Name ONE good thing accomplished by big federal government. [Archive]

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:07 PM

Aww, did someone get butt-hurt when their fairytale got exposed for sham it is?

I'm not religious, nice try.

the revoloution
Fought by terrorists that then designed world's smallest federal government. Try again.

nasa
Big achievement :rolleyes:

civil war (and that funky Amendment)
So 600k Americans dead and half the country in ruin as opposed to peaceful ending in Europe... I'm not sure I would go around praising that as good.

FDA

How many bad Chinese products hit the shelves this year alone?
How many people died from cancer because their medicine has a risk of heart attack and therefore is prohibited.
the fucking Dept of Defense
Present with the small constitutional government also...

those are ALL products of the US government, please think before typing

Now provide me one good thing 'big" federal government has done.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:08 PM

So we enjoy it in spite of the the government that runs and funds the military (and it is a BIG military) that protects our freedoms (our way of life). Wow, way to piss on the graves of the veterans who died to protect our freedoms.

Switzerland agrees.:lmao:

NapalmEnema

10-21-2008, 06:08 PM

Now provide me one good thing 'big" federal government has done.

Maintained a fair and balanced, well rounded and financially sound economy.

/thread

I bid you good day sir. <waves hand>

holychicken

10-21-2008, 06:08 PM

I'm not religious, nice try.
Damn.

Thanks for the encouragement anyway.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:08 PM

Maintained a fair and balanced, well rounded and financially sound economy.

/thread

I bid you good day sir. <waves hand>

O__O Financial crisis on wall street.

Lysandor

10-21-2008, 06:08 PM

the quality of life we enjoy on a daily basis.

you being allowed to drive a hummer.

I think the OP meant stuff big government did that a small efficient government couldn't.

Fizbanui

10-21-2008, 06:09 PM

NapalmEnema

10-21-2008, 06:10 PM

O__O Financial crisis on wall street.

unpossible. Bush said it's fine, so it's fine. Now if you excuse me I need to go scrape dinner off the highway and decide which kid is expendable because food costs too much. <waves hand dismissively>

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:10 PM

:lmao::lmao: You should go outside and meet the real world, dude!

It's funny because he is a democrat.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:11 PM

unpossible. Bush said it's fine, so it's fine. Now if you excuse me I need to go scrape dinner off the highway and decide which kid is expendable because food costs too much. <waves hand dismissively>

Thank to government intervention mainly paying farmers not to farm and taxing companies so prices on your shit rise.

NapalmEnema

10-21-2008, 06:12 PM

Thank to government intervention mainly paying farmers not to farm and taxing companies so prices on your shit rise.

You do know I'm trying to be massively sarcastic and make you layuff a little right? :ohno:

/joker why so serious?

holychicken

10-21-2008, 06:12 PM

:lmao::lmao: You should go outside and meet the real world, dude!
No thanks. The outside air is a little rough on my skin and the glow of these fluorescent lights bring me great comfort.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:14 PM

You do know I'm trying to be massively sarcastic and make you layuff a little right? :ohno:

/joker why so serious?

I know but I really hate you for butchering the religious thread. You had so many choices to go with you decided to go with the one thats impossible to defend.

Just look how many here think the fucked up shit big gov't has done is good.

Cyle

10-21-2008, 06:14 PM

Joe the Plumber says this thread has no license to operate, and therefore fails.

On a side note, big government leads to war. Wars are fun.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 06:17 PM

So we enjoy it in spite of the the government that runs and funds the military (and it is a BIG military) that protects our freedoms (our way of life).

You mean that huge military that is spread out all over the world and as such could barely protect us from an invasion right now? That same military that wouldn't even exist if private enterprise didn't exist?

Wow, way to piss on the graves of the veterans who died to protect our freedoms.

There hasn't been a veteran that his died protecting our freedom in over 60 years.

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 06:18 PM

I think you have to define "Big" in the context of government before you get any answers you want.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:19 PM

I think you have to define "Big" in the context of government before you get any answers you want.

Anything outside the original intent of constitution.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:19 PM

the quality of life we enjoy on a daily basis.

you being allowed to drive a hummer.

and that will last FOREVER INDEFINITELY

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 06:20 PM

Anything outside the original intent of constitution.

But the 9th Amendment allows for that, so again, you need to define the term, unless you specifically mean to the letter of what is written in the Constitution...

EDIT: Wrong Amendment. /shame

EDIT: Still wrong...nvm.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 06:21 PM

I'm not religious, nice try.

Fought by terrorists that then designed world's smallest federal government. Try again. --- and it was a LARGE FEDERAL government that was created, biggest one in this hemisphere at the time...read your history

Big achievement :rolleyes: --- you truly are fucking ignorant, aren't you? from the space race we have all of electronics since the vacuum tube, including networked computers....telemetric medicine...the pacemaker, hell ALL miniturization of technology...advances in astronomy and physics..on and on...but i guess scientific advancement doesn't mean much to you

So 600k Americans dead and half the country in ruin as opposed to peaceful ending in Europe... I'm not sure I would go around praising that as good. -- ended slavery and united the country under a common set of federal LAWS...YEAH, THAT'S IMPORTANT...and was indeed costly...go and read what one of the Founders said about the "Tree of Liberty...

How many bad Chinese products hit the shelves this year alone?
How many people died from cancer because their medicine has a risk of heart attack and therefore is prohibited. --- now imagine if there was NOT some agency and regulation? thought so...you appear incapable of thinking past the Ideology your collectivist masters have indoctrinated you with

Present with the small constitutional government also... bullshit once again

Now provide me one good thing 'big" federal government has done.

after all that has been set before you, you continue to show nothing but willfull ignorance and the distinct ability to be deliberately obtuse in the face of facts presented...i know Lindorn likes you...so i have been happy to present you with the benefit of the Doubt...

not any more...

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:22 PM

But the 10th Amendment allows for that, so again, you need to define the term, unless you specifically mean to the letter of what is written in the Constitution...

what?

Logically speaking, as soon as you start "interpreting" the Constitution or any legal document for that matter, it's dead. You've killed it. You opened the floodgate to any old asshole coming in and giving his own reading, which is oftentimes contradictory. How does that work?

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 06:22 PM

But the 10th Amendment allows for that,

No it doesn't. L2Constitution...

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 06:23 PM

Anything outside the original intent of constitution.

Objection your Honor...calls for pure speculation

NapalmEnema

10-21-2008, 06:24 PM

I know but I really hate you for butchering the religious thread. You had so many choices to go with you decided to go with the one thats impossible to defend.

Just look how many here think the fucked up shit big gov't has done is good.

I just think that organized religion has done more harm than good over the course of history and even now in modern times.

I mean - organized religion got Bush elected - TWICE

How can you not see it's evil ways!!! :ohno::ohno:

Fizbanui

10-21-2008, 06:24 PM

I love you guys:D.

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 06:26 PM

EDIT: Still wrong.....

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:26 PM

No it doesn't. L2Constitution...

yeah, that was what I meant by "what?" in my other post.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:27 PM

stopped business from putting deadly substances intro food products

there's one...there are more

like, winning WW1 and 2

and so on...

failed troll is fail

you act like these things occurred in a vacuum. As though government subsidies/grants/etc didn't grant, say, monopoly control to a company which then poisoned people, and since there was no competition in the market, they could get away with it.

you act like WW1 and WW2 just magically happened, as though big government had no involvement whatsoever in creating those messes to begin with.

in short, what the fuck are you on about?

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 06:30 PM

Objection your Honor...calls for pure speculation

Objection overruled. The verbiage of the COTUS is explicit and intent is easily derived.

ended slavery and united the country under a common set of federal LAWS...YEAH, THAT'S IMPORTANT...and was indeed costly...go and read what one of the Founders said about the "Tree of Liberty...

Yeah it ended slavery, (a practice that was phased out every where else in the world without a war because it was economically unsustainable after the industrial revolution) by destroying everything that was good about the country. WOOT go go fed.gov!

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:31 PM

after all that has been set before you, you continue to show nothing but willfull ignorance and the distinct ability to be deliberately obtuse in the face of facts presented...i know Lindorn likes you...so i have been happy to present you with the benefit of the Doubt...

not any more...

Mmmm there is no basis in what you said that all that is a good thing. I can waste my time and try to teach you of your ignorance, but I will choose not to.

Atua

10-21-2008, 06:32 PM

you act like these things occurred in a vacuum. As though government subsidies/grants/etc didn't grant, say, monopoly control to a company which then poisoned people, and since there was no competition in the market, they could get away with it.

you act like WW1 and WW2 just magically happened, as though big government had no involvement whatsoever in creating those messes to begin with.

in short, what the fuck are you on about?

Oh look, someone I agree with.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 06:32 PM

Doh, meant the 9th Amendment. Thanks for the correction.

The 9th amendment doesn't do that either.

5%Luck

10-21-2008, 06:33 PM

Watershed protection act!

umm

Land preservation act

umm

landfill recovery act

ummm

theres tons in just the EPA!

