Republicans Cause Recessions?

[rockyraccoon]

Look At This. (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/storysupplement/investor_special/2008/index.html) If you look at it thoroughly, you'll see the orange color indicating a recession. Under every republican there was a recession? Could it be that the GOP somehow causes recession through fucking up?

[Skyborn]

More likely the dems cause the fuckups and then they impact the pubs who have to fix it.

[Justinian]

Look At This. (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/storysupplement/investor_special/2008/index.html) If you look at it thoroughly, you'll see the orange color indicating a recession. Under every republican there was a recession? Could it be that the GOP somehow causes recession through fucking up?

someone doesn't understand the Federal Reserve-created business cycle. In fact, I would wager someone doesn't even know what a business cycle is.

[rockyraccoon]

someone doesn't understand the Federal Reserve-created business cycle. In fact, I would wager someone doesn't even know what a business cycle is.

no i just don't care. i'm here for one thing only and that's to cause enough flame wars and hate so darkfall doesn't go all GD. now that i thought of it though, I should of used religion.

[Goty]

Your mom causes recessions. In my pants.

[Justinian]

no i just don't care. i'm here for one thing only and that's to cause enough flame wars and hate so darkfall doesn't go all GD. now that i thought of it though, I should of used religion.

you're a flame war

[Baralis]

Your mom causes expansions. In my pants.

Fixt

[Dirty l3um]

you're a flame war

your made of a flame war

[Skyborn]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

[shock223]

it's not much as the poltics making the market move as much as poltics following the market.

during a recession, large amounts of America usually becomes democrats (more voting people get hit harder and look for the goverment for help).

during a peak, large amounts of America become republicans (more people have jobs and want to cut taxes since the market is good and why should they have to pay for socialize systems).

it's just a cycle that America goes through.

[Baralis]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

This is just how I see it as well.

[Slypieguy]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

You forgot the part where Bush Jr. fucks it up even worse, but yea. This time the incoming democrat president will have a steamy pile of shit to start out with, so it should be entertaining to see what it looks like when he's done lolz

[Titus Ultor]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

What about the whole.. budget surplus thing? Clinton really didn't spend that much more money given his cuts to post Cold War defense spending.

[stalwart]

no i just don't care. i'm here for one thing only and that's to cause enough flame wars and hate so darkfall doesn't go all GD. now that i thought of it though, I should of used religion.


there is no "GD" anymore. it's "ADD" or "ND"

[Honorius]

You can't talk about politics here, this is OT.

[DocGonzo]

the problem with that are the facts...

from a recession when Clinton took office - 8 years later a budget surplus

W takes that surplus and 8 years later (6 with control of House and Senate) is in record deficits, record debt...verge of a Depression

the Lesson is that over time, we learn that a divided government fighting each other all the time delivers the best overall economic progress

[Skyborn]

I was really expecting that post to piss more people off.

[Entreri]

I wouldn't say republicans cause recessions. I would say people named after shrubbery do though. We need to make a law that no one with the last name Bush can be president, since both of them screwed up the economy.

[Kraven]

who cares about poor people?

[Feyrband]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

or you just have a bunch of ******* (poor minorities) buy houses they cant afford.

[Bratus]

the problem with that are the facts...

from a recession when Clinton took office - 8 years later a budget surplus

W takes that surplus and 8 years later (6 with control of House and Senate) is in record deficits, record debt...verge of a Depression

the Lesson is that over time, we learn that a divided government fighting each other all the time delivers the best overall economic progress

there was no real surplus it was a projection theoretical surplus that never really existed it you brought the national debt into question. Just like First it was how many trillion? then it was less then it was a projected surplus then the suggestion to use a surplus to pay a debt. Obviously we have a surplus debt lol

btw isn't that a chart on the S&P index? not the economy? It says JFK lead us into a recession and Jimmy Carter was the greatest man alive...

erm stagflation?

