balanced sides?

[Masumatek]

I don't read these boards constantly so you'll forgive me if there has been a recent topic on this...

I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen with the different races and alliances in the game. Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans are together. Orcs and Mahirim are together. And Alfar are alone. Most likely, the Human alliance will have many the most members, the Orc alliance the next most, and Alfar the least. Assuming equal player skill on all sides, what will "balance" the powers in the world? What's preventing the Human alliance from eventually overpowering the Orc alliance, and everyone from annhilating the Alfar. That's my guess of what will eventually happen, unless the Alfar have an uneasy peace with the Orcs and Mahirim and focus on the Human alliance...

Not that I'd want "balance" necessarily. The reason I'm going to be Alfar is because it will be more challenging.

What are your thoughts on this?

[James-Noth]

its quality, not quantity

[Thorpeyrox]

its quality, not quantity

This but the opposite way round, if you do find yourself as an Alfar hiding in your own lands you have to find elsewhere to exist. Law of the jungle.

[Selzi]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Also, you might want to look at the race polls for a little reference. Alfar and Mahirim are usually the most voted for races to play. Alfar are the perfect choice for all PvP guilds since they can kill 5 out of the 6 races of Agon without taking an alignment hit. Pretty much all Alfar clans are highly skilled MMO veterans.

[James-Noth]

This but the opposite way round, if you do find yourself as an Alfar hiding in your own lands you have to find elsewhere to exist. Law of the jungle.

law of the jungle:
big things eat little things
of course, quantity is important, but quality is more

[Level9-Fiss]

its quality, not quantity
thats assuming all of the better guilds play particular sides that are not overpopulated.

[acadiancrusader]

ARAC alliances. there is your balance. people are foolish if they think that after a year of playing this game that all the alliances will be with the so called friendly races.

expect to see some unholy alliances eventually form and potentially dominate.

[Drizden!]

I don't read these boards constantly so you'll forgive me if there has been a recent topic on this...

I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen with the different races and alliances in the game. Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans are together. Orcs and Mahirim are together. And Alfar are alone. Most likely, the Human alliance will have many the most members, the Orc alliance the next most, and Alfar the least. Assuming equal player skill on all sides, what will "balance" the powers in the world? What's preventing the Human alliance from eventually overpowering the Orc alliance, and everyone from annhilating the Alfar. That's my guess of what will eventually happen, unless the Alfar have an uneasy peace with the Orcs and Mahirim and focus on the Human alliance...

Not that I'd want "balance" necessarily. The reason I'm going to be Alfar is because it will be more challenging.

What are your thoughts on this?

The problem in your formula will be assuming equal skill. I have noticed in many MMOs new people tend to play human/dwarf/elf races because most people want to start off being the "good" guys naturally these are also the least skilled.

The orc/mahirim faction will probably be your more skilled players so hopefully the skill will help balance the numbers.

As far as the alfar go they are perfect for your elitests. I image quite a few people are excited about that race. You probably wont hear that faction wine much because the type of people who pick it expect to be vs the world. I would be Alfar if my guildmates didn't decide to go Mahirim but that can't be helped.

[James-Noth]

things tend to work out as the should in this unerverse...
hopfully its the same in the DArkfall 1

[DaveDFF]

I don't read these boards constantly so you'll forgive me if there has been a recent topic on this...

I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen with the different races and alliances in the game. Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans are together. Orcs and Mahirim are together. And Alfar are alone. Most likely, the Human alliance will have many the most members, the Orc alliance the next most, and Alfar the least. Assuming equal player skill on all sides, what will "balance" the powers in the world? What's preventing the Human alliance from eventually overpowering the Orc alliance, and everyone from annhilating the Alfar. That's my guess of what will eventually happen, unless the Alfar have an uneasy peace with the Orcs and Mahirim and focus on the Human alliance...

Not that I'd want "balance" necessarily. The reason I'm going to be Alfar is because it will be more challenging.

What are your thoughts on this?

There was another post yesterday that explained clan city sites and how it would pan out exactly what you are asking if only i could find the thread
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=67022

[Woopya]

there could be a problem. But unlike other games 1 where you have border zones, 1 alliance having an advatage doesnt mean the entire world will be dominated by 1 side.

This game is different for a few reasons:

The simple truth is you cant use hit and run tactics, the preference of the underdog, in a borderzone/rvr type game. You only have so many objectives and harassing them does no good.

On the other hand,

The world of Agon is HUGE and is in itself 1 entire warzone with hundreds of objectives some big like cities, and some small like mines or even farms. All matter. So truthfully, you can be the underdog and hide and strike small underprotected targets and actually make a difference and be effective. Burning down farms of your enemies means less reagents for thier casters. And invading mines means less ore for thier crafters. It all matters.

