When the exception becomes the law. Free speech zones?

[Tharkon Fargor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones

...So instead of having exceptions for special events where demonstrations are forbidden close by, demonstrators are forced into cramped, fenced areas while all other areas are forbidden during the specific event?
Not to mention that demonstrations and gatherings of people should be allowed anywhere.


Three protest parks were designated in Beijing during the 2008 Summer Olympics, at the suggestion of the IOC. All 77 applications to protest there had been withdrawn or denied, and no protests took place. Four persons who applied to protest were arrested or sentenced to reeducation.[52][53] Only other nation to have these is the "democratic" Peoples Republic of China.

Except of Canada that is looking into it now since the godamn move towards an American Union


It's really comming.

[Thrill_KIll]

Keep in mind, that your right to free speech is not a right to prevent me from having my own assembly. They are a way to make sure both parties are allowed to practice their rights, and not have one group try to prevent you from having yours.

Imagine allowing liberals roam free and saying whatever they want during a McCain speech. Or neo-cons roaming the DNC while Obama was trying to speak.

Our rights are sacred, but too many people seem to think their rights are more important than the one's they don't like.

[Tharkon Fargor]

So the democratic convention should be allowed to happen in an open place and a big stadium/theather while those who protest against it (or the opinions of those in it) should be fenced in with police around them?

Don't even try to justify something like this.
We've had freedom of assembly in western Europe and America for almost a hundred years. It has rarely been a problem and even if it has...I'd rather take the problems that might occure and deal with them than fence in every group who wants to speak.
It's disgusting.

[Yobaj]

I am from Texas and I say that they should beat down those hippies! BRB, I have to find a mexican kid to kill while he is on his knees!

[Mr.LichTwitch]

So the democratic convention should be allowed to happen in an open place and a big stadium/theather while those who protest against it (or the opinions of those in it) should be fenced in with police around them?

Don't even try to justify something like this.
We've had freedom of assembly in western Europe and America for almost a hundred years. It has rarely been a problem and even if it has...I'd rather take the problems that might occure and deal with them than fence in every group who wants to speak.
It's disgusting.

Fencing people off isn't the answer IMO, but neither is letting them roam free because that will undoubtedly lead to mass harassment.

[hardboiled]

Oh shut up overexcited kid and try to think a bit more objectively about it, you should join abovetopsecret.com or whatever.

I don't know about Sweden but here at least you need to get permission to protest and it's tightly controlled where you can have your protests.
This is a benign, non-issue.

[IthroZada]

I am from Texas and I say that they should beat down those hippies! BRB, I have to find a mexican kid to kill while he is on his knees!

Fuck you to....

But seriously, that is pretty messed, you are allowed your freedom of speech, it just has to be way over there in that cage, and you cant say anything until we say so, after everyone else has left, enjoy!

[Battle]

I was at the Obama rally today at the University of Nevada and there was a fenced off section with security for the protesters.

[Caffy]

I like the free speech zones on college campuses(campii?).:ninja:

lulz. :lmao:

[Apex Vertigo]

Sounds like a blatant denial of rights to me.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Oh shut up overexcited kid and try to think a bit more objectively about it, you should join abovetopsecret.com or whatever.

I don't know about Sweden but here at least you need to get permission to protest and it's tightly controlled where you can have your protests.
This is a benign, non-issue.

No my brainwashed friend. In America you had the right to assembly anywhere once upon a time. Remember, that is often what we are critical of brutal regimés. Because they force demonstrators (if any) in small spaces, controll them tightly and often refuse them to have a demonstration.

Your constitution guarantees you freedom of assembly and so does ours.

[Baralis]

So the democratic convention should be allowed to happen in an open place and a big stadium/theather while those who protest against it (or the opinions of those in it) should be fenced in with police around them?

Don't even try to justify something like this.
We've had freedom of assembly in western Europe and America for almost a hundred years. It has rarely been a problem and even if it has...I'd rather take the problems that might occure and deal with them than fence in every group who wants to speak.
It's disgusting.

Back at this again are we :bang:

Anyway just because you have the right to express your view does not give you the right to disrupt others. I dont want to look it up but I believe it is written in the law something similar to that.

Use your head. What do you think would happen in ALOT of assemblys if mass people were permitted to speak out thier opposing views from anywhere? Im willing to bet that most would become totaly disrupted with riots insuing. We would get very little done.

I have an idea. With your attitude about all of this you could go demonstrate your dislike! :lmao:

[Tharkon Fargor]

That's the thing. They were permitted. Once upon a time I guess.
You know...People are actually independent, intelligent beings.

But I guess we need a police state to just make sure that we never step out of line. You see, these "Free speech" zones didn't exist long back in the past. I wonder how we managed then...

[Thrill_KIll]

That's the thing. They were permitted. Once upon a time I guess.
You know...People are actually independent, intelligent beings.

But I guess we need a police state to just make sure that we never step out of line. You see, these "Free speech" zones didn't exist long back in the past. I wonder how we managed then...


Honestly, because once upon a time, people were respectful of each other and had some proper upbringing. Now a days, everyone thinks it's their right to tell you what a cocksucker you are for eating a hamburger while you try to eat dinner with your family.

Blame the dumb asses trying to impress their girlf friends / boy friends by acting like an ass instead of trying to show political dissidence.

Your argument is like someone getting mad as hell, screaming "Nazis!!!" because they went into a church, and screamed "God does not exist! You are all fucking idiots", and was carried out by the police. Your right to freedom of speech and expression does not give you the right to prevent someone else from giving their's to CONSENTING people at an assembly they chose to attend.

[Baralis]

That's the thing. They were permitted. Once upon a time I guess.
You know...People are actually independent, intelligent beings.

But I guess we need a police state to just make sure that we never step out of line. You see, these "Free speech" zones didn't exist long back in the past. I wonder how we managed then...

Perhaps it was because people knew if they stepped out of line back then they would have thier head clubbed. Just a possibility. Law inforcment today do not have the power they once had and it shows in a lot of ways.

[LordTenacious]

That's the thing. They were permitted. Once upon a time I guess.
You know...People are actually independent, intelligent beings.


Back then, people also knew to be respectful and listen without shouting all the time about HOW BAD EVERYTHING IS OMG!!!. The people who shouted like morons got the living shit kicked out of them.

Unless you want to bring back some good old fashioned shit kicking as well, I'd suggest you to move on.

Edit: Fuck you for beating me to it Baralis.

[Battle]

Just to stir the pot, where do you draw the line?

Is this too going too far? (http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june272006/Tucker_Funeral_Protest_62706.php)

[Tharkon Fargor]

That is absolutely not my argument.
For this measure is not directed against a specific group or violent demonstration or outburst. It is directed against all.

For your allegory to be correct I would have to be thrown out of the church area even for just handing out atheist leaflets at the side of the road because I wasn't in my free speech area.

To drag this even further, these areas would make million man marches such as those against the Iraq war impossible. If these areas were enforced even more than they are today. Please remember, not so long ago they didn't even exist. Do not just hope that they will not be widely used.

And if the society we live in today is getting so sick then we should expand peoples rights to express their disdain for it, not limit them.

Or would you disagree?


Law inforcment today do not have the power they once had and it shows in a lot of ways.
True. Back in the days protestors were alot more free but they risked getting shot for even just standing stilld and holding up placards.
We had that in Sweden to...a huge huge huge line of people demonstrating for better working rights. The Ådalenmarsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85dalen_shootings).
Completely peacefull folks, didn't bother anyone and still they were shot.
This really leads me to think that the demonstrators aren't really to blame, this is in fact just one more way for the state to control its citizens.

As late as in 2001 the police shot live ammunintion against a crowd (this time violent though) while imprisonating the huge peacefull group in a small area for several hours.
Now we can expect "Ray guns", fences and gas grenades being thrown at people...what a lovely development. But I doubt the police will stop carrying their live ammo.

[Matriel]

Free speech zones aren't necessarily ridiculously small fenced in areas. The university where I work has one, but it's just a specific area of campus. No fences or anything. You regularly see preachers, anti-war, etc, whatever people there all the time. They aren't restrained, they just don't get to be dicks everywhere else. I think in cases like this it is probably a happy medium unless people want to start recognizing that free speech doesn't mean I don't get to hit you in the face. :)

[Tharkon Fargor]

Just to stir the pot, where do you draw the line?

Is this too going too far? (http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june272006/Tucker_Funeral_Protest_62706.php)

It's sickening. Thus my thread. When the exception becomes the law(rule).
In this case, protestors should be forbidden in a certain radius of the funeral.

But never should protestors be confined to go to a certain place while not being allowed anywhere ellse. Do you see what point I am trying to make here?

