The Socialist Utopia, why it dosent work (yet)

[Toilet]

The reasons for it are quite simple:

1. All nations must become socialistic for it to work, while capitalism simple requires two countries who can exchange wares.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.

3. All coperations must be owned by the government, which is a little hard to accomplish.

4. Western culture must be abandoned, something like middle eastern culture would suit, where instead of getting money for a favor, you get a favor for a favor.

5. All organized religion must be abandoned.


However if those problems are solved, there are a few more problems it will face:

1. How to maintain democracy under socialism.

The optimal would be where each nation votes their leader out of people, not political parties, and that person would then, with others, vote the continental leader based, where the amounts of votes would be based on population, the continental leaders would elect a world leader from the continental leaders, and then appoint some ministers to help him make some laws.

Each time a law was made it would be send to vote first between the effected continental leaders and then between the effected national leaders and finally the public would decide wheter they want that law or not.

Basically making a system where everybody is equal with making it too centralized.

2. How to best meet the product needs of the people:

This could be done by having a group of scientists examine products the governmentally owned coperations give, testing it etc etc.

If for example its shampoo, and its made for old women, then they test ALL the shampoos on the market, if they desired effect is there, and if its large enough and with very small addiotional negative sideeffects, then its approved.

It would also require a branch that accepts requests from the people, like if they can get 10k signatures they get x priority and if they get 50k signatures they get y priority.

---------------------------

The best part about socialism is that no matter what you do, you get the same pay.

That means you can do the job you want to.

Note: I dont want any "Socialism dosent work" comments, since the entire point of this thread is to discuss how socialism could be applied to modern society, in extreme form or light form.

[Lindorn]

Sounds to me like you are a socialist who wants a thread full of self stroking. If I believe socialism is inherently broken, how can you tell me I'm not to express my opinion and just assume that there is a way for it to work?

[shnedit]

Really exciting discussion.

[alfaroverall]

Socialism != communism. You seem to be confusing the two into some sort of peculiar amalgam.

Also, you, just like Villa, can no longer be taken seriously. You have such a disproportionate amount of troll posts that when you do actually make a serious post (and it seems as if this might be one) that one will ever agree with you.

[Morthor]

Its against human nature, simple as. Now shoo!

[Toilet]

Sounds to me like you are a socialist who wants a thread full of self stroking. If I believe socialism is inherently broken, how can you tell me I'm not to express my opinion and just assume that there is a way for it to work?

Then explain why it dosent work, and explain why capitalism is so much better for anybody but the individual who gets the lucky roll.

[Toilet]

Its against human nature, simple as. Now shoo!

No its not.

Its against western culture, but it would work fine with middle eastern culture.

[hardboiled]

These little town blues are melting away
I'll make a brand new start of it in ole New York
If I can make it there I'll make it anywhere
It's up to you New York New Yooooork.
New York New Yooork I want to wake up in a city that never sleeps...

[Spinewire]

Really exciting discussion.
qft


Seriously bing back the hottest babe thread and lol at the bans of people posting 12 year olds in bras.

This new forumfall is getting a bit super serial for me.

[shnedit]

Then explain why it dosent work, and explain why capitalism is so much better for anybody but the individual who gets the lucky roll.

Capitalism is shit. We know that. Its life. It wont change. Deal with it.

qft


Seriously bing back the hottest babe thread and lol at the bans of people posting 12 year olds in bras.

This new forumfall is getting a bit super serial for me.

I know its penis. All I can do is troll hopelessly.

[Toilet]

Socialism != communism. You seem to be confusing the two into some sort of peculiar amalgam.

How did i confuse the two?

I simply took the best parts from each, combined them with democracy and modern society and voila.

[Morthor]

No its not.

Its against western culture, but it would work fine with middle eastern culture.

Yeah, there's a problem there; we're not all from the middle fucking east. Our culture is not something that you can change overnight.

[hardboiled]

Come fly with me, lets fly, lets fly away
If you can use some exotic booze there's a bar in far Bombay
Come on and fly with my, lets fly, lets fly away

[Toilet]

Yeah, there's a problem there; we're not all from the middle fucking east. Our culture is not something that you can change overnight.


True, but that dosent mean its against human nature.

[Heartnet~]

explain why capitalism is so much better for anybody but the individual who gets the lucky roll.
It promotes growth and evolution.
It creates an environment where money can be reused and wealth can automatically multiply. Basically, one person will win and one will lose, but both will be better off than before.

[Entreri]

You just described communism. Not the same thing as the socialist countries of Europe which have worked quite well for them. The reason communism doesn't work is because people aren't perfect. It requires everyone to be perfect. If everyone was perfect then any type of government would work, even a dictatorship.

[Rimayven]

What is a socialist utopia like?

[Justinian]

The reasons for it are quite simple:

1. All nations must become socialistic for it to work, while capitalism simple requires two countries who can exchange wares.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.

3. All coperations must be owned by the government, which is a little hard to accomplish.

4. Western culture must be abandoned, something like middle eastern culture would suit, where instead of getting money for a favor, you get a favor for a favor.

5. All organized religion must be abandoned.


However if those problems are solved, there are a few more problems it will face:

1. How to maintain democracy under socialism.

The optimal would be where each nation votes their leader out of people, not political parties, and that person would then, with others, vote the continental leader based, where the amounts of votes would be based on population, the continental leaders would elect a world leader from the continental leaders, and then appoint some ministers to help him make some laws.

Each time a law was made it would be send to vote first between the effected continental leaders and then between the effected national leaders and finally the public would decide wheter they want that law or not.

Basically making a system where everybody is equal with making it too centralized.

2. How to best meet the product needs of the people:

This could be done by having a group of scientists examine products the governmentally owned coperations give, testing it etc etc.

If for example its shampoo, and its made for old women, then they test ALL the shampoos on the market, if they desired effect is there, and if its large enough and with very small addiotional negative sideeffects, then its approved.

It would also require a branch that accepts requests from the people, like if they can get 10k signatures they get x priority and if they get 50k signatures they get y priority.

---------------------------

The best part about socialism is that no matter what you do, you get the same pay.

That means you can do the job you want to.

Note: I dont want any "Socialism dosent work" comments, since the entire point of this thread is to discuss how socialism could be applied to modern society, in extreme form or light form.

lol, political science majors.

[Toilet]

You just described communism. Not the same thing as the socialist countries of Europe which have worked quite well for them. The reason communism doesn't work is because people aren't perfect. It requires everyone to be perfect. If everyone was perfect then any type of government would work, even a dictatorship.

No i did not describe communism.

Communism is the shift towards socialism, and requires dictatorship in order to fulfil all the neccasary changes, like culture and coperation ownership.

Also no country in the world is socialistic, no one.

[kingpin]

current system is fine if the state would provide a minimum for people to live decently.

give EVERYONE a house and the ability to grow up and educate two kids and that's it. everything else is a luxury and you should put your ass down and work to get it.

this way the capable will get all their luxurious goodies and the rest can't whine for antisocial policy.

you get what you deserve but AFTER everyone gets a minimum and an equal opportunity to become successful.

of course by luxury i mean things that we take for granted now, like a pc and a car. rest can use public transportation etc. the minimum should only involve decent residence and basic needs like that for a medium family of four people.

[ZeaL-]

The drive towards a socialist society should be done through the worker class. If the workers control the means of production than it becomes a bargaining tool for some real change in the country. I'm hoping there are some worker revolutions that try and mimic Yugoslavias model for worker owned factories. Until then capitalists will keep prevailing as they sell nikees for $250 dollars even though they payed someone 16 cents to make it.

[alfaroverall]

No i did not describe communism.

Communism is the shift towards socialism, and requires dictatorship in order to fulfil all the neccasary changes, like culture and coperation ownership.

Also no country in the world is socialistic, no one.
Socialism is a broad spectrum term referring to a huge cluster of different ideologies. Communism is a specific one, whose only real center is the eventual creation of a classless society. The methods used to reach that vary depending on who you look at. Notably, as I recall, Marx offered no such methods.

[tallefred]

Socialism is a wonderful idea that will never work due to the fact that human beings are selfish. Just let it die.

[Whisky Bob]

No i did not describe communism.

Communism is the shift towards socialism, and requires dictatorship in order to fulfil all the neccasary changes, like culture and coperation ownership.

Also no country in the world is socialistic, no one.

Dude you make me laugh kinda. Go back to Orwells 1984. Socialism will NEVER WORK. Fascism will NEVER WORK. Nationalism will NEVER WORK. Utopia WILL NEVER WORK. Capitalism - DOESNT WORK.

Simple. Every government type same as economy tries to lead to Utopy. That is only possible in small societies. To have small societies we have to let Anarcho-Syndicates win (but we all know those small Societies will die in one big tribal war anyway)

Apparently the most socialistic country is Norway and most capitalistic - China. Figure that out.

Communism is government type that can work only in heaven.

[Nakir]

Socialism would work with robots, but humans and socialism are incompatible.

[Gloomrender]

lol, political science majors.

:lmao: Probably right...95% of of anyone in college is socialist, so this is what you get out of a political science major for the most part.

