfortunately, men are not angels, so we must settle for less.

Ikinoki

11-20-2008, 08:53 PM

the only good words I hear about USSR are from losers, who don't want to work to get something.
the problem is communism, or, to be honest, SOCIALISM corrupts people's mind in bad way and then it dies and crumbles because of fictional-economical model which is incomplete and drastically awful.
they start to think that cleaning a toilet is a big piece of work for which they MUST have a house, car, pc, hollywood-looking gf and 65" plasma. that's the problem of socialism, and it corrupts people for ages and for generations, as you can see in the words of "Bow Locks".

anyone thinking about communism, just imagine do you really want to live in society which DICTATES you it's choices!?

any questions? i'll surely answer them, go ahead

Bow Locks

11-20-2008, 09:18 PM

the only good words I hear about USSR are from losers, who don't want to work to get something.

Haha, sorry but you are some braindead dickhead with zero education.

Ikinoki

11-21-2008, 12:13 AM

Haha, sorry but you are some braindead dickhead with zero education.

in fact this message states that I was right ;)

Weeking

11-21-2008, 02:17 AM

I was watching a programme last night and it brought up an interesting point about similarities between communism and capitalism and it got me thinking. I know almost all of this forum with few noteable excpetions are for capitalism and strongly against communism.

My question is why? What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

Link or at least the name and the point it was making FFS, or you made it up to troll.

laizes-faire capitalism> communism> mixed economy (whole non-communist world)

Mixed economies continue with the practice of trade barriers, protected markets and giving privileges to big business and very rich people which is the mercantilism Marx criticized in Das Capital. And has the poor work and investment incentives of communism and most of the central planning/public sector. Economically it is much worse than either mercantilism (19th century capitalism) and USSR/China communism and growth rates confirm it I think.

ricodelcristo

01-26-2009, 06:21 AM

guys come on
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/mad_ruskkie/motivaional_communism.jpg?t=1232950536

Spineless_DoO

01-26-2009, 06:51 AM

Anything else you can think of?

Why does there need to be anything else? He stated the most important aspect and everything hinges on that.

jehutes

01-26-2009, 07:19 AM

Capitalist societies will lead to the demise of the human race. Certainly everybody can't always have everything they want; that would spark such huge conflicts of interest when the population gets too large.

Maybe not in our lifetimes...

Chankeen

01-26-2009, 07:25 AM

Man the propaganda machine worked very well to get so many people to equate communism with USSR and capitalism with USA.

-edit in: seeing as both theories want zero government at their ideal and both countries have/had massive governments.

jehutes

01-26-2009, 07:27 AM

Welcome to the susceptibility of the human psyche.

KazinQFT

01-26-2009, 07:47 AM

Capitalism failed much sooner than Communism did, In the US Capitalism failed in 1929. The concept that a Capitalist states exists today in North America or Europe is foolish. Most countries in the world today practice a mix between capitalism and communism.

Captialism and Communism both bring really important things to society today

Capitalism: creates shit tons of wealth, ingenuity, ambition, and social mobility

Communism or the fear of the LEFT brought every social program and worker protections to the 1st world. Including a Minimum wage, 40 hr work week, free public education, socialized medicine (even though i'm still waiting for it), welfare, unemployment insurance, public higher education the weekend.

A reason capitalism is a more dominant economic model today is that the US and Western Europe were able to appease Left movements in their own countries by mixing some elements of socialism into a majority capitalist economy. While the soveit union was not willing to make those same concessions. The world for a long while, saw that as the only model that works, but as we look at china, and parts of india we can see that mixing capitalism into a majority communist economy is also working.

A reality check for both sides is that the current economic system world wide leaves way to many people in destitute poverty.

Arromir

01-26-2009, 08:18 AM

In an imperfect world there will never be a perfect economy. That said, I will staunchly oppose communism. While it sounds good in theory, in practice it strips people of their individuality and their motivation, and that just leads to a further degradation of a broken system. There are many reasons why the Soviet Union failed. There are also many reasons why China is embracing capitalism. Now, those who support communism will chose to ignore them, praising it for it's ideals. And I really don't care to get into an argument with those people on here (it would go as well as all the God v.s atheism ones go). But just because I oppose communism doesn't mean I don't realize and admit that there are problems with capitalism.

Spineless_DoO

01-26-2009, 08:38 AM

Ion_StormH

01-26-2009, 08:44 AM

You sound like the type of person that would love nothing more then to lay the destitude of the poor on the backs of the producers in the world. Not my cup of tea as I am a constitutionalist loving American. If I am wrong I appoligise in advance.

No, you're right - what you were reading is actual history. That doesn't go well with ideology usually.

:)

*coughBismarckintroducingwelfareprogramt otackleSPDcough*

Chankeen

01-26-2009, 08:48 AM

of the producers in the world.

Curious to see who you consider to be the producers of the world? Though I suspect I know the answer before asking, one never knows.

Vanno

01-26-2009, 04:08 PM

Because communism goes against human nature while capitalism works with human nature.

This argument is always a bundle of failure, and it always is, incorrectly, brought up in this stupid debate.

Black Thunder

01-26-2009, 04:33 PM

Actually in communism the people are supposed to control everything.

They never do.