[Tharkon Fargor]

Free speech zones aren't necessarily ridiculously small fenced in areas. The university where I work has one, but it's just a specific area of campus. No fences or anything. You regularly see preachers, anti-war, etc, whatever people there all the time. They aren't restrained, they just don't get to be dicks everywhere else. I think in cases like this it is probably a happy medium unless people want to start recognizing that free speech doesn't mean I don't get to hit you in the face. :)

So you Matriel really have bought into this neo-conservative bullshit, you to?
What happend to "I hate your opinions but I'd die for your right to express them" or how it goes.

So you'd rather not want them silly hippies in and around your college throwing leaflets on you than having the right to do the same? :bang:

[Baralis]

You keep bringing up the early years of our country and how it was different. Another reason why new laws and methods are having to be put in place now that were not in place then is the sheer number of people. Remember back then you did not have (very very few) people traveling across the country to protest a presidental debate. You did not have multi millions of people all in a close proximity so number would have been much smaller. To me that means less of a chance of trouble erupting by odds alone.

[LordTenacious]

Note that these are only used at colleges and political rallies where people are known to be a wee bit volatile.

You want them gone? Fine by me. Just don't start crying when the riots happen.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Well you know...To be frank here and I know I'm killing my own point.
If you have the largest demonstrations in the world, in every capital of the world against a war that is not just or legal then the government that desides to go to war should get overthrown.

And Baralis...they did travel. Seen Martin Luther Kings speeches? What if those were forced to be in some lousy backstreet in a "confined area"? How sad wouldn't that have been? Imagine how much our and especially your liberties would have suffered without his speeches.

Also we had huge demonstrations during 1967-69 all over the world. Sadly in most places they were brutaly beaten down...the youth is rarely given an audience.
In Prag tanks rolled in, in France marshal law was declared, in America people were shot.
Yet most people were peacefull and there were barely any "counter" demonstrations.
In most cases, the government just didn't want to listen. And saw "disorderly conduct" and "unlawfull assembly" as de jure reasons to silence an opinion that they de facto couldn't stand.

They are doing the same now, in an even bigger fashion.

[Matriel]

So you Matriel really have bought into this neo-conservative bullshit, you to?
What happend to "I hate your opinions but I'd die for your right to express them" or how it goes.

So you'd rather not want them silly hippies in and around your college throwing leaflets on you than having the right to do the same? :bang:

It's called property rights. If you're ruining someone's business picketing outside for some other cause, then you probably deserve to be shuffled into a specific area.

I don't mind anyone protesting anything at the University and regularly go see what people have to say. I just recognize that they shouldn't be running through classrooms naked crying about the War in Iraq because that's a bit ridiculous.

[Tharkon Fargor]

It's called property rights. If you're ruining someone's business picketing outside for some other cause, then you probably deserve to be shuffled into a specific area.

I don't mind anyone protesting anything at the University and regularly go see what people have to say. I just recognize that they shouldn't be running through classrooms naked crying about the War in Iraq because that's a bit ridiculous.


Agreed. So you shouldn't really be supporting this dude.
Because running naked through calssrooms crying about the war will get you suspended for other reasons anyway.

[Matriel]

Agreed. So you shouldn't really be supporting this dude.
Because running naked through calssrooms crying about the war will get you suspended for other reasons anyway.

We have more than students show up. It's a public university, so obviously there has to be a middle ground. Which I think large free speech zones that have lots of foot traffic is...

[DR.NUMBERS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones

...So instead of having exceptions for special events where demonstrations are forbidden close by, demonstrators are forced into cramped, fenced areas while all other areas are forbidden during the specific event?
Not to mention that demonstrations and gatherings of people should be allowed anywhere.


Only other nation to have these is the "democratic" Peoples Republic of China.

Except of Canada that is looking into it now since the godamn move towards an American Union


It's really comming.

Remember, not so long ago: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=65280

[Scully]

You'll always be free to speak. And they'll always be free to jail you. That's freedom.

[Tharkon Fargor]

We have more than students show up. It's a public university, so obviously there has to be a middle ground. Which I think large free speech zones that have lots of foot traffic is...

If you start giving in, they will one day take it all.
Instead demonstrators that act in a violent way should be taken care off and students running naked through universities should probably get suspended (though I'm not really bothered, especially if its some hot chick ;)).

Whats the point of "large protest zones in trafficated/metropolitan areas" more than you limit a persons individual freedoms to that area?

[Baralis]

And Baralis...they did travel. Seen Martin Luther Kings speeches? What if those were forced to be in some lousy backstreet in a "confined area"? How sad wouldn't that have been? Imagine how much our and especially your liberties would have suffered without his speeches.

Also we had huge demonstrations during 1967-69 all over the world. Sadly in most places they were brutaly beaten down...the youth is rarely given an audience.
In Prag tanks rolled in, in France marshal law was declared, in America people were shot.
Yet most people were peacefull and there were barely any "counter" demonstrations.
In most cases, the government just didn't want to listen. And saw "disorderly conduct" and "unlawfull assembly" as de jure reasons to silence an opinion that they de facto couldn't stand.

They are doing the same now, in an even bigger fashion.

I was talking early in our coutry pre-1800s I did not realize you were talking 1960s.

I am all for people being able to express their veiws publicly. But I also understand that now days they have to try and keep mobs under control otherwise I dont think many messages would ever get out their.

[Ovtivon]

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." -benjamin franklin

I feel that it is wrong for protests to be confined since that can obviously lead to something worse. Destruction of property I understand, but that is no excuse. As long as the protest is peaceful it is allowlable and if it does get out of hand where they break actual laws such as destruction of property or tresspassing or running around naked then you just have the warn them and jail them and fine them for the destruction of property ect. Keeps both liberty and order compatible.

[Baralis]

The way that I see the purpose of our government is this: It is in place to protect its citizens from other citizens, from outside dangers, and the government itself. In protection I mean allowing a person to work for a better life and all that they have aquired in that life.

In my eyes it does not mean, allow citizens to demand anything that they want.

You have to admit that some of the issues people spoke out about 200 years ago are very similar to some of todays issues. But on the other hand it seems with each generation the public demands more and more rights and want more and more then privious generations.

Somehow I do not think gay marrage demonstrations happened a hell of a lot 200 years ago. But its and example of people wanting more and more all of the time.

[Ovtivon]

The way that I see the purpose of our government is this: It is in place to protect its citizens from other citizens, from outside dangers, and the government itself. In protection I mean allowing a person to work for a better life and all that they have aquired in that life.

In my eyes it does not mean, allow citizens to demand anything that they want.

You have to admit that some of the issues people spoke out about 200 years ago are very similar to some of todays issues. But on the other hand it seems with each generation the public demands more and more rights and want more and more then privious generations.

Somehow I do not think gay marrage demonstrations happened a hell of a lot 200 years ago. But its and example of people wanting more and more all of the time.

Uh shouldn't we want more as we as a society advance? Unless you wanted us to all stay in a fuedal system with lords governing us. Point being if free speech is restricted so does the evolution of our society.

Plus it is a good thing we demand rights because if we didn't america would have been a dictatorship long ago. I want my children to be better of than me don't you?

What would you be in the civil rights movement? That black guy saying "well i didn't have civil rights so I don't want my children having rights either! no fair!"

Also protest can be "working for a better life".

[Baralis]

Uh shouldn't we want more as we as a society advance? Unless you wanted us to all stay in a fuedal system with lords governing us. Point being if free speech is restricted so does the evolution of our society.

Plus it is a good thing we demand rights because if we didn't america would have been a dictatorship long ago. I want my children to be better of than me don't you?

What would you be in the civil rights movement? That black guy saying "well i didn't have civil rights so I don't want my children having rights either! no fair!"

Also protest can be "working for a better life".

No I do not think we should have more and more rights with each generation.

The basic rights that were put into place when the country was founded cover everything that should be important imo. Most ( not all ) of the rights that have been added since the bill of rights was first written have been catering to specific groups of people that all demand more rights to fit thier little life. I think in the long run this infringes on the majorities.

Edit- Also with each generations our original rights are taken further and further out of the original context to cater to these groups. Take freedom of speech for example. That has got to be the most abused amendment ever concived.

[Baralis]

What would you be in the civil rights movement? That black guy saying "well i didn't have civil rights so I don't want my children having rights either! no fair!"

Also protest can be "working for a better life".

Also you are incorrect there. They have always had equal rights in the original contitution. What they were demanding is those rights to be met.

See the different?

[Ovtivon]

No I do not think we should have more and more rights with each generation.

The basic rights that were put into place when the country was founded cover everything that should be important imo. Most ( not all ) of the rights that have been added since the bill of rights was first written have been catering to specific groups of people that all demand more rights to fit thier little life. I think in the long run this infringes on the majorities.

