No leveling, are you sure?

[RyoHazard]

Skills you choose to use range from 1-100 based on how often you use it. What advantages will you get as you raise this skills?

Perhaps I am miss informed but lets say for example if you use swords, the more you use swords the more accurate and damaging you swings will become.

As I understand it now. That, while nontraditional, still sounds like leveling to a certain degree.

That being sad the idea of no leveling in the traditional sense makes me happy in a certain place. The more I read the more enthusiastic I become.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[Pumpkins]

http://hem.bredband.net/mongobash/DF-FAQ/skillsfaq.htm

[Soulcullers]

There will be no levels. Meaning everyone is pretty much on an even platform. Skill will determine hit and miss factors but from what I can gather even if your an hour into the game you've got a chance against a veteran. Granted, maybe not all too much of a chance. It's skill based. It's an FPS. Some people will be better than others and the "skill" gap will easily be over come by the fact some folks can aim worth a shizzle and others can't :P

No levels is fantastic! Also no classes. Finally I won't be rolling another character every four weeks. I'll just be gathering all the skills muahaha!

[Bronn]

Maxing out skills will make you alot stronger. It's been said that one fully skilled guy is about even to 5? brand new people assuming they all have the same player skill (not character skill).

Also its been said that when you have a maxxed skill there are specialties that come along with maxing a skill.

So no levels no. Just character skill and player skill that decides.

[RyoHazard]

http://hem.bredband.net/mongobash/DF-FAQ/skillsfaq.htm

I liked that FAQ, is there a homepage for that FAQ? I tried back searching it and came up dry.

I ask cause it's quite informative.

[Bronn]

Ryo top of the newcomers discussions page in the stickies couple FAQ sections. One of the best is the Compiled lists by Staats. It is a little repetitive but will fill you in great on Darkfall.

[Brett]

I think the point of having no levels is to stop some people from being absolutely more powerful than others simply based on time invested. While you might be a Grandmaster swordsman, that doesn't also you make you a grandmaster blacksmith. The use of separate skill levels as opposed to an interconnected leveling system tends to encourage players to specialize moreso than you would see in a traditional leveling system.

You might have some guys who have neglected every skill besides Mining and Blacksmithing, and are completely defenseless against anyone they run across. However, they were probably one of the first people on their server to max those skills at considering they were working on two skills when most people were working on many others simultaneously.

Which method is better? Obviously that depends on your playstyle and intended goals. I will probably work on raising all of my skills simultaneously so I'm able to explore and enjoy the entire world. I feel like raising just a couple of skills would leave my character vulnerable in many aspects. Plus, I want to test out a lot of different skills and this should give me a chance to do so.

I imagine some people will level EVERY skill up, and eventually they will run out of skill points. When this happens, they will hone some skills while others fall into disuse. In this way, their skills will become more centralized, some skills will reach max level while most of them will drop to zero. This will probably be the most common leveling scenario, because no one really knows what the skills will be like, making it hard to choose a set of skills and stick with them.

The point is, you won't know walking up to someone if they are the most powerful mage on the server, or some silly kid trying to pick turnips in the forest (hopefully there's a foraging skill). With a leveling system, you are able to guage your relative chance of success based on your level and the level of your opponent. In a skill-based system, this is not the case. It causes people to respect you for the skill you possess, and not the level you've obtained.

In the end game, a skill-based system allows you to change things up at your desire. Let's say you get tired of being a tank mage, all you would have to do is drop the heavy armor skill and take archery instead, then you become something else entirely. Changing just one or two skills will allow you to completely redefine your character's "Class" in the traditional sense.

Essentially, there will be cookie cutter builds just like in any other game. However, the opportunity to mix things up and discover a new powerful build will be greater than in any other game, due to the sheer number of possibilities provided by a skill-based system.

[Syber70]

Also, the nice thing about skill based, is there's no need to watch an experience bar...

If done correctly, I hope, then skill ups are quite random, and you can get two relatively quickly together, or have to wait hours to see one.. Then when you do get one, it's a nice surprise.

