Article on psychology of online communities

[Spk]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20236

Though not called out by name, the issue of Munchausen by Internet was the first tackled. This scenario is one where a community member (in or out of an MMO) fakes an illness or even a death -- of themselves or a loved one

According to Rodberg, there are four primary impetuses that drive griefing: for the humor, the attention, the rise out of the victim, and those who join into a group griefing session -- what she called the "playground mentality".

The psychologists offered two interesting insights. Dr. Pennebaker notes that in a game scenario, "It's possible that in the PVP environment, that bullying is a successful strategy for winning."

[Lindorn]

Ah, good old psychology reports based on nothing but the most mainstream tired framework of an MMORPG.

They sort of touched on one fact (that griefing can be a means to win), but they refer to it as "bullying" which is just retarded. The fact that the only context in which they can understand griefing is a bully beating up on a nerdy kid with glasses just really shows their ignorance about what an MMORPG can be.

In a dynamic world scenario where the players drive forward the story, griefing is an important tool for guilds and empires to use to crush the will of their opponents.

[Spk]

Yeah this article isn't anything groundbreaking, and most people who have been in some kind of online communities have experienced some, if not all of the cases mentioned in this article.

I simply found it amusing to have actual psychologists try to analyze the crap out of gankers, griefers and attention whores :D

[Mulambo]

Yeah this article isn't anything groundbreaking, and most people who have been in some kind of online communities have experienced some, if not all of the cases mentioned in this article.

I simply found it amusing to have actual psychologists try to analyze the crap out of gankers, griefers and attention whores :D

it's how they get grants so that their grinding can be government-funded. It's a few steps below the chinese gold farmers imo. At least the chinese are helping their economy.

[Lindorn]

it's how they get grants so that their grinding can be government-funded. It's a few steps below the chinese gold farmers imo. At least the chinese are helping their economy.

lol

[Beorg]

Yeah this article isn't anything groundbreaking, and most people who have been in some kind of online communities have experienced some, if not all of the cases mentioned in this article.

I simply found it amusing to have actual psychologists try to analyze the crap out of gankers, griefers and attention whores :D


Same. I used to play a flight simulator with a friend of mine about four years ago, and to get more publicity, he faked his own death. When I got back onto their forums and read the post his "mom" made, I was horrified. The only flaw in his plan was that he spelled with the same abbreviations and mispellings as he normally did. Not many people noticed, but after I called him up and heard him on the phone, I knew. We are no longer friends. I think it's a stupid and positively idiotic thing to do.

[Shamoke]

Same. I used to play a flight simulator with a friend of mine about four years ago, and to get more publicity, he faked his own death. When I got back onto their forums and read the post his "mom" made, I was horrified. The only flaw in his plan was that he spelled with the same abbreviations and mispellings as he normally did. Not many people noticed, but after I called him up and heard him on the phone, I knew. We are no longer friends. I think it's a stupid and positively idiotic thing to do.

So you were angry that he said he was dead. I am assuming you would miss him because he would be gone and dead and all that. Then you go on and stop being friends with him which means you don't talk to him or pretty much assume he doesn't exist anymore. So now he really is dead to you.

[Incanam]

According to Rodberg, there are four primary impetuses that drive griefing: for the lulz, the attention, the rise out of the victim, and those who join into a group griefing session -- what she called the "playground mentality".
Fix't

[Temet nosce]

Yep. It's all anonymity's fault. It isn't that people already have some kind of tendency towards these things and that anonymity simply makes it easier for them to act out these tendencies.

One of the crappiest articles I've seen on the subject.

[Titus Ultor]

Griefers are bullies, plain and simple.

I know it's hard to admit, guys, but when you intentionally kill someone repeatedly just for their reaction or to make them quit the game, that's bullying -- even if it's done to "win".

The article is bullshit, don't get me wrong, but so are you guys.

[Gloomrender]

It's the general nature of psychology/psychologists to not really have appropriate and duly descriptive names for things, because psychology's primary theories aren't all encompassing, and they're forced to make up names as they go along, since It's uncharted territory. But this is still functionally accurate, even if It's naming scheme is silly.

