American citizenship, really something to be proud of?

[Mucaye]

The truth is quite disgusting!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sLzo9pOXa-s

[Mulambo]

not clicking your rickroll.

It used to be something to be proud of.

[Lachrymose]

not if df releases in europe first. :(

[Maize]

lol that video is pretty good. But no. Citizenship in America is not something to be proud of anymore.


POLL POLL POLL. doooo it. POLL

[Mulambo]

not if df releases in europe first. :(

lol noice.

I'm not too worried about it. I hope they just get steam or some other download and play publisher.

[Bones]

It is more like something to be afraid of as we are on the fast track to fascism. No matter where you are on earth be afraid, dig a fallout shelter and open a barley pop. Thats beer for you non rural folks.

[Mucaye]

Citizenship in America is not something to be proud of anymore.
You speak the truth.
POLL POLL POLL. doooo it. POLL
Clever idea. Some moderator bloke, please implement this!

[Killuminati]

God I hate that dumbass video. It's propaganda created by Michael Moore, not the south park dudes. He purposely had this part play right after he had a conversation with them in his movie. He betrayed their trust so they pwnt him in the movie, Team America.

[Lethn]

lol that's so sad but so true :D

[Matriel]

That link is stupid. It's not even close to historically accurate outside of pilgrims and Indians being killed.

I would argue that no one should be proud of citizenship in any country.

[Mr.LichTwitch]

I've never been one of the, "I'm so proud to be an American. We're so special.", types of people. Nationalism is so fucking overrated in this world, it's unbelievable. I must admit that I love watching the Yurop vs Amerika pissing matches, since the people on both sides of that argument are ignorant jackasses. Makes for a good comic relief thread.

[Kebek]

Yea, I really hope they learn something from this.

[[Malice]Bronson]

If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL

[Matriel]

Yea, I really hope they learn something from this.

Lol, are you suggesting that video is historically accurate?

[Killuminati]

I've never been one of the, "I'm so proud to be an American. We're so special.", types of people. Nationalism is so fucking overrated in this world, it's unbelievable. I must admit that I love watching the Yurop vs Amerika pissing matches, since the people on both sides of that argument are ignorant jackasses. Makes for a good comic relief thread.

lol, yah

[Kebek]

the best level of healthcare in the world

Either that's sarcasm or you got really low standards.

[Bones]

Either that's sarcasm or you got really low standards.

Must be low standards, our wealthy people leave here to go overseas for healthcare all the time.

[Mucaye]

Lol, are you suggestintg that video is historically accurate?
They did, of course, leave out the really bad stuff, like civil rights abuse and nuclear weaponry.

[Kebek]

Must be low standards, our wealthy people leave here to go overseas for healthcare all the time.

I'm not African. Think people here don't have big homes or multiple cars?
I bet you think we all live in clay huts in Europe, seeing how everything outside the US is unimportant anyway.

[Bones]

I'm not African. Think people here don't have big homes or multiple cars?
I bet you think we all live in clay huts in Europe, seeing how everything outside the US is unimportant anyway.


I have been to Germany, Belgium; Holland and England it was amazing and I wish I could have stayed. Please re-read my post, I am talking about wealthy Americans going to Europe for healthcare and China for the ocassional sploited liver not vice versa.

[Kebek]

I have been to Germany, Belgium; Holland and England it was amazing and I wish I could have stayed. Please re-read my post, I am talking about wealthy Americans going to Europe for healthcare not vice versa.

I re-read it and you still come off as if you're saying other countries don't have wealth and their healthcare is quite inferior.

[Bones]

I re-read it and you still come off as if you're saying other countries' healthcare is quite inferior.


Not my intent, Europe pwns imo. Can we still be fwiends?

[Kebek]

You can join me in my lair where we shall store the stolen valuables.

[Titus Ultor]

Lawling at Kebek failing at reading comprehension has distracted me from what I was going to post.

I think the jist of it was "nationalism is infantile and stupid". When I trumpet "America", I'm using it as a symbol for the basic ideas that make up our traditional national identity. 'Loving' a geo-political entity is just silly.

[Helgeran]

not if df releases in europe first. :(
Good one.

[Uzik]

I re-read it and you still come off as if you're saying other countries don't have wealth and their healthcare is quite inferior.

USA is #1 for treating most types of cancer and curable diseases.

