realization reading a lot of conspiracy theories

[Ammon777]

Lately, I have been reading a bunch of the internet stuff about aliens and UFOs and conspiracy theories in general. I've watched a shitload of their lectures, ect... And I am beginning to see some common threads here.

Number one, I cannot disregard the reality that the entire conspiracy & alien conspiracy community is completely interconnected and have a common set of ideas; however, their ideas differ on very important issues. They all share and exchange ideas with each other in attempt to enlighten themselves and get to the "truth" -- however, they really are grasping at straws. Previously I took this to mean that perhaps there is more evidence, however that might be entirely questionable since ALL of these people get their information from both spiritual new age teachings (hence esotericism at its root), and from very questionable methods of gaining information, and through what can be entirely labelled as RUMORS, as well as EACH OTHER.

They have interconnected ideas that are certainly corrupted by a few charlatans, fake preachers who have the most incredible ideas of them all, and so every of them latch onto the awesome ideas in hope that they true, and then it gets incorporated into the community mindset as factual reasoning, which in reality it was entirely make up bullshit; perhaps a few of those ideas are credible, however since many of these guys claim entirely different things about certain stuff (for instance, one guy said that that all planets of the solar system are just like Earth, with forests, oceans, and life; other people didnt even mention that there is life on Saturn or any other planet in the solar system besides Earth... Why not?).

Now seeing as I grew up in a church that was entirely created out from the asshole of a fucking charlatan christian dipshit, the biggest con-artist in the entire history of America (Joseph Smith), I am now regretibly going to shove this conspiracy theory crap under the Rug of Bullshit.

Why? Because its a community of people that believe in things that cannot be 1) proven or 2) disproven. Thats how a cult works, and is just the same as any bullshit religion. They have neat-o and incredible ideas, and while I will not deny that UFOs probably exist and that aliens *might* exist, I do not really think that any of these people actually know what is going on with them. The people that claim to know whats going on -- while they have a common thread of thought reinforced by each other -- have differences with all the other people that claim they know whats going on.

So here are these people, they are a community of fanatics, and they support each other, they listen to each other, exchance ideas... Are all of these people genuine? Knowing human nature, I say ABSOLUTELY NOT. And they do not use science, it is much more like a cult or religion; therefore, whoever is not genuine among them, surely corrupts the entire group's idea by created misinformation. Therefore it follows that is it impossible to believe anything they claim because they are not based on factualities, but instead based on a community-supported story-weaving. While it may be true that some of them may have been abducted, I do not think that some of these people actually have credible stories. Humans enjoy creating stories, especially if they can get a lot of attention from it, i.e. Joseph Smith and all the other Mormon "prophets" that like to pull bullshit out their asses and claim they are real.

I am sure there are alien species and stuff out there in the universe, but I do not have any trust or faith that these people know very much about it. These are guys that scoure the internet, and books, and lectures by other theorists like them, for clues. But in reality they really are grasping at straws. The evidence of that is because they have community-supported theories combined with their own fantasy-based, unique version. Sorry, but if there are truths about aliens out there, it cannot be mutable and changeable from person-to-person. For instance, either Saturn has humans on it, or it does not! Either the grays are cybernetic organisms created and controlled by a master race far out in the universe, or they are a unique race that does not have any masters! These communities claim that BOTH are true. Therefore, nobody really knows, because they are really just guessing.

Science will evolve concepts through evidence, science does not use mutable variables and bad methodologies with scarce evidence to form its theories. While these conspiracy theorist communities do just that.

TL;DR version: Conspiracy theories are USUALLY false due to being corrupted by misinformation.

edit -- I edited the question so its not so universal. As pointed out, some of them might be true... but we may never know.

Upcoming Poll: Do you think my opinion about this is true or false?

[Skyborn]

It was too long to read so I just assumed you were wrong.

Having noticed the short version at the end I would say that you are still wrong becuase you did not leave room for the possiblity that the conspiracy theorists could be correct. The sun shines on a turd every once in a while.

[surGeonFFS]

Yes, no, maybe. You don't know and we don't want you to know. We know, that you don't want us to know, that you don't want us to know, that you think you know, but we know. Confused? Good, that was my intent.. Maybe.