[jonyak]

you know something hits close to home when people try to discredit it for no reason.

[hardboiled]

The thread title already set on my bullshit alarms and indeed as I read the article it once again it proved that people should just stay as far away as possible from these "psychologists" bullshit.
Sadly, this sort of "society" and "social environments" useless bullshit studies you simply can't avoid in the academic world these days and its starting to get annoying.

[Lindorn]

Griefers are bullies, plain and simple.

I know it's hard to admit, guys, but when you intentionally kill someone repeatedly just for their reaction or to make them quit the game, that's bullying -- even if it's done to "win".

You are flat out wrong. In Shadowbane one of our nastiest tactics was to split the guild up into groups and have them each camp one of the ruins (You spawned at a random ruin when you died). We'd kill our enemies over and over and over sending them from ruins to town, town to ruins, until all of their shit would break or they would log off. It was a devastating tactic and demoralized the enemy like nothing else in the game, but it worked. It ended the war and it brought people to the negotiating table faster than anything else.

Guess what started to happen after a few examples were made? People just started giving us what we wanted without us even asking for it. that's strategy my friend. It's psychological warfare. While I understand what most people think of as "griefing" (I too don't appreciate doing something for the sole reason of causing someone else pain. I think it's juvenile), when used as a tactic in a player versus player conflict it is 100% acceptable and should be taken as such.

[Gloomrender]

You are flat out wrong. In Shadowbane one of our nastiest tactics was to split the guild up into groups and have them each camp one of the ruins (You spawned at a random ruin when you died). We'd kill our enemies over and over and over sending them from ruins to town, town to ruins, until all of their shit would break or they would log off. It was a devastating tactic and demoralized the enemy like nothing else in the game, but it worked. It ended the war and it brought people to the negotiating table faster than anything else.

Guess what started to happen after a few examples were made? People just started giving us what we wanted without us even asking for it. that's strategy my friend. It's psychological warfare. While I understand what most people think of as "griefing" (I too don't appreciate doing something for the sole reason of causing someone else pain. I think it's juvenile), when used as a tactic in a player versus player conflict it is 100% acceptable and should be taken as such.

Why should bullying tactics be 'unacceptable'?

[Damwa]

You are flat out wrong. In Shadowbane one of our nastiest tactics was to split the guild up into groups and have them each camp one of the ruins (You spawned at a random ruin when you died). We'd kill our enemies over and over and over sending them from ruins to town, town to ruins, until all of their shit would break or they would log off. It was a devastating tactic and demoralized the enemy like nothing else in the game, but it worked. It ended the war and it brought people to the negotiating table faster than anything else.

Guess what started to happen after a few examples were made? People just started giving us what we wanted without us even asking for it. that's strategy my friend. It's psychological warfare. While I understand what most people think of as "griefing" (I too don't appreciate doing something for the sole reason of causing someone else pain. I think it's juvenile), when used as a tactic in a player versus player conflict it is 100% acceptable and should be taken as such.

But isn't bullying and "griefing" in RL a strategy, based on the exact same mechanics and rationale as you are describing above? Isn't that the reason why people bully and "grief" in RL in general? To establish dominance and to get what they want without having to ask, or fight for it?

[Salo]

People do things for many different reasons and that includes 'griefing' (howevr youchoose to define that term). Some people are just bastards. Sometimes it's strategically advantageous to grief enemy combatants.

Sometimes griefers are bastards and it's strategically advantageous for them to be so.

I've only engaged in 'griefing' a handful of times. Mostly that was to do with guild politics. A rival guild griefed our crafters and new recruits, we griefed theirs. Kind of difficult to say for sure who started it. Obviously the official line was that they started it :P I suspect it was actually our lot.

Another bout was in defense of a friendly RP guild we'd adopted because of cross guild friendships. They were getting griefed quite badly, so we went and griefed their enemy.

That's not bullying. It's war and it's community policing. I am sure they had their own perfectly good reasons for griefing. Even if that reason was because they found it fun.

[Lindorn]

But isn't bullying and "griefing" in RL a strategy, based on the exact same mechanics and rationale as you are describing above? Isn't that the reason why people bully and "grief" in RL in general? To establish dominance and to get what they want without having to ask, or fight for it?