[Brett]

Also, the nice thing about skill based, is there's no need to watch an experience bar...

If done correctly, I hope, then skill ups are quite random, and you can get two relatively quickly together, or have to wait hours to see one.. Then when you do get one, it's a nice surprise.

I gotta disagree with you here, Syber. I believe that skill gain should be in a linear relationship with time spent using that skill. If I spend 5 hours practicing my sword, and you spend one hour, I should end up with higher skill.

However, I think that skill gain should also depend on HOW you are using your skills. For example, using your skills in a battle against another player should be better experience than using them to kill sewer rats. If I spend fifteen minutes slaying a dragon, and you spend three hours slaying pack horses, I should end up gaining more skill than you.

In that way, I hope players are rewarded for taking larger risks. After all, the premise of this entire game and really the entire sandbox theory, is risk versus reward. Obviously, there are low risk ways to play the game, but taking the dangerous path should pay off.

[Kahsikmahn]

There will be no levels. Meaning everyone is pretty much on an even platform. Skill will determine hit and miss factors but from what I can gather even if your an hour into the game you've got a chance against a veteran. Granted, maybe not all too much of a chance. It's skill based. It's an FPS. Some people will be better than others and the "skill" gap will easily be over come by the fact some folks can aim worth a shizzle and others can't :P

No levels is fantastic! Also no classes. Finally I won't be rolling another character every four weeks. I'll just be gathering all the skills muahaha!

Actually the skill level will not determine hit and miss factors, they wanted to get rid of the dice rolls, and if your skill level determined your hit and miss factors then that would be a dice roll.

With melee it would basically determine your damage, your hit miss ratio is determined by how well you aim.

with magic it would determine how powerful the spell was and if the spell works or fails. But your hit miss ratio would still be by how well you aim.

Disclaimer: all opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinions, and in no way is it based on reality, since I have never played the game.

[Lucas Buck]

Anyone who's played a skill based MMO will probably tell you that it's very different from leveling. You still have to work to get your skills up, but generally it prevents the carrot-on-a-stick treadmill gameplay. It also gives you more versatility and customization when you build your character.

Imagine leveling a character up to 80 and finding out that he's not very good, or a particular spell of yours gets nerfed? There's nothing you can do to change that other than build another character, which who knows many billions of hours that takes. In a skill based game, you change your skills on the fly. If you find out you don't like swordfighting, you can always drop it for archery.

[Bronn]

Also, the nice thing about skill based, is there's no need to watch an experience bar...

If done correctly, I hope, then skill ups are quite random, and you can get two relatively quickly together, or have to wait hours to see one.. Then when you do get one, it's a nice surprise.


The devs have stated that to get to the mid range of skills will be relatively quick while maxing skills will take quite a while. Which is nice if you want to respec your skills.

Also keep in mind the soft cap and hard cap of skills along with the deterioration (only while online) of skills. Basically you can try to max all 1000 skills in the game but it would be virtually impossible and even harder to keep em maxed.

[Haliit Ferase]

For me, a skill based system adds a lot more realism.

In a level based game, a mage could spend his entire time using fireballs, but when he levels up, suddenly he's also better at his heal spells, although he never used them.

A skill based system allows for a more level playing field I think, while still providing benefits for those who put time and effort into their characters.

[Brett]

all this skill-based talk makes me want to fire up uo for a couple hours rofl. i would love to run around the forest chopping wood and making bows :p

sadly, uo is ruined and there are no longer any worthy servers to play on.

[Soulcullers]

I stand properly corrected. Not sure where my head was when I posted that.

[alfaroverall]

I gotta disagree with you here, Syber. I believe that skill gain should be in a linear relationship with time spent using that skill. If I spend 5 hours practicing my sword, and you spend one hour, I should end up with higher skill.
Even if the time was random, it would be a statistical impossibility for you to get less skill than him after that much time. Say you take a swing every 5 seconds, that's 3600 swings vs. 720 swings. Try running the function RandInt(1,3600) and RandInt(1,720) 50 times, adding the outcome of the first and subtracting the outcome of the second each time. See what happens. I just did and got 71837.