[Yobaj]

You guys don't know what you are talking about.

Communism is the classless society.
Socialism is the path there.

The best way to describe it is to read about Historical Materialism theory by Marx. Where the history of society is described with stairs. and in each step there is a ruling class and a working class. Owners and slaves, landowners and serfdom, factory owners and workers (present day for marx). His idea was that next step would be Communism, without any of these classes, and between the factory owners and workers step and communism step, would be socialism, the path to communism.

So Socialdemocracy is in one way socialism, and so is Marxism-Leninism (what many believe is communism).

But of course, not many know this and the political debate has ended up with Socialdemocracy being Socialism (aka reformism) and Communism being Revolutionary.

[Gloomrender]

You guys don't know what you are talking about.

Communism is the classless society.
Socialism is the path there.

The best way to describe it is to read about Historical Materialism theory by Marx. Where the history of society is described with stairs. and in each step there is a ruling class and a working class. Owners and slaves, landowners and serfdom, factory owners and workers (present day for marx). His idea was that next step would be Communism, without any of these classes, and between the factory owners and workers step and communism step, would be socialism, the path to communism.

So Socialdemocracy is in one way socialism, and so is Marxism-Leninism (what many believe is communism).

But of course, not many know this and the political debate has ended up with Socialdemocracy being Socialism (aka reformism) and Communism being Revolutionary.

Inc! We got another poli sci student! Take cover!

[Justinian]

Inc! We got another poli sci student! Take cover!

rgr that

[Scully]

What the hell is happening over in America, I hear nothing on the news. Is this just some temporary internet thing? And don't tell me "The evul government controls the news!" Not in Norway anyway...

[Nefastus]

The reasons for it are quite simple:

1. All nations must become socialistic for it to work, while capitalism simple requires two countries who can exchange wares.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.

3. All coperations must be owned by the government, which is a little hard to accomplish.

4. Western culture must be abandoned, something like middle eastern culture would suit, where instead of getting money for a favor, you get a favor for a favor.

5. All organized religion must be abandoned.


However if those problems are solved, there are a few more problems it will face:

1. How to maintain democracy under socialism.

The optimal would be where each nation votes their leader out of people, not political parties, and that person would then, with others, vote the continental leader based, where the amounts of votes would be based on population, the continental leaders would elect a world leader from the continental leaders, and then appoint some ministers to help him make some laws.

Each time a law was made it would be send to vote first between the effected continental leaders and then between the effected national leaders and finally the public would decide wheter they want that law or not.

Basically making a system where everybody is equal with making it too centralized.

2. How to best meet the product needs of the people:

This could be done by having a group of scientists examine products the governmentally owned coperations give, testing it etc etc.

If for example its shampoo, and its made for old women, then they test ALL the shampoos on the market, if they desired effect is there, and if its large enough and with very small addiotional negative sideeffects, then its approved.

It would also require a branch that accepts requests from the people, like if they can get 10k signatures they get x priority and if they get 50k signatures they get y priority.

---------------------------

The best part about socialism is that no matter what you do, you get the same pay.

That means you can do the job you want to.

Note: I dont want any "Socialism dosent work" comments, since the entire point of this thread is to discuss how socialism could be applied to modern society, in extreme form or light form.

But... Socialism doesn't work. It cannot be applied to the society for a simple reason being human nature. An individual or a group in charge of the rest of population will always bring out the human nature of greed and power. Socialism/Communism simply DOES NOT work.

You can try to discuss how it could be applied, BUT IT CAN'T. A human being is a human being.

[Yobaj]

Inc! We got another poli sci student! Take cover!
I'm sorry, but I'm not studying political science. I'm just not retarded.

[nate4449]

Why would I waste my time learning/training to be a brain surgeon if I could sign up to be a street sweeper for the exact same pay and much less effort?

Utopia requires utopians, sadly. Emotions/individualism ftl.

[Nefastus]

Why would I waste my time learning/training to be a brain surgeon if I could sign up to be a street sweeper for the exact same pay and much less effort?

Utopia requires utopians, sadly. Emotions/individualism ftl.

Haha, that's another reason socialism/eutopia won't work. If I study, for example, quantum physics for decades, and become an expert on it, why in the fuck should I earn as much as someone who never completed a damn high school?

Same goes for a typical employment. Why do you think you hire someone with the best skills? BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER AT THE PARTICULAR JOB THAN SOMEONE ELSE! Fucking common sense. If someone is BETTER at something, they should be able to take advantage of that.

[Yobaj]

Why would I waste my time learning/training to be a brain surgeon if I could sign up to be a street sweeper for the exact same pay and much less effort?

Utopia requires utopians, sadly. Emotions/individualism ftl.
Well, would you feel satisfied with yourself if you were a street sweeper? I mean, sure, I would work as a street sweeper until I had gotten myself good education, but eventually I would go crazy if I was still a street sweeper, it gives you nothing back, you don't develop as a person. I think most of us if we were economically indepedent would try to make the most of ourselves, get educated in stuff we think is fun to work with. There's a reason why certain jobs are looked down upon, because they suck. ( I know the low education=low salary is a part also)

[nate4449]

Well, would you feel satisfied with yourself if you were a street sweeper? I mean, sure, I would work as a street sweeper until I had gotten myself good education, but eventually I would go crazy if I was still a street sweeper, it gives you nothing back, you don't develop as a person. I think most of us if we were economically indepedent would try to make the most of ourselves, get educated in stuff we think is fun to work with. There's a reason why certain jobs are looked down upon, because they suck. ( I know the low education=low salary is a part also)

Why wouldn't I feel satisfied with myself? I recieve all of the same pay and benefits as any other citizen, and I do a job that needs to be done. Every society need good people doing trivial jobs.

But the point is, why would you spend years in college working REALLY HARD to earn your degree, possibly failing and having to retake classes/tests, just to end up at the same social status/pay level as the guy who dropped out of school to raise goats?

The reasons? Curiosity, emotional motivation, or the desire to excell. Unfortunately, these things conflict with the other aspects of a classless Utopia. You cannot bring yourself to work hard and achieve something without inevitably looking down upon the less-learned members of society.

[Gloomrender]

I'm sorry, but I'm not studying political science. I'm just not retarded.

Well you are a student brainwashed into supporting socialism...

If you support communism/socialism, then incidentally, you are retarded.

[Iloplex]

But... Socialism doesn't work. It cannot be applied to the society for a simple reason being human nature. An individual or a group in charge of the rest of population will always bring out the human nature of greed and power. Socialism/Communism simply DOES NOT work.

You can try to discuss how it could be applied, BUT IT CAN'T. A human being is a human being.

this

also the brain surgeon/street sweeper argument, i mean SERIOUSLY socialism cant work cuz people r themselves and not robots, as long as their is individualism them utopia=fail

[Ungraylessness]

Well, would you feel satisfied with yourself if you were a street sweeper? I mean, sure, I would work as a street sweeper until I had gotten myself good education, but eventually I would go crazy if I was still a street sweeper, it gives you nothing back, you don't develop as a person. I think most of us if we were economically indepedent would try to make the most of ourselves, get educated in stuff we think is fun to work with. There's a reason why certain jobs are looked down upon, because they suck. ( I know the low education=low salary is a part also)

That would depend on the hours. If I'm a street sweeper who can potentially do brain surgery, but I had an interest in studying art I would stay a street sweeper and use the free hours I wouldn't have being a brain surgeon to go my own way. In a socialist state I would try to be as independent as possible.

[hostileEffect]

Forums of government other than a constitutional republic can indeed work well, but it depends on the situation and the moral character of the people. Democracy works well in relatively small groups of people but its probably going to fail when it comes to larger groups of people. Some ideas from socialism work well in MMORPGs, Ex. a guild bank that people donate to and take things out of, but its going to fail in most other areas. Communism, well, some things like massive interstates are better for the government to run, but other than that, it fails and I don't think I can think of anything constructive for it.
Even a dictatorship works if you have someone of sound moral character in power but finding someone that is going to fit that position would be next to impossible.

IMHO, the best form for a large group of people would be more local government and less central government. The local people for each city should be able to educate themselves with detailed classes and get a registration to vote for their own local law. Cities and Counties set their own local laws, speed limits - within reason, as defined by the state -, etc. I think New Zealand(sp) is doing something like this, a wikipedia kind of thing.

I don't think it matters what kind of government you have, if the moral character of the people and the leaders is kiss-ass, then its probably going to fail. Even in our current time, the system has failed because of the people and the leaders they "elected", if our vote is even counted anymore. The illegal wiretaps, twisting of laws, loopholes, and the incredible list of lies, are just some of the failures. The people running corporations are also just as bad, but I'm probably not going to go into that.

Simply put, put enough power or potential power in one place and its probably going to be abused, its also risky. Another reason why a one world government is bad, we need local government - many counties - and a balance of power, so that no single group controls everything.

Technology is advancing and if we aren't careful, big brother won't stop with simply knowing where/when/what, you are doing, ever did, ever owned, hope to be, etc, but will become forced control of the people.

Deus Ex is a superb game and came out before 9/11, you should play it sometime.