I think you could argue that point. But I think in most situations the bully has nothing to gain in the way of "tactics" other than just making himself feel better (self confidence). The difference between real life and a game is that a game has conditions for victory and unless you plan to create false mental boundaries for yourself that hold you back from achieving it, you should do everything in your power to win. That is the nature of a game.

[shnedit]

wow, this is a retarded discussion.

[Bamboopanda]

The thread title already set on my bullshit alarms and indeed as I read the article it once again it proved that people should just stay as far away as possible from these "psychologists" bullshit.
Sadly, this sort of "society" and "social environments" useless bullshit studies you simply can't avoid in the academic world these days and its starting to get annoying.

Thats because its cheap, easy and nobody can every fully call you out most times. It's nothing more than politic speak for what pass's as science in America these days. Makes me weep.

[Salo]

Just as an additional thought: I think it's brilliant that a little roleplay guild, when faced with an aggressive PK guild trying to drive them out of their valley, their response was to seek the help of another PK guild to fight on their behalf.

That's the beauty of ffa and the ability to 'grief', it forces real politik.

[Damwa]

I think you could argue that point. But I think in most situations the bully has nothing to gain in the way of "tactics" other than just making himself feel better (self confidence). The difference between real life and a game is that a game has conditions for victory and unless you plan to create false mental boundaries for yourself that hold you back from achieving it, you should do everything in your power to win. That is the nature of a game.

Well, I am just saying; the pattern of behaviour that is "bullying" or "griefing" is really something that is ingrained in social dynamics. We don't "think it up", we already "know" it before we are old enough to tie our shoelaces. There may be a difference between using it deliberately in one context, or unconsciously in another, but basically; it is "who we are".

[Gloomrender]

Those who bully are bullies. That simple. There are various reasons why people bully which distinguish one bully from another type of bully, but bullying is bullying. I don't understand why it would be unacceptable or inappropriate, It's a function that's built into the type of games we play.

[Krush]

To illustrate these points, Rodberg says, "Once a community member has shown that they can get their buttons pushed" they become a frequent victim. Echoing that, Hewitt says, "Often times you find that the person who is being griefed is really creating a circumstance where they're inviting that behavior" by being "dramatic" or "histrionic". According to Hewitt, "these people can be harder to reach" than the griefers. "It's a challenge to define who is causing the problem... but how do you say 'Calm down and don't react in this way?'"

I like how it's the person who's getting grief to blame. lol

[Lioness]

Rodberg

Lulz.

...the rise out of the victim...

Double Lulz.

"...bullying is a successful strategy for winning."

B....Bullying?!?! OMG NOOOOO!

I sure hope there's no bullying in Darkfall! :rolleyes:

[Froed]

I'm taking a Soc class on equality and all the horrible stuff I am doing to minorities (as a young, white, heterosexual, middle-class male) and one of my readings comes to mind. Essentially, it was about how sociologists/etc. have looked at african-american culture and how ridiculous those sociologists are. They talk about "rituals" and all sorts of explanations for junk that really stretch the truth. Now I haven't read the article the OP linked, but I feel like it (and many others) trying to describe "gamer culture" fall short of the truth, because they're trying to apply serious, structured logic to draw conclusions about something that is built around having "fun". I could just be talking out of my rear, but what do you guys think? Have any psychological/sociological/etc. articles rung true to you, or are they making really big, false conclusions?

[Attau]

Blah blah blah psychologists are quacks.

Oh and I like bullying kids on the internetz.

[Taroth]

The difference between real life and a game is that a game has conditions for victory and unless you plan to create false mental boundaries for yourself that hold you back from achieving it, you should do everything in your power to win. That is the nature of a game.

Thank you for this.

I'll laugh if you are a roleplayer though. The irony would be too sweet to say in words.

[Lioness]

The difference between real life and a game is that a game has conditions for victory and unless you plan to create false mental boundaries for yourself that hold you back from achieving it, you should do everything in your power to win. That is the nature of a game.