[DocGonzo]

there was no real surplus it was a projection theoretical surplus that never really existed it you brought the national debt into question. Just like First it was how many trillion? then it was less then it was a projected surplus then the suggestion to use a surplus to pay a debt. Obviously we have a surplus debt lol

btw isn't that a chart on the S&P index? not the economy? It says JFK lead us into a recession and Jimmy Carter was the greatest man alive...

erm stagflation?

well now...try the GAO's numbers...look them up yourself and decide

can't argue with someone who won't accept factual data from reliable sources when they try and spin shit...

yer Doctor always says, look shit up for yourself and make up your own mind

[Tdog]

The GOVERMENT reguardless of party caused the Recessions with help from greed business owners.

[DocGonzo]

The GOVERMENT reguardless of party caused the Recessions with help from greed business owners.

bullshit

it's called a "business cycle"...look it up

i know some try and pass that cycle off on the Fed, but the Fed reacts to market forces trying to control inflation, NOT the other way around

some folks keep trying to convince us that the cart pulls the fucking horse, i'd listen a bit more, but most who keep saying that around here have yet to sprout pubes

[Tdog]

bullshit

it's called a "business cycle"...look it up

i know some try and pass that cycle off on the Fed, but the Fed reacts to market forces trying to control inflation, NOT the other way around

some folks keep trying to convince us that the cart pulls the fucking horse, i'd listen a bit more, but most who keep saying that around here have yet to sprout pubes

Right but a normal business cycle does not need a 700 dollar bail out.

[DocGonzo]

Right but a normal business cycle does not need a 700 dollar bail out.

correct...because normally folks don't leverage their debt to 30 to 1 ratios...and folks actually insure their risk with reputable sources rather than paying a fee to the guy they bought the paper from and not checking on their ability to pay the bet if shit happens

big difference, eh?

the defaulted mortgages are bad, but not what is collapsing the system...the over leveraged bad paper that was fraudulently "insured" IS the problem...and ALL this was made much easier by tons of deregulation, form the GOP congress getting Clinton to remove the barrier between commercial and investment banks to now

again, do your fucking homework

[Vanno]

it's not much as the poltics making the market move as much as poltics following the market.

during a recession, large amounts of America usually becomes democrats (more voting people get hit harder and look for the goverment for help).

during a peak, large amounts of America become republicans (more people have jobs and want to cut taxes since the market is good and why should they have to pay for socialize systems).

it's just a cycle that America goes through.

I tend to follow this line of reasoning; aside from some major market interferences/fiscal mismanagement, presidents have very little effect on things.

[Tdog]

correct...because normally folks don't leverage their debt to 30 to 1 ratios...and folks actually insure their risk with reputable sources rather than paying a fee to the guy they bought the paper from and not checking on their ability to pay the bet if shit happens

big difference, eh?

the defaulted mortgages are bad, but not what is collapsing the system...the over leveraged bad paper that was fraudulently "insured" IS the problem...and ALL this was made much easier by tons of deregulation, form the GOP congress getting Clinton to remove the barrier between commercial and investment banks to now

again, do your fucking homework

So the GOP congress got Clinton a Dem to change something.... So I will stick with my first comment.

I blame the Goverment, not one party.

[DocGonzo]

So the GOP congress got Clinton a Dem to change something.... So I will stick with my first comment.

I blame the Goverment, not one party.

/sigh :bang:

but you make that assumption in direct opposition to the facts

was governmental policy one of the contributing factors...of course it was

was it the main factor, or the root cause...fuck no, for the reasons i've stated and in many of the threads on this topic, linked to evidence and data to prove my postulate

some just keep repeating theirs without showing their proof, but operating under their faith based "reasoning"

me...i'll stick with the actual, provable, empirical facts

[Tdog]

/sigh :bang:

but you make that assumption in direct opposition to the facts

was governmental policy one of the contributing factors...of course it was

was it the main factor, or the root cause...fuck no, for the reasons i've stated and in many of the threads on this topic, linked to evidence and data to prove my postulate

some just keep repeating theirs without showing their proof, but operating under their faith based "reasoning"

me...i'll stick with the actual, provable, empirical facts

The fact is these companies were able to do something that they were unable to do before Clinton changed the polices which caused the current problem we see now.

Goverment + Big Business greed = Current problems

I guess I am missing something.

