Str33t Fighting

[Axelator]

Since we apparantly have a lot of martial artists here I was wondering what you guys thought of this. Any of you who follow MMA at all will know who this guy is. WHat do you guys who do traditional martial artists think of this and I was wondering if we could get an experts view on it, is kebek still around?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVaTEPOsTA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqCgBEei0o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCox0f69a04&feature=related

[Everto]

I practice Shou Shu.

I don't think anybody on this forum knows what Shou Shu is without looking it up / asking anybody else for information.

And no, I haven't heard of this Bas.

[Axelator]

Bas Rutten MMA legend..... Most of the stuff in the video is taken from Krav Maga.

[[Malice]Bronson]

I know quite a bit about martial arts. I've taken Tang So Doo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga, Systema, and Some Kenpo/Jeet Kune Do/Judo/Boxing.



What are your goals, do you want a good street art to learn?



The Key to being able to handle yourself is first of all being in good cardiovascular shape, this elminates about 90% of people out there. The other 8% can be handled if you have a basic practice of some punching/throwing/kicking/vital striking knowledge and ability.


Basically if you want to be able to handle yourself, get a basic boxing course/book or dvd and start practicing punching. Get a heavy bag, speed bag, and practice on them. Jump rope/jog/bike/elliptical and get yourself into good cardiovascular shape, and work on low kicks. This is really all you need to be able to handle yourself with the average thug/idiot.

Or you could scrape for a Krav Maga DVD/VHS course. Its a very good system, but you need 2 people to practice it.

[Helgeran]

Bas Rutten is a bad as name. In swedish it would be "Base Rotten".

[Aragoni]

Who needs to fight anyway? Fighting is for poor people. I bribe people.

[Axelator]

Bronson;1561586']I know quite a bit about martial arts. I've taken Tang So Doo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga, Systema, and Some Kenpo/Jeet Kune Do/Judo/Boxing.



What are your goals, do you want a good street art to learn?



The Key to being able to handle yourself is first of all being in good cardiovascular shape, this elminates about 90% of people out there. The other 8% can be handled if you have a basic practice of some punching/throwing/kicking/vital striking knowledge and ability.


Basically if you want to be able to handle yourself, get a basic boxing course/book or dvd and start practicing punching. Get a heavy bag, speed bag, and practice on them. Jump rope/jog/bike/elliptical and get yourself into good cardiovascular shape, and work on low kicks. This is really all you need to be able to handle yourself with the average thug/idiot.

Or you could scrape for a Krav Maga DVD/VHS course. Its a very good system, but you need 2 people to practice it.

GReat thanks, but im not looking to take up martial arts, I already do Judo and kickboxing. Also I disagree with your cadio statement, most fight only last a few blows i'd say strength is much more important.

[Metal Wolf]

HAaaDOKen!

[Rancid727]

not really strength it's good to have. but speed is the most important aspect of fighting. knowing where to strike and when.

[Sprawlz]

Strength? If you got technique you don't need strength

[Lorthral]

My goal is to make it in MMA using a combination of traditional stand up fighting, Muay Thai leg kicks, wrestling, and BJJ. Sorta like Cung Le.

[Baal/Mrheat]

Who needs to fight anyway? Fighting is for poor people. I bribe people.

u pay ppl not to hit u? haha ok...

[Exodeus]

GReat thanks, but im not looking to take up martial arts, I already do Judo and kickboxing. Also I disagree with your cadio statement, most fight only last a few blows i'd say strength is much more important. I have to agree with [Malice]Bronson, having done almost a lifetime on a form of martial arts (full contact) I'd say having a basic comprehension on attacks, defence and counters, most fights will be won based on physical condition and some luck (for the inexperienced), else experience will kick in....

intelligence > stamina > strenght

[Rancid727]

what you need is a good combo of speed and strength and do not sac speed for
strength

[Lethn]

Bransons pretty damn right and so is this guy with most of the stuff said in the video I saw, some of the techniques I saw him doing I think are actually taught in the military. Thing is one thing I've noticed is the difference between martial arts and the more sport based martial arts like boxing, kickboxing or whatever is most of those focus on brute strength while the traditional martial arts styles seem to focus on using the opponents own strength against them or for instance attacking vital points or using strikes etc. to take them down, obviously it varies from style to style but you get the idea.

It all depends on what your aiming for personally really, it doesn't take much to learn some decent self-defense if you train regularly, usually the best combination though is to practice putting in strong blows until you naturally get faster that way you wouldn't end up messing up your techniques in a real fight. Thing is for the most part unless it's complete crap or your not taught properly all these techniques work that martial arts teach a lot of this stuff has just been obscured so badly by scammers, media and general cocky idiots that it's hard to tell which is realy and which isn't.

[Daarco]

:lmao:

Those old Bas Rutten videos have been laughed at for many years by the "Martial Art community".

A few years ago almost aný Martial Artis did a street fight survival guide video.

[Lethn]

Some of the stuff is genuine though Daarco, he clearly just got his experience from street fighting mainly.

[Aragoni]

u pay ppl not to hit u? haha ok...

Nonono.... You got this whole thing wrong. I pay people to fight the people that wants to fight me. That way I get maximum entertainment until Darkfall arrives.

[Daccus]

These videos remind me of flag pants from Napoleon Dynamite.

Rex Kwan Do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi3s64sJ04M)

[Axelator]

not really strength it's good to have. but speed is the most important aspect of fighting. knowing where to strike and when.

Strength is speed moron strong muscles move quickly and you do need strength and technique you cant get away with having perfect technique yet being as strong as a little girl contrary to popular beleif size does matter.

[Axelator]

Bransons pretty damn right and so is this guy with most of the stuff said in the video I saw, some of the techniques I saw him doing I think are actually taught in the military. Thing is one thing I've noticed is the difference between martial arts and the more sport based martial arts like boxing, kickboxing or whatever is most of those focus on brute strength while the traditional martial arts styles seem to focus on using the opponents own strength against them or for instance attacking vital points or using strikes etc. to take them down, obviously it varies from style to style but you get the idea.

.

But traditional martial arts dont work. Thats a big differance I always noticed TMA dosen't work in fights and MMA does work in fights. Thats why I choose modern martial arts.

[Rancid727]

Strength is speed moron strong muscles move quickly and you do need strength and technique you cant get away with having perfect technique yet being as strong as a little girl contrary to popular beleif size does matter.

You are the dumb ass here if you thank the stronger you are the faster you move. the more big ass Muscle you have it slows you down. as i said before you need Strength but you cant sac speed for more strength you complete retard:lmao:

[PrimalSign]

You are the dumb ass here if you thank the stronger you are the faster you move. the more big ass Muscle you have it slows you down. as i said before you need Strength but you cant sac speed for more strength you complete retard:lmao:

Where the hell did you learn about "fighting", anime? We move ourselves with power, hence strength = speed.

[Lethn]

But traditional martial arts dont work. Thats a big differance I always noticed TMA dosen't work in fights and MMA does work in fights. Thats why I choose modern martial arts.

Honestly? How don't they work? I've seen time and time again people going on about how traditional martial arts suck and how they're not applicable in 'real life fighting' ( sorry I just don't consider sparring in a small arena and following specific rules while wearing gloves real fighting ) but they never bother explaining it.

[[Malice]Bronson]

Really if you've ever been in a real fight, after the first 30 seconds most people are dead tired. Hence why I still believe that conditioning trumps everything.

[Helgeran]

Some of the stuff is genuine though Daarco, he clearly just got his experience from street fighting mainly.
From the sound of it he's mostly been beating up people drunker than himself.

[Kaorn]

Bronson;1561713']Really if you've ever been in a real fight, after the first 30 seconds most people are dead tired. Hence why I still believe that conditioning trumps everything.

I'm going to agree with this.

[Axelator]

You are the dumb ass here if you thank the stronger you are the faster you move. the more big ass Muscle you have it slows you down. as i said before you need Strength but you cant sac speed for more strength you complete retard:lmao:

the stronger you are the faster you move, you can gain strength without gaining mass idiot. If you eat enough calories to maintain your current body compisition (sp?) and weight and you strength train you will become stronger and faster.

[Axelator]

Bronson;1561713']Really if you've ever been in a real fight, after the first 30 seconds most people are dead tired. Hence why I still believe that conditioning trumps everything.

all the fights ive seen outsides pubs and over stupid little things are normally 1-5 punch affairs no cardio needed for that.

[Axelator]

Honestly? How don't they work? I've seen time and time again people going on about how traditional martial arts suck and how they're not applicable in 'real life fighting' ( sorry I just don't consider sparring in a small arena and following specific rules while wearing gloves real fighting ) but they never bother explaining it.

Go watch some of the early UFCs where countless TMA guys got their ass kicked. Im not saying they're all crap but most are. I tend to say any martial arts class that dosent spar at least once every class is bullshit. I mean proper sparring too not any of the point then break rubbish.

[Xinnro]

I use a gun. The most dependable form of martial art.

