Greatest military commander of the 20th century?

[Nefastus]

20th century brought two of the most destructive and technologically advanced world wars in the history of the mankind. Out of all the conflicts in the 20th century, focusing mainly on World War I & II, who would you consider the greatest military commander and strategist of the 20th century warfare?

Personally, I'd have to go with Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, who was a Soviet military commander, even eventually appointed as Marshal of the Soviet Union by Stalin himself. Although Stalin usually tried to eliminate or soften the individuals who he saw as potential threat to his position, he was too afraid to mess with Zhukov due to his military knowledge and victories against Third Reich. He's most famous for his victories in Operation Bagration, which cleared Nazi forces from Eastern Poland and Belorussia, and the Battle of Berlin, which was the final and decisive battle against the Nazis, capturing Hitler's stronghold, Berlin.

More information about him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Let me hear your thoughts.

[tallefred]

I like. I'll take one.

[Toilet]

I like. I'll take one.

Is it a gift, and if so, do you want gift wrap on it?

[ejnomad07]

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing, GCB (September 13, 1860 – July 15, 1948) was an officer in the United States Army. He is the only person to be promoted in his own lifetime to the highest rank ever held in the United States Army—General of the Armies, with the exception of George Washington, who by Congressional edict[1] was never and will never be outranked.[2] Pershing led the American Expeditionary Force in World War I and was regarded as a mentor by the generation of American generals who led the United States Army in Europe during World War II, including George C. Marshall, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Omar N. Bradley, and George S. Patton.

[Beorg]

Stormin' Norman, most definitely.

[lastpatagonian]

patton ftw

[Paganini]

Erich Von Manstein.

[Vanno]

Stormin' Norman, most definitely.

Indeed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHHS0DmTpdM)

[[Malice]Bronson]

Patton

[Yamamoto]

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

[Nazertheen]

General Akbar

He knows a trap when he sees one

[Titus Ultor]

Patton for bad-assery, Rommel for strategic prowess. The Marshal could've conquered the world with a better commander-in-chief.

Zhukov was just an adequate general, imo. His greatest accomplishment (similar to Patton's) was the reconfiguration of blitzkrieg to the Russian military. In some senses, it can be said that he didn't really have any chance but to eventually win the war given the sheer amount of resources given to him. He didn't fuck up all that much, but he didn't do anything all that great, either.

[ppsh42]

I'd have to go with Rommel.

[Temet nosce]

Admittedly I'm less of a military history buff than some people, however I'm rather surprised noone has mentioned Douglas MacArthur. I mean really, in WW2 the man pretty much single handedly won the pacific theater, and he's one of only five men to reach the rank of General of the Army.

[Nasty]

Rommel

[ejnomad07]

Admittedly I'm less of a military history buff than some people, however I'm rather surprised noone has mentioned Douglas MacArthur. I mean really, in WW2 the man pretty much single handedly won the pacific theater, and he's one of only five men to reach the rank of General of the Army.

I thought about it, but my man outranked him.

[heroshade]

Audie Murphey. I don't care that he wasn't a commander, he's still better.

[rockyraccoon]

fuck this thread isn't trollable.

[ejnomad07]

fuck this thread isn't trollable.

I have suddenly grown to appreciate this thread....

[LordTenacious]

fuck this thread isn't trollable.
Bullshit.

The greatest general is Gamelin. What a great general. Anyone who says otherwise is stupid.

[surGeonFFS]

Ender Wiggins.

[Delthayre]

Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim

[Nefastus]

Bullshit.

The greatest general is Gamelin. What a great general. Anyone who says otherwise is stupid.

Damnit!

Anyways, I think only Fro would agree with you on that.

[Layedballer]

Between Erwin Rommel and George Patton

[Nafelos]

Chester Nimitz.

[Mippoose]

I'd have to go with Admiral Ackbar.

[Caffy]

Between Erwin Rommel and George Patton

I have trouble deciding between these two.

Rommel was a Blitzkrieg general who was saddled with equipment better suited to a slower style of warfare. German tanks just got bigger, slower, and more mechanicaly suspect as time went on. In Africa he was often short of supplies and still put up a hell of a fight. He get's big points for doing more with less.

Patton on the other hand, had the perfect army for his agressive, mobile style of warfare. Fast, reliable tanks, and alot of vehicles to carry his infantry. He did things that no other general thought was even possible. He get's big points for making the most out of his advantages.

Patton loses points for being too agressive though. Out running your supply lines is an unforgivable mistake, and so I have say Rommel is the better general.

[lastpatagonian]

general mills, cause lucky charms pwns all cereals

[NewRage]

My vote goes to the Desert Fox.

Admittedly I'm less of a military history buff than some people, however I'm rather surprised noone has mentioned Douglas MacArthur. I mean really, in WW2 the man pretty much single handedly won the pacific theater, and he's one of only five men to reach the rank of General of the Army.

MacArthur was a horrible general. His promotion was almost entirely propaganda. The other two generals in command with him when the Japanese took the Pacific got fired right off the bat, and MacArthur would have if FDR didn't see a use for him. Sure enough a few years later he was relieved of his postion. Sure he took back the Pacific, but it wasn't his tactics as much as it was that the Japs didn't stand a chance against US production.

[Paganini]

MacArthur was a horrible general.

Uh, no.

[NewRage]

Uh, no.

Uh, yes. The retreat to Baatan peninsula was pretty damn bad. In fact dumber then standing ground where the troops were stationed. He then orders a fight to the death command while fleeing by submarine at night to Australia. Like I said he should have been fired immediately like his fellow generals, but FDR needed a hero in the Pacific and choose MacArthur. He mainly got famous because he had his only personal photographers (making him the 2nd most photographed general in history, behind Hitler I believe). What are his brilliant tactics? Island hopping? "Hmm... there are thousands of islands in the Pacific. I got it! Let's take over one island, then after we have it in control take over another." It was the ability of the US to outproduce Japan that won the Pacific, not the brilliant tactics of MacArthur.

[Sickle]

i dont know who it was, but what ever guy was in charge of the North Vietnamese Army during Vietnam did a pretty damn good job

[heroshade]

i dont know who it was, but what ever guy was in charge of the North Vietnamese Army during Vietnam did a pretty damn good job

Meh. We were unmotivated draftees fighting a war nobody wanted to fight. It's the same reason the Brits lost to the colonists.

EDIT: Mo Din Dien I think. He might have been with the south though, I don't know.

[Sickle]

well whoever he was he sure did a good job with the limited resources and technology fighting a new kind of war but i accept that morale for that thing wasnt good even before it began

[Titus Ultor]

well whoever he was he sure did a good job with the limited resources and technology fighting a new kind of war but i accept that morale for that thing wasnt good even before it began

Lol, killing 58,000 men and losing a couple million isn't good generalship, even if he did win in the end.

[heroshade]

Lol, killing 58,000 men and losing a couple million isn't good generalship, even if he did win in the end.

Oh isn't it?:sly:

[Loger]

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

this

[Teth]

Erich von Manstein. Even the other German generals admitted he was the greatest operational planner amongst them, peerless in his management of mobile forces.

[Xtra-Medium]

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing

John Joseph "Black Jack" Pershing, GCB (September 13, 1860 – July 15, 1948) was an officer in the United States Army. He is the only person to be promoted in his own lifetime to the highest rank ever held in the United States Army—General of the Armies, with the exception of George Washington, who by Congressional edict[1] was never and will never be outranked.[2] Pershing led the American Expeditionary Force in World War I and was regarded as a mentor by the generation of American generals who led the United States Army in Europe during World War II, including George C. Marshall, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Omar N. Bradley, and George S. Patton.
is it true that he had 2 pearl handle revolvers that he would go berserk with in battle? if so i would have to agree he is the greatest

[BladeSLicer]

Patton loses points for being too agressive though. Out running your supply lines is an unforgivable mistake, and so I have say Rommel is the better general.

Patton was no idiot. He purposely outran his supply lines so that the American army was forced to catch up and resupply his units. It was actually a strategy of his to get some of the supplies that were being refused to him and being given to bradley.

If you'll look at the course of the war he was always on the verge of running out of supplies, and that was simply to force the army to keep up.

[Atnas]

Manstein, who constantly saved the German eastern front until he was removed from his position, since he wasn't an active nazi supporter (altough he, well, fought in their name). He later helped West Germany build up their army. So many know of Rommel, but so few of Manstein, it's silly!

Edit: Rommel is overrated, no doubt the German propaganda machine have done much to make him seem a greater commander then he really was (he wasn't bad though).

[Ammon777]

20th century brought two of the most destructive and technologically advanced world wars in the history of the mankind. Out of all the conflicts in the 20th century, focusing mainly on World War I & II, who would you consider the greatest military commander and strategist of the 20th century warfare?