I went way off topic...

[Ungraylessness]

I don't think it matters what kind of government you have, if the moral character of the people and the leaders is kiss-ass, then its probably going to fail. Even in our current time, the system has failed because of the people and the leaders they "elected", if our vote is even counted anymore. The illegal wiretaps, twisting of laws, loopholes, and the incredible list of lies, are just some of the failures. The people running corporations are also just as bad, but I'm probably not going to go into that.

Simply put, put enough power or potential power in one place and its probably going to be abused, its also risky. Another reason why a one world government is bad, we need local government - many counties - and a balance of power, so that no single group controls everything.

Most people are open minded and logical enough to recognise a good idea when they see it. So as long as someone with good moral fiber and sound principals recognises the problems with government he can convince others to go against the abused system and take down the corrupted politicians through revolution. Unless people are afraid of there government, but even that could be changed through persuasion.

[Yobaj]

Well you are a student brainwashed into supporting socialism...

If you support communism/socialism, then incidentally, you are retarded.
Yes I am a Socialdemocrat, and here I sit with 24mb broadband to my computer with a 23" screen, 2 floor house, with two 50" flatscreens hanging on our living room walls, fat closet and I can get to my modern and good school in central stockholm for 200$/year with public transportation, I have free healtcare and dental care.
I suppose I have to be retarded supporting the ideology that has given me the oppurtinity to enjoy this, my dad isn't rich.

[Spinewire]

Yes I am a Socialdemocrat, and here I sit with 24mb broadband to my computer with a 23" screen, 2 floor house, with two 50" flatscreens hanging on our living room walls, fat closet and I can get to my modern and good school in central stockholm for 200$/year with public transportation, I have free healtcare and dental care.
I suppose I have to be retarded supporting the ideology that has given me the oppurtinity to enjoy this, my dad isn't rich.
i bet you are sad inside tho sould like you are buying stuff to fill up the void in your life.

[Gloomrender]

Yes I am a Socialdemocrat, and here I sit with 24mb broadband to my computer with a 23" screen, 2 floor house, with two 50" flatscreens hanging on our living room walls, fat closet and I can get to my modern and good school in central stockholm for 200$/year with public transportation, I have free healtcare and dental care.
I suppose I have to be retarded supporting the ideology that has given me the oppurtinity to enjoy this, my dad isn't rich.

A bubble soon to burst.

[Whisky Bob]

I am supporter of Free-market monarchy.

Cause society needs free market to develop and beat-stick above their heads to stand in line. Simple.

[Yobaj]

A bubble soon to burst.
In that case it would be because your bubble burst first.

[Gloomrender]

In that case it would be because your bubble burst first.

Not necessarily.

[Skree]

The reasons for it are quite simple:

1. All nations must become socialistic for it to work, while capitalism simple requires two countries who can exchange wares.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.

3. All coperations must be owned by the government, which is a little hard to accomplish.

4. Western culture must be abandoned, something like middle eastern culture would suit, where instead of getting money for a favor, you get a favor for a favor.

5. All organized religion must be abandoned.


However if those problems are solved, there are a few more problems it will face:

1. How to maintain democracy under socialism.

The optimal would be where each nation votes their leader out of people, not political parties, and that person would then, with others, vote the continental leader based, where the amounts of votes would be based on population, the continental leaders would elect a world leader from the continental leaders, and then appoint some ministers to help him make some laws.

Each time a law was made it would be send to vote first between the effected continental leaders and then between the effected national leaders and finally the public would decide wheter they want that law or not.

Basically making a system where everybody is equal with making it too centralized.

2. How to best meet the product needs of the people:

This could be done by having a group of scientists examine products the governmentally owned coperations give, testing it etc etc.

If for example its shampoo, and its made for old women, then they test ALL the shampoos on the market, if they desired effect is there, and if its large enough and with very small addiotional negative sideeffects, then its approved.

It would also require a branch that accepts requests from the people, like if they can get 10k signatures they get x priority and if they get 50k signatures they get y priority.

---------------------------

The best part about socialism is that no matter what you do, you get the same pay.

That means you can do the job you want to.

Note: I dont want any "Socialism dosent work" comments, since the entire point of this thread is to discuss how socialism could be applied to modern society, in extreme form or light form.How could you have a discussion about how socialism could work with someone who doesn't understand what socialism is to start with ?

Without going point by point 5 reasons/asumptions are all incorrect, to 1 degree or another.

Seriously read more stuff written by Marx, Engles, Lenin and Trotsky and not by people writting thier opinions about what they wrote. That would give you a grasp of Communism and, equally important, the nature of revolutions.

Skree

[zantar]

If I get paid the same no matter what work I do or how I do it... why would I put any hard work into anything I do. Nations are built on hard work, Socialism in most forms is not viable.

[LordTenacious]

Inc! We got another poli sci student! Take cover!
Batton down the hatches, boys! This is gonna get ugly!

[[LoD] EE]

You should take those posting powers of yours OP and channel them into wrist slashing. Remember, Up the road dont cross it.

Skree

[Nefastus]

Yes I am a Socialdemocrat, and here I sit with 24mb broadband to my computer with a 23" screen, 2 floor house, with two 50" flatscreens hanging on our living room walls, fat closet and I can get to my modern and good school in central stockholm for 200$/year with public transportation, I have free healtcare and dental care.
I suppose I have to be retarded supporting the ideology that has given me the oppurtinity to enjoy this, my dad isn't rich.

Here you explained how you are NOT a socialist. Sure, you do enjoy and take advantage of Sweden's socialist aspects of the system, such as free healthcare, but that's not socialism. Don't you also enjoy that 23" screen, 2 floor house, and those 2 50" flatscreens? Now, does everyone have that in Sweden? I really doubt that. The reason you have those perks is because you possess certain skills which someone else does not have, putting you above another citizen with less skills, meaning, you earn more money. If you were living in true socialism, everyone single person around you would have access to the exacly same commodities as you, making your hard work earned skills and knowledge which you used to earn the money for those gagets useless.

How's that oil going on for you too? Isn't your healthcare also free partially to the subsidised oil?

See, the difference between me and you is that I prefer to actually handle MY OWN MONEY, which I HAVE WORKED FOR, rather than giving MY EARNED MONEY to the GOVERNMENT.

What if, for example, my teeth are fine? Why would I want to waste so much of my income on socialized dental care when I get nothing out of it? Why do I have to pay for someone's dental work simply because they either are too fucking lazy or stupid to have certain labor skills to be able to earn money and pay for their own dental expenses? Not my fault idiot hasn't discovered the concept of "education" and "toothbrush".

[Matriel]

You forgot changing human nature. Which is why it never works.

[Delthayre]

My bachelor's degree was in Lingusitics and Political Science, I thought that two horrible mistakes might sum up equal to one bad choice. I am fascinated by parts of both disciplines, but neither was an especially practical choice for study. I should have chosen economics. I was never a socialist whilst studying as an undergraduate, I left that behind in high school, but indeed slowly become a timid libertarian whilst my studies progressed. The curious thing about political science is that there isn't very much politics directly discussed in it. It does attract an disconcerting abundance of socialists, but they aren't the majority, or rather they have not been in my experience.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.

I think that this condition is an exmplar both of the impracticality of implementing socialism and the faults of the ideology. Even in a socialist system, there will be a privileged class, generally those who administer the state, who enjoys certain services, goods and other sundry luxuries that the proletariat cannot procure. Further, if we cannot exalt anyone as superior, materially or otherwise, then how will anything be improved or accomplished? The promise of profit and the accolades won by achievement encourage exceptional individuals to exploit their abilities, which, when succesful, leads to the various innovations that have allowed many westerners the luxuries that they now enjoy. If we cannot consider anyone as better and might expect to be met with contempt or even legal sanction if he should try to win some higher status, then why would anyone bother to achieve anything?

Your entire scheme is dictatorial. You would demand that all people and nations become as you plan for them to be and surrender all that they have that you do not will them to possess. There is a notion in some schools of economics called, "spontaneous order." I think that you would do well to study that notion. A stark lesson in it is recounted within this podcast (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2008/07/munger_on_the_p.html). (It is relatively long, but I think it germane)

[LordTenacious]

I still can't believe people are saying that the Middle East could easily become a socialist paradise. I'm not even sure what to say to that.

[KoMM]

The reasons for it are quite simple:


You have issues.

[Martacus]

OP, you are an idiot. Someone will always want more than their neighbor. It's the way it has been, and how it forever shall be.

[Marbo]

Okay guys, it would be real awesome if I could attach lego wings to myself and fly. It would be cool because:

1. I could fly.

2. I could literally pick up chicks.

3. I wouldn't need to buy plane tickets.

There would still be some problems however such as:

1. Flying might be hard.

2. Girls might not like me.

3. I am not as fast as a plane.


Please you are NOT allowed to tell me how it won't work. This is not what the discussion is about.



....... yeah.

[Martacus]

^
Win

[Gloomrender]

You forgot changing human nature. Which is why it never works.

Back to make 30k posts?

[Blodpls]

From my cold dead hands you deranged welfare glorifying potheads.