Hypseos

10-21-2008, 06:34 PM

If your going to be a git just make a thread called “Define good?”:bang:

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:34 PM

Watershed protection act!

umm

Land preservation act

umm

landfill recovery act

ummm

theres tons in just the EPA!

That are already illegal if you follow the Constitution.

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 06:36 PM

The 9th amendment doesn't do that either.

I realized that shortly after I posted it. Foot going back in mouth until thread is done.

Apex Vertigo

10-21-2008, 06:37 PM

How did OT turn so fast from a libertarian circle jerk to a social democrat circle jerk?

A libertarian circle jerk wouldn't be much fun, you'd have to do it all by yourself, defeats the whole purpose of a circle jerk.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 06:38 PM

Objection overruled. The verbiage of the COTUS is explicit and intent is easily derived.

Yeah it ended slavery, (a practice that was phased out every where else in the world without a war because it's economical unsustainable) by destroying everything that was good about the country. WOOT go go fed.gov!

your Honor, I will contend your ruling, and file for appeal...but I understand why you ruled as you did....

side note, so how about the Amendments since the first 10? the Amendment process itself...or the simple fact that the Constitution leaves it to the Legislative branch to create laws...and that SCOTUS was set in place for exactly what you over ruled me on....interpreting the COTUS itself?

as for slavery being "economically unsustainable"...it appears no one told the South at the time in question, they were making good money from it by using their cheap labor and dumping their products to Northern and English mills far below the cost of free person labor...what, what does that remind me of currently....?

oh yeah...China

Mmmm there is no basis in what you said that all that is a good thing. I can waste my time and try to teach you of your ignorance, but I will choose not to.

you sir, should pay more attention in school, and try reading a book that doesn't come from your master's approved list...

Gunther TheBlack

10-21-2008, 06:38 PM

None were achieved by big government.

CERN is as big as government can get imo and we got the internet mainly thanks to them.

I'm no fan of big government. But a normal government accomplished more than anarchy did.

Anyway, government did end child labor in my country.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 06:40 PM

CERN is as big as government can get imo and we got the internet mainly thanks to them.

minor correction...they invented the world wide web...the internet itself comes form the DEF department's experiments with universities that created the progenitor...ARPANET, which gave us the basic protocol code we still use to this day

ANOTHER product of "big government" that allows us this very medium to discuss shit over...

Tzacharu

10-21-2008, 06:41 PM

Now we see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

Sig'd

Lord Helmet for the win.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:42 PM

your Honor, I will contend your ruling, and file for appeal...but I understand why you ruled as you did....

side note, so how about the Amendments since the first 10? the Amendment process itself...or the simple fact that the Constitution leaves it to the Legislative branch to create laws...and that SCOTUS was set in place for exactly what you over ruled me on....interpreting the COTUS itself?

Where in the name of vishnu do you get this? The SCOTUS was set in place to "interpret" the COTUS? What?

as for slavery being "economically unsustainable"...it appears no one told the South at the time in question, they were making good money from it by using their cheap labor and dumping their products to Northern and English mills far below the cost of free person labor...what, what does that remind me of currently....?

oh yeah...China

what's your point

you sir, should pay more attention in school, and try reading a book that doesn't come from your master's approved list...

If you went to public school in the US and university, then what you just said here is painfully hypocritical.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:46 PM

CERN is as big as government can get imo and we got the internet mainly thanks to them.

it's a pretty common myth that the Internet was created by the government. The government stifled the Internet for years until they finally allowed the market to step in, and that's when the explosive growth occurred. see: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/023540.html

I'm no fan of big government. But a normal government accomplished more than anarchy did.

How's that? When has there ever been anarchy, anywhere, except for post-Revolutionary America (which did pretty well without the government, btw)

Anyway, government did end child labor in my country.

No, it didn't. The people chose to end child labor. The "government" was secondary.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:47 PM

No one here is advocating anarchy.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:48 PM

No one here is advocating anarchy.

I advocate anarchy. I am capable of not committing acts of violence all on my own - I don't need the government to threaten punishment.

Gunther TheBlack

10-21-2008, 06:49 PM

it's a pretty common myth that the Internet was created by the government. The government stifled the Internet for years until they finally allowed the market to step in, and that's when the explosive growth occurred. see: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/023540.html

Well government did create the internet and the web.

It's easy talking afterwards with some nice conspiracy theories hahaha.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:50 PM

Well government did create the internet and the web.

It's easy talking afterwards with some nice conspiracy theories hahaha.

hahaha conspiracy theories lololol

oh sorry, I was just repeating your awesome argument :>

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 06:51 PM

I advocate anarchy. I am capable of not committing acts of violence all on my own - I don't need the government to threaten punishment.

I know but then you have to live in constant state of struggle vs new governments forming. Why not make a small one and police the small government.

Gunther TheBlack

10-21-2008, 06:52 PM

I advocate anarchy. I am capable of not committing acts of violence all on my own - I don't need the government to threaten punishment.

If you advocate anarchy you're just a lame troll or a guy that wants to live like in the stone age.

After all family clans and guilds is also a form of government. Pure individualism aka anarchy would have gotten humanity nowhere.

It's a system were you lose all knowledge every time you die and you don't progress.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 06:52 PM

side note, so how about the Amendments since the first 10? the Amendment process itself...

What about them? The amendment process was set in place to making the COTUS a living document, it was never supposed to be a living document through interpretation. This fact makes it more obvious that the document is specific in verbiage and should be taken literally.

or the simple fact that the Constitution leaves it to the Legislative branch to create laws...and that SCOTUS was set in place for exactly what you over ruled me on....interpreting the COTUS itself?

The SCOTUS is meant to interpret the laws, not the COTUS. Unless you don't speak English, the COTUS does not need to be interpreted.

as for slavery being "economically unsustainable"...it appears no one told the South at the time in question, they were making good money from it by using their cheap labor and dumping their products to Northern and English mills far below the cost of free person labor...what, what does that remind me of currently....?

Actually, as the North industrialized the South saw it as a threat, this is why they clung to slavery. They couldn't see how they could compete with the North without slavery. Considering the rest of the world figured out how to compete without a war, its no stretch to say the South would have eventually done the same.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 06:54 PM

Where in the name of vishnu do you get this? The SCOTUS was set in place to "interpret" the COTUS? What?
--- does not the Consittution define the responsibilities of SCOTUS to rule on cases of Constitutional law? does that not require them to interpret it and does that not make them the ultimate authority on the subject?

what's your point --- figure it out in context

If you went to public school in the US and university, then what you just said here is painfully hypocritical.

yep...i went to public school...and even there i chose to read a ton of stuff that was not on any "list of approved books"....i still do, nice try at a straw man, but not everyone is young enough to still BE in school, not naive enough to think that what comes form a school is all that there is afterwards...

try not to project your own ignorance and sloppy thinking onto others...kk?

tnx

jonyak

10-21-2008, 06:57 PM

I advocate anarchy. I am capable of not committing acts of violence all on my own - I don't need the government to threaten punishment.

its not people like you that need that. its the other nutjobs, who given the opportunity would kill you and your family for what you own and take it for themselves.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 06:59 PM

yep...i went to public school...and even there i chose to read a ton of stuff that was not on any "list of approved books"....i still do, nice try at a straw man, but not everyone is young enough to still BE in school, not naive enough to think that what comes form a school is all that there is afterwards...

try not to project your own ignorance and sloppy thinking onto others...kk?

tnx

The SCOTUS is there to make sure Congress doesn't try to pull shady shit. That's it. End of story. It doesn't interpret the Constitution, it matches up the nonsense Congress writes with what's written down in the COTUS. Huge difference.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:00 PM

its not people like you that need that. its the other nutjobs, who given the opportunity would kill you and your family for what you own and take it for themselves.

you think the threat of government violence really stops these kinds of people? if you do, what evidence do you have other than "gut feeling"?

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:01 PM

you think the threat of government violence really stops these kinds of people? if you do, what evidence do you have other than "gut feeling"?

the fact that noone has killed me and my family and taken all my stuff.

and no the big government hasn't stopped them all, but I know there are people out there who knowing there were no reprecussions would.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 07:04 PM

the fact that noone has killed me and my family and taken all my stuff.

That's pretty freakin specious reasoning, there man. Guess what! This post is actually a shark repellent!!! See any sharks around?!!! Obviously it works!

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:04 PM

the fact that noone has killed me and my family and taken all my stuff.

and no the big government hasn't stopped them all, but I know there are people out there who knowing there were no reprecussions would.

you chalk up the fact that nobody has killed you and your family to government intervention? on what grounds? that it happens to be there at the same time? is your assumption that it's a direct cause-and-effect situation? could it be a correlation instead? if so, on what grounds do you say that the correlation won't remain the same if there were no government? gut feeling doesn't count.

Gibsnag

10-21-2008, 07:04 PM

Well government did create the internet and the web.

