Blackwater: World Security?

[Crying Hyena]

Does that bother anyone? http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/10/blackwater-well.html

[IthroZada]

I see these guys eventually getting to powerful for our own good

[Forgivance]

Nope, they are highly professional and skilled mercenaries. I think it's nice that they are willing to put something in those waters since many countries have lost something to pirates over the last decade plus. Of course, they'll need a cut...but i bet their cut is going to be less that the amount that would be stolen.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Does that bother anyone? http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/10/blackwater-well.html

Seems like a good place for them to be kept busy, not alot of gray area in whether a ship is trying to pirate another ship.

[Damwa]

I think that they are going to end up biting off more than they can chew.. and then they are going to go to the US government and whine about it.

Just an opinion.

[Carl Ragadamn]

I think that they are going to end up biting off more than they can chew.. and then they are going to go to the US government and whine about it.

Just an opinion.

And then the US will sell them 4 battleships.

[Spinewire]

Hello kitty anti pirate mercs?

I smell copy right infringement.... wonder if hello kitty online would pay me a finders fee for reporting that to them?

[Damwa]

And then the US will sell them 4 battleships.

That is probably not entirely off the mark; I don't think that this pirating situation is going to be the "back breaker" for them, though. If they keep expanding they are just bound to get into some bad shit - it has happened to (most) every militarily active nation, and they don't have the advantage of a large resource pool (in terms of manpower), nor an emotive patriotic motivation to "give your life for Blackwater".

[DocGonzo]

arrRRRrrrgGGGGhHHHhhh

these bastards and KBR, Bectel, Sandline and all the rest of the mercenary murderous fucktards must definitely be stopped, imo

i've been worried about the ramifications of these types of organizations in contemporary history since those ex-South African bastards started Executive Outcomes after apartheid ended and they got fired

:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

here's the thing...they are fucking MERCENARIES!

they are NOT interested in solving any problem, just prolonging it to maximize profits

let that sink in, and think of the shitstorm that can be caused (if you first think of the "100 year war" and "permanent bases" in Iraq, give yourself a cookie)

final bit...the second largest military force in Iraq is?

private military contractors, they have just a few thousand less than the 140k U.S. troops.... the Brits...the next largest force...have less than 10k

nuff said?

[Killuminati]

Hopefully blackwater will continue to do some ethnic cleansing for us.

[Lethn]

When I look at that ship I am disturbingly reminded of Black Lagoon, frankly I think we are entering an age where the line between law and order is just going to be so obscured no one will give a fuck anymore.

[Spinewire]

why have wired put hello kitty in there logo?


http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/09/mac500x312.jpg
also lol at their ship....

[Jackhowitzer]

They're a lil too trigger happy IMO. Oh well, lol maybe there 144 foot boat can save the Somalis "scoffs". Also, unless they have a fleet of those ships, they're fucked haha, pirate zerg>Blackwaters little canoe.

[IthroZada]

African pirates use rocket launchers to attack ships, I see BlackWater having a bad day when they meet 3 pirate ships on the water

[Wickfield]

I think that they are going to end up biting off more than they can chew.. and then they are going to go to the US government and whine about it.

Just an opinion.

And then they're all going to get killed and go off the record for unknown reasons.

[stalwart]

why is this bad? the american revolution was fought by mercenaries.

[DocGonzo]

why is this bad? the american revolution was fought by mercenaries.

ummm...those were the Hessians, and we fought against them...

[Yamamoto]

This is badass. Now all we need is a nanotechnology system to enhance their abilities and ensure their loyalty. Then we'll be good to go. We can call it... Sons of the Patriots.

[grateful_dead]

when the arrive in africa, they should change their name to shitwater

[ejnomad07]

Does that bother anyone? http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/10/blackwater-well.html

I bet that job gets the chicks....;)

[Scully]

ummm...those were the Hessians, and we fought against them...

Heh, when I hear Hessian I think of this: http://www.movievillains.com/images/headless.jpg

[Razel]

there is nothing...... right about blackwater

[Lictor]

Seems like a good place for them to be kept busy, not alot of gray area in whether a ship is trying to pirate another ship.

True.

there is nothing...... right about blackwater

...but that is also true.

[stalwart]

ummm...those were the Hessians, and we fought against them...

huh? according to his own letters (the ones not destroyed by his wife), washington regarded town militia as folks that would flake out after a few months, not hold the line, and generally had bad attitudes. this is expected, as they most had families and other responsibilities.

it wasn't a volunteer army, that's for sure. only when they started handing out colonial scrip did folks join. as mercenaries.

[Skree]

there is nothing...... right about blackwaterEspecially when the US government deploys them inside the US borders.