[zoolio]

Then explain why it dosent work, and explain why capitalism is so much better for anybody but the individual who gets the lucky roll.

Lucky roll... or, you know.. able to provide the best service, or best product, or find a better way to make something everyone wants, or everyone needs. Socialism fails simply because all employees and workers aren't created equal.

[Nefastus]

From my cold dead hands you deranged welfare glorifying potheads.

What about those capitalistic potheads? Those who know they have to advance and work in order to be able to acquire the best marijuana crops? What about them?

[Vanno]

Its against human nature, simple as. Now shoo!

Wrong, try again.

[zantar]

I still can't believe people are saying that the Middle East could easily become a socialist paradise. I'm not even sure what to say to that.

Well as long as massive amounts of oil profits are distributed to the citizens in certain middle eastern countries that could be considered a socialist aspect to improve their lives... but obviously it is not something that will last.:ninja:

[Khantrah]

As long as humans are forced to work to survive, any degree of state mandated socialism will never be just. The resource of human labor, more than any other resource, is what I object to being redistributed to the masses. It means that the value of part of my life is being taken from me and reallocated to God knows what. Laissez faire capitalism is the most just system for determining who does the work which must be done.

Once human labor ceases to be a vital resource to sustain society (robots do it instead) we can talk.

[Dhig]

Well you are a student brainwashed into supporting socialism...

If you support communism/socialism, then incidentally, you are retarded.

Note that capitalism is a path to socialism according to Marx scientific studies of socialism.
I dont think you are aware of what socialism means.

None of the socialdemocratic countries strive to reach either capitalism or communism. They use the best part from both of them.
This means that eventually America has to give up some capitalism and make place for some socialism.

It has already happened and will happen again.

[Nefastus]

Note that capitalism is a path to socialism according to Marx scientific studies of socialism.
I dont think you are aware of what socialism means.

None of the socialdemocratic countries strive to reach either capitalism or communism. They use the best part from both of them.
This means that eventually America has to give up some capitalism and make place for some socialism.

It has already happened and will happen again.

Just because Marx says something doesn't mean it's true. According to Marx, communism is the perfect magical solution to the society yet.... have you seen functional communism?

Yea, let's listen to a guy who's ideology is clearly getting places.

[Gloomrender]

"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."

Ronald Reagen.

[HawksBrigade]

1. How to maintain democracy under socialism.

The optimal....yadie yadie yadie.......
Each time a law was made it would be send to vote first between the effected continental leaders and then between the effected national leaders and finally the public would decide wheter they want that law or not.

Basically making a system where everybody is equal with making it too centralized.


That might take a while, well ages actually.
People like to argue about things...

[Nefastus]

That might take a while, well ages actually.
People like to argue about things...

Or won't happen period. I'll name you the very first of many reasons why it won't ever happen in our divided human society.

Ready?

Religion.

[LordTenacious]

Oh no. Oh God, why did you have to say the "R" word?

[Blodpls]

What about those capitalistic potheads? Those who know they have to advance and work in order to be able to acquire the best marijuana crops? What about them?

No gripes from me about those, used to be one myself.

[HawksBrigade]

I agree Nefastus. But I was taking "5. All organized religion must be abandoned." into consideration as well.
I learned one thing.. You can't argue about religion, you simply can't.
If someone really, with every fiber of his/her being, believes something you disagree with, you can't argue with them.

[Dhig]

Just because Marx says something doesn't mean it's true. According to Marx, communism is the perfect magical solution to the society yet.... have you seen functional communism?

Yea, let's listen to a guy who's ideology is clearly getting places.

It was a scientific study that others used to try and create utopia.
Ideal communism has never taken place, ever, and it never will.

It is the same for Capitalism. It can never work. America isnt a ideal capitalist country. There is much socialism in America and more will come.

So when you say Marx ideaology you think it was meant for communism to be as in former Soviet. You are very wrong.
Ideal capitalism and ideal communism will never be a reality. People will never allow it to happen.

Edit: And btw, the OP is wrong with the title. Socialism can never be utopia as Marx and Engels idea was about. Socialism is not communism.

[Blodpls]

It was a scientific study that others used to try and create utopia.
Ideal communism has never taken place, ever, and it never will.

It is the same for Capitalism. It can never work. America isnt a ideal capitalist country. There is much socialism in America and more will come.

So when you say Marx ideaology you think it was meant for communism to be as in former Soviet. You are very wrong.
Ideal capitalism and ideal communism will never be a reality. People will never allow it to happen.

There are countries today with a nearly pure capitalistic system. Anywhere with no welfare system, or public schooling / healthcare is pretty close. These are not places I would want to live though. I think capitalism with a very small socialist safety net works best.

[Ferox]

there is a reason why there has never been a true democracy, or a true communist state/group in world history.


its human ideals that can never be translated to reality, so long as greed, hatred, and delusion exist.

[Dhig]

there is a reason why there has never been a true democracy, or a true communist state/group in world history.


its human ideals that can never be translated to reality, so long as greed, hatred, and delusion exist.

But there is true democracies in history and present. Democracy is how a country is ruled. Not the ideaology.

There can never be a true capitalism or a true communism though :)

[Foxodi]

When I envision socialism I defiantly do not view everyone as having the same pay... Sure pay will be moderated so there wont be extreme poors or extreme rich.. but the same pay for every job? This would do major damage to the economy

Why does socialism have to be a democracy? Democracy sucks (we've already had its prime, let it rest for a few hundred years before we go back to it...)

I don't see the need for religion to be abandonded (in fact I think they would flourish in a socialist environment)

Why do all nations need to become socialist? True making one nation socialist in a capitalist dominanted world would be difficult but still possible

Government doesn't need to own all corporations.. it just sets up its own MEGA corporations that takes up a huge portion of the markets... I'd let other corporations exist (a shadow of their former selves) in order to maintain freedom and choice (or at least the illusion of it)

Western culture only needs to be abandonded because its PLAGUED with capitalism...

The elite having the same worth as a thief? You need to define what the worth of a human is... I wouldn't treat all lives entirely equal like that... theives are thieves, successful career men are successful... (I base human worth on their ethics/morals mostly so yeah... it depends what your definition is; I think a socialist state would go with my definition in which case you need to give a more specific individual vs individual example)

Though I like the way how you would deal with products etc... I'd do a similar system (though a list of signatures sounds abit gay and inefficienct)

[Blodpls]

I don't think it's even possible.

If I was to redistribute all money and goods in the UK evenly amongst the population I can guarantee that in 1 years time it would be almost back to the way it is today.

Even if you banned money altogether and used potatoes instead a class of potato oligarchs would appear in no time.

Even communist country's have a large gap between the richest and poorest.

[palo god]

Socialism and communism don't work and never will.

[Tharkon Fargor]

hehe...There's a bunch of socialist utopias there really.
What you are talking about works. Or well...it worked, in China.

1. All nations must become socialistic for it to work, while capitalism simple requires two countries who can exchange wares.
No it doesn't. You just need a big enough country or two countries with enough wares.

2. The elite must surrender their position at the top and accept they are as much worth as a homeless person, or a thief.
True. They do not produce any service nor any goods so most of them aren't much more worth. Even alot of their accounting and stock sales is done by people below them.
But this did work in China. And then that elite was replaced by the party elite...You didn't write the elite couldn't be replaced. Hihihohoahahha

3. All coperations must be owned by the government, which is a little hard to accomplish. Yeah they basicly were all owned, controlled and fucking mandated by the government and it failed. It wasn't even the local government that controlled them through directions from the upper. The upper one actually tried to control it all. Good luck with that, 50 million people dead of starvation.
Though I must say that after that they kinda got it rolling and it worked all up t'll the late 80's when they just switched to authoritharian capitalism with some social policies.

4. Western culture must be abandoned, something like middle eastern culture would suit, where instead of getting money for a favor, you get a favor for a favor
Yeah they had that in China to. The cultural revolution. Everything started looking the same. Red and boring as fuck. And it cost some thousands of people their lives. GG

5. All organized religion must be abandoned.
They tried that in China to. Just to hard to control peoples thoughts without sufficient technology.


They also tried the democracy thing. But Mao just found it to sweet to have all the powah by himself.


It would also require a branch that accepts requests from the people, like if they can get 10k signatures they get x priority and if they get 50k signatures they get y priority.
Now that's interesting. They tried that in the USSR. Yeah they actually did.
It worked for some months (it was tried in an isolated small city in the middle of the countr). People could order what they wanted as long as enough people wanted it. They also had free access to food, goods overall and only needed to work for as much as they wanted. The problem was that they started fighting among each other who wanted what and they also started working less because the other person started working less.

The classic "if he can, I can."
After a year or so the experiment was abandoned.


There's far better ways to increase the standard of living for the majority while decreasing it for the small minority without to much state control and "utopianism".
We still aren't ready as human beings to accept a world where everything is endless.
Where everything is owned by the state and where that state never attempts to become undemocratic.

Western culture was also a exchange of wares in the beginning. Even today we exchange wares with each other and even favours without money being involved.
You cannot forcefully change an entire culture into your liking. You must convince people that the thing that they are already doing even today can be made into somethign much larger and bigger in magnitude.