Tim Berners-Lee initially developed the Web at CERN. The US Gov funded development of the Internet.

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:14 PM

That's pretty freakin specious reasoning, there man. Guess what! This post is actually a shark repellent!!! See any sharks around?!!! Obviously it works!

obviously it does.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 07:16 PM

The SCOTUS is there to make sure Congress doesn't try to pull shady shit. That's it. End of story. It doesn't interpret the Constitution, it matches up the nonsense Congress writes with what's written down in the COTUS. Huge difference.

really?

do quote the part of the Constitution that backs up your "strict constructionist" interpretation that i have quoted

here i had thought the appeals process, and SCOTUS being able to choose which cases it takes on the basis of there being mistakes by lower courts in regards to the Constitution involved the LITERAL INTERPRETATION of both for reconciliation and ruling

i don't think some of these words you use mean what you think they mean

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:16 PM

you chalk up the fact that nobody has killed you and your family to government intervention? on what grounds? that it happens to be there at the same time? is your assumption that it's a direct cause-and-effect situation? could it be a correlation instead? if so, on what grounds do you say that the correlation won't remain the same if there were no government? gut feeling doesn't count.

meh...

I don't need to reason it.

I take it as granted that the threat of violence or death from police keeps a large portion of semi moral people at bay.

hell I'd go on a killing spree if I couldn't get caught.

Silverhandorder

10-21-2008, 07:18 PM

hell I'd go on a killing spree if I couldn't get caught.

You should have started with that...

its not people like you that need that. its the other nutjobs, who given the opportunity would kill you and your family for what you own and take it for themselves.

Lulz

Feyrband

10-21-2008, 07:20 PM

Aids

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:21 PM

Aids

THIS

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 07:21 PM

hell I'd go on a killing spree if I couldn't get caught.

I find this to be a common theme amongst most left wing people. They believe they themselves need to be controlled, so they believe everyone needs to be controlled as well. Its just go to show you, if want to know what someone thinks about themselves, find out what they think about the world in general.

Ziegler

10-21-2008, 07:22 PM

Kennedy Assisination?

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 07:23 PM

Aids

H.I.V.!

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k2vIDnHEI

Matriel

10-21-2008, 07:24 PM

stopped business from putting deadly substances intro food products

That must be why the FDA has been about totally ineffective at stopping all the e coli outbreaks of late. Or the salmonella contamination in pet food. Good thing private groups took up the slack there.

there's one...there are more

like, winning WW1 and 2

and so on...

failed troll is fail

We should have never been involved in WWI or WWII.

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:27 PM

I find this to be a common theme amongst most left wing people. They believe they themselves need to be controlled, so they believe everyone needs to be controlled as well. Its just go to show you, if want to know what someone thinks about themselves, find out what they think about the world in general.

not really how I think about it.

I feel if I think like this, then there are also millions of others out there that do as well.

unless I am totaly unique, which is cool.

I don't need to be controled. but I know if there were no reprecussions for my actions I would be much more tempted to get out of my car and beat the hell out of that asshole who tailgated me while swearing at me, honking his horn and flashing his brights at me this morning because I wasn't driving as fast as he wanted me to be.

I hate the world and most of the humans in it.

I don't hate myself though... your theory is debunked.

hardboiled

10-21-2008, 07:27 PM

Hong Kong is fine with small government. People would argue it's better off than many other places with heavy regulation.

Killuminati

10-21-2008, 07:27 PM

stopped business from putting deadly substances intro food products

there's one...there are more

like, winning WW1 and 2

and so on...

failed troll is fail

LOL, winning wars that other governments created is an accomplishment?

Also, yay, public interest doctrine myths 4tw

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 07:29 PM

That must be why the FDA has been about totally ineffective at stopping all the e coli outbreaks of late. Or the salmonella contamination in pet food. Good thing private groups took up the slack there.

We should have never been involved in WWI or WWII.

a si said previously...just imagine what it would be like without them at all, also while i am all for chalking a lot of shit up to this administration's incompetence...one has to look at the lack of resources available to them as compared to all the imports that need checking

as for the World Wars... a case can be made for your opinion, but do remember in WW2 we were attacked, is it your contention we should not go to war against those who prosecute War against U.S.?

seems like war was Constitutional to me....they put in a few provisions for it, one can even say they expected U.S. to need to defend ourselves...quite Literally...

hardboiled

10-21-2008, 07:30 PM

New challenge: Name ONE good thing accomplished by democracy.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:30 PM

not really how I think about it.

I feel if I think like this, then there are also millions of others out there that do as well.

unless I am totaly unique, which is cool.

I don't need to be controled. but I know if there were no reprecussions for my actions I would be much more tempted to get out of my car and beat the hell out of that asshole who tailgated me while swearing at me, honking his horn and flashing his brights at me this morning because I wasn't driving as fast as he wanted me to be.

I hate the world and most of the humans in it.

I don't hate myself though... your theory is debunked.

I hate the world and most of the humans in it, but exercise a little self-control guy. The government didn't teach me through negative reinforcement not to commit crimes - my parents taught me the Golden Rule (do unto others) and that's what I live by.

The government is completely unnecessary and is, in fact, an encumbrance in the realm of morality.

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:31 PM

New challenge: Name ONE good thing accomplished by democracy.

anal sex.

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:32 PM

a si said previously...just imagine what it would be like without them at all, also while i am all for chalking a lot of shit up to this administration's incompetence...one has to look at the lack of resources available to them as compared to all the imports that need checking

as for the World Wars... a case can be made for your opinion, but do remember in WW2 we were attacked, is it your contention we should not go to war against those who prosecute War against U.S.?

"we" is a vague term. Government property in the Pacific Ocean was attacked. Does that mean that we the people need to go fight and die on their behalf?

Not only that, but look a bit more into history and you'll see how Japan was goaded into doing what they did. Does that absolve them? Absolutely not. But it also doesn't give our government carte blanche to nuke the poor fuckers.

I also noticed that you conveniently ignored mentioning WWI ;)

Matriel

10-21-2008, 07:34 PM

a si said previously...just imagine what it would be like without them at all, also while i am all for chalking a lot of shit up to this administration's incompetence...one has to look at the lack of resources available to them as compared to all the imports that need checking

Lack of resources? They have a fucking billion dollar budget.

as for the World Wars... a case can be made for your opinion, but do remember in WW2 we were attacked, is it your contention we should not go to war against those who prosecute War against U.S.?

seems like war was Constitutional to me....they put in a few provisions for it, one can even say they expected U.S. to need to defend ourselves...quite Literally...

Victors write history. Our oil embargoes against Japan in the name of European imperial interests are the cassus belli for that attack. No matter how much FDR dicksuckers say otherwise. Hell, we've even recognized cassus belli for other wars that were less than that.

And sure they were Constitutional, but they go against the entire ethos of America that was trade with all, ally with none.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 07:35 PM

I hate the world and most of the humans in it.

I generally find this to be the case with the left as well. They hate the world and people in general but are the biggest champions of helping out the poor and unfortunate at the expense of other people. Just interesting theme I see quite often...

I don't hate myself though... your theory is debunked.

Yeah, but there has to be some level of self-loathing that goes along with that world view. If I thought the only thing that was stopping me from going on a killing spree was the police and the law, I'd think I was at least a little bit of a shitty person.

Mr.LichTwitch

10-21-2008, 07:37 PM

Good is impossible to define in an objective sense and subjectively is meaningless.

Much truth in that post, much truth.

jonyak

10-21-2008, 07:39 PM

Yeah, but there has to be some level of self-loathing that goes along with that world view. If I thought the only thing that was stopping me from going on a killing spree was the police and the law, I'd think I was at least a little bit of a shitty person.

haha...

well a killing spree was a bit of a exageration.

but what if I like being an asshole?

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 07:39 PM

LOL, winning wars that other governments created is an accomplishment?

Also, yay, public interest doctrine myths 4tw

two words for the ignorant....

Pearl Harbor

add two more - Self defense

that clear up WW2 for ya?

Justinian

10-21-2008, 07:42 PM

two words for the ignorant....

Pearl Harbor

add two more - Self defense

that clear up WW2 for ya?

refer to: other posts in this thread by both me and Matriel

Matriel

10-21-2008, 07:42 PM

two words for the ignorant....

Pearl Harbor

add two more - Self defense

that clear up WW2 for ya?

1939 oil embargoes against the Japanese in the name of European Imperial interests. Please read some WWII history that's not from American public schools.

Atua

10-21-2008, 07:46 PM

two words for the ignorant....

Pearl Harbor

add two more - Self defense

that clear up WW2 for ya?

Also should we not consider the treaty of Versailles which made Hitler who he was?

Killuminati

10-21-2008, 07:46 PM

two words for the ignorant....

Pearl Harbor

add two more - Self defense

that clear up WW2 for ya?

so, you just repeat the same shit even though it was made clear already we were aggressing Japan by embargoing them during their fight with China. Not to mention FDR was finding all kinds of excuses to get us into war.