Personally, I'd have to go with Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, who was a Soviet military commander, even eventually appointed as Marshal of the Soviet Union by Stalin himself. Although Stalin usually tried to eliminate or soften the individuals who he saw as potential threat to his position, he was too afraid to mess with Zhukov due to his military knowledge and victories against Third Reich. He's most famous for his victories in Operation Bagration, which cleared Nazi forces from Eastern Poland and Belorussia, and the Battle of Berlin, which was the final and decisive battle against the Nazis, capturing Hitler's stronghold, Berlin.

More information about him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Let me hear your thoughts.
Nefastus. I know you are an emo and you are in serious denial. You sometimes accuse me of being emo, yet that is merely a misdirected reflection of the inner opinion you hold about your own repressed identity. You project your repressed self image onto others, but I can accept that you are just going through a hard time right now. :) The sooner you come out of your denial stage, the sooner you will truly arrive at peace with yourself. :) You are angry. You admire violent war generals because of this anger. I can understand that. Just be honest with yourself and this will soon be resolved. :) I know this stage of your life might be rough. Just know, you are not alone. There are plenty of other emos out there that feel that same way that you do, and who are going through the exact same process of self-realization as you are. :) One day soon, you will wake up, and decide to put on eye-liner and have a stupid hair style. And you know what. Thats okey. :D Thats just... okey. :)

[Caffy]

Patton was no idiot. He purposely outran his supply lines so that the American army was forced to catch up and resupply his units. It was actually a strategy of his to get some of the supplies that were being refused to him and being given to bradley.

If you'll look at the course of the war he was always on the verge of running out of supplies, and that was simply to force the army to keep up.

Ofcourse he did it on purpose. That was the entire point. He got men killed, and equipment destroyed, doing so. Over what? Outshining Monty? Vannity isn't exactly a great reason to get people killed imo. Great, close to greatest general ever, but he had too much pride for his own good.

There's agressive, and there's reckless. Patton crossed that line.

[Teth]

Nefastus. I know you are an emo and you are in serious denial. You sometimes accuse me of being emo, yet that is merely a misdirected reflection of the inner opinion you hold about your own repressed identity. You project your repressed self image onto others, but I can accept that you are just going through a hard time right now. :) The sooner you come out of your denial stage, the sooner you will truly arrive at peace with yourself. :) You are angry. You admire violent war generals because of this anger. I can understand that. Just be honest with yourself and this will soon be resolved. :) I know this stage of your life might be rough. Just know, you are not alone. There are plenty of other emos out there that feel that same way that you do, and who are going through the exact same process of self-realization as you are. :) One day soon, you will wake up, and decide to put on eye-liner and have a stupid hair style. And you know what. Thats okey. :D Thats just... okey. :)
I want to rape you in your eye sockets just so you know the pain that post of yours put me through.

[Ammon777]

I want to rape you in your eye sockets just so you know the pain that post of yours put me through.

It was directed at Nefastus, but you know, you really have some anger issues.

Srsly.

[Teth]

It was directed at Nefastus, but you know, you really have some anger issues.

Srsly.
Nothing that some eye-rape won't fix, you son of a bitch.

Now back to how awesome Manstein was. Fuck yeah Fall Gelb.

[Ammon777]

Nothing that some eye-rape won't fix, you son of a bitch.

Now back to how awesome Manstein was. Fuck yeah Fall Gelb.

Hahaha, I am glad to know that my message to Nefastus will be successful.

[Eclipso]

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel


Rommel ftw.

[Weeking]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Guderian_in_the_Wehrmacht
Heinz Guderian for inventing Blitzkrieg.

[Nehemia]

Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim

/Second


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim

[Ababoba]

Mannerheim!

[Eclipso]

Atatürk

he was pretty epic.

[Paakkor]

Rommel! He didn't like Hitler and even supportet attempted murder of Hitler.

[Vertigo Vain]

Erwin Rommel

[Spades Felligan]

Erich Von Manstein.

Agreed. His brilliance was snuffed out by the irrational Nazi leadership who overrode his advice and strategic planning for more suicidal "last stands." Manstein even came up with a feasible plan as late as 1944-45 to stop the Soviet advance, but it was rejected by Hitler because it required withdrawing from the front lines a bit - unacceptable.

Mannerheim is also pretty good. ; )

[Aragoni]

Rommel. Without a doubt.

Edit: I'm going to say that Fidel Castro and Mao Zedong were badasses too.

[Tharkon Fargor]

I'm gonna go out and say Rommel.
But in a way Tito was one of the best aswell.

Aff I like Tito for pwning Stalin anyway...
Tito after his 9000th assasination attempt: "If you keep sending asssasins after me I will send just one and he will not fail."

The dude also managed to liberated the first nation in Europe from the Nazi's. It was a nation roughly the size of Slovakia in Serbia and he held it for 2 months.
He's pretty kewl.

Castro wasn't bad neither. He had like 20 men and managed to overthrow a well financed and well equiped dictator in Cuba.

There's also a very skilled polish guy that managed to destroy a couple of tank columns with cavalary brigades in Poland and then designed much of the strategy 1944 and the defense in Ardennes.

Obviously who ever organised the first Gulf War knew his shit to. Or one might say that Sadam was an idiot to. Who knows.

[Scully]

General Gardner.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Rommel. Without a doubt.

Edit: I'm going to say that Fidel Castro and Mao Zedong were badasses too.

Nao...Mao had a bunch of other generals which pwned him. Just like Hitler.
But Mao wasn't bad.

[BladeSLicer]

Ofcourse he did it on purpose. That was the entire point. He got men killed, and equipment destroyed, doing so. Over what? Outshining Monty? Vannity isn't exactly a great reason to get people killed imo. Great, close to greatest general ever, but he had too much pride for his own good.

There's agressive, and there's reckless. Patton crossed that line.

Well it was not only to out manuever the Germans and bring the war in the european theater to a quicker conclusion, but also to reach the surrounded 101st airborne in time. By obtaining the supplies he needed by straining the supply line he almost undoubtedly saved more lives in a well executed manuever than would have been lost in a slow, bloody assault.

[Razli]

Myself.

[biggunsar]

I have trouble deciding between these two.

Rommel was a Blitzkrieg general who was saddled with equipment better suited to a slower style of warfare. German tanks just got bigger, slower, and more mechanicaly suspect as time went on. In Africa he was often short of supplies and still put up a hell of a fight. He get's big points for doing more with less.

Patton on the other hand, had the perfect army for his agressive, mobile style of warfare. Fast, reliable tanks, and alot of vehicles to carry his infantry. He did things that no other general thought was even possible. He get's big points for making the most out of his advantages.

Patton loses points for being too agressive though. Out running your supply lines is an unforgivable mistake, and so I have say Rommel is the better general.

LOL rommel was not a blitzkrieg general LOL.

he was a defensive general. His real genius was HOW he was defensive, he didn't dig in and wait for you. What he would do is lauch surprising attacks with lesser forces. Then retreat. The enemy would think they got him now, and would give chase. Meanwhile, miles back he would have his tigers and 88's and paks waiting in ambush for the oncoming armour.

THe enemy armour would get sapped way by the dug in surprise forces, before the enemy armour even came into shooting range of Rommels fleeing attackers.

And he would do this his whole campaign.

ANyone saying rommel, wthout an explaination is a sheeple. You have to know the man, and his accomplishments before you spew out a mindless answer.

[biggunsar]

LOL rommel was not a blitzkrieg general LOL.

he was a defensive general. His real genius was HOW he was defensive, he didn't dig in and wait for you. What he would do is lauch surprising attacks with lesser forces. Then retreat. The enemy would think they got him now, and would give chase. Meanwhile, miles back he would have his tigers and 88's and paks waiting in ambush for the oncoming armour.

THe enemy armour would get sapped way by the dug in surprise forces, before the enemy armour even came into shooting range of Rommels fleeing attackers.

And he would do this his whole campaign.

ANyone saying rommel, wthout an explaination is a sheeple. You have to know the man, and his accomplishments before you spew out a mindless answer.


PS the greatest general of all time was the japanese general that managed to move an entire battle fleet undetected and attack pearl harbour.

[Bratus]

the fleet was detected people are just stupid...


Tadamichi Kuribayashi is the greatest...

Kuribayashi had studied other American assaults carefully and decided not to contest seriously the Allied beach landings. Instead, defense of Iwo Jima would be fought almost entirely from underground.

The Japanese honeycombed the island with more than 18 kilometers (11 miles) of tunnels, 5,000 caves, and pillboxes. Kuribayashi also instructed his troops that each man should kill ten of the enemy before dying, and he strictly forbade the banzai charge, which he viewed as ineffective. His men proceeded with the "silent" charge, which confused the Americans, who were accustomed to the traditional loud "banzai" charge, as in the Battle of Saipan.

He was also one of the men who didn't want war with the U.S. since he saw our industrial base.

The US declared Iwo Jima secure on 26 March 1945, after 6,821 U.S. Marines were killed and 19,189 wounded. Only 216 of the approximately 21,000 Japanese defenders survived to be captured.