[Lethn]

Ah now on THAT I have to agree with you axe well done :p there is a LOT of shit there and I'll be the first to gladly say it and so will my teachers and they go off on rants sometimes about it too. Thing is though it's either a mixture of them not being taught properly or they're just simply crap and haven't been paying enough attention or trying to copy what they see on t.v, again a lot of the REAL traditional martial arts has been completely obscured by cocky idiots like this or the media.

Hell I can tell you now though that even though it's choreographed the moves Jackie Chan and the guy in Ong Bak pull off would work in real life, in fact I'm going to have a look and see if those videos your talking about are what I think they are.

Thing is also that because traditional martial arts uses a lot of strikes against vital points that are designed to kill more than anything it is pretty dangerous to use them in tournaments and there's all sorts of rules and such that are pretty limiting in a ring for folks like us.

[Axelator]

Hell I can tell you now though that even though it's choreographed the moves Jackie Chan and the guy in Ong Bak pull off would work in real life, in fact I'm going to have a look and see if those videos your talking about are what I think they are.

Thing is also that because traditional martial arts uses a lot of strikes against vital points that are designed to kill more than anything it is pretty dangerous to use them in tournaments and there's all sorts of rules and such that are pretty limiting in a ring for folks like us.

For fucks skae, no they wouldn't work in real life, what works in real life is keeping things as simple as possible which is where tranditonal martial arts fail badly. Also dont give me that rubbish about how you use deadly strikes, theres no such thing, and if they are so dangerous you cant practise them in sparring you wont be able to pull them off in real life because you've had no practise.

[Lethn]

They would work in real life they just wouldn't be very practical lol and the reason I'm saying a lot of the stuff can kill is because it's hitting vital points like under the arm, in the neck etc. also I don't know about Jackie Chan but the main character in Ong Bak was doing Muay Thai.

oh and I dunno if your talking specific videos by the way but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6IRTv18oA the guys just look like they're fucking brawling most of the time but there was one guy in a karate suit that was elbowing a guy holding him down in the head repeatedly.

Which leads me to my earlier point, why the hell wouldn't any of this stuff work in real life? It's the same as training in the military or preparing for an exam or practicing artwork, you practice it so often it becomes natural to you so you CAN do it in real life of course your not going to be able to do it in real life if you don't practice enough that's the whole point of regular practice in the first place, it all depends on the situation your in and your technique none of this "It's not possible" bullshit you can NEVER predict what's going to happen in a real fight.

[Axelator]

They would work in real life they just wouldn't be very practical lol and the reason I'm saying a lot of the stuff can kill is because it's hitting vital points like under the arm, in the neck etc. also I don't know about Jackie Chan but the main character in Ong Bak was doing Muay Thai.

oh and I dunno if your talking specific videos by the way but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6IRTv18oA the guys just look like they're fucking brawling most of the time but there was one guy in a karate suit that was elbowing a guy holding him down in the head repeatedly.

Which leads me to my earlier point, why the hell wouldn't any of this stuff work in real life? It's the same as training in the military or preparing for an exam or practicing artwork, you practice it so often it becomes natural to you so you CAN do it in real life of course your not going to be able to do it in real life if you don't practice enough that's the whole point of regular practice in the first place, it all depends on the situation your in and your technique none of this "It's not possible" bullshit you can NEVER predict what's going to happen in a real fight.

FUcking hell, I know the pressure point your talking about the one in the arm pit right? Newsflash hitting somone in the armpit wont kill them. I'd say the most dangerous place to hit under the arm are the floating ribs and it dosen;t take a genious to realise hitting somone in the neck can be lethal.

The main character in ong bak Tony jaa who I have a picture of in my room did do muay thai but he did the retarded old fashioned version which most thais have abandoned because it didn't work. If you honestly think things you see in movie fight scenes will work in real life I'm wasting my time.

As for why the early UFC look like brawls is because they are nearly all traditional marital artists who have never sparred before and revert back to instinctive fighting as they don't know how to apply their martial art to a real fight.

[Lethn]

wow for fucks sake, read what I said "They would work in real life they just wouldn't be very practical lol and the reason I'm saying a lot of the stuff can kill"

Look I even highlighted the bold points for you so you wouldn't have to strain your eyes trying to read one line and believe it, if that's the kind of reaction your going to give to anything that's said to you beyond "UFC/MMA roxorz!!!1111" then I'm the one wasting my time not you.

[Lachrymose]

For fucks skae, no they wouldn't work in real life, what works in real life is keeping things as simple as possible which is where tranditonal martial arts fail badly. Also dont give me that rubbish about how you use deadly strikes, theres no such thing, and if they are so dangerous you cant practise them in sparring you wont be able to pull them off in real life because you've had no practise.

there absolutely are such thing deadly strikes. there's enough vital areas on the body, and you can practice striking them, it's just a matter of being able to have enough control not to hit your partner with full force.

you seem to have traditional martial arts confused with something like xma. traditional martial arts keeps things pretty basic, it's the xma bullshit, where people are doing flips and flying spin kicks... basically the stuff that looks cool but isn't practical at all.

[Atnas]

What about flailing your arms all over the place, isn't that a fighting style?

"Stance of the wild octopus".

[Lethn]

Thanks Lachrymose you seem to have a lot more patience than me so why don't you take over? Honestly, I don't have the fucking patience to talk to people who won't read properly in a reasonable fashion.

[Apex Vertigo]

I have to agree with [Malice]Bronson, having done almost a lifetime on a form of martial arts (full contact) I'd say having a basic comprehension on attacks, defence and counters, most fights will be won based on physical condition and some luck (for the inexperienced), else experience will kick in....

intelligence > stamina > strenght

I guess if there is rules... I think it's kind of funny how all the people here (probably a scrawny majority) are ruling strength as the lowest of aspects in a fight, which is quite simply wrong.

[Lethn]

It depends on whether your talking about brute strength or just normal strength Apex if all you use is brute strength in a fight and act all tense then you'll get tired more and more quickly if you fight longer, that's why you need to relax and keep your form or you'll get into a brawl fest you can be on bloody steroids and look like the hulk and still get tired quickly if you don't control yourself right.

[Lachrymose]

I guess if there is rules... I think it's kind of funny how all the people here (probably a scrawny majority) are ruling strength as the lowest of aspects in a fight, which is quite simply wrong.

brute strength will sure help you some, but it won't win you a fight as often as intelligence (in a sense that you know how to fight, rather than just swinging at them) and speed.

speed is absolutely more important than strength when it comes to street fighting. it doesn't take much force to do some serious damage with a strike to the eyes, throat, temple, etc. but keep in mind, speed is one of the elements of strength (well, acceleration technically, but w/e) so as speed increases, so will the force behind your attacks.

now, if your goal isn't to kill the other person, then yes strength would be more important than speed, since most brawls will end up going to the ground. but being knowledgeable about ground fighting would be a better edge than strength (unless maybe the dude's 2x bigger than you), since arm bars and joint locks don't require strength, they're more about position and leverage.

strength is probably the best thing to have in a fight between 2 people that have no martial arts training, since they will just be swinging haymakers and wrestling each other to the ground anyways.

[Apex Vertigo]

It depends on whether your talking about brute strength or just normal strength Apex if all you use is brute strength in a fight and act all tense then you'll get tired more and more quickly if you fight longer, that's why you need to relax and keep your form or you'll get into a brawl fest.

Well, let me take the statement I quoted for example and put it into perspective.

"Intelligence > Stamina > Strength"

Now, let's put a really smart guy (tactically) who also has a good stamina level. The only problem is, he bench presses about 110 and is a more or less a toothpick. He can have all the fighting techniques in the world but nothing is going to save him when he goes up against a Juggernaut of a man who benches 400 pounds and eats steel for breakfast.

Perhaps it works if they are of similar strength.. but strength still plays a big role. Also, I find all these martial art techniques a bit 'showy', anyone who has ever had more than 1 or 2 actual fights in their life time knows none of these techniques are helpful. All that matters is your strength + ability to keep a clear mind, other than that endurance of pain and stamina will play a minor role... but let's face it, in a 'brawl' type situation you aren't going to be pulling some kind of death strike and they don't last several rounds in which you will get too tired to fight unless you've had practice, at least very rarely would that happen.

[Lethn]

Oh I agree with you there yes, if someone who's had martial arts training and goes up against an absolutely huge guy then he's going to have a lot of trouble unless he's either pretty damn experienced or he's agile enough to dodge most of the blows the big guy would take. Again though, it all depends on the situations that are completely unpredictable that's why I say all this possible and impossible crap is a load of bullshit because you just simply can't predict what's going to happen in a real fight.

Another factor is also if the martial arts learned is actually specifically designed to go up against targets much bigger than the user, if they use the right techniques then they could end up using the big guys own strength against them, again so many unpredictable occurances that most people just don't pay any attention to.