Lastly, you use the example of the Alfar being a lone race on its allliance and suggest that will be an underdog. While I agree they will pretty much be the smallest alliance we dont know the racial bonuses each side will get. In the dev Q&A they mentioned Alfar are good with xbows. They also suggested the Alfar, being comfortable underground, will have an advantage at night. This implies night vision. Together xbows and night vision are 2 abilities you would expect an of underdog/hit and runner.

[Ruggulkrek]

You know, from my recollection, Dwarves aren't allied with Humans and Elves. They're neutral. People just think they're allied because of Lord Of The Rings I think. I could be wrong but I'm almost positive that I read they're neutral to everyone except for their racial enemy (Orcs I think. But I suppose since they're allied with Mahirim, maybe they don't like those either, but I think they're still impartial to Alfar aren't they? Even if, again, I think they're only Neutral to Humans and Elves).


Anyway, yeah, obviously everyone wont be equal in skill, but for the sake of assuming for the thread like you requested, it wont really matter. You can still only spawn so many people at a stone, so as long as one side has at least enough to people to make even spawn numbers at the places the more populated races choose to attack, it'll still be an equal fight anyway.


Oh, and don't forget that the Racial Alliances wont matter, as the penalty is negated by clan warfare. If a Human clan goes to war with an Elf clan, neither one takes an alignment hit. You're going to see Humans and Elves fighting over resources and territory all of the time. The only real advantage is going to be being able to walk into each other's towns without dieing. That and you'd be less inclined to attack a lone stranger of an allied race, but if he's carrying good gear he'll be killed anyway, and the killer will just make up for the alignment hit by killing 3 of an enemy faction.

I think the "allied" races are going to be at war with each other almost as much as they are with natural racial enemies due to close proximity coupled with the need for resources.

[Johaocarl]

IMHO, the opener summarized the situation nicelly.

We problably will see a huge alliance forming between dwarves, mirdain and humans guilds. That will give them the advantage of numbers, but I am not sure if the players are ready for use that advantage. It is too possible, that the dwarves/mirdain/human alliance fragment at small ones that can be easier to win, one by one. Too many people, too many desires, it easy to start an internal quarrell.

With relation to orcs/mahirim alliance, their guilds are currently, pre-beta, making a huge alliance (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=64749). They really don't have other option, too many humans for fight, it is better start to organize a super alliance sooner possible.

The afar are at the worse situation, everyone hate them and they hate everyone. However, maybe that makes the afar players give the most. You will need be a very stupid afar for attack other afar players and lose alignment with the other afar, because there are no other place where you can live. So, I believe the afar guilds will soon make an aliance and we will see few unconsented PvP killing between the afar. They really have no option. IMHO, it is possible that Nagast region can be the safer place for play PvE without fear of surpirse PvP attacks from players from other races. Well, they can be evil, but they aren't stupid.

If they make that, their economy can prosper faster, less PvP between afar, more safe harvesting and crafting, less resources used for fight other afar. All the resources will be used for fight the otehr races.

However, the afar can be lucky, humans and mirdain can be forced to give more attention to the north, where the orcs and mahirim huge alliance certainly will make a fierce war.

With the human and mirdain resources and troops going for a war at north, the afar can have some time for prepare and launch some big conquest plan. If they are smart and make a temporary alliance with orcs and mahirim, the conflict can be well equilibred.

[FreeBooteR]

I think the scales will tip back and forth constantly. Also i think there will be much infighting within alliances, not to mention races. Should be nice and chaotic :sly:

[Oxim Oresi]

It is most likely arleady based on wrong assumptions, if you translate races into (other game's) faction. The race alliances will be more like guidelines and be ignored by the average player.

[Rhynn]

The racial hatreds have all but been removed. ARAC guilds will be common. Pay no attention to race, the devs aren't.

[harvy]

The problem in your formula will be assuming equal skill. I have noticed in many MMOs new people tend to play human/dwarf/elf races because most people want to start off being the "good" guys naturally these are also the least skilled.

The orc/mahirim faction will probably be your more skilled players so hopefully the skill will help balance the numbers.

As far as the alfar go they are perfect for your elitests. I image quite a few people are excited about that race. You probably wont hear that faction wine much because the type of people who pick it expect to be vs the world. I would be Alfar if my guildmates didn't decide to go Mahirim but that can't be helped.