U.S. 100,000 soldiers With Naval and Air forces Japan 21,000 no naval, air or supplies...

Kuribayashi recognized that, without possibility of re-supply, reinforcement, naval support, or air support, he would not be able to hold Iwo Jima against the overwhelmingly superior military forces of the United States. But loss of Iwo Jima would place all of Japan within range of American strategic bombers, so Kuribayashi determined to make the fall of Iwo Jima as late as possible and planned a campaign of attrition, by which he hoped to inflict such severe losses on the Americans that they would reconsider the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland.

Sux to be him guess he didn't see the A-bomb coming lol

[Tharkon Fargor]

sux to be the hundreds of thousands who got burned alive or suffered from mutations after the A-bomb to "xD"

[Paganini]

LOL rommel was not a blitzkrieg general LOL.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Division

And Guderian didn't invent Blitzkrieg alone, he refined Manstein's plan for the invasion of France.

[Dragonfly]

Yuri for the deployment of his psychic domination technique. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mDV9Am5AlYY

[Nefastus]

Nefastus. I know you are an emo and you are in serious denial. You sometimes accuse me of being emo, yet that is merely a misdirected reflection of the inner opinion you hold about your own repressed identity. You project your repressed self image onto others, but I can accept that you are just going through a hard time right now. :) The sooner you come out of your denial stage, the sooner you will truly arrive at peace with yourself. :) You are angry. You admire violent war generals because of this anger. I can understand that. Just be honest with yourself and this will soon be resolved. :) I know this stage of your life might be rough. Just know, you are not alone. There are plenty of other emos out there that feel that same way that you do, and who are going through the exact same process of self-realization as you are. :) One day soon, you will wake up, and decide to put on eye-liner and have a stupid hair style. And you know what. Thats okey. :D Thats just... okey. :)

That's a lot of smiley faces for an Emo-Goth as yourself!

[ejnomad07]

That's a lot of smiley faces for an Emo-Goth as yourself!

Its to throw you off his scent. ;)

[Yamamoto]

ANyone saying rommel, wthout an explaination is a sheeple. You have to know the man, and his accomplishments before you spew out a mindless answer.

I know enough about Rommel to justify my choice.

Throughout his career, he was very rash and very reckless. He was the type of guy to not give a flying fuck about getting hurt. While he was in France attempting to cross the Meuse River, he assisted engineers, waist deep in water, to complete a bridge while under heavy fire from Belgians. Guess who's tank was the first one to cross that bridge as well?

Simply a badass imo.

[Fro]

20th century brought two of the most destructive and technologically advanced world wars in the history of the mankind. Out of all the conflicts in the 20th century, focusing mainly on World War I & II, who would you consider the greatest military commander and strategist of the 20th century warfare?

Personally, I'd have to go with Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, who was a Soviet military commander, even eventually appointed as Marshal of the Soviet Union by Stalin himself. Although Stalin usually tried to eliminate or soften the individuals who he saw as potential threat to his position, he was too afraid to mess with Zhukov due to his military knowledge and victories against Third Reich. He's most famous for his victories in Operation Bagration, which cleared Nazi forces from Eastern Poland and Belorussia, and the Battle of Berlin, which was the final and decisive battle against the Nazis, capturing Hitler's stronghold, Berlin.

More information about him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Let me hear your thoughts.

He also beat the japanese which helped shaped the pacific war.

[Kusghuul]

General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
Obviously.

[Gaal]

General Akbar

He knows a trap when he sees one

FAIL

ITS ADMIRAL ACKBAR

[Ammon777]

Its to throw you off his scent. ;)

srsly :)

Nefastus, you srsly got burned, admit it. :)

[Teth]

srsly :)

Nefastus, you srsly got burned, admit it. :)
Why do you still have eyes to post with? God damnit, there really is no justice in this world.

[Gilithos]

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

You really can't compare to Rommels strategic know-how. His victories in North Africa were brilliant.

[Ammon777]

Why do you still have eyes to post with? God damnit, there really is no justice in this world.

mmk.

STFU Teth !!!

[Teth]

mmk.

STFU Teth !!!
Only if it will make you stop posting. God.

[ejnomad07]

Only if it will make you stop posting. God.

Somebody say my name? :confused:

[IthroZada]

Somebody say Brannoc's name? :confused:

fixed

Geeze, you should have gotten that one right supreme leader of the the Brannoc fan club

[ejnomad07]

fixed

Geeze, you should have gotten that one right supreme leader of the the Brannoc fan club

Your right..I hope he forgives me..:(

[Teth]

Your right..I hope he forgives me..:(
Brannoc does not forget. Brannoc does not forgive.

Sprite, on the other hand, does. So throw yourself upon his mercy. Offerings of kittens will put him in a fey mood.

Anyways. Rommel made a decent showing of sorta-almost nearly taking North Africa. Meanwhile Manstein masterminded the plan that broke France in a matter of weeks, took Sevastopol by storm, and pulled off miracles of counterattack versus the Soviets countless times.

Any general not on the Eastern Front = playing on easy mode tbh.

[Ammon777]

Only if it will make you stop posting. God.

Not all my posts are as hideous as the ones in this thread, mmk.

[Lictor]

fuck this thread isn't trollable.

Orly? And what about this:
Most wars and their generals are plain stupid!

[Teth]

Orly? And what about this:
Most wars and their generals are plain stupid!
u r rite

So who's your favouritest peace advocate, maaaaaaaan?

[Lictor]

u r rite

So who's your favouritest peace advocate, maaaaaaaan?

...the best of those remain unknown, so cannot tell.
And you're trying to troll me! :sly:

[Teth]

...the best of those remain unknown, so cannot tell.
And you're trying to troll me! :sly:
Me? Troll? Ten thousand times no, sir! It was a sincere question from the very depths of my heart. :(

[Ammon777]

u r rite

So who's your favouritest peace advocate, maaaaaaaan?

Jesse Jackson !!!

Oh wait. Thats was in another lifetime when I was black.

[Teth]

Jesse Jackson !!!

Oh wait. Thats was in another lifetime when I was black.
And there you go with your lies again.

[Ammon777]

And there you go with your lies again.
Artful fabrications. :)

[Teth]

Artful fabrications. :)
Treacherous falsities is more like it.

[Ammon777]

Treacherous falsities is more like it.
Wow man. I didnt mean to piss you off so bad. I'm sorry. :(

[Teth]

Wow man. I didnt mean to piss you off so bad. I'm sorry. :(
Again with the lies. Would it kill you to tell the truth for just once in your life?

[Ammon777]

Again with the lies. Would it kill you to tell the truth for just once in your life?

weak

[Starčevo]

PS the greatest general of all time was the japanese general that managed to move an entire battle fleet undetected and attack pearl harbour.

We let them.

[Justinian]

Cobra

[Dhig]

Rambo.
He is army and commander in one package.

[Tdog]

George S. Patton -If we would have let him there would have been no cold war because he wanted to roll though berlin into Moscow.

[Tharkon Fargor]

George S. Patton -If we would have let him there would have been no cold war because he wanted to roll though berlin into Moscow.

rofl. There would be no Europe you know...probably no America.
Don't you know that the biggest fear during the 50's was that Russia would roll straight into western Europe as it had a 3 times larger army or something?

Not to mention far more modern armour and rocketry.


(Yes, US/UK pwned in airpowah).

That to me shows that he was not much smarter than Hitler and Napoleon.

[[Malice]Bronson]

Hitler shouldn't even be considered in the same league as patton or napoleon, he is a fly on their shoes.

[Tdog]

rofl. There would be no Europe you know...probably no America.
Don't you know that the biggest fear during the 50's was that Russia would roll straight into western Europe as it had a 3 times larger army or something?

Not to mention far more modern armour and rocketry.


(Yes, US/UK pwned in airpowah).

That to me shows that he was not much smarter than Hitler and Napoleon.

I am not sure about that. I think with Patton at the lead the Allied forces would have been able to do what German was not able to do and that is beat the Russians.

Airpower wins Wars.

[Aragoni]

I am not sure about that. I think with Patton at the lead the Allied forces would have been able to do what German was not able to do and that is beat the Russians.

Airpower wins Wars.

History shows time after time that an attack on Russia is almost impossible. Airpower cannot solve the biggest issue, logistics (unless you got a gazillion supply-planes, of course). Bad infrastructure (especially back then), extreme cold during the winters and the Scorched Earth strategy is a nightmare.

[Tdog]

History shows time after time that an attack on Russia is almost impossible. Airpower cannot solve the biggest issue, logistics (unless you got a gazillion supply-planes, of course). Bad infrastructure (especially back then), extreme cold during the winters and the Scorched Earth strategy is a nightmare.

Oh I agree, not saying it would have worked I just think it would have gone better then German's try because of the Airpower.

Logistics would have been a non issue with a bunch of air bases in Europe.