[Lachrymose]

ok, if your up against a guy 4x stronger than you, then yea, you're in trouble. but by the same token, what if a guy who can bench 400 is up against a guy that benches 110, but is 4x faster (can't imagine this would ever happen, but it's to make a point)? i don't care if he can bench 400 lbs or 1000 lbs, he'll never be able to touch the other guy.

and trust me apex, i've seen some small guys destroy guys plenty bigger than them b/c they were fast and had been in scraps before.

strength, stamina, speed, and experience are all important, and if you don't have any one of them, you'll be in trouble against someone that is balanced in all 4. balance is key.

[Lethn]

Lachrymose what flipping martial art do you do? You seem to have a hell of a lot of experience with this sort of thing :D

[Lachrymose]

Lachrymose what flipping martial art do you do? You seem to have a hell of a lot of experience with this sort of thing :D

i've taken shotokan karate for 12 years, and i've been a shotokan instructor for 6 years. i wrestled for 3 years, although not really a "martial art," but certain elements translate to grappling (not the one of "don't go to your back" though). i did a couple years of muay thai and wing chun (bruce lee's first martial art, jkd is based off wing chun). the whole concept of wing chun is using your structure rather than your strength to defeat an opponent, which is why wing chun is named after the first student of this martial art form, a young girl who used it to defeat a burly man who she didn't want to marry.

other than that, i've learned some jiu jitsu and grappling from people, as well as some other random self defense, like military or police training (not so much though, i just know a guy that's done about every martial art ever and was in the military, and he's taught me a lot of various stuff).

[Lethn]

Seriously? That's pretty awesome, I do Shotokan karate myself as well haven't really bothered grading though I should, my teachers tell me if I had kept at it properly I could've been a second degree black belt by now but I was just more interested in training heh. I recently found out that my last grading was about 5 years ago and I've been training longer than that ( wtf?! ) I honestly though I'd been training for only a couple of years or something. I've dabbled a bit in mixed ju-jitsu and done some medieval weapons training but none of them really have held my interest for long.

[-Havoc-]

i've taken shotokan karate for 12 years, and i've been a shotokan instructor for 6 years. i wrestled for 3 years, although not really a "martial art," but certain elements translate to grappling (not the one of "don't go to your back" though). i did a couple years of muay thai and wing chun (bruce lee's first martial art, jkd is based off wing chun). the whole concept of wing chun is using your structure rather than your strength to defeat an opponent, which is why wing chun is named after the first student of this martial art form, a young girl who used it to defeat a burly man who she didn't want to marry.

other than that, i've learned some jiu jitsu and grappling from people, as well as some other random self defense, like military or police training (not so much though, i just know a guy that's done about every martial art ever and was in the military, and he's taught me a lot of various stuff).

So what to you recommend for a starting martial art style for, let's say, someone who weighs 230, weight lifts regularly, pretty muscular, and is all around awesome?

[Rashgar]

Havoc, First thing you need to do, is Pull ups, Dead hang, no kipping for momentum. Strech your muscles out. Shoulder width on the bar. Full range of motion with power at all points.

And start running. Get your heart in shape. Ill use the USMC as an example since thats what I know. Train to run 6 minute miles. Get your heart in shape. 3 Miles in 18 mins is not that hard.

Then start in on defensive training. Dont think your a bad ass, learn to protect yourself. I have been Brused from elbow to wrist before blocking knife attacks in training sessions.

Then learn strikes after a block. Counterattacks weight manipulation.

And if you block the first attack, (we are in the age of camera's) you dont go to jail.

[antihero-zero]

Since we apparantly have a lot of martial artists here I was wondering what you guys thought of this. Any of you who follow MMA at all will know who this guy is. WHat do you guys who do traditional martial artists think of this and I was wondering if we could get an experts view on it, is kebek still around?

Expert opinion? What? Aren't we on a video game forum?

But traditional martial arts dont work. Thats a big differance I always noticed TMA dosen't work in fights and MMA does work in fights. Thats why I choose modern martial arts.

Well if you've already made up your mind about all of this, I guess you weren't really asking for anyone's opinion sincerely, you were merely trolling. Pretty clever.

all the fights ive seen outsides pubs and over stupid little things are normally 1-5 punch affairs no cardio needed for that.

I notice that all of your examples for these opinions you have are based on UFC or bar fights you've watched, but not participated in. So since I've seen Rambo, I can fight 200 Vietcong and win, right?

-------

Thank god you made this "UFC rulez!" thread, because the first few billion of those on the Internet lacked the articulation you've brought to the table here.

[Lachrymose]

But traditional martial arts dont work. Thats a big differance I always noticed TMA dosen't work in fights and MMA does work in fights. Thats why I choose modern martial arts.

just to clarify... you do know that MMA stands for mixed martial arts, right? as in, a mixture of many traditional forms of martial arts. yes, some have been adapted, like jiu jitsu, but i don't see where you get off saying traditional martial arts "don't work"...

you asked for expert opinion, but you reject what you hear, and then you act as if you're the expert. :rolleyes:

[Axelator]

The guy above seems to lack the ability to sense sarcsm.

Lots of you seem to have skipped P.E. class.

Strength is Speed! There are two types of muscle fiber, fast twitch and slow twitch, strength training affects the fast twitch muscle fibres and makes you more able to do quick explosive moves such as kicks and punches. You can get stronger without putting on mass so improving your strength also improves your speed, as long as you don't put on mass.

I also did Shotokan Karate and I Was good I got medals for the katas and sparring, I was a purple belt. Then once I got in a real fight with a guy about the same size as me I did my round house kicks just like in the sparring and they did fuck all and I got my ass kicked.

Since I've taken up more sporting maritla arts that spar regulary I must of been in more fights than I can remember and I havent lost. Make of that what you will.

[Lachrymose]

The guy above seems to lack the ability to sense sarcsm.

Lots of you seem to have skipped P.E. class.

Strength is Speed! There are two types of muscle fiber, fast twitch and slow twitch, strength training affects the fast twitch muscle fibres and makes you more able to do quick explosive moves such as kicks and punches. You can get stronger without putting on mass so improving your strength also improves your speed, as long as you don't put on mass.

I also did Shotokan Karate and I Was good I got medals for the katas and sparring, I was a purple belt. Then once I got in a real fight with a guy about the same size as me I did my round house kicks just like in the sparring and they did fuck all and I got my ass kicked.

Since I've taken up more sporting maritla arts that spar regulary I must of been in more fights than I can remember and I havent lost. Make of that what you will.

first off... the first person who brought up strength was obviously not distinguishing between the two. so yes, you're right, but you're really just getting into semantics.

secondly, the reason you got your ass kicked is b/c you tried to do a fucking round house kick in a real fight. that's not much better than trying to do a spinning hook kick. it might work in sparring, but that doesn't mean it's functional in a real fight. shotokan is a competitive martial art, so it's more meant to be a sport than to be functional in a street fight. muay thai kicks are much more practical than a shotokan roundhouse kick, but that doesn't mean a lot can't be learned in a style like shotokan. spinning hook kicks aren't functional, but if you can master the coordination and balance it takes to pull one off in a sparring match, you've obviously gained something.

[Axelator]

first off... the first person who brought up strength was obviously not distinguishing between the two. so yes, you're right, but you're really just getting into semantics.

secondly, the reason you got your ass kicked is b/c you tried to do a fucking round house kick in a real fight. that's not much better than trying to do a spinning hook kick. it might work in sparring, but that doesn't mean it's functional in a real fight. shotokan is a competitive martial art, so it's more meant to be a sport than to be functional in a street fight. muay thai kicks are much more practical than a shotokan roundhouse kick, but that doesn't mean a lot can be learned in a style like shotokan. spinning hook kicks aren't functional, but if you can master the coordination and balance it takes to pull one off in a sparring match, you've obviously gained something.

yeah you've gained the ability to do a spinning back hook kick when a high roundhouse would of done, taken half the time and be just as powerful, then you could of spent the rest of the time you wasted doing spinning hook kicks doing sparring and learning to apply that roundhouse kick.

[Lachrymose]

yeah you've gained the ability to do a spinning back hook kick when a high roundhouse would of done, taken half the time and be just as powerful, then you could of spent the rest of the time you wasted doing spinning hook kicks doing sparring and learning to apply that roundhouse kick.

you've also gained the coordination and balance required to pull it off.. i guess you didn't read that part since it wasn't beneficial to your argument.

anyways, there are definitely times in sparring where a spinning hook kick works much better then a roundhouse kick since the mechanics of the two are much different (roundhouse kick the leg extends, but a hook kick can be bent at the end to maneuver around an incoming punch for instance). you did shotokan til you were a purple belt, so i highly doubt you're qualified to analyze the sport. you're obviously a very stubborn and ignorant person, so i'm not gonna fight with you on this anymore since there's really not much point.

[PaleOne]

Haven't we discussed this a million times ....

I teach MMA for a living and have had my own school for 13 years.

Bas Rutten is an ex Pankrase champion, he is legitimate.

other than that to settle the rest of the arguments..

