Abortion... Pro Choice or Pro Life?

[Spinewire]

As we have had an influx of new people i wonder if it has brought any god fearing foke into the mix or just the usual blend of 1 part heathen to 2 parts murderer that i have grown to know and love.

I have made this post a twice before hand, first one got locked the second did not... i think. Anyway due to branhammer archiving everything you can't even look at the old posts which i find a little odd.


Anyway Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[omnigol]

I'm anti-life and anti-choice.

[Kagetora8151]

I would like people to give their children up for adoption if they can, i.e. the mother won't be harmed by having the child. Otherwise, I am pro choice.

[[LoD] EE]

I would like people to give their children up for adoption if they can, i.e. the mother won't be harmed by having the child. Otherwise, I am pro choice.

I agree with his statement.

[Froed]

I would like people to give their children up for adoption if they can, i.e. the mother won't be harmed by having the child. Otherwise, I am pro choice.

There's those trauma/child-seperation issues to deal with, in that case.

Oh, and since my original post got removed, I just wanted to say I think it's stupid to think forcing more humans into this world is going to solve any problems. Pro-choice all the way.

[OvanOf Twilight]

Pro-choice, if possible I woul dprefer the mother and child to live but sometimes it's better to let the mother choose. I don't necessarily agree with the mother's decision but I don't wnat a law restricting her ability to decide.

[Metal Wolf]

Pro "out of town before the bitch knows".

[ZeaL-]

I support womens rights so pro-choice. Pro-life sounds stupid since everyone cares for others.

[trichlor]

Pro-choice, if possible I woul dprefer the mother and child to live but sometimes it's better to let the mother choose. I don't necessarily agree with the mother's decision but I don't wnat a law restricting her ability to decide.

Pretty much what he said.

[wertyn]

pro life its the smart choice.

[LordTenacious]

Anyway want to take bets on how soon this becomes another retarded religion debate?

[omnigol]

Pro-choice, if possible I woul dprefer the mother and child to live but sometimes it's better to let the mother choose. I don't necessarily agree with the mother's decision but I don't wnat a law restricting her ability to decide.

That's very diplomatic. You said sometimes it's better to let the mother choose. What times are those times, and why would you still disagree with them?

[Kekshorts]

pro life its the smart choice.
it's the smart choice so that's the choice were making you choose...

[Uzik]

Until the child could survive outside the mother through artificial means, I say the mother can choose. But once the child can survive elsewhere, what right does the mother have other the life of that child?

The best solution is prevention IMO. Condoms AND birth control bitches. Can never be too safe.

[OvanOf Twilight]

Anyway want to take bets on how soon this becomes another retarded religion debate?

I bet 50 posts for the 19th post.

[doma]

Anyway want to take bets on how soon this becomes another retarded religion debate?

It already is a retarded religion debate...

[Spinewire]

I support womens rights so pro-choice. Pro-life sounds stupid since everyone cares for others.
Apart from the baby that they are killing it appears...

[OvanOf Twilight]

Apart from the baby that they are killing it appears...

We got 6 billion people, do we really need any more?
God: Go out and reproduce....holy @#$% I didn't mean THAT much!

[Death's Chill]

I would like people to give their children up for adoption if they can, i.e. the mother won't be harmed by having the child. Otherwise, I am pro choice.

Yeah, so the kid has a wonderful life growing up in a religious childcare home. :rolleyes:

No thanks. It's not just about the mother but the kid's life too.

Both combined form to provide a concrete argument for pro-choice.

[Baralis]

Im pro life. I consider it no different then murder since in fact you are killing another human life, if they are aware of thier exsistance or not.

Now if it were suddenly legal to kill people I may reconsider :sly: But as it stands in most cases people only want to get rid of the burden if irresponsibilty by commiting murder.

[alfaroverall]

Need moar other option.

My ideal society would be one where women could not get abortions if they were not going to have children with extremely severe deformities and were not rape victims. I do not like the implications of having "I don't want a child" abortions in society; it promotes a wide variety of negative things, including sexual irresponsibility. But I know a government can't create this. Banning abortion just pushes it back into back alleys and makes it more damaging to the women themselves, not to mention being more expensive.

So I voted for pro choice just because it's not pragmatic to try to ban abortion, just like it's not pragmatic to ban most drugs (some drugs you really have to do something to try to stop because they're so destructive by their very nature; an example is heroin).

[LordTenacious]

God: Go out and reproduce....holy @#$% I didn't mean THAT much!

You forgot the "JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!"

[OvanOf Twilight]

Im pro life. I consider it no different then murder since in fact you are killing another human life, if they are aware of thier exsistance or not.

Now if it were suddenly legal to kill people I may reconsider :sly: But as it stands in most cases people only want to get rid of the burden if irresponsibilty by commiting murder.

You good sir, just won me my bet. Hand over 50 posts Tenacious.

[ClownFoot]

Pro-choice. People say you can just put the child up for adoption, but I don't think it is fair to the mother to have to go through the prenancy and birthing of the child if she doesn't want to keep it herself.

[ArdentAngel]

I would be ok with abortion being outlawed except in instances where the mothers health would be severely compromised or abortion very very early on, but pro-choice is fine. It's not fair to the baby since they cant choose, so we must choose for them and protect it's right to live.

[ArdentAngel]

Pro-choice. People say you can just put the child up for adoption, but I don't think it is fair to the mother to have to go through the prenancy and birthing of the child if she doesn't want to keep it herself.

Well its her fault for not using contraceptives, unless she got raped.

[Spinewire]

We got 6 billion people, do we really need any more?
God: Go out and reproduce....holy @#$% I didn't mean THAT much!
You want to stay on this poxy rock forever?

Why not kill of all the retards and disabled people then aswell as they would not beable to survive on there own and as a general rule they don't contribute much to society.

[stalwart]

imo, it's none of my fucking business.

i picked "pro-life" because of the connotations involved in "pro-choice"

[Drohn Moharri]

pro life

[OvanOf Twilight]

You want to stay on this poxy rock forever?

Why not kill of all the retards and disabled people then aswell as they would not beable to survive on there own and as a general rule they don't contribute much to society.

The retards and disabled are fine, I just want all the stupid peopel dead, such as you.
And I'm already working on getting off this rock, but the goddamn US governemnt won't give NASA the funding.

[Lethn]

It's the parents' bloody decision and no one elses, I hate it when idiots or arrogant family members feel the need to control people they're close to but in reality know nothing about just because they feel it's their 'duty'.

It doesn't take a scientist to tell you that.

[Morthor]

A foetus is not a human being, it is not born yet. Pro choice is best for everyone.

[Salo]

Pro choice. There can be no justification in my mind for forcing a woman to carry a child to term and then go through labour against her wishes.

Quite apart from the 'moral' or ethical arguments, the pragmatist in me sees no way to actually prevent abortions. All that happens, historically in those countries which have legalised abortion, and currently in those that haven't, is thousands of women brutalised, often injured, sometimes killed, by backstreet abortions.

Women have been aborting unwanted babies since time immemorial, they were just more frightened and in greater danger when they did, than they are in our current society.

I have two young nieces. I doubt either of them would find themselves in the position of wanting/needing an abortion, but I am damn sure I would want them to have the choice of doing so safely and without recrimination. Anybody fighting to get the laws changed in such a way as to remove their choice, I consider to be actively attempting to repress and potentialy harm those girls.

[OvanOf Twilight]

It doesn't take a scientist to tell you that.

Apparently it does actually, epoeple seem to have lost common sense. Hell I could make more money doing shit obvious studies of things we already know just to tell the public than by working on a new shuttle design.

[Baralis]

A foetus is not a human being, it is not born yet.

Thats a matter of opinion. Even scientist cannot tell you when a fetus becomes self aware. They speculate but do not know for certain.

[DR.NUMBERS]

I'm pro death...

[Baralis]

Pro choice. There can be no justification in my mind for forcing a woman to carry a child to term and then go through labour against her wishes.


How about her choosing to spread her legs? How about you take care of me since I see now reason in my mind for me to go threw the pains of employment.

[Lethn]

Apparently it does actually, epoeple seem to have lost common sense. Hell I could make more money doing shit obvious studies of things we already know just to tell the public than by working on a new shuttle design.

It's because of idiots that we're not talking to each other whilst travelling on spaceships :(

[OvanOf Twilight]

It's because of idiots that we're not talking to each other whilst travelling on spaceships :(

I know.... damn you stupid people, you ruin the world for the intellectuals!

[Lethn]

I want my firefly rip off! :(

[Salo]

So I voted for pro choice just because it's not pragmatic to try to ban abortion, just like it's not pragmatic to ban most drugs (some drugs you really have to do something to try to stop because they're so destructive by their very nature; an example is heroin).

At the risk of extreme thread drift: I agree with you some drugs require a level of control, but you've actually picked on one the drugs that is most rendered harmful by prohibition, and which represented potentially the least threat of individual harm prior to prohibition, apart from cannabis.

When heroin was available legally in Britain, addicts were generally able to sustain their habit without recourse to dangerous behaviour and without the health risks which are inherent to the poorer quality unregulated street drug. Many heroin addicts were capable of holding down employment for years without it being problem. It was addictive, yes, and harmful, but not especially harmful compared to many other drugs. The methadone we use to draw addicts off heroin is far more dangerous.