[DocGonzo]

The fact is these companies were able to do something that they were unable to do before Clinton changed the polices which caused the current problem we see now.

Goverment + Big Business greed = Current problems

I guess I am missing something.

yes...you are missing a lot

credit swaps, derivatives, insurance fraud, over leveraging assets, and fraudulently assigning risk...these are the problems here

bad mortgages are insured against as laid out in actuarial tables, and said risk is built into the prices

it was deregulation (the SEC this week admitted their "voluntary oversight" didn't work...look it up) and no one enforcing what few laws that were applicable that exacerbated a minor problem into a financial disaster

but keep spouting talking point and shallow opinions if it helps you....but it's still wrong... the "blame" for the severity rests solely on the Players, not the rules

[Tdog]

but keep spouting talking point and shallow opinions if it helps you....but it's still wrong... the "blame" for the severity rests solely on the Players, not the rules

Who are the players?

The goverment, the big business, wall street and banks correct?

[DocGonzo]

Who are the players?

The goverment, the big business, wall street and banks correct?

the government is NOT a Player in this game, they set the Rules, and are supposed ot enforce them...the main fault of government agencies here is NOT setting proper Rules, and NOT enforcing the ones they had...deregulation and "voluntary self policing" (SEC) are the things the government did wrong

a problem, but NOT the BIG problem here...the BIG problem are the criminals who took advantage of the government's lax approach

one does not blame the law for what a criminal does, eh?

[Tdog]

the government is NOT a Player in this game, they set the Rules, and are supposed ot enforce them...the main fault of government agencies here is NOT setting proper Rules, and NOT enforcing the ones they had...deregulation and "voluntary self policing" (SEC) are the things the government did wrong

a problem, but NOT the BIG problem here...the BIG problem are the criminals who took advantage of the government's lax approach

one does not blame the law for what a criminal does, eh?

They set the rules and did not enforce them? So they are at fault, might not be a biggest issue but they still have some blame.

Hense. Goverment + Big Business + Greed = Current problems.

[DocGonzo]

They set the rules and did not enforce them? So they are at fault, might not be a biggest issue but they still have some blame.

Hense. Goverment + Big Business + Greed = Current problems.

so you want a nanny state?

here it is in a simple form

jaywalking is against the law, as is speeding and drunk driving, you walk out in the middle of the street and get killed by a car by a drunk doing 100 miles an hour

is the government to blame?

[Tdog]

so you want a nanny state?

here it is in a simple form

jaywalking is against the law, as is speeding and drunk driving, you walk out in the middle of the street and get killed by a car by a drunk doing 100 miles an hour

is the government to blame?

No you are to blame for breaking the laws, then the drunk driver is to blame for breaking a couple of laws and then the local police department (goverment) is to blame for not enforcing the laws.

Here it is in a simple form

Your family has the right to sue the bar that the drunk was at before he left becuase they did not inforce the law of not allowing people to drive drunk.

Its not the bar's fault this guy was drunk and drove yet they are held responsiable.

I do not agree with that but that is how it works.

If the goverment makes rules, it is their job to enforce those rules, if they fail to enforce those rules, then they are at fault.
You are correct they are not the only ones to blame but they still hold some blame.

[Lethn]

Didn't you know? Democrats cause cancer? :p

[Reckin Crew]

3 Men who brought down Wall Street....................

Here is a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought down Wall Street.


1. Franklin Raines: was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae. Raines was forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. At the time of his
departure The Wall Street Journal noted, " Raines, who long defended the company's accounting despite mounting evidence that it wasn't proper, issued a statement late Tuesday conceding that "mistakes were made" and saying he would assume responsibility as he had earlier promised. News reports indicate the company was under growing pressure from regulators to shake up its management in the wake of findings that the company's books ran afoul of generally accepted accounting principles for four years." Fannie Mae had to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.
Raines left with a "golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the depth of the accounting scandal became clear. http://housingdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/ . The Government noted, "The 101 charges reveal how the individuals improperly manipulated earnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly neglecting accounting systems and internal controls, misapplying over twenty accounting principles and misleading the regulator and the public. The Notice explains how they submitted six years of misleading and inaccurate accounting statements and inaccurate capital reports that enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafe and unsound manner." These charges were made in 2006. The Court ordered Raines to return $50 Million Dollars he received in bonuses based on the miss-stated Fannie Mae profits.


