Pistol for CCW

[DR.NUMBERS]

Hey guys,

I'm looking at pistols for concealed carry.

So far I'm considering the:

Kimber Ultra RCP II (http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/customshop/ultra_rcp_II/) (although I've heard Kimber sometimes has slide/ejection issues, I've never fired one myself)

and


Colt New Agent (http://ezine.m1911.org/ColtNA.htm) (I'm not sure I like the exposed hammer on the Colt, also, its less smooth/rounded with more edges:( )


I'm not concerned about the lack of conventional sites on these guns. In fact, its one of the reasons I like them. The trough sites reduce the risk of snags on clothing/holsters. I'm looking something for CCW i.e. a backup gun. I wouldn't be using it at marksmanship competitions, I just need to be able to hit something at 15 feet in an emergency (draw speed being important).

That said, my main concerns are for concealablity (size, weight, snags) , reliability and firepower (no .380/9mm).

I'm also considering a J-frame revolver in .357 for pocket carry if I decide to go down that route (not likely though).

If any of you own either of those two pistols and can comment on them or want to suggest an alternative, post away.

[Selzifan]

Uh oh.

[Uzik]

Flint-lock pistol IMO.

I think it would cause a moment of confusion when you draw it, which would allow you to blast their faces off.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Flint-lock pistol IMO.

I think it would cause a moment of confusion when you draw it, which would allow you to blast their faces off.

And in the likelihood that I miss, I can always club them to death with it too! Unfortunately it fails the reliability, size, weight, snag and firepower criteria.

[Uzik]

And in the likelihood that I miss, I can always club them to death with it too! Unfortunately it fails the reliability, size, weight, snag and firepower criteria.

Aren't flint-lock like .58? Best firepower IMO, would leave a crater in the person if you hit em.

[Metal Wolf]

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=136&category_id=30&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Look like a 60 punk sifi captain while killen fools. No reason to skip an opportunity to a track pussy just cause your cappin a mother fucka.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Aren't flint-lock like .58? Best firepower IMO, would leave a crater in the person if you hit em.

You can find flintlocks for sale in anything from .30 to .80 but you only get one shot.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=136&category_id=30&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Look like a 60 punk sifi captain while killen fools. No reason to skip an opportunity to a track pussy just cause your cappin a mother fucka.

That certainly is interesting looking. Too bad it was designed to be a piece of junk, is .22 caliber, and is not very concealable.

[Selzifan]

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

That should be what you're looking for. Or if you want to be cool get a SIG P228.

[Caffy]

I am very pleased with my Sig P226. My brother and his MP friends all use it and convinced me to purchase one after shooting with them.

Sig Homepage (http://www.sigsauer.com/Default.aspx)

[Selzifan]

I am very pleased with my Sig P226. My brother and his MP friends all use it and convinced me to purchase one after shooting with them.

Sig Homepage (http://www.sigsauer.com/Default.aspx)

228 and 229 are the more compact ones though for CCW.

[DR.NUMBERS]

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

That should be what you're looking for. Or if you want to be cool get a SIG P228.

I considered a regular XD at one point, but me and polymer don't get along. After all it is supposed to be "a weapon of wood and iron".

Sigs do look interesting though, I'll have to see how "compact" they really are.

[Caffy]

I didn't find the extra .5" affected me much and the extra barrel length improved accuracy and showed a small but noticable effect when firing at meat, vs the p229 I tried out. Comes down to personal choice.

[Spinewire]

Aren't flint-lock like .58? Best firepower IMO, would leave a crater in the person if you hit em.
I think a moden day 9mm with a hollow tip would do just as well, if you just wanted to go make a mess than HP 45. round would probabaly fuck someone up real bad...

[Lindorn]

The person who can /end thread at any moment is Matriel.

[Spinewire]

Well untill he gets here my suggestion is:

Kahr CW9

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3157/2569502690_48068f0fea.jpg?v=0
From right to left...
Glock 19, Sig P250c, Kahr CW9

It is a 9mm tho, if you use the R9MM4 (the 9mm JHP 115 gr. +p+) you will have a stopping power you desire.

[DR.NUMBERS]

The person who can /end thread at any moment is Matriel.

Yeah, I'm waiting for him to get here since he wasn't available on IM :(

[Spinewire]

Yeah, I'm waiting for him to get here since he wasn't available on IM :(
Stop hating on 9mm and get a Kahr CW9.....
It's super light and sexy

Also the R9MM4 round can kill God

[Carl Ragadamn]

Personally I would stray away from Kimber, due to a slight slide in quality as they became more popular. You are better off getting the colt and spending extra money tricking it out. Though I still carry my full frame springfield 1911, cuz I dont really care how concealed it is.

[Carl Ragadamn]

Stop hating on 9mm and get a Kahr CW9.....
It's super light and sexy

Also the R9MM4 round can kill God

9mm is for chicks...

Or as my friend says, "9mm might get the job done, .45 will get the job done".

Also hand loaded .45 hollow points FTW (loaded to 98% of max tolerance for my chamber).

[Spinewire]

Though I still carry my full frame springfield 1911, cuz I dont really care how concealed it is.
well don't you just like it to all hang out

Or as my friend says, "9mm might get the job done, .45 will get the job done".
A hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a 45.


edit- the R9MM4 is on a par with several 357 rounds

[DR.NUMBERS]

Stop hating on 9mm and get a Kahr CW9.....
It's super light and sexy

Also the R9MM4 round can kill God

How about a Kahr PM45, its smaller and in .45. Or the Kahr p45, same size as CW9 but in .45.

They should be a serious consideration, thanks for the heads up.

[Spinewire]

How about a Kahr PM45, its smaller and in .45. Or the Kahr p45, same size as CW9 but in .45.

They should be a serious consideration, thanks for the heads up.
If cannot do without the 45. and you are willing to fork out a bit more cash then sure.

The CW9 is a low cost version on the p9 and if it's only a back up you might not want to spend that much. Also i did not realise the p45 was the same size as the CW9, if it weighs the same then might be a bit harder to group the shots in a 45. then again as it's a back up you prob won't be shooting over 15 yards anyway so it might be a bit of a moot point.

[epicor]

How about a Kahr PM45, its smaller and in .45. Or the Kahr p45, same size as CW9 but in .45.

They should be a serious consideration, thanks for the heads up.

i vote for this one. PM45 is super light n sexy.

[DR.NUMBERS]

If cannot do without the 45. and you are willing to fork out a bit more cash then sure.

The CW9 is a low cost version on the p9 and if it's only a back up you might not want to spend that much.

The price difference really isn't that much and is still lower than both the Kimber and the Colt (I always thought Kahr we're super expensive, guess not)

Personally I would stray away from Kimber, due to a slight slide in quality as they became more popular. You are better off getting the colt and spending extra money tricking it out. Though I still carry my full frame springfield 1911, cuz I dont really care how concealed it is.

I heard about the Kimber quality slide but there seems to be a indecision as to whether its real or not. The only reason I don't go straight for the colt is the exposed hammer and less rounded edges. Maybe I'm being too picky.

[Spinewire]

The price difference really isn't that much and is still lower than both the Kimber and the Colt (I always thought Kahr we're super expensive, guess not)
think the cw9 is a cheeper version of the p9 and i ahve always heard they are pricy made well but pricy.

No trenched sights for you tho :(

[Caffy]

I went 357 SIG with Remington Gold Saber. It transfers more energy in 12-15" penetration during gel test than any round besides the 10mm silvertip.

Texas DPS troopers have told me it has the best 1 shot stopping potential of any round they have used; including .45, 9mm, and .40.

