archery: do you think they took that feature (see inside) out for balancing reasons?

[Staatsschutz]

from the ones fan´s visit in 2003. it sounds like a very cool feature, but also sounds like they wont be able to keep that feature up without making the game imbalanced towards meleers

what do you personally think?


targeting reticle will shift around more strongly the worse the wind is blowing, someone on higher ground will have somewhat of an advantage.


If the reticle is shaking from the wind or from the strain of a pulled bow and you release at the wrong moment, you will miss.



The motion of the waves will affect your reticle as well.



on a side note, what was also interesting that i didnt know:

Some boats will have ballista or catapults.

id guess shooting with a catapult wont be as easy as shooting a cannon.
i wonder if those are also still in

[Fro]

Agreed, sounds like it would underpower archery.

[Jonkar]

What fan visit is this from?

And I'm all for it. The harder the archery, the better.

[Ponats]

Title is a little misleading, but ok.

Who knows?

[keeperofstars]

as far as we know the moving reticle is still in.

The devs made a quote that they took the ballista and catapults of boats, and just went with cannons. The problem was with the physics and being able to shoot. The devs said it was too difficult / time consuming to use the ballista / catapults, just way to many factors to deal with. Cannons simplified the issue, for boats, so that is what we have now.

[Darksoul_]

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=61621

Kinda similar as to what I was trying to discuss in that thread,unfortunatly few decent replies came about ^^

[willithesm]

It should be really hard, just like in RL it takes alot of time to get good at it.

[Forgin]

The title is very misleading,
I was already wearing my flame hat

[Staatsschutz]

as far as we know the moving reticle is still in.

The devs made a quote that they took the ballista and catapults of boats, and just went with cannons. The problem was with the physics and being able to shoot. The devs said it was too difficult / time consuming to use the ballista / catapults, just way to many factors to deal with. Cannons simplified the issue, for boats, so that is what we have now.

thx for clearing that up

[Staatsschutz]

as far as we know the moving reticle is still in.


if it is, wouldnt that kinda implicate that archery/ranged combat was never designed to be used as an own template, but rather as some sort of support to the other various means of combat.

[Abbadon]

It should be really hard, just like in RL it takes alot of time to get good at it.

too bad if it was like RL... archery would all be 1 shot kills...


their was a reason in the real world we moved from swords and clubs to bows > guns and such...

[Deja vu]

I do thing that the moving cross hairs are still in.

[Jonkar]

A more interesting question would be if players are still able to alter the weather.

[Nehemia]

A more interesting question would be if players are still able to alter the weather.

Can't wait to get my "Turn weather: Fog" skill.

[Jonkar]

Can't wait to get my "Turn weather: Fog" skill.

Same :D Or something in that direction.

[Legolas]

Archery is just a complement. Who the "#¤% wants to fight close combat with a twig?

[Tiarilir]

Archery is just a complement. Who the "#¤% wants to fight close combat with a twig?

Legolas did!

[keeperofstars]

if it is, wouldnt that kinda implicate that archery/ranged combat was never designed to be used as an own template, but rather as some sort of support to the other various means of combat.

No there are skills to offset the effect.

IE will see things like steady aim skill, which is used to remove this effect.

That way being a good archer means dedication, instead of having everyone be able to hit effectively just cause they can aim a stead fixed point. I know there is the player skill of tracking / leading, adjusting etc, but once you get the hang of it or if your really good with fps games, then you would have an overpowered ability to do ranged damage with little to no skill points in game.

This ensures you will need to spend some skill points to become highly effective archer.

The rectile is also suppost to work like mount and blades. Where your arrow will hit somewhere inside the reticle, but where is not exact. Also the rectile goes from quite large to smaller based on draw time, factored in with movement rates, and skill levels.

[Staatsschutz]

No there are skills to offset the effect.

IE will see things like steady aim skill, which is used to remove this effect.

That way being a good archer means dedication, instead of having everyone be able to hit effectively just cause they can aim a stead fixed point. I know there is the player skill of tracking / leading, adjusting etc, but once you get the hang of it or if your really good with fps games, then you would have an overpowered ability to do ranged damage with little to no skill points in game.

This ensures you will need to spend some skill points to become highly effective archer.

The rectile is also suppost to work like mount and blades. Where your arrow will hit somewhere inside the reticle, but where is not exact. Also the rectile goes from quite large to smaller based on draw time, factored in with movement rates, and skill levels.

sounds very interesting. but for the skills that negate the effect: do you know this for sure?

[keeperofstars]

sounds very interesting. but for the skills that negate the effect: do you know this for sure?

If I can manage the time to look through the dev qoutes for ages ago, yes. However, with a wife , a 17 mo old genius child, and working 50 hours its hard to waste time on it. :)

I'll see what I can come up with though.