Edit- Also with each generations our original rights are taken further and further out of the original context to cater to these groups. Take freedom of speech for example. That has got to be the most abused amendment ever concived.

Yes they did put most everything that was important when they founded this country, like being able to amend the constitution. They realised that in the future there are going to be circumstances they didn't forsee and chances for a social revolution towards a better life. If you feel a new right given to a certian group of people is unjust then you can protest yourself or become involved in politics.

Since this discussion was originally about freedom of speech then wouldn't it be ridiculus if you wanted to protest about how opressive and out of context these new rights are but can never have anyone listen to because of these restrictions?

Evolution works both ways, foward and backwards and in a way what you are doing wanting these new categorized rights taken away is demanding more for your future generations. hmmmm...

[Ovtivon]

Also you are incorrect there. They have always had equal rights in the original contitution. What they were demanding is those rights to be met.

See the different?

Black men have always had equal rights? Like the "three-fifths" compromise?

[hostileEffect]

We have police to keep law and order, if someone protesters are raining on your party, call the police and have the offenders removed. If they are protesting on public property, well, isn't that the suck for you. You can still go camping on public sidewalks right?
IIRC, if protesters block a public street then yeah, they can be rounded up.

IMHO, protesting is a waste of time and very few, if any people, are going to listen. Oh look! Cute little protesters! Look at them wave their signs and repeat their lines, like it matters to us.

IMHO, you can waste your life in some non-profit group that at best will slow the inevitable. I intend to learn real skills, get some decent money in the bank, and find a place where its so cold that its a non-passable white out most of the year. Whatever happens in the rest of the world probably won't affect me.

IMHO, one of the few things that can fix this country is a complete moral overhaul, unless something like that happens, get ready for a very very long ride...

[Drizden!]

Keep in mind, that your right to free speech is not a right to prevent me from having my own assembly. They are a way to make sure both parties are allowed to practice their rights, and not have one group try to prevent you from having yours.

Imagine allowing liberals roam free and saying whatever they want during a McCain speech. Or neo-cons roaming the DNC while Obama was trying to speak.

Our rights are sacred, but too many people seem to think their rights are more important than the one's they don't like.

BULL FUCKING SHIT. Equal rights is one thing but that is not how these "zones" are being used. One side gets a huge platform and the dissenters get to sit in a cage across the street. These are used to stifel people rights not to protect them.

Furthermore the RNC and DNC are private meetings so they parties have total control over what goes on inside just like any person has private control over their home or place of business.

[Bratus]

Am I the only one who believes every generations doesn't gain rights they loose them?

and here's the general idea of the free zones

Three protest parks were designated in Beijing during the 2008 Summer Olympics, at the suggestion of the IOC. All 77 applications to protest there had been withdrawn or denied, and no protests took place. Four persons who applied to protest were arrested or sentenced to reeducation.[52][53]

BAM WE KNOW WHO DEY ARE! It's just like Hitlers gun registration, now we know whose got em O.o

[Baralis]

People tend to want change regardless if this change is actually better for them are not as long as they get change.

I think people are going to change our country right into crap. Heh actually I think that they have it 80% there.

Tell me, what rights do you think you are not getting?

[Baralis]

Black men have always had equal rights? Like the "three-fifths" compromise?

They have had equal rights as far as the original constitution goes. The problem was the rights were not being observed by law.

[Ovtivon]

People tend to want change regardless if this change is actually better for them are not as long as they get change.

I think people are going to change our country right into crap. Heh actually I think that they have it 80% there.

Tell me, what rights do you think you are not getting?

So you think the solution is to restrict all forms of change? There is always a clash between conservatives or liberals but to let one win out gets rid of any hope of change when we need it or the same when we need it. To get rid of our ability to better ourselves is to take away our humanity. We do not know everyhting so we must allow the ability for everyone to be heard whether want change or no change.

[Baralis]

So you think the solution is to restrict all forms of change? There is always a clash between conservatives or liberals but to let one win out gets rid of any hope of change when we need it or the same when we need it. To get rid of our ability to better ourselves is to take away our humanity. We do not know everyhting so we must allow the ability for everyone to be heard whether want change or no change.

I never said all change is bad. But we try to change to much to fast. Its almost as if each generation has to add thier own rights or they feel left out.

Im saying stick to the basics and stop nit-picking and catering select groups giving them thier own set of rules.

[Drizden!]

Am I the only one who believes every generations doesn't gain rights they loose them?

Your not the only one. I agree with you. Each generation loses their most basic and important rights usually through some government regulation that is supposed to grant them even more rights not realizing they are forfeiting their rights in the process.

Case in point. Affirmitive action. In gaining special rights based on the group you belong to you lose your property rights both directly through welfare programs and indirectly by loss of efficiency by people getting positions they are not qualified for because of the protected status.

[Ovtivon]

I never said all change is bad. But we try to change to much to fast. Its almost as if each generation has to add thier own rights or they feel left out.

Im saying stick to the basics and stop nit-picking and catering select groups giving them thier own set of rules.

Then I guess the problem is is that those that want these changes are more politically active than those with your opinion. They have a right to voice thier opinion and be active for their agenda as you have have that right to work for your agenda.

Point being if you really feel passionate about something then take a stand for it instead of bitching on an internet gaming forum. :p

[Bratus]

I would like to add this to the constitution so its clear

We the people have the right to do anything the hell we want as long as we don't infringe on someone else's right to do whatever the hell he wants.

No one shall be monitored for any reason without suspicion of criminal activity by any institution private or public.

(Outlawing spyware, illegal government activities and private)

Yes, the banks know where you live. Yes they know how much you make. Yes they know what bills your paying. Yes they know all your account #'s. Yes they know all of your relatives, where they live, there SS#'s and bank accounts. Yes even if you put your cell phone on a blockbuster movie rental card it may possibly be recorded. If you call a 1-800 # your phone number is recorded. If you register to vote its recorded & by party affliation.

This ones creepy
http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=city&city=keller&search=Search

[Baralis]

Then I guess the problem is is that those that want these changes are more politically active than those with your opinion. They have a right to voice thier opinion and be active for their agenda as you have have that right to work for your agenda.

Point being if you really feel passionate about something then take a stand for it instead of bitching on an internet gaming forum. :p


You do realize that "The people" dont make the laws anymore? Its largly done by special interest groups that are funded by large corporations :sly:

[Ovtivon]

You do realize that "The people" dont make the laws anymore? Its largly done by special interest groups that are funded by large corporations :sly:

Like I said take a stand for it instead of bitching on an internet forum.:sly:

[Eskareon]

This is all you ever do, isn't it, Tharkon? Sit in your room and dig up more things you dislike about America. It's getting pretty pathetic.

[Bratus]

i just wish i knew what country he was from so i could bash it :(

[heroshade]

Live the revolution America, live the revolution!

[Bamboopanda]

Also you are incorrect there. They have always had equal rights in the original contitution. What they were demanding is those rights to be met.

See the different?

No, HE was correct, if you open an history book, you will see that they infact did not have those rights in much of the country.

Our culture determined that 'our' rights did not encompass coloreds, they had a different set of rights and the demonstrations where a demand that they be put on equal footing.

/Here is where we need a fail pic for you.

[Bamboopanda]

People tend to want change regardless if this change is actually better for them are not as long as they get change.

I think people are going to change our country right into crap. Heh actually I think that they have it 80% there.

Tell me, what rights do you think you are not getting?

I no longer have the 'right' to not be harassed by the cops for no reason. Any possible excuse can be used to detain me.

I can no longer be free from government intrusion due to the ability they now have to spy with no oversight at all.

I can now be forcibly taken from my home and family, leaving them destitute, and given no trial or access to defense council and eventually be tried by a military court simply by having an arm of the government make a decision that I am guilty with no proofs. That arm has no oversight.

I can be silenced from talking to anyone with a simple worded instruction by almost every area of government officials, and be jailed indefinitely because I spoke out, without trial and be at the whim of whatever official is presiding over the situation.

I cannot have representation for ALL laws passed and enforced in this country. Our quasi dictator can sign off on executive orders that carry the full weight of the law, and have no recourse.

I cannot influence local elections and get my immediately accessible government to change; any gatherings/surveys I compile can be disregarded for not following sufficient red tape dictated by the government.

I am not made aware of ALL laws and regulations that are passed, or up for approval, and am in fact rarely given any access to those papers. Yet I can be jailed or penalized for not following those same rules.

I do not have the right to expect that my representatives are average 'working' individuals, and can accurately represent me. In 1820 in most places of this country, the concept of a career politician was alien and was counter intuitive of our rights TO representation.

I have lost the right to have my State dictate laws and influence the path of the country, thanks to the civil war, all federal powers supersede that of the member states, even powers NOT dictated to be in control of the federal government.