[Spinewire]

Texas DPS troopers
I would love to have a job that described me as DPS.

[Carl Ragadamn]

well don't you just like it to all hang out


A hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a 45.


edit- the R9MM4 is on a par with several 357 rounds

Yep, never had a situation go beyond moving my shirt.

Also why would you miss your target? That would mean you havent trained enough.

[Matriel]

Nothing like the great American myth that .45acp is significantly more powerful than modern loadings in 9mm. The amount of difference in foot pounds of energy is a fucking joke. Unless you're talking about high powered hunting revolvers, handguns have almost no real difference in energy outside of perhaps 10mm with nuclear loadings. I'd rather have the handgun I shoot accurately faster than one that puts a hole in someone 2mm bigger. :ohno:

I won't recommend 1911 models to people for CCW. 8 rounds of .45 is meh. And the double stack 1911's are the size of cars. The single action trigger is nice, but I still think they leave a lot to be desired for self-defense applications. If you get attacked by multiple people (which happens) you've got very few rounds to spread around before you're needing a reload. You will miss in life and death situations. No matter how much training you have. You will miss.

Get something that's ultra-reliable, has good capacity, feels good in your hand (close your eyes, aim at something, open them and see if the sights are on, natural pointing). Less recoil is great for followup shots. Which with handguns is exactly what you need.

I usually practice strings of 3/1 3/2 4/2 when I shoot. First number is center of mass, second number is the head. If someone gets me to a point where I have to shoot them, I will stop the threat with multiple rounds. Period.

With that said, I like the Glock platform. But it might not work for you. Go to a range that lets you rent pistols and try out many. Personally I usually pack a Glock 19 or a Glock 20 sometimes in the winter. 9mm and 10mm respectively.

[Fro]

How about you risk not having a back up gun?

[Carl Ragadamn]

How about you risk not having a back up gun?

Back up guns serve multiple purposes. I carry my 357 snub on my ankle anytime I am not wearing shorts. No one would ever no it is there, so I can carry it in situations where my full frame would cause undue problems, like at the bank.

[Nexus]

Where ever the OP lives, i'm glad I don't live there too.

[Caffy]

Where ever the OP lives, i'm glad I don't live there too.

Red Stick isn't a bad town. I've been through there alot visiting relatives in the state. I'm sure it sucked the last few days with the hurricane though.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Nothing like the great American myth that .45acp is significantly more powerful than modern loadings in 9mm. The amount of difference in foot pounds of energy is a fucking joke. Unless you're talking about high powered hunting revolvers, handguns have almost no real difference in energy outside of perhaps 10mm with nuclear loadings. I'd rather have the handgun I shoot accurately faster than one that puts a hole in someone 2mm bigger. :ohno:

I won't recommend 1911 models to people for CCW. 8 rounds of .45 is meh. And the double stack 1911's are the size of cars. The single action trigger is nice, but I still think they leave a lot to be desired for self-defense applications. If you get attacked by multiple people (which happens) you've got very few rounds to spread around before you're needing a reload. You will miss in life and death situations. No matter how much training you have. You will miss.

Get something that's ultra-reliable, has good capacity, feels good in your hand (close your eyes, aim at something, open them and see if the sights are on, natural pointing). Less recoil is great for followup shots. Which with handguns is exactly what you need.

I usually practice strings of 3/1 3/2 4/2 when I shoot. First number is center of mass, second number is the head. If someone gets me to a point where I have to shoot them, I will stop the threat with multiple rounds. Period.

With that said, I like the Glock platform. But it might not work for you. Go to a range that lets you rent pistols and try out many. Personally I usually pack a Glock 19 or a Glock 20 sometimes in the winter. 9mm and 10mm respectively.

Eh, I've had the opportunity to fire three Glocks so far and have never liked any of them.

I chose the 1911 design mostly because I find it the most naturally "pointable" for me. It was one of the first handguns I learned on and I still shoot one regularly.

Although I hold a good deal of respect for your opinion, many others I have encountered have rated 9mm as not a round ideal for self-defense unless you can keep calm and hit center mass. I've regularly seen 9mm and .380 auto listed as the minimum adequate round. If you wing them, take down is not as likely. I've never shot anyone so I can't speak for myself.
I may be entirely wrong.

Also, the opinion on the LEO forums (yes, they can be arrogant SOBs) is that if you can stop someone in 8 rounds, you wont stop them with 12.
Many police departments have now switched over .40S&W to get a balance between capacity and caliber and its hard to find any complaints.

How about you risk not having a back up gun?
Where ever the OP lives, i'm glad I don't live there too.



Ah, I was waiting for you to drop by. Its ok, don't worry, the evil guns can't get you in England. However, their equally vicious in-laws, knives and bricks, are on the prowl. They're always waiting to leap out at you so be careful.

Red Stick isn't a bad town. I've been through there alot visiting relatives in the state. I'm sure it sucked the last few days with the hurricane though.

Lol, Louisiana in general is a complete hole. I think it is, or used to be , leading in state murders per capita. If I told you why I'd probably get an infraction.

[DR.NUMBERS]

After looking at standard .45acp and 9x19mm cartridge data I have discovered.

The .45acp has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 420.

The 9x19mm has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 362.

At 25yards the .45acp is 385.

At 25 yards the 9x19mm is 347.

At 50 yards the .45acp is 349.

At 50 yards the 9x19mm is 319.

This was done using standard loads. More powerful / special defense loads are available for each caliber.

Also, isn't the Army looking to replace its 9mm Beretta with .40S&W/.45acp firearms?

[bluthorn]

Oh great, the 9mm vs .45 is gonna begin...

[Xtra-Medium]

get a d eagle cuz its so big and badass

[Carl Ragadamn]

Oh great, the 9mm vs .45 is gonna begin...

Here is a hint #62000+ this has been debated here before many times.

[Nexus]

Ah, I was waiting for you to drop by. Its ok, don't worry, the evil guns can't get you in England. However, their equally vicious in-laws, knives and bricks, are on the prowl. They're always waiting to leap out at you so be careful.

Me specifically or just any anti-gun pussy?

[DR.NUMBERS]

Me specifically or just any anti-gun pussy?

More specifically Fro, you were just a bonus.

[Arkh]

Also, the opinion on the LEO forums (yes, they can be arrogant SOBs) is that if you can stop someone in 8 rounds, you wont stop them with 12.
If you can stop someone in 4 rounds, you can stop 3 with 12, only 2 with 8. I think that's for the outnumbered scenario that Matriel advocates having enough rounds.

[Matriel]

I chose the 1911 design mostly because I find it the most naturally "pointable" for me. It was one of the first handguns I learned on and I still shoot one regularly.

I realize what I said is heresy. I'm okay with that. I shoot a 1911 more accurately than any other handgun. I won't carry one for self-defense.

Although I hold a good deal of respect for your opinion, many others I have encountered have rated 9mm as not a round ideal for self-defense unless you can keep calm and hit center mass. I've regularly seen 9mm and .380 auto listed as the minimum adequate round. If you wing them, take down is not as likely. I've never shot anyone so I can't speak for myself.
I may be entirely wrong.

Go ask any of the naysayers if they have done any real testing or if they are just regurgitating bullshit they've heard in gunshops and read on forums.

If you wing someone with a .45acp takedown isn't likely either. The only way you stop someone with a firearm is bleed out, structural failure (breaking the hips), taking out the central nervous system, or mental. The first 3 don't happen from wingings regardless of the extra 2mm's of diameter on the bullet. The last one is unpredictable even with rifle calibers.