[Ammon777]

It was too long to read so I just assumed you were wrong.

Having noticed the short version at the end I would say that you are still wrong becuase you did not leave room for the possiblity that the conspiracy theorists could be correct. The sun shines on a turd every once in a while.
I have given them all a chance by listening to them and going over their information, so I think I gave plenty chances for them to be prove their correctness. And the option to vote No also allows that possibility.

Their communities have some similar ideas but at the same time make many various separate and incompatible claims.

Next time you say something against a person's argument, perhaps you should read his argument first?

edit -- oh wait, you trolled.

[Ammon777]

Yes, no, maybe. You don't know and we don't want you to know. We know, that you don't want us to know, that you don't want us to know, that you think you know, but we know. Confused? Good, that was my intent.. Maybe.

stop keeping me in the dark :ohno:

[Scully]

They are wrong because they are looking for something that isn't there.

[Zwarp]

Its true, I'm a proof of alien invasion.

[Salaman]

Having noticed the short version at the end I would say that you are still wrong becuase you did not leave room for the possiblity that the conspiracy theorists could be correct. The sun shines on a turd every once in a while.

The problem with a conspiracy "theory" is that any evidence presented that disproves the possibility it could be correct is rejected or ignored on the basis that it was somehow fabricated by the conspirators, or is a cover-up of some kind. So, in the mind of a conspiracy theorist, there is always that possibility that they're right because they will never admit to being proven wrong.

[Jezrith]

I put false, but only because you don't define what you include in the "conspiracy theory" group. Some stuff that people believe is a conspiracy theory, isn't a theory at all, just reality. A lot of it you are dead on, but some stuff is real people just don't want it to be.

[Ammon777]

Its true, I'm a proof of alien invasion.

Is that why your Location: Dec 2012? :eek:

[Villa]

No comedy 3rd option = failed thread.

[Skyborn]

TL;DR version: Conspiracy theories are all false due to being corrupted by misinformation.


I ended up reading it after I saw this line...but I have to say you are wrong just because of this line.

Conspiracy theories can be correct...they usually arent, but nothing is universal...

[Sandrix]

Surprisingly enough I actually read your entire post carefully, and I agree.

Conspiracy theories flourish among relatively small communities of people. While it is easy to discredit them out of hand for being obvious bullshit by comparing them to the standards of normal thought established by larger communities, to do so is to take part in the same sort of communal story weaving that allows conspiracy theories to inspire belief.

Its a lot harder to consider such claims at face value and discover that while outlandish beliefs can be very convincing, the origin of their ability to convince comes entirely from certain peculiarities of human nature, and actually has nothing to do with how likely to be true they are.

[Ammon777]

I put false, but only because you don't define what you include in the "conspiracy theory" group. Some stuff that people believe is a conspiracy theory, isn't a theory at all, just reality. A lot of it you are dead on, but some stuff is real people just don't want it to be.
Almost all of them are interconnected and have the same community. Those concerning: alien messages to humanity, UFOs, crop circles, Earth's moon, alien species in the galaxy/universe, government coverups of aliens, government conspiracies , Illuminati, Freemasonry conspiracy, North American Union conspiracy, 9/11 conspiracy -- they might be taken as separate, but really they are all interwoven and typically believed in by the same exact people.

[Ammon777]

Surprisingly enough I actually read your entire post carefully, and I agree.

Conspiracy theories flourish among relatively small communities of people. While it is easy to discredit them out of hand for being obvious bullshit by comparing them to the standards of normal thought established by larger communities, to do so is to take part in the same sort of communal story weaving that allows conspiracy theories to inspire belief.

Its a lot harder to consider such claims at face value and discover that while outlandish beliefs can be very convincing, the origin of their ability to convince comes entirely from certain peculiarities of human nature, and actually has nothing to do with how likely to be true they are.
Thats right. You have to judge by considering not only the theories, but those people that 1) claim to know them, and 2) those that are enthusiasts about them. I dont trust most people for good reason. Most of them are full of shit. We cant help to make stuff up. Its human nature.