[Tharkon Fargor]

I am not sure about that. I think with Patton at the lead the Allied forces would have been able to do what German was not able to do and that is beat the Russians.

Airpower wins Wars.

Germany obviously failed to prove that as they had the most advanced airpower in the world.
Besides Russia wasn't far behind, the Il-2 sturmovik was the best anti-tank plane in the world and the only thing that US/UK had better was really the strategic bombers (oh and Navy ofcs).

But those strategic bombers wouldn't be able to penetrate the sheer number of fighter planes the Russians had and it wouldn't be possible to escort them far into Russia. At the same time Russian Iosef Stalin tanks would've crushed all opposition together with Katushka self-prop. rocket artillery.
Also what you forget is that the communist resistance movements during these times were huge.

They had to supress communism in France and West Germany directly after WW2 just like they did after WW1 (Bavarian Socialist Republic, Spartacus League, Hungarian SSR) . They would've started blowing up your supply lines as they did with Germany supply lines and it is highly doubtfull that Germans and French citizens would move against their own communists.

As France and Germany had no real supply production of their own, hitting those supply lines would have devestated the allied army and would've meant complete victory in Europe for the red army.

[Tdog]

Germany obviously failed to prove that as they had the most advanced airpower in the world.
Besides Russia wasn't far behind, the Il-2 sturmovik was the best anti-tank plane in the world and the only thing that US/UK had better was really the strategic bombers (oh and Navy ofcs).

But those strategic bombers wouldn't be able to penetrate the sheer number of fighter planes the Russians had and it wouldn't be possible to escort them far into Russia. At the same time Russian Iosef Stalin tanks would've crushed all opposition together with Katushka self-prop. rocket artillery.
Also what you forget is that the communist resistance movements during these times were huge.

They had to supress communism in France and West Germany directly after WW2 just like they did after WW1 (Bavarian Socialist Republic, Spartacus League, Hungarian SSR) . They would've started blowing up your supply lines as they did with Germany supply lines and it is highly doubtfull that Germans and French citizens would move against their own communists.

As France and Germany had no real supply production of their own, hitting those supply lines would have devestated the allied army and would've meant complete victory in Europe for the red army.

Again we are playing the "What if" game. I know I started it but playing the "what If" game does us no good.

Also you are forgetting we had the P-51 Mustang, the best fighter of WWII to escort those bombers into Russia.

[Tharkon Fargor]

In fact when you think about it...Stalin was really a weak paranoid bastard.
He showed brutality against his own people and fellow communists.

But allied himself with the nazi hordes and dared not move against the capitalist bloodsuckers. Not even when he had so much support from the people in those nations.

Argh...Same with the Gulfwar. Exacly the same.
Excelent generals, fighting for an overall good cause. People wanting to rebell against Sadam and BAM weak leadership stops them.

Instead now, 10 years later they completely ruin Iraq.

Fuck these dumb politicians.

[Aragoni]

Oh I agree, not saying it would have worked I just think it would have gone better then German's try because of the Airpower.

Better yes, enough no.

Logistics would have been a non issue with a bunch of air bases in Europe.

Are you serious about supplying tens(?) of millions of troops with airplanes? :bang:

[BladeSLicer]

Russia is not impossible to invade, it's just those that do always seem to assume it will only take a few months. The Russians were hanging on by a thread when winter arrived in WWII. Had Hitler (or Napoleon) sent the proper equipment to deal with a Russian winter and not assumed they'd take the country within a couple months the Russians could have been overwhelmed.

Really, it's just been overconfidence and lack of preparation that has allowed the winter to save Russia in the past.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Again we are playing the "What if" game. I know I started it but playing the "what If" game does us no good.

Also you are forgetting we had the P-51 Mustang, the best fighter of WWII to escort those bombers into Russia.

P51's weren't escort fighters.
Escort fighters suck balls and are costly to produce.

Do you know the distance from like Nüremburg or Hamburg (aff Airstrips blown up). Woudl have to be France or London to Moscow or Kiev.
It is barely plausible that the Strategic Bombers of that time could fly such a distance. Let alone the escort planes.

[Tdog]

In fact when you think about it...Stalin was really a weak paranoid bastard.
He showed brutality against his own people and fellow communists.

But allied himself with the nazi hordes and dared not move against the capitalist bloodsuckers. Not even when he had so much support from the people in those nations.

Argh...Same with the Gulfwar. Exacly the same.
Excelent generals, fighting for an overall good cause. People wanting to rebell against Sadam and BAM weak leadership stops them.

Instead now, 10 years later they completely ruin Iraq.

Fuck these dumb politicians.

Agreed the politicians suck and are the cause of more military blunders the any general.

[Tdog]

Better yes, enough no.



Are you serious about supplying tens(?) of millions of troops with airplanes? :bang:

No I am saying that the planes would be in bases in europe so flying to russia is not that big of a deal as far as distance.

Are you seriously saying that we did not have supply lines setup in europe already?

[Tharkon Fargor]

Well Nazi Germany managed to supply huge formations in Stalingrad for some time.
But it is extremely costly and not something to be done lightly.
Remember the fuel costs + the fact that you can't use those planes for bombardment while supplying people with them.

This means that the only real advantage the allies had over USSR would become nill.

[Tdog]

P51's weren't escort fighters.
Escort fighters suck balls and are costly to produce.

Do you know the distance from like Nüremburg or Hamburg (aff Airstrips blown up). Woudl have to be France or London to Moscow or Kiev.
It is barely plausible that the Strategic Bombers of that time could fly such a distance. Let alone the escort planes.

Umm P-51s were Escort fighters my friend. They were designed to be long range escort fighters because the P-47 Thunderbolt did not have the range to escort the bombers all the way to berlin and back.

Shortly after realizing that the P-51 was a better plane then anything German could throw at it, they start using the fighter groups as a separate units from the bombers with their own goals on top of guarding the bombers.

"The P-51 flew most of its wartime missions as a bomber escort in raids over Germany, helping ensure Allied air superiority from early 1944"

"As well as being economical to produce, the Mustang was a fast, well-made, and highly durable aircraft"

They were flying from the UK to berlin during WWII, I don't think its much further to fly from Berlin to Moscow.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Umm P-51s were Escort fighters my friend. They were designed to be long range escort fighters because the P-47 Thunderbolt did not have the range to escort the bombers all the way to berlin and back.

Shortly after realizing that the P-51 was a better plane then anything German could throw at it, they start using the fighter groups as a separate units from the bombers with their own goals on top of guarding the bombers.

"The P-51 flew most of its wartime missions as a bomber escort in raids over Germany, helping ensure Allied air superiority from early 1944"

"As well as being economical to produce, the Mustang was a fast, well-made, and highly durable aircraft"

They were flying from the UK to berlin during WWII, I don't think its much further to fly from Berlin to Moscow.


Oh wow. I didn't know that. Usually Escort fighters are in the form of heavy fighters. Often twin seated such as P-38 lightning and Bf 110.

If P-51 had that range (London-America) then indeed it could put up a fight.

[Aragoni]

No I am saying that the planes would be in bases in europe so flying to russia is not that big of a deal as far as distance.

Are you seriously saying that we did not have supply lines setup in europe already?

You had supply lines in Europe, yes, but not in the Soviet which you wanted Patton to attack. Once the Allied army would be 100 miles (Swedish) into the Soviet Union they'd be in some deep shit due to the lack of infrastructure (hard for supply convoys to get to the fronts) and Scorched Earth (assuming they'd use this).
Of course, this is "What if?"-scenarios and I'm only guessing from what I've seen through history.

[Tdog]

Oh wow. I didn't know that. Usually Escort fighters are in the form of heavy fighters. Often twin seated such as P-38 lightning and Bf 110.

If P-51 had that range (London-America) then indeed it could put up a fight.

Yea the P-51 had drop tanks under each wing and they would use them and then drop them when they entered German Airspace to make the P-51 more maneuverable. Those drop tanks gave them the range.

The P-51 did have a negative spot, it was not the perfect plane. The fuel tank in the tail of the plane when full would make the plane tough to turn so pilots learned use the fuel in the tail tank after dropping the wing tanks.

I love WWII and its History. I watch and read about it as much as possiable.

[Kusghuul]

Shortly after realizing that the P-51 was a better plane then anything German could throw at it, they start using the fighter groups as a separate units from the bombers with their own goals on top of guarding the bombers.


Better than anything the Germans could throw at it? Messerschmitt 262 was a far superior plane, just happened to be too little, too late. A German flying ace, Franz Schall, shot down 10 P51's... Being able to fly 150 km/h (93 miles/h) faster than any allied plane, though not as maneuvrable, the Allies' main tactic was to get them while they were still on the ground, otherwise they were in trouble.

[Tdog]

Better than anything the Germans could throw at it? Messerschmitt 262 was a far superior plane, just happened to be too little, too late. A German flying ace, Franz Schall, shot down 10 P51's... Being able to fly 150 km/h (93 miles/h) faster than any allied plane, though not as maneuvrable, the Allies' main tactic was to get them while they were still on the ground, otherwise they were in trouble.