I do not have the right of free passage within the nation. There are a host of laws that limit me and in fact act as quasi confinement. I can be forced to stop at a checkpoint and 'searched' randomly, completely ignoring my rights and any resistance will land me in jail.

I do not have the right to be finished with my sentence for breaking the laws of the land, at any time I can be retried in a myriad of ways, or forced to continue serving a 'non' sentence after my penal phase had already passed.

I can now be stripped of my citizenship for breaking all but the most mundane laws, and with the stroke of a pen with no population oversight, can lose that citizenship for breaking ANY laws. I would then be a second class person, and have no representation or recourse.

Would you like me to go on? The list is huge. BTW, I am talking about the U.S. and not any other pissant country.
Our founding fathers fought for much less. And they fought for that for almost a decade.

[Tdog]

I no longer have the 'right' to not be harassed by the cops for no reason. Any possible excuse can be used to detain me..

You still have this right, same as you did 20 years ago, Cops could always use any ecuse to detain you.

I can no longer be free from government intrusion due to the ability they now have to spy with no oversight at all..
They can only spy on those they believe are involved in criminal conduct, the average American has no reason to be worried about the goverment spying on them.

I can now be forcibly taken from my home and family, leaving them destitute, and given no trial or access to defense council and eventually be tried by a military court simply by having an arm of the government make a decision that I am guilty with no proofs. That arm has no oversight..
If you do something wrong or support criminal organizations, then yes they can. If you do not give them any reason, they cannot take you away from your family.

I can be silenced from talking to anyone with a simple worded instruction by almost every area of government officials, and be jailed indefinitely because I spoke out, without trial and be at the whim of whatever official is presiding over the situation..
Never heard or seen this before. This is pure bullshit. We still have freedom of speech. PEROID.


I cannot have representation for ALL laws passed and enforced in this country. Our quasi dictator can sign off on executive orders that carry the full weight of the law, and have no recourse..

yes you can, vote for the right representation, then you can have your say. You will have to work hard to make sure that rep you put in office listens to you.

I cannot influence local elections and get my immediately accessible government to change; any gatherings/surveys I compile can be disregarded for not following sufficient red tape dictated by the government..

Follow the rules and your surveys have to be viewed by the goverment. You can influence your local elections. Vote for the right person, get your peers to do the same. Again it take effort and hard work by you to do this.

I am not made aware of ALL laws and regulations that are passed, or up for approval, and am in fact rarely given any access to those papers. Yet I can be jailed or penalized for not following those same rules..

Whos fault is that you are not aware of all the laws? It is up to you to make sure you know all the rules and laws.

I do not have the right to expect that my representatives are average 'working' individuals, and can accurately represent me. In 1820 in most places of this country, the concept of a career politician was alien and was counter intuitive of our rights TO representation..
Yes you have the right to expect your representatives are average 'working' Americans. You just have to vote for who you want. Again this is something that you must work for.

I have lost the right to have my State dictate laws and influence the path of the country, thanks to the civil war, all federal powers supersede that of the member states, even powers NOT dictated to be in control of the federal government..
Each state can choose to follow or not follow the federal goverment's laws. There are consequneces for these choices but that goes without saying. Any choice you make has consequneces.

I do not have the right of free passage within the nation. There are a host of laws that limit me and in fact act as quasi confinement. I can be forced to stop at a checkpoint and 'searched' randomly, completely ignoring my rights and any resistance will land me in jail..
You can drive anywhere in this nation. Period. Their are not check points setup between states. If you cross into another country, they yes you could be randomly searched.

I can now be stripped of my citizenship for breaking all but the most mundane laws, and with the stroke of a pen with no population oversight, can lose that citizenship for breaking ANY laws. I would then be a second class person, and have no representation or recourse..

Never heard of this, I dont think that you can lose your citizenship if you are born in America. PEROID.


Most of your so called points are things that require you to do some hard workd and put in alot of effort, that is the current problem in America, people like you want everything handed to them with little or not effort.

[Bamboopanda]

...

What you listed, is how it is supposed to work, and how we are told it works.

Start looking around and you will find that it does not in any way work like that.

[Tdog]

What you listed, is how it is supposed to work, and how we are told it works.

Start looking around and you will find that it does not in any way work like that.

Sorry but I have never been detained for doing nothing, nor have I been monitored by the goverment, nor have I been stopped and searched driving to another state, nor have I not been able to say what I want to say, nor have I been held without a trial date, nor have I had my citizenship takening away for a crime, nor have I not been able to vote for who I want.

You need to stop believing everything you read in the news and start looking at your own life.

Have you really lost any rights? Really?
Because here in Michigan, I have not lost any rights, none, my life still goes on just fine with these "new" rules and laws because I do not give the goverment any reason to have to keep an eye on me.

If you do nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear. Plain and Simple.

[Bamboopanda]

You still have this right, same as you did 20 years ago, Cops could always use any ecuse to detain you.


No they could not unless you let them. Few officers of the law in our early years had any power excepting for the local constable. And he was ALWAYS elected. Judges/Mayors/Constables could issue an temporary request to have additional personnel added for a specific purpose and once that use was expended those additional personnel where disbanded. They could not wander around and stop and strip you down, they wouldn’t dare. You often had to be tried before a warrant was issued before the early police would ever approach you. That is WHY a warrant is important, it means there is proof of some sort of your potential guilt. We do not work like that now, warrants are considered an impediment to catching someone.

Exceptions where made in some of the larger cities where European influences where exceptionally strong and the concept of a 'police' force was put into practice. Almost everything the early forces did, required the approval of a judge. And almost everyone (not the assistants usually) where under the direct influence of the local population.

Without an warrant.
The first police could not stop you, ever. They could not question you, ever. They could not detain you, ever. Later it was added that they could do these things if they caught you in the act of doing an illegal activity. Any police officer that did anything more, understood that they themselves could be arrested by another independent police force employed by the state.

Today, you can cross your eyes and get your ass beat by the cop and thrown in jail when your blood splatters on his uniform. Your only recourse is to sue the city/country that employs them, after you have lost an immense amount of money, pride, health, freedom and peace of mind. Never mind what little rights you thought you had.

That cop is considered more important than you. You are a second class citizen compared to him. In our history, cops and citizens where considered equal, because they where pulled from the same exact population. Then cops ended up as an average citizen very quickly, and was often called to answer for anything done, and if it was not needed, they where thrown in jail. Today, he is never in the wrong.

[Bamboopanda]

If you do nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

This is all you needed to say before, you are a fool a coward and a child. You do not have the life experience or the mental ability to see thru others eyes, I don't care if your 40 years old, you are nothing.

Keep toe to the line, the day you don't you will understand.

/Edit: I was going to go thru and disect every one of your responses, but I am not interested in wasting my time with a mind that cannot see even the simplest of ideas. Just because you do not use your rights, does not mean they are not needed.

[Tdog]

This is all you needed to say before, you are a fool a coward and a child. You do not have the life experience or the mental ability to see thru others eyes, I don't care if your 40 years old, you are nothing.

Keep toe to the line, the day you don't you will understand.

/Edit: I was going to go thru and disect every one of your responses, but I am not interested in wasting my time with a mind that cannot see even the simplest of ideas. Just because you do not use your rights, does not mean they are not needed.

You can call me any name you want because it really does not matter to me what you think of me.

By you calling me names it shows just how mature you are.
You cannot carry on a debate without calling namings, your just not that bright.

Look, its very simple, I as a 26 year male, living in Michigan have not lost any rights since 9/11. NONE.

I still do everything I did back then, nothing has change for me as far as my rights as an American. You are free to believe anything you want, just like I am free to believe anything I want.

And a Cop could pull you over for anything the wanted to 10,20,30 years ago, without a warrent they could search your car. Its called Reasonable Cause. They could question you, they could detain you for any reason they made up.

A cop's word vs your word in court are equal, well at least here in Michigan. I know this is fact because I have gotten out of seat belt tickets many times. I have not paid for one seat belt ticket yet.

If its the cop's word vs your word, the cop has to have proof or it is throw out of court. Again here in Michigan that is how it works.

You don't have to waste your time debating with me, its clear to me that you are set in your believes and anyone that disagress with you must be stupid.
You are the coward that cannot debate without calling people names.

[Bamboopanda]

....

Your cop pulling over is a great example of lost rights buddy. Go read the constitution, way back when I was in school we had to fricking memorize the thing. You on the other hand have obviously never even given it a once over. Cop sees you driving erratically? Ok I concede that the cop needs to pull you over, and check to make sure things are straight. But because you are drunk/stoned/epileptic/getting blown does (Or I should say ‘should’ at this point) not give him an reason to search you or your positions and only detain you so long as needed to ensure that there is no continued risk to the life of others.