See: Lend-Lease Act.

Anyways, as I said earlier, governments started the war....

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 08:20 PM

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 09:03 PM

he blamed the Army high command for a poor imperialistic decision...not an oil embargo

What do you think the oil embargo was?

Weeking

10-21-2008, 09:30 PM

Economic ruin for the morons supporting it. (eventually)

Damwa

10-21-2008, 09:37 PM

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=75653

In light of this retardedness I want to follow the same logical path that this idiot used.

So, your instinctive reaction to something retarded

.... is something *equally* retarded?

Good show, what?

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 09:37 PM

Genocide

Matriel

10-21-2008, 09:50 PM

so a trade embargo is an act of war, and NOT an economic tool?

Look up other cassus belli for wars around the world. Yes, embargoes can and have been recognized as cassus belli. Except for when it's the US doing it to the Japanese. Maybe your hypocrisy knows no bounds, but mine does.

who knew...

might i refer you to some Japanese historians who wrote on this very topic?

Admiral Yamamoto might be a good place to start, especially since he was educated in the US, and was in charge of the Pearl Harbor assault...he blamed the Army high command for a poor imperialistic decision...not an oil embargo

there's others, but obviously agreement is not to be had...and some folks erroneous pre-conceptions about their Doctor are not only inaccurate, but uninformed and down right silly...

Yamamoto thought it was a bad idea because he recognized the sleeping giant that was being awoken. Yamamoto wasn't in charge of the Japanese economy either, so saying he wasn't pissed about the oil embargoes is irrelevant.

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 09:57 PM

Fuck Gov.

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 09:58 PM

Fuck Gov.

Fuck you

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 10:00 PM

Look up other cassus belli for wars around the world. Yes, embargoes can and have been recognized as cassus belli. Except for when it's the US doing it to the Japanese. Maybe your hypocrisy knows no bounds, but mine does.

Yamamoto thought it was a bad idea because he recognized the sleeping giant that was being awoken. Yamamoto wasn't in charge of the Japanese economy either, so saying he wasn't pissed about the oil embargoes is irrelevant.

whatever the cause for Japan..we are talking about the reason the US government went to war...much as i do appreciate your thought in this discourse, i am not tilting at the straw windmill

the US was attacked militarily, and thus declared war...no arguments on that point?

and the US government prosecuted said war...right, wrong or indifferent... i would think most anyone would take the winning of that war as a "good" thing, especially in light of the alternatives

which was my original point in response to the topic of the thread

i do heartily appreciate the thoughtful level of the discussion, but it appears we will just have to disagree

Matriel

10-21-2008, 10:04 PM

whatever the cause for Japan..we are talking about the reason the US government went to war...much as i do appreciate your thought in this discourse, i am not tilting at the straw windmill

the US was attacked militarily, and thus declared war...no arguments on that point?

and the US government prosecuted said war...right, wrong or indifferent... i would think most anyone would take the winning of that war as a "good" thing, especially in light of the alternatives

which was my original point in response to the topic of the thread

i do heartily appreciate the thoughtful level of the discussion, but it appears we will just have to disagree

How can it be a good thing when the war itself could have been avoided?

Over 450,000 Americans would have lived (since we used conscription like a motherfucker). Untold amounts of money would have been saved. Etc...

I think anyone that's not caught up on WWII propaganda should realize that it was a great example of why big federal governments are bad.

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 10:05 PM

Ori Disciple

10-21-2008, 10:11 PM

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 10:11 PM

How can it be a good thing when the war itself could have been avoided?

Over 450,000 Americans would have lived (since we used conscription like a motherfucker). Untold amounts of money would have been saved. Etc...

I think anyone that's not caught up on WWII propaganda should realize that it was a great example of why big federal governments are bad.

so it would have been better for the US, in you opinion, to let the Axis win and thus control all of Europe and Asia as well as North Africa?

this somehow would have been in our national security interests?

and i'm glad, for the sake of my relatives that were and those that still are, in Europe that such was not the case...

no worries, as i said, we will just have to disagree on this one

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 10:14 PM

Fuck you

What the fuck you want?

Go suck presidents dick ... gov rat.

Jezrith

10-21-2008, 10:20 PM

so it would have been better for the US, in you opinion, to let the Axis win and thus control all of Europe and Asia as well as North Africa?

I seriously doubt they would have won. Its more than likely that the USSR would have ended up trouncing them like they did.

Kurog

10-21-2008, 10:21 PM

What the fuck you want?

Go suck presidents dick ... gov rat.

This!

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 10:21 PM

What the fuck you want?

Go suck presidents dick ... gov rat.

I don't have a president.

Damwa

10-21-2008, 10:23 PM

What the fuck you want?

Go suck presidents dick ... gov rat.

Well, keeping this in mind:

Which candidate would you prefer for president?

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 10:23 PM

I don't have a president.

Yes you do. You are located in Off-Topic, and Brannoc is the President here.

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 10:24 PM

Yes you do. You are located in Off-Topic, and Brannoc is the President here.

Brannoc is not a president. He is a dictator.

Lysandor

10-21-2008, 10:26 PM

QFT
WWII helped pull the US out of the grat depression. just like blackfire said.
say what you will, nonbelievers, but black made a valid point.
FEAR HIM!!!

So your solution to big government's collateral damage is more big government?

Do you want to start WW3 to get us out of our recession too?

Matriel

10-21-2008, 10:26 PM

So are we just ignoring the fact that the massive mobilization of resources and industry in response to the war helped pull the US out of the Great Depression?

QFT
WWII helped pull the US out of the grat depression. just like blackfire said.
say what you will, nonbelievers, but black made a valid point.
FEAR HIM!!!

Oh pish posh. The GD would have already been past in the US without the god damn Raw Deal.

so it would have been better for the US, in you opinion, to let the Axis win and thus control all of Europe and Asia as well as North Africa?

this somehow would have been in our national security interests?

and i'm glad, for the sake of my relatives that were and those that still are, in Europe that such was not the case...

no worries, as i said, we will just have to disagree on this one

Why should the US have given a shit what happens in Asia, Europe, and Africa? As long as they traded with us it shouldn't matter.

National Security interests lol. Name a single country from WWII era to now that could actually force project on US soil. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Lysandor

10-21-2008, 10:26 PM

Brannoc is not a president. He is a dictator.

He is Micheal Jackson and Matriel is Tito.

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 10:27 PM

Well, keeping this in mind:

Which candidate would you prefer for president?

None... :/

But since it wont happen, so someone who dosent hate jews.

must of them do.

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 10:29 PM

He is Micheal Jackson and Matriel is Tito.

Are you suggesting something about his sexuality?

EDIT

None... :/

But since it wont happen, so someone who dosent hate jews.

must of them do.

I do

Lysandor

10-21-2008, 10:31 PM

Are you suggesting something about his sexuality?

L2RushHour

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 10:32 PM

Are you suggesting something about his sexuality?

EDIT

I do

Yeh, you're a brainwashed idiot that hates jews, loves govs and cops...

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 10:34 PM

Yeh, you're a brainwashed idiot that hates jews, loves govs and cops...

And you're a whiney anarchist who cannot cope with the simplicities of life.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 10:35 PM

Oh pish posh. The GD would have already been past in the US without the god damn Raw Deal.

Why should the US have given a shit what happens in Asia, Europe, and Africa? As long as they traded with us it shouldn't matter.

National Security interests lol. Name a single country from WWII era to now that could actually force project on US soil. Don't worry, I'll wait.

sure...which oil producing countries are would NOT have been affected?

or are you unaware of the OSS study that was done at the end of the war which clearly stated what the rest of the centuries national security interests would revolve around (hint:oil)

now, i don't like to speculate, but if Germany and Japan had been unopposed by the US and it's manufacturing capabilities... their alliance could quite conceivable have changed many things

since the Germans are the ones who developed rockets, and our own missile programs were developed by the Penemunde scientists liberated after the war....jet aircraft, not to mention the Germans already experimenting with heavy water while if we had not been in the war...there would have been NO manhattan project

plenty more ugliness in the alternate reality you suggest...

but it's a moot point, and since we were only asked for ONE thing...and i had given several...i think the point is made

imo, like it or not, there are some things that a federal government is required for...many times it fucks shit up (usually at the behest of a lobbying interest with a large checkbook)

but when you are talking about the largest economy AND over 300 million people...not to mention nukes and trade agreements....well, it's a necessary "evil"...no matter that utopians might wish it otherwise

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 10:36 PM

National Security interests lol. Name a single country from WWII era to now that could actually force project on US soil. Don't worry, I'll wait.

One could say that the military dominance of the United States is a direct result of WWII. Meaning if the US hadn't gotten involved in the war, it might not have the same capabilities as it does now.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 10:38 PM

One could say that the military dominance of the United States is a direct result of WWII. Meaning if the US hadn't gotten involved in the war, it might not have the same capabilities as it does now.

lol...a bit pithier an answer than the one i just gave...but the sentiments are similar...