Well yea a Jet plane is better then a non jet plane but jet planes did not see alot of action at all in WWII.

Prop Planes the P-51D was the top of the line.

[Tdog]

You had supply lines in Europe, yes, but not in the Soviet which you wanted Patton to attack. Once the Allied army would be 100 miles (Swedish) into the Soviet Union they'd be in some deep shit due to the lack of infrastructure (hard for supply convoys to get to the fronts) and Scorched Earth (assuming they'd use this).
Of course, this is "What if?"-scenarios and I'm only guessing from what I've seen through history.

I am not saying your wrong, what I am saying is that if we could keep a supply line going from the UK to Berlin then I dont see why we could not keep a supply line going from Berlin to Moscow.

Now any war during at time in history againts Russia's homeland is never going to be easy nor is anything I think we will see anyone win in our life time.

[Kusghuul]

Well yea a Jet plane is better then a non jet plane but jet planes did not see alot of action at all in WWII.

Prop Planes the P-51D was the top of the line.

Aye, the P-51D was superior to almost all German aircraft at the end of the war, but by then, the German luftwaffe was all but destroyed; Hitler had no faith left in it, as demonstrated by the Fighter Pilots Revolt. But during the Second World War, Germany had air superiority most of the time, but lost it aboutish May 44.

[Kusghuul]

I am not saying your wrong, what I am saying is that if we could keep a supply line going from the UK to Berlin then I dont see why we could not keep a supply line going from Berlin to Moscow.

Now any war during at time in history againts Russia's homeland is never going to be easy nor is anything I think we will see anyone win in our life time.

Do you have any idea how long Europe is? Paris - Berlin is a lot shorter than Berlin - Moscow. And the Soviets could've held Norway, denying the Allies any boats in the North Atlantic. And the red zerg would have smashed anything.

[Tdog]

Aye, the P-51D was superior to almost all German aircraft at the end of the war, but by then, the German luftwaffe was all but destroyed; Hitler had no faith left in it, as demonstrated by the Fighter Pilots Revolt. But during the Second World War, Germany had air superiority most of the time, but lost it aboutish May 44.

Agreed. The luftwaffe was better trained and better equiped for the first part of the war but the Battle of Britain hurt the luftwaffe by losing planes and pilots and it hurt is status of being unbeatable.

When the P-51D showed up, it was over for the luftwaffe.

Although the P-47 thunderbolt was a even match for most german fighter planes.

[Tdog]

Do you have any idea how long Europe is? Paris - Berlin is a lot shorter than Berlin - Moscow. And the Soviets could've held Norway, denying the Allies any boats in the North Atlantic. And the red zerg would have smashed anything.

Yea I do understand how long Europe is.
The Allies had a supply line from Britian to Berlin at the end of the War, it is not out of the realm of possibility to think that the Allies could have created a supply line from Berlin to Moscow.

It would not be easy nor would it be something they could do without alot of creativity but lets also remember that America had a supply line from Pearl Harbor/West cost to Islands near mainland Japan.

Also remember that the only country to ever successfully fight a War on two fronts and win is America.

[Kusghuul]

Also remember that the only country to ever successfully fight a War on two fronts and win is America.

Britain beat Napoleon and the U.S. at the same time?

And when the P51D turned up, it was all over for the Luftwaffe anyway, the Russians were about to nick their petrol from Romania. At the end, the Germans switched of the ignition before landing to save fuel. But the Russians would just zerg the Allies; the Russians had a lot more troops in Europe than the Allies at the end of the war.

[Tdog]

Britain beat Napoleon and the U.S. at the same time?

And when the P51D turned up, it was all over for the Luftwaffe anyway, the Russians were about to nick their petrol from Romania. At the end, the Germans switched of the ignition before landing to save fuel. But the Russians would just zerg the Allies; the Russians had a lot more troops in Europe than the Allies at the end of the war.

When did Britain beat the US?

[Kusghuul]

When did Britain beat the US?

Napoleonic Wars, 1812. Someone decided to invade Canada. Went horribly wrong though.

[Tdog]

Napoleonic Wars, 1812. Someone decided to invade Canada. Went horribly wrong though.

I did not think Britain won the war of 1812 but I could be wrong.

[Lictor]

Me? Troll? Ten thousand times no, sir! It was a sincere question from the very depths of my heart. :(

From the know people from recent era it would surely be Mohandas Gandhi, he was a remarkable "advocate of peace". There were surely many more like him, but we don't know about them. Fame and glory (when not serving their purpose) is seldom important to them.

Always,when somebody is able to stand against an armed and aggressive force, remain alive long enough and/to accomplish something big and important in peaceful way, he deserves to be counted among advocates of peace.

[Lindorn]

For me it's somewhat of a tossup between Hans Guderian and Erwin Rommel. I'd say Rommel is the most resourceful of the two, but Guderian was easily as much of a strategic thinker. Both generals accomplished amazing things while being held back by their superiors constantly. Who knows what they could have accomplished being let loose with the proper resources.

[Lindorn]

Napoleonic Wars, 1812. Someone decided to invade Canada. Went horribly wrong though.

You fail at history.

[Viluin]

Rommel the Desert Tiger.

Cuz his name was kewl.

[BladeSLicer]

Napoleonic Wars, 1812. Someone decided to invade Canada. Went horribly wrong though.

It's funny how "White Peace" tranlsates into "victory for the British" for some people.

The fact is that by the time 1815 rolled around there was very little reason to continue the war (Napoleon was defeated and the british therefore stopped forcing American sailors into their navy, which was a man cause of the war).

While the Americans got off to a terrible start in the war, once 1814 rolled around they were making some real progress in every theater and had taken control of some key areas, such as Lake Eerie. They had also affectively annihilated the Indian forces opposing them and had finally figured out how to properly mobilize and deploy their troops.

Basically, this being the first real war America participated in, they were slapped around at first but quickly got their acts together. By 1815, with no real reason to continue fighting, with America regaining most of whatever ground they had lost, and with America having finally gotten the hang of mobilizing their troops and deploying them efficiently, both sides were very willing to simply call for a White Peace.

The War of 1812 was actually a major morale booster for America for the following reasons.

1. They held their own against the British/British Loyalists in Canada/Indian alliance without outside assistance

2. They actually fared far better at sea in one on one sea battles than the British, demonstrating superior seamanship.

3. The Battle of New Orleans (fought after the ratification of the Treaty of Ghent) was one of the biggest and most lopsided victories in American history.

4. Ended the threat the Western Indians had posed since the founding of the USA

The British Loyalists in Canada were also rather proud of their performance in the war as well, as they'd held off the American invasion.

Really, then, I have trouble seeing how anyone can declare victory in this war. It was a "White Peace", meaning no one really lost anything, and the only actual territorial change following the war was that the Americans kept the formerly-British Carleton Island. Therefore, it seems silly that the war should be counted as a "win" for anyone.

[Kusghuul]

Translated into victory for the Brits, as we beat Napoleon and saw off the Americanos.

Edit: Oh, and we burned Washington.

[Fizbanui]

Rommel the Desert Tiger.

Cuz his name was kewl.

Rommel der Wüstenfuchs....

Fox not Tiger

[Tdog]

Rommel der Wüstenfuchs....

Fox not Tiger

Either way Rommel got beat by Patton.

[Tdog]

Translated into victory for the Brits, as we beat Napoleon and saw off the Americanos.

Edit: Oh, and we burned Washington.

Good job on burning Washington, please come do it again.

[MinusInnocence]

Translated into victory for the Brits, as we beat Napoleon and saw off the Americanos.

Edit: Oh, and we burned Washington.Wait, so you admit you razed a nation's capital to the ground and still failed to re-conquer it? Were the British retarded or something? Apparently they still are.

[BladeSLicer]

Either way Rommel got beat by Patton.

He read his book! :p

[akrippler]

Me for the invention of mag juggling, no commander in history has ever microd as hard as i do.

[BladeSLicer]

Wait, so you admit you razed a nation's capital to the ground and still failed to re-conquer it? Were the British retarded or something? Apparently they still are.

It was more of a raid in the hopes of demoralizing the population (which it temporarily did).

[Lindorn]

Translated into victory for the Brits, as we beat Napoleon and saw off the Americanos.

Edit: Oh, and we burned Washington.

At the end of the day, the British had 2,037 casualties: 291 dead (including three senior generals), 1,262 wounded, and 484 captured or missing.[15][16][17][18] The Americans had 71 casualties: 13 dead, 39 wounded, and 19 missing.[15][19][20]

This battle was led by Waterloo officers. Owned.

[Tdog]

Wait, so you admit you razed a nation's capital to the ground and still failed to re-conquer it? Were the British retarded or something? Apparently they still are.

What do expect from a nation that lost the new world to a bunch of farmers with muskets that had no training, no funding and no fighting experence?