1 Fighting is an endurance sport.
2 Strikes against vital points cannot be practiced against live opponenets at full speed with resistance so you cannot develop the timing to apply them.
3 Guns are great equalizers, that is why I shoot in IDPA competitions, but you don't have them with you 24 hours a day
4 Everyone needs an understanding of both striking and grappling.

[Lachrymose]

so by axelator's logic, if you study a martial art, you've wasted your time, since you could have spent that time learning how to shoot a gun or knife fight. there are many other benefits to practice martial arts besides just being better at fighting, axelator.

[Axelator]

so by axelator's logic, if you study a martial art, you've wasted your time, since you could have spent that time learning how to shoot a gun or knife fight. there are many other benefits to practice martial arts besides just being better at fighting, axelator.

If all your doing martial arts for then yes go buy a gun. However where I'm from thats not legal and neither is carrying a decent knife so martial arts are the best way to learn how to defend yourself, if you don't want to run the risk of being arested.

If you just want to learn an ancient art form take up some traditional martial arts just dont then come and claim you can use it to any sucess in a real fight. It will marginally improve your fitness.

If you want to become good at actual fighting take up competitive martial arts that lead on to full contact sparring, it's much harder physically and mentally in my experience. A steep learning curb to begin with but you will know how to fight.

[Lethn]

lovely that just proved how ignorant you are Axelator, kinda makes me glad I lost my patience with you there was no argument in that post all you did was boast how a certain way in martial arts was the right way.

And I thought you weren't going to bother anymore? Way to make yourself look like a complete troll.

[alphawolf]

who honestly gives a shit if someone knows how to fight? you arent going to land yourself in many 1vs1 confrontations unless you actively bully people or engage in a fight of your own accord. If you are assaulted or held up, chances are the guy isnt going to be alone and even if he is, there is a high chance that he's going to have a deadly weapon on him anyway. The best defense is not being a moron and being aware. Counting on MA to save you is a waste of time and not a viable option for anyone living in a very tough neighborhood. Keep looking for a fight and you will eventually find it; Pray you don't lose your life in the process, though I'll be hoping otherwise.

[Lethn]

qft alphawolf trainings designed to help you in a fight, it's not designed to take over, that's why you learn self-control so you don't get yourself into shit.

[Axelator]

lovely that just proved how ignorant you are Axelator, kinda makes me glad I lost my patience with you there was no argument in that post all you did was boast how a certain way in martial arts was the right way.

And I thought you weren't going to bother anymore? Way to make yourself look like a complete troll.

Yes that’s because I 100% believe modern sporting martial arts are the best way to learn how to fight. Just in case you hadn’t picked up on that, because I believe and know that makes me ignorant or a troll?

I've done traditional martial arts I’ve done mixed martial arts surely this puts me in the best position to make a choice on which is most effective in an actual fight? If anything I thought this would make me the opposite to ignorant, knowledgeable.

[Nasty]

I always carry a small axe when I am out drinking

[Axelator]

I always carry a small axe when I am out drinking

Your joking, but my friend was attacked by some Polish guy with a hatchet, luckily he ran away, but shit like that does happen.

[Nasty]

I was was once forced to lay face down on the ground with this crazy machete wielding psycho drug dealer wearing a blood drenched t-shirt screaming at me. We were gonna buy alot of drugs, some crazy bitch let us in the appartment, unfortunately our contact was out cold and the psycho who came home owning the horrible place refused to let us go because he didn't know who we were. He behaved really fucking schizo delusional wielding a big fucking machete.

I would probably have sucked his dick if he commanded me to, I was so fucking scared I nearly pissed my pants.

My personal strategy whenever I am faced with bad odds is to do whatever the guy holding the superior weapon tells you to. Fuck pride.

I avoid shitty situations at all costs, only been in one fight during my entire adult life. 3 guys giving my buddy a hard time outside a club, he headbutted one guy a broken nose, I took one guy aside to try and calm things down, he refused and started pushing me, I took two fast steps towards him and landed a punch straight in his face sending him to the ground. The police then arrived and our friends, the club owners, had the other guys arrested. I lol'ed as we totally cooled down when the police came, but they couldn't manage their tempers and got arrested.

I don't plan on getting into streetfights or ridiculous ghetto scenarios ever again. People who seek out streetfights are fucking retarded, if you have the option to just say fuck it, do it. Otherwise you are a fucking idiot.

[Kaorn]

I was was once forced to lay face down on the ground with this crazy machete wielding psycho drug dealer wearing a blood drenched t-shirt screaming at me. We were gonna buy alot of drugs, some crazy bitch let us in the appartment, unfortunately our contact was out cold and the psycho who came home owning the horrible place refused to let us go because he didn't know who we were. He behaved really fucking schizo delusional wielding a big fucking machete.

I would probably have sucked his dick if he commanded me to, I was so fucking scared I nearly pissed my pants.

What the Fuck?

That's not something you tell other people.

[Nasty]

What the Fuck?

That's not something you tell other people.

why not

[PrimalSign]

What the Fuck?

That's not something you tell other people.

I think he has told it before too. At least it seems very familiar.

[Jathen]

Strength? If you got technique you don't need strength

This is 100% incorrect.


Edit* OH GOD IS LETHN IN THIS THREAD....

[Nasty]

I think he's told it before too. At least it seems very familiar.

ye, was a "scariest experience of your life" or something thread

[Axelator]

This is 100% incorrect.

Yeah well Georgian military had good technique and I seem to remember Russia ramming its foot up its arse and twisting.

Edit: This comment might not work if your from Georgia U.S.

[Kaorn]

why not

It's just so wild and crazy, I don't think I can ever look at you the same way.

[Nasty]

It's just so wild and crazy, I don't think I can ever look at you the same way.

dont we have a bunch of ppl on these forums who've been to iraq and afghanistan etc, i think they have a slight edge

[antihero-zero]

I've done traditional martial arts I’ve done mixed martial arts surely this puts me in the best position to make a choice on which is most effective in an actual fight? If anything I thought this would make me the opposite to ignorant, knowledgeable.

This has been a wonderful self-promotion thread. Not only are you knowledgeable, but you're modest too. What are your other good qualities, in alphabetical order please?

[Axelator]

This has been a wonderful self-promotion thread. Not only are you knowledgeable, but you're modest too. What are your other good qualities, in alphabetical order please?

Large Penis, thats about it really. So yes I am modest. In fact i'm going to pick bits out of what you said and put it in my sig to make it look like people like me. Fool! The purpose of this thread has been acheived.

[Jathen]

Lethn, I couldn't even finish reading your posts. Answer this question honestly to your self: Do you really believe that you traditional stuff will work. When you begin to get those chills go up and down your spine when you think a confrontation is going to happen, are you confident that your knifehand or spinning kick is really going to help you?

MMA isn't like a street fight, there are ref's and rules. But it is the closest thing to it that we can see. The truth is, nothing prepares you for a knife attack, not ancient Karate/Kung Fu techniques, Reality based stuff or BJJ. However, MMA is the only thing we have as far as evidence of what really works. Ken Shamrock and Royce gracie both fought Kung Fu and Karate masters and the results were the same, they weren't killed by the death touch or a karate chop to the throat, they won...easily. It was no contest.

I have been a Martial Artist for 15 years. I am a level 1 Boxing and Thai Boxing Instructor and an ameature MMA Fighter. Im begging you guys, stop training traditional martial arts. It's a scam. It doesn't work. Never will. Accept the fact that you have wasted your time and move on to boxing, Thai Boxing or BJJ. You won't learn death moves or vital point strikes but you will learm how to fight and you will be confident in what you do, because you are actually doing it.

[Lachrymose]

I've done traditional martial arts I’ve done mixed martial arts surely this puts me in the best position to make a choice on which is most effective in an actual fight?

you did shotokan til you were a purple belt, like i said before, your hardly qualified to say you know much about traditional martial arts, and even then, maybe you just had a shitty instructor.

and i wouldn't say you're in the best position to do anything, as i've been doing various martial arts of all kinds for the past 12 years, and i've taught martial arts for the past 6 years (mostly shotokan, but i've taught some mma too) and i'm sure there are still others here that have done more than me. furthermore, if you're such a hotshot, why are you making a thread to ask for advice from 'experts'? then when people tell you something, you say they're wrong and claim you're the expert. that makes a lot of sense.

anyways, i never said mixed martial arts aren't better than traditional martial arts to train for fighting (it doesn't even fuckin make sense to say that, since mixed martial arts incorporate traditional martial arts. it's like saying fruit is better than bananas, but w/e i'm trying to follow your irrational logic).

mixed implies several styles have been put together. same logic as two heads are better than one. they take the things from the different martial arts that make them good for combat, then they create a combat sport around it, so of course mma is good for fighting. all i said was, traditional martial arts aren't worthless. some of them may have less use than others, shotokan is one of them. also, keep in mind, shotokan was created long after muay thai was, so while muay thai is traditional, shotokan is relatively new.

i don't know why you're so concerned with being good at fighting anyways. you want to just go around brawling people? if you really want to get better at defending yourself, you're wasting your time with judo and kickboxing. i'd agree that kickboxing is better than shotokan for practical purposes (although it's not that much better), but there are way more practical ways to train fighting. krav maga, for instance, as well as any military combat training, etc.