They deployed in New Orleans after Katrina.

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the Corporate States of America..."

Skree

[IthroZada]

Especially when the US government deploys them inside the US borders.

They deployed in New Orleans after Katrina.

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the Corporate States of America..."

Skree

watch Mutant Chronicles, it is the future of the world, except steampunk

[Tyler]

blackwater isn't any worse than the american military, it's just more honest. most troops have this brainwashed mentality of "patriotism" when in reality they're jut working for money like anyone else. money and a trip to college, and whatever other "perks" come with slaughtering 3rd world peeps with 0tech lvs.

blackwater kill and intimidate for money, straight up. i respect their honesty, it's just an example of the further privatization of "government" responsibilities.

soon there will be no countries, just corporations and companies, Starbucks stellarsphere, McUniverse. kinda like eve, after they release space travel tech to the corps.

[Skree]

blackwater isn't any worse than the american military, it's just more honest. most troops have this brainwashed mentality of "patriotism" when in reality they're jut working for money like anyone else. money and a trip to college, and whatever other "perks" come with slaughtering 3rd world peeps with 0tech lvs.

blackwater kill and intimidate for money, straight up. i respect their honesty, it's just an example of the further privatization of "government" responsibilities.

soon there will be no countries, just corporations and companies, Starbucks stellarsphere, McUniverse. kinda like eve, after they release space travel tech to the corps.Yes, privatization is a sure path to Global Corporate Government.

If anyone thinks this is a "conspiracy theory" I have some reading you can do for yourself.

Several inferences can be drawn from Shorrock’s shocking exposé. One is that if a foreign espionage service wanted to penetrate American military and governmental secrets, its easiest path would not be to gain access to any official U.S. agencies, but simply to get its agents jobs at any of the large intelligence-oriented private companies on which the government has become remarkably dependent.

These include Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC), with headquarters in San Diego, California, which typically pays its 42,000 employees higher salaries than if they worked at similar jobs in the government; Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the nation’s oldest intelligence and clandestine-operations contractors, which, until January 2007, was the employer of Mike McConnell, the current director of national intelligence and the first private contractor to be named to lead the entire intelligence community; and CACI International, which, under two contracts for “information technology services,” ended up supplying some two dozen interrogators to the Army at Iraq’s already infamous Abu Ghraib prison in 2003.

According to Major General Anthony Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib torture and abuse scandal, four of CACI’s interrogators were “either directly or indirectly responsible” for torturing prisoners. (Shorrock, p. 281) http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/military/2008/0728complex.htm

There is a lot of information at that link if you take the time to read it. Even if you do not agree with all the conclusions the information is pretty eye opening.

Skree

[Toilet]

Is it only me who finds it ironic that Blackwater wants to fight blacks on water?

[Crying Hyena]

Is it only me who finds it ironic that Blackwater wants to fight blacks on water?

Lol, never thought about that.

[Skree]

Is it only me who finds it ironic that Blackwater wants to fight blacks on water?irony of the highest order.

Skree

[Eclipso]

doc got it right IMO ... these people are after money and prolonging the situation ..
If you are going to pay millions to companies like blackwater and sandline etc etc, why not just pay the pirates not to attack shipping interests?

[Crying Hyena]

doc got it right IMO ... these people are after money and prolonging the situation ..
If you are going to pay millions to companies like blackwater and sandline etc etc, why not just pay the pirates not to attack shipping interests?

That would be called funding terrorism... which we already do but in our case when we do it we change their names to freedom fighters until they piss us off. The PKK is a great example.

[Eclipso]

That would be called funding terrorism... which we already do but in our case when we do it we change their names to freedom fighters until they piss us off. The PKK is a great example.

funding terrorisim how?

but technically you do it in paying blackwater. they play for money and nothing else.

The pirates around the somali coast play for money and nothing else, they are not religious fanatics or anything. they hijack ships, demand ransom.

If they are paid then they release the ship and crew, as in yesterday with that Korean ship i can't remember the name of....

end of story as far as they are concerned.

Blackwater would be paid to stop them from doing so, nothing more nothing less. Just purely for money .

how is that funding terrorisim or in anyway connected with it?

[Atua]

They are going to get a nice surprise when their 100 foot boat is surrounded by rpg launching pirates. Maybe someone told them that pirates in Africa still use only swords.

[Toilet]

They are going to get a nice surprise when their 100 foot boat is surrounded by rpg launching pirates. Maybe someone told them that pirates in Africa still use only swords.

They could install ALMD* on it.


*Automatic Laser Missile Defence

[Eclipso]

They are going to get a nice surprise when their 100 foot boat is surrounded by rpg launching pirates. Maybe someone told them that pirates in Africa still use only swords.
that ship may not be painted navy gray but i am damn sure it would be as equiped like any navy vessel.

if they where on duty, nothing in the surrounding area could make it within a few miles without being noticed and curbstomped.