If your having a heart attack, ok, cop should tear the shit out of your car to find some meds to save your ass, but if in the process he finds an half ounce of MJ, that should never be allowed to be used in the court of law. Sucks, but you know what, letting a criminal off is at the end of the day better for our future than stripping each person of his rights and life.

Probable cause is not a cart blanc excuse to strip you of rights. Nothing is. That is the fucking point. Our current laws do not mesh up with our constitution without doing mental gymnastics to get to the point we are at now.

That means we have lost rights. You do not feel the pain because you sit and follow instructions and very likely piss yourself when someone gets mad, that does not mean that because you are a pushover and accept anything thrown your way that we need to as well. I am glad you are happy, but I value freedom over temporary happiness.

You said you have not seen any of your rights taken; it is blatant that this is because you have never exercised those rights and as such have never seen them to begin with. If that is how you wish to live, fine, it is your life and you can enjoy it how you wish. The problem is that those of us who actually go beyond what we are told and can see beyond the here and now understand that what is wrong right now, is not 'alright' simply because it does not currently affect our immediate life.

Your limited life experience does not mean that things are good. It only means that YOUR life is good. To keep that life, you need to actually get up and do something once in a while.

And yes, I will continue to call you a shit-head and all manor of other things. Re-read your earlier quote I highlighted, think about it. If you can get why I highlighted that, instead of responding to the rest of your earlier post (it deserves a thought out response), you might understand why. Childish or not for calling names, that is my opinion of you, and will continue to be my opinion of you until you have proven that you are not an idiot.

My four year old can understand why that is not a good way of thinking. She figured it out all on her own as well. (or at least without my prompting, cannot be sure of what earlier things she picked up listening to me.)

[Killuminati]

Whos fault is that you are not aware of all the laws? It is up to you to make sure you know all the rules and laws.


This alone shows what a complete imbecile you are. Yah, I'm sure its even possible to know every single law thats being passed to this day while future legislation keeps getting churned out. You need to understand how legislation has been growing exponentially since the progressive era. Plus, we originally were suppose to live in a society where government power was restrained, not the peoples rights. This is a gradual bastardization of the bill of rights. Quit chugging down the government cock ever so slowly.

[Tdog]

Your cop pulling over is a great example of lost rights buddy. Go read the constitution, way back when I was in school we had to fricking memorize the thing. You on the other hand have obviously never even given it a once over. Cop sees you driving erratically? Ok I concede that the cop needs to pull you over, and check to make sure things are straight. But because you are drunk/stoned/epileptic/getting blown does (Or I should say ‘should’ at this point) not give him an reason to search you or your positions and only detain you so long as needed to ensure that there is no continued risk to the life of others.

If your having a heart attack, ok, cop should tear the shit out of your car to find some meds to save your ass, but if in the process he finds an half ounce of MJ, that should never be allowed to be used in the court of law. Sucks, but you know what, letting a criminal off is at the end of the day better for our future than stripping each person of his rights and life.

Probable cause is not a cart blanc excuse to strip you of rights. Nothing is. That is the fucking point. Our current laws do not mesh up with our constitution without doing mental gymnastics to get to the point we are at now.

That means we have lost rights. You do not feel the pain because you sit and follow instructions and very likely piss yourself when someone gets mad, that does not mean that because you are a pushover and accept anything thrown your way that we need to as well. I am glad you are happy, but I value freedom over temporary happiness.

You said you have not seen any of your rights taken; it is blatant that this is because you have never exercised those rights and as such have never seen them to begin with. If that is how you wish to live, fine, it is your life and you can enjoy it how you wish. The problem is that those of us who actually go beyond what we are told and can see beyond the here and now understand that what is wrong right now, is not 'alright' simply because it does not currently affect our immediate life.

Your limited life experience does not mean that things are good. It only means that YOUR life is good. To keep that life, you need to actually get up and do something once in a while.

And yes, I will continue to call you a shit-head and all manor of other things. Re-read your earlier quote I highlighted, think about it. If you can get why I highlighted that, instead of responding to the rest of your earlier post (it deserves a thought out response), you might understand why. Childish or not for calling names, that is my opinion of you, and will continue to be my opinion of you until you have proven that you are not an idiot.

My four year old can understand why that is not a good way of thinking. She figured it out all on her own as well. (or at least without my prompting, cannot be sure of what earlier things she picked up listening to me.)

Okay well you are a moron.

If I am driving erratically, the cop pulls me over.
Cop determinds that I am drunk.
Because I am drunk, I broke the law which says I cannot drive drunk, which now gives the cop the right to search my car.

Pretty simple logic my friend.

If I am driving erratically, the cop pulls me over.
Cop determinds that I was just being stupid.
Cop gives me ticket for X. (X can be for driving erratically)
Cop lets me go.

Pretty simple logic my friend.

If I am driving erratically, the cop pulls me over.
Cop determinds I am hiding something or I am lieing to him. (they are trained to tell)
Cop asks my permission to search my car... I can either say no or yes.
If I say No, cop holds me until he gets a warrent, then searchs my car
If I say Yes, cop searchs my car.

Again pretty simple logic my friend.

Your not living in the real world. I am a young kid driving a nice car, Cops target me because of this, that is not right, we both agree with that but that is reality. The cop still does not search my car every time they pull me over, nor have they ever searched my car for anything. Do you know why? Because I give them no reason to.

Unless you are doing something that is againts the law, the cop will not search your car, or arrest you, or anything else your little scared mind thinks will happen.

Who the fuck are you to tell me I never exercised my rights? You have no idea who I am or what I do. I do exercise my rights everyday.

I have taken cops to court over bogus tickets because the cop was wrong. I have taken tickets to court and won becuase I know my rights as an American.

[Tdog]

This alone shows what a complete imbecile you are. Yah, I'm sure its even possible to know every single law thats being passed to this day while future legislation keeps getting churned out. You need to understand how legislation has been growing exponentially since the progressive era. Plus, we originally were suppose to live in a society where government power was restrained, not the peoples rights. This is a gradual bastardization of the bill of rights. Quit chugging down the government cock ever so slowly.

Sorry I choose to live in the real world, not a world of should bes and what ifs.

Sorry if you believe that we are losing rights then you should do something about it besides bitching on the internets.

We allowed our goverment to go down this path, you have nobody but yourself to blame. This is the problem with America right now, everyone wants to blame everyone else. Take fucking responsibility for your actions or non actions.

Yes its possiable to know each new law passed everyday, all you need to do is ask to see the list of laws, it is your right to know what the goverment is doing, it is your responibility to make sure you hold them accountable.

It is your fucking choice who is in the goverment yet, you sit here and whine like a bitch about things you could and have the power to change.

Stop fucking crying and start acting. For fuck sake quit acting like a child and realize

WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE RESONISBILE FOR THE CURRENT FUCKING MESS. WE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN, WE MUST NOT EITHER LIVE WITH IT OR FUCKING CHANGE IT.

God dam, you people are fucking stupid. Nothing is this world is going to be handed to you, you must work for everything you want but you guys are so fucking smart you should have already figured this out.

[Bamboopanda]

...

I am not going to argue, you gave the governments reasoning.

You did not go on to the middle ground steps of why each and every example is actually not a violation of an 'right'. Pulled over drunk, automatically translates into search? Explain the fully tier of reasoning as to why, and where that ability comes from and WHY it is or is not against our constitution. Other than it makes the cops job easier.

You can lay out how things are all day, it does NOT mean that our rights are not being violated. Reality says we have no rights at this point. We only have privileges that can be revoked at any time. Do you understand the difference between and right and privilege? If so, go back to your drunken driving example. You will have to back peddle and explain both sides to make your preferred explanation clear, and that is a bit of mental gymnastics.

You profess to fighting tickets, you do understand that tomorrow legislation can pass that gives you no recourse? That you get to suck it up and be a good citizen even if you didn't do it? Fighting within the system gets you only so far, because the doors can close at any time those in power feel like it. Any farther and the government must fear you in order to pursue the avenue without bloodshed, ours does not.

Ignoring the rights already lost does not mean that we cannot nor will not lose more. The more we push back, the more those in power have to give or else risk escalation, and that is why I make a big deal out of it. I would rather push back now, when words and minor actions can reverse the trend. Rather than later, when I may have to use the same training I was given to fight on foreign soil against my own countrymen. You do not get it, but you are young yet.

BTW, I have seen the real world beyond our soil. I have seen the way totalitarian systems work. I have been apart of that system before. I know how cheap your life is. If you do not fight for them, your rights are worth even less.