[Lachrymose]

MMA isn't like a street fight, there are ref's and rules.

this said it all. axelator, if you really want to be "good at fighting" join the military. then you'll be able to tell everyone that you're hardcore and can kill people, since that's obviously your whole motivation for taking martial arts. i remember when i was 10 and i wanted to take martial arts for similar reasons.

[Axelator]

this said it all. axelator, if you really want to be "good at fighting" join the military. then you'll be able to tell everyone that you're hardcore and can kill people, since that's obviously your whole motivation for taking martial arts. i remember when i was 10 and i wanted to take martial arts for similar reasons.

I like how you hand picked that quote to make it look like he was agreeing with you.

Whats wrong with enjoying a fight? IS that such a bad thing when both sides want to fight? Thats what sport fighting is about. I don't need moral guidence or dicipline from martial arts I have my parents to do that, I don't want to learn some ancient art I just want to know how to fight and enjoy it, what the fucks wrong with that and who are you to tell me thats wrong? Why try and force your snobery onto others?

Im saying do traiditonal martial arts if you like, but accept in a real fight they will be worth enxt to nothing.

[antihero-zero]

Large Penis, thats about it really. So yes I am modest. In fact i'm going to pick bits out of what you said and put it in my sig to make it look like people like me. Fool! The purpose of this thread has been acheived.

Don't forget being great at English. Not only has the purpose of this thread been achieved, but you've won at life. You sir, are a winner.

If only we could give crayons to all the MMA fighters of the world (really big crayons for their beefy fingers) then more people could read your message. We need to find a way to unite the world into one mostly naked, oily, homoerotic, man-on-man wrestling match carried out in the center of an impressive geometric shape! Something less confusing for the athletes though, like a circle. No more getting lost in the corner, eh?

[Apex Vertigo]

Lethn, I couldn't even finish reading your posts. Answer this question honestly to your self: Do you really believe that you traditional stuff will work. When you begin to get those chills go up and down your spine when you think a confrontation is going to happen, are you confident that your knifehand or spinning kick is really going to help you?

MMA isn't like a street fight, there are ref's and rules. But it is the closest thing to it that we can see. The truth is, nothing prepares you for a knife attack, not ancient Karate/Kung Fu techniques, Reality based stuff or BJJ. However, MMA is the only thing we have as far as evidence of what really works. Ken Shamrock and Royce gracie both fought Kung Fu and Karate masters and the results were the same, they weren't killed by the death touch or a karate chop to the throat, they won...easily. It was no contest.

I have been a Martial Artist for 15 years. I am a level 1 Boxing and Thai Boxing Instructor and an ameature MMA Fighter. Im begging you guys, stop training traditional martial arts. It's a scam. It doesn't work. Never will. Accept the fact that you have wasted your time and move on to boxing, Thai Boxing or BJJ. You won't learn death moves or vital point strikes but you will learm how to fight and you will be confident in what you do, because you are actually doing it.

Thank you... one person that sees all that flashy BS for what it is.

[kordoyn]

Playing the spoons and triangle at the same time is the surest way to avoid a fight. If by some divine miracle from Jesus' bowels you do get into a scrap anyway, you can offer the spoon to the guy for him to eat your ass with.

[Lachrymose]

I like how you hand picked that quote to make it look like he was agreeing with you.

thanks. :D

Whats wrong with enjoying a fight? IS that such a bad thing when both sides want to fight? Thats what sport fighting is about. I don't need moral guidence or dicipline from martial arts I have my parents to do that, I don't want to learn some ancient art I just want to know how to fight and enjoy it, what the fucks wrong with that and who are you to tell me thats wrong? Why try and force your snobery onto others?

Im saying do traiditonal martial arts if you like, but accept in a real fight they will be worth enxt to nothing.

let me just summarize what i said since i'm not even disagreeing with most of what you said, but for some reason you got all pissy.

i'll agree with you that mma is better for fighting than what you keep referring to as "traditional martial arts." i disagreed that traditional martial arts are totally worthless. when you say that mixed martial arts help you in fighting, you're saying traditional martial arts do, since mma is a combination of martial arts that were developed many years ago. i honestly think the reason we're disagreeing here is because you don't seem to know what the fuck traditional martial arts are.

example: muay thai got it's origins from the martial arts tought to thai soldiers to help them in battle. over time, it became a sport, starting off as bare knuckled and then they added gloves. so, if anything the "traditional" version of muay thai (called krabi krabong i think) was better suited for battle, since that's what it was designed for. and as it became modernized, it became a sport, so it's effectiveness is less useful than the traditional forms, although that's not to say they aren't useful. i think they are and muay thai is probably my favorite martial art that i've taken as well as the most practical.

i don't care if you want to be able to defend yourself, but if you do, kickboxing isn't the best way to do it. yes, kickboxing/jiujitsu are probably some of the best sports to practice fighting, but that's all they are, sports. krav maga, on the other hand, is not a sport, since the goal of it is to kill the other person (you can't really make a sport out of that... well, i guess technically you could but...)

[Axelator]

I understand what a tma is but I dont beleive most mma'ist incorporate them into their "mix" most fighters use boxing/kickboxing/BJJ/wrestling/Thai boxing (arguably a TMA).

So out of all of them only one could even possibly be considered a traditional martial art, the rest are all updated versions of traditional martial arts and I can call the old version shit and new version good just like I can say potatoes taste disgusting but chips taste good, just because kickboxing came from karate dosen't automatically mean I have to beleive Karate is good.

[antihero-zero]

So out of all of them only one could even possibly be considered a traditional martial art, the rest are all updated versions of traditional martial arts and I can call the old version shit and new version good just like I can say potatoes taste disgusting but chips taste good, just because kickboxing came from karate dosen't automatically mean I have to beleive Karate is good.

I simply don't know which is more impressive here, your ability to make this entire 'statement' (and I use that term loosely) as part of one massive run-on sentence, or your brilliant simile about potato chips.

[Lachrymose]

I understand what a tma is but I dont beleive most mma'ist incorporate them into their "mix" most fighters use boxing/kickboxing/BJJ/wrestling/Thai boxing (arguably a TMA).

So out of all of them only one could even possibly be considered a traditional martial art, the rest are all updated versions of traditional martial arts and I can call the old version shit and new version good just like I can say potatoes taste disgusting but chips taste good, just because kickboxing came from karate dosen't automatically mean I have to beleive Karate is good.

whoa whoa whoa... wrestling isn't traditional? wrestling's been around since BC.

muay thai is kickboxing, but oh well.

boxing, yes it was turned into a sport not that long ago, so i guess i'll give you that one, even though i'm sure it's based off some traditional form of combat. :rolleyes:

and bjj is in the same boat as thai boxing. it originates from a "traditional" form that was developed by the samurai to make it into a sport. like muay thai, it was too lethal traditionally, so they changed it a little to make it a sport.

[Jathen]

whoa whoa whoa... wrestling isn't traditional? wrestling's been around since BC.

muay thai is kickboxing, but oh well.

boxing, yes it was turned into a sport not that long ago, so i guess i'll give you that one, even though i'm sure it's based off some traditional form of combat. :rolleyes:

and bjj is in the same boat as thai boxing. it originates from a "traditional" form that was developed by the samurai to make it into a sport. like muay thai, it was too lethal traditionally, so they changed it a little to make it a sport.

I don't even have time to go over how many fallacies are in this post. Will have to come back tomorrow.

[Parabola]

[QUOTE=Lorthral;1561619]My goal is to make it in MMA using a combination of traditional stand up fighting, Muay Thai leg kicks, wrestling, and BJJ. Sorta like Cung Le.[/QUOT

Cung Le does not utilize BJJ.

[Parabola]

I understand what a tma is but I dont beleive most mma'ist incorporate them into their "mix" most fighters use boxing/kickboxing/BJJ/wrestling/Thai boxing (arguably a TMA).

So out of all of them only one could even possibly be considered a traditional martial art, the rest are all updated versions of traditional martial arts and I can call the old version shit and new version good just like I can say potatoes taste disgusting but chips taste good, just because kickboxing came from karate dosen't automatically mean I have to beleive Karate is good.

The extremely elite practioners of Karate in MMA are some of the best fighters the sport has to offer i.e. Lyoto Machida, Georges St. Pierre. There just hasnt been alot of people who are as good as them at incorporating it into their MMA game.

[Axelator]

whoa whoa whoa... wrestling isn't traditional? wrestling's been around since BC.

muay thai is kickboxing, but oh well.

boxing, yes it was turned into a sport not that long ago, so i guess i'll give you that one, even though i'm sure it's based off some traditional form of combat. :rolleyes:

and bjj is in the same boat as thai boxing. it originates from a "traditional" form that was developed by the samurai to make it into a sport. like muay thai, it was too lethal traditionally, so they changed it a little to make it a sport.