[Razel]

Nope, they are highly professional and skilled mercenaries. I think it's nice that they are willing to put something in those waters since many countries have lost something to pirates over the last decade plus. Of course, they'll need a cut...but i bet their cut is going to be less that the amount that would be stolen.

yea they are highly skilled and professional alrighty, they make no distinction between civilian, women, kids or enemies. They don't have any rules of engagement whatsoever.... and noone to answer to.

the problem with blackwater and the 40 some odd private...... corps like them is that there will be many PRIVATE wars in the future. Many will die and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Wars for profit will be fun, unless of course you're the one they are shooting at.

[Crying Hyena]

funding terrorisim how?

but technically you do it in paying blackwater. they play for money and nothing else.

The pirates around the somali coast play for money and nothing else, they are not religious fanatics or anything. they hijack ships, demand ransom.

If they are paid then they release the ship and crew, as in yesterday with that Korean ship i can't remember the name of....

end of story as far as they are concerned.

Blackwater would be paid to stop them from doing so, nothing more nothing less. Just purely for money .

how is that funding terrorisim or in anyway connected with it?


In today's political climate, anything is terrorism if it goes against U.S. will. I'm just running to the extreme to state a point.

[Eclipso]

In today's political climate, anything is terrorism if it goes against U.S. will. I'm just running to the extreme to state a point.

that would make 6.2 out of 6.5 billion people terrorists, being that we all follow different agendas :p

[Skree]

that would make 6.2 out of 6.5 billion people terrorists, being that we all follow different agendas :pNow you are catching on ! :idea:

Skree

[DocGonzo]

huh? according to his own letters (the ones not destroyed by his wife), washington regarded town militia as folks that would flake out after a few months, not hold the line, and generally had bad attitudes. this is expected, as they most had families and other responsibilities.

it wasn't a volunteer army, that's for sure. only when they started handing out colonial scrip did folks join. as mercenaries.

you really need to learn the difference between a militia (folks from a place, fighting for the place), professional soldiers in their own country of origin (Washington's troops) and mercenaries who are ONLY in it for the money...coming from a foreign land with no dog in the fight (Hessians)

but, good that you are thinking about it, and curious...

[Youknowho]

You people need to read Blackwater: The Rise of The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill

If your a decent individual with any ability to empathize this book will make your stomach turn. I couldn't stop reading because it was so damn interesting, but sometimes I had to stop because it made me feel helpless to all the wrong this company has done, as well as the effect extreme privatization of military jobs ever wonder why this war is so damn expensive? "Cost-Plus" contracts and private companies defrauding American tax payers. Hiring soldiers and officers from Pinochet's disbanded armies and secret police, killing civilians, cutting costs by having it's men use unarmored JEEPS when not escorting a package, Nisour square massacre (17 people killed, the only time any shots were fired at blackwater personnel was by an Iraqi policeman trying to make them stop (he got taken out) god this book will make you sick if you care for human life. (This isn't nearly 1/10 of their crimes.)

Eric Prince deserves to be hung with his own tiny cock, but I'll settle for a fair trial and hopefully a life sentence.

Rich little trust-fund fucker, plays army men in real life with his fathers fucking money and our money.

[lemmingsoup]

You people need to read Blackwater: The Rise of The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill

If your a decent individual with any ability to empathize this book will make your stomach turn. I couldn't stop reading because it was so damn interesting, but sometimes I had to stop because it made me feel helpless to all the wrong this company has done, as well as the effect extreme privatization of military jobs ever wonder why this war is so damn expensive? "Cost-Plus" contracts and private companies defrauding American tax payers. Hiring soldiers and officers from Pinochet's disbanded armies and secret police, killing civilians, cutting costs by having it's men use unarmored JEEPS when not escorting a package, Nisour square massacre (17 people killed, the only time any shots were fired at blackwater personnel was by an Iraqi policeman trying to make them stop (he got taken out) god this book will make you sick if you care for human life. (This isn't nearly 1/10 of their crimes.)

Eric Prince deserves to be hung with his own tiny cock, but I'll settle for a fair trial and hopefully a life sentence.

Rich little trust-fund fucker, plays army men in real life with his fathers fucking money and our money.

Quite the business plan right?

[Ample]

I see these guys eventually getting to powerful for our own good

what? lol.

