Look at what we have here. (Ron Paul)

[Silverhandorder]

If Fannie and Freddie were not underwritten by the federal government, investors would demand Fannie and Freddie provide assurance that they follow accepted management and accounting practices…. By transferring the risk of a widespread mortgage default, the government increases the likelihood of a painful crash in the housing market. This is because the special privileges granted to Fannie and Freddie have distorted the housing market by allowing them to attract capital they could not attract under pure market conditions. As a result, capital is diverted from its most productive use into housing. This reduces the efficacy of the entire market and thus reduces the standard of living of all Americans."


- Ron Paul, 5 fucking years ago

So then lets see the man who predicted the way current situation will pan out is sitting back in his home in Texas, enjoying his life. While the people who assured us that this will never happen continue to run the economy. Does anyone see the hilarity in this?

[Slypieguy]

You know it's getting bad when Rush Limbaugh starts quoting Mises on the air

[Airius Droc]

And Nader predicted it 10 years ago...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13459.html

What's your point?

[Slypieguy]

And Nader predicted it 10 years ago...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13459.html

What's your point?

Maybe we should listen to someone besides the two party hacks?

[Airius Droc]

Maybe we should listen to someone besides the two party hacks?

I voted for Ross Perot twice...who are you telling?

[Slypieguy]

I voted for Ross Perot twice...who are you telling?

The biggest Obama fanboy on these boards?

[Silverhandorder]

I voted for Ross Perot twice...who are you telling?

He is not telling you anything. Stop feeling all butt hurt.

[Airius Droc]

The biggest Obama fanboy on these boards?

Obama is the best choice for THIS election. If Clinton had won, I would've voted for Nader.

[Slypieguy]

Obama is the best choice for THIS election. If Clinton had won, I would've voted for Nader.

Lol, because Clinton and Obama are sooooo different?

You should totally vote Nader

[Airius Droc]

Lol, because Clinton and Obama are sooooo different?

You should totally vote Nader

They're very different actually. Obama's a better politician for one, which is really saying something.

[Silverhandorder]

I lick Obama's balls, nuff said.
:ninja::sly:

[Slypieguy]

They're very different actually. Obama's a better politician for one, which is really saying something.

Ummm? Are you trolling? We need a "good politician" like we need more wars.

[Incanam]

Ummm? Are you trolling? We need a "good politician" like we need more wars.
No, we need a good politician like we need to get rid of bad ones.

[Gloomrender]

Ummm? Are you trolling? We need a "good politician" like we need more wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns&feature=related

[Airius Droc]

Ummm? Are you trolling? We need a "good politician" like we need more wars.

Imo, Nader and Obama are probably very close to each other in ideology. But Obama is a great politician, and Nader is a horrible one.

Which one do you think has the best chance of being in a position to impact the nation with his ideology?

I mean, George Bush was a great sales person, Al Gore wasn't, and neither was John Kerry. That's why we're in the place we are now.

All I have to say is thank god that McCain is such a horrible politician or the country would really be in some trouble.

[palo god]

No, we need a good politician like we need to get rid of bad ones.

I guess you're to stupid to detect sarcasm.

[Feyrband]

I mean, George Bush was a great sales person, Al Gore wasn't, and neither was John Kerry. That's why we're in the place we are now.

All I have to say is thank god that McCain is such a horrible politician or the country would really be in some trouble.

really a salesman? mostly he just comes off as an easy-going likeable guy while al gore and john kerry are stuck up douchebags.

[Slypieguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns&feature=related

I love you guys so much, will you ever learn that a negative Obama comment is not rebutted by a negative McCain comment? I mean, this is a pretty basic concept.

[Gloomrender]

I love you guys so much, will you ever learn that a negative Obama comment is not rebutted by a negative McCain comment? I mean, this is a pretty basic concept.

Unless that person is voting for McCain like a dumbass.

[Temet nosce]

I love you guys so much, will you ever learn that a negative Obama comment is not rebutted by a negative McCain comment? I mean, this is a pretty basic concept.

Never I hope, I mean I'd lose an excellent source of feeling arrogantly superior if normal people started learning things.

[Slypieguy]

I don't get it Arius, you say being highly skilled at getting yourself elected is a beneficial asset for a president to have (for the country, not for him)? Then you cite Bush an an example? What the hell is going on here

[Slypieguy]

Unless that person is voting for McCain like a dumbass.

Which pretty much no one here is, especially not the person you quoted (me)

[Airius Droc]

really a salesman? mostly he just comes off as an easy-going likeable guy while al gore and john kerry are stuck up douchebags.

I agree that Gore and Kerry are douchebags. But yes, Bush is a sales person. If his daddy wasn't his daddy, he'd have worked in a used car lot for 20 years.

As for him being likeable or easy going, I only know of 28% of the people left in the country who believe that.

[Airius Droc]

I don't get it Arius, you say being highly skilled at getting yourself elected is a beneficial asset for a president to have (for the country, not for him)? Then you cite Bush an an example? What the hell is going on here

It's simple, if Bush wasn't a great sales person he'd have never been in a position to steal the election, and would never have been in a position to use 911 as a way to recreate the country in Cheney's image.

Being a good politician (or sales person) is pretty important. Bill Clinton is another good example of this. Ronald Regan is another.

[Slypieguy]

It's simple, if Bush wasn't a great sales person he'd have never been in a position to steal the election, and would never have been in a position to use 911 as a way to recreate the country in Cheney's image.

Being a good politician (or sales person) is pretty important. Bill Clinton is another good example of this. Ronald Regan is another.

Oh, so Obama will be better at selling his socialist policies to the people/congress than Hillary would have? I get it. Only flaw here is that Mickey Mouse could sell these policies to the current (and likely more after the election) failure of a congress and the american public who is only looking for what handouts they can get next.

[Airius Droc]

and yes, in a rare effort to show objective/reflective common ground, I'd love it if a third party canidate could win. The two party system sucks - it's broken in many ways.

But it's OUR fault - the people. We really are the government. Hell I just talked to several people in my local government today. They come right up to my door and ask for my vote. They're real people living in my town (not my neighborhood) and they exist on the same level that I do.

But hey, there I go taking responsiblity for my vote. Again, Obama is the best choice for THIS election. Kerry was the best choice for the last one. Gore was the best choice for 2000. Two of the three were douchebags...sure. But at least they weren't Bush or McCain.

[Slypieguy]

But it's OUR fault - the people. We really are the government. Hell I just talked to several people in my local government today. They come right up to my door and ask for my vote. They're real people living in my town (not my neighborhood) and they exist on the same level that I do.


How many US congressmen have ever come to your door?

[Airius Droc]

Oh, so Obama will be better at selling his socialist policies to the people/congress than Hillary would have? I get it. Only flaw here is that Mickey Mouse could sell these policies to the current (and likely more after the election) failure of a congress and the american public who is only looking for what handouts they can get next.

I hope you're right about that...and yeah, I agree, with an all Democratic Congress with a large majority to boot, Mickey Mouse COULD get those policies through.

Universal Healthcare - Year One
Out of Iraq and into Afghanistan - Year Two
and this is my favorite one - Retro Impeachment of George Bush - Year Three and Four - I know this sounds silly now, but just wait until we're in the 2nd Great Depression. Obama will put the blame squarely on Bush - and rightly so.

That's how I see it, and I can't wait.

[Airius Droc]

How many US congressmen have ever come to your door?

None. How many have you written or called?

We're the government, and when we stop demanding better decisions, we stop getting them.

[Gloomrender]

I hope you're right about that...and yeah, I agree, with an all Democratic Congress with a large majority to boot, Mickey Mouse COULD get those policies through.

Universal Healthcare - Year One
Out of Iraq and into Afghanistan - Year Two
and this is my favorite one - Retro Impeachment of George Bush - Year Three and Four - I know this sounds silly now, but just wait until we're in the 2nd Great Depression. Obama will put the blame squarely on Bush - and rightly so.

That's how I see it, and I can't wait.

Universal Healthcare=Bad.

[Carl Ragadamn]

I hope you're right about that...and yeah, I agree, with an all Democratic Congress with a large majority to boot, Mickey Mouse COULD get those policies through.