Not true! Some of us are dragged into games by our friends and boyfriend. :rolleyes:

[Honest Bill]

because they're trying to apply serious, structured logic to draw conclusions about something that is built around having "fun".

Indeed, i couldn't agree more. Thes simple phrase 'It's just a game' springs immediately to mind. I mean if you can't handle someone 'griefing' you in a game, then it's quite possible that you are too emotionally fragile to be playing it at all. And i suspect that real life will be a lot tougher for you than the game

[Gloomrender]

Indeed, i couldn't agree more. Thes simple phrase 'It's just a game' springs immediately to mind. I mean if you can't handle someone 'griefing' you in a game, then it's quite possible that you are too emotionally fragile to be playing it at all. And i suspect that real life will be a lot tougher for you than the game

Most gamers are escapists.

[Honest Bill]

Well i don't know if that's true, but let's suppose it is. There are plenty of SP games that you can play where you can escape without having to deal with real people

[Gloomrender]

Well i don't know if that's true, but let's suppose it is. There are plenty of SP games that you can play where you can escape without having to deal with real people

Most SP games don't have the scope of an MMO.

[Mippoose]

That guy is right... I fucking love attention.

Will somebody please sig me so I can splooge each and every time I see it?

[Honest Bill]

Most SP games don't have the scope of an MMO.

That is true, but if they can't use them to escape real life, and are still getting bullied, then i would assume that SP games would be more appealing

[Gloomrender]

That is true, but if they can't use them to escape real life, and are still getting bullied, then i would assume that SP games would be more appealing

They don't expect to be bullied in the first place.

[Honest Bill]

They don't expect to be bullied in the first place.

I can appreciate that, but they are by no means forced to keep playing once they realize that it's a little too much like real social dynamics for them

[Kamakizz]

I grief because I'm an asshole. I also grief because I was abused as a child by being locked in a closet, clubbed frequently, and have no friends.

[Gloomrender]

I can appreciate that, but they are by no means forced to keep playing once they realize that it's a little too much like real social dynamics for them

Well if they get into an MMO, and get bullied constantly, they would probably eventually find a non pvp server, or leave the game. But prior to that actually happening, they wouldn't have any reason not to select an MMO to play over a SP game.

[Honest Bill]

Well if they get into an MMO, and get bullied constantly, they would probably eventually find a non pvp server, or leave the game. But prior to that actually happening, they wouldn't have any reason not to select an MMO to play over a SP game.

Yeah well i guess that's true. But i also think it might help if they gave out a little manual with the game, such as a guide which helps these people deal with the online community. They must be made to understand that it isn't real life, it's just a game where people are playing characters, It makes no sense to take it to heart, because they're not actually picking on you, they're just picking on any old random person, and by reacting, you are clearly marking yourself for that treatment, over the guy next to you who just takes it all with a 'pinch of salt'

[Gloomrender]

I suppose that would be prudent especially in a PVP centric game like Darkfall.

But then again the gaming company probably finds it bad business to advertise the idea that you could have unpleasant experiences in their game world. They want you to think that everything will be fun in their game.

[Honest Bill]

I suppose that would be prudent especially in a PVP centric game like Darkfall.

But then again the gaming company probably finds it bad business to advertise the idea that you could have unpleasant experiences in their game world. They want you to think that everything will be fun in their game.

That's a good point, but it might be a good idea in so far as covering themselves when it comes to litigation. I don't know if any have been sued yet, but it's only a matter of time

[Gloomrender]

That's a good point, but it might be a good idea in so far as covering themselves when it comes to litigation. I don't know if any have been sued yet, but it's only a matter of time

I'm not positive, but I believe the EULA of most MMO's prevents this from happening.

[Honest Bill]

Oh i see, well i guess they would have it covered somewhere. It wouldn't be like them to leave themselves open. However it's still an issue. I think that anyone who is truly affected by in game griefing, has some serious issues which are far more deeply rooted than any in game precaution could ever resolve.

[Gloomrender]

Oh i see, well i guess they would have it covered somewhere. It wouldn't be like them to leave themselves open. However it's still an issue. I think that anyone who is truly affected by in game griefing, has some serious issues which are far more deeply rooted than any in game precaution could ever resolve.