Read this link: It's the most honest evaluation of 9mm vs .45 that I've ever seen. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm


Also, the opinion on the LEO forums (yes, they can be arrogant SOBs) is that if you can stop someone in 8 rounds, you wont stop them with 12.
Many police departments have now switched over .40S&W to get a balance between capacity and caliber and its hard to find any complaints.

And you can find pictures on the Internet of people shot like 30 times that still didn't go down by LEO's because they never hit anything important. Listening to a bunch of barely trained morons is never a good idea.




After looking at standard .45acp and 9x19mm cartridge data I have discovered.

The .45acp has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 420.

The 9x19mm has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 362.

At 25yards the .45acp is 385.

At 25 yards the 9x19mm is 347.

At 50 yards the .45acp is 349.

At 50 yards the 9x19mm is 319.

This was done using standard loads. More powerful / special defense loads are available for each caliber.

Also, isn't the Army looking to replace its 9mm Beretta with .40S&W/.45acp firearms?

Supposedly the military is going back to .45 every other year. It still hasn't happened. And the military application is a horrible argument as they are restricted to hardball ammunition only. You are not.

You are also giving energy readings for a 5" barrel. Both of the handguns you suggested have 3" barrels, which gives up even more velocity on a slow ass round like .45acp.

I've seen people hit with 7.62x51mm (.308) and live. That round has over 2,000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards and you're trying to say that the small number between 9mm and .45acp makes a difference?

By all means, go with the .45 if that's what you want, just don't chalk it up as some magical manstopper. It's just an old ass pistol round.

[DR.NUMBERS]

I realize what I said is heresy. I'm okay with that. I shoot a 1911 more accurately than any other handgun. I won't carry one for self-defense.



Go ask any of the naysayers if they have done any real testing or if they are just regurgitating bullshit they've heard in gunshops and read on forums.

If you wing someone with a .45acp takedown isn't likely either. The only way you stop someone with a firearm is bleed out, structural failure (breaking the hips), taking out the central nervous system, or mental. The first 3 don't happen from wingings regardless of the extra 2mm's of diameter on the bullet. The last one is unpredictable even with rifle calibers.

Read this link: It's the most honest evaluation of 9mm vs .45 that I've ever seen. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm




And you can find pictures on the Internet of people shot like 30 times that still didn't go down by LEO's because they never hit anything important. Listening to a bunch of barely trained morons is never a good idea.






Supposedly the military is going back to .45 every other year. It still hasn't happened. And the military application is a horrible argument as they are restricted to hardball ammunition only. You are not.

You are also giving energy readings for a 5" barrel. Both of the handguns you suggested have 3" barrels, which gives up even more velocity on a slow ass round like .45acp.

I've seen people hit with 7.62x51mm (.308) and live. That round has over 2,000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards and you're trying to say that the small number between 9mm and .45acp makes a difference?

By all means, go with the .45 if that's what you want, just don't chalk it up as some magical manstopper. It's just an old ass pistol round.


I don't necessarily think there's anything magical about it or even that it is superior, I just don't know otherwise.

Also, I thought most of your handguns were .45s before you went Glock mad?

[Caffy]

I thought there were some interesting tidbits in this. Especially the stuff from police agencies who have witnessed it's effects first hand, and in countless tests.

the .357 Sig is very close to becoming one of the finest auto pistol cartridges ever made. It works consistently over and over again. Police agencies from coast to coast are switching to it in droves because it truly offers everything that the 9mm +P+ had going for it, plus the penetration of the 147gr 9mm along with the capabilities that the disappointing .40 S&W "wonder cartridge" was supposed to have. In a medium frame/medium sized service pistol it offers everything that the .45acp can in terms of penetration and "stopping power" but it does it in a smaller package.


http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm

[Matriel]

I don't necessarily think there's anything magical about it or even that it is superior, I just don't know otherwise.

Also, I thought most of your handguns were .45s before you went Glock mad?

I've had a bit of everything in the last couple of years. After going to a couple of pistol defense classes I went with what worked best for me.

I thought there were some interesting tidbits in this. Especially the stuff from police agencies who have witnessed it's effects first hand, and in countless tests.



http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm

With a 3 foot muzzle flash and ridiculously snappy recoil. :sly:

[Caffy]

With a 3 foot muzzle flash and ridiculously snappy recoil. :sly:

That hasn't been my experience, or that of the friends I shoot with. Except for with very high loads the recoil isn't significantly more than .40 weapons I've fired.

[Wickfield]

That hasn't been my experience, or that of the friends I shoot with. Except for with very high loads the recoil isn't significantly more than .40 weapons I've fired.

In the dark you're going to go blind shooting it, and if you're in an even remotely closed area you're going to go deaf.

[Carl Ragadamn]

In the dark you're going to go blind shooting it, and if you're in an even remotely closed area you're going to go deaf.

Meh never really bothers me, but then again I have photophobic eyes so I know how to adjust to the muzzleflash. I do agree with Matriel though, go with what feels right to you. For me thats my 1911, but I have been shooting it since I was 11 (so 19 years).

[Caffy]

In the dark you're going to go blind shooting it, and if you're in an even remotely closed area you're going to go deaf.

The 357 sig is just a .40 s&w crimped to fit a 9mm bullet on it. It's cartridge is 22mm long vs 33mm for a normal 357 magnum. I like it, and find it's recoil controlable even in rapid fire.

Some bullets I've used were glorified 9mm rounds. Certainly not something that will make you go blind and deaf.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:9mm_7,62mm_357sig_10mm_45SW_45GAP_ 50AE_001.jpg

357 sig 3rd from left

[Spinewire]

After looking at standard .45acp and 9x19mm cartridge data I have discovered.

The .45acp has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 420.

The 9x19mm has an average foot pound at the muzzle of 362.

At 25yards the .45acp is 385.

At 25 yards the 9x19mm is 347.

At 50 yards the .45acp is 349.

At 50 yards the 9x19mm is 319.

This was done using standard loads. More powerful / special defense loads are available for each caliber.

Also, isn't the Army looking to replace its 9mm Beretta with .40S&W/.45acp firearms?

R9MM4 has over 400 foot pound at the muzzle

Get a Kahr CW9... i'm super serial.

[Mungad]

My buddy (former Highway Patrolman) swears on Kel-Tec PF-9 for its easy to conceal style.

[Aramoro]

Glock 19 with ctc grip laser. It's a great packing size, it is only a 9mm but most people over look the fact that you get 15 rounds. It's reasonably priced vs the Kimber, and if you pack it everyday get use to cleaning your gun, with the glock three moves and it's ready to clean. They are weather durable and I've fired 2500 rounds out of my 40cal without cleaning it and it has yet to jam on me. If you're packing with the intention of defending yourself, that is a huge thing.

[Phooey]

Walther PPK. If it was good enough for James Bond, it's good enough for you.

[kordoyn]

Walther PPK. If it was good enough for James Bond, it's good enough for you.

Only because Bond could kill anyone with a bb to the thumb. 8 rounds of .22 or 9x17mm isn't something I'd want as a last resort self defence weapon if I had the choice for something either more powerful or with a larger magazine. (Or both)

[Dhig]

Me specifically or just any anti-gun pussy?

People with small dicks need them to feel manly :D

[Carl Ragadamn]

People with small dicks need them to feel manly :D

Guess what #59103, you dont matter. Stop trying to be cool and go back to GD with the rest of the nonfactor posters.

[Dhig]

Guess what #59103, you dont matter. Stop trying to be cool and go back to GD with the rest of the nonfactor posters.

Hey someone with a small dick :D

[Carl Ragadamn]

Hey someone with a small dick :D

Nope just someone keeping the elitism of Forumfall alive.