Britain had the best trained most experence fighters, the red coats, and still lost to a bunch of untrained civilians.

But what does that say about the French who could not beat the english even though a bunch of untrained civilians beat them.

[Kusghuul]

1. They held their own against the British/British Loyalists in Canada/Indian alliance without outside assistance

They attacked the Canadians/British/Natives and got their arses handed to them. Britain was fighting a defensive battle agains the U.S. anyway.


2. They actually fared far better at sea in one on one sea battles than the British, demonstrating superior seamanship.
alliance without outside assistance

The Brits had smaller boats and cannons, and still managed to cripple the whaling industry and blockade the U.S. They were also facing largely inexperienced sailors, many of whom were American.


3. The Battle of New Orleans (fought after the ratification of the Treaty of Ghent) was one of the biggest and most lopsided victories in American history.

True, but that's like saying the French won the war because of Austerlitz. Britain also captured Fort Bowyer. Occupying Washington D.C. wasn't too shabby either.


4. Ended the threat the Western Indians had posed since the founding of the USA

There were still other Natives to go "Manifest Destiny" on. Sitting Bull was born about this time too.


Really, then, I have trouble seeing how anyone can declare victory in this war. It was a "White Peace", meaning no one really lost anything, and the only actual territorial change following the war was that the Americans kept the formerly-British Carleton Island. Therefore, it seems silly that the war should be counted as a "win" for anyone.

The Brits were fighting a largely defensive war against the U.S., as it was preoccupied with fighting France. The Brits count it as a victory, as you were fighting on France's side and attacked first and didn't get anywhere.

[Fizbanui]

This my List of th e great military commanders, yay all WW2

USA (ETO) - Patton

USA (PTO) - "Chesty" Puller

Germany - Rommel

UK - Montgomery

Russia - Zhukov

Japan - Yamamoto

there is no greatest...

[Harmar]

I say it's a tie between Jesus and Larry Hoover

[Kusghuul]

What do expect from a nation that lost the new world to a bunch of farmers with muskets that had no training, no funding and no fighting experence?

Britain had the best trained most experence fighters, the red coats, and still lost to a bunch of untrained civilians.

But what does that say about the French who could not beat the english even though a bunch of untrained civilians beat them.

Oh, you got some help from the Frogs and the irish. And Spain and the Dutch Republic. And you had an insanely higher number of soldiers.

[Tdog]

Oh, you got some help from the Frogs and the irish. And Spain and the Dutch Republic. And you had an insanely higher number of soldiers.

Yea your right we had help for the American Revolution but all good Nations ask for help when fighting a war.

[Tdog]

This my List of th e great military commanders, yay all WW2

USA (ETO) - Patton

USA (PTO) - "Chesty" Puller

Germany - Rommel

UK - Montgomery

Russia - Zhukov

Japan - Yamamoto

there is no greatest...


Nice List.

but for USA (PTO) - Douglas MacArthur

[Kusghuul]

Yea your right we had help for the American Revolution but all good Nations ask for help when fighting a war.

Britain showed up with just over 100,000 soldiers, including Loyalists, mercenaries, Natives etc. U.S. with 250,000 soldiers;p 90% of your gunpowder came from France in 1776;p

[Tdog]

Britain showed up with just over 100,000 soldiers, including Loyalists, mercenaries, Natives etc. U.S. with 250,000 soldiers;p 90% of your gunpowder came from France in 1776;p

We didn't really have soldiers considering we didn't have an army in the beginning of the Revolution. We had milita but 100,000 british soldiers who have been highly trained and well equiped should have won that war.

[BladeSLicer]

They attacked the Canadians/British/Natives and got their arses handed to them. Britain was fighting a defensive battle agains the U.S. anyway.

Yes, I stated that the Americans faired poorly at first (it being our first real war and all), but later in the war they began winning some big victories and taking control of some key areas. Also, no one got spanked worse throughout the entirety of the war than the British did at New Orleans! Thousands of the British's best, veteran troops slaughtered by a group of green American soldiers, some smugglers, and some pirates. Lawl!


The Brits had smaller boats and cannons, and still managed to cripple the whaling industry and blockade the U.S. They were also facing largely inexperienced sailors, many of whom were American.

Aye, all I said is that the Americans demonstrated superior seamanship (which was true). They didn't have nearly enough ships to prevent a blockade, and one of the benefits of the war was that it instigated the US to invest heavily in updating their navy.


True, but that's like saying the French won the war because of Austerlitz. Britain also captured Fort Bowyer. Occupying Washington D.C. wasn't too shabby either.

I wasn't saying this was a reason to consider the war a victory, but that it was one of the factors in America being proud of their performance. Besides, you were in Washington for literally all of 24 hours, so that's hardly "occupying".

I suppose, though, that burning washington was the one invasion goal that you guys did accomplish (the others being Lake Champlain, New Orleans, and Baltimore), so kudos on that. Unfortunately, it more infuriated the Americans than it did demoralize them.


There were still other Natives to go "Manifest Destiny" on. Sitting Bull was born about this time too.

Yes, but for the time being, the American borders were finally secure for the first time!


The Brits were fighting a largely defensive war against the U.S., as it was preoccupied with fighting France. The Brits count it as a victory, as you were fighting on France's side and attacked first and didn't get anywhere.

Actually, you guys had an entire invasion plan that you'd forumlated far prior to the War (in the anticipated event that the two nations actually did go to war) as I mentioned above, and DC was the only part of it that you accomplished. Also, we weren't fighting on France's side, we just demanded the right to trade with France if we so chose to (that being second reason we went to war, the first being your impressment of american sailors into your navy).


Again, I'm not saying America won the war, I'm saying that it was a "white peace" i.e. nobody one. The British did have goals far beyond a mere white peace, but the Americans were able to rally in order to avoid having to give up any territorial concessions. Besides, by the time 1815 rolled around we were free to trade with France again and the British had stopped their policy of impressment, so there was literally no reason to keep on fighting!

Ironically, the War of 1812 was rather beneficial to America, even without us having actually gained anything.

[BladeSLicer]

We didn't really have soldiers considering we didn't have an army in the beginning of the Revolution. We had milita but 100,000 british soldiers who have been highly trained and well equiped should have won that war.

I'd say so, considering they subjugated hundreds of millions of people in India with a similarly sized force. ;)

[Viluin]

Rommel der Wüstenfuchs....

Fox not Tiger

Fox.. Tiger.. they both have 4 legs. I don't care!

[Fizbanui]

Fox.. Tiger.. they both have 4 legs. I don't care!

Eh but you should care, because you thought that desert tiger is a kewl name therefore you like Rommel the most...

but it's desert fox..so your opinion plxxxx :sly:

[Dredgon]

20th century brought two of the most destructive and technologically advanced world wars in the history of the mankind. Out of all the conflicts in the 20th century, focusing mainly on World War I & II, who would you consider the greatest military commander and strategist of the 20th century warfare?

Personally, I'd have to go with Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, who was a Soviet military commander, even eventually appointed as Marshal of the Soviet Union by Stalin himself. Although Stalin usually tried to eliminate or soften the individuals who he saw as potential threat to his position, he was too afraid to mess with Zhukov due to his military knowledge and victories against Third Reich. He's most famous for his victories in Operation Bagration, which cleared Nazi forces from Eastern Poland and Belorussia, and the Battle of Berlin, which was the final and decisive battle against the Nazis, capturing Hitler's stronghold, Berlin.

More information about him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Let me hear your thoughts.

This, fucking great guy. The only man Stalin feared.

[Warhawkz]

General Rommel; military genious

[Dredgon]

General Rommel; military genious

Still Montgomery kicked his ass :rolleyes:

[BladeSLicer]

Still Montgomery kicked his ass :rolleyes:

Patton!

[Saturday Saint]

Napoleon.

[Viluin]

Eh but you should care, because you thought that desert tiger is a kewl name therefore you like Rommel the most...

but it's desert fox..so your opinion plxxxx :sly:

No, I thought Rommel was a kewl name. It's Dutch for junk, lol.

[Fizbanui]

No, I thought Rommel was a kewl name. It's Dutch for junk, lol.

:lmao:

[Mulambo]

I read the first five pages and no one mentioned yamamoto. So, uh, he was pretty good, obv.

[Saturday Saint]

I read the first five pages and no one mentioned yamamoto. So, uh, he was pretty good, obv.

Isn't Yamamoto that dude with the funny accent in the Terran's strongest unit from Starcraft?

[Mulambo]

I don't know, but he was the admiral of the japanese navy in wwii.

[Fizbanui]

I mentioned Yamamoto in mylist ..page 10 :sly:

[Yamamoto]

Isn't Yamamoto that dude with the funny accent in the Terran's strongest unit from Starcraft?

You're thinking of the Yamato Gun that the Terran Battlecruiser has.