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 10:38 PM

And you're a whiney anarchist who cannot cope with the simplicities of life.

Where you see me whine?

I have my own mind, not like you, ew.. rat...

jordanleroux

10-21-2008, 10:40 PM

Where you see me whine?

I have my own mind, not like you, ew.. rat...

Did I ever state I was pro government?

Maybe you should grovel at the knees of your leader for a public education system. You need to develop your reading comprehension.

Matriel

10-21-2008, 10:40 PM

sure...which oil producing countries are would NOT have been affected?

Oh noes, we could have gotten off the internal combustion engine long before now. That would have been horrible.

or are you unaware of the OSS study that was done at the end of the war which clearly stated what the rest of the centuries national security interests would revolve around (hint:oil)

A study done by a bunch of people that had everything to gain by increasing their mission?

now, i don't like to speculate, but if Germany and Japan had been unopposed by the US and it's manufacturing capabilities... their alliance could quite conceivable have changed many things

Maybe. Some arguments say that they wouldn't have stopped the Russians regardless. And Japan couldn't even hold what they took in China long term.

since the Germans are the ones who developed rockets, and our own missile programs were developed by the Penemunde scientists liberated after the war....jet aircraft, not to mention the Germans already experimenting with heavy water while if we had not been in the war...there would have been NO manhattan project

Heavy water research started in 1934.

And last time I checked, jet aircraft nor rockets give a country the ability to force project.

plenty more ugliness in the alternate reality you suggest...

You mean America would have stayed true to her ideals. God forbid.

imo, like it or not, there are some things that a federal government is required for...many times it fucks shit up (usually at the behest of a lobbying interest with a large checkbook)

but when you are talking about the largest economy AND over 300 million people...not to mention nukes and trade agreements....well, it's a necessary "evil"...no matter that utopians might wish it otherwise

What is it required for? I have yet to see a single example of a good thing in this thread. Please provide one.

I love how governments have perpetuated the worst shit upon humanity but somehow people still by the myth that they are needed. Oh noes it would be genocide without governments. Except that so far in history genocide has happened because of governments.

Blackfire1128

10-21-2008, 10:41 PM

lol...a bit pithier an answer than the one i just gave...but the sentiments are similar...

Well you finished your answer while I was writing mine.....

Kurog

10-21-2008, 10:43 PM

Matriel for Dictator/president : P

iluhaftw

10-21-2008, 10:48 PM

Did I ever state I was pro government?

Maybe you should grovel at the knees of your leader for a public education system. You need to develop your reading comprehension.

yeh, you protect it. and you admit you love it.

"Maybe you should grovel at the knees of your leader for a public education system. You need to develop your reading comprehension"

What you wanna say by this? and my reading comprehension is good, dw.

Teutates

10-21-2008, 10:49 PM

Matriel for Dictator/president : P

And embrace your new third world country.

DocGonzo

10-21-2008, 10:51 PM

Oh noes, we could have gotten off the internal combustion engine long before now. That would have been horrible.

A study done by a bunch of people that had everything to gain by increasing their mission?

Maybe. Some arguments say that they wouldn't have stopped the Russians regardless. And Japan couldn't even hold what they took in China long term.

Heavy water research started in 1934.

And last time I checked, jet aircraft nor rockets give a country the ability to force project.

You mean America would have stayed true to her ideals. God forbid.

What is it required for? I have yet to see a single example of a good thing in this thread. Please provide one.

I love how governments have perpetuated the worst shit upon humanity but somehow people still by the myth that they are needed. Oh noes it would be genocide without governments. Except that so far in history genocide has happened because of governments.

so the EPA and NASA and FDA aren't enough for you...

missiles with nuclear warheads are not "force projection" by your standards? I ask because even you appear to agree that Germany had missiles and was working on nukes...we beat them to the latter due to a better united effort (by the government) by better people (Oppenheimer and crew)

i will stick to the idea that it was better for the U.S. and the world as a whole that we, and not Germany developed those technologies

but, as i stated...it appears we will just have to disagree..i refuse to ignore history and speculate too much on what might have been after the fact

our government is far form being Ideal in any way...but it's still a lot better than anything else so far, imo

and while i don't agree with your viewpoint, i have and will continue to defend your right to hold and espouse your opinion with all that i am capable of

your mileage may vary

Kurog

10-21-2008, 10:51 PM

And embrace your new third world country.

atleast it would be better then how it is now :ohno:

Matriel

10-21-2008, 11:02 PM

And embrace your new third world country.

No proof of that. Hell, even Somalia only improved under anarcho capitalism. Until statist theocrats tried to take over anyway.

so the EPA and NASA and FDA aren't enough for you...

Lol EPA. Look up who's the biggest polluter in America (hint: starts with an F, ends with an ED).

NASA is a big waste of money. And they haven't done anything worthwhile since what, 1969? With billions a year.

Already pointed out that the FDA is an ineffective organization that some could easily say causes more harm than good by delaying medicines, selling off to certain companies with bad medicines, etc.

missiles with nuclear warheads are not "force projection" by your standards? I ask because even you appear to agree that Germany had missiles and was working on nukes...we beat them to the latter due to a better united effort (by the government) by better people (Oppenheimer and crew)

Oppenheimer was born in America chief.

Force projection generally refers to expeditionary warfare, not nukes.
Germany's missile technology would probably have never gotten to the point that it was an ICBM before Russia steamrolled their ass. And even if it did decades later. What reason would Germany have for nuking us when we were a trading partner? As we were early in WWI before we took sides (thanks FDR, may you burn in hell).

I also thought we beat them to nukes because British trained Norwegian commandos blew up the Heavy Water plant.

i will stick to the idea that it was better for the U.S. and the world as a whole that we, and not Germany developed those technologies

Right. We're doing the world a huge favour being the world police.

but, as i stated...it appears we will just have to disagree..i refuse to ignore history and speculate too much on what might have been after the fact

Imo, you've done nothing but ignore history in this entire thread.

our government is far form being Ideal in any way...but it's still a lot better than anything else so far, imo

and while i don't agree with your viewpoint, i have and will continue to defend your right to hold and espouse your opinion with all that i am capable of

your mileage may vary

Yes, a government that has continually lied to its constitients. Even put one segment into concentration camps and dropped untold atrocities on people around the world. I say that less than ideal is the motherfucking understatement of the year, but I'm not brainwashed to believe we need some nebulous entity just because we're humans. Governments if they have provided any good benefits at all, sure as shit are at a net negative when it comes to human history and bad things being done to people.

Killuminati

10-21-2008, 11:16 PM

so a trade embargo is an act of war, and NOT an economic tool?

who knew...

might i refer you to some Japanese historians who wrote on this very topic?

Admiral Yamamoto might be a good place to start, especially since he was educated in the US, and was in charge of the Pearl Harbor assault...he blamed the Army high command for a poor imperialistic decision...not an oil embargo

there's others, but obviously agreement is not to be had...and some folks erroneous pre-conceptions about their Doctor are not only inaccurate, but uninformed and down right silly...

Lol, economic tool

So, an Oil embargo on Japan during their assaults on Manchuria would be an act of love by the US? An economic embargo is an act of war since its attempt to cause a country to be weakened in order to fight a weaker opponent. You also conveniently ignored what I said about the lend-lease act since this was also an effort to weaken the Axis power.

Fell

10-22-2008, 12:33 AM

hmmmm what big government has given us.

Government grants and subsidization accounts for or contributes to a VAST amount of scientific progress in all areas.

Federal grants allow infinitely more people to attend college. And funds a huge sum of the departments available at any given University.

Nuclear weapons and nuclear technology in general.

Government subsidiaries are the only thing that allows farming at a profit in a vast majority of the USA.

Standardized vaccinations that have saved 100's of millions of lives (rough guesstiamate).

Implementation of realized equality amongst race,gender and religion. And a work on progress on equality amongst sexual preference. (seems a pretty big one)

Military superiority of the USA granting us a huge amount of leverage to pursue our various and sometimes unethical/devious agendas.

Protection of civil liberties,enforcement of the law on a federal level. Standardized regulation of food products. Standardized requirements and regulation for just about any sector imaginable energy,medicine,labor,disease control,space exploration,national defense,technology,radiation emissions,seat belts,high ways,drinking water,pollution,waste disposal.

Regulates forestry and particular deforestation. Preserves vast swathes of land from industrialization and abuse via national parks and other reserved land.

And of course it wastes gazillions on idiocy like the War on Drugs. Infringes on civil liberties via illegal wire taping. Its been known to declare war on legal organizations that the current administration doesn't approve of. FBI and such during the communist fear mongering era and Vietnam debacles.

I dont think most people appreciate the true implications of what a unified and strong federal government is responsible for in their daily lives. Most states CANT EVEN SUBSIST on the income they generate independently and REQUIRE federal funds to even exist in a non third world manner. While not perfect is definitely makes some of the atrocities of yesteryear nonexistent.