I bet the bad ass experienced players would choose Alfar

[Rhinocrash]

There is always that human/elf zerg. But they are mindless sheep kiddies. I'm sure most if not all of the alfar will be hardcore pvp enthusiasts and they will beat the zerg into the ground with strategy/teamwork

beat me to it harvey

[Dullard]

Nothing is ever going to be completely even. To want it so is the most carebear carebearliness that ever cared. Someone's always going to have some advantage over you. Adapt or GTFO.

[natris]

The racial alliances are only spice to inter-clan relations and are there mainly so that loners have targets to kill without getting alignment hit. From power block point of view they are not really relevant. Yes, allying with other clan from the power block is easier but not the only option.

[JackyD]

Who cares about balanced sides? The more enemies you have to fight the merrier! :sly:

[Stax]

I did not read every post on this thread. But I want to mention that not every human will join other humans to fight any perticular race. You can not count on someone being your friend simply cause they share the same race. People of the same race will slay you and take your 'undies' just for shits-n-giggles.

[Johaocarl]

I did not read every post on this thread. But I want to mention that not every human will join other humans to fight any perticular race. You can not count on someone being your friend simply cause they share the same race. People of the same race will slay you and take your 'undies' just for shits-n-giggles.

Well, there is the alignment penalty if you kill someone from your race unconsented. It is a hard hit at your alignment with your race and a few PKiling without consent will make you KOS to the NPC guards at your race capital. And your spawn point will be moved from the rock inside the capital to the chaotic rock at teh middle of the continent.

That will not be a so serious problem for humans, dwarves and elves. They are friendly or at least neutral to one another, a player of one of these races can simply go make business and use as base the capital of other these races... while he too not lose faction with that races (killing players from that races, for example).

However, for afar, lose faction with their race is a serious problem. Everyone hates afar, so the only place where afar can trade, buy new gear (gear degrades, remember), start quests, get prestige classes and learn new abilities is at Nagast.

With relation to guilds, the NPCs from one race will be KOS to the enemy races. So, if a guild build a castle, the NPCs there that defend the castle will be KOS to any player from the wrong race. So, afar will have a too much hard time if enter a guild controlled by any other race. And any other race will have a very hard time entering an afar guild. The same will happen to an orc/mahirim entering a dwarf/mirdain/human guild and vice-versa.

Remember, items degrade. So, eventually players will learn it is easier play allied to guilds where they can go to the player city for trade than enter a guild where the guards will try to kill you on sight.

The racial hatreds have all but been removed. ARAC guilds will be common. Pay no attention to race, the devs aren't.


Rhynn, where you get that information? Reading the devs quotes I just saw the devs intend that the racial hatred will be fundamental for the game mechanics and for PvP. A player lose faction when killing other player from same race unconsented and regain that faction (slowlly) when kill players from the enemy races (that is an incentive for the players go to kill players from other races). And the faction with enemy races cannot be changed, ever will be KOS. That will be a serious problem for players entering guilds from enemy races, the NPC guards ever will attack them.

But I want to mention that not every human will join other humans to fight any perticular race. You can not count on someone being your friend simply cause they share the same race. People of the same race will slay you and take your 'undies' just for shits-n-giggles.

Yes, that is true, but there are consequences and it is good to know the consequences soon. The players lose faction with their race faster than they can regain it.

While to be KOS to their race cannot be a serious problem with humans, because they can go live with the dwarves or the mirdain, that will be a more serious problem for afar, that have no friends.

I really think that the human/dwarf/mirdain big alliance will break or never be made, because these races have more options where to live or they can have guilds that simply prefer to attack the allied races. Greed will play a role there, we will see guild tempted to attack guilds from allied race for control territory. So, how they solve that, if the alliance guilds destroy the rebel guilds or if the alliance simply broke and it is gone, we will see.

But guilds made by humans/dwarf/mirdain will be frequent. And too guilds made by orcs and mahirim.

Read a few the guild section on the forum. A big orc/mahirim alliance is being made before the game starts (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=64749). Other guilds are inviting players from specific races just for make the racial war. IMHO, that guilds will be the big players at PvP, because that system of alliances will make them a lot stronger. And they know it.

[Rhynn]

Rhynn, where you get that information? Reading the devs quotes I just saw the devs intend that the racial hatred will be fundamental for the game mechanics and for PvP. A player lose faction when killing other player from same race unconsented and regain that faction (slowlly) when kill players from the enemy races (that is an incentive for the players go to kill players from other races). And the faction with enemy races cannot be changed, ever will be KOS. That will be a serious problem for players entering guilds from enemy races, the NPC guards ever will attack them.

I was referring more towards the devs changes in stance regarding allowing all races into a clan, and having that clan's guards and npc's, whether they be human or alfar, act agreeable and hospitable to all members of the clan, regardless of race. I never liked that change.