[Dhig]

Nope just someone keeping the elitism of Forumfall alive.

With spamming I see :D
Nice way to get your post count up while acting as one of the elitists ;)

[Arkh]

People with small dicks need them to feel manly :D
Yeah yeah, gunz are for losers. They help them defend themselves when outpowered or outnumbered.
It's all good to play the tough guy on the interwebz, but the fact is, not everyone is a 100kg guy with martial training.

[Tdog]

For a nice side arm that is easy to learn and fun to shoot -
Heckler & Koch USP with 40 S&W rounds.

I also like the 1911 .45 but it has jamming issues after the gun has been "worn" in and it has a small clip.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[DR.NUMBERS]

For a nice side arm that is easy to learn and fun to shoot -
Heckler & Koch USP with 40 S&W rounds.

I also like the 1911 .45 but it has jamming issues after the gun has been "worn" in and it has a small clip.

Just my 2 cents worth.

In my experience the 1911 has behaved exactly the opposite, rough at first but smooth after 500-1000 rounds. Also, both of those are too large for convenient CCW.

[Tdog]

In m experience the 1911 has behaved exactly the opposite, rough at first but smooth after 500-1000 rounds. Also, both of those are too large for convenient CCW.

USP is not that large and its very light.

Hmm might need to get my 1911 looked at because it is jamming alot more as of late.

[DR.NUMBERS]

USP is not that large and its very light.

Hmm might need to get my 1911 looked at because it is jamming alot more as of late.

Polish the barrel and inside of the slide. That has helped quite a few "sticky" guns.

[Fro]

Ah, I was waiting for you to drop by. Its ok, don't worry, the evil guns can't get you in England. However, their equally vicious in-laws, knives and bricks, are on the prowl. They're always waiting to leap out at you so be careful.

I'm scared maybe i should get a gun or maybe 4 or 5 to carry around with me so i could be completely safe. :rolleyes:

[Dhig]

I'm scared maybe i should get a gun or maybe 4 or 5 to carry around with me so i could be completely safe. :rolleyes:

And you can also shoot those that dont have guns just because you have one and they dont :ohno::ninja:

[Arkh]

And you can also shoot those that dont have guns just because you have one and they dont :ohno::ninja:
Would you do that if you had a gun ?

[Caffy]

Would you do that if you had a gun ?

Don't you know that everyone who owns a gun is crazy and just goes around blasting everyone? That's why there are millions of shootings in the US every minute. :rolleyes:

[Lysandor]

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

That should be what you're looking for. Or if you want to be cool get a SIG P228.

I use the XD9 at work.


I'd never buy one.

Get a Sig.

[Dhig]

Don't you know that everyone who owns a gun is crazy and just goes around blasting everyone? That's why there are millions of shootings in the US every minute. :rolleyes:

Yes because it is much safer that everyone look out for themselves instead of having the government make laws and keep people safe.

[Arkh]

You didn't answer my question : if you had a gun, would you start shooting everyone ?

[Caffy]

Yes because it is much safer that everyone look out for themselves instead of having the government make laws and keep people safe.

Because we live in the world of Minority Report where the government has warning of every crime that's going to happen and can send police out to arrest the criminals before they kill people. :bang:

The police can't be everywhere. That's why there are murders every single day. You can dream about your big government utopia where the nanny state wipes your ass for you. I'll look out for myself and not be defenseless.

[Matriel]

That hasn't been my experience, or that of the friends I shoot with. Except for with very high loads the recoil isn't significantly more than .40 weapons I've fired.

You do realize that .40S&W has the snappiest recoil of all the service calibers right? Even 10mm has less recoil than it because the pressure is ridiculous. Compared to the smooth recoiling .45 or light recoiling 9mm, .40 and .357 sig are very snappy and much more difficult to get followup shots with.

R9MM4 has over 400 foot pound at the muzzle

Get a Kahr CW9... i'm super serial.

Fuck Kahr with their shitty DAO trigger pull and low capacity super expensive pistols for what you get.

My buddy (former Highway Patrolman) swears on Kel-Tec PF-9 for its easy to conceal style.

PF-9 is good if you want a pocket pistol.

Walther PPK. If it was good enough for James Bond, it's good enough for you.

Your state doesn't even have carry. Shut up.

For a nice side arm that is easy to learn and fun to shoot -
Heckler & Koch USP with 40 S&W rounds.

I also like the 1911 .45 but it has jamming issues after the gun has been "worn" in and it has a small clip.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Yes, go with HK if you want no customer service and a nice RFID chip in your pistol.

And you can also shoot those that dont have guns just because you have one and they dont :ohno::ninja:

Which happens everywhere in America with the millions of private citizens that carry guns everyday. Oh wait, more irrational fears from moron Europeans that have never seen a firearm unless it was while they were conscript slaves for their governments.

[Rhasta]

Your gun laws didnt brought you anything good, in fact you are most paranoid country in the world. In Europe you feel safe in America you dont thats big difference.

[Arkh]

Your gun laws didnt brought you anything good, in fact you are most paranoid country in the world. In Europe you feel safe in America you dont thats big difference.
Feeling safe isn't being safe.

[Rhasta]

Feeling safe isn't being safe.

Well at least my goverment doesnt hype me with multiple colours of danger.

[Tdog]

You do realize that .40S&W has the snappiest recoil of all the service calibers right? Even 10mm has less recoil than it because the pressure is ridiculous. Compared to the smooth recoiling .45 or light recoiling 9mm, .40 and .357 sig are very snappy and much more difficult to get followup shots with.



Fuck Kahr with their shitty DAO trigger pull and low capacity super expensive pistols for what you get.



PF-9 is good if you want a pocket pistol.



Your state doesn't even have carry. Shut up.



Yes, go with HK if you want no customer service and a nice RFID chip in your pistol.



Which happens everywhere in America with the millions of private citizens that carry guns everyday. Oh wait, more irrational fears from moron Europeans that have never seen a firearm unless it was while they were conscript slaves for their governments.

What the hell would you need customer service for? RFID chip? never heard that before, even if its true, that is easy enough problem to resolve.

[Tdog]

Well at least my goverment doesnt hype me with multiple colours of danger.

Most people in the States dont care which color our goverment wants to use for that week. It means nothing.

Have a gun for personal protection is the same as having life insurance or any other kind of insurance. JUST IN CASE.

[Arkh]

Well at least my goverment doesnt hype me with multiple colours of danger.
But the day it want to turn on you, you won't be able to defend yourself.
Or more simply, the day some lunatic want to beat you or steal your property, because the police isn't near you.

Guns : cheapest bodyguards you can get. If politicians are protected by bodyguards, why shouldn't you be able too ?

[Dhig]

Because we live in the world of Minority Report where the government has warning of every crime that's going to happen and can send police out to arrest the criminals before they kill people. :bang:

The police can't be everywhere. That's why there are murders every single day. You can dream about your big government utopia where the nanny state wipes your ass for you. I'll look out for myself and not be defenseless.

So you mean that in case something happens you can shoot them?
That is just how the gun crazy politicians think.
Defending an outdated amendment to carry firearms is stupid.

There are so many brainwashed people in america and that makes me afraid of what will happen with your country.
Warmongering has to start somewhere and it is not likely they are started by pacifists.

[Tdog]

So you mean that in case something happens you can shoot them?
That is just how the gun crazy politicians think.
Defending an outdated amendment to carry firearms is stupid.

There are so many brainwashed people in america and that makes me afraid of what will happen with your country.
Warmongering has to start somewhere and it is not likely they are started by pacifists.