Universal Healthcare - Year One
Out of Iraq and into Afghanistan - Year Two
and this is my favorite one - Retro Impeachment of George Bush - Year Three and Four - I know this sounds silly now, but just wait until we're in the 2nd Great Depression. Obama will put the blame squarely on Bush - and rightly so.

That's how I see it, and I can't wait.

I hope McCain is elected, just to see you have a stroke.

[Protonix]

As for him being likeable or easy going, I only know of 28% of the people left in the country who believe that.

Count me as part of that 28%, I think Dubya would be a lot of fun at a BBQ or on football sunday, etc.

How many US congressmen have ever come to your door?

1

[Gloomrender]

Count me as part of that 28%, I think Dubya would be a lot of fun at a BBQ or on football sunday, etc.



1

Who?

[Slypieguy]

I hope you're right about that...and yeah, I agree, with an all Democratic Congress with a large majority to boot, Mickey Mouse COULD get those policies through.

Universal Healthcare - Year One
Out of Iraq and into Afghanistan - Year Two
and this is my favorite one - Retro Impeachment of George Bush - Year Three and Four - I know this sounds silly now, but just wait until we're in the 2nd Great Depression. Obama will put the blame squarely on Bush - and rightly so.

That's how I see it, and I can't wait.

The congressional polls have quietly shifted back to the right, so don't get too cock too soon :p
And I'm no Bushie, but blaming the state of the economy on him makes me rofl. Somehow it's Bush's fault that the housing bubble that has been developing for decades finally burst. Somehow it's his fault that the credit bubble is finally bursting. Somehow it is his fault that a bunch of high-ups sunk a shitload of money into predatory packaged loans. We can agree that Bush is a bad president, but at least be reasonable. That comment is just as ignorant as "lol it's Bush's fault that oil went up!1!"

[Slypieguy]

1

Shh! I didn't ask you, you Washington insider!

[Airius Droc]

I hope McCain is elected, just to see you have a stroke.

Stranger things have happened.

Right now, Palin is giving a lot of people a reason not to vote for a black man - so that could happen. We'll know after the debates, probably the first one.

I *think* after Obama and McCain debate, Obama will get a bump - go up 49 to 45 nationwide - and stay there. I *think* he'll win big (bigger than we've seen since Clinton was re-elected) on electoral votes, and be close with the national vote on nov. 4th.

We'll see. If Obama loses I'll truly be upset. I'm going to be raising 4 small children during the 2nd great depression, and I'd much rather have FDR as my president than Hoover.

[Slypieguy]

None. How many have you written or called?

We're the government, and when we stop demanding better decisions, we stop getting them.

Irrelevant, writing a US congressman does nothing unless done so in a concerted effort with a bunch of people. I was just making the point that your "they are real people too" comment doesn't really fly on the national level

[Carl Ragadamn]

The congressional polls have quietly shifted back to the right, so don't get too cock too soon :p
And I'm no Bushie, but blaming the state of the economy on him makes me rofl. Somehow it's Bush's fault that the housing bubble that has been developing for decades finally burst. Somehow it's his fault that the credit bubble is finally bursting. Somehow it is his fault that a bunch of high-ups sunk a shitload of money into predatory packaged loans. We can agree that Bush is a bad president, but at least be reasonable. That comment is just as ignorant as "lol it's Bush's fault that oil went up!1!"

On the brightside the Dem majority in congress will not prosecute the top tier of Freddie and Fanny. The better news is when those 2 organizations are broken up into several smaller private companies, the former board members of Freddie and Fanny will be given inside tracks and no added regulation.

[Slypieguy]

On the brightside the Dem majority in congress will not prosecute the top tier of Freddie and Fanny. The better news is when those 2 organizations are broken up into several smaller private companies, the former board members of Freddie and Fanny will be given inside tracks and no added regulation.

Chris Dodd ftw?

[Carl Ragadamn]

Stranger things have happened.

Right now, Palin is giving a lot of people a reason not to vote for a black man - so that could happen. We'll know after the debates, probably the first one.

I *think* after Obama and McCain debate, Obama will get a bump - go up 49 to 45 nationwide - and stay there. I *think* he'll win big (bigger than we've seen since Clinton was re-elected) on electoral votes, and be close with the national vote on nov. 4th.

We'll see. If Obama loses I'll truly be upset. I'm going to be raising 4 small children during the 2nd great depression, and I'd much rather have FDR as my president than Hoover.

To bad Obama was to afraid to show up to even 1 of the townhall style debates that McCain wanted (he asked for 11). As long as Barry has his scripted and sifted answers he will be fine, if not beware the um-train.

[Airius Droc]

Irrelevant, writing a US congressman does nothing unless done so in a concerted effort with a bunch of people. I was just making the point that your "they are real people too" comment doesn't really fly on the national level

I had a friend that writes his congress woman every other month. She writes him back every time - generally disagreeing with him (it was funny to read these letters).

I've heard many people in congress say that just 100 letters is HUGE, since no one ever writes anymore. That if just a small percentage of voters would be more proactive they could change A LOT. I believe that.

And if they're not real people, what the hell are they?

[Slypieguy]

To bad Obama was to afraid to show up to even 1 of the townhall style debates that McCain wanted (he asked for 11). As long as Barry has his scripted and sifted answers he will be fine, if not beware the um-train.

These debates will be painful to watch.

Obama generic scripted answer
McCain tired sounding republican soundbyte answer
Democrat playbook rebuttal
Reductium ad Hitlerum

Next question...

[Entreri]

I actually met a guy running for congress at a party like 3 weeks ago. I saw him again like a week ago, but didn't talk to him since he was rude to me at the party. I didn't realize he was running for congress at the time though.

[Gloomrender]

That if just a small percentage of voters would be more proactive they could change A LOT. I believe that.

I don't. It's too easy for them to simply ignore people.

And if they're not real people, what the hell are they?

I've heard they have automated responses, and or secretaries, who respond for them.

[Airius Droc]

To bad Obama was to afraid to show up to even 1 of the townhall style debates that McCain wanted (he asked for 11). As long as Barry has his scripted and sifted answers he will be fine, if not beware the um-train.

Who's barry?

Also, the losing candidate always asks for extra debates. If Obama is losing after the three debates, he'll probably take up McCain on that offer for more town halls. :)

[Slypieguy]

I had a friend that writes his congress woman every other month. She writes him back every time - generally disagreeing with him (it was funny to read these letters).

I've heard many people in congress say that just 100 letters is HUGE, since no one ever writes anymore. That if just a small percentage of voters would be more proactive they could change A LOT. I believe that.

And if they're not real people, what the hell are they?

The only time I wrote, I got a generic boilerplate response letter back from an assistant.
If 100 letters were "huge," something about illegal immigration and domestic drilling would have been done by now. There have been massive writing campaigns for those two issues and absolutely nothing done.

[Airius Droc]

I don't. It's too easy for them to simply ignore people.



I've heard they have automated responses, and or secretaries, who respond for them.

Maybe there's a difference between good ones and bad ones. Write yours and find out which one they are.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Next question...

The next question is a hypothetical one: Assuming the best possible outcome of the debates (McCain stabbing to death Biden, Obama, and Palin before the Secret Service guns him down), what is the process for getting new candidates?

[Protonix]

Who?

Mike Arcuri

Shh! I didn't ask you, you Washington insider!

Hey, it wasn't in Washington!

I've heard they have automated responses, and or secretaries, who respond for them.

Or the hot little interns that work on cap hill.

[Airius Droc]

The only time I wrote, I got a generic boilerplate response letter back from an assistant.
If 100 letters were "huge," something about illegal immigration and domestic drilling would have been done by now. There have been massive writing campaigns for those two issues and absolutely nothing done.

Are you telling me that if the people in Ron Paul's district wrote him and said "enough of this...let's just get the fed funding" he wouldn't listen? These guys have to listen, it's just that people don't participate.

[Slypieguy]

The next question is a hypothetical one: Assuming the best possible outcome of the debates (McCain stabbing to death Biden, Obama, and Palin before the Secret Service guns him down), what is the process for getting new candidates?