Also im beginning to think you're a troll :)

[Ferox]

But there is true democracies in history and present. Democracy is how a country is ruled. Not the ideaology.

There can never be a true capitalism or a true communism though :)

what country in the world today allows a vote on every decision and control of the government by the people?


if your talking America.. America is a republic.. like the Romans...


even the ancient Greeks were not a real democracy.


democracy is a big ideology.. why do you think our presidents and politicians continue to call us a democracy even though we aren't one.

[Spineless_DoO]

Then explain why it dosent work, and explain why capitalism is so much better for anybody but the individual who gets the lucky roll.

Because in a capitalist system people can work for what they want and need in life. Humans have been fighting off forms of slavory our entire existance. Why the fuck would we give it all up to the few? So freeloaders can get an easy ride? Fuck socialistic ideals and fuck anyone who holds them. Stay the fuck out of my country. You are the enemy of every free man, woman and child on this planet.

[palo god]

Because in a capitalist system people can work for what they want and need in life. Humans have been fighting off forms of slavory our entire existance. Why the fuck would we give it all up to the few? So freeloaders can get an easy ride? Fuck socialistic ideals and fuck anyone who holds them. Stay the fuck out of my country. You are the enemy of every free man, woman and child on this planet.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Justinian]

When I envision socialism I defiantly do not view everyone as having the same pay... Sure pay will be moderated so there wont be extreme poors or extreme rich.. but the same pay for every job? This would do major damage to the economy

Nixon tried this. It's called price-fixing. A wage is a price, just like any other price. Price fixing does not work. Please see: www.mises.org


Why does socialism have to be a democracy? Democracy sucks (we've already had its prime, let it rest for a few hundred years before we go back to it...)

Everyone has to have a fair shake... except for when it comes to choosing leaders? I'm no strong proponent of democracy, but I don't understand exactly what you're getting at here. What's the principle?

Why do all nations need to become socialist? True making one nation socialist in a capitalist dominanted world would be difficult but still possible

See: Ludwig von Mises - Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis. I strongly suggest you read von Mises before saying anything else, if only to get a better idea of just exactly what it is you're talking about.

Government doesn't need to own all corporations.. it just sets up its own MEGA corporations that takes up a huge portion of the markets... I'd let other corporations exist (a shadow of their former selves) in order to maintain freedom and choice (or at least the illusion of it)

This is cartelization/syndication, not socialism or capitalism.

Western culture only needs to be abandonded because its PLAGUED with capitalism...

The elite having the same worth as a thief? You need to define what the worth of a human is... I wouldn't treat all lives entirely equal like that... theives are thieves, successful career men are successful... (I base human worth on their ethics/morals mostly so yeah... it depends what your definition is; I think a socialist state would go with my definition in which case you need to give a more specific individual vs individual example)


I agree here with the thing in bold. But how do you do it? How can you possibly accurately define it without resorting to totalitarianism and Hitler-esque fascism? What about freedom, and the whole reason this country (the USA) was founded?

[Justinian]

Because in a capitalist system people can work for what they want and need in life. Humans have been fighting off forms of slavory our entire existance. Why the fuck would we give it all up to the few? So freeloaders can get an easy ride? Fuck socialistic ideals and fuck anyone who holds them. Stay the fuck out of my country. You are the enemy of every free man, woman and child on this planet.

We should also add that capitalism cured hunger, which was a huge fucking accomplishment in the history of the world. Socialism, where it has been established, has caused as much hunger as any of the worst despots in history. The capitalist countries feed the socialist ones.

The next time you think, "I'm hungry." and then you go to a supermarket literally overflowing with food, make sure the next thing you do is clam the fuck up about how great socialism could be.

[Kietharr]

Seriously, just give up and admit that you're one poor excuse of a troll. Even Villa is less obvious than you.

[Justinian]

Seriously, just give up and admit that you're one poor excuse of a troll. Even Villa is less obvious than you.

I dunno man. I've met some Euros who are truly and sincerely convinced. It doesn't take much for an idea like socialism to hop the pond to the States and convince a bunch of zombies.

[Ben060682]

What is a socialist utopia like?

Russia in the 1980's. :eek:

Skodas, Vodka and uniforms for every man woman and child. Skin head men with no necks, women with muscles and mustaches and state paid summer holidays in far flung exotic destinations, like the Siberian Gulag.

[Dhig]

Socialism and communism don't work and never will.

Maybe so. America is a socialism country, not a capitalism country.
To even understand what I am talking about you have to understand what socialism is.
I dont think you have a clue and that you never read about socialism because you are afraid to be found by the idea of it.
If you know what socialism is, explain it please.

[palo god]

Maybe so. America is a socialism country, not a capitalism country.
To even understand what I am talking about you have to understand what socialism is.
I dont think you have a clue and that you never read about socialism because you are afraid to be found by the idea of it.
If you know what socialism is, explain it please.

America is not a socialist country you idiot, we may be getting closer to socialism but we aren’t there yet, socialism is when the state practices the redistribution of wealth on a large scale and participates in class warfare among other things.

[Dhig]

America is not a socialist country you idiot, we may be getting closer to socialism but we aren’t there yet, socialism is when the state practices the redistribution of wealth on a large scale and participates in class warfare among other things.

America isnt a true capitalist country and they are not a communist country. So they are a socialist country in favor of capitalism.
I didnt expect you to understand this.

[Justinian]

America is not a socialist country you idiot, we may be getting closer to socialism but we aren’t there yet, socialism is when the state practices the redistribution of wealth on a large scale and participates in class warfare among other things.

haha, and America doesn't have this? didn't you feel silly as you were typing that?

[slugy]

what does Socialist mean?

[palo god]

haha, and America doesn't have this? didn't you feel silly as you were typing that?

No, because we arent there yet, but like I said we are getting close.

[palo god]

America isnt a true capitalist country and they are not a communist country. So they are a socialist country in favor of capitalism.
I didnt expect you to understand this.

No we arent.

[Justinian]

No, because we arent there yet, but like I said we are getting close.

the point is that we have been there since the New Deal. you described perfectly the situation that we are in. that's why I thought it was ironic that you said that we aren't there yet.

have you been reading anything lately?

[LordTenacious]

Well, it got scaled back after the New Deal but it came back with a vengeance in Johnson's (not so) Great Society.

Edit: WW2, not after the New Deal.

[palo god]

the point is that we have been there since the New Deal. you described perfectly the situation that we are in. that's why I thought it was ironic that you said that we aren't there yet.

have you been reading anything lately?

Its not practiced on a large enough scale to be considered socialism, but again like I said we are close.

[Dhig]

No we arent.

So if America isnt true capitalism and far away from being true communism, what is it then?
Some new ism you came up with?
Please explain instead of just denying.

[palo god]

So if America isnt true capitalism and far away from being true communism, what is it then?
Some new ism you came up with?
Please explain instead of just denying.

Its a capitalist country, look up what Socialism means before you use it.

[Justinian]

Well, it got scaled back after the New Deal but it came back with a vengeance in Johnson's (not so) Great Society.

Edit: WW2, not after the New Deal.

It doesn't matter how far it was scaled back. The precedent was set and so from then on, it is the case that it is a socialist government/economy. The High Priests of Harvard, Yale, and Company can manage everything for us; I, for one, have complete faith in Those Who Interpret Knowledge.

[Justinian]

Its a capitalist country, look up what Socialism means before you use it.

obvious trolling, but good for some lirling if the other guy keeps responding.

[Dhig]

Its a capitalist country, look up what Socialism means before you use it.

I know what socialism is. It is not communism as many thinks.
Socialism is the everything between capitalism and communism.
As you have said yourself, America isnt a true capitalism. Therefor America is a socialism country favoring capitalism.
So no matter what you tell ppl, America is in the socialism area.

Some countries are socialism that favors communism. But there are no true communism countries in the world. Neither are there any true capitalism countries.

[palo god]

I know what socialism is. It is not communism as many thinks.
Socialism is the everything between capitalism and communism.
As you have said yourself, America isnt a true capitalism. Therefor America is a socialism country favoring capitalism.
So no matter what you tell ppl, America is in the socialism area.

Some countries are socialism that favors communism. But there are no true communism countries in the world. Neither are there any true capitalism countries.

No its not lol, look up the word.

[Dhig]

No its not lol, look up the word.

Instead of trolling, explain it to me.
As you despite what I say, understand the meaning of socialism more then I do.

[Toilet]

Lucky roll... or, you know.. able to provide the best service, or best product, or find a better way to make something everyone wants, or everyone needs. Socialism fails simply because all employees and workers aren't created equal.

Lucky rolls was meant as in birth place, ie where you were birth and into which family, in genes, you cant do much if you get a genetic disorder, and in the interaction with other people, you might get your right arm cut off at the age of 10 by some sicko, yet it isnt your fault.

[palo god]

Instead of trolling, explain it to me.
As you despite what I say, understand the meaning of socialism more then I do.

well since you don't know how to use a dictionary.

Socialism: political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Justinian]

the lol factor is increasing exponentially

[Dhig]

well since you don't know how to use a dictionary.