[5%Luck]

While I do not believe in aliens or the theory concerning them there are a great number of conspiracy theorys about that have some creditability to them. Such as the microwave gun that can cause an anurism and further a stroke or different wavelengths of sound(ultra sonic) that can manipulate specific density of bodily fluids causing a vibro feeling then sell you pills to ease your discomfort all the while causing it and selling stocks!. Its out there for sure but aliens----> NO FREAKING WAY! The sheer distance and mass required is completely unreasonable. Time travel: only a look at the past not travel to it, like light that reflected off an object and looked at from the current time at an extream distance. All other possibility are off!

[Skyborn]

they might be taken as separate, but really they are all interwoven and typically believed in by the same exact people.

Data comes from? Just curious.

[ClownFoot]

I read the first 2 paragraphs then said "fuck it, I just wanted to vote in the fucking poll" picked false.

[Ammon777]

I ended up reading it after I saw this line...but I have to say you are wrong just because of this line.

Conspiracy theories can be correct...they usually arent, but nothing is universal...

You are right, I will change the word ALWAYS to USUALLY.

[Ammon777]

Data comes from? Just curious.
Observed by reading the various conspiracy theories, how else.

edit --errm... I mean... I learned that by observing who these people were and that the same groups of people attend similar convensions with each other. If you listen to some of the chatter in the audience at a convension/lecture (I did that on a youtube video), sometimes when the lecturer says something, a person in the audience says, "I have that same information" or "I totally agree, the aliens told me that too" or "I was on an Andromedian craft and they told me the same thing."

Knowing human nature, how many of these people are full of shit? I say a good lot.

[Jezrith]

Almost all of them are interconnected and have the same community. Those concerning: alien messages to humanity, UFOs, crop circles, Earth's moon, alien species in the galaxy/universe, government coverups of aliens, government conspiracies , Illuminati, Freemasonry conspiracy, North American Union conspiracy, 9/11 conspiracy -- they might be taken as separate, but really they are all interwoven and typically believed in by the same exact people.

That is true, but just because some people interweave them altogether it has no bearing on whether or not one particular item is true or not. All salmon my be fish, but not all fish are salmon. Politically nfluential people in the U.S. and Canada are pushing for a North American Union is just a fact. There is nothing "conspiracy theory" about it. Same is true for Globalized government. You can read there own policy papers on their official websites like http://www.cfr.org and http://www.globalresearch.ca. Does the fact that the ideas behind the NAU are real make the shape shifting reptilians from another dimension real? Of course it doesn't, but the opposite is just as true. The fact that shape shifting reptilians are bullshit doesn't make the NAU bullshit either.

Judging the truth based on whether or not another theory is real, or what the people are like that support the theory is intellectually dishonest at best.

[Yarias]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias is a nice explanation of the phenomena.

[Skyborn]

You are right, I will change the word ALWAYS to USUALLY.

Then I agree with you...though I can't change my vote at this point.

Observed by reading the various conspiracy theories, how else.

edit --errm... I mean... I learned that by observing who these people were and that the same groups of people attend similar convensions with each other. If you listen to some of the chatter in the audience at a convension/lecture (I did that on a youtube video), sometimes when the lecturer says something, a person in the audience says, "I have that same information" or "I totally agree, the aliens told me that too" or "I was on an Andromedian craft and they told me the same thing."

Knowing human nature, how many of these people are full of shit? I say a good lot.

Interesting...hadn't really thought about it since I try to avoid wackjobs but I guess it doesnt suprise me.

[Ammon777]

That is true, but just because some people interweave them altogether it has no bearing on whether or not one particular item is true or not. All salmon my be fish, but not all fish are salmon. Politically nfluential people in the U.S. and Canada are pushing for a North American Union is just a fact. There is nothing "conspiracy theory" about it. Same is true for Globalized government. You can read there own policy papers on their official websites like http://www.cfr.org and http://www.globalresearch.ca. Does the fact that the ideas behind the NAU are real make the shape shifting reptilians from another dimension real? Of course it doesn't, but the opposite is just as true. The fact that shape shifting reptilians are bullshit doesn't make the NAU bullshit either.

Judging the truth based on whether or not another theory is real, or what the people are like that support the theory is intellectually dishonest at best.
Although I am not judging the people themselves, I agree somewhat; however, there are myriad forms of the same fundamental theory (for instance, theories about gray aliens) that are different and incompatible with each other.