[BladeofHearts]

Pro-choice under circumstance. A woman who is impregnated by any means other than using her vagina and not her head (i.e. rape) deserves the right to abort. It seems wrong to force her to suffer through the emotional anguish just to save a few cells. If she got pregnant by means of idiocy, however, then I say make her have it. Then again...do we really want idiots raising children?

[Snowie]

It's pro-life and pro-death. Stop trying to mess with semantics.

[omnigol]

Thats a matter of opinion. Even scientist cannot tell you when a fetus becomes self aware. They speculate but do not know for certain.

Self awareness isn't the standard. No one would care anyway. Let say you killed someones baby, arguing that it wasn't self-aware won't help you in court. Whether it was or not everyone knows soon enough it would be.

[OvanOf Twilight]

It's pro-life and pro-death. Stop trying to mess with semantics.

Not necessarily, you sir are an idiot.
Choice doesn't mean death.
FALLACIOUS ARGUEMENT!
*Banishes snowie to eternal torment*

[Salo]

How about her choosing to spread her legs? How about you take care of me since I see now reason in my mind for me to go threw the pains of employment.

Oh she chose to spread her legs, therefore she chose the risk of pregnancy. Fuck her then, she now loses all rights over her own body. She no longer has the right to refuse to go through a lengthy, potentially dangerous, painful, frightening and life altering experience.

You honestly compare the pains of employment to a 9 month labour and the possibility of hours, or even a whole day in labour, with all the attendant health risks?

None of that matters. The truth is, a woman spreading her legs does not render her body a posession of the state. Its her body and she can damn well do what she likes with it. She can spread her legs, keep 'em closed, go to school, get a job and yes, refuse to go through something she doesn't want to go through.

Deal with it.

[Snowie]

Sorry for double-post but I can't be arsed to edit my previous one.

A foetus is not a human being, it is not born yet. Pro choice is best for everyone.

Wow, that's quite simplistic approach. I mean, I've gotten used to all that conformism around here, not wanting to take the consequences of your actions and such, but this? Seriously, according to this a 5-6-7-8 month old unborn baby qualifies for abortion. Cool.

[Desperado[1G]]

I'm against the murder of babies for the sake of expediency, so I guess that makes me "pro-life"

lol, the PC terms for this issue are so sad

[nate4449]

I'm Pro-Life, but really I have no problem with people killing babies. As long as they aren't morons pretending that they are in fact not babies. Honestly, if life doesn't begin at conception, then why do they sell condoms by the box? Lol@natural selection.

If I had it my way, I would extend the maximum abortion age of the fetus to say...18 years old. That way, the mother would have PLENTY of time to decide whether or not they wanted a child!

[Salo]

Nobody's murdering babies. They're aborting fetuses.

[Snowie]

Oh she chose to spread her legs, therefore she chose the risk of pregnancy. Fuck her then, she now loses all rights over her own body. She no longer has the right to refuse to go through a lengthy, potentially dangerous, painful, frightening and life altering experience.

You honestly compare the pains of employment to a 9 month labour and the possibility of hours, or even a whole day in labour, with all the attendant health risks?

None of that matters. The truth is, a woman spreading her legs does not render her body a posession of the state. Its her body and she can damn well do what she likes with it. She can spread her legs, keep 'em closed, go to school, get a job and yes, refuse to go through something she doesn't want to go through.

Deal with it.

It sure as hell might be her body but that does not give her the right to kill the child she is carrying. Well, believe it or not but if I killed you right now in an act of furious hatred and regreted it later I would still have to face the consequences of that. She is spreading her legs, knowing that she might get pregnant and possibly have to raise a child. Well, that's her problem, she knows the consequences and if she decides to still go for it you can't blame the unborn child for what a retard his mother is.

Deal with it.

I'm Pro-Life, but really I have no problem with people killing babies. As long as they aren't morons pretending that they are in fact not babies. Honestly, if life doesn't begin at conception, then why do they sell condoms by the box? Lol@natural selection.

If I had it my way, I would extend the maximum abortion age of the fetus to say...18 years old. That way, the mother would have PLENTY of time to decide whether or not they wanted a child!

I couldn't agree more.

[Burz'Ro]

;1720950']I'm against the murder of babies for the sake of expediency, so I guess that makes me "pro-life"

lol, the PC terms for this issue are so sad

QFT

[Desperado[1G]]

Nobody's murdering babies. They're aborting fetuses.

It's taking the life from what would otherwise be a living human being. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but it's the same thing.

[Salo]

Once it's a child sure. I disagree with when it becomes anything beyond an unthinking, non-sentient prospect of a child.

[Gloomrender]

Anyway want to take bets on how soon this becomes another retarded religion debate?

All the people who are pro life are crazy religious fundamentalists who think a brainless sack of flesh is alive.

[Spinewire]

Nobody's murdering babies. They're aborting fetuses.
24 weeks is more than viable

Infact i think the earliest born was 21 weeks and 6 days.

[nate4449]

Oh she chose to spread her legs, therefore she chose the risk of pregnancy. Fuck her then, she now loses all rights over her own body. She no longer has the right to refuse to go through a lengthy, potentially dangerous, painful, frightening and life altering experience.

Does the baby gain any rights? The baby has to go through that proccess too, but you never ask his opinion.

You honestly compare the pains of employment to a 9 month labour and the possibility of hours, or even a whole day in labour, with all the attendant health risks?

Sacrifice a baby to ensure the mother's health. Awesome.

None of that matters. The truth is, a woman spreading her legs does not render her body a posession of the state. Its her body and she can damn well do what she likes with it. She can spread her legs, keep 'em closed, go to school, get a job and yes, refuse to go through something she doesn't want to go through.

Is the baby a part of her body? Can the baby do what he wants? Does the baby want to be vaccumed/chopped into pieces?

:bang:

[Paganini]

"Give me liberty or give me death" proves that choice trumps life.

[Froed]

Until the child could survive outside the mother through artificial means, I say the mother can choose. But once the child can survive elsewhere, what right does the mother have other the life of that child?

The best solution is prevention IMO. Condoms AND birth control bitches. Can never be too safe.

wtb sex ed that doesn't only say, "abstinence!"

[Snowie]

Once it's a child sure. I disagree with when it becomes anything beyond an unthinking, non-sentient prospect of a child.

Guess what, Einstein, there is no way of determining the phase in which it becomes what you consider a no-go for abortion. Would you still risk it, knowing it MIGHT be actually self-concious? That's the whole point of the arguement, we can't possibly determine when it becomes self-concious so there is no way we can say that killing it before this or that stage is alright. What we know is that it is a unique array of genes with all sorts of characteristics (looks, brain-capacity, future diseases) written into the DNA.

[Desperado[1G]]

Once it's a child sure. I disagree with when it becomes anything beyond an unthinking, non-sentient prospect of a child.

All the people who are pro life are crazy religious fundamentalists who think a brainless sack of flesh is alive.

That's horrible man. I don't think you guys truly believe what you're saying here.

Then again that's the terrifying part of this whole thing isn't it? There are people who actually do believe in rationale like this.

[Salo]

Very few abortions occur so late, the vast majority are early abortions. Late abortions tend to happen primarily when there is a risk of severe abnormality or a risk to the mother's health.

[Snowie]

All the people who are pro life are crazy religious fundamentalists who think a brainless sack of flesh is alive.

Personally I know a lot of atheists who are against killing unborn children. Just because there is no way of determining whether it is a brainless sack of flesh or a human being already.

[Salo]

;1720992']That's horrible man. I don't think you guys truly believe what you're saying here.

Then again that's the terrifying part of this whole thing isn't it? There are people who actually do believe in rationale like this.

Honestly? Yes. Yes I do believe that. I am likewise terrified, truly terrified, by the people in this thread who espouse a view that the rights of that lump of flesh supercede and outweigh the rights of a living sentient and aware human being.


Seriously. You people frighten me. Somebody get a burning torch 'cause this thread's running straight into the fucking dark ages.

[omnigol]

;1720992']That's horrible man. I don't think you guys truly believe what you're saying here.

Then again that's the terrifying part of this whole thing isn't it? There are people who actually do believe in rationale like this.

Well all unborn babies start out as gerbils and then slowly evolve into humans while in the womb. You never know if it's a human being until it's born. You could be getting a gerbil or a wombat; you never know, thus abortion is justifiable.

[Snowie]

Honestly? Yes. Yes I do believe that. I am likewise terrified, truly terrified, by the people in this thread who espouse a view that the rights of that lump of flesh supercede and outweigh the rights of a living sentient and aware human being.


Seriously. You people frighten me. Somebody get a burning torch 'cause this thread's running straight into the fucking dark ages.

I suppose that running a serious argument without resorting to bullshit arguments and statements like 'straight back to middle ages' or 'religious fanatics' is beyond the capabilities of some people here? Sheesh.

[nate4449]

All the people who are pro life think a brainless sack of flesh is alive.

Hey, thats no way to speak about the mother!

Though, I bet it could defend her argument.

[Salo]

I suppose that running a serious argument without resorting to bullshit arguments and statements like 'straight back to middle ages' or 'religious fanatics' is beyond the capabilities of some people here? Sheesh.