Socialism: political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

As the dictionary tells you one thing I know for a fact that there are more to it then that. Socialism isnt one thing.
You go ahead and think America isnt in the socialism area. It is either black or white for you.

[palo god]

As the dictionary tells you one thing I know for a fact that there are more to it then that. Socialism isnt one thing.
You go ahead and think America isnt in the socialism area. It is either black or white for you.

No you don't know anything, I thought I explained this already.

[Yobaj]

Here you explained how you are NOT a socialist. Sure, you do enjoy and take advantage of Sweden's socialist aspects of the system, such as free healthcare, but that's not socialism. Don't you also enjoy that 23" screen, 2 floor house, and those 2 50" flatscreens? Now, does everyone have that in Sweden? I really doubt that. The reason you have those perks is because you possess certain skills which someone else does not have, putting you above another citizen with less skills, meaning, you earn more money. If you were living in true socialism, everyone single person around you would have access to the exacly same commodities as you, making your hard work earned skills and knowledge which you used to earn the money for those gagets useless.
My dad is the one working in the family, my brother and I are currently studying, and my mom is on her long-term sick insurance. My dad has 2 jobs, and neither of them are considered well payed. Sure, not every Swede can afford all the stuff we have, but my dad was smart enough to get a good loan while the interests were low, we rebuilt our house and now it's worth alot more. We are not rich. And I'm a socialdemocrat not marxist-leninist, I'm not saying everyone has to have the same stuff as everyone else, just that the government should be doing stuff to work towards equality, so that noone is left behind.


How's that oil going on for you too? Isn't your healthcare also free partially to the subsidised oil?
What are you talking about? We have high fuel taxation here in Sweden, and my electricity is coming from waterpower, hydroelectric power stations in northern Sweden. Nuclear energy and water energy stand for most electricity in Sweden.

See, the difference between me and you is that I prefer to actually handle MY OWN MONEY, which I HAVE WORKED FOR, rather than giving MY EARNED MONEY to the GOVERNMENT.

Well, if we go back to the energy matter. I prefer electricity that doesn't come from coal or oil. And I know that I can't make a difference by myself. But hey, luckily I live in Sweden, where the population understod that if they go togheter they can make it happen, so now we have Vattenfall, Swedens largest electricitycompany who gets the power from waterpower, and the earnings go back to the state, and several nuclear powerplants. I don't mind this...

What if, for example, my teeth are fine? Why would I want to waste so much of my income on socialized dental care when I get nothing out of it? Why do I have to pay for someone's dental work simply because they either are too fucking lazy or stupid to have certain labor skills to be able to earn money and pay for their own dental expenses? Not my fault idiot hasn't discovered the concept of "education" and "toothbrush".
Well, are you older than 20? Because you only get free dental care until you are 20, but if the care you need costs more than 500$ it is subsidized by the state.

[palo god]

This is socialism (http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs13/300W/f/2007/042/e/d/Socialism_by_miniamericanflags.jpg).

[Tdog]

"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

America is moving towards Socialism but it is not there yet and it will cause the fail of America. Kind of like the fall of Rome.

"Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principles of the people's representatives "

This is what America started as and should be if the "people" cared enough.


Socialism will never work with humans because of a very simple fact. No matter how smart or strong you are, there is someone that is smarter and stronger then you in the world as well as someone that is stupider and weaker then you. That is just the fact of life.

Someone is always better they you and someone is always less then you. We as humans will never allow everyone to be treated equally because we as humans are not equal. We are animals, just like Lions, Tigers and bears. Some bears live a full life and mate every year, some die as cubs, some live a full life and never mate. Same with any kind of animal on this planet. Humans are not all made equal, humans should treat all other humans as equals but we know that does not and will never happen.

Socialism and Communist are amazing theory's on paper but they will not work when put into action.

Democracy would and can work if the "people" stand together and force their elected officals to be held accountable but we all know that is not happening.

[Yobaj]

This is socialism (http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs13/300W/f/2007/042/e/d/Socialism_by_miniamericanflags.jpg).

This is Capitalism (http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6093/newcapitalistpyramidnt1.jpg)

[Dhig]

No you don't know anything, I thought I explained this already.

The difference between you and me is that you have to google socialism to know what it is. I dont have to.
Just google some more and read up on it before replying again. And be sure to think it through first.

I will help you a bit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Here is another dictionary that might help
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

now go on and google.

[palo god]

The difference between you and me is that you have to google socialism to know what it is. I dont have to.
Just google some more and read up on it before replying again. And be sure to think it through first.

I will help you a bit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Here is another dictionary that might help
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

now go on and google.

I know what socialism is, you don't, and that's why you like it.

[Tdog]

Capitalism - Allows a person that works hard, puts forth the effort to be rewarded for their effort.

Socialism - Everyone is equal, no matter how hard you work or how much effort you put in, everyone gets the same rewards.

Its really simple.
If you work hard and put in the effort you should be able to choose your own reward, if you dont work hard and dont put in the effort you should get no reward.

[palo god]

This is Capitalism (http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6093/newcapitalistpyramidnt1.jpg)

No, I think you're getting it mixed up with a policed military state.

[palo god]

Capitalism - Allows a person that works hard, puts forth the effort to be rewarded for their effort.

Socialism - Everyone is equal, no matter how hard you work or how much effort you put in, everyone gets the same rewards.

Its really simple.
If you work hard and put in the effort you should be able to choose your own reward, if you dont work hard and dont put in the effort you should get no reward.

QFT

[Justinian]

This is Capitalism (http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6093/newcapitalistpyramidnt1.jpg)

That is not capitalism by a long shot. This is fascism, and the US Government has become the agent through which it is enabled.

[KoMM]

I d love to live in Sweden...

[Toilet]

Capitalism - Allows a person that works hard, puts forth the effort to be rewarded for their effort.

Socialism - Everyone is equal, no matter how hard you work or how much effort you put in, everyone gets the same rewards.

Its really simple.
If you work hard and put in the effort you should be able to choose your own reward, if you dont work hard and dont put in the effort you should get no reward.

Lol fail, everyone gets the same hourly wage, so one who works 5 hours gets less than one who works 10 hours.

[Vertigo Vain]

I always though they had socialism in Star Trek and wondered how this show was allowed to be aired on US TV...

[palo god]

Lol fail, everyone gets the same hourly wage, so one who works 5 hours gets less than one who works 10 hours.

Same hourly wage? when my dad lived in the soviet union he didn't get an hourly wage, he made crates and would get payed a certain amount for each crate and if he made crates faster then the other workers he would get payed less money per crate and if he made more crates then the other workers they wouldn't count the extra ones to his pay.

[Tdog]

Lol fail, everyone gets the same hourly wage, so one who works 5 hours gets less than one who works 10 hours.

Who makes the same hourly wage?
The guy at McDonalds should not make as much as someone that works as a Doctor.

Also If I work for 5 hours as a heart surgern and you work 10 hours at McDonalds, we did not put in the same effort for that day my friend. The heart surgen put alot more effort into his 5 hours then the guy at McDonalds did into his 10 hours. The Surgern should make more money and live a better life then the guy at McDonalds for the simple reason that the Doctor put in years into his schooling where as the guy at McDonalds did not.

Its all about making a better life for yourself. If we allowed everyone to take the easy way out and still live a good life, then who in their right mind would put in the effort to become a heart surgern or any other career that required personal effort?

Leave your fantasy world and join us in Real world.

How do I fail?

[Justinian]

Lol fail, everyone gets the same hourly wage, so one who works 5 hours gets less than one who works 10 hours.

price fixing does not work for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that in a price-fixing economy, prices can never be known. misallocation of capital becomes rife and resources are squandered utterly. see: USSR

[Dhig]

QFT

I dont think you know a social democracy works.
It is not, work hard and get a cookie.

The real value of socialism is that nobody is worth more then anyone else.
Even if you are poor you will be taken care of. You wont have the big 42 inch tv or the biggest car. The point is that if you get sick and cant work you will be taken care of. If you dont have somewhere to live, you will get one.

Even so, those that work hard will have the 42 inch tv and the nice looking car.

[Tdog]

I dont think you know a social democracy works.
It is not, work hard and get a cookie.

The real value of socialism is that nobody is worth more then anyone else.
Even if you are poor you will be taken care of. You wont have the big 42 inch tv or the biggest car. The point is that if you get sick and cant work you will be taken care of. If you dont have somewhere to live, you will get one.

Even so, those that work hard will have the 42 inch tv and the nice looking car.

There is no such thing as a Social Democracy. You cant have the best of both worlds because the poor will always demand more.

What you guys need to understand is that no matter what, there is nothing FAIR in the world. THE WORLD IS UNFAIR, deal with it, live with it, over come it.

Grow up, not everything is fair, life is unfair, it will always be unfair. The people that accept that life is unfair will be the ones that are successful in life.

[Justinian]

I dont think you know a social democracy works.
It is not, work hard and get a cookie.