[Desperado[1G]]

No my brainwashed friend. In America you had the right to assembly anywhere once upon a time. Remember, that is often what we are critical of brutal regimés. Because they force demonstrators (if any) in small spaces, controll them tightly and often refuse them to have a demonstration.

Your constitution guarantees you freedom of assembly and so does ours.

And once upon a time, as a member of the press you could knock on the door of the white house, show the steward your press card, and go speak with the president.

These are different times. Assholes take on the guise of "protesting", and incite riots. That's the way it is. Stop getting so dramatic.

[Bamboopanda]

God dam, you people are fucking stupid. Nothing is this world is going to be handed to you, you must work for everything you want but you guys are so fucking smart you should have already figured this out.

Some of us are active in trying to make change. Some of us do what little is possible and available in our lives.

It does not preclude the fact that we wish to have more. For the world to be better and not accept what others have offered, especially when what others have offered is shitpie. This is just another place to spread our views, and hope that we can get a few more to finnaly stand up and help even a little.

You are a simpleton, happy in your little slice of the world and content with the smell of a rotten life being wasted. I would like to leave the world just a little better for my kids than when I came in. Words are the only thing that stand before me and those whom I would have to eliminate should words fail.

Wrap your head around the fact that less than 45% of Americans vote. The approval for our government is varying between 7% and at most 20%. People are worried and for good reason. Revolutions have been won against governments with higher support. If we don't fix the core of the problem, and convince sheep like you that there IS a problem, we get a much worse life later.

[Bamboopanda]

;1760866']And once upon a time, as a member of the press you could knock on the door of the white house, show the steward your press card, and go speak with the president.

These are different times. Assholes take on the guise of "protesting", and incite riots. That's the way it is. Stop getting so dramatic.

This is not 'different' times. Humans have acted the same today, as they did hundreds, even thousands of years ago.

The biggest difference we have between now, and when we started. Is that our leaders now, value themselves more than our country. They do not consider themselves expendable or the defenders of anything. That breeds this problem. Riots are not entirely bad, it shows the true feelings of those whom partake. Crush the root of the problem, and you will not have riots.

Ignore the problem, and riots are only the start of a very bad thing. And no 'rules' will staunch it.

[Tdog]

I am not going to argue, you gave the governments reasoning.

You did not go on to the middle ground steps of why each and every example is actually not a violation of an 'right'. Pulled over drunk, automatically translates into search? Explain the fully tier of reasoning as to why, and where that ability comes from and WHY it is or is not against our constitution. Other than it makes the cops job easier.

You can lay out how things are all day, it does NOT mean that our rights are not being violated. Reality says we have no rights at this point. We only have privileges that can be revoked at any time. Do you understand the difference between and right and privilege? If so, go back to your drunken driving example. You will have to back peddle and explain both sides to make your preferred explanation clear, and that is a bit of mental gymnastics.

You profess to fighting tickets, you do understand that tomorrow legislation can pass that gives you no recourse? That you get to suck it up and be a good citizen even if you didn't do it? Fighting within the system gets you only so far, because the doors can close at any time those in power feel like it. Any farther and the government must fear you in order to pursue the avenue without bloodshed, ours does not.

Ignoring the rights already lost does not mean that we cannot nor will not lose more. The more we push back, the more those in power have to give or else risk escalation, and that is why I make a big deal out of it. I would rather push back now, when words and minor actions can reverse the trend. Rather than later, when I may have to use the same training I was given to fight on foreign soil against my own countrymen. You do not get it, but you are young yet.

BTW, I have seen the real world beyond our soil. I have seen the way totalitarian systems work. I have been apart of that system before. I know how cheap your life is. If you do not fight for them, your rights are worth even less.

If I get pulled over for drunk driving, I broke the law, The cop due to said law can impound my car. Car is now state property, cop is allowed to search state property.

I have rights not privileges. I have the right to choose to break the law or not break the law, I have the right to speak my mind on any subject I feel like, I have the right to do anything I choose to do.

You always have a choice, ALWAYS. But with each choice you will have to face the consequences.

What you are talking about is what it should be like, how it should work. That is all fine and good but currently that is not how it works. Currently we the American people have allowed this to happen, we have no right to bitch about it, it was our choice, now we must live with the consequences.

We as the American people have to stand up and make the changes we want, its not hard to understand.

Look at prohibition. The goverment made it illlegal to drink alcohol, the majority of the American public did not follow this new rule and the goverment had know choice but to change the law.

The Majority of America has to stand up and demand change, that is how it works here in America, Yes it could possiable come down to another civil war, this time it would not be the North vs South, it would be the Rich vs Everyone.

You need to stop wishing things were different and accept the fact that things are the way they are because we as American's failed, we failed to force our goverment to listen to us, we failed to elect the correct people for goverment, we failed to hold them accountable. WE FAILED, WE MUST TAKE THAT RESONSIBILITY. Until you accept that we are at fault, nothing will ever change.


This blaming others needs to stop, blame the person looking at you in the mirror. People blame volience on movies, video games and music but fail to accept the fact volience has been around for longer then any of those. People blame the goverment for alot of things but we voted them into power.
People blame schools for bad students instead of blaming the parents of those students.

People here in American refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and choices, until that changes, we are stuck living in this current world.

[Desperado[1G]]

Some of us are active in trying to make change. Some of us do what little is possible and available in our lives.

It does not preclude the fact that we wish to have more. For the world to be better and not accept what others have offered, especially when what others have offered is shitpie. This is just another place to spread our views, and hope that we can get a few more to finnaly stand up and help even a little.

You are a simpleton, happy in your little slice of the world and content with the smell of a rotten life being wasted. I would like to leave the world just a little better for my kids than when I came in. Words are the only thing that stand before me and those whom I would have to eliminate should words fail.

Wrap your head around the fact that less than 45% of Americans vote. The approval for our government is varying between 7% and at most 20%. People are worried and for good reason. Revolutions have been won against governments with higher support. If we don't fix the core of the problem, and convince sheep like you that there IS a problem, we get a much worse life later.

His life is "rotten and wasting"? I'd say he's living a pretty good life. Much better than you could find anywhere else in the world. I too am living well, so that makes me a "sheep" because I don't believe in this fantasy that the evil government needs to be deposed? For what? I haven't experienced any of these great injustices you moonbats keep crying about.

Does that make me apathetic, or ignorant? No, it's simple logic. People like me aren't going to support retards like you, when there is absolutely no reason to. And trust me, there is NO reason to.

[Tdog]

Some of us are active in trying to make change. Some of us do what little is possible and available in our lives.

It does not preclude the fact that we wish to have more. For the world to be better and not accept what others have offered, especially when what others have offered is shitpie. This is just another place to spread our views, and hope that we can get a few more to finnaly stand up and help even a little.

You are a simpleton, happy in your little slice of the world and content with the smell of a rotten life being wasted. I would like to leave the world just a little better for my kids than when I came in. Words are the only thing that stand before me and those whom I would have to eliminate should words fail.

Wrap your head around the fact that less than 45% of Americans vote. The approval for our government is varying between 7% and at most 20%. People are worried and for good reason. Revolutions have been won against governments with higher support. If we don't fix the core of the problem, and convince sheep like you that there IS a problem, we get a much worse life later.

See that is were you are wrong, I am not a sheep. I look at the current world and then I look at how this happened.

We failed, we as in you and me, We failed to stand up and demand our goverment listen to us, we failed to hold them accountable. We failed, we must live with that fact, we must try and fix the mistakes we have made, it is up to us, it is not up to those in power, those in power are there because of us.

Again you fail to accept responsibility for our failure, you blame others.

We as Americans decided along time ago that as long as I am okay, then fuck everyone else. That is our main problem, years and years of worrying about yourself and your family, instead of worrying about others.

We are to blame, we are the cause of the problem, we are the only ones that can fix the problems.

P.S. I still get up, shower, drive to work, work for 8 hours, drive home, grab some beer, pack a bowl, watch Tv, play on the computer, talk on my cell phone, driver faster then the speed limit, hang out with my friends, go to the movies, rent movies, date girls, and do everything I have been doing for the last 15 years. None of my rights have changed. I still have my right of freedom of choice. Freedom to choose my own path in life, including breaking any laws I personally see fit.

Again If I choose to break a law, I must live with the consequences of that choice.

[Bamboopanda]

;1760912']His life is "rotten and wasting"? I'd say he's living a pretty good life. Much better than you could find anywhere else in the world. I too am living well, so that makes me a "sheep" because I don't believe in this fantasy that the evil government needs to be deposed? For what? I haven't experienced any of these great injustices you moonbats keep crying about.

Does that make me apathetic, or ignorant? No, it's simple logic. People like me aren't going to support retards like you, when there is absolutely no reason to. And trust me, there is NO reason to.