When you have an incompatibility between one person's theory and another person's theory, there are two possibilities: A) one of them is true and the other is false; or B) both of them are false. If it happens that C) both of them are true, then it becomes even more ambiguious.

Such as:

theory #1: gray aliens are cybernetic organisms controlled by distant masters;

and

theory #2: gray aliens are a living species of aliens that like to use genetic manipulation.

Conspiracy communities cannot reconcile both, and so they tend to accept both as true. But they are two incompatible theories. Which one is true? Nobody can disprove or prove either one, and so this falls into the realm of inconsistency.

Now you look at both human abductees who were told this by gray aliens or whatever alien race told them that. Are the aliens lying? Or is it more likely that the humans are lying?

The biggest consistency between all these various theories are the themes themselves: gray aliens, government coverups, political denial of UFOs, ect.

That is just like Christianity having a common theme (Jesus Christ and God the Father), while having a huge myriad implementations of that theme, hence so many denominations and churches which interpret the Holy Bible is so many different ways. The two waves of thought are similar in that regard.

[Jezrith]

Although I am not judging the people themselves, I agree somewhat; however, there are myriad forms of the same fundamental theory (for instance, theories about gray aliens) that are different and incompatible with each other.

When you have an incompatibility between one person's theory and another person's theory, ONE OF THEM IS FALSE.

Such as:

theory #1: gray aliens are cybernetic organisms controlled by distant masters;

and

theory #2: gray aliens are a living species of aliens that like to use genetic manipulation.

Conspiracy communities cannot reconcile both, and so they tend to accept both as true. But they are two incompatible theories. Which one is true? Nobody can disprove or prove either one, and so this falls into the realm of inconsistency.

Now you look at both human abductees who were told this by gray aliens or whatever alien race told them that. Are the aliens lying? Or is it more likely that the humans are lying?

That's a very good reason to believe that Alien theories are bullshit, but how does that prove something like the NAU is bullshit? Just because someone decides the two are interconnected and puts the theory out, it doesn't make the plans for the NAU bullshit.

I've spent the better part of a decade researching conspiracy theories (check out David Icke, his are by far my favorite they make for a great sci-fi/thriller story). What I found was, while the vast, vast majority are flat out bullshit, every once in a great while though, one or two of them actually turn out to be true.

[wertyn]

walls of text ftl

[hardboiled]

I think you should ask your doctor to up the dosage.

[Ammon777]

That's a very good reason to believe that Alien theories are bullshit, but how does that prove something like the NAU is bullshit? Just because someone decides the two are interconnected and puts the theory out, it doesn't make the plans for the NAU bullshit.
Conspiracy theories are partly based on observational evidence, but not necessarily on facts. What these people say is that the current NAU conspiracy theory involves the removal of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution from the common people when the NAU is formed. Its not only the fact that the NAU exists, its the theories that formed behind it among these people that is backed up entirely by the paranoid fear of an Illuminati that seeks to enslave humanity. Essentially, these guys take a lot real-world observances (not necessarily facts) and combine them into grand conspiracy theories. While some observances might be fact, that doesnt mean that the end result of their puzzle is the complete picture or that it has any relevance in reality at all.

You can collect a shitload of realworld facts and piece them all together to form the worst possible conclusions. Thats what they have done. Just because some pieces of observations are true, does not make the entire picture true.

[Ammon777]

I think you should ask your doctor to up the dosage.
Whats with all the discriminatory comments based on my being schizophrenic? People arent allowed to insult someone based on race here, but you can insult someone based on mental illness? This is bullshit.

/reported to moderation staff.

[BladeSLicer]

You read?

[Jezrith]

You can collect a shitload of realworld facts and piece them all together to form the worst possible conclusions. Thats what they have done. Just because some pieces of observations are true, does not make the entire picture true.


Exactly, that's my point. Just because the entire picture isn't true it doesn't negate the separate pieces.

[Villa]

I wonder how many other people voted 'false' without reading the whole article, just because they like to be daring interwebz heroes.