Maybe they reconvene at a convention and pick them? Good question. Maybe it's the last person who was remaining in the primary with the most votes? Maybe they delay it and have new primaries? That would be epic, extra time in Bush's term, the left would be going ape shit

[Temet nosce]

The next question is a hypothetical one: Assuming the best possible outcome of the debates (McCain stabbing to death Biden, Obama, and Palin before the Secret Service guns him down), what is the process for getting new candidates?

Well, that depends on if there was a second simultaneous attack on the House while that was occurring. If that's the case then we should probably eliminate electoral colleges and parties, institute strict campaign finance laws, and then have a real election. Otherwise go back to step 1 and try again.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Who's barry?

Also, the losing candidate always asks for extra debates. If Obama is losing after the three debates, he'll probably take up McCain on that offer for more town halls. :)

Barry was the name obama used to go until he "decided it was time to grow up".

[Forsaken]

I'm for universal healthcare, it'd be the first time in...10-15 years? That id be able to go to a doctor and not have to sell my car to foot the bill.

[Slypieguy]

Are you telling me that if the people in Ron Paul's district wrote him and said "enough of this...let's just get the fed funding" he wouldn't listen? These guys have to listen, it's just that people don't participate.

Maybe he would, but that's a terrible example, as RP is one of the only congressmen who has a conscience

[Slypieguy]

I'm for universal healthcare, it'd be the first time in...10-15 years? That id be able to go to a doctor and not have to sell my car to foot the bill.

Insurance motherfucker, do you use it?

[Airius Droc]

Maybe they reconvene at a convention and pick them? Good question. Maybe it's the last person who was remaining in the primary with the most votes? Maybe they delay it and have new primaries? That would be epic, extra time in Bush's term, the left would be going ape shit

That's just the point...

Yeah, the left would be going crazy, but they wouldn't do anything about it. Why? Because no one organizes and fights anymore. We'd all watch it on our tv sets and bitch - just like the last 8 years.

As long as you believe that your letter counts for nothing...it does. As long as you believe that the people don't have the power, they don't.

[Airius Droc]

Maybe he would, but that's a terrible example, as RP is one of the only congressmen who has a conscience

He's a byproduct of the people he represents. You give him more credit than he deserves if you think he does it all on his own. Even HE'D agree with me on that.

[Gloomrender]

Maybe there's a difference between good ones and bad ones. Write yours and find out which one they are.

Pretty sure they're all bad.

And I'm not about to write John McCain.

[Carl Ragadamn]

I'm for universal healthcare, it'd be the first time in...10-15 years? That id be able to go to a doctor and not have to sell my car to foot the bill.

I have a chronic health problem and have not been to the doctor in 9 years, you dont see me crying about do ya? Nor do you see me expecting others to pay for me.

[Slypieguy]

That's just the point...

Yeah, the left would be going crazy, but they wouldn't do anything about it. Why? Because no one organizes and fights anymore. We'd all watch it on our tv sets and bitch - just like the last 8 years.

As long as you believe that your letter counts for nothing...it does. As long as you believe that the people don't have the power, they don't.

Don't preach to the choir, you're the one voting for one of the 2 parties. I'm voting for real change :)

[Forsaken]

Insurance motherfucker, do you use it?

Insurance costs money

Your just one of many that has come to accept the notion of 20 flavors of insurances into their every day life.

[Airius Droc]

Pretty sure they're all bad.

And I'm not about to write John McCain.

He's a politician, he'd be for earmarks if enough people wrote him about it.

[Airius Droc]

Don't preach to the choir, you're the one voting for one of the 2 parties. I'm voting for real change :)

Alan Keyes?

[Gloomrender]

Don't preach to the choir, you're the one voting for one of the 2 parties. I'm voting for real change :)

Coulda sworn you were voting for McCain.

I was thinking about voting for Obama. But I've been reminded that he wants universal healthcare, and more cops countrywide.

This country is fucked either way. /facepalm

[Carl Ragadamn]

I'm voting for real change :)
I am voting for change I can believe in, by writing in the ghost of Patrick Henry.
Insurance costs money

Your just one of many that has come to accept the notion of 20 flavors of insurances into their every day life.

So you choose to have no insurance, then find a doctor who is reasonable or go without. You have made a choice, man up to what that brings.

[Slypieguy]

Insurance costs money


No shit? It's useless talking to a bunch of people who expected to be handed everything. You have a job that makes money don't you? That money can be spent on insurance so you wouldn't have to bitch about the hospital costs, what a concept!

[Forsaken]

I am voting for change I can believe in, by writing in the ghost of Patrick Henry.


So you choose to have no insurance, then find a doctor who is reasonable or go without. You have made a choice, man up to what that brings.

We shouldn't have a what if system of medical coverage.

I've been healthy for the last 10-15 years and haven't had to need to go to a Doctor's office.

I shouldn't pay for medical insurance for 10-15 years and if im healthy for those 10-15 years, have to pay for it.

[Slypieguy]

Alan Keyes?

Why's it gotta be someone black? racist

[Surly]

Insurance costs money

Your just one of many that has come to accept the notion of 20 flavors of insurances into their every day life.Universal healthcare costs money. More money... lots more! The poorer you are, the less of a percentage you pay, but if you're an "average" wage earner you're going to be paying more for Universal Healthcare than you are for insurance. Universal Healthcare is just a mandatory government-enforced insurance from a single entity, and one which guarantees payment for any treatment covered in most cases which as you're certainly aware leads to price gouging. But it's okay for useless poor people, I guess, because when the "government" gets gouged for money it only makes them pay an extra $1.52 in taxes when everyone else is dropping $1,000s per year more on it.

lol can you imagine if this Universal Healthcare were being offered by an insurance company and not "the government", only having the mandate enforced by the government? Oh wait, just look at car insurance.

[Temet nosce]

This country is fucked either way. /facepalm

So? Anything actually new going on?

If you want some cheerfulness just repeat after me "Bush isn't in the election.", oh wait I forgot McCain decided he agreed with Bush on most issues. Nevermind we're exactly as fucked as usual. (lets be honest, I seriously doubt anyone on here can recall an election where the candidates made anyone but nutjobs happy)

[Silverhandorder]

We shouldn't have a what if system of medical coverage.

I've been healthy for the last 10-15 years and haven't had to need to go to a Doctor's office.

I shouldn't pay for medical insurance for 10-15 years and if im healthy for those 10-15 years, have to pay for it.

You are not very smart then. The healthcare you want will make you pay the same through taxes.

[Slypieguy]

We shouldn't have a what if system of medical coverage.


Sorry to break it to you, but healthcare isn't a "right"


I've been healthy for the last 10-15 years and haven't had to need to go to a Doctor's office.

I shouldn't pay for medical insurance for 10-15 years and if im healthy for those 10-15 years, have to pay for it.

Umm, that's what insurance is, lol. And under a universal system you would still be paying for health care all that time through higher taxes (omg really!?)

[Forsaken]

Universal healthcare costs money. More money... lots more! The poorer you are, the less of a percentage you pay, but if you're an "average" wage earner you're going to be paying more for Universal Healthcare than you are for insurance. Universal Healthcare is just a mandatory government-enforced insurance from a single entity, and one which guarantees payment for any treatment covered in most cases which as you're certainly aware leads to price gouging. But it's okay for useless poor people, I guess, because when the "government" gets gouged for money it only makes them pay an extra $1.52 in taxes when everyone else is dropping $1,000s per year more on it.

lol can you imagine if this Universal Healthcare were being offered by an insurance company and not "the government", only having the mandate enforced by the government? Oh wait, just look at car insurance.

Are you telling me, the average hypochondriac American doesn't end up spending over $1000 a year in visits/co-pays for silly little ailments?

I still don't honestly see why car insurance is mandated because in the long run, a person can still sue you and your insurance company depending on the type of accident.

[Forsaken]

You are not very smart then. The healthcare you want will make you pay the same through taxes.

Because you assume i'm upper-class?

Universal benefits the vast majority more, but what can I expect from a capitalist society.

[Surly]

Hey guys, ever since FDR stacked the supreme court by getting additional seats created on it allowing him to appoint 9 justices, and the "general welfare" prefatory statement of purpose became a keyhole stretched into a goatse-sized wormhole sucking the very fabric of fiscal freedom into its cavernous depths, we can legitimize ANYTHING as long as it's for the children!