The governemnt does not have to be disposed. It has to be limited. Simple thought I would think.

Believe what you want, but we have given too much of the basics away. Your 'good' life can evaporate in a flash, and if you are not willing to at least get up and try and make changes for the better, it will.

[Desperado[1G]]

This is not 'different' times. Humans have acted the same today, as they did hundreds, even thousands of years ago.

The biggest difference we have between now, and when we started. Is that our leaders now, value themselves more than our country. They do not consider themselves expendable or the defenders of anything. That breeds this problem. Riots are not entirely bad, it shows the true feelings of those whom partake. Crush the root of the problem, and you will not have riots.

Ignore the problem, and riots are only the start of a very bad thing. And no 'rules' will staunch it.

Yes, these are different times. The generations of today are far less respectable than that of say, the early 1900s. If the public had access to the president, he'd get shot. It doesn't matter if it is Bush, or Clinton, or anyone else.

Oswald shot Kennedy. Why? Because he wanted his name in the paper.
Hinckley shot Reagen. Why? He wanted to impress a hollywood actress.

I'm not saying there weren't nutjobs a couple hundred years ago, I'm saying those nutjobs didn't have access to firearms.

[Bamboopanda]

See that is were you are wrong, I am not a sheep. I look at the current world and then I look at how this happened.

We failed, we as in you and me, We failed to stand up and demand our government listen to us, we failed to hold them accountable. We failed, we must live with that fact, we must try and fix the mistakes we have made, it is up to us, it is not up to those in power, those in power are there because of us.

Again you fail to accept responsibility for our failure, you blame others.


I have not failed. I have acted to get things moving. I have done everything within my power short of running for office to get things changed.

The failure is in you and those like you. Whom presume that life is/will be good forever without working or fixing any problems. You are happy that you succeeded in countering the tickets you received. Did you go further? Did you go on to fight the very laws that empowered those cops? Did you work to defend others who may not have the time/money to fight anything more than the bill collectors? Did you gather up and get support to fix the root of the problem?

Stop fucking telling me that I am the one at fault dipshit. Here is YOUR quote.
If you do nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear. Plain and Simple.
That is the base problem with YOU and men like you.

It is not me who has shit on this country. YOU and your ignorance has. Anyone who has ever agreed with that sentiment are at the core the problem. There is no WE in that statement dumbfuck. That is YOU and yours.

Tell me where the responsibility is. I am willing and ready to kill for what I believe. I do not care even if I kill those who do not deserve it, but only stand in the way. I DO NOT because I know there are better ways. So rather than sit on my ass and feel content that a nebulous 'other' is taking care of it, I get up and work to make change and get bad laws removed. To get politicians to be voted out when they make horrid decisions, but getting shits that think like you to move is an epic challenge. To open eyes to the things that are stabbing us in the back is harder than you obviously understand. Fighting with a gun is easy and simple, and does not always result in what you would like. But defending the constitution is what I swore to do, so I do it with words and HOPE it works before dirtbags that think like you allow MY country to fail.

Sit back and be content, but know that you are the root of the problem. Stand up and be a man and have a voice, make the world a better place rather than cowing behind the 'well we are all at fault'. No, YOU are at fault. Anyone like you is at fault. Just because I want to fix things, does not mean I can do it alone against the failure of your magnitude of complacency. When a voice falters, the ones who do not wish to listen to that voice win.

[Bamboopanda]

;1760967']Yes, these are different times. The generations of today are far less respectable than that of say, the early 1900s. If the public had access to the president, he'd get shot. It doesn't matter if it is Bush, or Clinton, or anyone else.

Oswald shot Kennedy. Why? Because he wanted his name in the paper.
Hinckley shot Reagen. Why? He wanted to impress a hollywood actress.

I'm not saying there weren't nutjobs a couple hundred years ago, I'm saying those nutjobs didn't have access to firearms.

o.O

History: learn it. Because you just failed, I do not like you, but I feel sorry for you.

[jonyak]

Tell me where the responsibility is. I am willing and ready to kill for what I believe.

obviously not or you would be leading the rebellion.

stop now, you are making an ass out of yourself.

[Desperado[1G]]

o.O

History: learn it. Because you just failed, I do not like you, but I feel sorry for you.

LOL, please. Do you think people would make the same sacrifices that our forefathers and their families made in WW2?

No, they wouldn't. They were a different breed, a better breed, than what you see today.

[Bamboopanda]

obviously not or you would be leading the rebellion.

stop now, you are making an ass out of yourself.

I have no current reason to lead a rebellion, nor would I imagine to be good at it.

But I will not stop. I will not silence the fact that most are content to let a 'right' wither away and become a forgotten privilage. I know I am not a great speaker, it is the main reason I would not succeed in politics. But I will have a voice. And I will work to fix problems I see and bring them to light so that if I and those I work with fail, someone else hopefully will stand up and fix it.

Just because the things are the way there are, does NOT mean that they are good for the country or our long term stability. We have failings, from our start all the way to present day. But we must be heard or the failings only get worse. Guns are not the only answer, so get out and fucking fight in other ways.

Edit: The 'other' ways seem to be the whole point to the ops post. Without an alternate outlet, violence brews.

[Barbarossa]

Unfortunately, some people think that along with free speech comes the right to throw, rocks, bottles, etc. and be general assholes.

This is why these areas are set aside, to protect police and otherwise innocent folks from the 'peaceful' protesters.

If it were me that got hit with a rock or a bottle, they better have something separating them from my hands and fists, like a cage.

[Musketeer]

Hippies tried to change the world in the 60's.

Once they realized it involved more than free-love, drugs, and outdoor concerts the movement died real fast.

:D

[Bamboopanda]

Hippies tried to change the world in the 60's.

Once they realized it involved more than free-love, drugs, and outdoor concerts the movement died real fast.

:D

:lmao:

[jonyak]

Hippies tried to change the world in the 60's.

Once they realized it involved more than free-love, drugs, and outdoor concerts the movement died real fast.

:D

ya, you know how it died??

the US gov't shot them... in cold blood at kent state.

and then turned there drug of choice into an illegal control substance. it was legal until hippies started to use it

[Desperado[1G]]

we also introduced a myriad of drugs into the california populace

also, we invented aids

also, cocks

[Musketeer]

ya, you know how it died??

the US gov't shot them... in cold blood at kent state.

and then turned there drug of choice into an illegal control substance. it was legal until hippies started to use it

Yeah that was my point.

As soon as it turned into a fight...they folded like a bad poker hand.

Everyone likes to talk a good fight but when you have to actually fight...everyone runs away.

[shackal]

Guys
Looks like you going way of topic. US government spends many years and money to dumb down people. When people are dumb you can control everything. Dumb protesters needs to be put on side for their safety.
Remember Americans you have the power to change nothing.

[Desperado[1G]]

Guys
Looks like you going way of topic. US government spends many years and money to dumb down people. When people are dumb you can control everything. Dumb protesters needs to be put on side for their safety.
Remember Americans you have the power to change nothing.

We have more armed citizens in the state of new york than the entire national guard.

We have the power to change everything. You, on the other hand, do not.

[Tdog]

I have no current reason to lead a rebellion, nor would I imagine to be good at it.

But I will not stop. I will not silence the fact that most are content to let a 'right' wither away and become a forgotten privilage. I know I am not a great speaker, it is the main reason I would not succeed in politics. But I will have a voice. And I will work to fix problems I see and bring them to light so that if I and those I work with fail, someone else hopefully will stand up and fix it.

Just because the things are the way there are, does NOT mean that they are good for the country or our long term stability. We have failings, from our start all the way to present day. But we must be heard or the failings only get worse. Guns are not the only answer, so get out and fucking fight in other ways.

Edit: The 'other' ways seem to be the whole point to the ops post. With out an alternate outlet, violence brews.

You need to think about this statement and take it to heart.
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference

There are some things in this messed up world that cannot be changed by words alone, you must realize this.

I live my life based on what I think is right. I dont care what anyone else says or tells me. I made my own choices and I must live with those consequences.

Yes I wish things were different, I wish I could change the world but I also know that without the majority it will not happen. The majority of American's refuse to accept responsibility and we cannot change that.

You need to realize that you cannot change someones mind, you can only show them the right path based on what you believe to be the right path.

People like me understand the reality we live in. We don't accept things cannot change, we accept the fact that things will not change unless the majority wants them to change.

At this point in our history, the majority is happy being stupid and native, we no longer have the help of the "Greatest Generation". We are left with a bunch of native lazy American's that choose to let others make their choices.

You and me are not that fair apart on our views. We both think things need to change but you believe that we are losing rights and I believe we are not losing rights.

You believe the goverment is out to get you, I choose to believe that the goverment is out to make money and stay in power though fear.