So do you have health insurance? How about life insurance? Car insurance? Guess what having a gun for personal protection is the same as having insurance.. its all about the JUST IN CASE.

"Defending an outdated amendment" Are you serious? The amendment is not out of date, how the hell can an amendment be out of date. Are you saying the Consitition of the USA is out of date?

That amendment is needed now more then ever, if our goverment ever tries to control our lifes, we will rise up and clean out the goverment and start over.

[DeathByCactus]

Hey guys,

I'm looking at pistols for concealed carry.

So far I'm considering the:

Kimber Ultra RCP II (http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/customshop/ultra_rcp_II/) (although I've heard Kimber sometimes has slide/ejection issues, I've never fired one myself)

and


Colt New Agent (http://ezine.m1911.org/ColtNA.htm) (I'm not sure I like the exposed hammer on the Colt, also, its less smooth/rounded with more edges:( )


I'm not concerned about the lack of conventional sites on these guns. In fact, its one of the reasons I like them. The trough sites reduce the risk of snags on clothing/holsters. I'm looking something for CCW i.e. a backup gun. I wouldn't be using it at marksmanship competitions, I just need to be able to hit something at 15 feet in an emergency (draw speed being important).

That said, my main concerns are for concealablity (size, weight, snags) , reliability and firepower (no .380/9mm).

I'm also considering a J-frame revolver in .357 for pocket carry if I decide to go down that route (not likely though).

If any of you own either of those two pistols and can comment on them or want to suggest an alternative, post away.

Well I am doing my concealed carry course tomorrow morning. I am going to pick up the HK45 Compact. I did the research on it, reliable, good for carry (short and thin), nice features (double stack clip, good safety), rugged. Only thing is it is $900 roughly.

I also recommend the .45 cal or .38 super. I used to be a 9mm fan, but after my brother went to Iraq he told me some scary stories of how the 9mm doesn't always do the job in situations where your hands turn to mittens because your adrenaline is pumping so hard...

Also if your looking for a forum where you can get better answers without all these flaming ignorant 2nd amendment haters, there is defensivecarry.com or .net... its been a while since I have been there. Been busy.

People one more note, don't feed the 2nd amendment trolls. They have been brainwashed into sheep. Just as they say we have been brainwashed into paranoia. It's all the same.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/students.htm

Boom there is some more controversy for you fuckers.

[Satan]

i personally use my taurus .45, 945 model i believe.
http://fgtz.com/mygun.jpg

im a pretty tall person though so i can conceal it easy, someone smaller may have a hard time

[alhazred]

any gun made by steyr arms would be sexy and there pistols are good to

great combo of cost and quality

[Carl Ragadamn]

Well I am doing my concealed carry course tomorrow morning. I am going to pick up the HK45 Compact. I did the research on it, reliable, good for carry (short and thin), nice features (double stack clip, good safety), rugged. Only thing is it is $900 roughly.

Also if your looking for a forum where you can get better answers without all these flaming ignorant 2nd amendment haters, there is defensivecarry.com or .net... its been a while since I have been there. Been busy.

People one more note, don't feed the 2nd amendment trolls. They have been brainwashed into sheep. Just as they say we have been brainwashed into paranoia. It's all the same.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/students.htm

Boom there is some more controversy for you fuckers.


He posted here to get Matriel's opinion. Hell I have owned and shot guns my whole life, and plan to own a gunstore/shooting range, and I always give Matriel's opinion due respect.

[DeathByCactus]

He posted here to get Matriel's opinion. Hell I have owned and shot guns my whole life, and plan to own a gunstore/shooting range, and I always give Matriel's opinion due respect.

Oh okay. Whose Matriel? :)

[Tdog]

Oh okay. Whose Matriel? :)

He's like the soup nazi for guns here on forumfall.

[DeathByCactus]

He's like the soup nazi for guns here on forumfall.

I'll have to remember that.

[DeathByCactus]

Yes, go with HK if you want no customer service and a nice RFID chip in your pistol.

Care to elaborate on this? I typically shoot 1911's but... Was thinking about the HK45C, I thought I had done my research but, never heard of this.

[Dhig]

So do you have health insurance? How about life insurance? Car insurance? Guess what having a gun for personal protection is the same as having insurance.. its all about the JUST IN CASE.

"Defending an outdated amendment" Are you serious? The amendment is not out of date, how the hell can an amendment be out of date. Are you saying the Consitition of the USA is out of date?

That amendment is needed now more then ever, if our goverment ever tries to control our lifes, we will rise up and clean out the goverment and start over.

And what do you do about it? Buy a gun and think, this will solve everything?
No you are all followers, sheeps. You do the stuff they tell you, with some sweet patriotic words from them.
You are under control and without a safety net (that the government refuse to provide) you cant do shit. Follow or be cast out.
So what I mean is it doesnt matter if you buy a gun or not. You are not in control. Having guns only make bad things happen more often.

[ABeard]

I like the seecamp .32
Seecamp (http://www.seecamp.com/products.htm)

its made to be durable. the frame is milled from one piece of stainless.

Personnaly i carry a snubnose .41 mag
I only carry when im hunting tho, so its not really an issue to conceal much as i usually have winter clothing on.

[Arkh]

And what do you do about it? Buy a gun and think, this will solve everything?
No you are all followers, sheeps. You do the stuff they tell you, with some sweet patriotic words from them.
You are under control and without a safety net (that the government refuse to provide) you cant do shit. Follow or be cast out.
So what I mean is it doesnt matter if you buy a gun or not. You are not in control. Having guns only make bad things happen more often.
Ok.
What are government composed of ? Humans.
What are the people you think have no control ? Humans.
Could you explain what's the difference which makes government members different from other humans ?

Last time I checked, genocides are mostly caused by governments.

[ABeard]

Could you explain what's the difference which makes government members different from other humans ?

They are generally fatter than most..... easier target?

[Dhig]

Ok.
What are government composed of ? Humans.
What are the people you think have no control ? Humans.
Could you explain what's the difference which makes government members different from other humans ?

Last time I checked, genocides are mostly caused by governments.

You could ofc go up to a politician and shoot him. That would probably show them that people are not following their commands anymore. Would that help?

No, own a gun doesnt make you have more to say in things then to not own a gun. So when ppl buy guns its just a way to be more secure and that says pretty much. Somewhere the government fails to provide the security ppl need.
So until the ppl demands more then they have they can just play with you as they please.

Buying guns as an insurance, what a joke.

[DeathByCactus]

And what do you do about it? Buy a gun and think, this will solve everything?
No you are all followers, sheeps. You do the stuff they tell you, with some sweet patriotic words from them.
You are under control and without a safety net (that the government refuse to provide) you cant do shit. Follow or be cast out.
So what I mean is it doesnt matter if you buy a gun or not. You are not in control. Having guns only make bad things happen more often.

What kind of euro crack are you smoking? No one tells people to buy guns, people like you tell us we should not, and any responsible gun owner knows guns don't solve any other problem than that asshole who breaks into your house at 3am when he thinks no one is home. You think we care wtf you have to say? Also, no one is ever in control. Not you, not your government, not god, not the devil. There is no control, only the appearance of control; you think you are in control of your life? You're in a delusional state of mind.

Having guns does not make bad things happen more often. Gun crimes represent less than 1% of the nations deaths. Please spare me your pathetic cries for the human race.

I will fight for the second amendment for the sole purpose that when the country that we love changes it's ideals (because things tend to do that, change) to something that is no longer worth fighting for, then it will be time to fight for something new. The fight against an oppressive government. Will that happen in my life time? No. However it is my job to make sure that my children and grand children will stand a chance if shit goes sour... Specifically if we get nuked 5 or 6 times and really, really, need them because there is no law and order.

