Skill.

[RavenialNoct]

Despite my always lingering question as to why this is often referred to as Forumfall instead of Darkforum, Hello Forumfall.

I think by now everyone understands, and most hail, this "player skill=win" over "player time=win" concept. However I also think "player skill" or the statement that "Darkfall will rely on player skill." is starting to get tossed around a lot, which is only to say: it's vague. I for one am not exactly sure anymore what people are imagining when they say "skill", because skill can manifest itself in a multitude of ways.

I have seen statements purporting DF's relationship to the mysterious phenomena of "player skill" most often in association with discussions about the function of FFA loot, PvP gear dependency, and, the ever demonized through what has become literal tomes of accumulated DF forumer knowledge (aka hearsey) about the apparently singularly definable "WoW players".

So, for those using this phrase, "DF is a game that relies on player skill, not invested time." does this mean the following:

Because DF is "skill" based, can I start a new char and, by using my FPS skills (which were developed outside of time apparently in games like Oblivion, Arx Fatalis, Mount and Blade, and Counter Strike ), kill almost anyone I find if my FPS twitch skill>opponents FPS twitch skills.

I don't really think many would answer yes. I feel that gear is going to matter slightly more than the difference between Counter-Strike's AK-47, AWP, Mp5, and whether or not you are wearing body armor. This culminates into simply the statment that,

"The time between spawning and dying in DF is not called a "round."

The point I'm trying to make is that we will not escape player invested time having an impact (as there are 0 games in which this is the case), least of all in an RPG. Whether we look at this in terms of individuals or guilds, entities which have existed in the game longer will probably be more powerful. This is in fact a key element of the RPG (which has traditionally been the tale of one becoming a hero, becoming more powerful, advancing through discovery and evolution). Not to be confused with: characters who have been grinding the same raid bosses in the same instances for the most hours. The traditional single player RPG has always been dynamic because it involves a plot line. The MMORPG has attempted to be dynamic. DF could be dynamically dynamic because it could have an ever evolving plot line in which characters evolve (sandbox sandbox sandbox).

I feel that in DF to say "player skill" is to invoke something a little deeper than quick hands on the keyboard and "l337 h34d sh0T pwn4ge skillz" and that it is certainly not synonymous with, as some posters seem to be pushing, "gear doesn't matter".

Equipment variation has always been a mark of character evolution in the RPG, I do not think DF is trying to do away with this in the least. I think they are trying to shift it back to a place of balance from where it currently is in the treadmill MMO market.

Player skill is a term that balloons out therefore to encompass all aspects of a game. One's ability to manage in a dynamic economy is also an aspect of player skill, one's ability to arrange a good battlefield strat and execute a well timed siege could be called skill.

I think that the nuts and bolts of the real time fighting system will also require skill, but I don't think that it won't depend on time invested in at least a few other areas. This might include finding the right materials for equipment, learning the land (exploring), or involving oneself in the social structure which develops.

In any case, I suppose I just want to try to make clear my ideas on what "player skill" means because I was starting to find it in contexts which I feel did not do the term justice.

FOR TLDR
http://books.google.com/books?id=R1QRAAAACAAJ&dq=Hooked+on+Phonics&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

[Thunderjohn]

You speak the truth.

[zlurp]

im hoping quality of gear doesnt matter too much, more on choice of gear and choice of character skillset. Yes time invested will matter, but in terms of a better understanding of the game mechanics in combat as well as which skills work well with which weapons etc

[Ocoma]

Because DF is "skill" based, can I start a new char and, by using my FPS skills (which were developed outside of time apparently in games like Oblivion, Arx Fatalis, Mount and Blade, and Counter Strike ), kill almost anyone I find if my FPS twitch skill>opponents FPS twitch skills.

This part of what you wrote is what players are talking about. Without autotarget if your fps skills are better then your opponents then you'll be hitting them and able to dodge their attacks. Even if their gear is a bit better then yours that doesn't help them much if you're to "twitchy" for them to hit you. Thus skill is the biggest determining factor in combat.