Nexus

01-26-2009, 04:36 PM

Justinian

01-26-2009, 05:02 PM

Patrician

01-26-2009, 06:33 PM

I was watching a programme last night and it brought up an interesting point about similarities between communism and capitalism and it got me thinking. I know almost all of this forum with few noteable excpetions are for capitalism and strongly against communism.

My question is why? What makes you prefer capitalism over communism?

This is one of those 'US-threads', right?

It's an American thing, I guess. A cold war relic. People there pretend to hate communism, but in reallity they're simply pro-US and anti-'Soviet Russia'. I doubt that anyone would really protest if US gov. invented some socialist structures (public health care, more public jobs, stuff like that), at least once they tried it and realised the benefits.

Justinian

01-26-2009, 06:38 PM

Capitalism failed much sooner than Communism did, In the US Capitalism failed in 1929. The concept that a Capitalist states exists today in North America or Europe is foolish. Most countries in the world today practice a mix between capitalism and communism.

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. You went to college, didn't you? :lmao:

Captialism and Communism both bring really important things to society today

Capitalism: creates shit tons of wealth, ingenuity, ambition, and social mobility

Communism or the fear of the LEFT brought every social program and worker protections to the 1st world. Including a Minimum wage, 40 hr work week, free public education, socialized medicine (even though i'm still waiting for it), welfare, unemployment insurance, public higher education the weekend.

Really? Did it? I could've sworn it was concerned workers and people in areas being oppressed by cartels (read: government-created monopolies) who did this, and not "communism". What does that even mean? "Communism did something. Capitalism did something." People do things.

A reason capitalism is a more dominant economic model today is that the US and Western Europe were able to appease Left movements in their own countries by mixing some elements of socialism into a majority capitalist economy. While the soveit union was not willing to make those same concessions. The world for a long while, saw that as the only model that works, but as we look at china, and parts of india we can see that mixing capitalism into a majority communist economy is also working.

A reality check for both sides is that the current economic system world wide leaves way to many people in destitute poverty.

Please visit www.mises.org, www.lewrockwell.com, and www.europac.net and free your mind.

Justinian

01-26-2009, 06:41 PM

This is one of those 'US-threads', right?

It's an American thing, I guess. A cold war relic. People there pretend to hate communism, but in reallity they're simply pro-US and anti-'Soviet Russia'. I doubt that anyone would really protest if US gov. invented some socialist structures (public health care, more public jobs, stuff like that), at least once they tried it and realised the benefits.

Thanks for speaking on behalf of Americans everywhere, but you're an idiot.

I read economic theory, history, and political theory and history, and I came to the conclusion that Capitalism/Liberalism works to raise the standard of living of EVERYONE longer-term, and socialism/conservatism do not. Arbitrary national boundaries have nothing to do with it.

Would you like it if I said all Austrians are dumb as pigshit and make overly broad generalizations based on geopolitical boundaries, as though people aren't individuals?

Justinian

01-26-2009, 06:43 PM

This argument is always a bundle of failure, and it always is, incorrectly, brought up in this stupid debate.

it's also got nothing to do with the the economic facts underpinning the success of capitalism and the abject failure of anything else.

Fro

01-26-2009, 06:44 PM

I see my completely awesome thread was necroed. Understandable...

Justinian

01-26-2009, 06:45 PM

Curious to see who you consider to be the producers of the world? Though I suspect I know the answer before asking, one never knows.

Entrepreneurs. People who make new businesses and deploy capital in new and innovative ways.

I'm assuming you think it's the workers who do nothing to advance anything, but simply work at a factory? Well, the truth of it is, these people (used to) have the right to become entrepreneurs themselves and make some money. Instead, they used government to oppress the entrepreneurial class and pretty much bring us to where we are now.

GG Labor movement.

vodnik

01-26-2009, 06:47 PM

Workers control the means of production.

Justinian

01-26-2009, 06:48 PM

Workers control the means of production.

define "control"

Patrician

01-26-2009, 07:14 PM

Thanks for speaking on behalf of Americans everywhere, but you're an idiot.

I read economic theory, history, and political theory and history, and I came to the conclusion that Capitalism/Liberalism works to raise the standard of living of EVERYONE longer-term, and socialism/conservatism do not. Arbitrary national boundaries have nothing to do with it.

Would you like it if I said all Austrians are dumb as pigshit and make overly broad generalizations based on geopolitical boundaries, as though people aren't individuals?

1) Maybe you should have read my post again, but it's OK. I didn't speak in behalf of anyone, not Communists and not Capitalists. I really appreciate people here calling me an idiot, though. It always makes me smile :)

2) In doing your studies, you should have paid some attention to history, especially 18th/19th century and the results of 100% capitalism: poor working class, working for up to 16 hours a day, child labour, ... OK, the factory owners were very wealthy, I'll grant you that.

3) Even today, the general standard of living in countries with a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism is much higher than in countries with a system of 100% capitalism/libertarian.

4) Again, insulting me won't work. But as you said, OFCOURSE I've mentioned geopolitical boundaries. You can't discuss a topic like that without referring to real examples (well, maybe you could. But why?).

5) Maybe it was the 'we're all pro capitalism'- thing that made me think about America, sorry for that (not really)