However, I think that skill gain should also depend on HOW you are using your skills. For example, using your skills in a battle against another player should be better experience than using them to kill sewer rats. If I spend fifteen minutes slaying a dragon, and you spend three hours slaying pack horses, I should end up gaining more skill than you.
I think this is pretty much in the game already albeit in a more minor form. Basically, after a while, your skills will pretty much stop going up from attacking enemies that are much weaker than you. I don't know if it's a sliding scale or if it's sudden, though.

In that way, I hope players are rewarded for taking larger risks. After all, the premise of this entire game and really the entire sandbox theory, is risk versus reward. Obviously, there are low risk ways to play the game, but taking the dangerous path should pay off.
I agree, though I think 15 minutes slaying the dragon vs. 3 hours slaying horses might be a bit excessive.

[Uzik]

Skills != Levels


And I think it is supposed to be fairly easy to keep skills at a level where they are usable, but hard to keep them maxed.

[lordpenquin]

This sounds like the runescape "leveling" system to me. There you have about 20 skills that all start at "level" 1 and you get get all of them up to 99 if you invest time in them. You might have a magic skill of 99 but a range skill of 1 while someone else might have a range skill of 99 and a magic skill of 1. What's nice about this system is the elimination of classes. If you want a mage or a fighter or an archer you don't have to roll a new toon and go through the same boring quests three times to level them all up. You just work in that skill area to get there. It's a lot more freedom.

[Caged]

Anyone who's played a skill based MMO will probably tell you that it's very different from leveling. You still have to work to get your skills up, but generally it prevents the carrot-on-a-stick treadmill gameplay. It also gives you more versatility and customization when you build your character.

Imagine leveling a character up to 80 and finding out that he's not very good, or a particular spell of yours gets nerfed? There's nothing you can do to change that other than build another character, which who knows many billions of hours that takes. In a skill based game, you change your skills on the fly. If you find out you don't like swordfighting, you can always drop it for archery.

This is one of the primary aspects of this game that interests me. Games should have evolved by now to this model. I still dont see the logic in leveling a character up just to login and feel like there is nothing left to do.

[Lucas Buck]

This is one of the primary aspects of this game that interests me. Games should have evolved by now to this model. I still dont see the logic in leveling a character up just to login and feel like there is nothing left to do.

Actually they used to be like that, then they devolved into the tired old level system ripped off from D&D. I think that it's great for tabletop character development, but it's just used to create a lengthy grind in MMOs. When you don't have much content for an end-game, a grind is a pretty easy solution.

Darkfall differs from this model in the way that the very first day you log in, you will be playing the end game. It's a sandbox, and you'll be able to start shaping the world around you as soon as you log in. While there are tons of quests and other kinds of traditional content, there will be a never-ending amount of player driven content. Your character development will be based more on what you do to make a dent in the world than how hard you waste your time grinding.

[Brett]

...Your character development will be based more on what you do to make a dent in the world than how hard you waste your time grinding.


epic

*edit*

the significance of this is amazing. instead of being the man behind the keyboard, you are actually brought back to the truest form of gameplay. you are role playing a character. instead of worring that your character reach a certain level and attain x item, you are worried about what YOU do inside the world. you truly become the character, rather than a mere puppeteer.

no longer are your accomplishments based on arbitrary and circumstantial numbers. the object of this game is not to acquire x amounts of epic items and raid end-game dungeons 1, 2, and 3. no, in this game, there is no objective. you are free to make your own story and make your own game. no longer are you playing a complicated version of tic-tac-toe.

games these days have become procedural in nature. you start the game, you jump through the required hoops, then you quit or wait for them to add more hoops to jump through. in darkfall, it's possible that an expansion would have NO effect on you whatsoever, due to the skills you've chosen and the life you've chosen to lead.

some people will say that it's important to be in a powerful guild or to conquer many lands. however, there are a lot of people who don't care about conquering lands and who don't want to be in a guild at all.

only people who've played uo or meridian could really understand...