[Johaocarl]

I was referring more towards the devs changes in stance regarding allowing all races into a clan, and having that clan's guards and npc's, whether they be human or alfar, act agreeable and hospitable to all members of the clan, regardless of race. I never liked that change.

Yes, I found it at other thread. They made it because the NPC guards will be based on the region where the guild city is build. They say it is just for give more freedom to the players.

Well, that makes possible to any race live at ARAC players cities. However, the faction problem will continue. If one alfar is member of an ARAC guild and need to kill other alfar for defend their city, she will lose faction.

If that will be important or not will depend how much a player need return to capital cities. I guess quests and new abilites and the prestige classes happens at the capital cities, so everyone need go there sooner or later.

And that go only for the players that are members of the guild. Possibly too to guilds that are allied with that guild. Any other player from teh wrong race will be attacked there.

Anyway, let us see how it works. When the game starts, we will have no player cities built. That will need time and resources. So, IMHO at the first weeks the racial factor will be important.

Well, I guess that alfar guilds will have human mercenaries that will help to pillage and kill the habitants of human villages.

In other terms, that can make balance easier. The orcs/mahirim and alfar guilds can simply contract human/dwarf/miradin mercenaries for fight for them and vice-versa. The problem is that they will lose any faction with their races and they will be more dependable from trade they find at their guild cities.

[Realbigdeal22]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Also, you might want to look at the race polls for a little reference. Alfar and Mahirim are usually the most voted for races to play. Alfar are the perfect choice for all PvP guilds since they can kill 5 out of the 6 races of Agon without taking an alignment hit. Pretty much all Alfar clans are highly skilled MMO veterans.

MMO veterans.:lmao:

You mean counter strike veterans :sly:

[kingpin]

i believe we'll see a Pax Orcana a few weeks after the game launces. our mahirim poodles will help as cannon fodder.

so no the sides won't be balanced as long as orcs exist.

[Nitewolf]

There is always that human/elf zerg. But they are mindless sheep kiddies. I'm sure most if not all of the alfar will be hardcore pvp enthusiasts and they will beat the zerg into the ground with strategy/teamwork


i'm not so sure there, dark elves also tend to attract a lot of those "uh i'm such a badass cause i play the totally evil race"-kiddos.

[Eternalsinner]

I don't read these boards constantly so you'll forgive me if there has been a recent topic on this...

I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen with the different races and alliances in the game. Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans are together. Orcs and Mahirim are together. And Alfar are alone. Most likely, the Human alliance will have many the most members, the Orc alliance the next most, and Alfar the least. Assuming equal player skill on all sides, what will "balance" the powers in the world? What's preventing the Human alliance from eventually overpowering the Orc alliance, and everyone from annhilating the Alfar. That's my guess of what will eventually happen, unless the Alfar have an uneasy peace with the Orcs and Mahirim and focus on the Human alliance...

Not that I'd want "balance" necessarily. The reason I'm going to be Alfar is because it will be more challenging.

What are your thoughts on this?

Well the beauty of DFO is the fact that even if the entire server was nothing but humans, it could be almost the same exact game. You can attack your own race anytime, and if your clan is at war with another clan, even same race, you dont take any alignment hits for killing the opposing clan. so really differnt races are only a minor part of the core design.

[cosimo84]

I don't read these boards constantly so you'll forgive me if there has been a recent topic on this...

I'm curious what everyone thinks will happen with the different races and alliances in the game. Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans are together. Orcs and Mahirim are together. And Alfar are alone. Most likely, the Human alliance will have many the most members, the Orc alliance the next most, and Alfar the least. Assuming equal player skill on all sides, what will "balance" the powers in the world? What's preventing the Human alliance from eventually overpowering the Orc alliance, and everyone from annhilating the Alfar. That's my guess of what will eventually happen, unless the Alfar have an uneasy peace with the Orcs and Mahirim and focus on the Human alliance...

Not that I'd want "balance" necessarily. The reason I'm going to be Alfar is because it will be more challenging.

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm going Alfar too, and I don't want balance. I don't agree with you on the "equal player skill" on all sides though, so that kind of ruins the rest of your premise.

The type of player who only ganks you when he's 10 levels higher, or outnumbers you 5 to 1, is not going to be drawn to playing an Alfar.

Differences = skill in different areas = unbalance = the only way it's fun.

[Erwinor]

I'm going Alfar but I'm worried it's going to be the raiding playground for other races unless terrain or the spawning cap number makes a big difference. If this game succeeds on sales we're gonna see lots of human and mirdain and I think we can't estimate the numbers just by ppl who post here.