I consider this a fairly fundamental freedom. I also consider the move away from backstreet abortions, which our societies both made in fairly recent decades to have been a profound step forward.

Taking us back to a time when women used coat hangers for self-abortion, or drank bottles of whiskey and threw themselves down stairs to try and force a miscarriage is a retrograde step.


(and the comment about being frightened was in response to somebody expressing fright at anybody holding such outrageous views as mine.)

[Snowie]

I consider this a fairly fundamental freedom. I also consider the move away from backstreet abortions, which our societies both made in fairly recent decades to have been a profound step forward.

Taking us back to a time when women used coat hangers for self-abortion, or drank bottles of whiskey and threw themselves down stairs to try and force a miscarriage is a retrograde step.


(and the comment about being frightened was in response to somebody expressing fright at anybody holding such outrageous views as mine.)

I don't deny the fact that if someone wants to get an abortion they will do it anyways. But on the other hand, there's always the people who leave their babies in trash-cans and other strange places just after birth. You're basically saying that because some people risk their lives to kill a child it should be socially acceptable to do it legally without that risk.

[nate4449]

Very few abortions occur so late, the vast majority are early abortions. Late abortions tend to happen primarily when there is a risk of severe abnormality or a risk to the mother's health.

How do you know if they were "early or late"? Do you judge by an average growth period? Do you realize that different babies grow at different rates? How do you know when the fetus becomes conscious? Have you ever spoken with a 1mo old fetus?

Why is there all of this concern for the mother's "health", when we're cutting up defenseless/speechless babies?

I guess to solve this stupid arguement, we really need science to advance to the point where they can remove the fetus and let it grow outside of the mother's body before being sent to an orphanage.

[Salo]

I don't deny the fact that if someone wants to get an abortion they will do it anyways. But on the other hand, there's always the people who leave their babies in trash-cans and other strange places just after birth. You're basically saying that because some people risk their lives to kill a child it should be socially acceptable to do it legally without that risk.

*Shakes head* not exactly. I do believe, quite fundamentally, that a woman should have absolutely the last word when it comes to her body and that includes the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Alongside that I have a pragmatic view that says we should institute our laws with a regard for human nature. Whilst killing a fellow human being (by which I mean a person) has always been considered an aberration except under very specific circumstances (such as war and justice), abortions have been a fairly common part of life throughout human history. As long as women have been having babies, there have been some trying to prevent that birth. We cannot prevent it. It is natural that a percentage of pregnant women will not wish to bear their child and it is an ever present part of human existence that some will try to terminate their pregnancy through whatever means are available.

It was that part really that I was referring to when I referred to going back to the dark ages. The practical result of such legislation would be to force women into dangerous and medically unsound procedures or other desperate measures.

[Apex Vertigo]

Pro-choice... because if I get some girl pregnant (condom break or some other accident) I'd like to get rid of it. Not going to sugarcoat it, I'm just not ready for a kid and I don't see flushing away clusters of cells or a loosely developed fetus as murder. Sorry.

[Snowie]

*Shakes head* not exactly. I do believe, quite fundamentally, that a woman should have absolutely the last word when it comes to her body and that includes the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Alongside that I have a pragmatic view that says we should institute our laws with a regard for human nature. Whilst killing a fellow human being (by which I mean a person) has always been considered an aberration except under very specific circumstances (such as war and justice), abortions have been a fairly common part of life throughout human history. As long as women have been having babies, there have been some trying to prevent that birth. We cannot prevent it. It is natural that a percentage of pregnant women will not wish to bear their child and it is an ever present part of human existence that some will try to terminate their pregnancy through whatever means are available.

It was that part really that I was referring to when I referred to going back to the dark ages. The practical result of such legislation would be to force women into dangerous and medically unsound procedures or other desperate measures.

Well I totally understand your point of view and unlike most pro-choice people you actually have some sort of explanation for it. I can't say I don't agree but I must underline that we can't possibly determine when it becomes human. That's the problem behind the whole thing. If we want to take the risk of possibly killing a human being, so it be, but I will never agree to that. It might be just a lump of tissues but then again, it might not.

[iskra]

I am a male and I assume most of you are males also. You will never be pregnent or carry a child so you need realize that you should not have an opinion. Wether it is your kid or not you seriously have nothing to say or any rights that put you above a female, please shut the fuck up. Her body, her decision, not by the state or man or religion. if you are male will never have to worry about having a kid so understand you are not pro life or pro choice, you dont believe shit..

as the common saying goes, if you dont want an abortion, do not fucking get one

[Nefastus]

Anyway want to take bets on how soon this becomes another retarded religion debate?

I bet it started when you posted that. Good job.

[Snowie]

I am a male and I assume most of you are males also. You will never be pregnent or carry a child so you need realize that you should not have an opinion. Wether it is your kid or not you seriously have nothing to say or any rights that put you above a female, please shut the fuck up. Her body, her decision, not by the state or man or religion. if you are male will never have to worry about having a kid so understand you are not pro life or pro choice, you dont believe shit..

Well, I'm not a driver, does this mean I have nothing to say concerning oil prices? Please shape up and finish highschool before you start randomly flaming people without having a clue.

[Apex Vertigo]

I am a male and I assume most of you are males also. You will never be pregnent or carry a child so you need realize that you should not have an opinion. Wether it is your kid or not you seriously have nothing to say or any rights that put you above a female, please shut the fuck up. Her body, her decision, not by the state or man or religion. if you are male will never have to worry about having a kid so understand you are not pro life or pro choice, you dont believe shit..

Just like white people shouldn't fight for civil rights for other races. Abortion is a matter that is important to everyone, not just to the ones that have to go through it, and you are fucking retarded if you think that a male shouldn't have an opinion on the subject, especially for the pro-life guys.

[Salaman]

I am a male and I assume most of you are males also. You will never be pregnent or carry a child so you need realize that you should not have an opinion. Wether it is your kid or not you seriously have nothing to say or any rights that put you above a female, please shut the fuck up. Her body, her decision, not by the state or man or religion. if you are male will never have to worry about having a kid so understand you are not pro life or pro choice, you dont believe shit..

What a self-centered perspective. All of us were born from mothers and we all interact with each other and change the world for better or worse. Every abortion is the denial of another life that could influence anyone and everyone else so, no, it isn't something that just affects women.

[Nefastus]

Pro-Choice, but I also agree that it should be consented by both father and mother.

[Salo]

Well I totally understand your point of view and unlike most pro-choice people you actually have some sort of explanation for it. I can't say I don't agree but I must underline that we can't possibly determine when it becomes human. That's the problem behind the whole thing. If we want to take the risk of possibly killing a human being, so it be, but I will never agree to that. It might be just a lump of tissues but then again, it might not.

*Nods* I agree we cannot determine with any degree of accuracy when the fetus becomes aware, and therefore in most people's terms 'human'. By aware, I don't necessarily mean thinking and self-aware, as child development studies have shown fairly clearly the prgression that a baby makes during its first few months and even years towards self-awareness. I believe they have actually tracked the development point at which a baby starts to separate itself from those around it (e.g for the baby its own desires and its mother's desires are one and the same). By aware I mean able to sense and feel at whatever level.

I am too tired right now to go searching for sources (it's almost 2 am :P) but I think there is a cut off point at which we know they aren't capable of thought/feeling. Basically a point before the brain is fully connected (really blinding you with science there huh?:P I am no medic I am afraid, therefore I paraphrase my limited understanding). That happens significantly earlier than the current abortion limit and there is an argument to be had about what the baby is capable of feeling throughout the pregnancy from that point on.

[Snowie]

Just like white people shouldn't fight for civil rights for other races. Abortion is a matter that is important to everyone, not just to the ones that have to go through it, and you are fucking retarded if you think that a male shouldn't have an opinion on the subject, especially for the pro-life guys.

I suppose he has no idea how freedom of speech works. Poor Voltaire, I think my sig would be different if he knew what clueless retards the world might breed.

[Snowie]

*Nods* I agree we cannot determine with any degree of accuracy when the fetus becomes aware, and therefore in most people's terms 'human'. By aware, I don't necessarily mean thinking and self-aware, as child development studies have shown fairly clearly the prgression that a baby makes during its first few months and even years towards self-awareness. I believe they have actually tracked the development point at which a baby starts to separate itself from those around it (e.g for the baby its own desires and its mother's desires are one and the same). By aware I mean able to sense and feel at whatever level.

I am too tired right now to go searching for sources (it's almost 2 am :P) but I think there is a cut off point at which we know they aren't capable of thought/feeling. Basically a point before the brain is fully connected (really blinding you with science there huh?:P I am no medic I am afraid, therefore I paraphrase my limited understanding). That happens significantly earlier than the current abortion limit and there is an argument to be had about what the baby is capable of feeling throughout the pregnancy from that point on.

Well, sir, I highly doubt there is/will be any possibility to determine what is needed to be sure that we are not aborting a human anytime soon. Yet, I'm glad you're at least not one of those mindless pro-choicers who only want abortions for the sake of fucking anything that moves without facing the consequences afterwards. Still, I disagree.

edit; spelling

[Marrik]

i support killing the babies right after they are born by throwing them off a cliff, in the traditional Chinese manner.

[biggunsar]

ANYONE that lives in america and says PRO LIFE. isnt' american. Go back to russia.