[fhrafnsson]

it's like earning xp for talent tress rather than excact leveling in a sense. Which is awesome of course :)

[Caged]

Actually they used to be like that, then they devolved into the tired old level system ripped off from D&D.

I wasn't aware of that. Good to see this is getting some traction though. Darkfall has the opportunity here to set a president for the success of future MMO's. If its as successful as I feel its going to be, it will spell trouble for other existing MMO's as well as those in current development that implement this old leveling system as DF will be setting the standard for gameplay.

[DaveDFF]

It is all the same in reality just more granular. People will grind skills when they respec...(To level that skill up, increase it ... whatever you wish to call it) there will be no waiting around for most people they will wan't their skill at the soft cap minimum.

The scope of skill based and the sandbox nature, allows for a lot of free content generated (PVP) and better end game opportunity DFO will be fun but in reality is just full of tried and tested features we have all seen before.

The key thing here is that all these features are seamlessly integrated and provide for good gameplay.

[Htieknosnaws]

ultimatley
skill>level

[Lucas Buck]

epic

*edit*

the significance of this is amazing. instead of being the man behind the keyboard, you are actually brought back to the truest form of gameplay. you are role playing a character. instead of worring that your character reach a certain level and attain x item, you are worried about what YOU do inside the world. you truly become the character, rather than a mere puppeteer.

no longer are your accomplishments based on arbitrary and circumstantial numbers. the object of this game is not to acquire x amounts of epic items and raid end-game dungeons 1, 2, and 3. no, in this game, there is no objective. you are free to make your own story and make your own game. no longer are you playing a complicated version of tic-tac-toe.

games these days have become procedural in nature. you start the game, you jump through the required hoops, then you quit or wait for them to add more hoops to jump through. in darkfall, it's possible that an expansion would have NO effect on you whatsoever, due to the skills you've chosen and the life you've chosen to lead.

some people will say that it's important to be in a powerful guild or to conquer many lands. however, there are a lot of people who don't care about conquering lands and who don't want to be in a guild at all.

only people who've played uo or meridian could really understand...

Your post reminded me of this article (http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/editorials/3221-RedMorgan-s-Column-A-Roleplaying-Revival) that Red Morgan wrote forever ago. I very much agree with both of you.

[greeneggsnoham]

Even if the time was random, it would be a statistical impossibility for you to get less skill than him after that much time.

Random = bad. It doesn't reward work consistently. When randomness is involved, there is no such thing as statistically impossible.

I'm speaking somewhat from experience. I seem to be on the digital random number generator's black list. I can think of numerous times where when farming for something that supposedly had a 5% drop rate, I farmed for entire days and never got the drop.

The thing with randomness is that each event is independent of the last. In a random system, every time I swing my sword I have the exact same chance of increasing my skill. Someone with favour from the gods of RNG can get their skill to 20 in 20 swings. Someone else can swing 20 times and still be at 0.

[keeperofstars]

If I recall didnt they say that certain gear / weapons required certain skill levels, and you have to have certain skill levels to unlock other skills / abilities.

Skill level won't affect your hit / miss but will affect the damage done. It will also affect other aspects like mana usage / stanima useage, and such.

[greeneggsnoham]

Your post reminded me of this article (http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/editorials/3221-RedMorgan-s-Column-A-Roleplaying-Revival) that Red Morgan wrote forever ago. I very much agree with both of you.

Damnit. Now you got me drooling again. I'm going to have to go out and buy more paper towel or a bib.

[Nomaar]

the significance of this is amazing. instead of being the man behind the keyboard, you are actually brought back to the truest form of gameplay. you are role playing a character. instead of worring that your character reach a certain level and attain x item, you are worried about what YOU do inside the world.

People will always be concerned about "leveling up" and attaining items in this type of game. To think people are suddenly going to act differently is wishful thinking. Ultima Online also used a skill-based system as most people know. People also grinded in that game--it's just that they were grinding skills instead of grinding levels. When people would spend hours clicking away at a target dummy in UO, it wasn't to roleplay. It was to grind up those almighty skill points.