[Staatsschutz]

If I can manage the time to look through the dev qoutes for ages ago, yes. However, with a wife , a 17 mo old genius child, and working 50 hours its hard to waste time on it. :)

I'll see what I can come up with though.

np. since you say you have seen that in a dev quote, ill believe you. well it makes archery interesting to say the least

[JoshuaHalfBreed]

from the ones fan´s visit in 2003. it sounds like a very cool feature, but also sounds like they wont be able to keep that feature up without making the game imbalanced towards meleers

what do you personally think?


Try not to think in the context of classes. I remember way back someone was complaining about not having powerful enough heals in DFO. Therefore i have to throw the n0c145535 card at you.

Aside from the good point keeperofstars made, also keep in mind that you can use archery as a means to weaken your opponent and then finish with a few melee attacks.

If they don't design it powerful enough, then you'll have to suck it up and enjoy variety in your battle strategy. Or just play support with your group.

But there's supposed to be a few hundred skills, so I'm sure there will be ways to play the way you want. Relax and don't prejudge until there's more info or the game is out.

[Hackapell]

as far as we know the moving reticle is still in.

The devs made a quote that they took the ballista and catapults of boats, and just went with cannons. The problem was with the physics and being able to shoot. The devs said it was too difficult / time consuming to use the ballista / catapults, just way to many factors to deal with. Cannons simplified the issue, for boats, so that is what we have now.
No, they just said that cannons were more fun and satisfying to use.

[Deja vu]

No, they just said that cannons were more fun and satisfying to use.

does that apply to normal siege to or just to ships? (Are there catapults and such in the game at all?)

[Jonkar]

does that apply to normal siege to or just to ships? (Are there catapults and such in the game at all?)

Interesting question actually...

[Zanza]

Agreed, sounds like it would underpower archery.
um not rly if your mad good at fps games it wont make a difference.

in GunZ online i can blow apart someone with bullets when they have 300+ latency (their character has very glitchy movement and sometimes freezes in place. getting good at predicting movements of a player with high latency is not very easy.)

[MasterSith88]

It seems to be much more balanced by doing this since it adds realism and opens the field to different tatics that wouldn't be needed with 100% accuracy archery. Think about how archers were put to use in European history... Usually in a large bank that would volly fire at an enemy since that was the only way to do damage without accuracy at long ranges.

I am sure medium ranges will still be very deadly for 1v1 vs an archer but consider that the melee class fighting an archer. By only making medium range viable for archery in a 1v1 (or small group vs small group) situation the use of melee becomes possable since the range can be closed in a short time while still giving the inital advantage to the archer.

[Ersk]

about the way the targeting recticle moves when you pull your bow taught, they can just alter damage or fire rate to balance it.

I think all features in games can be balanced / counter-balanced. The real question is have the devs making the game, balanced the feature correctly, which in most cases is yes.

[Secret]

Really is archery that complicateD? I didnt know that before coming here. Cool sounds like it will take some time to get good at it

[Darksoul_]

Archery is just a complement. Who the "#¤% wants to fight close combat with a twig?

why would archery just be a complement?

It should be as viable as melee is,and as viable as magery is.

[Michael31191]

too bad if it was like RL... archery would all be 1 shot kills...


their was a reason in the real world we moved from swords and clubs to bows > guns and such...

QFT

[Osirus]

I'm thinking 2-3 GM archers in a coordinated effort, could take down a shared target with a single, syncronized shot from each.

[Darksoul_]

I'm thinking 2-3 GM archers in a coordinated effort, could take down a shared target with a single, syncronized shot from each.

I hope not ~
im seriously tired of games where it takes 2-3 hits to kill a target

[Porthios]

from the ones fan´s visit in 2003. it sounds like a very cool feature, but also sounds like they wont be able to keep that feature up without making the game imbalanced towards meleers

what do you personally think?









on a side note, what was also interesting that i didnt know:



id guess shooting with a catapult wont be as easy as shooting a cannon.
i wonder if those are also still in
It's just a matter of increasing the damage output to compensate for the lower hit rate. Using real life as an example normally does wonders in answering these questions for yourself before making a complete ass out of yourself on the forums.

[Snowed]

I think archery being hard would be better. Would move the skilled from the learning.

[Porthios]

if it is, wouldnt that kinda implicate that archery/ranged combat was never designed to be used as an own template, but rather as some sort of support to the other various means of combat.
Point being?

[keeperofstars]

I hope not ~
im seriously tired of games where it takes 2-3 hits to kill a target

Well it only takes about 3-4 hits to drop you in DF, but getting those hits are not exactly easy, there are counter measures, and ability to heal. Overall though you wont have a huge hp pool. Its going to be much like UO, where a few solid hits could drop you but a good player vs a good player could go on fighting for hours, and never see a winner.