[Marrik]

you know something funny i learned, speaking of aliens?


did you know that originally, nobody ever described the aliens they claimed to have seen as looking like "grays"? not until Close Encounters Of The 3rd Kind came out.


and ever since, the vast majority of the aliens people claim they see fit the description of "grays".

[Ammon777]

I wonder how many other people voted 'false' without reading the whole article, just because they like to be daring interwebz heroes.

This is why the human race /fails.

[hardboiled]

I wonder how many other people voted 'false' without reading the whole article, just because they like to be daring interwebz heroes.

I'd sig this perfect description of "Forumfall", but I'm too lazy.

[Ammon777]

you know something funny i learned, speaking of aliens?


did you know that originally, nobody ever described the aliens they claimed to have seen as looking like "grays". not until Close Encounters Of The 3rd Kind came out.


and ever since, the vast majority of the aliens people claim they see fit the description of "grays".
Except in the mid-1800s when magician Aleister Crowley supposedly summoned an entity though an inter-dimensional gate. He drew on a piece of paper, Ive seen a photo of the paper, which still exists in some occult circles. The entity had an elongated head, small mouth, thin frail-looking body, and huge eyes, just like the grays. So visual concept has existed for decades, which makes you wrong.

[Ammon777]

I'd sig this perfect description of "Forumfall", but I'm too lazy.
You are the biggest failure I have seen today. Congratulations. Here is a browny button labeled "Me Stupid!"

/hands button to hardboiled.

[Oniloke]

didn't vote, because i've read many of them as well, and seen some things on youtube.... most things are pretty far fetched, other things seem more likely... the thing that's most far fetched is the stories about the reptile people... that's just stupid =P

[Morthor]

Sorry, aliens are not a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy is when two or more people plan to break the law in future.. unless there's some law against aliens I don't know about? Sorry but that was bugging me

[Villa]

you know something funny i learned, speaking of aliens?


did you know that originally, nobody ever described the aliens they claimed to have seen as looking like "grays"? not until Close Encounters Of The 3rd Kind came out.


and ever since, the vast majority of the aliens people claim they see fit the description of "grays".
Did you know that in the movie 'They Live', nobody ever noticed aliens until they donned those special glasses?

SUSPICIOUS?

[Titus Ultor]

Conspiracy theories aren't so much based on misinformation as semi-intentional equivocation and purposeful disbelief.

[Weeking]

What does it matter if they are true or not?

You're supposed to disbelieve them solely because authority states they are false.

Also if they had been more realistic, they would be less entertaining and popular, therefore you're much more likely to hear to extreme ones and extreme 'preachers' are more likely to continue 'preaching'.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Well IMO you gotta sort the bad stuff out from the good stuff.
Conspiracy theories have a bad rap because people don't truly understand the meaning of them.

Some are just wacky theories but the point of a conspiracy theory is that a group of people or some other entity are hiding something or conspiring something.
Beliving in alien life or that aliens have shown themselves to humans isn't really a conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory would be that some humans are hiding the existance of aliens to others.

An other example would be the Iraq war.
It is basicly a fact that Iraqs oil is being sucked out from the country by greedy corporations.One could even state that there was such an intention from the start of the war.

The conspiracy theory is instead if all the other reasons to go to war were fabricated so that one would be able to suck out oil from Iraq and nothing (or little) ellse.
It would for example not have been a conspiracy if the reasons to go to war were truly belived to be true while still wishing to exploit the oil wealth.

I would also like to remind everyone of how many conspiracies have really been attempted. World War 2 was a conspiracy as Hitler never intended longlasting peace with Europes nations and as he tricked the German people in beliving that Poland attacked first. He or one of his generals once states that it was only important to trick the German people into beliving for a short instance that Poland indeed did attack first. This since the victors of the war would write history and ofcourse they belived that Germany would be victorious and would write history with no room for "investigations" into the real reasons of the Battle for Poland.


The Reichstag fire, quite similiar to the September 11 attacks was also a conspiracy.
Enron aswell.

An other less known conspiracy is the "Rome Club/Masonic" conspiracy in Rome that in the 90's was uncovered by Police which led to the banning of secret organisations in Italy for a long time.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/p2_lodge.htm


So conspiracies are very real.
How many are real or not one can never know.