[Teufell]

I like what the OP wrote. I realize that DF is not RL, but it does mimic it in many ways. A newborn does not have the skill to fight a 10yr old, and most 10yr olds do not have the skill to fight a 20yr old. I kind of imagine a new character freshly made as an 18yr old ready to take on life. While they may have the athletics, stamina, muscel etc. to take on a veteran, they do not have the time invested in skills. A veteran who has honed his skills should have an advantage, from situational awareness to finesse with a weapon. More time training usually equals more skill. I hope as the OP stated that DF will be more than a twitch game. I hope there will be certian strategy to what gear you wear; meaning cloth vs light armor vs heavy armor and the tools that those armors bring to the field. A veteran in heavy armor should be able to own a new character in cloth.

On a side note skills from FPS games can be developed outside of DF and create advantages for those that enjoy FPS's.

[Teufell]

This part of what you wrote is what players are talking about. Without autotarget if your fps skills are better then your opponents then you'll be hitting them and able to dodge their attacks. Even if their gear is a bit better then yours that doesn't help them much if you're to "twitchy" for them to hit you. Thus skill is the biggest determining factor in combat.

Yeah this is the biggest part of disappointment for me in DF. Twitching from FPS's shouldn't be in RPG's. I don't think that gear should have levels and I don't think there should be uber gear, but I do think that types of gear should create advantages or disadvantages. I don't agree that a 'twitcher' should win an engagement all the time. Where does the mind play into how a person setup their character. That to me is more skill than twitching.

[Ocoma]

Yeah this is the biggest part of disappointment for me in DF. Twitching from FPS's shouldn't be in RPG's. I don't think that gear should have levels and I don't think there should be uber gear, but I do think that types of gear should create advantages or disadvantages. I don't agree that a 'twitcher' should win an engagement all the time. Where does the mind play into how a person setup their character. That to me is more skill than twitching.

Tactics my friend tactics. If you know you are not the most "twitchy" player around there is still the option to simply use better tactics...ie don't stay in melee range, use the terrain to your advantage shit like that. All of that is "skill" too. The point is still that skill > gear or time invested.

[Woodiwood]

As I haven't tried the game yet it's hard to know facts, but speculate and hope are a good thing. What I hope and believe it will be like is:

RL player skill will matter alot, but skill training and gear will matter alot too.
I doubt 2 players with RL skill and 40 in swords and 40 in some armor skill, meating a dude that has say 80 in the same swords and armor would have a reasonable chance to win.

But lets say the 80 skill dude got jumped by the 40 skill dude, starting with ranged to get him down a bit and finish him off close combat.


What I'm saying is that the long time players might be stronger, but if Darkfall is mostly skill based, then a highly skilled player should be able to catch up, if he plays with both eyes open. And this is w/o spending many months to get to level 50, 80, 120, 255 or whatever the max is in mainline mmo's.

[JackyD]

There's a Dev quote buried somewhere which says that 4-5 fresh chars can, if they play smart, win against a veteran char that also plays smart.

Following that quote time invested will matter, but it will not be to the extent of current cookie cutter MMO's where a veteran char can kill thousands of new chars without even getting a scratch.

[Jonkar]

There's a Dev quote buried somewhere which says that 4-5 fresh chars can, if they play smart, win against a veteran char that also plays smart.


That last part is incorrect. They've never said "against a veteran char that also plays smart".

Any veteran that knows how to play (And don't fool yourself, that's going to be pretty much 90%) is no match for 3-4 new characters.

[Khael[SUN]]

equipment / char skill levels will of course have impact on fights - why would people else bother to get equipment and train up skills.

But not to a point where a char can just go afk and win the fight. It will not have as big impact as in WoW, your damage will not be multiplied with 1000 if you are experienced char, I dont know the numbers of course, but I imagine something like you do 50% more damage output if you are experienced player vs a newb.

But you still have to aim attacks manually, so you have to make an effort to win. The newb might be able to win if he is smarter than you, using the environment etc.

The experienced char that has played df for 3 months will still have to make an effort to win - otherwise he might end up loosing to a char char is only a few days old.

Thats how I imagine it. No use in discussing the specifics, like how many newbs it will take to take down one veteran, because none of us know before beta.