Most of what you said in this is garbage.

[Axelator]

The extremely elite practioners of Karate in MMA are some of the best fighters the sport has to offer i.e. Lyoto Machida, Georges St. Pierre. There just hasnt been alot of people who are as good as them at incorporating it into their MMA game.

Don't they do hardcore krate I can't remember its name but the one where they spar full contact with no gloves but no punches to the face, like I said not all traditional martial arts suck, just most of them. Also didn't St. Pierre just do Karate when he was a kid? I dont think he really used it in his mma career?

[Fluffington]

I learned everything I know about street fighting from Street Fighter, nothing beats a hadouken!

[Kusghuul]

Now, where was that link to the Boxer Rebellion...

[Lachrymose]

Most of what you said in this is garbage.

lol, why? because lathen said it was?

[Axelator]

lol, why? because lathen said it was?

whos lathen?

[Lachrymose]

whos lathen?

jathen.

anyways, the point is. most martial arts were developed in times of war or to help out soldiers. jiu jitsu, karate, krav maga, muay thai... but then these traditional styles were adapted into sport forms.

shotokan, btw, isn't traditional. it's one of the forms of combat that was adapted into a competetive sport.

[Barbarossa]

Since we apparantly have a lot of martial artists here I was wondering what you guys thought of this.


I did not realize playing Mortal Kombat, etc. qualifies someone as a martial artist.

That's about the extent of any martial arts 'training' most forumfallers have.

I learned everything I know about street fighting from Street Fighter, nothing beats a hadouken!

See what I mean?

[epicor]

Bronson;1561586']I know quite a bit about martial arts. I've taken Tang So Doo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga, Systema, and Some Kenpo/Jeet Kune Do/Judo/Boxing.



What are your goals, do you want a good street art to learn?



The Key to being able to handle yourself is first of all being in good cardiovascular shape, this elminates about 90% of people out there. The other 8% can be handled if you have a basic practice of some punching/throwing/kicking/vital striking knowledge and ability.


Basically if you want to be able to handle yourself, get a basic boxing course/book or dvd and start practicing punching. Get a heavy bag, speed bag, and practice on them. Jump rope/jog/bike/elliptical and get yourself into good cardiovascular shape, and work on low kicks. This is really all you need to be able to handle yourself with the average thug/idiot.

Or you could scrape for a Krav Maga DVD/VHS course. Its a very good system, but you need 2 people to practice it.


I agree for the most part except for the cardio thing. You are right in that it will eliminate 90% of the people out ther in a drawn out fight, but i was always taught to finish is as quickly as possible. About 1/2 my training was in 1steps, so 1 kick/punch/push by the other guy and you start breaking limbs/throat chopping etc. Most of the time i wasnt even out of breath. In fact i think the only time i got out of breath was when i was going for my green test and had to fight for 21mins straight (HOLY CRAP 21 mins in a LOOOOONG time when you have to fight 7 guys).


jathen.

anyways, the point is. most martial arts were developed in times of war or to help out soldiers. jiu jitsu, karate, krav maga, muay thai... but then these traditional styles were adapted into sport forms.

shotokan, btw, isn't traditional. it's one of the forms of combat that was adapted into a competetive sport.

I agree 100%. If you wan to learn something worth using, you have to learn the traditional form of it. I did tae kwan do, hopkito and karate. All three are westernized as sports, but i learned the traditional versions and our school always murdered the competition at events.

[Axelator]

It's impossible to fight seven guys for 21 minutes, unless by guys you mean disabled people or children.

[Lachrymose]

It's impossible to fight seven guys for 21 minutes, unless by guys you mean disabled people or children.

i would assume he means back-to-back, not all at the same time.

[holychicken]

The guy above seems to lack the ability to sense sarcsm.

Lots of you seem to have skipped P.E. class.

Strength is Speed! There are two types of muscle fiber, fast twitch and slow twitch, strength training affects the fast twitch muscle fibres and makes you more able to do quick explosive moves such as kicks and punches. You can get stronger without putting on mass so improving your strength also improves your speed, as long as you don't put on mass.

I also did Shotokan Karate and I Was good I got medals for the katas and sparring, I was a purple belt. Then once I got in a real fight with a guy about the same size as me I did my round house kicks just like in the sparring and they did fuck all and I got my ass kicked.

Since I've taken up more sporting maritla arts that spar regulary I must of been in more fights than I can remember and I havent lost. Make of that what you will.
Axe,

You are wrong. Strength != Speed. They are related, but certainly not equal. To someone who does no exercise, building strength will make them faster, this is true. You need a certain strength to be able to move your body effectively. However, at some point, strength no longer makes you faster, you have to start speed training.

Look at the athletes that play sports that require more speed than strength. If strength = speed, don't you think they would all be super big? There is a reason they are not super big, because it SLOWS YOU DOWN. Sprinters don't just keep building muscle mass to get faster. They build it to a point and then switch to speed training.

[Axelator]

Axe,

You are wrong. Strength != Speed. They are related, but certainly not equal. To someone who does no exercise, building strength will make them faster, this is true. You need a certain strength to be able to move your body effectively. However, at some point, strength no longer makes you faster, you have to start speed training.

Look at the athletes that play sports that require more speed than strength. If strength = speed, don't you think they would all be super big? There is a reason they are not super big, because it SLOWS YOU DOWN. Sprinters don't just keep building muscle mass to get faster. They build it to a point and then switch to speed training.

THats what I said, I said if you increase your strength without gaining mass you become faster, so if you reach a certain size and keep at that weight and increase your strength you become faster. What is speed training anyway, I've never heard of that.

[Jathen]

The extremely elite practioners of Karate in MMA are some of the best fighters the sport has to offer i.e. Lyoto Machida, Georges St. Pierre. There just hasnt been alot of people who are as good as them at incorporating it into their MMA game.

If you honestly think that because Machida and St. Pierre practiced Karate when they were kids, that means they use it now...then my friend you are delusional.

Machida studied Thai Boxing in Brazil and is a brown belt in BJJ. He just moves in an unorthodox manner and you Karate guys use that one thing to say that Karate is relevant today.

St. Pierre studied Kyokushin Karate...a fighting form. Then he began studying under Canada's top kickboxing Instructor and BJJ guys. Watch his All Access show, do you see him showing up for a Karate lesson, NO!

[holychicken]

THats what I said, I said if you increase your strength without gaining mass you become faster, so if you reach a certain size and keep at that weight and increase your strength you become faster. What is speed training anyway, I've never heard of that.
I guess it may be just a semantics thing. I equate strength with being able to move weight. You can measure how strong you are by how much you can press, ect. . . while speed is how quickly you can move the muscle. At some point, those two things start to separate. Like, you won't be able to move more weight, or at least significantly more weight, but your ability to quickly move the muscle will increase.

Just google speed training and you will find a lot of talk on the topic.

[Jathen]

Don't they do hardcore krate I can't remember its name but the one where they spar full contact with no gloves but no punches to the face, like I said not all traditional martial arts suck, just most of them. Also didn't St. Pierre just do Karate when he was a kid? I dont think he really used it in his mma career?

No he did not... in fact it's his wrestling skills that have won him the most fights in the last two years.

[Jathen]

you did shotokan til you were a purple belt, like i said before, your hardly qualified to say you know much about traditional martial arts, and even then, maybe you just had a shitty instructor.
and i wouldn't say you're in the best position to do anything, as i've been doing various martial arts of all kinds for the past 12 years, and i've taught martial arts for the past 6 years (mostly shotokan, but i've taught some mma too) and i'm sure there are still others here that have done more than me. furthermore, if you're such a hotshot, why are you making a thread to ask for advice from 'experts'? then when people tell you something, you say they're wrong and claim you're the expert. that makes a lot of sense anyways, i never said mixed martial arts aren't better than traditional martial arts to train for fighting (it doesn't even fuckin make sense to say that, since mixed martial arts incorporate traditional martial arts. it's like saying fruit is better than bananas, but w/e i'm trying to follow your irrational logic).

.

mixed implies several styles have been put together. same logic as two heads are better than one. they take the things from the different martial arts that make them good for combat, then they create a combat sport around it, so of course mma is good for fighting. all i said was, traditional martial arts aren't worthless. some of them may have less use than others, shotokan is one of them. also, keep in mind, shotokan was created long after muay thai was, so while muay thai is traditional, shotokan is relatively new.


i don't know why you're so concerned with being good at fighting anyways. you want to just go around brawling people?



if you really want to get better at defending yourself, you're wasting your time with judo and kickboxing. i'd agree that kickboxing is better than shotokan for practical purposes (although it's not that much better), but there are way more practical ways to train fighting. krav maga, for instance, as well as any military combat training, etc.