The real value of socialism is that nobody is worth more then anyone else.
Even if you are poor you will be taken care of. You wont have the big 42 inch tv or the biggest car. The point is that if you get sick and cant work you will be taken care of. If you dont have somewhere to live, you will get one.

Even so, those that work hard will have the 42 inch tv and the nice looking car.

You cannot have both at the same time. You must choose: freedom or the State?

The real value of capitalism is that nobody is worth more than anyone else.

I went ahead and fixed that for you. Capitalism puts everyone on equal footing because it recognizes that we are all individuals with our own talents and goals. I am a natural-born thinker, others are natural-born carpenters. We are not equal, but we are worth the same.

[Dhig]

There is no such thing as a Social Democracy. You cant have the best of both worlds because the poor will always demand more.

What you guys need to understand is that no matter what, there is nothing FAIR in the world. THE WORLD IS UNFAIR, deal with it, live with it, over come it.

Grow up, not everything is fair, life is unfair, it will always be unfair. The people that accept that life is unfair will be the ones that are successful in life.

True that life isnt fair. We dont have to treat humans like garbage because of that.
If they have security they will demand more, it is true. But if you remove their rights as poor they will trust more in anarchy.
I believe it is better to give people self respect by giving them a place to live and take care of them.
That is why I trust more in social democracy then communism or capitalism.

[wowsa0]

Read my new sig from Bertrand Russell for my favourite summary of capitalism.

[Toilet]

Capitalism puts everyone on equal footing because it recognizes that we are all individuals with our own talents and goals. I am a natural-born thinker, others are natural-born carpenters. We are not equal, but we are worth the same.

If everyone is worth the same, then tell me WHY THEY ARE NOT PAID THE SAME?!!

[Justinian]

True that life isnt fair. We dont have to treat humans like garbage because of that.
If they have security they will demand more, it is true. But if you remove their rights as poor they will trust more in anarchy.
I believe it is better to give people self respect by giving them a place to live and take care of them.
That is why I trust more in social democracy then communism or capitalism.

You trust blindly. You ignore economic history and the facts.

Please see: www.mises.org and start reading Henry Hazlitt, Murray Rothbard, and Faustino Ballve.

[palo god]

If everyone is worth the same, then tell me WHY THEY ARE NOT PAID THE SAME?!!

Because a doctor shouldn't have the same pay as someone working at a burger king.

[Toilet]

Because a doctor shouldn't have the same pay as someone working at a burger king.

They are worth the same, so stop contradicting yourself with your capitalism and equality shit.

Equality only exists under socialism.

[Tdog]

True that life isnt fair. We dont have to treat humans like garbage because of that.
If they have security they will demand more, it is true. But if you remove their rights as poor they will trust more in anarchy.
I believe it is better to give people self respect by giving them a place to live and take care of them.
That is why I trust more in social democracy then communism or capitalism.

Why should we give them anything? Should they not earn their self respect just like everyone else? What makes them special?

If we gave everyone a place to live and took care of them, who in their right mind would work hard? Knowing that you will always have a place to live and always be taken care of.

Nobody is removing their right to go out and better themselfs.

Capitalism allows everyone to start out equal. The only thing that sets people apart is the personal effort each person is willing to put forth.

If two people are born in the same city, on the same day. Both have an equal chance to be successful in life.

Person A decide's they want to be a police officer.
Person B decide's they dont want to work hard and takes a job at McDonalds.

Your telling me that Person A and Person B should both be given a place to live and equal pay? Really? You don't see the problem here.

The main problem is that if you give everyone a place to live and money to take care of them, they will lose any motivation to better themself.

[Yobaj]

I d love to live in Sweden...

You other guys, PWND, hah.
KoMM, I feel ya, Greece is a EU member state it should be pretty easy for you if you can get a job:)

[wowsa0]

Because a doctor shouldn't have the same pay as someone working at a burger king.

No you're right he probably shouldn't. True Communism does not work because it is undemocratic. But capitalism is not much better, it is not as good as half of forumfall make it out to be. The guy in burger king will earn less, but he does not have the opportunity to earn as much as the doctor. The cleaner in the hospital is just as vital to the running of it as the doctor, but because the supply of people able to clean is so much greater than the supply of people able to treat the sick, their wage is much less, and they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as the doctor and will have a worse off life as a result.

Capitalism is based on the exploitation of the poor by the rich, that is almost a definition of what capitalism is. Again read my sig, Bertrand Russell sums up my point far better than I ever could.

[Tdog]

If everyone is worth the same, then tell me WHY THEY ARE NOT PAID THE SAME?!!

umm supply and demand?

[palo god]

They are worth the same, so stop contradicting yourself with your capitalism and equality shit.

Equality only exists under socialism.

When did I contradict myself? the only equal thing under socialism is you get to all be poor.

[wowsa0]

Capitalism allows everyone to start out equal.

Wrong. Capitalism perpetuates both wealth and poverty. Especially if you don't have a state education system.

Also, even if everyone did start equal, the more intelligent people would be the ones with the better jobs, and as I said in a previous thread, it isn't really fair to punish the unintelligent, just as it is unfair to punish the working class. People can't help their intelligence, and an unintelligent person would be physically unable to be a doctor through no fault of their own. Again: Capitalism relies on exploitation.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating communism because I don't think that it could ever work, but I'm just critical of people who go on about capitalism as if it is the perfect system. If anything we need some sort of compromise where the poor are provided with basic neccessities of life for free by the state e.g. healthcare, education, welfare, homes.

[palo god]

Wrong. Capitalism perpetuates both wealth and poverty. Especially if you don't have a state education system.

Also, even if everyone did start equal, the more intelligent people would be the ones with the better jobs, and as I said in a previous thread, it isn't really fair to punish the unintelligent, just as it is unfair to punish the working class. People can't help their intelligence, and an unintelligent person would be physically unable to be a doctor through no fault of their own. Again: Capitalism relies on exploitation.

So you're saying the people that arent intelligent should get those jobs? do you read what you type?

[Dhig]

You trust blindly. You ignore economic history and the facts.

Please see: www.mises.org and start reading Henry Hazlitt, Murray Rothbard, and Faustino Ballve.

I didnt say I trust blindly. I said I trust more.
Social democracy is, whatever you state, a better way then pure capitalism.
However, capitalism with social structures in it is not capitalism. It is Socialism in favor of a free market (capitalism).
You fail to see that is what modern social democracy is about. We have a free market but controlled by the state (just like in America). The only thing that is different is that we collect more taxes to be able to control the big differences between the poor and the rich to the needs of everyone.

I dont think I have to tell you that this is were America will end up soon.
Not communism, not the socialism were the state controls everything.
Every European country is more or less libertarian.
And libertarian is a part of socialism.

[wowsa0]

So you're saying the people that arent intelligent should get those jobs? do you read what you type?

No, of course an unintelligent person shouldn't be a doctor, but in a capitalist society they will have a worse quality of life because they can't be a doctor (and they can't change that). That is the point I am making.

[Tdog]

They are worth the same, so stop contradicting yourself with your capitalism and equality shit.

Equality only exists under socialism.

Capitalism allows everyone to start out on equal and then each person based on hard work and effort defines how much they are worth in the market.

Socialism is great on paper but in practice does not work.

You cannot pay everyone the same across the board because then nobody would do the tough jobs because the reward is not worth the effort.

If I can work as a Burger flipper and make the same as a Doctor, then why would I put in the effort in becoming a doctor?

[Justinian]

No you're right he probably shouldn't. True Communism does not work because it is undemocratic. But capitalism is not much better, it is not as good as half of forumfall make it out to be. The guy in burger king will earn less, but he does not have the opportunity to earn as much as the doctor. The cleaner in the hospital is just as vital to the running of it as the doctor, but because the supply of people able to clean is so much greater than the supply of people able to treat the sick, their wage is much less, and they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as the doctor and will have a worse off life as a result.

I follow you up to here.

Capitalism is based on the exploitation of the poor by the rich, that is almost a definition of what capitalism is. Again read my sig, Bertrand Russell sums up my point far better than I ever could.

This is where you lose me. How is it exploitation if you just said yourself that the value of the time of a janitor is that much less than that of a doctor? The janitor is voluntarily working as a janitor. It's all voluntary. Where is the great injustice? Where is the exploitation?

[wowsa0]

Capitalism allows everyone to start out on equal and then each person based on hard work and effort defines how much they are worth in the market.

Socialism is great on paper but in practice does not work.

You cannot pay everyone the same across the board because then nobody would do the tough jobs because the reward is not worth the effort.

If I can work as a Burger flipper and make the same as a Doctor, then why would I put in the effort in becoming a doctor?

In a capitalist society working hard is not what earns you the extra money, it's about how in demand your skills are, and people cannot change their skills. Please respond to my above posts.

[palo god]

No, of course an unintelligent person shouldn't be a doctor, but in a capitalist society they will have a worse quality of life because they can't be a doctor (and they can't change that). That is the point I am making.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to start your own business or cash in on one of your other skills.

[Toilet]

Why should we give them anything? Should they not earn their self respect just like everyone else? What makes them special?

Because they are human beings.

If we gave everyone a place to live and took care of them, who in their right mind would work hard? Knowing that you will always have a place to live and always be taken care of.