Gloomrender

10-22-2008, 12:45 AM

Lol @ government worship. Sorry, but we enjoy that lifestyle in spite of government, not because of it.

lol, you have to use your stamps to get tastier food, dude. And have 2 more kids. You welfare noob.

Jezrith

10-22-2008, 12:53 AM

lol, you have to use your stamps to get tastier food, dude. And have 2 more kids. You welfare noob.

Aw hell! I'm doing it wrong!

Lysandor

10-22-2008, 01:07 AM

hmmmm what big government has given us.

I'd like to thank ForumFall and Senator Fell for showing up.

Government grants and subsidization accounts for or contributes to a VAST amount of scientific progress in all areas.

Compared to what? Charity Car Auctions?

Federal grants allow infinitely more people to attend college.

Not taking the money in the first place would do wonders for anyone's ability to afford college.

And funds a huge sum of the departments available at any given University.

Which ones?

Nuclear weapons and nuclear technology in general.

Small government could have done the same.

Government subsidiaries are the only thing that allows farming at a profit in a vast majority of the USA.

Government interference is the only reason farmers had trouble making money in the first place. That and bad decision making. The government has no business in the world of business.

Standardized vaccinations that have saved 100's of millions of lives (rough guesstiamate).

Big government did more to hinder this than it did to help it.

Implementation of realized equality amongst race,gender and religion. And a work on progress on equality amongst sexual preference. (seems a pretty big one)

Equality can't be legislated, executed, nor judged. And big government certainly had little to do with it.

Military superiority of the USA granting us a huge amount of leverage to pursue our various and sometimes unethical/devious agendas.

You consider that a good thing?

Protection of civil liberties

Negative.

,enforcement of the law on a federal level.

Was possible anyway.

Standardized regulation of food products.

Standardized weakness of the food supply as well.

Standardized requirements and regulation for just about any sector imaginable energy,medicine,labor,disease control,space exploration,national defense,technology,radiation emissions,seat belts,high ways,drinking water,pollution,waste disposal.

Which is something that states should be doing for the most part, the federal government should have little business in day to day life.

Regulates forestry and particular deforestation.

Not really part of big government. And it is another thing states should be asserting.

Preserves vast swathes of land from industrialization and abuse via national parks and other reserved land.

Big government isn't necessary for that.

And of course it wastes gazillions on idiocy like the War on Drugs. Infringes on civil liberties via illegal wire taping. Its been known to declare war on legal organizations that the current administration doesn't approve of. FBI and such during the communist fear mongering era and Vietnam debacles.

I dont think most people appreciate the true implications of what a unified and strong federal government is responsible for in their daily lives. Most states CANT EVEN SUBSIST on the income they generate independently and REQUIRE federal funds to even exist in a non third world manner. While not perfect is definitely makes some of the atrocities of yesteryear nonexistent.

Quite right.

Kusghuul

10-22-2008, 01:09 AM

the revoloution

civil war (and that funky Amendment)

Wait, what?

Fell

10-22-2008, 01:32 AM

Lots of unsupported stuff

I cant contest vague claims of denial with no support. Your entire opinion seems to be "But if it didnt exist stuff would work anyways!" which is a position you would have to support. Since those types of standardized regulations DONT exist in nations without a strong central government.

So i can only address the the questions that have some form of context.

Which ones?

Every University in the US receives some level of federal funding.

Compared to what? Charity Car Auctions?

Compared to no funding.... Since i cant attest to the fictional level of funding that would be provided in a fictional reality.

Not taking the money in the first place would do wonders for anyone's ability to afford college.

You have to substantiate assertions to make them valid. For some reason im willing to bet that public horde wouldn't pick up the slack out of the goodness of their heart. Thats kinda the entire logic of federal taxes.

MOST PEOPLE DONT WANT TO PAY FOR MOST THINGS THAT ARE ESSENTIAL.

Small government could have done the same.
Small government could have initiated a nation wide (and even international in some aspects) pooling of resources and minds for something like the Manhattan project? I think you dont understand the deffinition of "small government". Or are using it in a fashion im unaware of.

Negative.

The entire notion of uniform Civil Liberties is "big government" :lmao:

Government interference is the only reason farmers had trouble making money in the first place. That and bad decision making. The government has no business in the world of business.

Unsubstantiated drivel. I deal with actualities not fictional realities that conform to my personal opinion.

Big government did more to hinder this than it did to help it.

Big government is the only way a nation wide requirement for vaccinations can be made. Its not even possible without big government by deffinition.

Equality can't be legislated, executed, nor judged. And big government certainly had little to do with it.

Strange since inequality can be legislated,executed and judged. And was done so for a majority of USA history. I think you need to research "Jim Crow laws" "history of the right to vote in the US" and "Slavery" Once again reality trumps opinion.

You consider that a good thing?

Good/bad wasn't a requirement in the original question. I don't need to perceive history and reality through a lens of subjective morality. At least for this conversation.

None of the rest of your questions are coherent enough to address individually. The topic isn't what can big government accomplish that a federalist government cant. Its what HAS in REALITY Big government provided.

In a fictional reality a federalist nation could in theory accomplish anything "Big Government" can. Sadly Borg like agreement and implementation of nation wide mandates doesn't appear to exist nor work so well.

Lindorn

10-22-2008, 01:44 AM

Unsubstantiated drivel. I deal with actualities not fictional realities that conform to my personal opinion.

How's this for unsubstantiated drivel: In the 1970's the government changed around it's farm subsidy program to pay corn farmers for any excess corn they harvested. As a result in the midwest corn farming districts most small time farmers are going out of business. There was actually a concert by a few famous country western figureheads a few weeks back to raise money for "family farms". Because of this shortsighted government intervention farms are being absorbed into larger farms and "corporatized" into high yield, high volume farms that provide as much crop as can possibly be harvested. Farms that have been literally owned and operated by small groups of people for hundreds of years are getting choked out in lieu of these behemoths.

Strange since inequality can be legislated,executed and judged. And was done so for a majority of USA history. I think you need to research "Jim Crow laws" "history of the right to vote in the US" and "Slavery" Once again reality trumps opinion.

And what about moving past shortsighted racist issues and moving on to the real disparity in our world today; class inequality. The reason black youth are on the streets mugging people and shooting people in south central isn't because black people are disposed to crime, it's because the lower class is disposed to crime. So what is your big idea on how to legislate past economic inequality? You think big government can eliminate the lower class?

As you so arrogantly put it "I deal with actualities not fictional realities that conform to my personal opinion."

Fell

10-22-2008, 01:58 AM

You kind of seem to be forgetting that without federal intervention in the 1930's onward small scale farming wouldn't have even EXISTED into 1970....

You kind of need a wider base of knowledge and perspective to understand the issue.

research....Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002,CCC,Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933/1949.

Most of these actions became REQUIRED due to the circumstances surrounding the great depression. Especially in regards to farming.

The subsidization of excess production is used mostly for export in humanitarian needs....

Small time operations being unable to complete with Big Business is not a product of Big Government. Without Big Government private farming wouldn't have been existent the passed 6 decades.

And what about moving past shortsighted racist issues and moving on to the real disparity in our world today; class inequality. The reason black youth are on the streets mugging people and shooting people in south central isn't because black people are disposed to crime, it's because the lower class is disposed to crime. So what is your big idea on how to legislate past economic inequality? You think big government can eliminate the lower class?

So you completely ignore the fact your assertion was 100% incorrect as i demonstrated and retort with something completely irrelevent? shocking!

empirical

10-22-2008, 02:03 AM

Name ONE good thing accomplished by big federal government.

Solved who killed Laura Palmer.

ejnomad07

10-22-2008, 02:05 AM

This thread. Without it. This would never be here.

Lindorn

10-22-2008, 02:10 AM

You kind of seem to be forgetting that without federal intervention in the 1930's onward small scale farming wouldn't have even EXISTED into 1970....

You kind of need a wider base of knowledge and perspective to understand the issue.

Backpedal for the win! I'm aware of history and don't need a lecture, so don't ride the ad hominem button because you will get pwnt. Let's talk issues here. Why would small scale farming not have existed to the point of 1970 without federal intervention...? Because you say so? Are you referring to the depression? If so, federal intervention into our economy CAUSED the great depression. Are you referring to mass sell offs and price deflation/inflation? Whoops. Once again big government to thank for that shit.

research....Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002,CCC,Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933/1949.

Most of these actions became REQUIRED due to the circumstances surrounding the great depression. Especially in regards to farming.

And I can explain to you exactly how the large federal government sold our souls to U.S banking interests and caused the great depression.

The subsidization of excess production is used mostly for export in humanitarian needs....

ErrrRRRR...wrong. The reason those crops are used for foreign aid IS BECAUSE they are government subsidized. It benefits the companies that produce the corn crops. So Americans get taxed not once but twice on foreign aid.