I don't know about that. Depends on the game. While they shouldn't get suicidal or anything extreme like that in response to it, some true angst can sometimes be a reasonable reaction. In some games you can really grief people hard and make their experience a slice of hell. I've been on both sides of it, giving it and receiving it, in my time.

[Honest Bill]

I don't know about that. Depends on the game. While they shouldn't get suicidal or anything extreme like that in response to it, some true angst can sometimes be a reasonable reaction. In some games you can really grief people hard and make their experience a slice of hell. I've been on both sides of it, giving it and receiving it, in my time.

But what can you really do that would be so bad? I've never experienced it on either side, so i must confess to my ignorance on the subject

[Gloomrender]

But what can you really do that would be so bad? I've never experienced it on either side, so i must confess to my ignorance on the subject

Well, as I said it depends greatly on the game and circumstances. In many games you could theoretically make logging in with a specific character completely pointless...because you either stalk them, and kill them where ever they go in the game, endlessly. Or you repeatedly kill them at either/both of one, or two of their re-spawn points, (where they come back to life after dieing) endlessly.

[Titus Ultor]

I think you could argue that point. But I think in most situations the bully has nothing to gain in the way of "tactics" other than just making himself feel better (self confidence). The difference between real life and a game is that a game has conditions for victory and unless you plan to create false mental boundaries for yourself that hold you back from achieving it, you should do everything in your power to win. That is the nature of a game.

Not really. The nature of the game is to follow a set of mutually agreed standards to compete to first achieve a goal or to out-do the other in a competition.

MMOs are not games in the traditional sense, anyway, particularly ones like Shadowbane and so forth without instances or a lot of PvE storyline. Rarely does such a MMO declare one side "winners" and the other "losers" -- in a sense, each individual war is a game within an MMO.

Griefing someone into quitting in one of these individual wars is akin to playing a pick-up game of soccer (without refs, therefore) and knocking your opposing team to the ground and kicking the shit out of him until he quits. Sure, you've "won" the game in a technical sense, but you're still a dick, a bully, and you haven't actually won the game.

[Gloomrender]

Not really. The nature of the game is to follow a set of mutually agreed standards to compete to first achieve a goal or to out-do the other in a competition.

MMOs are not games in the traditional sense, anyway, particularly ones like Shadowbane and so forth without instances or a lot of PvE storyline. Rarely does such a MMO declare one side "winners" and the other "losers" -- in a sense, each individual war is a game within an MMO.

Griefing someone into quitting in one of these individual wars is akin to playing a pick-up game of soccer (without refs, therefore) and knocking your opposing team to the ground and kicking the shit out of him until he quits. Sure, you've "won" the game in a technical sense, but you're still a dick, a bully, and you haven't actually won the game.

Someone got pwnt.

[Lethn]

Ah, good old psychology reports based on nothing but the most mainstream tired framework of an MMORPG.

/thread for fucks sake

Seriously as opposed to actual and genuine psychological conditions there is no real way you can group or stereotype normal people based on them playing MMORPGs and the people who usually act erratically have in cases often been proven to have some sort of mental disorder to begin with to cause them to act in such away with gaming really just being the catilyst ( did I even spell that right? ).

Seriously this is just another case of the media trying to shit all over the Games Industry without any real proof to back themselves up, it's like with the whole Mass Effect incident, Lawrence Cooper and Fox news made themselves look like idiots without the EA guy even needing to really say anything because they hadn't even played the game and researched what gamers were saying properly and it stuck out like shit in a treasury room.

Idiots like this are just trying to hop on the flame train and get a reputation, fortunately because they know fuck all about the Games Industry they're just going to get reputations for being dicks.

It's like with bullying in RL we KNOW the reasons people do it already, quite often it's just the case that these people are simply assholes and it's exactly the same in MMORPGs, you don't need a fucking 'psychological report' to be able to tell that.

[Salo]

Have any psychological/sociological/etc. articles rung true to you, or are they making really big, false conclusions?

Mmm. Bit of both really. I've read some interesting sociological (ludological?) articles looking at play patterns and player choices.

Have you checked out the Daedalus Project? That's really interesting.