Also, I'd like to reinstate that Rommel is a badass: the only commander I know of that helped build a bridge across a french river, waist deep in water while under heavy fire. He then got in his tank and was the first MF'er to drive across. Top that shit.

[alhazred]

20th century brought two of the most destructive and technologically advanced world wars in the history of the mankind. Out of all the conflicts in the 20th century, focusing mainly on World War I & II, who would you consider the greatest military commander and strategist of the 20th century warfare?

Personally, I'd have to go with Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, who was a Soviet military commander, even eventually appointed as Marshal of the Soviet Union by Stalin himself. Although Stalin usually tried to eliminate or soften the individuals who he saw as potential threat to his position, he was too afraid to mess with Zhukov due to his military knowledge and victories against Third Reich. He's most famous for his victories in Operation Bagration, which cleared Nazi forces from Eastern Poland and Belorussia, and the Battle of Berlin, which was the final and decisive battle against the Nazis, capturing Hitler's stronghold, Berlin.

More information about him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Let me hear your thoughts.

Patton lets face it when the chips are down he knew how to slap a bitch

[Incanam]

Mahatma Gandhi. He toppled the British Empire by not eating. How skillfull is that?

[Wufiavelli]

Joseph Broz Tito of Yugoslavia. Kicks the Nazis ass with no outside help leading one of the most impressive guerrilla wars in history.

[Kusghuul]

Actually, you guys had an entire invasion plan that you'd forumlated far prior to the War (in the anticipated event that the two nations actually did go to war) as I mentioned above, and DC was the only part of it that you accomplished. Also, we weren't fighting on France's side, we just demanded the right to trade with France if we so chose to (that being second reason we went to war, the first being your impressment of american sailors into your navy).


Again, I'm not saying America won the war, I'm saying that it was a "white peace" i.e. nobody one. The British did have goals far beyond a mere white peace, but the Americans were able to rally in order to avoid having to give up any territorial concessions. Besides, by the time 1815 rolled around we were free to trade with France again and the British had stopped their policy of impressment, so there was literally no reason to keep on fighting!

Ironically, the War of 1812 was rather beneficial to America, even without us having actually gained anything.

it wasn't really odd that Britain had a plan formulated; the Lousiana purchase sort of put the U.S. at odds with the rest of the non-French speaking world. But it was a victory, imo, as we defeated Napoleon whilst holding off the U.S. on the other flank.

[Wufiavelli]

Also looking at war as sporting event with win/lose can be kind of distorting what was actually happening on the ground.

[Robertek]

I'm going to go with just about every officer in the Third Reich during their period of war.
Say what you want about the Nazis but they did take over the whole of Europe in a handful of years.

The allies weren't really that tough they simply had the advantage of having larger countries with more resources backing them. One vs one no country in the world could have taken the Germans down.

[Honest Bill]

I haven't bothered reading the thread, but i'll wager that there have been at least ten people posting with Wikipedia open and pretending to be knowledgable about warfare.

You know who you are .... It's not big and it's not clever

[BladeSLicer]

it wasn't really odd that Britain had a plan formulated; the Lousiana purchase sort of put the U.S. at odds with the rest of the non-French speaking world. But it was a victory, imo, as we defeated Napoleon whilst holding off the U.S. on the other flank.

The victory was in the war against Napoleon. It was simply a white peace with America as both sides got what they wanted (as soon as the napoleonic wars were over), technically lost nothing, and no longer wished to fight!

[spetznaz007]

Zhukov, as with out him, who knows wtf would have happend in the 2nd world war.

[kingpin]

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

this

[Dredgon]

Patton!

No noob! It was Monty who whopped Rommel's ass in Africa.

[Atnas]

Montgomery kind of sucked.

[Dredgon]

Montgomery kind of sucked.

He did well in Africa, but when he planned Operation market garden it was a complete and utter fail.

[Kusghuul]

The victory was in the war against Napoleon. It was simply a white peace with America as both sides got what they wanted (as soon as the napoleonic wars were over), technically lost nothing, and no longer wished to fight!

i see where you're coming from, but when you're attacked and see the enemy off, i'd class it as a victory.

[Tdog]

I'm going to go with just about every officer in the Third Reich during their period of war.
Say what you want about the Nazis but they did take over the whole of Europe in a handful of years.

The allies weren't really that tough they simply had the advantage of having larger countries with more resources backing them. One vs one no country in the world could have taken the Germans down.

I'd wager that America could have beat Germany one vs one during WWII.

[Tdog]

I haven't bothered reading the thread, but i'll wager that there have been at least ten people posting with Wikipedia open and pretending to be knowledgable about warfare.

You know who you are .... It's not big and it's not clever

Wow thanks for posting this useless information. Next time, dont troll.

[Staatsschutz]

Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov

that happens when you dont know a thing about ww2. he only copied the german tactics

[Fizbanui]

I'd wager that America could have beat Germany one vs one during WWII.

No

[Aragoni]

I'd wager that America could have beat Germany one vs one during WWII.

Elaborate please why you think so.

[biggunsar]

I'd wager that America could have beat Germany one vs one during WWII.

i highly doubt that.

if the US was the only country germany needed to fight. Germany would have won.

Their airpower would have not been finished off, thier tanks would have been designed to combat yours. (although, the tanks up until 1945 were far superior than american tanks)

You would have lost. Because you would have to consistently do land invasions. No way you could have amassed the heavy tanks needed to push back a "never been scratched" werhmacht.
They would have thousands of tigers. by 1945 or sooner (due to the fact that england and other nations were not bombing the shit out of them) would have consistantly been at full industrial capacity.

I think your dead wrong.

[Tdog]

i highly doubt that.

if the US was the only country germany needed to fight. Germany would have won.

Their airpower would have not been finished off, thier tanks would have been designed to combat yours. (although, the tanks up until 1945 were far superior than american tanks)

You would have lost. Because you would have to consistently do land invasions. No way you could have amassed the heavy tanks needed to push back a "never been scratched" werhmacht.
They would have thousands of tigers. by 1945 or sooner (due to the fact that england and other nations were not bombing the shit out of them) would have consistantly been at full industrial capacity.

I think your dead wrong.

Okay but how does Germany bring its troops and equipment to mainland America?
How does Germany win if we dont attack Europe but instead defend America?

Now if you say that the war had to be fought in Europe then Yes America would lose based on what you already said.

Again I believe America vs germany, America wins based on the fact that Germany had not way of moving troops and equipment to America.

So at worst it would have been a draw because Germany would never be able to leave europe to fight mainland America and America could never invade Europe, so its a stall mate.

You can play the What if game all you want the fact of the matter is that Germany had no way of moving troops and equipment all the way to America and without the ability to wage war in America, then Germany cannot win the war.

You are correct that Germany had better tanks but what you fail to mention is that America could out produce Germany. We would have more tanks, more planes, more equipment then Germany.

[Kusghuul]

Okay but how does Germany bring its troops and equipment to mainland America?
How does Germany win if we dont attack Europe but instead defend America?

Now if you say that the war had to be fought in Europe then Yes America would lose based on what you already said.

Again I believe America vs germany, America wins based on the fact that Germany had not way of moving troops and equipment to America.

So at worst it would have been a draw because Germany would never be able to leave europe to fight mainland America and America could never invade Europe, so its a stall mate.

You can play the What if game all you want the fact of the matter is that Germany had no way of moving troops and equipment all the way to America and without the ability to wage war in America, then Germany cannot win the war.

You are correct that Germany had better tanks but what you fail to mention is that America could out produce Germany. We would have more tanks, more planes, more equipment then Germany.

Bismarck. No single Allies ship could take it down. How long did it take for the Allies to finally stop the Wolf Packs in the Atlantic? The Depression was still fucking up America and the Third Reich was going strong! The Germans could perhaps even have landed in Mexico, because back then, they were urging them to attack you. But i doubt either side could've won. Fortress Europe would've held the Americans.

[Tdog]

Bismarck. No single Allies ship could take it down. How long did it take for the Allies to finally stop the Wolf Packs in the Atlantic? The Depression was still fucking up America and the Third Reich was going strong! The Germans could perhaps even have landed in Mexico, because back then, they were urging them to attack you. But i doubt either side could've won. Fortress Europe would've held the Americans.

Again, Fortress Europe would not have fallen to the Americans nor would America fall to Germany, it would have been a stall mate.

The Bismarck was a great ship but one ship cannot win you a war. The U boats were a big problem but just like we did during the war, America would have figured out a solution.

Landing in Mexico would have been a huge mistake, I feel sorry for any foreign army that tries to invade Texas even today let alone back then.

The one thing that I think most people forget is that general American's would stop at nothing to destory a foreign army on our soil. The foreign army would have to have millions of men for each and every state which I still don't think would be enough.

Just think about it for a second, could you image a foreign army entering a city like Detroit? What would the gangs do to them? What would the hunters do?

If American has one good thing going for it is our ability to adapt and over come when it comes to war.