Everyone is allowed a mistake. And no one should have to pay for it, for 18 years.

But abortion should be limited to 3 visits. End of story, citing womens safety.

[Snowie]

ANYONE that lives in america and says PRO LIFE. isnt' american. Go back to russia.

Everyone is allowed a mistake. And no one should have to pay for it, for 18 years.

But abortion should be limited to 3 visits. End of story, citing womens safety.

I thought America was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom restricted by the freedom of others. Why do you wish to deprive an unborn child of its freedoms? GB2 Russia, around 1917

[Vanno]

Pro "out of town before the bitch knows".

Seconded. Anyway, I'm pro-abortion, anti-child support.

[iskra]

I am clueless and retarded? What do I have to do, write a fucking a book. It is not complicated. Of course YOU would say it is not black and white just so you feel your reasons for controlling a womyn are valid. How the fuck am I self centered? I am not the one who thinks everyone should follow your pathetic morals or beliefs. Life means nothing to you, all you want to control everyone else. It is okay that you support murdering people, but an american fetus is absolutley sacred? You are one sick fuck

[Nefastus]

I thought America was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom restricted by the freedom of others. Why do you wish to deprive an unborn child of its freedoms? GB2 Russia, around 1917

I didn't know that a few weeks old fetus is free. I always thought that it was a tiny organic structure entrapped in women's body. Did I miss some freedom demanding marches and protests by undeveloped fetuses? Damn, I knew I should have been watching more Onion.

[Snowie]

I am clueless and retarded? What do I have to do, write a fucking a book. It is not complicated. Of course YOU would say it is not black and white just so you feel your reasons for controlling a womyn are valid. How the fuck am I self centered? I am not the one who thinks everyone should follow your pathetic morals or beliefs. Life means nothing to you, all you want to control everyone else. It is okay that you support murdering people, but an american fetus is absolutley sacred? You are one sick fuck

Guys like you are doing more harm to the "pro-choice community" than good when you think about it. First of all, you've been bashed from both sides I think and pointless flaming doesn't make your argument any more valid. Yes, actually it is quite complicated, maybe after you've finished highschool you'll notice that there's more to it. I don't think anyone here said they supported murdering people, if you're talking about capital punishment then killing a fully responsible developed human being for murder and rape is totally different from killing an innocent child.

[Snowie]

I didn't know that a few weeks old fetus is free. I always thought that it was a tiny organic structure entrapped in women's body. Did I miss some freedom demanding marches and protests by undeveloped fetuses? Damn, I knew I should have been watching more Onion.

I've never seen any babies march for their freedom, yet you don't assume they have none, do you?

OT: Come back to irc, plx? :P

[biggunsar]

I've never seen any babies march for their freedom, yet you don't assume they have none, do you?

OT: Come back to irc, plx? :P

Since baby's can't voice thier opinion...NO they are not free.

[Nefastus]

I've never seen any babies march for their freedom, yet you don't assume they have none, do you?

OT: Come back to irc, plx? :P

Well, I probably haven't seen any babies march for their freedom because... well... they don't know how to walk yet. Most likely they must have been crawling and I missed it :/ As for fetuses, I'm still trying to figure out how they are trying to fight for their rights. It's kind of like having a chicken egg resist being made into your delicious morning breakfast.

OT: Maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but then I don't feel like reading about Lorbaldur's obsession with Compton, rap, McCain, jews and black people.

[Snowie]

Since baby's can't voice thier opinion...NO they are not free.

Awesome, that means this puts them lower than animals, doesn't it?

[Honest Bill]

Awesome, that means this puts them lower than animals, doesn't it?


Yeah but if you put a baby in a fight with any animal they're bound to lose.

[Bojangles34]

If we outlaw abortions look what we are doing.... Hurting those poor innocent doctors that work at abortion clinics. Pro choice "Keep our abortionists wealthy"

[Snowie]

Yeah but if you put a baby in a fight with any animal they're bound to lose.

Well, they do sorta stand a chance against the smaller ones or insects I suppose :P

OT: Maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but then I don't feel like reading about Lorbaldur's obsession with Compton, rap, McCain, jews and black people.

Come on, he's just trolling most of the time anyways. Don't let him get the impression he made you leave.

[Nefastus]

Yeah but if you put a baby in a fight with any animal they're bound to lose.

What about a baby and a puppy?!

[Honest Bill]

If we outlaw abortions look what we are doing.... Hurting those poor innocent doctors that work at abortion clinics. Pro choice "Keep our abortionists wealthy"

Not to mention the Forcep manufacturers

@Nefastus
Puppy would just chew the baby to death

[Nefastus]

Well, they do sorta stand a chance against the smaller ones or insects I suppose :P



Come on, he's just trolling most of the time anyways. Don't let him get the impression he made you leave.

Well, besides very rare decent discussions, majority of the channel's content consists of mainly LB expressing his need for attention. Besides, Gorunkha is so fucking fat that there's barely any space left anyways!

I'll stop by tonight. But I'm expecting LB spamming whole channel with:

DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
VOTE McCAIN!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
I LOVE ISRAEL AND COMPTON!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!
DEROGATORY NAME FOR BLACK PEOPLE!

Anyways, back on topic.

Q: What's funnier than a dead baby?
A: A dead baby in a clown costume!

[Tzacharu]

Pro-Life. If there is a potential for life, and you kill it, that's a life lost. If the parents didn't want a baby in the first place, maybe the parents should've thought of that in the first place. Its called responsibility. Use condoms and birth control. If the mother wants to give it up to an organization, that's fine, so long as the child is alive and in care.

If the woman was a victim of a rape crime.. then things are different. It wasn't due to the parents' lack of responsibility, but the crime of another. Bottom line, life should not be prevented because of the lack of responsibility of another.

The parents HAD the choice of having or not having a baby when they had sex, and they agreed, by having sex, that there was a chance they'd have a baby. If they didn't want a baby, they should've had responsible sex.

[Vanno]

Uhm? You do realize abortion is a choice often made by adults too, correct?

[Tzacharu]

Uhm? You do realize abortion is a choice often made by adults too, correct?

Correct.

[Osirus]

As we have had an influx of new people i wonder if it has brought any god fearing foke into the mix or just the usual blend of 1 part heathen to 2 parts murderer that i have grown to know and love.

I have made this post a twice before hand, first one got locked the second did not... i think. Anyway due to branhammer archiving everything you can't even look at the old posts which i find a little odd.


Anyway Pro Life or Pro Choice?


they probably did that so spook data miners could dig through it, to find all the anti-government posts; you know, to help FEMA with their death camps.

I'm pro-life, and it's got little to with fear; it's about responsibility ... don't want children? don't sex it up without protection/birth control. in the case of rape? evolutionists might argue it's the selfish gene attempting to perpetuate it's life cycle.:rolleyes:

if one is to have total dominion over her own body, I suppose she should have the choice; whatever complications come with that choice, are her's as well.

[Fluffington]

Pro choice, when fetuses turn 18 and vote, then they can democratically tell us how to treat them.

[Gloomrender]

Hey, thats no way to speak about the mother!

Though, I bet it could defend her argument.

Clearly the mother is of no further use to society as it has spawned offspring.

[Temet nosce]

Neither. I'm pro abortion, I think that there are to many people having children.

(Ok, ok, so yeah I'm pro choice but the above statement was semi serious, what the fuck is wrong with all these people who keep breeding like rabbits?)

[KaneK89]

Against abortion but for killing babies.

Just kidding.

Frankly, I think it's ludicrous to force a women to have a child she doesn't want. It's her fucking body. All you self-righteous asshats can fuck off. It's none of your business, and none of the government's business either.

[Apex Vertigo]

Pro-Life. If there is a potential for life, and you kill it, that's a life lost. If the parents didn't want a baby in the first place, maybe the parents should've thought of that in the first place. Its called responsibility. Use condoms and birth control. If the mother wants to give it up to an organization, that's fine, so long as the child is alive and in care.

If the woman was a victim of a rape crime.. then things are different. It wasn't due to the parents' lack of responsibility, but the crime of another. Bottom line, life should not be prevented because of the lack of responsibility of another.

The parents HAD the choice of having or not having a baby when they had sex, and they agreed, by having sex, that there was a chance they'd have a baby. If they didn't want a baby, they should've had responsible sex.

So you are ok with abortion in the case of a broken condom?

[Maas]

Refrain from attacking the dissenting opinions by throwing "suck my balls" etc. into the debate.

Arguing is fine, but let's keep the discussion at least a little mature.

[LordTenacious]

So you are ok with abortion in the case of a broken condom?

That's why you double bag it. Don't you ever go grocery shopping?

[Apex Vertigo]

That's why you double bag it. Don't you ever go grocery shopping?

I would double bag it but with the economy in the shape that it's in, I can't afford the cost.

[Nefastus]

Pro-Life. If there is a potential for life, and you kill it, that's a life lost. If the parents didn't want a baby in the first place, maybe the parents should've thought of that in the first place. Its called responsibility. Use condoms and birth control. If the mother wants to give it up to an organization, that's fine, so long as the child is alive and in care.

If the woman was a victim of a rape crime.. then things are different. It wasn't due to the parents' lack of responsibility, but the crime of another. Bottom line, life should not be prevented because of the lack of responsibility of another.