[Skree]

You people need to read Blackwater: The Rise of The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill

If your a decent individual with any ability to empathize this book will make your stomach turn. I couldn't stop reading because it was so damn interesting, but sometimes I had to stop because it made me feel helpless to all the wrong this company has done, as well as the effect extreme privatization of military jobs ever wonder why this war is so damn expensive? "Cost-Plus" contracts and private companies defrauding American tax payers. Hiring soldiers and officers from Pinochet's disbanded armies and secret police, killing civilians, cutting costs by having it's men use unarmored JEEPS when not escorting a package, Nisour square massacre (17 people killed, the only time any shots were fired at blackwater personnel was by an Iraqi policeman trying to make them stop (he got taken out) god this book will make you sick if you care for human life. (This isn't nearly 1/10 of their crimes.)

Eric Prince deserves to be hung with his own tiny cock, but I'll settle for a fair trial and hopefully a life sentence.

Rich little trust-fund fucker, plays army men in real life with his fathers fucking money and our money.I read lots of stuff. I have questions.

Is the case he makes well documented ?

Can you easily go to sources he quotes and verify the information ?

Have you tried to verify any of the sources ?

Skree

[Youknowho]

I read lots of stuff. I have questions.

Is the case he makes well documented ?

Can you easily go to sources he quotes and verify the information ?

Have you tried to verify any of the sources ?

Skree

Indeed he does. Everything is cited, there's about 70 pages of sources and quotes in the back.

And I have checked a few but to ask me to check all of them would be a little extreme.

[blemm]

And I have checked a few but to ask me to check all of them would be a little extreme.

Yet you would be willing to

[hang him] with his own tiny cock

Huh.

[Desperado[1G]]

blackwater isn't any worse than the american military, it's just more honest. most troops have this brainwashed mentality of "patriotism" when in reality they're jut working for money like anyone else. money and a trip to college, and whatever other "perks" come with slaughtering 3rd world peeps with 0tech lvs.

You're a piece of trash

[Skree]

Indeed he does. Everything is cited, there's about 70 pages of sources and quotes in the back.

And I have checked a few but to ask me to check all of them would be a little extreme.No, I would never ask that. Just wanted to get a read on it from you.

I'll check it out today at Borders.

Skree

[MinusInnocence]

The idea of a private military contractor is not totally outrageous. That companies like Blackwater are considered to be the pick of the litter on the world stage today says more about our own government's lack of discretion as a consumer than anything about mercenaries as a whole.

If you find Blackwater or any other mercenary outfit to be unacceptable, we should probably try harder to hold our government accountable for its shitty business practices. Demanding a higher standard of professionalism and ethics from the contractors Washington hires to take out the trash is never a bad thing. After all, when they're on the US payroll, they are representing us overseas with their words and actions.

In the free market, drawing a line in the sand and saying "This is no longer acceptable, and companies who engage in this type of behavior will no longer do business with the United States of America" would clear up a lot of the funny business going on. If the bottom line is all they care about, they would necessarily adjust their business practices to keep the money flowing in. Anyway, just a thought... maybe it's not the mercs you have a problem with but that our elected officials DON'T have a problem with them.


Re: Somalia, it is precisely an example of activity private military contractors should be engaged in. Piracy in that region disrupts trade and travel for many developed countries, but it would be a stretch to classify it as a threat to anybody's own national security. Deploying troops in this situation may not be acceptable, but hiring someone to take care of business seems reasonable.

[Killuminati]

;1829427']You're a piece of trash

truth hurts, lawl

[Razel]

You people need to read Blackwater: The Rise of The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill

If your a decent individual with any ability to empathize this book will make your stomach turn. I couldn't stop reading because it was so damn interesting, but sometimes I had to stop because it made me feel helpless to all the wrong this company has done, as well as the effect extreme privatization of military jobs ever wonder why this war is so damn expensive? "Cost-Plus" contracts and private companies defrauding American tax payers. Hiring soldiers and officers from Pinochet's disbanded armies and secret police, killing civilians, cutting costs by having it's men use unarmored JEEPS when not escorting a package, Nisour square massacre (17 people killed, the only time any shots were fired at blackwater personnel was by an Iraqi policeman trying to make them stop (he got taken out) god this book will make you sick if you care for human life. (This isn't nearly 1/10 of their crimes.)

Eric Prince deserves to be hung with his own tiny cock, but I'll settle for a fair trial and hopefully a life sentence.

Rich little trust-fund fucker, plays army men in real life with his fathers fucking money and our money.


yup true stuffs

[Atua]

If only that book wasn't so biased, and written without even a faint attempt at disguising it's agenda to bash the war, Bush, Republicans, and Christians. The 'sources' are for the most part interviews, but it does not say who or where, or left wing media reports.

It's a hack job with a liberal agenda, nothing more, nothing less. The fact that Michael Moore wrote the cover synopsis gives a good idea of what's inside.