2. Tim Howard: Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard "was a strong internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a "stable pattern of earnings" at Fannie. In everyday English - he was cooking the books. The Government Investigation determined that, "Chief Financial Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate oversight to key control and reporting functions within Fannie Mae,"
<>
On June 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La ., asked the Justice Department to investigate his allegations that two former Fannie Mae executives lied to Congress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating the mortgage-finance giant's income statement to achieve management pay bonuses. Investigations by federal regulators and the company's board of directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings to trigger bonuses. Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late 2004.

Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!
<>
3. Jim Johnson: A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO. A look at the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report on mismanagement and corruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some interesting things about Johnson. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public, reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact it was $21 million." Johnson is currently under investigation for taking illegal loans from Countrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie Mae.

Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.



WHERE ARE THEY NOW?


1. FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor

2. TIM HOWARD? Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama
<>
3. JIM JOHNSON? Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee

yep Vote Obama!!

[DocGonzo]

Fannie and Freddy share some culpability...but it wasn't their wrongdoings that COLLAPSED the entire investment bank industry

so tired of partisan talking points from both "sides" rather than looking at the whole picture

:bang::bang::bang:

now, how many of those folks are with McCain's campaign?

you seem to have forgotten to mention that fact....

[Reckin Crew]

so tell me doc, who and how many CEO's from Fannie and Fredie work for McCain now...?

If their were any, i'm sure Obama would of pounced already and it would be all over the news....unlike this video that I'm sure you havent seen once on any Obama leaning news organization (CBS/NBC/ABC/BBC/CNN/NYT):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&eurl=http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/27/house-gop-rejects-latest-bailout-proposal/

love that C-Span.....

Another culprit is A.C.O.R.N.....a communtiy group with some very different approaches to getting loans for people who can't afford them....in Chicago....who's leader is pretty tight with Obama.

And Doc....where's the video's after each post like in SB....? always enjoyed your selections....

[DocGonzo]

so tell me doc, who and how many CEO's from Fannie and Fredie work for McCain now...?

If their were any, i'm sure Obama would of pounced already and it would be all over the news....unlike this video that I'm sure you havent seen once on any Obama leaning news organization (CBS/NBC/ABC/BBC/CNN/NYT):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&eurl=http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/27/house-gop-rejects-latest-bailout-proposal/

love that C-Span.....

Another culprit is A.C.O.R.N.....a communtiy group with some very different approaches to getting loans for people who can't afford them....in Chicago....who's leader is pretty tight with Obama.

And Doc....where's the video's after each post like in SB....? always enjoyed your selections....

not the CEOs...the lobbyists...try this article - http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/09/9663_mccain_fannie_freddie.html

i know, i don't like the source either...but i'm at work and don't have all my nifty bookmarks...the facts are accurate...have a read...neither side is innocent on this one

as for my musical bits...i spread them around where appropriate....but not with every post anymore...the schtick has played out...but we will see

notice there hasn't been a single "Excelsior" as a sign off either

but good to see another SBer around...always glad for sane conversation

[Bamboopanda]

no i just don't care. i'm here for one thing only and that's to cause enough flame wars and hate so darkfall doesn't go all GD. now that i thought of it though, I should of used religion.

I support this. :ninja:

[Mulambo]

Seriously look at it this way. You have one bush...he fixes everything. Then you have Bill I-am-going-to-spend-a-crapload-of-money-on-social-programs Clinton come in enjoy the ride from Bush Sr and the awesome post cold war boom. But it turns out its not sustainable and then BAM! George Jr. comes in and its all fucked up. Democrats suck.

What the fuck? Spending in G.W.'s administration is up a bazillion war dollars, way past anything clinton did with any social programs.

[Lacker]

Heres a nice video(Bit biased but oh well) lays out some hard info on many dems who are tied with the current debacle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4&feature=iv&annotation_id=event_597487

Imo both sides are equally liable in any era. Just some hide it better then others.