[Dredgon]

Again, Fortress Europe would not have fallen to the Americans nor would America fall to Germany, it would have been a stall mate.

The Bismarck was a great ship but one ship cannot win you a war. The U boats were a big problem but just like we did during the war, America would have figured out a solution.

Landing in Mexico would have been a huge mistake, I feel sorry for any foreign army that tries to invade Texas even today let alone back then.

The one thing that I think most people forget is that general American's would stop at nothing to destory a foreign army on our soil. The foreign army would have to have millions of men for each and every state which I still don't think would be enough.

Just think about it for a second, could you image a foreign army entering a city like Detroit? What would the gangs do to them? What would the hunters do?

If American has one good thing going for it is our ability to adapt and over come when it comes to war.
It would basically become the eastern front if the US didn't have a fairly large standing army.
I doubt "hunters" and "gang members" or even rednecks would really be a problem for them.

Unless the US had large stockpiles of weaponry, lots, and I mean LOTS, of trained soldiers then they would stand a chance.
Then again if Germany invaded American soil then the depression would really hit in and it would almost/collapse the nation.
It's a presumption anyways we can never really know what would have happened.

[AngusFinch]

Ok. Someone please explain the logic as to how Germany couldn't possibly reach the US? They weren't just some bubbling group of 3rd World morons. They could have figured out a way. How did the Americans get their troops to England? You don't think the Germans could manage getting men to the Caribbean or South America? Maybe they could BUY MEXICO!

Not to mention that if the US didn't steal the German scientists, they would have had nukes and long range bombers. ICBMs. They were all in development.


Just think about it for a second, could you image a foreign army entering a city like Detroit? What would the gangs do to them? What would the hunters do?

If American has one good thing going for it is our ability to adapt and over come when it comes to war.
Can you imagine if the Germans entered a city like Warsaw? What would the labor unions do then? What would the Jews do? Would would the gangs do? Because a city is American it can stand against anything, I guess; because they've got their big Eagle and a Toby Keith song in the JukeBox.

America has never been invaded like that. Think about the Civil War. Did you see any unending Urban Guerrilla war when the Union armies marched in? How do you know they have this fighting spirit? Because a song or a show on PBS told you they did? The average American is famous for sitting back and taking it.

[Viluin]

Just think about it for a second, could you image a foreign army entering a city like Detroit? What would the gangs do to them? What would the hunters do?

Nothing, because Detroit would be bombed to hell first.

[Tharkon Fargor]

USA 1 vs 1 Germany = roflmao.
Germany = Most advanced nation on the planet at that time.
If Germany would've stopped the Normandy landings and held of Russia then in 2 years we would be singing "heil the führer" here in Sweden.

[Tdog]

Ok. Someone please explain the logic as to how Germany couldn't possibly reach the US? They weren't just some bubbling group of 3rd World morons. They could have figured out a way. How did the Americans get their troops to England? You don't think the Germans could manage getting men to the Caribbean or South America? Maybe they could BUY MEXICO!

Not to mention that if the US didn't steal the German scientists, they would have had nukes and long range bombers. ICBMs. They were all in development.

Its called force projection. Germany does not have force projection. American has force projection. Hense no war has been fought on American's homeland since the civil war.

Well the US would of still stolen the same scientists either way.

[Tdog]

Nothing, because Detroit would be bombed to hell first.

yea that is true.

[Tdog]

USA 1 vs 1 Germany = roflmao.
Germany = Most advanced nation on the planet at that time.
If Germany would've stopped the Normandy landings and held of Russia then in 2 years we would be singing "heil the führer" here in Sweden.

But would America be speaking German?

Germany was the most advanced nation on the planet at the time but shortly after 1944, American became the most advanced nation, whos to say that still would not have happened.

Again we are playing the What if game, a game that nobody can win. We can keep debating it for as long as you want, its not skin off my ass.

[Tharkon Fargor]

lol no. Germany was the most advanced nation even at the end of the war.
They had fucking ground to air missiles and shit.
Hitler was just slowing development down and being a dumbass.

I doubt America would be in the hands of Germany right away though but it would be kicked out of Europe and when the Soviety Union would finally fall and all the "inferior races" killed then Japan and Germany would marsh over Alaska and destroy the last bastion of freedom left.

[Tdog]

Ok. Someone please explain the logic as to how Germany couldn't possibly reach the US? They weren't just some bubbling group of 3rd World morons. They could have figured out a way. How did the Americans get their troops to England? You don't think the Germans could manage getting men to the Caribbean or South America? Maybe they could BUY MEXICO!

Not to mention that if the US didn't steal the German scientists, they would have had nukes and long range bombers. ICBMs. They were all in development.


Can you imagine if the Germans entered a city like Warsaw? What would the labor unions do then? What would the Jews do? Would would the gangs do? Because a city is American it can stand against anything, I guess; because they've got their big Eagle and a Toby Keith song in the JukeBox.

America has never been invaded like that. Think about the Civil War. Did you see any unending Urban Guerrilla war when the Union armies marched in? How do you know they have this fighting spirit? Because a song or a show on PBS told you they did? The average American is famous for sitting back and taking it.

No, I know the average American would not stand by and let another country rule them. Its pretty common knowledge considering the Milita's we have in most states are dieing to get a chance to use their toys.

The civil war was a different time, I mean come on, how many people do you know today that would stand in a line and shot at each other from less then a 100 yards?

I know they have the fighting spirit because America has proven it, they have proven the resolve to defeat what they see as their enemy time and again.

Hense why we produced more military equipment then anyone else during WWII and we did not join the war at the start. When the average American decides to do something, it gets done.

[Tdog]

lol no. Germany was the most advanced nation even at the end of the war.
They had fucking ground to air missiles and shit.
Hitler was just slowing development down and being a dumbass.

I doubt America would be in the hands of Germany right away though but it would be kicked out of Europe and when the Soviety Union would finally fall and all the "inferior races" killed then Japan and Germany would marsh over Alaska and destroy the last bastion of freedom left.

I beg to disagree with you on the most advance nation at the end of the war considering American had Nukes and German did not.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Germany had the knowledge to build them, just not the resources. They attempted to send out Submarines to collect resources but they were all pwned.

[Viluin]

When the average American decides to do something, it gets done.

Except when it's about losing weight.

[Tdog]

Except when it's about losing weight.

Well American's in general have not decided to lose weight yet.

[Matriel]

Howlin Mad Smith
Chesty Puller

Real men. Not pampered sissy Germans.

[Lictor]

Howlin Mad Smith
Chesty Puller

Real men. Not pampered sissy Germans.

Now we know your idols.
Chesty Puller's biography is indeed impressive.

[Matriel]

Now we know your idols.
Chesty Puller's biography is indeed impressive.

Smith took Iwo Jima when by rights no one should have done it. And basically made what became the 1st Mar Div able to hold Guadalcanal when also no one should have done so.

Chesty is just flat out amazing. I always found it funny that runners could never find his CP because it was always so close to the line. On one of the islands, his Batallion CP was even closer than the CP's of his Company commanders. That shit is ridiculous.

[hostileEffect]

Except when it's about losing weight.

There are still those of us who have the dedication to forge a strong body, and its not limited to America.

[Lictor]

Chesty is just flat out amazing. I always found it funny that runners could never find his CP because it was always so close to the line. On one of the islands, his Batallion CP was even closer than the CP's of his Company commanders. That shit is ridiculous.

I miss one unknown to make this sentence understandable for me and this unknown is CP. Unfold this acronym.

[Tdog]

I miss one unknown to make this sentence understandable for me and this unknown is CP. Unfold this acronym.

CP = Command post

[Lictor]

CP = Command post

Thanks, Tdog.

[Mulambo]

Well American's in general have not decided to lose weight yet.

They should play Biggest Loser in primetime on every channel (just kidding, I hate that show).

[kordoyn]

CP = Crack Pipe


Fix't

[AngusFinch]

Allen Ginsberg! The pen is mightier than the sword, especially those wiggly pens that you put batteries in.

[Skyborn]

I was to lazy to read 15 pages but i would nominate Stonewall Jackson...wait...wrong century. Ok Hannibal...crap. Alex...nevermind.

[Matriel]

I was to lazy to read 15 pages but i would nominate Stonewall Jackson...wait...wrong century. Ok Hannibal...crap. Alex...nevermind.

Say Vandegrift and all will be forgiven.

[Skyborn]

Say Vandegrift and all will be forgiven.

I hate to agree with you...but since I am feeling particularly bleh right now I will since it is the easiest.

Matriel is right, there I said it.

[Lictor]

I hate to agree with you...but since I am feeling particularly bleh right now I will since it is the easiest.

Matriel is right, there I said it.

I don't like it, when he crushes everyone under this 24,000+ mark! :rolleyes:

[Fizbanui]

I don't like it, when he crushes everyone under this 24,000+ mark! :rolleyes:

It's just sick..even for me as german..

[Lysandor]

Admiral Raymond Ames Spruance