Hey genius, where do you think the strikes from Krav Maga come from? Imi Lichtenfeild and Eyal Yanilov (Krav Maga founders) were boxing and kickboxing champs in Israel. Lichtenfeild was also a wrestling champ. And weapons defense are sketchy no matter what style you choose.

My advice, stick with kickboxing and Judo and learn some BJJ and wrestling while you're at it.

[Lachrymose]

Hey genius, where do you think the strikes from Krav Maga come from? Imi Lichtenfeild and Eyal Yanilov (Krav Maga founders) were boxing and kickboxing champs in Israel. Lichtenfeild was also a wrestling champ. And weapons defense are sketchy no matter what style you choose.

My advice, stick with kickboxing and Judo and learn some BJJ and wrestling while you're at it.

didn't know that about krav maga, so i learned something today.

i agree that bjj or any other form of grappling will be the best if you just plan on getting into brawls since most brawls end up on the ground, but i was thinking more along the lines of life-or-death defense.

the way axelator said the stuff in traditional martial arts "don't work," was what i had a problem with, since the traditional forms of martial arts were typically developed to be used in military combat, aka life-or-death situations. i think the problem was his experience with "traditional" martial arts (or so he though) was shotokan, which isn't even a traditional martial art, it's meant to be a competitive sport.

[Parabola]

.

[Parabola]

Don't they do hardcore krate I can't remember its name but the one where they spar full contact with no gloves but no punches to the face, like I said not all traditional martial arts suck, just most of them. Also didn't St. Pierre just do Karate when he was a kid? I dont think he really used it in his mma career?

St. Pierre has a black belt in Kyokushin Karate and Lyoto Machida is a black belt in Shotokan Karate. Kyokushin does a alot of full contact sparring Shotokan does not which make it even more impressive that Machida is as comfortable with it as he is.

[Killuminati]

Why do I always see that video posted on the internet when talkin bout fighting?

[Vanno]

Thugjitsu

[Jathen]

didn't know that about krav maga, so i learned something today.

i agree that bjj or any other form of grappling will be the best if you just plan on getting into brawls since most brawls end up on the ground, but i was thinking more along the lines of life-or-death defense.

the way axelator said the stuff in traditional martial arts "don't work," was what i had a problem with, since the traditional forms of martial arts were typically developed to be used in military combat, aka life-or-death situations. i think the problem was his experience with "traditional" martial arts (or so he though) was shotokan, which isn't even a traditional martial art, it's meant to be a competitive sport.


What makes a life or death situation different from a bar brawl?

A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick no matter where or nder what circumstances they are thrown. What makes a Karate or Kung Fu punch to the head more effective than a boxing punch to the head in a "life or death situation"? What makes a life or death Kung Fu kick more effective than a Thai Leg Kick? What makes an Aikido throw more effective than a wrestling double leg take down in a "Life or Death" situation?

Do you see what im getting at? In a "Life or death" situation, are you not still throwing punches? Then why not study the best style of punching(boxing), the one which has evidence that you can actually see? If you're throwing Kicks in a life or death situation, throw a kick from a style that you have seen work...Thai Boxing or even regular kickboxing.

As far as the ground goes, against someone who knows how to fight on the ground, it may as well be life or death because you and other Karate/Kung Fu guys are dead anyways.

[Lachrymose]

What makes a life or death situation different from a bar brawl?

in a life or death situation, you can obviously use lethal force to defend yourself. if some guy punches you for calling his girlfriend fat, you can wrestle him around and put him in an arm bar or w/e to restrain him, but you're probably not going to (or i guess i should say you shouldn't) try breaking his arms or killing him.

A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick no matter where or nder what circumstances they are thrown. What makes a Karate or Kung Fu punch to the head more effective than a boxing punch to the head in a "life or death situation"? What makes a life or death Kung Fu kick more effective than a Thai Leg Kick? What makes an Aikido throw more effective than a wrestling double leg take down in a "Life or Death" situation?

i never said they were more effective. i even said i think they're less effective than what you'd learn in bjj or muay thai. what i was arguing with axelator about is that they are BOTH effective. in fact i think you just agreed with me.

knowing shotokan karate may not be as effective in a fight as knowing muay thai, but there are still things you can learn in shotokan that will help you out in a fight. coordination, balance, basic punches, blocks, kicks (not the flashy ones)... it's not as good imo as bjj/muay thai, but it certainly isn't worthless.

[Jathen]

Lachrymose, You missed the point of my post, I am saying that you should learn how to fight from styles that allow you to actually fight. Karate and Kung Fu are theoretical nonsense. If I hit you here, you should end up dead...but I don't really know because Im not allowed to actually do it.

It's BS

Also, my post earlier was referring to your addiction to saying that TMA work in life or death situations, but you never elaborate. It's only logical that if a style is useless with rules and referee's, then it will be useless in a life or death situation. If your Karate reverse punch doesn't land in a cage or ring, it's not gonna land in a subway.

[Lachrymose]

let me just say it one more time to end this:

military combat training or whatever (i don't really know, i've never done any) is the best for life-or-death situations, since that's exactly what it trains you for.

i would say BJJ and muay thai are the best two martial arts to know to be able to "fight" non-lethally (although, sure if you want to kill someone, it could still help you out).

traditional martial arts incorporating any form of striking, locking, trapping are useful, but not as useful as what i mentioned above. i would never ever do a spinning hook kick in a real fight, but if i can pull of a spinning hook kick, it means i have a considerable amount of coordination and balance to pull it off. coordination and balance can help you out in a fight. also, practicing karate punches definitely helps you punch faster and stronger. i agree, you'll be better at punching if you study boxing, but my whole point is that traditional MA's aren't totally worthless when it comes to irl fighting.

sure, if you're ONLY goal in martial arts is to be better at street fighting, you're wasting your time with a lot of traditional martial arts (not all) since you could be studying something more effective like BJJ. BUT if you're main goal isn't JUST fighting, then taking years of a traditional martial art will still give you an edge over someone with no martial arts experience whatsoever.

[Jezrith]

I'm just curious, how many people posting in this thread have actually been in a real bar/street fight? And I'm not talking about some "middle school at the bike rack" type fight, I'm talking about "you just walked out the bar's bathroom and some random guy clocks you right in the face" type fight.

[Weeking]

I guess if there is rules... I think it's kind of funny how all the people here (probably a scrawny majority) are ruling strength as the lowest of aspects in a fight, which is quite simply wrong.

And body mass also.

who honestly gives a shit if someone knows how to fight? you arent going to land yourself in many 1vs1 confrontations unless you actively bully people or engage in a fight of your own accord. If you are assaulted or held up, chances are the guy isnt going to be alone and even if he is, there is a high chance that he's going to have a deadly weapon on him anyway. The best defense is not being a moron and being aware. Counting on MA to save you is a waste of time and not a viable option for anyone living in a very tough neighborhood. Keep looking for a fight and you will eventually find it; Pray you don't lose your life in the process, though I'll be hoping otherwise.

People can't tell from looking at you that you can fight back, but they can tell if you're big or muscular and crooks tend to not target big or muscular guys in person.

[kordoyn]

And body mass also.



People can't tell from looking at you that you can fight back, but they can tell if you're big or muscular and crooks tend to not target big or muscular guys in person.

No, they usually pull out a knife or gun when confronted by a big muscular person.

[Zokten]

Think this thread needs...

GUNS!

and

Politics

[Weeking]

No, they usually pull out a knife or gun when confronted by a big muscular person.

Na-ah.

[Jathen]

let me just say it one more time to end this:

military combat training or whatever (i don't really know, i've never done any) is the best for life-or-death situations, since that's exactly what it trains you for.

i would say BJJ and muay thai are the best two martial arts to know to be able to "fight" non-lethally (although, sure if you want to kill someone, it could still help you out).

traditional martial arts incorporating any form of striking, locking, trapping are useful, but not as useful as what i mentioned above. i would never ever do a spinning hook kick in a real fight, but if i can pull of a spinning hook kick, it means i have a considerable amount of coordination and balance to pull it off. coordination and balance can help you out in a fight. also, practicing karate punches definitely helps you punch faster and stronger. i agree, you'll be better at punching if you study boxing, but my whole point is that traditional MA's aren't totally worthless when it comes to irl fighting.

sure, if you're ONLY goal in martial arts is to be better at street fighting, you're wasting your time with a lot of traditional martial arts (not all) since you could be studying something more effective like BJJ. BUT if you're main goal isn't JUST fighting, then taking years of a traditional martial art will still give you an edge over someone with no martial arts experience whatsoever.

This is what the Army does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74KxAaDE2xw

And it's basically MMA without the rules. BJJ submissions, Thai Boxing Clinch work, Boxing punches. So hopefully that ends the whole "The army uses stuff to kill quickly". They use the same fighting that I learn at The Hardcore Gym here in Georgia. The Army knows what works and it sure as hell aint Karate.