That is why people who are doctors in countries with socialized healthcare come to America to be winemakers (true story). But I mean if being something like 20% more likely to survive cancer means nothing to you, then enjoy European style healthcare.

Survival Rates Significantly Higher in United States Than in Europe

One of the reports compares the statistics from Europe with those from the United States and shows that for most solid tumors, survival rates were significantly higher in US patients than in European patients. This analysis, headed by Arduino Verdecchia, PhD, from the National Center for Epidemiology, Health Surveillance, and Promotion, in Rome, Italy, was based on the most recent data available. It involved about 6.7 million patients from 21 countries, who were diagnosed with cancer between 2000 and 2002.

The age-adjusted 5-year survival rates for all cancers combined was 47.3% for men and 55.8% for women, which is significantly lower than the estimates of 66.3% for men and 62.9% for women from the US Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results (SEER) program (P < .001).

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737


Shit, I'll take my expensive healthcare system if it means I get better quality.

[Kebek]

Lawling at Kebek failing at reading comprehension has distracted me from what I was going to post.

I got what he meant, there was just a certain vibe to it. If you fail to see this then it is YOU who should read more carefully. I have an excuse for not mastering English, it's just one of the many languages I speak. What's your excuse?

USA is #1 for treating most types of cancer and curable diseases.

That is why people who are doctors in countries with socialized healthcare come to America to be winemakers (true story). But I mean if being something like 20% more likely to survive cancer means nothing to you, then enjoy European style healthcare.


Let's assume all this is true. So when being treated you have 20% more chance to survive when being treated in the US. What if the patients can't afford the treatment? How many are not treated because they are too poor? While in Europe everybody gets treated. More than evens out the 20% I'd say.

[Mucaye]

More than evens out the 20% I'd say.
Evens it out more than twice.

[shamall]

I rank nationalism #2 with religion being #1 as to being mans greatest invention to fuck the human race.

[Matriel]

They did, of course, leave out the really bad stuff, like civil rights abuse and nuclear weaponry.

Or that the vast majority of slaves were imported before the US was even a country. In fact, I'm not sure any of it was even close to being historically accurate outside of a few words being true, just not in context.

Being proud of living within magical borders on a map is stupid, but you can make a real argument for it instead of a video that's less compelling than a bowl of jello.

I rank nationalism #2 with religion being #1 as to being mans greatest invention to fuck the human race.

Actually it was government.

[kehmesis]

Lol that was awesome!

[Jargo]

I’m proud to be an American but I don’t think that I’m better than anyone from another country just because they live somewhere different than I do. That shits retarded.

And while I’m proud of my citizenship I’m ashamed and disgusted by our government at the moment.

[Skree]

And while I’m proud of my citizenship I’m ashamed and disgusted by our government at the moment.

Great point.

Don't confuse the citizens with the corporate owned government who dominates us.

Skree

[Maize]

Bronson;1511063']If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL

Quite the opposite, in fact. One grandfather fought in Korea, one in Vietnam, a great grandfather in WWII, and an uncle in the Gulf. Plus many of my relatives have been on active duty in various military units around the world. Maybe if I was born a good 20-35 years ago, I would be a proud and upstanding American. But the way things are handled now, and the way our government screws over the American people.....they are steadily taking away our freedoms and the things that make America great. I am not proud to be an American.
And I do plan on leaving this country, as soon as I have enough funds backed up to travel, and start off comfortably somewhere else.

PS. The "American Dream", as you put it, is obsolete nowadays. We are sheep, following blindly the whims and injustices of those in authority over us.

[Exultus]

American citizenship, really something to be proud of?

Naturalized? Sure it is.

Born here? No. Just random chance.

[Ammon777]

Bronson;1511063']If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL
Hey fuck off, mister patriot. I dont like being an American, why should i like being in a fucked up country? The only thing we have going for us is that we are rich compared to the third world.

And actually my great uncle and my grandfather were both in World War II as soldiers so each shit and die. My great uncle died in the war.

[Erroneous]

Micheal Moore is not a historian, he's an entertainer. A niche entertainer.

Read this: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html.

The greatest single political document ever written. A boon to America.

We profited for over two centuries from our forefathers, but this will soon end.

Not only from Bush's imperialism, but moreso the acceptance of the Great Society.

[Attau]

I rank nationalism #2 with religion being #1 as to being mans greatest invention to fuck the human race.