So you can call me a sheep all you like, but YOU are also a sheep, YOU are the one who has been brainwashed to not understand the purpose and reason why the 2nd amendment even exists. To give the people a fighting chance against a rogue government, the right to an armed militia. YOU are the one who convinced yourself that will never happen, YOU are the one who is wrong sheep. At least my opinion is based off the history of thought that was put into the constitution. Your's is a pile of brainwashed bullshit that you got from family, friends, bad luck experiences, or forums.

You want something to blame, blame the King of England (historically).

[Arkh]

A government can't protect you h24.
When someone attack you, you haven't the time to call the police. And even if you can, how much do they need to get there ?
What if you're attacked by 4 or 5 people ? What if you're a 50kg woman against a 100k guy ? What if you can't run because you're in a weelchair ?
The best thing is for citizen to have the right to bear arms.

If you don't want to have one, no problem. But if you feel the need, you should be able to get one.
I don't know where you live, but I'm almost sure there are some locations you won't go at certain times because "it's dangerous".

[Carl Ragadamn]

Oh okay. Whose Matriel? :)

He's like the soup nazi for guns here on forumfall.

He also has like 24k+ posts on this forum I am guessing a third are gun related. (and a third freedom/libertarian agenda related, the final third being trolling)

[DeathByCactus]

He also has like 24k+ posts on this forum I am guessing a third are gun related. (and a third freedom/libertarian agenda related, the final third being trolling)

:cool: nice resume.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Some interesting links for Dhig (from the National Center for Policy Analysis):

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba246.html

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba102.html

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html

And one from a Medical Doctor (Psychiatrist):

http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm

[Matriel]

What the hell would you need customer service for? RFID chip? never heard that before, even if its true, that is easy enough problem to resolve.

Mechanical items break. If you don't have a government/military contract with HK they don't give a fuck about you.

Do a search on google. A couple guys posted on gun forums that they found RFID chips in their new HK pistols (with pics).

I also recommend the .45 cal or .38 super. I used to be a 9mm fan, but after my brother went to Iraq he told me some scary stories of how the 9mm doesn't always do the job in situations where your hands turn to mittens because your adrenaline is pumping so hard...


Military is only allowed to use FMJ ammo. You are not restricted to that unless you live in like New Jersey. Basing civilian concepts off of military applications is to be quite frank fucking retarded. You won't be going anywhere with a fire team. You won't have people laying down suppressing fire for you. Etc etc etc.

any gun made by steyr arms would be sexy and there pistols are good to

great combo of cost and quality

Steyr makes a quality pistol by all accounts I've seen. Only fired the 9mm one. I would worry about aftermarket accessories, holster availability, and the other things that go along with buying a lesser known and popular firearm.

Care to elaborate on this? I typically shoot 1911's but... Was thinking about the HK45C, I thought I had done my research but, never heard of this.

Go to THR or DC (the high road, defensive carry) forums and do some searches. HK is notorious for not giving a shit about their civilian customers. You usually see two camps on the issue. HK fanbois that don't care and people that won't buy their shit. Imo, it's overpriced anyway.

Check this link out. :)
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

HK couldn't even touch. :sly:

I like the seecamp .32
Seecamp (http://www.seecamp.com/products.htm)

its made to be durable. the frame is milled from one piece of stainless.

Personnaly i carry a snubnose .41 mag
I only carry when im hunting tho, so its not really an issue to conceal much as i usually have winter clothing on.

Seecamps are nice little pistols, but seem kinda like pocket bricks to me. I prefer the Kel-tecs for that reason, but then again they aren't made like tanks either.

You must be rich to shoot .41 mag a lot. :P

[Arintyll]

Polish the barrel and inside of the slide. That has helped quite a few "sticky" guns.

Specifically the feed ramp. My Colt model 70 was used when I bought it and hydroshok's were a bit sticky, I polished the feed ramp and problem solved.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Specifically the feed ramp. My Colt model 70 was used when I bought it and hydroshok's were a bit sticky, I polished the feed ramp and problem solved.

Forgot that. Yes, feed ramp would be quite important.

[DeathByCactus]

Military is only allowed to use FMJ ammo. You are not restricted to that unless you live in like New Jersey. Basing civilian concepts off of military applications is to be quite frank fucking retarded. You won't be going anywhere with a fire team. You won't have people laying down suppressing fire for you. Etc etc etc.

Go to THR or DC (the high road, defensive carry) forums and do some searches. HK is notorious for not giving a shit about their civilian customers. You usually see two camps on the issue. HK fanbois that don't care and people that won't buy their shit. Imo, it's overpriced anyway.

Check this link out. :)
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

HK couldn't even touch. :sly:


I was just saying in saying in terms of last resort not being with a fire team, but I hear what your saying. Should of clarified.

Thanks for the link/input.

[Dhig]

A government can't protect you h24.
When someone attack you, you haven't the time to call the police. And even if you can, how much do they need to get there ?
What if you're attacked by 4 or 5 people ? What if you're a 50kg woman against a 100k guy ? What if you can't run because you're in a weelchair ?
The best thing is for citizen to have the right to bear arms.

If you don't want to have one, no problem. But if you feel the need, you should be able to get one.
I don't know where you live, but I'm almost sure there are some locations you won't go at certain times because "it's dangerous".

I am not talking about instant reactions to the attacks. I am talking about control of firearms and that people that dont need them for a special purpose cant get them.
If that 50kg woman pulls out a gun against that guy that also have a gun I am sure one of them will die.
You can replace things but you cant replace a life.

Violence always feed more violence. You can not deny that. Just look at the cold war. That means using a gun to get respect is just stupid.

I am not against weapons. I am against using weapons for your own amusement.

[Arintyll]

Violence always feed more violence.

You are correct. So when someone uses violence against you, you have two choices. Get assaulted and possibly killed, or respond with an appropriate level of violence to diffuse the situation.

Allowing someone to brutally attack and kill you while you do nothing is an option, but i'm highly doubtful that it will move the violent offender to mend their ways, and then your family is deprived of your continued presence in their lives.

Drawing a gun causes most attackers to scurry off as they prefer weak and unarmed targets. If you do end up engaging the violent offender and killing him, you have just prevented someone else from having to make that same determination in the future. Once you have done such, do you honestly think you are going to go on a hormone fuled killing spree? Not gonna happen. The only possible escallation of the encounter at that point is if his friends decide to get payback. It happens, though rarely, and when it does it exposes the very violent people that need to be controlled where they were unknown beforehand.

Violence is a form of communication, and the only one some people respond to. Yeah it sucks but thats the way it is and its not going to change by disarming.

[DeathByCactus]

I am not talking about instant reactions to the attacks. I am talking about control of firearms and that people that dont need them for a special purpose cant get them.
If that 50kg woman pulls out a gun against that guy that also have a gun I am sure one of them will die.
You can replace things but you cant replace a life.

Violence always feed more violence. You can not deny that. Just look at the cold war. That means using a gun to get respect is just stupid.

I am not against weapons. I am against using weapons for your own amusement.

So if violence feeds more violence wtf is a 50kg women supposed to do against an asshole who is intent on killing her that she stands no chance against? Tell him she is a member of church and that violence is not the way while he's ripping her clothes off and fucking her chest with a screwdriver?

Using any weapon as a means of respect is a stupid idea. Self defense is not amusing, it's a scary fucking situation to be in. While violence feeds more violence, if you're in a situation where you are going to die using a firearm will stop that violence from happening to you; if you can get it out in time. What violence will come next? The family chasing you down and killing because their fucked up family member tried to kill you?