[Surly]

Are you telling me, the average hypochondriac American doesn't end up spending over $1000 a year in visits/co-pays for silly little ailments?

I still don't honestly see why car insurance is mandated because in the long run, a person can still sue you and your insurance company depending on the type of accident.
I'm telling you that an idiot hypochondriac currently paying for his own visits to the doctor will, under Universal Healthcare, be making you foot the bill for his extravagant health expenses. Universal Healthcare is a collectivist insurance policy for everyone, there's no difference whatsoever except that payment is compulsory for everyone.

[Gloomrender]

I'm telling you that an idiot hypochondriac currently paying for his own visits to the doctor will, under Universal Healthcare, be making you foot the bill for his extravagant health expenses. Universal Healthcare is a collectivist insurance policy for everyone, there's no difference whatsoever except that payment is compulsory for everyone.

Don't forget that the government controls it too *cough*.

[Forsaken]

It amuses me to no end how folks with 20 different flavors of insurance [medical, car, house, etc] will be all against a system like Universal Health care when there are systems out there that hand out food stamps and welfare checks like it's Christmas everyday.

I've never used food stamps nor have I received a welfare check, but i've seen MIDDLE-classed people using food stamps and welfare like it's going out of style, for simple reasons such as : Ethnic Background or Child on the Way.

These are everyday realities, why are you defending the insurance company's that are in it for the simple concept of making money off of you?

[Forsaken]

Don't forget that the government controls it too *cough*.

You are truly naive if you think the government doesn't have its fingers in insurance company's nation wide.

[Gloomrender]

You are truly naive if you think the government doesn't have its fingers in insurance company's nation wide.

That's not nearly as much control as they would have if we had universal healthcare.

[Forsaken]

I also feel truly sorry for folks that can't get insured because of

Age
Weight
Ethnic Background
Family History
Wages
Smoking
Drinking
History of Depression
Etc

While the universal system, would cover you regardless and can't "drop" you at a moments notice.

[Surly]

You're running that 31 Flavors Baskin Robbin line like it's some kind of propaganda you picked up on NPR. Are you brainwashed Forsaken? Let's hear an original thought out of you rather than claiming to be "amused" by people who don't want to see their health insurance costs go up even higher. There's a big problem with our current system for sure, and that problem has everything to do with government healthcare, legal obligations for treatment, and legislated guarantees for payment of proceedures which (not surprisingly) tend to go up when there's a "limitless" supply of money willing to be spent on each treatment.

[Surly]

Who the hell is defending insurance companies? I want my goddamned healthcare costs going back down to a reasonable enough price that we can pay for them out of pocket, or choose to buy insurance if we feel it a prudent investment. Health Insurance being "standard" has been a relatively new inception in this country, since the 40s in fact.

[Forsaken]

Hardly brainwashed.

I can actually admit I barely even watch the "news" because so many are government controlled.

I'm a realist and I understand human nature very well.

There isn't a source I rely on for information, just clear as day opinion and thoughts.

You folks should probably mention how absolutely useless medical insurance is once something [big] does happen [IE:Cancer]


Straddled with debt for the rest of your life and if your lucky, file for bankruptcy.

In my honest opinion unless your in the $150k+ bracket and you get diagnosed with anything like Cancer, consider purchasing a gun and a few shells, you'd be better off in the long run stress wise.

[Forsaken]

Oh for quick reference can you show me some numbers on how American's are uninsured [medical] ?

Since you folks make it out like i'm the only person who doesn't have medical insurance.

I can throw some numbers out if you'd like.

[Forsaken]

Who the hell is defending insurance companies? I want my goddamned healthcare costs going back down to a reasonable enough price that we can pay for them out of pocket, or choose to buy insurance if we feel it a prudent investment. Health Insurance being "standard" has been a relatively new inception in this country, since the 40s in fact.

What about tactics insurance companies use to deny and/or drop "customers"?

[Surly]

Hardly brainwashed.

I can actually admit I barely even watch the "news" because so many are government controlled.

I'm a realist and I understand human nature very well.

There isn't a source I rely on for information, just clear as day opinion and thoughts.

You folks should probably mention how absolutely useless medical insurance is once something [big] does happen [IE:Cancer]


Straddled with debt for the rest of your life and if your lucky, file for bankruptcy.

In my honest opinion unless your in the $150k+ bracket and you get diagnosed with anything like Cancer, consider purchasing a gun and a few shells, you'd be better off in the long run stress wise.
So what's your beef with lowering health care costs instead of using tax money to reward the price gouging? Businesses (yes, hospitals are businesses) are easy to predict, they go after money. It's not "evil" and it's not "good", it's just how they operate, and they're at the eternal mercy of the market and peoples' willingness to pay. Instead of trying to find new and creative ways to meet their payment schedules and demands, fuelling a massive health care industry (what's it up to now, 20% of the entire GDP?), why not get rid of the idiotic overheads causing all of the problems and then giving them a Taxpayer-funded credit card to go crazy with?

lol can you imagine if we had a Universal Gas Card program where everyone got "free" gas, and the oil companies made out like bandits slurping up delicious tax revenues? Oh, shit, wait a second... they already do that with subsidies. Well darn!

Shit, let's start by legalizing medication.

[Forsaken]

So what's your beef with lowering health care costs instead of using tax money to reward the price gouging? Businesses (yes, hospitals are businesses) are easy to predict, they go after money. It's not "evil" and it's not "good", it's just how they operate, and they're at the eternal mercy of the market and peoples' willingness to pay. Instead of trying to find new and creative ways to meet their payment schedules and demands, fuelling a massive health care industry (what's it up to now, 20% of the entire GDP?), why not get rid of the idiotic overheads causing all of the problems and then giving them a Taxpayer-funded credit card to go crazy with?
[/I].

Doesn't change the facts that insurance companies regardless of the price they charge you will still use age old tactics. Hospitals aren't at the willingness of people to pay, hospitals hire debt collectors plenty, they either get paid or they don't [usually when they don't get paid its a person filing bankruptcy due to insane medical bills]

I'm not against lowering health care costs, not sure where you got that, im against the insurance company's that provide "medical insurance" and can REFUSE you the right to insurance.

Insurance company's can also blackball you from being insured in a state because of medical conditions, essentially denying your right to LIVE.

So what say you?

Universal Health Care where a person gets to choose if they live or Insurance Company's that can deny your right to live?

[Surly]

What about tactics insurance companies use to deny and/or drop "customers"?Exactly my point, people are at the mercy of insurance agencies because of the exorbitant costs of health care. It doesn't have to be that way. Can you honestly rationalize why it costs upwards of $200 for a plastic case full of little pills? How it costs multiple thousands of dollars to perform surgery?

I suppose we all rationalize that it's "sophisticated" and complicated because we don't understand it that well... and that this money must be being spent as necessary. But that isn't the case at all. Health care costs are the problem, and taking a defensive stance scurrying around trying to find ways to pay off the shake-down only begets more of the same problem.

Insurance agencies drop people to increase profits. Their power comes from the fear of the average person when facing huge costs to "save their life". You want to socialize everything, increasing the costs and rewarding the system that is fucking you in the shithole. It isn't the "insurance agencies" that are causing all of these, they're just greedily capitalizing on present realities. A practice I'd like to see ended as much as you, but you're focusing on the symptom rather than the cause. Treating the insurance agencies like the root of this problem completely absolves the healthcare industry from its guilt.

Pharmaceutical MFGs being the primary offenders here.

[Protonix]

Sorry to break it to you, but healthcare isn't a "right"


not yet anyway

[Forsaken]

Exactly my point, people are at the mercy of insurance agencies because of the exorbitant costs of health care. It doesn't have to be that way. Can you honestly rationalize why it costs upwards of $200 for a plastic case full of little pills? How it costs multiple thousands of dollars to perform surgery?

I suppose we all rationalize that it's "sophisticated" and complicated because we don't understand it that well... and that this money must be being spent as necessary. But that isn't the case at all. Health care costs are the problem, and taking a defensive stance scurrying around trying to find ways to pay off the shake-down only begets more of the same problem.