Gee, I wonder why no one from Blackwater wanted to be interviewed for the book, with such a ridiculous slant, I wouldn't want to say anything to Scahill for him to interpret as he pleased.

If you want a book to read that will comfort you in your view that everything right of communism is bad, this will be a good read. If you want an objective view on Blackwater, or a decent history of the compant etc., look elsewhere.


My $0.02

[Razel]

If only that book wasn't so biased, and written without even a faint attempt at disguising it's agenda to bash the war, Bush, Republicans, and Christians. The 'sources' are for the most part interviews, but it does not say who or where, or left wing media reports.

It's a hack job with a liberal agenda, nothing more, nothing less. The fact that Michael Moore wrote the cover synopsis gives a good idea of what's inside.

Gee, I wonder why no one from Blackwater wanted to be interviewed for the book, with such a ridiculous slant, I wouldn't want to say anything to Scahill for him to interpret as he pleased.

If you want a book to read that will comfort you in your view that everything right of communism is bad, this will be a good read. If you want an objective view on Blackwater, or a decent history of the compant etc., look elsewhere.


My $0.02


wars should not be privatized period.

[Atua]

wars should not be privatized period.

Thank you for your opinion. I always like learning about the views that forumfallers hold.

[Jackhowitzer]

truth hurts, lawl

You know, a lot of people don't join the military out of "blind patriotism" or some other idiotic notion that you could cook up. Some join it because it's a fucking job lol. I guess the reason Tyler thinks that most or everyone who joins the military are blind patriots is because he knows most of those types of people, and doesn't actually know the guys that do it because it's a job, not some mystical task from god that tells his/your relatives to "JOIN UP AND SERVE YOUR COUNTRY SO WE CAN SLAY TEH INFIDELZ". Also, Black Water is a little too trigger happy for my taste, they're not to big on ROE's if you haven't heard lately. So seriously, if you think they're better than the U.S. military, you must have a few screws loose, and might want to get it checked out.

[Razel]

Thank you for your opinion. I always like learning about the views that forumfallers hold.

if a war is worth fighting the citizens will glady volunteer for it. private wars for profit is never the right thing to do. Humanity will destroy itself because of stupidity and greed if we dont start learning. Every swinging dick on the planet should be raising hell that private merc corps like blackwater are allowed to exist with our govt supporting them. Continue to let them exist and they will eventually get so fucking large they will wipe out entire countrys and there will be nothing you can do about it.

[DocGonzo]

imo, the most complete book i've seen so far on the topic of contemporary mercenaries, shows the history from the beginnings of Executive Outcomes up until the late 90's

it's Singer's Corporate Warriors (http://books.google.com/books?id=VyIl3fdeadIC&dq=corporate+warriors&pg=PP1&ots=DGBw1ftz4i&source=bn&sig=wf7To8bmBui5Bb2p-hAq8NzXkRo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPP1,M1) - the link is to an online PDF version of the book...

a compelling read, if someone scholarly and dry

the informational sources are all in the index, and indisputable...even while some may argue with the author's conclusions...the facts are dead on

warning...reading this will either scare the shit out of you, or really piss you off

[Paralda]

And then the US will sell them 4 battleships.

This.

[Atua]

if a war is worth fighting the citizens will glady volunteer for it. private wars for profit is never the right thing to do. Humanity will destroy itself because of stupidity and greed if we dont start learning. Every swinging dick on the planet should be raising hell that private merc corps like blackwater are allowed to exist with our govt supporting them. Continue to let them exist and they will eventually get so fucking large they will wipe out entire countrys and there will be nothing you can do about it.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, even though I think that private corporations competing for gov't contracts can fight much more efficient battles than the gov't ever could. Having a monopoly means your way is the only way, no matter how inefficient.

The point of my comment was not to argue whether we should have companies like Blackwater around, but rather to give a review of a book that I found sub-par and misleading, no matter what you think of Blackwater et al.

[Toilet]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, even though I think that private corporations competing for gov't contracts can fight much more efficient battles than the gov't ever could. Having a monopoly means your way is the only way, no matter how inefficient.

The only reason the private companies, like Blackwater are more efficient is because of a few things.

1. They give better trainning to their "workers".

2. They often recruit people that have been in the special forces of the different countries.

3. They give their "workers" more money.

This can be used for nearly every private company, mercenary or not, with a few changes.

[DocGonzo]

The only reason the private companies, like Blackwater are more efficient is because of a few things.

1. They give better trainning to their "workers".

2. They often recruit people that have been in the special forces of the different countries.

3. They give their "workers" more money.

This can be used for nearly every private company, mercenary or not, with a few changes.

you forgot the no rules and complete disregard for any laws or consequences

when you can behave like Attila the Hun you can be much more "efficient" than if you work within the...oh, say...Geneva Conventions

but i digres...