You are right about one thing though, You cannot replace a life. I got one chance at life for the rest of eternity. There is no after life, I am not going to have it wasted and would rather do everything in my power to stay alive. If that means I have to fight fire with fire and burn the world down to do it, your loss.

[Dhig]

So if violence feeds more violence wtf is a 50kg women supposed to do against an asshole who is intent on killing her that she stands no chance against? Tell him she is a member of church and that violence is not the way while he's ripping her clothes off and fucking her chest with a screwdriver?

Using any weapon as a means of respect is a stupid idea. Self defense is not amusing, it's a scary fucking situation to be in. While violence feeds more violence, if you're in a situation where you are going to die using a firearm will stop that violence from happening to you; if you can get it out in time. What violence will come next? The family chasing you down and killing because their fucked up family member tried to kill you?

You are right about one thing though, You cannot replace a life. I got one chance at life for the rest of eternity. There is no after life, I am not going to have it wasted and would rather do everything in my power to stay alive. If that means I have to fight fire with fire and burn the world down to do it, your loss.

I guess you are a bit younger then me and see it differently.

And ofc every criminal is after to abuse and stab women after they robbed their houses.
Thats how you see it.

I see it like this.
If that woman points a gun against that heavy criminal he is sure gonna pop her at the spot.
If she doesnt point a gun to him but let him take the stuff the chance is very much higher that he wont shoot her.

Your point is that she should protect herself with a big gun and point it at everything she feels threatened by.
Thus if that big guy comes into her house, she will pull up the gun and try to shoot him and he will will ofc try to kill her first because she is a threat.

I think you are a complete moron that think a gun will save your life if a criminal robs your house. It will more likely get you killed if that criminal also carry a gun.

[Matriel]

Dhig you might almost have a point except for 2 things.

1) Every country on this planet has gun crimes regardless of laws about guns. Prohibitions do not work. Ever in human history.

2) Many victims of crimes are dead even after complying with their attacker. Only a cowardly son of a bitch would ever suggest a smaller individual shouldn't be allowed the right tools to defend themselves with.

There's a saying in America. God made man, Samuel Colt made them equal.

Lol at can't take a life. What a fucking pussy.

I also love your retarded logic. Guns are too easy to kill people with, but if someone invades your house, you won't be able to use it correctly and will die. Well, which one is it?

I wish people would only comment on things they know anything about. Life would be awesome then.

[hostileEffect]

I think Dhig needs to look up the Joe Horn case...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy#Grand_jury

[Caffy]

Dhig you have convinced me! Shitbags can't be replaced, so we should go out of our way to preserve their right to murder, rape, and steal.

I'm selling all my guns and putting a big ass sign in my front yard that says "Unarmed Victim Inside, Please call to schedule your robbery/homicide" :bang:

[Dhig]

Dhig you might almost have a point except for 2 things.

There's a saying in America. God made man, Samuel Colt made them equal.

Lol at can't take a life. What a fucking pussy.

I also love your retarded logic. Guns are too easy to kill people with, but if someone invades your house, you won't be able to use it correctly and will die. Well, which one is it?

I wish people would only comment on things they know anything about. Life would be awesome then.

Retarded logic?

Your logic is retarded imo.

1) Every country on this planet has gun crimes regardless of laws about guns. Prohibitions do not work. Ever in human history.

2) Many victims of crimes are dead even after complying with their attacker. Only a cowardly son of a bitch would ever suggest a smaller individual shouldn't be allowed the right tools to defend themselves with.


1. Yes every country has gun crimes regardless of laws about guns. But no other country has so many people in jail and still so much criminal acts including weapons like america. So, yes, prohibitions work very nice thank you. If you gonna say something that stupid again try to add some stats to back it up.

2. Only an idiot would carry a gun to prevent themselves for being shot. Guns are made as a threat and not for fun. Point it at someone and they are threatened. Point it at someone with a gun and, yea, you figure out the rest.

And the most frightening thing is that people like yourself dont see the problem with the stupid second amendment.
Ask yourself why US is on first place in crimes all over the world. At the same time US has most people in jail.
And yes, that includes most gun crimes aswell.

[hostileEffect]

Last I heard, our prisons are full of weed users and illegal immigrants, they have to dump people right back onto the street...

[kordoyn]

Wait, did he just say that prohibitions work?

[Spart]

Wait, did he just say that prohibitions work?

He did actually. Amazing, isn't it.

Anyway, I would like more freedom to carry and operate guns in Australia, but I don't really expect that to ever happen.

[Matriel]

Retarded logic?

Your logic is retarded imo.

My logic doesn't contradict itself. So, again I will ask you. If guns are so easy to use to kill people, why then will all people using them to defend themselves die and not be able to do it properly? Which one is it because it can't be both.


1. Yes every country has gun crimes regardless of laws about guns. But no other country has so many people in jail and still so much criminal acts including weapons like america. So, yes, prohibitions work very nice thank you. If you gonna say something that stupid again try to add some stats to back it up.

Lol stats to back it up? You just said prohibitions work. Which is arguably the dumbest thing to be posted on these forums ever.

America's crime rates are related to the War on Drugs mostly, which is another failed prohibition. Tools are immaterial to that and only irrational morons would blame an inanimate object for crime rates. The US still has a higher murder rate than several other Western nations with non-firearms weapons alone.

2. Only an idiot would carry a gun to prevent themselves for being shot. Guns are made as a threat and not for fun. Point it at someone and they are threatened. Point it at someone with a gun and, yea, you figure out the rest.

Go read Armed Resistance to Crime by Gary Kleck. It details how more crimes are stopped with firearms by private citizens than are committed with them every year. Then shut the fuck up.

You should read this link because it describes you perfectly:
http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm

And the most frightening thing is that people like yourself dont see the problem with the stupid second amendment.
Ask yourself why US is on first place in crimes all over the world. At the same time US has most people in jail.
And yes, that includes most gun crimes aswell.

The US is first place in jailed citizens because of the War on Drugs.

There are 240,000,000+ guns in America and 10,000 murders with them each year. Do the math if it's not too difficult for your emotion rattled brain.

[Surly]

Guns are awesome.

[Arkh]

1. Yes every country has gun crimes regardless of laws about guns. But no other country has so many people in jail and still so much criminal acts including weapons like america. So, yes, prohibitions work very nice thank you. If you gonna say something that stupid again try to add some stats to back it up.
Only 9% of violent crimes (rape, assault, murder) involved firearms in the USA in 2005.
If you read statistics about murders and use only hose without firearms in the US, you get higher number than in some other countries (with and without guns) : the higher rate comes from other factor.

2. Only an idiot would carry a gun to prevent themselves for being shot. Guns are made as a threat and not for fun. Point it at someone and they are threatened. Point it at someone with a gun and, yea, you figure out the rest.
Well, if you're threatened by someone who have a gun, your chances are low (but a 10% chance of survival is better than 0). But if he doesn't, your gun will help you. Like if you're a small woman some thug want to rape. Or if you're attacked by 3 or 4 guys who just want to kick the shit out of you because you are black, or seem gay or whatever they don't like about you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

[Fro]

Which happens everywhere in America with the millions of private citizens that carry guns everyday. Oh wait, more irrational fears from moron Europeans that have never seen a firearm unless it was while they were conscript slaves for their governments.

Says an american who served in the marines.

[angelfang]

A thread about guns turning into a heated debate about gun laws. How shocking.

[Fro]

My logic doesn't contradict itself. So, again I will ask you. If guns are so easy to use to kill people, why then will all people using them to defend themselves die and not be able to do it properly? Which one is it because it can't be both.