Insurance agencies drop people to increase profits. Their power comes from the fear of the average person when facing huge costs to "save their life". You want to socialize everything, increasing the costs and rewarding the system that is fucking you in the shithole. It isn't the "insurance agencies" that are causing all of these, they're just greedily capitalizing on present realities. A practice I'd like to see ended as much as you, but you're focusing on the symptom rather than the cause. Treating the insurance agencies like the root of this problem completely absolves the healthcare industry from its guilt.

Pharmaceutical MFGs being the primary offenders here.


I agree with this in it's entirety, I think that's the point I was trying to get at myself.

I agree, plastic bottles of pills shouldn't cost $200+

But as I said earlier to another person, if you don't think insurance company's and hospitals and/or health care industry isn't in bed together to make $$$ in this capitalist society we've errected around us, you need to wake up.

[Forsaken]

not yet anyway

I guess dying is our only right then :(

[Surly]

Doesn't change the facts that insurance companies regardless of the price they charge you will still use age old tactics. Hospitals aren't at the willingness of people to pay, hospitals hire debt collectors plenty, they either get paid or they don't [usually when they don't get paid its a person filing bankruptcy due to insane medical bills]

I'm not against lowering health care costs, not sure where you got that, im against the insurance company's that provide "medical insurance" and can REFUSE you the right to insurance.

Insurance company's can also blackball you from being insured in a state because of medical conditions, essentially denying your right to LIVE.

So what say you?

Universal Health Care where a person gets to choose if they live or Insurance Company's that can deny your right to live?
There is no fucking "right" to insurance. Are you daft? You're linking "insurance" to "getting healthcare". That is the fundamental problem. There is no reason in this country that we should need health insurance to get health care, it should be affordable. The propagation of any system which rewards extortion by the health care industry, particularly pharmaceuticals, is what prevents this and worsens the current problem.

Forget insurance. You're bitching about an issue that has nothing to do with your lack of being able to get treatment. This is a slightly complicated topic - not even that mind-blowing, either. There are only two tiers you need to grasp: What does insurance do? and Why can't I get health care?

The answers to those questions are not the same.

[ForzikTheFeared]

Ron Paul needs to be elected, but a few of his ideas need work. Like the currency one. We should get off the federal reserve, but still use currency.

[Carl Ragadamn]

There is no fucking "right" to insurance. Are you daft? You're linking "insurance" to "getting healthcare". That is the fundamental problem. There is no reason in this country that we should need health insurance to get health care, it should be affordable. The propagation of any system which rewards extortion by the health care industry, particularly pharmaceuticals, is what prevents this and worsens the current problem.

Forget insurance. You're bitching about an issue that has nothing to do with your lack of being able to get treatment. This is a slightly complicated topic - not even that mind-blowing, either. There are only two tiers you need to grasp: What does insurance do? and Why can't I get health care?

The answers to those questions are not the same.

It can be affordable, if you find the right doctor. As I said earlier, I do not have health insurance nor do I go to the doctor. I do however know a certain doctor who will treat a patient for cash, he is reasonable and will even work out a payment plan for more extensive treatment. This whole transaction happens off the books at your home, with an agreement not to sue if something goes wrong.

[Forsaken]

There is no fucking "right" to insurance. Are you daft? You're linking "insurance" to "getting healthcare". That is the fundamental problem. There is no reason in this country that we should need health insurance to get health care, it should be affordable. The propagation of any system which rewards extortion by the health care industry, particularly pharmaceuticals, is what prevents this and worsens the current problem.

Forget insurance. You're bitching about an issue that has nothing to do with your lack of being able to get treatment. This is a slightly complicated topic - not even that mind-blowing, either. There are only two tiers you need to grasp: What does insurance do? and Why can't I get health care?

The answers to those questions are not the same.


With no insurance in a major situation [IE:Cancer] and if one is refused that right of insurance and even with insurance at times, you will be so far in debt once your done, you might as well have opted for death.

Please try and understand i'm not trying to argue the right to have insurance, but more or less that the current system we have in place is totally fucked.

Do I have solutions? Maybe, but they would be nothing more than opinion that nobody out there who is involved in the current health care industry would give a shit about because they are too busy swimming in their pools filled with $100 bills [the average cost of a doctors visit]

It really is a multifaceted issue and I doubt we could reach a logical closure point about it anytime soon.

[Surly]

I agree with this in it's entirety, I think that's the point I was trying to get at myself.

I agree, plastic bottles of pills shouldn't cost $200+

But as I said earlier to another person, if you don't think insurance company's and hospitals and/or health care industry isn't in bed together to make $$$ in this capitalist society we've errected around us, you need to wake up.I think the only thing you're not paying attention to, then, is that $200+ bottles of pills have reached that level of cost because you as a consumer have been forced to compete with another consumer: The US Federal Government, which guarantees payment of insane prices. Competition is the most fundamental aspect of any market economy. Whosoever is forced to compete is the loser when it comes to profit. I contend that hospitals need to be vying for customers and providing affordable health services, as well as pharmaceutical companies vying for consumers and providing affordable products, rather than shunning consumers and trying to suckle as much as they can from government and insurance backed coverages.

While insurance companies give better coverage, they'll cut you off if you threaten their profits. The government, on the other hand, will give you shit service and let you die, or simply not cover something... and then what do you do? What the hell do you do if the only legal form of insurance in this country (Universal Healthcare) doesn't cover what you need, or puts you on a waiting list that'll see you dead? Who do you turn to? Health care costs in such a system are too high to foot unless you're a goddamned millionaire... and all this at the cost of increasing the total GDP % that the industry eats away from our economy.

Where is the benefit to this? There isn't a single one. Just go look at the VA hospitals.

[Carl Ragadamn]

With no insurance in a major situation [IE:Cancer] and if one is refused that right of insurance and even with insurance at times, you will be so far in debt once your done, you might as well have opted for death.

Please try and understand i'm not trying to argue the right to have insurance, but more or less that the current system we have in place is totally fucked.

Do I have solutions? Maybe, but they would be nothing more than opinion that nobody out there who is involved in the current health care industry would give a shit about because they are too busy swimming in their pools filled with $100 bills [the average cost of a doctors visit]

It really is a multifaceted issue and I doubt we could reach a logical closure point about it anytime soon.

So you have the right to choose to fight the cancer and be poor with a percentage shot to live longer than 5 years, or the right to die and not pay for anything other than pain killers. See you have the right to choose. You do not have the right to tack the cost of keeping you alive onto other people. (this coming from a person who has a family history of 90% of deaths due to cancer)

[Surly]

With no insurance in a major situation [IE:Cancer] and if one is refused that right of insurance and even with insurance at times, you will be so far in debt once your done, you might as well have opted for death.Or file for bankruptcy. My dad had a heart attack a few years back and is in debt for the rest of his life from it (no insurance). They still treated him. I don't think he wishes he was dead.

Please try and understand i'm not trying to argue the right to have insurance, but more or less that the current system we have in place is totally fucked.But you just said, and I quote:
"im against the insurance company's that provide "medical insurance" and can REFUSE you the right to insurance."

Get your argument straight, for fuck's sake. I think you're being really idealistic here, and saying "no i didn't say that" after you just did only furthers that idea.


Do I have solutions? Maybe, but they would be nothing more than opinion that nobody out there who is involved in the current health care industry would give a shit about because they are too busy swimming in their pools filled with $100 bills [the average cost of a doctors visit]

It really is a multifaceted issue and I doubt we could reach a logical closure point about it anytime soon.Then why do you support Universal Healthcare? It purports to be just that.

[Forsaken]

So you have the right to choose to fight the cancer and be poor with a percentage shot to live longer than 5 years, or the right to die and not pay for anything other than pain killers. See you have the right to choose. You do not have the right to tack the cost of keeping you alive onto other people. (this coming from a person who has a family history of 90% of deaths due to cancer)

And is that why your uninsured?

Because of family history?

And with 90% of deaths in your family due to cancer, did they all received treatment? Or did they eventually give up to save their families from having to foot the bill?

[Mippoose]

Protonix? :D

[Protonix]

Look at that Forsaken, you have Surls frothing at the mouth.