The parents HAD the choice of having or not having a baby when they had sex, and they agreed, by having sex, that there was a chance they'd have a baby. If they didn't want a baby, they should've had responsible sex.

Did you know that every time you ejaculate you kill millions and millions of potential babies?! You are against abortion yet you commit a genocide every time you FAP?! HYPOCRITE! Shame on you!

[Tzacharu]

So you are ok with abortion in the case of a broken condom?

Wear two.. If you really do not want a baby, then wearing two shouldn't really be a problem. If the woman was taking birth control, with any luck birth would've been prevented anyway.

There are cases where there will be babies even when every precaution is taken, but that's just the way it goes.

[LordTenacious]

I would double bag it but with the economy in the shape that it's in, I can't afford the cost.

But you're willing to risk having the cost of a baby.

Weird.

[Tzacharu]

Did you know that every time you ejaculate you kill millions and millions of potential babies?! You are against abortion yet you commit a genocide every time you FAP?! HYPOCRITE! Shame on you!

It takes two to tango.

[Apex Vertigo]

Wear two.. If you really do not want a baby, then wearing two shouldn't really be a problem. If the woman was taking birth control, with any luck birth would've been prevented anyway.

There are cases where there will be babies even when every precaution is taken, but that's just the way it goes.

Seriously they are like 20 bucks a box... I am not going to use 2 every time, besides then what's even the point you won't even feel it.

So what's your take on 'when every precaution is taken'? I mean, that's not irresponsibility, is it? Should we have sex only with people we are ok spending the rest of our lives with?

Yea I just asked 3 questions in a row, deal with it....?

[Toxic Waste]

Did you know that every time you ejaculate you kill millions and millions of potential babies?! You are against abortion yet you commit a genocide every time you FAP?! HYPOCRITE! Shame on you!

Technically, they are only half-babies.

[Paganini]

Pro choice, when fetuses turn 18 and vote, then they can democratically tell us how to treat them.

My personal favorite argument so far

[Behhemoth]

If you are pro-life consider the following...
Mother doesn't want baby.
Mother has baby because pro-lifers say she has to.
Mother lives terrible life because of raising child. (torture)
So instead of killing you would rather torture? I thought everyone agreed a while ago that torture is worse than death.

[Behhemoth]

Technically, they are only half-babies.

Every time a woman has a period she kills half baby(s)

[Toxic Waste]

If you are pro-life consider the following...
Mother doesn't want baby.
Mother has baby because pro-lifers say she has to.
Mother lives terrible life because of raising child. (torture)
So instead of killing you would rather torture? I thought everyone agreed a while ago that torture is worse than death.

Consider the following...
Mother doesn't want baby.
Mother has sex.
Mother is a dumbass because the biologically intended result of sex is: BABY!

[Nefastus]

Wear two.. If you really do not want a baby, then wearing two shouldn't really be a problem. If the woman was taking birth control, with any luck birth would've been prevented anyway.

There are cases where there will be babies even when every precaution is taken, but that's just the way it goes.

Did you know that birth control pills, specifically, morning after pills basically cause an abortion? The only difference is that it happens morning after you have sex instead of weeks or months later. So according to Pro-Lifers a next day abortion is fine but anything later is BAD BAD BABY KILLING?!

[Behhemoth]

Consider the following...
Mother doesn't want baby.
Mother has sex.
Mother is a dumbass because the biologically intended result of sex is: BABY!

Dumbasses like her still get to vote every election. Maybe we shouldn't let them anymore?

Exactly! And miscarriages are manslaughter. ;)

lol what does that make abortion then?

[Toxic Waste]

Every time a woman has a period she kills half baby(s)

Exactly! And miscarriages are manslaughter. ;)

Dumbasses like her still get to vote every election. Maybe we shouldn't let them anymore?

Not criticizing, but if you vote for one politician, the other doesn't die.

[Tzacharu]

Seriously they are like 20 bucks a box... I am not going to use 2 every time, besides then what's even the point you won't even feel it.

So what's your take on 'when every precaution is taken'? I mean, that's not irresponsibility, is it? Should we have sex only with people we are ok spending the rest of our lives with?

Yea I just asked 3 questions in a row, deal with it....?

When you have sex, you are acknowledging there is a chance, no matter how small, that you will have a baby with that person. It is your conscious decision that you are willing to have a baby with that person because you are having sex. It's tough luck when you have a baby and you wore two condoms, had birth control and everything else, but it was your choice. You chose to take that risk and you ended up in that .1% category.

I'm not saying someone should only have sex with their soul mate, but I believe I can safely say that a good majority of abortion cases are because the parents did not have protected sex. If you really don't want the baby, give it up, I feel that is more correct than killing it. I don't care when the baby is officially considered "living", but we can all agree that a fetus has the potential to be a human, and to kill it is taking away a potential human life.

[paade]

pro choice for underage mothers or if the mother has been raped. Or giving birth could be dangerous, like if its the son of Satan

Or if the parents are very ugly.

[Behhemoth]

Exactly! And miscarriages are manslaughter. ;)



Not criticizing, but if you vote for one politician, the other doesn't die.

Who says dieing is worse than not getting elected?
I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion then huh?

[Vanno]

I would double bag it but with the economy in the shape that it's in, I can't afford the cost.

Lolz, and those cheapo condoms PP give out can't be trusted.

[Drock]

Meh, I think abortion is fine, I don't get why people care so much. I mean really, thousands of innocent people die every day. You aren't bitching or shedding a tear over them. I wouldn't have cared if I was aborted, you know why? Because you aren't even conscious of whats going on. People need to give it up, why do they care so much? We are talking about individuals you will never meet, so why care if they die? Do you get all sad and weepy when you see in the paper that some person died yesterday after being jumped and stabbed in the ally by their house? No, you don't. Stop acting like its a big deal, because it isn't

[Behhemoth]

Here is an interesting thought, why not just give oral to each other if it feels better (for the guy) and there is no chance of a baby (unless the chick is naked, and you fall over, and ejaculate as your penis slips into her vagina)(or you are a terrible shot)(:))

[Toxic Waste]

Who says dieing is worse than not getting elected?
I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion then huh?

Nature says. Everything you do, instinctual and conscious, is either directly or indirectly aimed at survival.

[Behhemoth]

Meh, I think abortion is fine, I don't get why people care so much. I mean really, thousands of innocent people die every day. You aren't bitching or shedding a tear over them. I wouldn't have cared if I was aborted, you know why? Because you aren't even conscious of whats going on. People need to give it up, why do they care so much? We are talking about individuals you will never meet, so why care if they die? Do you get all sad and weepy when you see in the paper that some person died yesterday after being jumped and stabbed in the ally by their house? No, you don't. Stop acting like its a big deal, because it isn't

A very good argument! I also thought I would add that people get more worked up over abortions than there own relatives dieing :rolleyes:

[Apex Vertigo]

When you have sex, you are acknowledging there is a chance, no matter how small, that you will have a baby with that person. It is your conscious decision that you are willing to have a baby with that person because you are having sex. It's tough luck when you have a baby and you wore two condoms, had birth control and everything else, but it was your choice. You chose to take that risk and you ended up in that .1% category.

I'm not saying someone should only have sex with their soul mate, but I believe I can safely say that a good majority of abortion cases are because the parents did not have protected sex. If you really don't want the baby, give it up, I feel that is more correct than killing it. I don't care when the baby is officially considered "living", but we can all agree that a fetus has the potential to be a human, and to kill it is taking away a potential human life.

'Potential life' can be anything. Hell, you can use that to say not having sex at all is killing potential life... because you could have potentially gotten her pregnant. When people use the word 'potential' you admit that it is not in-fact life.

[Behhemoth]

Nature says. Everything you do, instinctual and conscious, is either directly or indirectly aimed at survival.

Woah you just made me think a lot. At first I was thinking of saying "Well I just pinched myself..", but then I thought but wait! I only did that because I wanted to prove him wrong, which could be considered survival, indirectly. Kudos!

[Toxic Waste]

Woah you just made me think a lot. At first I was thinking of saying "Well I just pinched myself..", but then I thought but wait! I only did that because I wanted to prove him wrong, which could be considered survival, indirectly. Kudos!

Survival in forumfall. It's almost as important.

[iskra]

Just like white people shouldn't fight for civil rights for other races. Abortion is a matter that is important to everyone, not just to the ones that have to go through it, and you are fucking retarded if you think that a male shouldn't have an opinion on the subject, especially for the pro-life guys.

I did not say no should fight for woman's right to an abortion. I am saying so called pro-lifers do nothing but try and control people, women in this case. Pro-lifers actually want to force and put harm to other people (not in the sense of blowing up a clinic).

Pro choice which is what you would label me I guess is pretty much a neutral stance. There is no secret agenda, pro choice is not going out and making abortion required.. Pro life on the hand wants to force the opposite which is no better. Thats what gets me upset is people are actively trying to decrease others freedom just cause they think gods fucking gift to the world..

Just because you people like to act intellectual and try to be wordy as possible does not mean the issue is complicated. Just admit that this is another thing you want to force on someone and that you will use anything to control a womyn.