The subsidization of excess crops is used because the government figures that supported this legislation in the 1970's had no foresight and just thought "it's pretty stupid to pay people NOT to grow", so "lets pay people to grow". Now that literally our entire fucking food sector economy is dependant upon corn products (look it up), the subsidies are an immovable object in our economy.

Now it's clear that you are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Beorg

10-22-2008, 02:14 AM

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=75653

In light of this retardedness I want to follow the same logical path that this idiot used.

I didn't come here to post about the topic of whatever this thread is about, but to laugh at Silverhand's signature again. :lmao:

Justinian

10-22-2008, 02:16 AM

Backpedal for the win! I'm aware of history and don't need a lecture, so don't ride the ad hominem button because you will get pwnt. Let's talk issues here. Why would small scale farming not have existed to the point of 1970 without federal intervention...? Because you say so? Are you referring to the depression? If so, federal intervention into our economy CAUSED the great depression. Are you referring to mass sell offs and price deflation/inflation? Whoops. Once again big government to thank for that shit.

And I can explain to you exactly how the large federal government sold our souls to U.S banking interests and caused the great depression.

ErrrRRRR...wrong. The reason those crops are used for foreign aid IS BECAUSE they are government subsidized. It benefits the companies that produce the corn crops. So Americans get taxed not once but twice on foreign aid.

The subsidization of excess crops is used because the government figures that supported this legislation in the 1970's had no foresight and just thought "it's pretty stupid to pay people NOT to grow", so "lets pay people to grow". Now that literally our entire fucking food sector economy is dependant upon corn products (look it up), the subsidies are an immovable object in our economy.

Now it's clear that you are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about.

I'm beginning to think the guy is a troll. just leave it alone for your own sake.

Fell

10-22-2008, 02:26 AM

Backpedal for the win! I'm aware of history and don't need a lecture, so don't ride the ad hominem.

Like most of the terms you throw about i dont believe you understand what "ad hominem" means. Governement intervention into farming allowed its existence during and after the depression. So while i wont really try to argue the Macrocosm of unsupported reality in "whose at fault" I can only assert the facts of the situation. Not unsupported positions based on fantasy and irrelevency as they are revealed to be off topic and false.

And I can explain to you exactly how the large federal government sold our souls to U.S banking interests and caused the great depression.

Neato, but irrelevent and off topic...sorry.:rolleyes:

ErrrRRRR...wrong. The reason those crops are used for foreign aid IS BECAUSE they are government subsidized. It benefits the companies that produce the corn crops. So Americans get taxed not once but twice on foreign aid.

hahahaha oh hahahaha. Without the creation and intervention of the CCC small time farming operations would have been unable to modernize with mechanical farming equipment. Would have gone bankrupt due to market fluctuations. And would have ceased to exist decades before 1970.

The Government had to intervene for the modernization and continual existence of farming to exist. This is not opinion this is easily researchable fact.

Yes the food donated to humanitarian aid is because of government subsidized commodities. And guess what? Those commodities HAVE TO BE SUBSIDIZED TO MAINTAIN AGRICULTURE IN THE US. Thats why they became subsidized in the first place. Your concept of linear time and cause-effect relationships seems to be a bit askew.

The subsidization of excess crops is used because the government figures that supported this legislation in the 1970's had no foresight and just thought "it's pretty stupid to pay people NOT to grow", so "lets pay people to grow". Now that literally our entire fucking food sector economy is dependant upon corn products (look it up), the subsidies are an immovable object in our economy

The "paying farmers not to grow" was to maintain a somewhat stable market for commodities in lieu of the great depression. It also had the benefit of allow small time operations to actually be able to compete against large scale corporate farming that would have a complete monopoly on farming just based on it ability to devalue the commodity to the point all small scale farming CEASED TO EXIST. Of course small scale farming would have already died if not for the intervention of the CCC in the first place....:lmao:

Now it's clear that you are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes that sure is what has become readily apparent. Please change the topic once again to obfuscate the many errors i have already taken the time to correct you on.

Lindorn

10-22-2008, 02:30 AM

Like most of the terms you throw about i dont believe you understand what "ad hominem" means.

An attack on my character unrelated to the current discussion. Nice try. Well We've reached a crossroads here. You haven't addressed a single thing I've said and are basically looking for any possible avenue you can attack me from. You fail pretty hard here. Until you address the points I made and explain to me why they are wrong, you are on quicksand.

Krylas

10-22-2008, 02:34 AM

A system of roads?

Fell

10-22-2008, 02:35 AM

An attack on my character unrelated to the current discussion. Nice try. Well We've reached a crossroads here. You haven't addressed a single thing I've said and are basically looking for any possible avenue you can attack me from. You fail pretty hard here. Until you address the points I made and explain to me why they are wrong, you are on quicksand.

Well lets see i made a list of things Big Government had provided. You retorted (sorta). I responded debunking and invalidating every single assertion you made. You try to change the topic. I destroy that venue of conversation. You change the topic once again. I respond. You now surrender.

Yep conversation complete thanks for playing. :lmao:

PS: I cant recall attacking your character. Besides pointing out the deficiencies in your arguement and base of knowledge. That is pertinent to the discussion and not a "to the man" arguementation.

Lindorn

10-22-2008, 02:42 AM

I responded debunking and invalidating every single assertion you made.

I don't remember that part. You must live in an alternate reality. Nothing you have said has done anything of the sort. You know you remind me a lot of Skree. You seem to think just because you say things that it makes them valid. I don't even ask for links or proof for fucks sake, just for supporting evidence. You haven't even managed to provide that other than your repeated assertion that government has in some sort of cause/effect relationship caused things to stay "good".

You kind of need a wider base of knowledge and perspective to understand the issue.

That's an indirect attack on me personally. It's funny really how you new guys just launch a salvo of strawman bullshit in hopes of overwhelming your opponent. I don't even have the patience or time to invest sifting through all of the bullshit.

Someone was asking in another thread why a lot of the veterans don't post much anymore. Here is why I don't.

Signus

10-22-2008, 02:43 AM

the revoloution

nasa

civil war (and that funky Amendment)

FDA

the fucking Dept of Defense

those are ALL products of the US government, please think before typing

What part of BIG did you miss?

Fell

10-22-2008, 02:48 AM

Someone was asking in another thread why a lot of the veterans don't post much anymore. Here is why I don't.

Because you are unable to support your assertions so you don't post anymore? And AGAIN you use a term you obviously don't understand "strawman". Where exactly have i created a strawman arguement?! You cant just throw random words around and expect them to fly when they make no sense in their usage or context.

Where you ignored me refuting every single point you made my first response. You know the part where i dissected every refutation you offered. Asked you to research Jim Crow,slavery,history of voting. Ya that entire post. Before you tried to change the subject and back peddle away from your refuted assertions. You know the part after you tried to refute me. So i made a point by point list describing why you are incorrect. Just gotta scroll up hun! :lmao:

Justinian

10-22-2008, 02:49 AM

Because you are unable to support your assertions so you don't post anymore? And AGAIN you use a term you obviously don't understand "strawman". Where exactly have i created a strawman arguement?! You cant just throw random words around and expect them to fly when they make no sense in their usage or context.

Where you ignored me refuting every single point you made would be the my first response. Before you tried to change the subject and back peddle away from your refuted assertions. You know the part after you tried to refute me. So i made a point by point list describing why you are incorrect. Just gotta scroll up hun! :lmao:

here's essentially what you just said:

eat a dick, faggot! :lmao:

Fell

10-22-2008, 02:53 AM

here's essentially what you just said:

eat a dick, faggot! :lmao:

I can only make references to how he has repeatedly changed the topic and out right ignored the refutation i have provided after he refuses to discuss the topic. I think its a rather appropriate response don't you? ;)

I really dont think that equates to "eat a dick faggot" i even ignored his personal slander. I am a saint!

Paradiso

10-22-2008, 02:59 AM

CAPITALISM!

Septus

10-22-2008, 03:09 AM

ARPANET, world wide web + internet along with much of its backbone, interstate highway system, balanced commerce (as opposed to states fucking each other economically via taxes + tariffs), consistent standards (whether it be safety or any other. What this means is one state can't decide to allow child labor to get a boost in industrial output; another state can't decide to ban a product simply to spite another state; etc. This happened all the time in a confederated system).

I figure I'll let ppl respond to that before putting up a wall of text.

rockyraccoon

10-22-2008, 03:11 AM

big government set up the perfect conditions for the rise of barack obama!