See. There is a serious flaw in this logic. Institutions are not the problem. People need to stop raising stupid little zealot children. Thats like saying we shouldnt be born different colors because then we have the opportunity to hate one another. Stop blaiming things besides the individual because blaming the variables only makes you part of the problem.

Tolerance and acceptance is the only way. Unless you just try to kill everyone who disagrees with you (crusades...holocaust...)*shrug*.

More on topic. I'm proud of the concept of america... but I don't think it's holding up too well.

[Urvad Litast]

Bronson;1511063']If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL

America is one of the best countries and WoW is one of the best MMORPGs but that doesn't make it good.

[Salaman]

America is one of the best countries and WoW is one of the best MMORPGs but that doesn't make it good.

Really? All this time I've been thinking "best" was the superlative of "good".

Anyways, I respect the foundation and ideals of the USA but I wouldn't call it pride. I think we're going down the wrong path and most people seem to agree, but most people would also rather indulge in distractions and consumerism than try to do anything about it, and I think the government is just a reflection of the state of our society.

[Hallexx]

only a fuck up wouldn't be proud of being an American citizen

[Rhynn]

So...Mrs. Obama?

[Uzik]

No one wants to be American.

That is why we have waiting lists for legal visas, and millions coming here illegally.

[Hallexx]

No one wants to be American.

That is why we have waiting lists for legal visas, and millions coming here illegally.

haha my thoughts exactly, and last time i checked people came HERE to get a great education not go somewhere else to get one

[Desperado[1G]]

cue insecure europeans in 3...2..1...

[zakariaz]

Im quite sure I would enjoy living in America just as much as I enjoy living in europe. I would hope everybodys proud of theyre own country in some way. Maybe not the current government but then the people. The cheese. The friggin long legs of theyre women.

Theres always a reason to be proud of where you are from and where you where raised.

Even if its just being proud that you and youre family managed to survive and prosper trough hardship

[Reikson]

haha my thoughts exactly, and last time i checked people came HERE to get a great education not go somewhere else to get one

Thats for college. I think our public education system is fine, at least where I go to school, the main problem is students dont care. When you dont care and dont try its hard to learn anything. And in the inner cities its even worse because alot of the teachers stop caring as well and dont want to teach anymore.

edit: that video is fucked up, please tell me it was used as a joke in the movie

[zakariaz]

;1511729']cue insecure europeans in 3...2..1...

Heh that was a total letdown wasnt it:D

[Hallexx]

i dont really kno much about public education in other countries but yeah i was talking about college

[Maize]

Im quite sure I would enjoy living in America just as much as I enjoy living in europe. I would hope everybodys proud of theyre own country in some way. Maybe not the current government but then the people. The cheese. The friggin long legs of theyre women.

Theres always a reason to be proud of where you are from and where you where raised.

Even if its just being proud that you and youre family managed to survive and prosper through hardship

Thats a good way to look at it. It's hard not to focus on all of the negative aspects of our society. Theres just so many idiotic people here. I guess there are many, many places that have a worse time of it than we do.

It still stands that the course our country is on needs to change, however.

[Arintyll]

I'm proud of what the founding fathers gave us. I'm proud of the constitution. I'm proud of what America once was and what it represented. I was proud enough to enlist in the military. I am proud of my grandfathers service in WWII as well as many uncles service in that conflict as well.

I'm NOT proud of what america has become, I'm NOT proud of where we are going, and I'm NOT proud of all the knuckledraggers (no this is not a racist reference it is a reference to people of an unacceptable intelligence of any particular skin tone) plugged into the MSM going uhuh uhuh uhuh uhuh USA!!!!11!!

The Founding fathers are rolling over in their graves fast enough to be the cause of the current warming trend.

[Silverhandorder]

I am proud, fuck everyone else.

[zakariaz]

Thats a good way to look at it. It's hard not to focus on all of the negative aspects of our society. Theres just so many idiotic people here its difficult to see past.

True, the sad thing about democracy is that the average voter really doesnt know much about anything. Ive never fully grasped why political understanding and activity doesnt have a much larger priority in our educational systems. And our daily lives for that matter.

[Ferox]

i dunno what the video, thread, and comments have ANYTHING to do with american citizenship....


however I do believe that being a citizen is a joke and it should MEAN something, like it did in Roman Times... or even in starship troopers.