Pro-life = dangerous, aggressive, on the offense

Pro-choice = neutral territory

[Dirty l3um]

Pro Life

I dont support killing babies. At 14 days (after conception) before the mother to be even knows she preggers, the child has brainwaves, at 4 weeks, the child had a heart beat. so about the time when the mother thinks shes pregnant the child already had brainwaves and a heartbeat. if you came you came to car accident and one of the victims had a heartbeat would you say he wants living?

if you arent mature enough to have a child, dont have sex, and if you choose to you will reap the consequences of such.


the alternative argument is no more than "Pro Choice, so no one has to take responsibility for their actions"

[Yantheman]

Pro Life

I dont support killing babies. At 14 days (after conception) before the mother to be even knows she preggers, the child has brainwaves, at 4 weeks, the child had a heart beat. so about the time when the mother thinks shes pregnant the child already had brainwaves and a heartbeat. if you came you came to car accident and one of the victims had a heartbeat would you say he wants living?

if you arent mature enough to have a child, dont have sex, and if you choose to you will reap the consequences of such.


the alternative argument is no more than "Pro Choice, so no one has to take responsibility for their actions"


What if a woman gets raped? She have to have that baby?

[Dirty l3um]

yea i think she should. now although many people may think differently, think of how many cases of that their actually are, opposed to the cases of casual sex with many partners that ends in pregnancy. the cases are very few and very far between. i personally know a woman who was raped and had an abortion over 15 years ago and still feels the effects of it today. she wishes she didnt kill her child

SO when you use an argument like that you must see that the case you are speaking of makes up less than half a % of abortions. its not exactly a valid argument.

how do you justify all of the women killing babies because they had casual sex and just dont want the consequences? can i kill a bookie if i dont have the money i owe him?

[Nefastus]

What if a woman gets raped? She have to have that baby?

But you see! It's her fault! She wasn't mature and strong enough to protect her vagina from the rapist. Fuck the fact that she makes barely enough money to support herself, her siblings and her ill mother, FUCK THAT! Because of her clear lack of maturity she has to take on the responsibility of raising a child which will live in poverty while being exposed to the worst of the humanity, possibly ending up as a criminal in the prison. Shit, it's better to be a responsible mother and bring that human being to life than consider their actual life in this world and the circumstances they are born into.

Am I right?! YEAH?!

[Dirty l3um]

But you see! It's her fault! She wasn't mature and strong enough to protect her vagina from the rapist. Fuck the fact that she makes barely enough money to support herself, her siblings and her ill mother, FUCK THAT! Because of her clear lack of maturity she has to take on the responsibility of raising a child which will live in poverty while being exposed to the worst of the humanity, possibly ending up as a criminal in the prison. Shit, it's better to be a responsible mother and bring that human being to life than consider their actual life in this world and the circumstances they are born into.

Am I right?! YEAH?!

read what i said in my last post. using an argument that is really an anomaly is no way to defend your position. you must defend the fact that the child is not living. the child will have brainwaves and a heartbeat before the mother even aborts him/her. defend the fact that this is not a human, a person worth having a shot a living.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Need moar other option.


I agree with alfar here.

I am pro states rights on this one. Let each state vote on which side of the fence they want to fall on. If the people of SC want zero abortion, and the people of NC want the state to pay for anyone to get one that wants it, both are fine with me. My problem is trying to cram a diverse population into one way of thinking.

[Behhemoth]

read what i said in my last post. using an argument that is really an anomaly is no way to defend your position. you must defend the fact that the child is not living. the child will have brainwaves and a heartbeat before the mother even aborts him/her. defend the fact that this is not a human, a person worth having a shot a living.

You can't decide for an unborn baby whether it wants to or does not want to live. That is for the parent decide. You don't see random people going up to parents and saying you need to feed your kid more fruit! do you?

[nate4449]

But you see! It's her fault! She wasn't mature and strong enough to protect her vagina from the rapist. Fuck the fact that she makes barely enough money to support herself, her siblings and her ill mother, FUCK THAT! Because of her clear lack of maturity she has to take on the responsibility of raising a child which will live in poverty while being exposed to the worst of the humanity, possibly ending up as a criminal in the prison. Shit, it's better to be a responsible mother and bring that human being to life than consider their actual life in this world and the circumstances they are born into.

Am I right?! YEAH?!

Because she totally has to keep it, right?

[Nefastus]

read what i said in my last post. using an argument that is really an anomaly is no way to defend your position. you must defend the fact that the child is not living. the child will have brainwaves and a heartbeat before the mother even aborts him/her. defend the fact that this is not a human, a person worth having a shot a living.

Yay! A child has brainwaves! Awesome! So how did that help you when you were still in your mothers stomach? Did you have any interesting deep thoughts going on there while you were in her belly? Any insightful philosophies or theories you can share with us that you came up with when you as a fetus were 4 weeks old?

Hey, I have a secret for you.

Chickens have brainwaves too! Yet you don't mind making KFC and scrambled eggs with them, do you?

[Dirty l3um]

You can't decide for an unborn baby whether it wants to or does not want to live. That is for the parent decide. You don't see random people going up to parents and saying you need to feed your kid more fruit! do you?

so if i want to kill my toddler i can just up and off him? that is socially acceptable? thats right? just take a pick axe to the back of his head? kind of like the surgical tools used in partial birth abortions? your argument has no basis in reality. my father cant decide he wants to kill me, i cant decide i want to kill my kid. eating more fruit is much different then being dead

Nefastus: so i can kill people and eat them for breakfast?

[Nefastus]

Because she totally has to keep it, right?

Oh right, let's give it up for adoption! Yeah! Let's have a fucking kid go through foster homes and such for 18 years just to end up on the street with psychological issues.

Have you ever met someone who has been given up for adoption? I have! Most of them have serious psychological issues associated with either time in the social services or with not knowing who's their parent and why did they decide to abandon them.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Oh right, let's give it up for adoption! Yeah! Let's have a fucking kid go through foster homes and such for 18 years just to end up on the street with psychological issues.

Have you ever met someone who has been given up for adoption? I have! Most of them have serious psychological issues associated with either time in the social services or with not knowing who's their parent and why did they decide to abandon them.

Odds are the people you have met that were given up for adoption had crackheads for moms.

[Entreri]

The funny thing someone told me is that abortions have went up under the current president because he cut social programs. I don't really know if it is true, but it would make sense. I hope it's true, would be funny as hell for each party to have the effect the other wants.

[Dirty l3um]

Oh right, let's give it up for adoption! Yeah! Let's have a fucking kid go through foster homes and such for 18 years just to end up on the street with psychological issues.

Have you ever met someone who has been given up for adoption? I have! Most of them have serious psychological issues associated with either time in the social services or with not knowing who's their parent and why did they decide to abandon them.


lets think with the right head before having sex eh? so you using the argument that you think the child will end up messed up? what about you? would you rather be dead right now or have just left the orphanage

[Desperado[1G]]

Oh right, let's give it up for adoption! Yeah! Let's have a fucking kid go through foster homes and such for 18 years just to end up on the street with psychological issues.

Have you ever met someone who has been given up for adoption? I have! Most of them have serious psychological issues associated with either time in the social services or with not knowing who's their parent and why did they decide to abandon them.

CLEARLY the correct alternative is to kill them at childhood.

[Viluin]

Pro Choice. However, if a man does not want a baby but the woman does not want an abortion then it should be her problem, the man should be free of all responsibilities.

[Behhemoth]

Pro-lifers argue with emotions, and pro-choicers argue with facts.
Facts>emotions.
If you can't handle that then maybe you should go vote for follower under my newest poll thread

[Nefastus]

so if i want to kill my toddler i can just up and off him? that is socially acceptable? thats right? just take a pick axe to the back of his head? kind of like the surgical tools used in partial birth abortions? your argument has no basis in reality. my father cant decide he wants to kill me, i cant decide i want to kill my kid. eating more fruit is much different then being dead

Nefastus: so i can kill people and eat them for breakfast?

No, since the child is already born. Abortion should be 100% legal until certain period in the 1st Trimester, after which it should be illegal since the child has already developed all the organs, making it actual human being.

[nate4449]

Oh right, let's give it up for adoption! Yeah! Let's have a fucking kid go through foster homes and such for 18 years just to end up on the street with psychological issues.

Have you ever met someone who has been given up for adoption? I have! Most of them have serious psychological issues associated with either time in the social services or with not knowing who's their parent and why did they decide to abandon them.

Yes, I do know a few.

You know what? It's better to have a chance at life than none at all.

[HorrorHotel]

I support womens rights so pro-choice. Pro-life sounds stupid since everyone cares for others.

I think the real question here is, "Should we ever trust a woman with her own body?" The answer, of course, is NO.

We have enough population units to continue prospering, any more will hinder us.

[Nefastus]

lets think with the right head before having sex eh? so you using the argument that you think the child will end up messed up? what about you? would you rather be dead right now or have just left the orphanage

Again, are you conscious and capable of making such a decision when you are in the womb? YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU EXIST.

Do you fail to realize that such question makes no sense? If you technically don't even exist since you are not conscious and self-aware, you can't make such decision.

Did you ask yourself that question too even BEFORE your parents had sex? Even BEFORE you were even a possibility? Well, that's exactly the same as while you are still unborn.