I have not lost any rights, I still believe that with all my heart and soul. My daily life has not changed, I still do the same routine day after day, week after week, month after month.

Do you know my my daily life has not changed? Because I dont give any reason for the goverment to take my rights away or to spy on my life.

[Barbarossa]

;1761176']We have more armed citizens in the state of new york than the entire national guard.

We have the power to change everything. You, on the other hand, do not.


That's a lie, he has the power to change his underwear but odds are that he doesn't do that on a regular basis...

[Tdog]

That's a lie, he has the power to change his underwear but odds are that he doesn't do that on a regular basis...

We here in America have the power to change anything but we do not have the drive to change anything. That is the problem.

We can change everything, we can even start over fresh but we do not have enough motivated people to do this.

I will bet you though, if the Goverment ever tries to take away our "rights" provided to us though the bill of rights, it would be game over for the goverment.

[shackal]

;1761176']We have more armed citizens in the state of new york than the entire national guard.

We have the power to change everything. You, on the other hand, do not.

Only if you get this people on the street with guns, prolly most of them will get shot. Too bad it will never happen because too many people just don’t give a shit.

[jonyak]

Yeah that was my point.

As soon as it turned into a fight...they folded like a bad poker hand.

Everyone likes to talk a good fight but when you have to actually fight...everyone runs away.

well thats the thing.. they didn't want to fight... they wanted peace and love...

unfortunately peace and love are fairly ineffective against bullets and hate.

[Desperado[1G]]

Only if you get this people on the street with guns, prolly most of them will get shot. Too bad it will never happen because too many people just don’t give a shit.

Or maybe it's nowhere near as bad as you melodramatic clowns make it out to be?

[shackal]

We here in America have the power to change anything but we do not have the drive to change anything. That is the problem.

We can change everything, we can even start over fresh but we do not have enough motivated people to do this.

I will bet you though, if the Goverment ever tries to take away our "rights" provided to us though the bill of rights, it would be game over for the goverment.

Patriot act

[Desperado[1G]]

unfortunately peace and love are fairly ineffective against bullets and hate.

Congratulations. You've just discovered what's been known to mankind since before recorded history.

Crying for the moon doesn't get you anywhere.

[Tdog]

Patriot act

Has not effected the average American.

[Musketeer]

Has not effected the average American.

Or above-average Americans.

Which I consider myself to be.

:cool:

[Tdog]

Or above-average Americans.

Which I consider myself to be.

:cool:

It has only effected the criminals and people that deal with the criminals. The average or above-average :sly: Americans have not been effected because it does not effect "good" people.

There is always the execption to the rule but I am talking in general.

[Killuminati]

ya, you know how it died??

the US gov't shot them... in cold blood at kent state.



Good riddance

one less dumbass liberal. Also it was their fault for being in a stupid ass hippie protest where they decided to throw rocks at people with guns!

[Bamboopanda]

We here in America have the power to change anything but we do not have the drive to change anything. That is the problem.

We can change everything, we can even start over fresh but we do not have enough motivated people to do this.

I will bet you though, if the Goverment ever tries to take away our "rights" provided to us though the bill of rights, it would be game over for the goverment.

You really need to take another look at the various laws of the land. Its already happened. Its a front at this time to let us keep spewing the same bs and thinking it true. You have not read our laws, you have not worked in or with the government.

Incompetence is the average, but it is not always the case.

Think about this, the few laws I’ve managed to help repeal, have taken years to be pulled off the books, and is the culmination of dozens of peoples effort to get rid of crappy laws. It only takes a few days to get a new one instated. That is another problem for another thread. But when many laws ignore our bill of rights and the constitution there is a problem. An no, we are not rising up to meet the challenge in any numbers to matter.

Yes, our rights are near non-existant.

[Bamboopanda]

:bang:
It has only effected the criminals and people that deal with the criminals. The average or above-average :sly: Americans have not been effected because it does not effect "good" people.

There is always the execption to the rule but I am talking in general.

:bang::bang::bang::bang:

[Eskareon]

Idea: Why don't we all just let Bamboo walk away thinking he's right? We can tell him that he's right, we have no rights, the government is brainwashing us, and we are all just a bunch of dumb sheep who don't see the "truth" of what's going on.

Let's just tell him that. Maybe he'll be so gleeful that he'll skip down his street and get hit by a bus.

[Tharkon Fargor]

You still have rights, ellse you wouldn't be writting here.
But you're loosing them for every month that passes while you are gaining no new.

Really Eskareon, what new rights have you gained lately?

[Nafelos]

I just wish there was as much outrage about Gun Control Zones.

[Mosiah]

You really need to take another look at the various laws of the land. Its already happened. Its a front at this time to let us keep spewing the same bs and thinking it true. You have not read our laws, you have not worked in or with the government.

Incompetence is the average, but it is not always the case.

Think about this, the few laws I’ve managed to help repeal, have taken years to be pulled off the books, and is the culmination of dozens of peoples effort to get rid of crappy laws. It only takes a few days to get a new one instated. That is another problem for another thread. But when many laws ignore our bill of rights and the constitution there is a problem. An no, we are not rising up to meet the challenge in any numbers to matter.

Yes, our rights are near non-existant.

Amen brother. It is sad hearing all these armchair quarterbacks spew their inexperience and lack of research. If you have never been in the game, don't act like an expert. Yet here they are and they never read the playbook, let alone understand the big words. Such a waste.

[Musketeer]

I invented a new word about a year ago I think may apply here.

Wikipidiot - someone who demonstrates incredible knowledge on internet forums by searching Wikipedia before every post and then acting like they knew it all along.

:p

[Tdog]

You really need to take another look at the various laws of the land. Its already happened. Its a front at this time to let us keep spewing the same bs and thinking it true. You have not read our laws, you have not worked in or with the government.

Incompetence is the average, but it is not always the case.

Think about this, the few laws I’ve managed to help repeal, have taken years to be pulled off the books, and is the culmination of dozens of peoples effort to get rid of crappy laws. It only takes a few days to get a new one instated. That is another problem for another thread. But when many laws ignore our bill of rights and the constitution there is a problem. An no, we are not rising up to meet the challenge in any numbers to matter.

Yes, our rights are near non-existant.

Show me examples of laws that ignore the bill of rights?
Show me how my rights are near non-existant?

Amendment I - Still have this right.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II - Still have this right.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III - Still have this right.

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV - Still have this right.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V - Still have this right. (See Detroit Mayor Scandel)

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI - Still have this right

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII - Still have this right.

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII - Still have this right.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX - Still got this right.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X - Still got this right. Yes the Federal Goverment holds funding over the states to force them to accept the federal laws but again that is a choice by the state.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[jonyak]

I invented a new word about a year ago I think may apply here.

Wikipidiot - someone who demonstrates incredible knowledge on internet forums by searching Wikipedia before every post and then acting like they knew it all along.

:p

would you rather they not look things up at all and remain ignorant?

[Musketeer]

would you rather they not look things up at all and remain ignorant?

I'm not judging.

It's just that for the last few years you can't really have a debate about history, religion, or politics on an internet forum because everyone is now an expert and has all the "facts."

And the ones who like to claim they know more than everyone else are usually (but not always) the ones who didn't know shit until a few clicks of the mouse ago.

[jonyak]

I'm not judging.

It's just that for the last few years you can't really have a debate about history, religion, or politics on an internet forum because everyone is now an expert and has all the "facts."

And the ones who like to claim they know more than everyone else are usually (but not always) the ones who didn't know shit until a few clicks of the mouse ago.

haha true...

I also find its never about who is actualy right, but more abotu who can get more people on their side and brow beat the other into submission.

[Zanir_zrold]

Mmmmm there was a case in a Texas (I think) university where the speaker was booed offstage essentially by hecklers. A judge decided that heckling is allowed by the first amendment, but if it gets to the point that is drowns out someone else's speech, you are infringing upon their "right" to speak freely.


It's interesting how many people think they have the right to free speech. You don't. In the first Amendment, it says that Congress (and by 14th amendment the states, and by the necessary and proper clause most of the federal departments which does NOT include the president, though might include the secret service if they were commissioned by Congress) may not make any law abridging the freedom of speech. Obviously a private university or business should be able to abridge free speech as much as they want, as long as they aren't getting any subsidies from the national government.

[Matriel]

If you start giving in, they will one day take it all.
Instead demonstrators that act in a violent way should be taken care off and students running naked through universities should probably get suspended (though I'm not really bothered, especially if its some hot chick ;)).

Whats the point of "large protest zones in trafficated/metropolitan areas" more than you limit a persons individual freedoms to that area?

Property rights. I said it before. Your right of free speech doesn't trump my property. So stay off my yard you dirty ass hippy.