Guns help stop crimes and could save your life, but they dont always save you and even if you have a gun you could still very easily be killed by a guy with another gun. Guns mainly stop robberies, assaults, rape but if someone wants to kill you chances are they will.

Lol stats to back it up? You just said prohibitions work. Which is arguably the dumbest thing to be posted on these forums ever.

Oh realy?

America's crime rates are related to the War on Drugs mostly, which is another failed prohibition. Tools are immaterial to that and only irrational morons would blame an inanimate object for crime rates. The US still has a higher murder rate than several other Western nations with non-firearms weapons alone.

Can you not comprehend that guns affect people?

Go read Armed Resistance to Crime by Gary Kleck. It details how more crimes are stopped with firearms by private citizens than are committed with them every year. Then shut the fuck up.

How about no.
You should read this link because it describes you perfectly:
http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm



The US is first place in jailed citizens because of the War on Drugs.

There are 240,000,000+ guns in America and 10,000 murders with them each year. Do the math if it's not too difficult for your emotion rattled brain

/Sigh.

Only 9% of violent crimes (rape, assault, murder) involved firearms in the USA in 2005.
If you read statistics about murders and use only hose without firearms in the US, you get higher number than in some other countries (with and without guns) : the higher rate comes from other factor.[QUOTE]

More guns means more gun crime. When you make it harder to obtain guns people will often switch to knifes or other things. Not realy much better.


America can keep its guns. I dont realy care.

[Jester814]

Dr. Numbers

Either pistol you choose is going to have an "exposed" hammer. If you carry a 1911 pistol for defensive carry, you'd better be carrying it cocked and locked and ready to go. If you have issues with carrying a cocked and safe 1911, you need to look at another gun platform for your concealed carry.

That said, I would hesitate greatly at carrying a 1911 production pistol out of the box. They have a reputation for unrealibility. Any gun you're going to use for self defense should have been shot around 500 rounds with few to zero malfunctions. I would not carry a pistol that can't go at least 500 rounds with no malfunctions. On my first(and only) 1911, a Springfield 1911A1 GI model, I couldn't get through a single magazine without a jam. I did some research and replaced the extractor myself, and since then have shoot around 1000 rounds with zero malfunctions. I try to keep with ball ammo because it supposedly feeds more reliably through a 1911, although the 100 or so rounds of hollow points I've shot through it haven't had a problem.

Between the guns you mentioned, and your fear of the 9mm not doing enough damage(.45 is higher dps?), I'd go with the .357 revolver and a couple of full moon clips and practice practice practice reloading with the moonclips.

And FWIW I'm a US Army certified Marksmanship instructor, and I concealed carry a sig p228 9mm.

But if I had my way and open carry didn't scare stupid people, I'd carry my USP .45 fullsize with me everywhere I went instead.

If you're still deadset on a small sized, single stack .45, I highly reccommend a SIG p245 or the new P220 compact. They will cost about half of that kimber and colt, and should work 100% right out of the box.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[DR.NUMBERS]

Dr. Numbers

Either pistol you choose is going to have an "exposed" hammer. If you carry a 1911 pistol for defensive carry, you'd better be carrying it cocked and locked and ready to go. If you have issues with carrying a cocked and safe 1911, you need to look at another gun platform for your concealed carry.

That said, I would hesitate greatly at carrying a 1911 production pistol out of the box. They have a reputation for unrealibility. Any gun you're going to use for self defense should have been shot around 500 rounds with few to zero malfunctions. I would not carry a pistol that can't go at least 500 rounds with no malfunctions. On my first(and only) 1911, a Springfield 1911A1 GI model, I couldn't get through a single magazine without a jam. I did some research and replaced the extractor myself, and since then have shoot around 1000 rounds with zero malfunctions. I try to keep with ball ammo because it supposedly feeds more reliably through a 1911, although the 100 or so rounds of hollow points I've shot through it haven't had a problem.

Between the guns you mentioned, and your fear of the 9mm not doing enough damage(.45 is higher dps?), I'd go with the .357 revolver and a couple of full moon clips and practice practice practice reloading with the moonclips.

And FWIW I'm a US Army certified Marksmanship instructor, and I concealed carry a sig p228 9mm.

But if I had my way and open carry didn't scare stupid people, I'd carry my USP .45 fullsize with me everywhere I went instead.

If you're still deadset on a small sized, single stack .45, I highly reccommend a SIG p245 or the new P220 compact. They will cost about half of that kimber and colt, and should work 100% right out of the box.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Yes,

I would put about 300-500 roounds through any gun before I relied on it. As for jams, I would polish the barrel and feed ramp for certain and if still unsure have someone more qualified look at it.

A Sig is looking pretty good right now but MAtriel and a friend in law enforcement have pretty much one me over as far as .45 vs 9mm is concerned.

The most attractive route is quickly shaping up to be a Sig in .40S&W.

As you say, a J-frame in .357 is also attractive. I could shout .357 or .38s out of a .357 if I wanted cheaper ammo. The only problem their is capacity.

[Matriel]

Says an american who served in the marines.

Fro, you're starting to be one of the most aggressively stupid people on these forums.

I volunteered. In Europe, most countries still use mandatory conscription. If you think there is no difference, please buy lots of riverbottom land from me.

Guns help stop crimes and could save your life, but they dont always save you and even if you have a gun you could still very easily be killed by a guy with another gun. Guns mainly stop robberies, assaults, rape but if someone wants to kill you chances are they will.

I was wondering when you'd pull your tail out from between your legs and jump into this emotion-first. Please go back and read his fucking argument again. It is directly contradictory. I can post news stories in this thread all fucking day of people that were attacked and still won against an opponent with a gun. You're just trying to inject your personal opinions into reality and it's still fucking hilarious.


Oh realy?

Yes really. Otherwise you'd have listed a prohibition that worked.


Can you not comprehend that guns affect people?

When did I say that they didn't? Maybe one day you'll learn how to read English.


How about no.
You should read this link because it describes you perfectly:
http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm

That link describes people like you. That love to tell others how to live their lives because they are such cowardly sissies that they can't fathom being responsible for themselves.


/Sigh.

Fro, even you with your lower than average Intelligence that somehow manages to bang out barely legible posts on a forum can do the simple math on 240,000,000+ firearms and the amount of them used in crimes. The percentage is so absurdedly low that only retards with political agendas would try and label it as a problem.

[Jester814]

Yes,

I would put about 300-500 roounds through any gun before I relied on it. As for jams, I would polish the barrel and feed ramp for certain and if still unsure have someone more qualified look at it.

A Sig is looking pretty good right now but MAtriel and a friend in law enforcement have pretty much one me over as far as .45 vs 9mm is concerned.

The most attractive route is quickly shaping up to be a Sig in .40S&W.

As you say, a J-frame in .357 is also attractive. I could shout .357 or .38s out of a .357 if I wanted cheaper ammo. The only problem their is capacity.

In that case, if i were you, I'd go p220 compact all the way :) I'm not a fan of .40 cal. It's either 9mm or .45 for me. Just an FYI. I own 6 pistols. One is 9mm and the rest are .45 ;) I just couldn't pass up a 15 and a 17 round mag in carry instead of 2 8 rounders. I do believe that .45 is a better all around round, but when you shoot someone in their heart or head with either caliber, they're gonna die.

That said, I'd carry a 6 rounder in the pistol with one in the chamber, and two spare 8 rounders if you get the 220.

And which sig .40 were you thinking about? the 239 or the 229? The only single stack caliber I would ever consider owning would be a .45, so the 239 is right out for me.