Also, many people will use macros to level up skill points while they sleep--unless the Darkfall team has something in the works to contend with this.

[greeneggsnoham]

People will always be concerned about "leveling up" and attaining items in this type of game. To think people are suddenly going to act differently is wishful thinking. Ultima Online also used a skill-based system as most people know. People also grinded in that game--it's just that they were grinding skills instead of grinding levels. When people would spend hours clicking away at a target dummy in UO, it wasn't to roleplay. It was to grind up those almighty skill points.

Also, many people will use macros to level up skill points while they sleep--unless the Darkfall team has something in the works to contend with this.

I agree. The grinders will not stop being grinders due to a change in game mechanics.

However, I think that the point of his post was that you have the ability to see the game differently. Those who are so inclined, and who have been frustrated with MMORPG like me for years, will feel more immersed in the game and their character. Those players will value their character differently, and will do things differently in this game, due to the effect that their actual actions play on their character.

[fritos1]

Yeah I played SWG at Launch which at that time was sand box and each skill box in that game had different tears and as you unlocked new boxes in different skills you would unlock new abilitys only like 1-2 at a time till you mastered some thing and then not every box and when you mastered some thing you would get the most abilitys and some stat boosts could be similar.

[bonsaimo7]

Perhaps I have missed this while reading this thread or overlooking others. How exactly does skill deterioration work? Is there any way that if you master or get high enough in a particular skill that it will stop deteriorating?

[sorros]

when you say 'level based', it generally means a stat-based, overall level that auto-increases skills and stats, because of farming mobs/quests for XP. this doesnt have 'levels', but skills that you, yes, 'level'. it isnt a traditional leveling system though.

[Syber70]

If you do not use any skill for X amount of time, then your skill will start to decrease. No one knows yet what X amount of time will mean.

[no-one]

Yes technically levelling a skill is still leveling but, skill levels make less of an impact on who wins any given fight than an overall level would ( like in WOW)

Another advantage is if you don't like the way your character is turning out you can just start using different equipment and start playing in a way that suits you better. Rather than being stuck with a class like in most games.

[Draconaes]

This sounds like the runescape "leveling" system to me. There you have about 20 skills that all start at "level" 1 and you get get all of them up to 99 if you invest time in them. You might have a magic skill of 99 but a range skill of 1 while someone else might have a range skill of 99 and a magic skill of 1. What's nice about this system is the elimination of classes. If you want a mage or a fighter or an archer you don't have to roll a new toon and go through the same boring quests three times to level them all up. You just work in that skill area to get there. It's a lot more freedom.

I agree, that was the nice thing about runescape. The only thing that got me was that you could cook a whole bunch of fish and learn to make cakes from that experiance:rolleyes:

DF, to my understanding, will have each skill and ability level up on its own.
for example, in runescape you could train using a bronze sword then be able to use a steel battleaxe. In DF you would have to train your sword skill seperate from your battleaxe skill, or something along those lines.

[Lusain]

Maxing out skills will make you alot stronger. It's been said that one fully skilled guy is about even to 5? brand new people assuming they all have the same player skill (not character skill).

Also its been said that when you have a maxxed skill there are specialties that come along with maxing a skill.

So no levels no. Just character skill and player skill that decides.

What do people who have played within this type of system in the past think of it (ie you ex-uo players)?

I've always only played level-based systems.

[Abbadon]

What do people who have played within this type of system in the past think of it (ie you ex-uo players)?

I've always only played level-based systems.

skill based system is great. removing classes from the mix, lets you customize your character greatly.

not to mention: when everyone can be anything on their favorite toon, and are not damned to be a warrior class, or a mage class, but can have aspects of both...your players "balance" themselves...


if something is too powerful for you? you think its unbalanced.... well, learn it. then you can do it too.