Now I agree I about being pissed if DF turns into MFO Mages fucking Own, cause they get in a group of 5 people and simulcast instant killing the target.

[Darksoul_]

Well it only takes about 3-4 hits to drop you in DF, but getting those hits are not exactly easy, there are counter measures, and ability to heal. Overall though you wont have a huge hp pool. Its going to be much like UO, where a few solid hits could drop you but a good player vs a good player could go on fighting for hours, and never see a winner.

Now I agree I about being pissed if DF turns into MFO Mages fucking Own, cause they get in a group of 5 people and simulcast instant killing the target.

yup
eventho I had insane fun playing spirit cabalist in a caster grp @DAoC,being able to drop a target by debuff & assisting casters in <2s
I'd like to see it different in DF

Or atleast,if people have small HP pools,I hope heal spells are very powerful,so group vs group fights can last quite long ^^

[Staatsschutz]

Using real life as an example normally does wonders in answering these questions for yourself before making a complete ass out of yourself on the forums.

oh, look a neandertaler from the OT department showed up and had something to contribute to the topic too.

but now you can crawl back under your stone.

[Shoku]

I'm in to archery in rl, and as most of you may know, its VERY hard to even strafe with a bow and fire accurately, and how much the wind affects where your arrows land.

[sorros]

Can't wait to get my "Turn weather: Fog" skill.

"turn weather: severe windstorm" vs all those archers if this feature is still in

[Serrynomus]

Agreed with all the misleading title posts here!

With archery I think a novice archer should have alot more trouble than a veteran when shooting in bad conditions, against the wind, etc (the better your skills, the better this is.)

[andy9306]

I must disagree with the OP's quote on one note. Wind shaking your reticle. I have never seen a dev quote stating that your reticle sways more the stronger the wind is. This is a good thing because that feature would be stupid and make no sense.

[Staatsschutz]

I must disagree with the OP's quote on one note. Wind shaking your reticle. I have never seen a dev quote stating that your reticle sways more the stronger the wind is. This is a good thing because that feature would be stupid and make no sense.

the guy visiting aventurine in 2003 claimed hed seen that himself, from what ive read

[andy9306]

the guy visiting aventurine in 2003 claimed hed seen that himself, from what ive read

Well, that is just stupid. Wind does not interfere with your shot because it blows around your bow before you release. Wind interferes with your shot because it blows the arrow around after release.

Bah. I guess I can live with it for the sake of gameplay.

[CyBrEn]

I'd hope they didn't take away wind effects for making archery too weak if they had to take horse archery out for being too strong...

[Vertisce]

Why does the thread title make it sound like they are removing archery all together from DF? If that happens it will single handedly turn me from this game. I don't care how hard it is to be an archer...

"An archer I am and an archer I will always be." -Vertisce

lol

But no seriously...I kind of like the wind idea. Would make things interesting personally...and wind in reality doesn't effect an arrow THAT much. At least not enough that I cant adjust trajectory and still hit a target at reasonable range.

[andy9306]

I guess that I should clarify my stance on wind effects on archery. Wind should definitely affect the trajectory of an arrow once loosed from the bow.

My issue is with the quote in the OP that states that the wind shakes your aiming reticle, more powerful wind shaking it more. This is stupid and, according to all of the research I have done, made up by some moron.

If someone does have a dev quote that proves me wrong I would love to see it.

[Xx Heartburn xX]

I'm going to make a quick comparison, COD 4 To darkfall. Think of archery as sniping and melee as knifing/shotgun it makes a whole lot more sense to put it in. I am always a sniper in COD4 and i planed on being an archer in DF so it wouldn't be much of a change.

[sorros]

Well, that is just stupid. Wind does not interfere with your shot because it blows around your bow before you release. Wind interferes with your shot because it blows the arrow around after release.

Bah. I guess I can live with it for the sake of gameplay.

for the sake of gameplay!

yeh, unless its a massive windstorm, a bow shouldnt be moving...the arrow should after its released. but why are we nit-picking over these minor details, since the outcome of the shot is still the same, when this MMO is promising to be better than any other MMO up to date, even without half the things they have claimed will be in!

[Staatsschutz]

for the sake of gameplay!

yeh, unless its a massive windstorm, a bow shouldnt be moving...the arrow should after its released. but why are we nit-picking over these minor details, since the outcome of the shot is still the same, when this MMO is promising to be better than any other MMO up to date, even without half the things they have claimed will be in!

did i read some sarcasm in your post? i think yes :ninja:

[Vertisce]

Sorry...as an archer in real life I know for a fact that if you are trying to shoot a bow in the "wind" your bow will definately move around a little or a lot depending on the "wind" and would effect your aim. I assume by what the OP is saying that we are talking winds here...not a little breeze. With that said having the crosshairs move more while the string is pulled back and the wind is blowing makes perfect sense as well as an arrow that flies off course due to the winds effects. That is perfect common sense.