[Protonix]

Protonix? :D

Yes dear?

[Carl Ragadamn]

And is that why your uninsured?

Because of family history?

And with 90% of deaths in your family due to cancer, did they all received treatment? Or did they eventually give up to save their families from having to foot the bill?

Nope I am uninsured, because I choose to spend my money being happy. If something terrible happens to me, I am man enough to accept the consequences of my choices.

Most of my family received millions of dollars of medical care, they knew what was in the cards and planned accordingly. (only exception was an aunt who had 5 kinds of stage 4 cancer when they found it, but she had chosen to skip getting full body scans and accepted death with remarkable grace)

[Forsaken]

Or file for bankruptcy. My dad had a heart attack a few years back and is in debt for the rest of his life from it (no insurance). They still treated him. I don't think he wishes he was dead.


Did he file for bankruptcy?

If not how are the collection calls going? 10-20 calls a day?

Heart attack and no insurance, he must be well funded, run a business perhaps?

Then again these are mere assumptions, though I can't really continue them without knowing if he filed for bankruptcy or not.

I'm against insurance company's refusing a person's right to insurance if they are in fact a healthy person and are basing it off some shit data like depression, family history, etc. My bad, I should have been more clear, but maybe you support the wild notion of insurance company's denying you insurance based on incredibly odd data. [Did I mention they can even deny you based on your skin color? Pretty awesome]

[Lindorn]

Look at that Forsaken, you have Surls frothing at the mouth.

Sorry I speak troll let me translate:

I have no reasonable argument to contend with the one being made by Surly, so I'll post a smartass remark to try and elevate the stature of a faltering ideology

[Gloomrender]

Sorry I speak troll let me translate:

More like "Let me boost my ego at Surly's expense".

[Lindorn]

I'm against insurance company's refusing a person's right to insurance if they are in fact a healthy person and are basing it off some shit data like depression

This is precisely the problem with Americans today. You feel entitled to something you are not, and you feel that if you don't get what you are entitled to that someone else should foot the bill for you.

The problem with your ideology is that you fail to look at the logical endpoint in your pipe dream world where everyone has universal health care. You will never eliminate poverty, sickness, disease, or the lower class. So why in God's name do you insist on taking other people's money to keep making attempts at it.

[Protonix]

rushing to surly's aid? I expected more from you.

I perhaps could have misunderstood, I'm sleepy. If so, many apologies.

[Lindorn]

More like "Let me boost my ego at Surly's expense".

Actually I don't think Proto is an egomaniac in any way shape or form. He's one of the friendliest people I have ever met.

rushing to surly's aid? I expected more from you.

Surly doesn't need me to rush to his aid. If the tables were turned and it were him making the smartass comments I'd say the same thing even if I disagreed with you. You just have a bad habit of throwing your weight into an argument even though you claim a false position of indifference. I don't think that's fair in a turbulent cauldron of political debates.

If you are going to keep your distance keep your distance. If you want to put in your piece expose yourself like everyone else. That's just the adult thing to do in my opinion.

[Forsaken]

Then why do you support Universal Healthcare? It purports to be just that.

I'm not sure you are using "purports" correctly, because I honestly don't see anything wrong in caring for the human race even though I hate the few at the "top" that step on the idiotic brain dead masses.

I care about the welfare of a good handful of people, mostly lower - middle class folks busting their asses day in and day out.

I know a bad person when I see one, it takes me a little less than two minutes to figure a person out. [In person, the internet is a completely different story]

[Carl Ragadamn]

rushing to surly's aid? I expected more from you.

I perhaps could have misunderstood, I'm sleepy. If so, many apologies.

no you just experienced the closest thing to Lindorn trolling.

[Carl Ragadamn]

I'm not sure you are using "purports" correctly, because I honestly don't see anything wrong in caring for the human race even though I hate the few at the "top" that step on the idiotic brain dead masses.

I care about the welfare of a good handful of people, mostly lower - middle class folks busting their asses day in and day out.

I know a bad person when I see one, it takes me a little less than two minutes to figure a person out. [In person, the internet is a completely different story]

Its one thing to care, its another to force others to care at the point of a gun.

[Delthayre]

It might help reduce the costs of medical care if the severe requirement that foreign doctors who want to practice medicine in the United States repeat their residency.

Enacting public health insurance would almost invariably lead to inefficient rationing of care by policy or rule that it presently, if imperfectly, accomplished by prices. Medical care is, abstractly, a scarce resource, which if without cost will be used wantonly, as any resource would be, without limitations upon access.

...ever since FDR stacked the supreme court by getting additional seats created on it allowing him to appoint 9 justices...

I would be remiss if I did not correct this statement. The number of Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States has been fixed at nine since 1869; President Roosevelt's plan to add one justice for every sitting justices who was older than seventy, which would have increased the number of Justices to fifteen, was rejected by Congress.

[Surly]

Did he file for bankruptcy?

If not how are the collection calls going? 10-20 calls a day?

Heart attack and no insurance, he must be well funded, run a business perhaps?He's in debt for the rest of his life, what do you think? He must be rich, lol! Right.... He pays them $100/mo, which is about 5% of what he's supposed to pay. As long as you're making payments of some kind they can't really do jack to you, and most respectable hospitals aren't going to go through the trouble of suing some one for money they don't have. Regardless, as I've been pointing out, that hospital isn't going under any time soon from this. The profits they make off of charging that kind of money to insurance and government agencies which do pay sustains their existence, despite the fact that they rarely if ever collect from uninsured people who they do treat.

This is the point, they aren't even vying for private monies anymore, and that's the problem. These costs are not legitimate, but a company will always charge the most it can to get as much profit as possible... and currently, while the taxpayer is obliged to pay anything they charge through obligatory treatment and government health care, they'll charge entirely too much both for the sake of increasing profits and for the sake of (now that the system is ingrained in their pay schedules) counteracting their profit loss from treating the people they're legally required to treat but who have no method of paying.

Then again these are mere assumptions, though I can't really continue them without knowing if he filed for bankruptcy or not.

I'm against insurance company's refusing a person's right to insurance if they are in fact a healthy person and are basing it off some shit data like depression, family history, etc. My bad, I should have been more clear, but maybe you support the wild notion of insurance company's denying you insurance based on incredibly odd data. [Did I mention they can even deny you based on your skin color? Pretty awesome]What right to insurance? And shit, car insurance companies do the same thing based on age, sex, race, etcetera. Funny how those supposed "protected classes" don't matter when the violators of the laws are the ones writing the laws. But bitching about lobbying is another issue entirely.

For this issue, placating and rewarding the institutions which are causing this problem with a Universal Healthcare payment plan is the worst possible thing you can do if you want people to achieve good health care in this country. I've made what I consider to be the entirety of my case, and you've not rebuked a single point of it, so I'll just leave as it is.

[Septus]

Maybe there's a difference between good ones and bad ones. Write yours and find out which one they are.

Or yours is just wasting tax payer money on secretaries to write letters back to you retards.

[Gloomrender]

Actually I don't think Proto is an egomaniac in any way shape or form. He's one of the friendliest people I have ever met.



Surly doesn't need me to rush to his aid. If the tables were turned and it were him making the smartass comments I'd say the same thing even if I disagreed with you. You just have a bad habit of throwing your weight into an argument even though you claim a false position of indifference. I don't think that's fair in a turbulent cauldron of political debates.

If you are going to keep your distance keep your distance. If you want to put in your piece expose yourself like everyone else. That's just the adult thing to do in my opinion.

He couldn't get an ego boost that way. I have every confidence that he's "a nice guy IRL", but on these forums he's here for his ego. He flat out admitted it recently. And you've noted in part how he accomplishes this objective.

[Forsaken]

Paying the bare minimum payments doesn't stop collection calls. The calls will remain until he is dead, I think your lying to me or he's got a lot of money stashed somewhere in bonds, properties, etc.

You father truly lives a fairy tale life.

Or he's simply kept you in the dark about the harsh realities of his current situation.

I've opted for a universal health care movement, i've yet to see a sign of your solution or opinion on what should be done to fix the current situation.