[Dirty l3um]

Nefastus: I'm glad you have enough sense not to support partial birth abortions. I have to say your view on the 1st trimester thing is fairly respectable. now here is where i disagree

so brainwaves and a heartbeat dont make this child a living human?

ooooh and okay, so if you arent aware of your conciousness you arent living? ive been knocked out a few times in my life and i wasnt aware that iw as alive, so if i were to be killed at that point in time it would be okay? since i was unconscious?

Behhemoth: i LOL'd about your comment, what facts? look above, your killing people everyday...

going to bed, i have class in 7 hours, maybe if this thread isnt locked we can discuss a bit more tomarrow

[Desperado[1G]]

you are not conscious and self-aware, you can't make such decision.

All the more reason they should be protected.

[Septus]

;1721676']CLEARLY the correct alternative is to kill them at childhood.

I think this is the discrepancy. You assume a zygote/fetus is alive.

It would be nice to have a scientific definition (for example, once the baby is capable of living on its own, it is "alive"), but the religious won't have it. They'd rather push the envelope; even if we proved the zygote was not alive, they would say it had the potential for life.

By that definition, all contraceptives should be illegal as well. You're denying life to these cells that would otherwise produce human babies.

[Nefastus]

I think this is the discrepancy. You assume a zygote/fetus is alive.

It would be nice to have a scientific definition (for example, once the baby is capable of living on its own, it is "alive"), but the religious won't have it. They'd rather push the envelope; even if we proved the zygote was not alive, they would say it had the potential for life.

By that definition, all contraceptives should be illegal as well. You're denying life to these cells that would otherwise produce human babies.

That's so true. Let's even take it further, ejaculation period should be made illegal. Unless you are having sex to have a baby, YOU CANNOT EJACULATE SINCE YOU ARE MURDERING MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF POTENTIAL LIFE FORMS. Heh.

[heroshade]

Explain the difference between abortion and abstinance? They don't live either way, and stem cell research can be helpful. So fuck life, I'm pro-choice.

EDIT:I voted pro-life, damnit!

[Behhemoth]

Nefastus: I'm glad you have enough sense not to support partial birth abortions. I have to say your view on the 1st trimester thing is fairly respectable. now here is where i disagree

so brainwaves and a heartbeat dont make this child a living human?

ooooh and okay, so if you arent aware of your conciousness you arent living? ive been knocked out a few times in my life and i wasnt aware that iw as alive, so if i were to be killed at that point in time it would be okay? since i was unconscious?

Behhemoth: i LOL'd about your comment, what facts? look above, your killing people everyday...

going to bed, i have class in 7 hours, maybe if this thread isnt locked we can discuss a bit more tomarrow

The fact that you are a dirty bum and should have no say in anything.
Seriously though, pro-lifers are always saying "but wouldnt YOU want to live?!?!!"
When pro-choicers say "you didnt even know you had the choice, so why does it matter what you feel now, you didnt feel that way then"

[hostileEffect]

Women have the choice to keep their legs close and men out of their pants. If a women gets preg, then the child has the right to life.

[Behhemoth]

That's so true. Let's even take it further, ejaculation period should be made illegal. Unless you are having sex to have a baby, YOU CANNOT EJACULATE SINCE YOU ARE MURDERING MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF POTENTIAL LIFE FORMS. Heh.

It would also be illegal for women to have periods :lmao:

[Viluin]

It would also be illegal for women to have periods :lmao:

Oshit, all women would go to prison aged ~13, and we'd be forced to use these caged women to breed.

Hey, that's an amazing idea!

[Desperado[1G]]

The fact that this is even seen as an important issue churns my stomach. You people are sitting here splitting hairs about when it is and is not acceptable to "terminate" a developing child.

I say 80 years of life > 9 months of inconvenience. I think a fetus is alive, and has a right to live. It's a human being, and if you kill it, you've committed an agressive act. And like every other agressive crime, it should be against the law.

[Sabrok]

;1721751']The fact that this is even seen as an important issue churns my stomach. You people are sitting here splitting hairs about when it is and is not acceptable to "terminate" a developing child.

I say 80 years of life > 9 months of inconvenience. I think a fetus is alive, and has a right to live. It's a human being, and if you kill it, you've committed an agressive act. And like every other agressive crime, it should be against the law.

And of course for these developing cells that can't feel pain or awareness, yes, we must stop this atrocity, but the fully formed animals that can feel pain, very real pain, other primate species that are forced to starvation by our over harvesting of rain forests, the mass harvesting/abuse and brutal slayings of millions of cows, pigs, and many other species to fuel the US and Europe's obesity epidemics while half the world struggles to find subsistence, well I bet you just turn the other cheek with the rest of your 'pro-life' comrads...

[Salaman]

Quite the veritable forest of strawmen have sprung up in this thread last time I checked.

1st of all gametes (eggs and sperm cells) don't qualify as a separate human life because they only have a half set of chromosomes and those were derived entirely from the parent they originated from and thus gametes can be considered part of the parent's body.

On the other hand, a zygote/embryo/fetus is a separate human life because it has a complete set of genes that are a mix of the parents' but is still distinctly different.

It's alive because it exhibits the characteristics of a living organism. It grows, has a metabolism, maintains a degree of homeostasis, and has the eventual capacity to evolve and reproduce.

It's human because...well just go through a process of elimination. If it isn't human, then what species are you going to call this living thing? A gerbil, like someone else suggested?

Human lives are generally protected by the law, but this protection doesn't appear to extend to humans undergoing a certain stage of development, and thus the legality of abortion could be considered a form of discrimination on the basis of age and the fact that the victims of this prejudice have no means of protest.

Whether you think that's wrong or not is your personal belief and I'm not going to try and convince a forum full of misanthropic nerds that every human life has value (even the ones that might grow up with a psychological disorder because they didn't have an oh so perfect environment,which doesn't make their life a total waste by any means :rolleyes: )

[Behhemoth]

Quite the veritable forest of strawmen have sprung up in this thread last time I checked.

1st of all gametes (eggs and sperm cells) don't qualify as a separate human life because they only have a half set of chromosomes and those were derived entirely from the parent they originated from and thus gametes can be considered part of the parent's body.

On the other hand, a zygote/embryo/fetus is a separate human life because it has a complete set of genes that are a mix of the parents' but is still distinctly different.

It's alive because it exhibits the characteristics of a living organism. It grows, has a metabolism, maintains a degree of homeostasis, and has the eventual capacity to evolve and reproduce.

It's human because...well just go through a process of elimination. If it isn't human, then what species are you going to call this living thing? A gerbil, like someone else suggested?

Human lives are generally protected by the law, but this protection doesn't appear to extend to humans undergoing a certain stage of development, and thus the legality of abortion could be considered a form of discrimination on the basis of age and the fact that the victims of this prejudice have no means of protest.

Whether you think that's wrong or not is your personal belief and I'm not going to try and convince a forum full of misanthropic nerds that every human life has value (even the ones that might grow up with a psychological disorder because they didn't have an oh so perfect environment,which doesn't make their life a total waste by any means :rolleyes: )

one of the few pro-lifers i have seen here with some sense

[Nefastus]

;1721751']The fact that this is even seen as an important issue churns my stomach. You people are sitting here splitting hairs about when it is and is not acceptable to "terminate" a developing child.

I say 80 years of life > 9 months of inconvenience. I think a fetus is alive, and has a right to live. It's a human being, and if you kill it, you've committed an agressive act. And like every other agressive crime, it should be against the law.

When you become a woman who has been a victim of a rape and has no means of supporting and providing a proper life to a child, then say that. When you are 12 years old girl, again, a victim of rape, and you neither have resources nor experience to bring up a living human being, then come back and say that.

Period, when you are unable of raising a child in a proper environment, with caring parents and a safe home (Place where there's no domestic abuse, BOTH parents have paying jobs, and nobody is blowing crack into your newborn face) then tell me you are anti-abortion.

I'd rather have a child not be born than be born into the worst circumstances ever. You don't choose what circumstances you are born it, if it's drug abusing, alcoholic and family abusing parents or a homeless woman with AIDS, who essentially passes down her disease to a child which will have no home and will end up either dead or in the social services. Yes, I'd rather save that child from the misery of given life circumstances, which can be worst that being dead and never having to experience the pain associated with it all.

[Ezion]

I'm pro-life, based on these simple deductions.

It is illegal to kill a human.
It is impossible to determine with absolute certainty when the concieved baby becomes a human.
Therefore, by getting an abortion, you may be killing a human.

Obviously this logic doesn't hold up when you have no qualms about killing people (e.g. the baby would be better off dead).

[Jathen]

double post

[Jathen]

When you become a woman who has been a victim of a rape and has no means of supporting and providing a proper life to a child, then say that. When you are 12 years old girl, again, a victim of rape, and you neither have resources nor experience to bring up a living human being, then come back and say that.

Period, when you are unable of raising a child in a proper environment, with caring parents and a safe home (Place where there's no domestic abuse, BOTH parents have paying jobs, and nobody is blowing crack into your newborn face) then tell me you are anti-abortion.

I'd rather have a child not be born than be born into the worst circumstances ever. You don't choose what circumstances you are born it, if it's drug abusing, alcoholic and family abusing parents or a homeless woman with AIDS, who essentially passes down her disease to a child which will have no home and will end up either dead or in the social services. Yes, I'd rather save that child from the misery of given life circumstances, which can be worst that being dead and never having to experience the pain associated with it all.