[pckrbkr69]

I played UO from the start and still think it was the best mmorpg to date. Well until Richard G was handed his walking papers. The game became silly after that. The skill based scheme was fantastic, you could try new things and if they didn't work...oh well just mark that skill to decrease. It was a lot of fun to play.

[Shigimatsu]

I can't wait for this game.

The "no leveling" system is one of the most brilliant ideas I've ever heard. It's genre-transcendent. Here's hoping to I get picked in beta.

[firefly2003]

Yeah I played SWG at Launch which at that time was sand box and each skill box in that game had different tears and as you unlocked new boxes in different skills you would unlock new abilitys only like 1-2 at a time till you mastered some thing and then not every box and when you mastered some thing you would get the most abilitys and some stat boosts could be similar.


Ya but SWG dumped the best part of the game and its playerbase for the WOW kiddies cause it was too hard for them... and look where the game is now ... on its way out..

[Eldaran]

Actually they used to be like that, then they devolved into the tired old level system ripped off from D&D. I think that it's great for tabletop character development, but it's just used to create a lengthy grind in MMOs. When you don't have much content for an end-game, a grind is a pretty easy solution.

Darkfall differs from this model in the way that the very first day you log in, you will be playing the end game. It's a sandbox, and you'll be able to start shaping the world around you as soon as you log in. While there are tons of quests and other kinds of traditional content, there will be a never-ending amount of player driven content. Your character development will be based more on what you do to make a dent in the world than how hard you waste your time grinding.
What an excellent quote. I can't wait to be in that "sandbox".

[andy9306]

Perhaps I have missed this while reading this thread or overlooking others. How exactly does skill deterioration work? Is there any way that if you master or get high enough in a particular skill that it will stop deteriorating?

It is quite the opposite in fact. Skill decay does not affect a skill until it reaches an "expert level", whatever that means.

Any skill at an "expert level" that is not used for a certain, currently unknown, time will slowly degrade over time.

[Paralda]

Skill levels honestly mean very little, and you don't get to choose what you're working on. It just kinda happens.

[Zexoinger]

I think that it will be awesome with no lvls. That means no grinding, no having to be the same lvl as your friends to play with them, and no lvl 80 jumping out and owninating a lvl 7!

[Kuroi Aima]

I think that it will be awesome with no lvls. That means no grinding, no having to be the same lvl as your friends to play with them, and no lvl 80 jumping out and owninating a lvl 7!

yep!

[venomwebb]

Im not sure but the higher skill you got on a sword for exp, I think doesn't mean if you hit or miss. I mean if your sword made contact it's going to dmg... I think skill is what you need to be able to use a weapon. You might have a sword that you only need a skill of 20 to use, and a sword thats a bit harder to use that needs a skill of 60. That's what I'm thinking.....

But even though you have a sword that you can use with not much skill you can still kill someone who has a skill 100 sword. Because of the fact that you are just better at moving around and timeing your attacks.

But lets see in beta

[Lord Caim]

That being sad the idea of no leveling in the traditional sense makes me happy in a certain place.
:rolleyes:

Leveling is actually different from skill based. It may sound the same but think of levels as a measure of you. Skill is a measure of how well you use something.

So if you fight with swords and you are level 8 you're a noob, but if you have a skill of 8 it means you're just a novice swordsman and getting better.

[Dembar]

People seem to forget that even though uo was skill based, Hitting with a weapon was still a dice roll and the lower you skill the less change you have on hitting and the more change you have on being hit. so that was one of the reason to grind some skills.

[RIP-EON]

I find it amazing that there is no leveling and is based on skills alone, if we are going to the case, all role-playing games are based on D & D (Dungeons and Dragons) then, if so, the leveling of the skills that this is not a perfect each a level X amount of points to distribute skills ...

The best thing that could decide it, make Darkfall is based on skills and a free card and not in step level and I have more points of damage.
Even so to be gameplay, will be those who really have the ability to use the character they choose, there will be if the real players with hands xD


Good Bye.-

[Jargo]

I find it amazing that there is no leveling and is based on skills alone, if we are going to the case, all role-playing games are based on D & D (Dungeons and Dragons) then, if so, the leveling of the skills that this is not a perfect each a level X amount of points to distribute skills ...