[Atua]

The only reason the private companies, like Blackwater are more efficient is because of a few things.

1. They give better trainning to their "workers".

2. They often recruit people that have been in the special forces of the different countries.

3. They give their "workers" more money.

This can be used for nearly every private company, mercenary or not, with a few changes.

That doesn't seem like 'The only reason' those seem like pretty compelling reasons to me. If a corporation can win a war faster and cheaper than the gov't, or with fewer casualties, why should they not do it? Why should the gov't fight a war where 10 000 troops die, and trillions of dollars are spent, when Blackwater would do it with 1000 casualties and 500 billion dollars?

The US military is made up of volunteers, just like Blackwater, and they get paid to do their job. Soldiers do what they are told, contractors have a choice whether to do what they are asked, but should largely be held responsible for those choices that they make.

[Atua]

you forgot the no rules and complete disregard for any laws or consequences

when you can behave like Attila the Hun you can be much more "efficient" than if you work within the...oh, say...Geneva Conventions

but i digres...

The consequences are the same for a corporation as they are for the military. Do you think the military doesn't abuse laws? I'd say a corporation would have more sever consequence, as the gov't may be less willing to hide these abuses.

If they are abused, and someone finds out about it, and cares enough to make a fuss, there are consequences. Corporation or Military.

[DocGonzo]

That doesn't seem like 'The only reason' those seem like pretty compelling reasons to me. If a corporation can win a war faster and cheaper than the gov't, or with fewer casualties, why should they not do it? Why should the gov't fight a war where 10 000 troops die, and trillions of dollars are spent, when Blackwater would do it with 1000 casualties and 500 billion dollars?

The US military is made up of volunteers, just like Blackwater, and they get paid to do their job. Soldiers do what they are told, contractors have a choice whether to do what they are asked, but should largely be held responsible for those choices that they make.

they are not there to "win"...they are there to get paid

this means that to maximize profits, it is in their interest to stretch out the conflict as much as possible, to utilize all tactics and strategies possible to extend and maximize the possible profit for themselves at the cost of any other variable or objective

until you recognize that, you will not understand

then check your history, anthropology too...and see why a professional military with it's only loyalty to it's nation, is both strategically and financially superior to the mercenary option

look at Iraq...look deeply, you will find that the entire reason the initial planning was so fucked up was that Rumsfeld used private contractors to work out the initial invasion plans, the overall strategy, and as advisors in hiring the mercenaries and logistical companies they would hir [b]for open and continuing contracts for the duration of the conflict[/url]

then go and look up how much we spend on mercenaries, or that they are second only to US troops in numbers

on and on... mercenaries are bad, mmmmMMMmmm'kay?

[DocGonzo]

The consequences are the same for a corporation as they are for the military. Do you think the military doesn't abuse laws? I'd say a corporation would have more sever consequence, as the gov't may be less willing to hide these abuses.

If they are abused, and someone finds out about it, and cares enough to make a fuss, there are consequences. Corporation or Military.

we you ever in the military?

how is your history?

read my above yet?

how about the link i put in earlier from the Singer book?

i'll wait...

[Leonon]

You know, a lot of people don't join the military out of "blind patriotism" or some other idiotic notion that you could cook up. Some join it because it's a fucking job lol.Blackwater's a job too, a higher paying job with better treatment and benefits if you're one of the guys with guns.

It's also a deadly job where you're uninformed and poorly armored (if you're armored at all) if you're not one of the guys with guns.

Yes it's so shady the shadiness has almost hit critical mass and collapsed into a shady black hole. It's also a better job if you're a soldier. (http://www.blackwaterusa.com/company_profile/careers_Overview.html) I couldn't find an overview of how vacation days are calculated and used but I'm pretty sure Blackwater gets more vacation days they can use when they want than US soldiers. I saw several Blackwater families when I went to Halloween Horror Nights on the 10th. How many US troops have you heard about that came home from Iraq just to go to something like that?


I don't agree with what they're allowed to get away with as a company, but if you're going to be a soldier because it's a "fucking job lol", being a merc is generally preferable.

[Atua]

they are not there to "win"...they are there to get paid

this means that to maximize profits, it is in their interest to stretch out the conflict as much as possible, to utilize all tactics and strategies possible to extend and maximize the possible profit for themselves at the cost of any other variable or objective

until you recognize that, you will not understand

then check your history, anthropology too...and see why a professional military with it's only loyalty to it's nation, is both strategically and financially superior to the mercenary option

look at Iraq...look deeply, you will find that the entire reason the initial planning was so fucked up was that Rumsfeld used private contractors to work out the initial invasion plans, the overall strategy, and as advisors in hiring the mercenaries and logistical companies they would hir [b]for open and continuing contracts for the duration of the conflict[/url]

then go and look up how much we spend on mercenaries, or that they are second only to US troops in numbers

on and on... mercenaries are bad, mmmmMMMmmm'kay?