[Sallera]

It may be that the reticle moving is just a simpler way to compensate for wind interference. I've never trained in high wind conditions, but even with 10-20kph winds, arrow flights can get a little random. Depends on how much you want to simplify it, I suppose... but proper wind effects on the arrows themselves would be a lot nicer, even if they're just calculated at release.

It might also be that they combined the various factors (lack of strength causing hands to shake, wind interference, lack of skill, etc.) into a single variable for the amount of reticle movement. Again, just fewer calculations, and if they want to have 200 players engaged in smooth combat...

Has it been stated whether archers will suffer penalties in wet weather (or from being drenched by a spell)?

[Vertisce]

Has it been stated whether archers will suffer penalties in wet weather (or from being drenched by a spell)?

That would be interesting. Shorter flight distance for arrows that are wet would make sense. Maybe even arrows that just randomly go in some wierd direction due to being wet.

[Xuen]

I hope the wind effects the arrows realistically, like you can go inn to a massive windstorm and shoot at a high angle into the wind and watch it come right back at you :lmao:

[Vertisce]

Actually that isn't very realistic at all. Even if it did it wouldn't come back straight but probably spinning and twisting all over.

[JoshuaHalfBreed]

I guess that I should clarify my stance on wind effects on archery. Wind should definitely affect the trajectory of an arrow once loosed from the bow.

My issue is with the quote in the OP that states that the wind shakes your aiming reticle, more powerful wind shaking it more. This is stupid and, according to all of the research I have done, made up by some moron.

If someone does have a dev quote that proves me wrong I would love to see it.
Come on guys, try to use some imagination! If you're tryin to think realism, just imagine that it's your character's focus and calculation of the wind. If you release the arrow at the right time (when the reticle is right on your target) then that means you judged the wind properly. Of course it's not as cool as actual wind physics, but it's still necessary and adds a dash of skill to the equation.

It might also be that they combined the various factors (lack of strength causing hands to shake, wind interference, lack of skill, etc.) into a single variable for the amount of reticle movement. Again, just fewer calculations, and if they want to have 200 players engaged in smooth combat...


This is probably the real answer right here.

[Prox]

Not enough games have the sword wielding knights being the killers. If archery is hard people will have to learn some kind of melee in order to survive. I think melee is the best part of any game and the mechanics of the game should push people toward using it. Of course archery and magic will be much used and will be useful but if archery is so hard then it makes it necessary to get a wall of footmen to defend the archers while they shoot making them more effective.

[CobraTX]

lol, then you could remake the Black pearl coming in with a fog machine and a big ship :D :lmao:

[CobraTX]

into a big harbor*

[McDoogs]

Does knowing almost no concrete details about the details of the darkfall engine freak anyone else out?

[McDoogs]

Does knowing almost no concrete details about the darkfall engine freak anyone else out?

[Worthless]

There are no concrete details about anything. Everything is a just anti-specific mess. Also, when this game comes out it will prolly not have your reticule shaking in the wind and I doubt that any weather will have much of an impact on your aim or the flight of your arrow. Now i can see fog limiting vision but this is really as far as it goes. If they set in stone anything about this before release, or really anything in general, I will be deeply surprised... Really why does the bi-weekly update take a month to come out... Or more...

[Ramses]

I hope the reticle moves due to all sorts of factors. The game is supposed to be more player-skill based, and this is one basic way to enforce that. If the reticle moved more based on fatigue than wind half of you wouldn't be complaining, which I find hilarious.

If the devs ever "balance" something in their game just because it's more challenging than another element of the game, I'll be one step closer to leaving MMO's altogether.

[Empty]

I sure hope there won't be any aimbots for the archers.. >.<

But honestly, I think that aiming with the melee attacks will be quite hard too, maybe not as hard as with a bow. But still, it will surely take some time learning how to aim with the melee weapons as well. And I don't think this is much of an issue when you've really got the hang of things... :)

[Amity]

How about, Arrows are one shot kills but the reticle moves erraticly and getting a hit would require MASSIVE skill..

Or luck.

[Chubbyjesus]

I think its perfect.

Ranged has always been dominate in MMORPGs.. Why? Cause its easymode.

Climb on a rock, auto attack target while he tries to get around and on said rock.

You can take pride in knowing youre skilled, in Darkfall, from what we are lead to believe about it.

Even magic.. When they're FAR OUT, maybe dont waste your huge fireball.. Play it smart and time it right so the huge fireball leaves them burning within arms reach... That way you know it wont miss.

[Chubbyjesus]

How about, Arrows are one shot kills but the reticle moves erraticly and getting a hit would require MASSIVE skill..

Or luck.

No no no no no.

No one shots. EVER. NO NO NO!