The best thing that could decide it, make Darkfall is based on skills and a free card and not in step level and I have more points of damage.
Even so to be gameplay, will be those who really have the ability to use the character they choose, there will be if the real players with hands xD


Good Bye.-

No matter how many times I read that I can’t make fucking heads or tails of it.

[greeneggsnoham]

No matter how many times I read that I can’t make fucking heads or tails of it.

Me neither. I want to understand it, but after reading it 3 times I still don't get it.

Free card? Are we playing a FFA PvP Bridge MMO?

Sorry,

[Spaztick]

There are no levels in the game, since it's based on skills, but are there stats in the traditional sense of d20's stats, the SPECIAL system, EVE attributes, et cetera?

[Nuada]

Sure

[tsalin]

Your character development will be based more on what you do to make a dent in the world than how hard you waste your time grinding. down with grinding; up with playing! :rolleyes:

[Wookalar]

I would think that, having no levels, the roleplay potential could be high.
Also, i would like to throw my vote of confidence to the Devs in that they would most likely have a system in place to combat macro's/bots, etc.

If i am not mistaken this game is one of supposed infinite possibilities. Combine that with the imagination of gamers around the world and this could be the most fantastic game ever.

Edit: To each his own as to grinding, those who grind supply stuff for those who do not. Economy my dear Watson

[tejón]

There are no levels in the game, since it's based on skills, but are there stats in the traditional sense of d20's stats, the SPECIAL system, EVE attributes, et cetera?
Last we heard, yes. That was some time ago, but we have no reason to think it's changed. And we'll see soon enough. :)

re: much of the thread, it bears repeating that "no levels" is the wrong description, because yes, you "level up" your skills. What Darkfall has is no classes, and no overall concept of character level. You don't gain XP by killing or questing, and (this is important) you don't get to assign skill points as you choose; you just do what you do, and get better at it through practice. And if you don't do something for a while, you get rusty (skill decay).

This is probably my favorite thing about the Darkfall system: you don't directly control it, which means that creating a mathematically optimal "build" is effectively impossible.

[zamp]

THis system of none lvl , based on skills its indeed much more realistic and gives a better experience of gameplaying, i can tell that , i was a player of Ultima Online witch had a very similar system and i also played WOW and i can realy tell that the UO even being much more poor on graphics and others details , provided me much more fun with this system of skills :)

[Zizoo]

Sweet!

[Stigma]

Skills you choose to use range from 1-100 based on how often you use it. What advantages will you get as you raise this skills?

Perhaps I am miss informed but lets say for example if you use swords, the more you use swords the more accurate and damaging you swings will become.

As I understand it now. That, while nontraditional, still sounds like leveling to a certain degree.

That being sad the idea of no leveling in the traditional sense makes me happy in a certain place. The more I read the more enthusiastic I become.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

The difference is that you can get to increase the skills you want, instead of being forced into a role. For example, even if you become the best swordfighter in all of the land, your hitpoints don't automatically increase as a result of that.

In tradiotonal level-based games you travel along a predetermined path and get upgrades to your "package" of skills regardless of your actions as long as you got enough XP to advance. The result is that a level 30 fighter is pretty much identical to all other level 30 fighters. In a skill-based system you get total freedom to develop your skills, so a player who played 100 hours could be totally different from another player who played the same amount of time - even if both of them chose to play a melee-type character.

Its very similar to Asherons Call if you ever played that.

So yes, there is definately character progression. A completely new character will be much weaker than a veteran character, but its the seperate skills themselves that will level up, not the character as a whole. That also makes it much more interresting because a relatively new character who has only leveled up a handful of skills could under the right circumstances kill a character who had spent much more time "leveling up" his character. In a typical level based game, a level 10 character could never beat a level 30 character, even if the level 30 didnt even try to defend himself... and thats just silly.

-Stigma