Just because they are there to get paid, doesn't mean they will prolong the fight. Sure, if your gov't is in bed with the contractors and gives them retarded contracts, such as 'We will give you 50 billion dollars for a year of fighting' Just as an example, there will be abuse.

'Give them 500 billion in 2 years if they successfully install democracy in Iraq, otherwise they don't get paid' (Another overly simplified example) and the contract makes more sense.

[Skree]

The consequences are the same for a corporation as they are for the military.If this is not an opinion stated as fact, please post where the information came from that lead you to make such a statement.

Skree

[DocGonzo]

Just because they are there to get paid, doesn't mean they will prolong the fight. Sure, if your gov't is in bed with the contractors and gives them retarded contracts, such as 'We will give you 50 billion dollars for a year of fighting' Just as an example, there will be abuse.

'Give them 500 billion in 2 years if they successfully install democracy in Iraq, otherwise they don't get paid' (Another overly simplified example) and the contract makes more sense.

it doesn't?

silly me, can you define the concept of a profit motivated corporation for me? here i had thought, and history had proven, that the sole purpose of a corporation was to maximize profits for the owners/shareholders

now, how would a military organization do that, since they don't get paid as much for peacetime...?

check the link to Singer's book i posted previously...reality can be harsh, but it helps...

[Atua]

it doesn't?

silly me, can you define the concept of a profit motivated corporation for me? here i had thought, and history had proven, that the sole purpose of a corporation was to maximize profits for the owners/shareholders

now, how would a military organization do that, since they don't get paid as much for peacetime...?

check the link to Singer's book i posted previously...reality can be harsh, but it helps...

Gee, did you read the rest of my post, or just cherry pick the part that you had a reply to?

Sorry, I have not yet had time to read a 350 page book. I guess only people with theology doctorates can claim that feat if you think I should be done it by now.

[Atua]

If this is not an opinion stated as fact, please post where the information came from that lead you to make such a statement.

Skree

Do civilians get killed by us military - yes
Do they get killed by Blackwater - yes
Do US soldiers get killed by US military - yes
Do US soldiers get killed by Blackwater - not that I could find
Do US soldiers face consequences for these killings - sometimes
Do Blackwater contractors - Under investigation

So I will concede that my point should have said - Contractors should face the same penalties as military personnel.

[Youknowho]

If only that book wasn't so biased, and written without even a faint attempt at disguising it's agenda to bash the war, Bush, Republicans, and Christians. The 'sources' are for the most part interviews, but it does not say who or where, or left wing media reports.

It's a hack job with a liberal agenda, nothing more, nothing less. The fact that Michael Moore wrote the cover synopsis gives a good idea of what's inside.

Gee, I wonder why no one from Blackwater wanted to be interviewed for the book, with such a ridiculous slant, I wouldn't want to say anything to Scahill for him to interpret as he pleased.

If you want a book to read that will comfort you in your view that everything right of communism is bad, this will be a good read. If you want an objective view on Blackwater, or a decent history of the compant etc., look elsewhere.


My $0.02

Wow, this book in no way states anything about the free-market, it only shows what happens when FORCE (something that SHOULD be monopolized by the government when being used offensively) is outsourced to private entities.

I'm not a democrat, I'm not a republican, I'm not a fucking socialist or a communist - I'm getting sick of the extreme examples you fucking ignorant assholes constantly use, democrats ARE NOT SOCIALIST, THEY ARE NOT COMMUNIST- I assure you very few democrats want the means of production to be placed into the hands of the government, how can you slander a book for being biased while using extremely inaccurate descriptions of an opposing opinion and being dismissive of the facts entirely your insinuation of bias is tainted with your own ignorant brand of word. It makes me fucking sick.

This is not an argument of the Private market versus government monopoly this an argument about the outsourcing of FORCE. Taking the power of government and transitively the people and giving it to a corporation who's only obligation is to it's stockholders.

[DocGonzo]

Gee, did you read the rest of my post, or just cherry pick the part that you had a reply to?