While you may disagree with my opinion and thoughts, i've yet to see a compelling argument from you that would [change] the situation we are currently in, 50+ Million Uninsured Americans.
[this is a low number, it is much higher than this]

[Lindorn]

Paying the bare minimum payments doesn't stop collection calls.

Do you even know how debt works in this country? If you are paying the bare minimum payments on something some banker somewhere is spooging in his pants.

There is no situation MORE ideal than this one for creditors. Hell they get to collect from you for 700 years and you'll pay more interest then you ever owed in medical bills.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Paying the bare minimum payments doesn't stop collection calls. The calls will remain until he is dead, I think your lying to me or he's got a lot of money stashed somewhere in bonds, properties, etc.

You father truly lives a fairy tale life.

Or he's simply kept you in the dark about the harsh realities of his current situation.

I've opted for a universal health care movement, i've yet to see a sign of your solution or opinion on what should be done to fix the current situation.

While you may disagree with my opinion and thoughts, i've yet to see a compelling argument from you that would [change] the situation we are currently in, 50+ Million Uninsured Americans.
[this is a low number, it is much higher than this]

How about a fix at the state level if you must have government doing things? For example here is how my state is attempting to help those without insurance http://www.in.gov/core/3046.htm I qualify for this program but choose not to participate.

Do you even know how debt works in this country? If you are paying the bare minimum payments on something some banker somewhere is spooging in his pants.

There is no situation MORE ideal than this one for creditors. Hell they get to collect from you for 700 years and you'll pay more interest then you ever owed in medical bills.

This reminded me of an article I read that said you can choose a 200 yr mortgage in Japan, and it forces your offspring to pay on it after you die. I totally want a loan like that.

[Protonix]

Actually I don't think Proto is an egomaniac in any way shape or form. He's one of the friendliest people I have ever met.

Why thank you!

Surly doesn't need me to rush to his aid. If the tables were turned and it were him making the smartass comments I'd say the same thing even if I disagreed with you. You just have a bad habit of throwing your weight into an argument even though you claim a false position of indifference. I don't think that's fair in a turbulent cauldron of political debates.

Oh I know he doesn't need you to, he's perfectly capable of getting all worked up on his own. I'm sorry that you find my habit to be distasteful, but for the purposes of these forums, indifferent troll is indifferent. I am merely the yin to Surly, Matriel, Airius's collective yangs.

If you are going to keep your distance keep your distance. If you want to put in your piece expose yourself like everyone else. That's just the adult thing to do in my opinion.

If I find an issue that I feel like chatting about, I will do so in my own time and place, not at the behest of anyone else. Until then, I will continue to be amused, and point out my amusment, as I see fit.

[Forsaken]

Do you even know how debt works in this country? If you are paying the bare minimum payments on something some banker somewhere is spooging in his pants.

There is no situation MORE ideal than this one for creditors. Hell they get to collect from you for 700 years and you'll pay more interest then you ever owed in medical bills.

What does this have to do with anything? If he is in DEBT even while making PAYMENTS, those collection calls still exist.

Debt is a little fun micromanagement game for creditor companies, how long can we get this person to keep paying their bill before they file bankruptcy.

[Protonix]

He couldn't get an ego boost that way. I have every confidence that he's "a nice guy IRL", but on these forums he's here for his ego. He flat out admitted it recently. And you've noted in part how he accomplishes this objective.

I admitted that? Whatev.

I'm here for the chics.

[Forsaken]

How about a fix at the state level if you must have government doing things? For example here is how my state is attempting to help those without insurance http://www.in.gov/core/3046.htm I qualify for this program but choose not to participate.



This reminded me of an article I read that said you can choose a 200 yr mortgage in Japan, and it forces your offspring to pay on it after you die. I totally want a loan like that.

Looked over it, doesn't seem bad.

I don't mind state level, im just amused at folks against government control, don't you realize you lost most of your liberties already? Don't you realize think the common man is already fucked?

Who are you kidding?

Short of a revolution, things won't change anytime soon.

[Lindorn]

Debt is a little fun micromanagement game for creditor companies, how long can we get this person to keep paying their bill before they file bankruptcy.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The absolute last thing your debtors want is for you to file bankruptcy, because if you do they stop receiving interest payments. Do you even think before you speak? why the fuck do you think that WHEN YOU DO go file bankruptcy you can't get any fucking credit for EIGHT YEARS? Are you kidding me?

EDIT: Unless your statement was saying that they WANT to keep you paying as long as possible, in which case you are correct. But how does that fit in with collection calls. If you are paying...they could give a shit less...even with a preference toward minimum payments.

[Delthayre]

I admitted that? Whatev.

I'm here for the chics.

I'm here because I have an obsessive personality. You should hear me go on about hats.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Looked over it, doesn't seem bad.

I don't mind state level, im just amused at folks against government control, don't you realize you lost most of your liberties already? Don't you realize think the common man is already fucked?

Who are you kidding?

Short of a revolution, things won't change anytime soon.

If you would get gungho for state level healthcare you would get attacked alot less. Its not ideal but would be 100000000000000000000000000 times better than National healthcare.

[Protonix]

I'm here because I have an obsessive personality. You should hear me go on about hats.

Please, go on.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Please, go on.

No not here it deserves its own thread. It couldnt be any worse than half the threads today.

[Protonix]

I find that to be acceptable.

[Lindorn]

If I find an issue that I feel like chatting about, I will do so in my own time and place, not at the behest of anyone else. Until then, I will continue to be amused, and point out my amusment, as I see fit.

You know better than to think that I'd expect you to take an action at the behest of myself or anyone else. I just see what I perceive as immature behavior and I'm calling you out on it. I think that to express disdain for other people's opinions or persona's while shielding yourself from criticism is cowardly and disrespectful. You don't have to take that to the bank and I don't expect you to. However I feel obligated to express that to you here, since I think everyone deserves to be treated equally.

[Gloomrender]

I admitted that? Whatev.

I'm here for the chics.

You did. I'm not judging your motivations, just pointing them out.

[Forsaken]

EDIT: Unless your statement was saying that they WANT to keep you paying as long as possible, in which case you are correct. But how does that fit in with collection calls. If you are paying...they could give a shit less...even with a preference toward minimum payments.


This ^

And the no credit for eight years?

Please stop talking out your ass okay?

[Surly]

Paying the bare minimum payments doesn't stop collection calls. The calls will remain until he is dead, I think your lying to me or he's got a lot of money stashed somewhere in bonds, properties, etc.You've never been in that situation, and you're trying to cling to a doomsday theory to support your ridiculous accusation of evil capitalists. Hospitals do not report you to collection agencies if you pay them what you can, he has never received any hit to his credit rating, never been reported delinquent, and never turned over to a collection agency. There are some people in this world who have compassion, being a "corporation" does not nullify that possibility.

You father truly lives a fairy tale life.

Or he's simply kept you in the dark about the harsh realities of his current situation.How the fuck could he? After his heart attack he couldn't work for a while and moved in with me. I'm keenly aware of his situation, and you're being awfully insulting.

I've opted for a universal health care movement, i've yet to see a sign of your solution or opinion on what should be done to fix the current situation.Fix? It's moving towards universal health care that's caused it.

While you may disagree with my opinion and thoughts, i've yet to see a compelling argument from you that would [change] the situation we are currently in, 50+ Million Uninsured Americans.
[this is a low number, it is much higher than this]Uninsured Americans is not the problem, Uninsured Americans Not Being Able To Get Health Care is. Insurance does not have to be the only gateway to treatment, and isn't... and since the crux of your whiny argument rested upon the shoulders of calling a particularly weighty scenario to the contrary "a fairy tale" you're without a leg to stand on.

Close your ears and hum, what you're doing is ignoring reality.

[Forsaken]

You act like im not talking from real life experiences myself Surly as I used the cancer example over and over.

Then again I think our views might be different on the entire debt thing.

With insurance and a combined 100k+ earnings some people still manage to fill into the pitfalls of bankruptcy.

[Protonix]

You know better than to think that I'd expect you to take an action at the behest of myself or anyone else. I just see what I perceive as immature behavior and I'm calling you out on it. I think that to express disdain for other people's opinions or persona's while shielding yourself from criticism is cowardly and disrespectful. You don't have to take that to the bank and I don't expect you to. However I feel obligated to express that to you here, since I think everyone deserves to be treated equally.