You would only get the most basic needs, so if you want that plasma you have to work for it.

Nobody is removing their right to go out and better themselfs.

Except other people.

Capitalism allows everyone to start out equal. The only thing that sets people apart is the personal effort each person is willing to put forth.

You forgo a lot of things: Genes, talents, handicaps, education, social status and sex, plus many more.

If two people are born in the same city, on the same day, their chance of succes in life depends who their parents are.

Person A gets born into a rich family, gets a good education and get a good job with a high wage.
Person B gets born into poverty, gets a shit education and is forced to work at Mcdonalds to live..

Fixed for truth.


Your telling me that Person A and Person B should both be given a place to live and equal pay? Really? You don't see the problem here.

Just because person A is lucky dosent mean he should be paid more, and it dosent mean person B should be treated worse than him.

[wowsa0]

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to start your own business or cash in on one of your other skills.

Yes but not everyone has skills that are in demand. You're telling me anyone can make a successful business if they work hard enough? That is rubbish, it takes a skill and a certain degree of intelligence, which not everyone has.

[Dhig]

Capitalism allows everyone to start out on equal and then each person based on hard work and effort defines how much they are worth in the market.

Socialism is great on paper but in practice does not work.

You cannot pay everyone the same across the board because then nobody would do the tough jobs because the reward is not worth the effort.

If I can work as a Burger flipper and make the same as a Doctor, then why would I put in the effort in becoming a doctor?

First of all. Dont think modern socialism to be what you said in your post.
Europe countries includes capitalism and socialism. Not one part but both.

So you are wrong. Socialism with a free market works perfectly and look to the needs of everyone.

No, of course an unintelligent person shouldn't be a doctor, but in a capitalist society they will have a worse quality of life because they can't be a doctor (and they can't change that). That is the point I am making.

Well put wowsa0. :)

[Galadourn]

No its not.

Its against western culture, but it would work fine with middle eastern culture.

almost. it's not against all western culture, and I doubt the middle-eastern cultures could even grasp the notion as they mostly still retain monarchies or totalitarian regimes.

But it is definitely not against human culture...

[Tdog]

No, of course an unintelligent person shouldn't be a doctor, but in a capitalist society they will have a worse quality of life because they can't be a doctor (and they can't change that). That is the point I am making.

Any person can become anything. I dont know who taugh you different.

Lets say someone cannot become a doctor because they just cannot get their mind around the medical field, okay, so they then apply themself to another field and make their own quality of life.

I cannot become a doctor because I do not understand the medical field beyond the average person but that does limit my ability to have a quality life, it just limits which paths I can use to get their.

Just like their are many different paths to your house, their are many different paths to a quality life. Its all about how YOU apply YOURSELF. It has little to do with outside forces. It has everything to do with YOU.

Now yes their are exceptions to this rule, just like every rule.
Generally speaking anyone can do anything they put their mind to, it is that simple.

[Justinian]

Just because person A is lucky dosent mean he should be paid more

Yes, it does. The answer to this is tough shit. There are innumerable examples of people "rising above" their surroundings and taking a stand for his/her own life.

, and it dosent mean person B should be treated worse than him.

No, it doesn't. Rich people can be douche-bags, but so too can poor people. That's a universal trait; it doesn't require class warfare to describe. I treat everyone equally because everyone is an individual with his/her own merits. Some people are born scientists and will be sought after for their gifts; others are born ditch-diggers and will be sought after for their gifts. Maybe these two can even collaborate to make the ditch-digging industry more efficient! Then the lowly ditch-digger has become an innovator and is respected by even the highest-paid people in society.

The point is, nothing is set in stone. Scientists happen to be in great demand now, but give it fifty years; maybe those ditch-diggers will be more in demand and thus get higher wages.

[wowsa0]

Any person can become anything. I dont know who taugh you different.

Lets say someone cannot become a doctor because they just cannot get their mind around the medical field, okay, so they then apply themself to another field and make their own quality of life.

I cannot become a doctor because I do not understand the medical field beyond the average person but that does limit my ability to have a quality life, it just limits which paths I can use to get their.

Just like their are many different paths to your house, their are many different paths to a quality life. Its all about how YOU apply YOURSELF. It has little to do with outside forces. It has everything to do with YOU.

Now yes their are exceptions to this rule, just like every rule.
Generally speaking anyone can do anything they put their mind to, it is that simple.



Intelligence is genetic. Not everyone can be a doctor, if they could the wage wouldn't be so high. In fact by definition of a capitalist society, if anyone could do it, all wages would be the same. The fact that some wages are much higher than others shows that there is a lack of supply of people who can do those jobs, which in turn shows that most people can't do them.

[palo god]

Yes but not everyone has skills that are in demand. You're telling me anyone can make a successful business if they work hard enough? That is rubbish, it takes a skill and a certain degree of intelligence, which not everyone has.

Well that's life, you shouldn't get paid as much as the other guy that made his business from the ground up with sweat and determination just because your stupid and or lazy, also you shouldn't get to cash in on his success.

[Toilet]

Generally speaking anyone can do anything they put their mind to, it is that simple.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

[wowsa0]

The point is, nothing is set in stone. Scientists happen to be in great demand now, but give it fifty years; maybe those ditch-diggers will be more in demand and thus get higher wages.

Well then it is the scientists who will deserve the free healthcare, education, welfare, and homes. The fact that the roles sometimes change does not change the socialist argument. Nice try.

[Justinian]

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

oh. you're just trolling? man, that's so disappointing. I thought you actually believed what you were saying.

[wowsa0]

Well that's life, you shouldn't get paid as much as the other guy that made his business from the ground up with sweat and determination just because your stupid and or lazy, also you shouldn't get to cash in on his success.

Yes, that is why I said I am against communism. But as you admitted: "That's life", capitalism is by no means the perfect system and that is all I am saying. I admit it works in practice far better than communism, but ideally there should be some sort of compromise where necessities of life are provided by the state.

[Galadourn]

I read many replies confusing socialism with (Soviet-type) communism; they are not the same concept.

Communism is as doomed to failure as extreme liberal capitalism, because they both defy human limits.

Socialism recognizes the right of the individual to personal gain and will to improve his position, but draws a hard line on certain goods and services that are absolutely necessary for the entire community and cannot be left to the 'free market' to exploit.

Socialism is viable, communism is not.

[Toilet]

oh. you're just trolling? man, that's so disappointing. I thought you actually believed what you were saying.

My point was that IQ cannot be changed once its set in stone.

THUS NOBODY IS EQUAL, SO STFU!

[Dhig]

Well that's life, you shouldn't get paid as much as the other guy that made his business from the ground up with sweat and determination just because your stupid and or lazy, also you shouldn't get to cash in on his success.

That is not what we are talking about.
We talk about what socialism can offer that capitalism cant.
All you consider is that it destroys the free market and a chance to get rich. It doesnt.
It offers a way to fill the needs of everyone. To feel secure and have some self respect in a home and food on the table. Even if you work at Mcdonalds you should be able to have a car and send your kids to a decent school.

[wowsa0]

oh. you're just trolling? man, that's so disappointing. I thought you actually believed what you were saying.

He made a good point that equal opportunities are a myth, and that fact can never be changed by society because it is at basics genetic.

Have to go now *exits debate*

[Toilet]

That is not what we are talking about.
We talk about what socialism can offer that capitalism cant.
All you consider is that it destroys the free market and a chance to get rich. It doesnt.
It offers a way to fill the needs of everyone. To feel secure and have some self respect in a home and food on the table. Even if you work at Mcdonalds you should be able to have a car and send your kids to a decent school.

Give it up.

They have been fed corporate propaganda since they were born.

[palo god]

That is not what we are talking about.
We talk about what socialism can offer that capitalism cant.
All you consider is that it destroys the free market and a chance to get rich. It doesnt.
It offers a way to fill the needs of everyone. To feel secure and have some self respect in a home and food on the table. Even if you work at Mcdonalds you should be able to have a car and send your kids to a decent school.

yes that is what we are talking about, or cant you read?

Socialism doesn't offer anything good that capitalism doesn't already offer.

[palo god]

Give it up.

They have been fed corporate propaganda since they were born.

I was born in the soviet union, GG.

[Tdog]

Because they are human beings.

You would only get the most basic needs, so if you want that plasma you have to work for it.

Except other people.

You forgo a lot of things: Genes, talents, handicaps, education, social status and sex, plus many more.

Fixed for truth.

Just because person A is lucky dosent mean he should be paid more, and it dosent mean person B should be treated worse than him.

That is just bullshit, their are examples everyday of people draging themselfs up to very successful lifes from very humble beginnings.

I can list a ton of examples from my head without looking shit up.
Bill Gates - dropped out of college

Ford (granted its not doing well now, but to have a company up and running for over a 100 years is not easy)

Mike Ilitch - started with a single pizza store

Obama (love him or hate him, he comes from a single parent and is now a nomanee for president of the USA for fuck sake)

These are just off the top of my head. I am sure I can list 100s of thousands of cases.

Just because you start off poor does not mean you cannot better yourself, its a matter