Sorry, I have not yet had time to read a 350 page book. I guess only people with theology doctorates can claim that feat if you think I should be done it by now.

and notice you don't even attempt to answer any of the basic questions in what you quoted?

i responded to something in your post that i questioned, then asked some very specific things...which you ignored

failed troll is fail

[Youknowho]

Do US soldiers get killed by Blackwater - not that I could find


Maybe not US soldiers - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/world/middleeast/02shooting.html

They (may) pull guns on US soldiers -http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2023388 (I don't trust this so much because the link to msnbc doesn't work.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/12/iraq.main/index.html

Nisour Square Massacre - for the skeptics. But hey maybe would should have hired Blackwater to do the investigation I bet they could do it more efficiently at a cheaper cost and with only 4 or 5 dead Iraqis.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/10/blackwater-shoo.html

But hey I guess ABC and CNN are socialist democrat slanted news networks that made that all up. Even paid some Iraqis to cry and complain about their supposedly dead husbands, wives... children.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101030_pf.html

Lol, our military must be lying about all this because they're jealous.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2551227.ece

At least some of them aren't fucked up in the head.

[Atua]

Lots of links little actual substance.




I already said Blackwater employees shoot Iraqi civilians, you'd be naive to think that soldiers don't do the same.

Hey look, links

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-5401680-details/US+troops+%27shoot+civilians%27/article.do

http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2007/03/22/1876/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1064689/Afghan-man-shot-dead-British-troops-failing-stop-checkpoint.html

Exciting, both contractors and soldiers shoot civilians, who would have thought.


Where did your tirade about Free Markets come from? I never said anything about free markets. In fact the words 'free' or 'market' don't ever come up in the post you are refering to.



Oh and Doc, If you can cherry pick my posts, I will take the liberty to cherry picking yours and answer or critique whatever I please while ignoring the rest.

[DocGonzo]

Oh and Doc, If you can cherry pick my posts, I will take the liberty to cherry picking yours and answer or critique whatever I please while ignoring the rest.

lol..do as you like...

my point was that i typed about something i had fault with, this usually means that i can agree with the stuff i am not arguing about, simple really

if you got sand in your vag over something specific, please let me know and i will address it more completely if possible...

[Youknowho]

I already said Blackwater employees shoot Iraqi civilians, you'd be naive to think that soldiers don't do the same.

Hey look, links

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-5401680-details/US+troops+%27shoot+civilians%27/article.do

http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2007/03/22/1876/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1064689/Afghan-man-shot-dead-British-troops-failing-stop-checkpoint.html

Exciting, both contractors and soldiers shoot civilians, who would have thought.


Where did your tirade about Free Markets come from? I never said anything about free markets. In fact the words 'free' or 'market' don't ever come up in the post you are refering to.



Oh and Doc, If you can cherry pick my posts, I will take the liberty to cherry picking yours and answer or critique whatever I please while ignoring the rest.

The difference being that no blackwater operators or executives have been held accountable.


If you want a book to read that will comfort you in your view that everything right of communism is bad, this will be a good read. If you want an objective view on Blackwater, or a decent history of the compant etc., look elsewhere.

You suggested that liberal was synonymous with communism - which I'm sure you know is an economic system that places the means of production in the hands of the government. My "tirade" came from the fact that people within this thread and elsewhere have argued for the use of mercenaries by attaching the argument of capitalism vs. communism, FREE MARKET vs. command market.

And as for the companies history, the author uses quotes by the companies founders and their own interviews. If there is any discrepancy there then it is the fault of the founders themselves.

And yes I did ignore the rest of your posts I'm dealing with the ones you explicitly quoted me in and the ones towards the last pages, I'm not gonna be bothered to read the rest of this thread for an argument that will ultimately bring no gain and no change in either of our minds.

I can be ignorant in that regard if you can be ignorant as to slander a book you haven't even read.

Yes U.S. Soldiers commit crimes as well, but in an ideal world an according to policy they are held accountable - to this date not a single blackwater operator has been brought to criminal trial for crimes committed in Iraq and Afghanistan, furthermore they act to protect their employees by smuggling them out of Iraq to save them from any possible jurisdiction that the Iraqi government may have to try them.

And this book does go so far as to blame the Bush administration for this whole mess, rightly so, whether or not you believe the war was justified you have to admit that it was initiated by the Bush administration and any level beyond a shallow reading into of the basis and actions of this war will show anybody how grossly mismanaged it was, even McCain and republicans now admit this.

You have taken individual offense to statements and generalizations about those of your viewpoint as a whole.

[Skree]

Do civilians get killed by us military - yes
Do they get killed by Blackwater - yes
Do US soldiers get killed by US military - yes
Do US soldiers get killed by Blackwater - not that I could find
Do US soldiers face consequences for these killings - sometimes
Do Blackwater contractors - Under investigation

So I will concede that my point should have said - Contractors should face the same penalties as military personnel.Hey you've got more integrity than many posters here.

Skree