I expressed amusement moreso than disdain here. I'm just amused by the way in which Surly portrays himself in some of his posts, that's all. I find him to be unnecessarily flagrant in some of his arguments and that fact amuses me.

Obviously, I'm not shielding myself if I'm still here chatting away about my opinion, and debating with you the merits either way. As for "shielding" my opinions, it's not because I dislike criticism to the point where I'm afraid of posting an opinion, I just don't find it necessary to do so. I don't owe anyone here my opinion. If you find that to be "shielding" then fair enough, I just find it to be my right to express myself how and when I see fit.

[Protonix]

You did. I'm not judging your motivations, just pointing them out.

Screenshots or it isnt true.

[Lindorn]

This ^

And the no credit for eight years?

Please stop talking out your ass okay?

WOW you've got to be fucking kidding me. Bankruptcy will lower your credit to an abyssmally low rate for several years, possibly even put your rating at 0. You will not be able to get a home loan and you will be hard pressed to get even credit cards.

You can in many cases rebuild your credit within a few years. But you are talking about an arduous task with very few channels or choices to take advantage of. My parents filed bankruptcy in 92 and their credit ratings were put at 0 and they could not get any loans for 8 years.

don't accuse me of talking out of my ass.

[Surly]

You act like im not talking from real life experiences myself Surly as I used the cancer example over and over.

Then again I think our views might be different on the entire debt thing.

With insurance and a combined 100k+ earnings some people still manage to fill into the pitfalls of bankruptcy.It's irrelevant, the examples are the same for the topic. The treatment is too expensive to bare the burden of because treatment costs are incredibly high due to the present situation of guaranteed payment made by people who do have programs that will pay. Insurance payments merely tag along behind what the government will pay, which increases premiums and causes more "high risk" people getting dropped. Insurance companies are a machine, and a predictable one, they are not the problem.

The only difference between heart attacks and cancer is that cancer is a prolonged treatment plan whereas a heart attack is a one-shot deal. You'll notice that in this country, we're one of only 5 in the world who have entire professions dedicated to "testing" people unnecessarily, and cancer is probably the best money making scheme since the pet rock.

edit: Those 5 being the US, the UK, Canada, Saudi Arabia, and .... uh.... well, I forget the other one. Mexico maybe.

[Forsaken]

WOW you've got to be fucking kidding me. Bankruptcy will lower your credit to an abyssmally low rate for several years, possibly even put your rating at 0. You will not be able to get a home loan and you will be hard pressed to get even credit cards.

You can in many cases rebuild your credit within a few years. But you are talking about an arduous task with very few channels or choices to take advantage of. My parents filed bankruptcy in 92 and their credit ratings were put at 0 and they could not get any loans for 8 years.

don't accuse me of talking out of my ass.

Don't act like you can't rebuild your credit and are totally fucked for 8 years.

That's all im saying.

[Slypieguy]

Man health care is such a boring topic, bad derailment

[Forsaken]

The only difference between heart attacks and cancer is that cancer is a prolonged treatment plan whereas a heart attack is a one-shot deal. You'll notice that in this country, we're one of only 5 in the world who have entire professions dedicated to "testing" people unnecessarily, and cancer is probably the best money making scheme since the pet rock.


Exactly.

I've always said the same thing myself, about how cancer is the best money making scheme since the pet rock. Thumbs up, I agree 100%


At this point I think i'm going to discontinue the conversation because I know how exactly forumfall functions, it's really irrelevant as to who is right or wrong on these forums at times.

[Protonix]

assuming there is a right and wrong

[Surly]

I've always said the same thing myself, about how cancer is the best money making scheme since the pet rock
In those words?

Creepy.

[Forsaken]

In those words?

Creepy.

It's what I basically said to the person who is a family member that was diagnosed with cancer over a year ago.

It is rather creepy, because I was mad, frustrated, etc and was tired of the bullshit she had to go through because of it and all the while I was like "these assholes must make so much fucken money off this cancer bullshit"

[Forsaken]

assuming there is a right and wrong

meh.

[Lindorn]

Don't act like you can't rebuild your credit and are totally fucked for 8 years.

That's all im saying.

Don't act like? are you twelve? Your credit is totally fucked when you file bankruptcy. If you don't think or know so you are completely ignorant of the situation. Look it up for fucks sake.

[Gloomrender]

Screenshots or it isnt true.

In the case that you managed to edit it out in time, I will first state what you said, before trying to look it up. You responded to someone else about the benefits of posting in forums, or something like that, and you said something to the extent of "Ya. But the ego boost is nice", Or simply "The ego boost from posting is nice"...something along those lines.

Again, I haven't endeavored to judge your motivations. But I do believe this was a moment were you candid in making your statement. For long term posters such as yourself, with such an immense time dedicated, and having seen every kind of imaginable thread many times over, an ego boosting may be the only benefit left in posting on forums like this one. Surely the intellectual sharpening you could get from these discussions, and or the amusement one could glean from them, could diminish greatly over time.

[Protonix]

I don't remember saying it distinctly, but I'll roll with it. It's fun to get some satisfaction that people enjoy, or even disdain your presence on the forums. I'm a socialite.

[Slypieguy]

In the case that you managed to edit it out in time, I will first state what you said, before trying to look it up. You responded to someone else about the benefits of posting in forums, or something like that, and you said something to the extent of "Ya. But the ego boost is nice", Or simply "The ego boost from posting is nice"...something along those lines.

Again, I haven't endeavored to judge your motivations. But I do believe this was a moment were you candid in making your statement. For long term posters such as yourself, with such an immense time dedicated, and having seen every kind of imaginable thread many times over, an ego boosting may be the only benefit left in posting on forums like this one. Surely the intellectual sharpening you could get from these discussions, and or the amusement one could glean from them, could diminish greatly over time.

You said glean

[Gloomrender]

You said glean

Now you're gleaning amusement.

[Weeking]

I'm not sure I understand the poll alternatives.
You mean social liberal in as little government involvement or to mean Democrat?
You mean fiscally liberal to mean low taxes and few regulations or Democrat.

USA have pretty much the opposite meaning of liberal as we do in Norway. Here liberal is about the same as libertarian and we even have a tiny 'libertarian' party called translated The Liberal People's Party.

[Silverhandorder]

In America Fiscal Liberal is for unrestrained big government.

[Bamboopanda]

No shit? It's useless talking to a bunch of people who expected to be handed everything. You have a job that makes money don't you? That money can be spent on insurance so you wouldn't have to bitch about the hospital costs, what a concept!

Untill your insurance deny's your claim and then nobody else ensures you, so your out the tens of thousands of dollars you paid to them for the last few years, and get nothing in return because getting anything out of them will cost a ton of money, and the chances are slim to non existant that you will win.

Need more insurance office bloodbaths by terminal but treatable patients who are to destitute to do anything else. If your going anyway, may as well take the fucks who sent you there with you.

[Silverhandorder]

Untill your insurance deny's your claim and then nobody else ensures you, so your out the tens of thousands of dollars you paid to them for the last few years, and get nothing in return because getting anything out of them will cost a ton of money, and the chances are slim to non existant that you will win.

Need more insurance office bloodbaths by terminal but treatable patients who are to destitute to do anything else. If your going anyway, may as well take the fucks who sent you there with you.

So you propose expand the already failing system?

[Bamboopanda]

So you propose expand the already failing system?

How about regulate insurance companies so they cannot deny you unless it is do to flagrant lies on your end. That would be a start, then you can work on big health care companies, start looking at them more as public utilities and go from there, fuck free market if it starts fucking you. There is a reason hospitals cannot deny you emergency care, why exactly do you think that is?

Fair only works when the road is going both ways, once one side does not play right anymore, why should you play nice? Get out the guns and teach them the reason why people say be polite.

[Vanno]

I'm not really any of those. While I am a complete social liberal (what you do is your own business, so long as it doesn't interfere with my life). On the Economic/Fiscal level, I'm more of a progressive-conservative, which seems an oxymoron.

[hardboiled]

Yay at least r4nge and Carl Ragadamn are with me.