[Lachrymose]

this is from the other thread. thanks for making 2 by the way. ;)

In 1956, at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Hayward (captain of the Judo team at MCRD) made Gunnery Sergeant Bill Miller the new Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge of Hand-To-Hand Combat. Miller was ordered to develop a new curriculum that a 110 or a 210 pound Marine could use to quickly kill the enemy. Miller created the program from various Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu. Every Marine recruit that went through MCRD was instructed in Miller’s Combat Curriculum. This also included Special Forces from all branches of the military and civilian entities. Later in 2001, retired Gunnery Sergeant, Bill Miller was awarded the Black Belt Emeritus “…for pioneering Martial Arts in the United States Marine Corps..."

a lot of what they do, boxing for example, is mostly for strength/endurance training.

[antihero-zero]

I assumed this thread had reached the apex of dumb a few pages back, but nope, it kept on going. This deserves an award.

[Axelator]

ANyway as I was saying I asked for opinions not advice, can you understand the difference?

[Lachrymose]

ANyway as I was saying I asked for opinions not advice, can you understand the difference?

well, you were asking for an opinion then, which i don't understand why you would want the opinion of a martial artist who practices non-sense, if that's really what you believe.

EDIT: i like how the tma thread just moved to this one.

[Lachrymose]

you know... i should have just said this at the beginning: you're entitled to your opinion, and i'm entitled to mine (even though mine's better ;)).

[Valaska]

I think lethal self defense is bull$%#@, if you are looking for ways to kill someone, it's already not effing defense and you might as well be the prick going around picking fights.

This guy is basically the biggest crock of crap in a hand basket on fire with baby rabbits being stabbed. And honestly his little knife hiding trick? Yeah it doesn't work as well when its not off screen, and bringing a knife from that point to actually stab someone, holding it in such an awkward way you could have it knocked out of your hand, driven into your wrist accidentally, etc. Basically a loud mouth amature telling you "You can kill people with this! Killin peoples'fuuuun *Dhuurrr Heeeyucka!*"

Honestly you can't tell if that person wants to kill you JUST because he is getting angry at you and holding a freakin beer. Ugh, anyone who buys this crap is no better than this moron. Street fighting is harsh, its dirty and its real, and less you KNOW you are going to die, don't kill someone. And if you aren't prepared to understand the difference, don't go out drinking.

And you know what? If you have any drinks into you, and you follow this crap, you are going to jail. And you deserve it.

[Axelator]

ACtually it's Bas Rutten a legend in MMA with a good profesional mma record. HE knows what he is talking about. I'm sure you know better though.

[Jathen]

Bas is the man. He has some of the best standup in the history of the sport. I don't know why the other thread was closed, but at least this one is still open.

Axelator, do you train standup or grappling?

And Lethn is a fraud, he probably doesn't even train Shotokan...pulling punches is way too hardcore for someone like that.

[Jathen]

I think lethal self defense is bull$%#@, if you are looking for ways to kill someone, it's already not effing defense and you might as well be the prick going around picking fights.

This guy is basically the biggest crock of crap in a hand basket on fire with baby rabbits being stabbed. And honestly his little knife hiding trick? Yeah it doesn't work as well when its not off screen, and bringing a knife from that point to actually stab someone, holding it in such an awkward way you could have it knocked out of your hand, driven into your wrist accidentally, etc. Basically a loud mouth amature telling you "You can kill people with this! Killin peoples'fuuuun *Dhuurrr Heeeyucka!*"

Honestly you can't tell if that person wants to kill you JUST because he is getting angry at you and holding a freakin beer. Ugh, anyone who buys this crap is no better than this moron. Street fighting is harsh, its dirty and its real, and less you KNOW you are going to die, don't kill someone. And if you aren't prepared to understand the difference, don't go out drinking.

And you know what? If you have any drinks into you, and you follow this crap, you are going to jail. And you deserve it.

I agree.

[Jathen]

this is from the other thread. thanks for making 2 by the way. ;)



a lot of what they do, boxing for example, is mostly for strength/endurance training.

Apparently the marines are a bit behind the Army when it comes to H2H training. Thats okay they'll catch up in a few years, then you're argument will be rendered useless again.

[Lachrymose]

I don't know why the other thread was closed

i believe the mod said the thread was closed at the OP's request... which happens to be you. either the mod is lying, or you had it closed to stop an argument you couldn't win is my guess. :rolleyes:

[Jathen]

i believe the mod said the thread was closed at the OP's request... which happens to be you. either the mod is lying, or you had it closed to stop an argument you couldn't win is my guess. :rolleyes:

I never asked for the other thread to be closed.

And if I did, why would I start posting on this thread?

[Lachrymose]

I never asked for the other thread to be closed.

And if I did, why would I start posting on this thread?

Thread closed per request of OP.

well, either methuselah is lying, or you're lying, and i don't see why the mod would have any reason to lie.

[Jathen]

well, either methuselah is lying, or you're lying, and i don't see why the mod would have any reason to lie.

So I closed that thread so I could post on this thread about essentially the same arguement???That makes no sense.

The Mod lied or their was some technicality. Either way we can continue our argument in this thread, so it doesn't matter.

BTW, I saw where you said you trained Wing Chun, did you ever look into Jeet Kune Do? It's been modified and utilizes the practical aspect of WC. Bruce Lee modified it after having a fight with someone and realizing that it was outdated.

[DipMode]

Traditional MA were made to adapt when BJJ came to america. Most fights end up on the ground so JJ is a must to learn. Besides striking in a street fight can lead to death and jail time. Better to have the guy beg for his arm to stay in one piece.

[Lachrymose]

BTW, I saw where you said you trained Wing Chun, did you ever look into Jeet Kune Do? It's been modified and utilizes the practical aspect of WC. Bruce Lee modified it after having a fight with someone and realizing that it was outdated.

i would have much much rather taken jkd, but wing chun was offered at my school so i figured what the hell, also there was nowhere to train jkd anywhere near me. i didn't really care for it too much, but that doesn't mean i didn't learn anything from having taken it.

anyways, i don't care to keep arguing. apparently it just comes down to a matter of opinion (although my opinion seems to be more popular ;)). neither of us will ever change are minds anyway. :(

[Desperado[1G]]

I am a master black belt of an ancient (1960's) form of cqc. In this form of combat, I have the ability to disable a trained soldier by flipping him on his back. The fear this form inspires is so paralyzing, that men are unable to shoot me when I am in plain view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX7dPNKZgDg

[Axelator]

Bas is the man. He has some of the best standup in the history of the sport. I don't know why the other thread was closed, but at least this one is still open.

Axelator, do you train standup or grappling?

And Lethn is a fraud, he probably doesn't even train Shotokan...pulling punches is way too hardcore for someone like that.

I do Judo and kickboxing, I'm new to judo though stand up is definitely my strong point.

[Jathen]

i would have much much rather taken jkd, but wing chun was offered at my school so i figured what the hell, also there was nowhere to train jkd anywhere near me. i didn't really care for it too much, but that doesn't mean i didn't learn anything from having taken it.

anyways, i don't care to keep arguing. apparently it just comes down to a matter of opinion (although my opinion seems to be more popular ;)). neither of us will ever change are minds anyway. :(

So you forfeit...Axelaetor and I are the victors.

[Axelator]

See MMA makes you win at forumfall too.

[Jathen]

Thats real fighters 1, Ancient Asian non-sense 0.

[Coffee Black]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose: strength, stamina, speed, and experience are all important, and if you don't have any one of them, you'll be in trouble against someone that is balanced in all 4. balance is key.

Street fighting for me is that moment of life, when the shit happens to me.
I think the key for SF is what i quote above and one most important factor - reaction.
Simple shit: A thug want your money:
1) VSR tech - best choice to avoid shit <very speed running>
2) fight ->>> i think that in 90% cases, who strike 1 wins.
In all fights where i need to fight <1vs1> i strike first, goal was: end in 5 sek, broke knee or do other takedown, atack head, balls , stomach , liver.
Never fight in street for fun, always for survive. I am not expert in MMA or TMA but i think that, no matter what You training, all of styles in diffrrent ways teach You useful techniques.

ps. sorry for mistakes, English is not my native language.

[Ruinous]

Best street fighting advice I'd give is get the frak out of dodge. You really don't know when some yahwho is going to pull a knife or gun. Lets not forget the other guys mates, as more than two on one you are going to be getting a beating no more how skilled you think you are. Martial arts training may even give you a false sense of security in dangerous situations (especially if you have had a little to drink).

Yup, I am advising run away. Maybe not the thread to suggest that is the best course of action, but it needs said ;)

I do find it interesting that there hasn't yet been a way for traditional martial artists to actually practice going full tilt at a target. Some sort of slam-man type target which would simulate a body? I've done some taekwondo, but all the sparring involved light contact only and yup that is only going to reinforce bad 'real' fighting skills, however the fitness you gain is not to be sniffed at.

[Nexus]

A lot of martial artists my ass.

I admit there might be a small handful of people here that have taken something, but the way everyone always talks when it comes to fighting (like on that beheaded on a bus thread) you'd think everyone fights like fucking goku.