Yes please decided for that child how thier life will be. :bang::bang::bang: You are trying so hard to justify murder.


I am obviously anti-murder.

[Sabrok]

anti-murder

Again, I doubt it.

Laugh.

[Nefastus]

Yes please decided for that child how thier life will be. You are trying so hard to justify murder.


I am obviously anti-murder.


It's not a decision, it's a fact. Unless the crack smoking, family beating, and trailer based family does make a decision to change their lives so the child can have a normal development until it turns 18 and actually has a say on their own.

How am I justifying anything? Personally, I'm making sure I won't have any kids until I'm emotionally and financially ready. The girl, which I'd want to spent the rest of my life with, would have to be in the same position. Until then, I have condoms and she has birth control. The only thing I'm justifying is having a right to choose. Not every pregnancy is by choice and in the right for the child circumstances.

You are most certainly correct though, parents do choose what kind of life their kids have, and in worst situations, if they want that kind of horrible life for the kid.

[Rahavin]

Pro choice...as long as the baby is in the first trimester...I think 5 months in is about where I start saying "no" to getting the coat hangar out.

[Septus]

;1721751']The fact that this is even seen as an important issue churns my stomach. You people are sitting here splitting hairs about when it is and is not acceptable to "terminate" a developing child.

I say 80 years of life > 9 months of inconvenience. I think a fetus is alive, and has a right to live. It's a human being, and if you kill it, you've committed an agressive act. And like every other agressive crime, it should be against the law.

Your definition of "developing child" is completely arbitrary. You say it's when the sperm meets the egg.

I could come up with an equally arbitrary definition: when sperm attempts to enter the woman's body. From that point on, any interference is willful murder of a potential life.

You might say that doesn't count because sperm entering the body doesn't always yield a baby... Well I hate to tell you, but conception does not always yield birth (miscarriage anyone?) either.

So obviously, via your own bullshit definitions, condoms, birth control, vasectomies, etc, are all murder.

[TubeSock]

Like there isn't already enough people plaguing the earth. Forced choice all the way.

[KonohaFlash]

Yes, I'd rather save that child from the misery of given life circumstances, which can be worst that being dead and never having to experience the pain associated with it all.

just fucking kill everybody who YOU think are living miserably while you're at it. you know, to save em from this cruel world and stuff



Your definition of "developing child" is completely arbitrary. You say it's when the sperm meets the egg.

I could come up with an equally arbitrary definition: when sperm attempts to enter the woman's body. From that point on, any interference is willful murder of a potential life.

You might say that doesn't count because sperm entering the body doesn't always yield a baby... Well I hate to tell you, but conception does not always yield birth (miscarriage anyone?) either.

So obviously, via your own bullshit definitions, condoms, birth control, vasectomies, etc, are all murder.

sperm = not human
egg cell = not human
embryo = human

[Ludo]

I'm Pro-Baby killing.

[Septus]

sperm = not human
egg cell = not human
embryo = human

Completely arbitrary, yet again. What about an embryo makes it human? It's just a couple of cells at that point.

It's no more human than a sperm on its way to meet the egg. If all goes well, a baby will develop.

Edit: I find it ironic that these same people I see going "omg no aborrttioon" are the ones bitching about poor people having kids in the first place. Wtfmate?

[Mo0rbid]

It's up to the invividual to make that descision, not any one else

[palo god]

Personally I would never want my girlfriend to get an abortion but I don’t think it should be my choice to whither some other person should have an abortion or not.

So I’m pro choice.

[Pcheez]

Pro- Choix mes mecs. Toujours.

[Nefastus]

just fucking kill everybody who YOU think are living miserably while you're at it. you know, to save em from this cruel world and stuff




sperm = not human
egg cell = not human
embryo = human


Why ME? I'm not the one getting an abortion. If it was UP TO ME and I was pregnant (Which I believe cannot happen since I'm a man) and wasn't ready to raise that child, I'd get an abortion. The fact is that it's not up to me but up to woman to decide. Also, again, where did I say about anyone LIVING a MISERABLE life? A fetus is not living any human life since it's not a born human child. Since you are blind, I said, anything past certain portion of 1st Trimester should be illegal to abort.

[Horseman]

I'm pro life, but only for myself. I dont want to decide this for other people. Decide yourself. leave other people alone.

[Ankh]

I'm Pro-Baby killing.

This is the only correct forumfall answer.

[Kraven]

pro abortion

[emasame]

people who have kids and can not support them shouldnt have a choice, their unformed monstrosity should be popped on sight. we dont need more fucked up losers cause their parents couldnt fuck correctly.

[Largion]

Pro choice. Well that was a easy choice. :D

[Temet nosce]

The poll should've had a pro abortion option, because it sounds like a lot of us think that. (brutal solutions work so well)

[Tharkon Fargor]

Pro-Life.

It's not so much that I belive an infant is sacred as I belive people should take responsibility for their actions. As I belive all healthcare should be free I wouldn't want someone not taking any responsibility and then coming and doing expensive abortions each time and basicly still killing life.

If the infant threatens the life of the mother, if the mother has been raped or forced into sex or if there are some special reasons to why she can't have the baby then yeah.
Ellse no abortion...or at least no abortion after like the time when you can do an abortion by just scrapping inside the vagina with a tool.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Pro-lifers argue with emotions, and pro-choicers argue with facts.
Facts>emotions.
If you can't handle that then maybe you should go vote for follower under my newest poll thread

Well I argue with a mix of both and I'd say that's human.
People who argue with emotions lack brains and people who only argue with facts lack heart and soul.


[Prepares to be buttraped by forumfall]

[Temet nosce]

Well I argue with a mix of both and I'd say that's human.
People who argue with emotions lack brains and people who only argue with facts lack heart and soul.


[Prepares to be buttraped by forumfall]

Shit, your warning yourself almost makes me feel guilty about this but still...

So you're saying that how you "feel" about something changes whether it's true? That the veracity of a fact or theory changes according to your own whims? It'd be nice but yeah, no not happening.

[Tharkon Fargor]

I belive that much of how we humans operate is based on what we "feel". For example feeling that a child is suffering is something one should never disregard as a "stupid emotion" and "weakness". There have been times when it's been tried and it's not gone terribly well.

If we deep inside feels that it is truly wrong to destroy a life to be then that is what we should base our society upon. Not only rational thought but also emotional is what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. The truth here is at least not for me that the life is sacred or that it is a human.

It is for me simply wrong to kill something that I consider a creature that in turn will become human for nothing more than it being an "inconvenience". What do we base our feeling of that it is wrong to kill a fully grown intelligent and physicaly fit human being? Just because the same could happen to us? Well, the same could've happend to us when we were infants aswell - if you want to stretch that theory.

[Killuminati]

Lol @ the moral crusaders who want to tell women what to do with their body.

[Salo]

Hey, I have a secret for you.

Chickens have brainwaves too! Yet you don't mind making KFC and scrambled eggs with them, do you?

*smiles* good point.

[Temet nosce]

I belive that much of how we humans operate is based on what we "feel". For example feeling that a child is suffering is something one should never disregard as a "stupid emotion" and "weakness". There have been times when it's been tried and it's not gone terribly well.

So wait, your argument against abortion is that a child suffers? Yeah, not happening unless we're talking about abortions late in the pregnancy (if I recall right, something like 20 weeks minimum).

If we deep inside feels that it is truly wrong to destroy a life to be then that is what we should base our society upon. Not only rational thought but also emotional is what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. The truth here is at least not for me that the life is sacred or that it is a human.

Yeah... I'm sure you're really looking forward to what overpopulation is going to do (and is already doing) but hey! At least we'll know that we felt good about the choices that led there! (Also what's this about animals not having emotions? It's a popular thing to say but I've never seen any research backing it up, on the other hand I have read some papers claiming the opposite, although admittedly this isn't really germane to the conversation).

It is for me simply wrong to kill something that I consider a creature that in turn will become human for nothing more than it being an "inconvenience". What do we base our feeling of that it is wrong to kill a fully grown intelligent and physicaly fit human being? Just because the same could happen to us? Well, the same could've happend to us when we were infants aswell - if you want to stretch that theory.

You consider a creature. Great. So this justifies doing whatever feels good regardless of the consequences?

Also, that last one seems to be ingrained instinct. There was an article (might actually have been a book, I can't recall) about it I really liked. I think it was called something like The Instinct of Altruism (I remember it was called something about altruism anyways). Basically, we're predisposed towards altruism based on a set of criteria such as similarity to our bloodline, distance from home, and the like.

Further, while instinct (such as that) has definitely had a large and important influence in our history, we've now reached a point where we should at least be able to rationally and objectively decide things without relying on mere instinct.

[Tharkon Fargor]

So wait, your argument against abortion is that a child suffers? Yeah, not happening unless we're talking about abortions late in the pregnancy (if I recall right, something like 20 weeks minimum).
No. My point was simply: Why not let the child suffer? We're not only discussing abortions here from what I recall but also emotions as such. Thus my statement about our emotions and the suffering of a child. It is by your purely "rational" thought unnecessary to help the