Skree

10-22-2008, 05:16 AM

You know you remind me a lot of Skree. You seem to think just because you say things that it makes them valid.SO glad you opened this door again.:)

Originally Posted by Skree http://forums.darkfallonline.com/images-dfstyle/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1831725#post1831725)
Come on Doc your too smart to go mixing up Republican with Conservative.Originally Posted by Lindorn http://forums.darkfallonline.com/images-dfstyle/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1833512#post1833512)
Both terms are completely subjective and can be defined specifically by each individual.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference...try/republican (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/republican)

NOUN:
One who favors a republic as the best form of government.
Republican A member of the Republican Party of the United States.
As Lindorn knows #2 was the context involved. Completely subjective ?
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/conservative (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/conservative)

NOUN:
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic A preservative agent or principle
Definatly subjective.
You seem to think just because you say things that it makes them valid.There is a condition known as Neurotic Projection. You might want to have that looked at.Neurotic projection is perceiving others as operating in ways one unconsciously finds objectionable in yourself. http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm (http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm)

Lindorn sems to think just because he says things that makes them valid. I even provide linked proof for fucks sake, just for supporting evidence.:lmao:

Neurotic Projection FTW :ohno:

Skree

Byggin

10-22-2008, 05:45 AM

the quality of life we enjoy on a daily basis.

you being allowed to GIVE a hummer.

fixed

Matriel

10-22-2008, 08:32 AM

A system of roads?

Too bad they don't work for shit.

ARPANET, world wide web + internet along with much of its backbone, interstate highway system, balanced commerce (as opposed to states fucking each other economically via taxes + tariffs), consistent standards (whether it be safety or any other. What this means is one state can't decide to allow child labor to get a boost in industrial output; another state can't decide to ban a product simply to spite another state; etc. This happened all the time in a confederated system).

I figure I'll let ppl respond to that before putting up a wall of text.

Arpanet was actually bidded out to a private company to be completed.

The backbone of the Internet was also almost exclusively done by private measures and is definitely ran by private interests now. Which is why it works so damn well.

The interstate highway system basically fucked local production in the US and led the way for cheap shitty garbage from China to be at every Walmart. Good job Eisenhower.

Oh noes child labour. God forbid parents do their job. We obviously need legislation to fix it because workers have never banded together and fixed issues. :rolleyes:

Lindorn

10-22-2008, 09:28 AM

SO glad you opened this door again.:)

http://education.yahoo.com/reference...try/republican (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/republican)

NOUN:
One who favors a republic as the best form of government.
Republican A member of the Republican Party of the United States.
As Lindorn knows #2 was the context involved. Completely subjective ?
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/conservative (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/conservative)

NOUN:
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic A preservative agent or principle
Definatly subjective.
There is a condition known as Neurotic Projection. You might want to have that looked at. http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm (http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm)

Lindorn sems to think just because he says things that makes them valid. I even provide linked proof for fucks sake, just for supporting evidence.:lmao:

Neurotic Projection FTW :ohno:

Skree

So because you found both terms in the dictionary it makes them completely objective? So by your definition of objective and subjective, there is literally no such thing as subjective since every term can be found in the dictionary.

Then you go on to claim that I have mental issues based on the previous assertion. Your girlfriend up there wanted to know what a strawman argument was; here it is. With both of your talents for misrepresentation I have no doubt that you can rule OT as king and queen for a thousand generations.

Septus

10-22-2008, 10:04 AM

Arpanet was actually bidded out to a private company to be completed.

Yes but much of the work was done with public funding.

The backbone of the Internet was also almost exclusively done by private measures and is definitely ran by private interests now. Which is why it works so damn well.

Uhm, I don't know where you got your stats, but the initial construction of the backbone used a LOT of public funding.

Hell even if we're talking about the telephone and AT&T, how hard would that have been if AT&T had to haggle and convince every fucking state?

The interstate highway system basically fucked local production in the US and led the way for cheap shitty garbage from China to be at every Walmart. Good job Eisenhower.

You're saying highways weren't a good thing? That's gotta be one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. You're blaming waning US production on a good infrastructure? rofl.

Oh noes child labour. God forbid parents do their job. We obviously need legislation to fix it because workers have never banded together and fixed issues. :rolleyes:

You've got to be the most brainwashed monkey around. That was *one example* of standards. Basically, if you don't have these federal standards, you have inter-state politics. For example, "oh shiz we're not making enough monies, let's put a tariff on imports from Texas." Texas goes "wtf fuck you California, we'll jack up export costs on our oil. GG QQ MOAR"

Just horrible - just like it is right now with different countries operating on different standards and fucking each other over. Except all within one country (supposedly. In reality it'd be like the fucking Greek city-states. Might as well be different countries).

jonyak

10-22-2008, 01:52 PM

Too bad they don't work for shit.

they work better than no roads.

DR.NUMBERS

10-22-2008, 01:55 PM

They made the trains run on time!

Wait, that was Mussolini wasn't it?

Silverhandorder

10-22-2008, 02:42 PM

they work better than no roads.

Because if there is no bloated gov't no roads will ever get made.

Forgin

10-22-2008, 02:52 PM

they attacked the muslims in iraq!

Matriel

10-22-2008, 03:04 PM

Yes but much of the work was done with public funding.

It was started by a public funding pool. Wasn't finished with it iirc, and damn sure wasn't done by government peeps.

Uhm, I don't know where you got your stats, but the initial construction of the backbone used a LOT of public funding.

Haha, are you talking about NSFNET and trying to call it the backbone of the Internet? Or are you referring to the few overseas links that the military decided to share later on? The Internet as we know it was not built upon public money by any means. And if we had waited on the Fed to build the motherfucker, we'd still be calling T1's fast.

Hell even if we're talking about the telephone and AT&T, how hard would that have been if AT&T had to haggle and convince every fucking state?

Well, the telephone isn't related at all to the Internet, but I imagine it would have went a lot better as usually when shit is stuck at the Federal blanket level it gets slowed down with a lot of needless bullshit.

You're saying highways weren't a good thing? That's gotta be one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. You're blaming waning US production on a good infrastructure? rofl.

Yes, I don't think the Interstate system did good things for this country. It paved the way for stupid shit like fruit travelling 1500 miles before it gets to the shelf at the nearest grocery store for you.

The ability to truck shit anywhere has helped to pave the way for outsourced production utilizing cheap foreign labour. Not to mention all the businesses on old US highways that were fucked with the creation of the new Interstate roads.

You've got to be the most brainwashed monkey around. That was *one example* of standards. Basically, if you don't have these federal standards, you have inter-state politics. For example, "oh shiz we're not making enough monies, let's put a tariff on imports from Texas." Texas goes "wtf fuck you California, we'll jack up export costs on our oil. GG QQ MOAR"

That's a stupid example for 2 reasons.
1) Why does it matter if they do have a trade war?
2) Both states ratified into the US Constitution which takes away their ability to do this. Really stupid example.

Just horrible - just like it is right now with different countries operating on different standards and fucking each other over. Except all within one country (supposedly. In reality it'd be like the fucking Greek city-states. Might as well be different countries).

You mean how the country was set up to be more or less. Zomg, the horror. It only brought us prosperity from 1792 - 1860 or so.

they work better than no roads.

Evidently you haven't seen traffic in Lexington, Kentucky or Oahu, Hawaii.

jonyak

10-22-2008, 03:13 PM

Evidently you haven't seen traffic in Lexington, Kentucky or Oahu, Hawaii.

No I haven't, but I have driven in montreal quite a bit, and LA, and they are insane.

Skree

10-22-2008, 04:59 PM

So because you found both terms in the dictionary it makes them completely objective?Stay in school you are not ready for adult conversation yet.:rolleyes:So by your definition of objective and subjective, there is literally no such thing as subjective since every term can be found in the dictionary.NOUN:
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic A preservative agent or principle
Definatly subjective.Would like me to bring at least 2 more examples from the original thread where I said conservative IS subjective by it's very definition ? :lmao:Then you go on to claim that I have mental issues based on the previous assertion.Based on what you posted. Not on any assertion. Strawman much ?:sly:

You just demonstrated it again btw.:lmao: Thank you for 1 more opening to illustrate.Originally Posted by Lindorn http://forums.darkfallonline.com/images-dfstyle/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1843834#post1843834)
It's funny really how you new guys just launch a salvo of strawman bullshit in hopes of overwhelming your opponent.I show beyond any reasonable doubt that this statement: "Both terms are completely subjective and can be defined specifically by each individual." as completely false. Instead of just manning up and admiting that BOTH terms are, in fact, not subjective, you try to switch the discussion to an argument over my definitions of objective and subjective (as if I just made up definitions like you seem to want to, bullshit much ?). A perfect example of "strawman".:idea: Has the light gone on for you yet ?Neurotic projection is perceiving others as operating in ways one unconsciously finds objectionable in yourself.You do exactly what you accuse others of doing.Your girlfriend up there wanted to know what a strawman argument was; here it is.Thank you for providing a perfect example.:D
With both of your talents for misrepresentation I have no doubt that you can rule OT as king and queen for a thousand generations.The irony is so thick.:lmao:

If you will notice, once again, I didn't start this with you. I only say that because it's hard to tell what you are aware of and what you are not. It seems self-awareness has completely escaped you.

All of this because you said something completly asinine, got called on it, and you can't man up and just admit it.

Amazing:p

Skree