I was born and raised in america and I would gladly take tests and do whatever needs to be done to become a citizen that MEANS something.

[zakariaz]

you seriously want a citizenship like the ones the romans had?

I mean seriously?

[Arintyll]

True, the sad thing about democracy is that the average voter really doesnt know much about anything. Ive never fully grasped why political understanding and activity doesnt have a much larger priority in our educational systems. And our daily lives for that matter.

Thats why democracys are rife with corruption and eventually fail. Thats why the US was set up as a constitutional republic. Of course now its anything but and behaves more like a democracy even going as far as to try to "spread democracy" to the rest of the world.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
- Benjamin Franklin

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
- Noah Webster

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself."
John Adams

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
- Benjamin Franklin

[Ganon]

answer to title: no.

[zakariaz]

Well one could argue that a true democracy has yet to be made. And any such would work.

Again one could also argue that democracy is against human nature and that we should all embrace our tribal roots.

Edit: Btw Arintyll what was youre point? I am not really sure what you are trying to say by the quotes. You could be saying that democracy is bad but the Original american idea is good. Or that its all doomed to fail in the end

[Titus Ultor]

I got what he meant, there was just a certain vibe to it. If you fail to see this then it is YOU who should read more carefully. I have an excuse for not mastering English, it's just one of the many languages I speak. What's your excuse?


There was no "vibe" that would lead you to the conclusion that he meant the exact opposite of what the words said. He pretty unequivocally stated that he preferred the European system. Now, he was being a bit of a weenie about it as to not offend anyone, but the statement is pretty clear itself.

If your reading comprehension is as bad in other languages as it is in English, it's time to knock a few of those off your list of "learned" languages.

[Exultus]

however I do believe that being a citizen is a joke and it should MEAN something, like it did in Roman Times... or even in starship troopers.

Worst post ever.

[Exultus]

Well one could argue that a true democracy has yet to be made. And any such would work.

Again one could also argue that democracy is against human nature and that we should all embrace our tribal roots.


1) Tribal roots don't necessarily mean anti-democratic. Elements of representitive democracy are found in a vast range of "tribal cultures."

2) "True Democracy" or a complete and total direct democracy while more possible today than ever in history due to technology requires microstates and an infrastructure that isn't yet available outside of say college campuses, military instillations, etc.

[zakariaz]

1) Tribal roots don't necessarily mean anti-democratic. Elements of representitive democracy are found in a vast range of "tribal cultures."

2) "True Democracy" or a complete and total direct democracy while more possible today than ever in history due to technology requires microstates and an infrastructure that isn't yet available outside of say college campuses, military instillations, etc.


I havent said tribal is in any way anti democracy. It is however not democracy and while it may have some similar elements it is still a quite different basis for a society.

A "true" democracy requires a complete change of the way our society works and even how we see the world and interact with it.

But we dont disagree and I think its all sligthly off topic;)

[Dazarthas]

I don't see why you should be proud of being born in a certain place, especially in America. Michael Moore is a fuckwit (http://mooreisfatduhimstoopidilikeanncoulterand chickenfries.ytmnd.com/), nonetheless.

[Spineless_DoO]

It is more like something to be afraid of as we are on the fast track to fascism. No matter where you are on earth be afraid, dig a fallout shelter and open a barley pop. Thats beer for you non rural folks.

Europe is much closer then we are.

[Exultus]

Europe is much closer then we are.

The United States under Bush is as close as you can be to Fascism without falling over the ledge. The Republican Party is essentially a Fascist party.

[zakariaz]

Europe is much closer then we are.

Better back that up with some amazing arguments mister:cool:

[Kebek]

Yea I'd like to see him prove that.
It must be because we allow immigrants who don't even have our nationality to vote.

[Tiberias]

The United States under Bush is as close as you can be to Fascism without falling over the ledge. The Republican Party is essentially a Fascist party.

Explain, using the actual meaning of Fascism, possibly comparing to past Fascist states like Italy under Mussolini.

[Kusghuul]

Or the Third Reich.

[blemm]

Richest country what?
Most powerful country who?
Start of modern democracy when?
You're all not speaking German why?
Corn dogs where?

Yeah, that's what I thought. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RINqibpWOzQ)

[Ferox]

you seriously want a citizenship like the ones the romans had?

I mean seriously?


Worst post ever.


lazy SOBS!

taking citizenship for granted, thats the problem with us fat lazy Americans, we expect and "deserve" everything.

I mean realistically I don't mean EXACTLY like the Romans, after 25 years of military service etc.. but its the principle of the idea, that a citizen actually MEANT something, unlike today in american society.



pretty soon we are gonna magically have 12-20 million new "citizens" out of the blue like magic....

[Kusghuul]

Having a citizenship meant you were allowed to vote (might be wrong there)... and more importantly, you weren't a slave;p

[Bones]

Richest country what?
Most powerful country who?
Start of modern democracy when?
You're all not speaking German why?
Corn dogs where?

Yeah, that's what I thought. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RINqibpWOzQ)

I think we were the richest country until our grandparents allowed Roosevelt to STEAL the nations gold supply and give it to the private banks so he could issue fiat money. The very same worthless scraps of paper we use today.

Most powerful country, maybe; but I would not want to fight China and its 200 mllion man militia.....

Modern democracy? Keep it, I'd rather have the Republic.

Speaking German? It is better than learning Japanese, now THATS a hard language to learn.

Corn dogs? I don't eat lips and assholes.

[Wufiavelli]

I would argue that no one should be proud of citizenship in any country.

/signed

[jonyak]

Richest country what?
Most powerful country who?
Start of modern democracy when?
You're all not speaking German why?
Corn dogs where?

Yeah, that's what I thought. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RINqibpWOzQ)

enter the idiots...

there were more people than just the USA in the second WORLD war you dumbass.

and your other points are just nationalist bullshit.

[Kusghuul]

Richest country what?
Most powerful country who?
Start of modern democracy when?
You're all not speaking German why?
Corn dogs where?

Yeah, that's what I thought. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RINqibpWOzQ)

Richest? Not per bloody capita, you're not, afaik.
Start of modern democracy? Does Parliament ring a bell?
And we're not speaking German because of the communist Rushkies.
And corn dogs... huh?

[Arintyll]

Well one could argue that a true democracy has yet to be made. And any such would work.

Again one could also argue that democracy is against human nature and that we should all embrace our tribal roots.

Edit: Btw Arintyll what was youre point? I am not really sure what you are trying to say by the quotes. You could be saying that democracy is bad but the Original american idea is good. Or that its all doomed to fail in the end

Democracy is a flawed system. It presses the will of a majority onto the rights of the minority, even when statistically they are not far from one another. (51-49%)

The original intent of the American system with a constitutional republic was to prevent just that scenario. Of course that required a people who were willing to be engaged in the political system as well as work to support themselves and their family. We see how well that worked out. (not)

It also requires people to take personal responsibility for their actions or inaction and people don't want to take responsibility for anything anymore.

The quotes were there to show that those who framed the constitution, knew what the dangers were and warned the country to guard against them. They considered this a grand experiment and knew it was doomed to failure if people became complacient.

[Mucaye]

Richest? Not per bloody capita, you're not, afaik.
They are the second richest I think. But then GNPPC isn't necessarily an accurate measurement of wealth, depending on what you mean with wealth exactly. HDI might be more useful for measuring welfare: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

[Uzik]

These anti-American threads have already claimed like 4 suspensions (mainly Euros).

Could these be part of some conspiracy?

[Ganon]

sure, we are all dumb as George (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oI5EY5kqiBU&feature=related) was...
Looks like hes talking about you.

[Exultus]

Explain, using the actual meaning of Fascism, possibly comparing to past Fascist states like Italy under Mussolini.

The following reads like Bush's to do list:


Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[Tiberias]

The following reads like Bush's to do list:

Yeah, now show where the US is a fascist state.

[Exultus]

Yeah, now show where the US is a fascist state.

First off I said:

The United States under Bush is as close as you can be to Fascism without falling over the ledge. The Republican Party is essentially a Fascist party.

Second off which of the fourteen points of Fascism do you believe are not exemplified by the Bush Administration?

[Titus Ultor]

About 10 of these things describe the government perfectly over the past eight years, and claims can be made about the other 4. If you can't see that (and see that McCain et al generally wish to continue them), you are blinding yourself. Sure, the nation itself isn't entirely fascist, but it's not something that happens overnight, either.

[Exultus]

About 10 of these things describe the government perfectly over the past eight years, and claims can be made about the other 4. If you can't see that (and see that McCain et al generally wish to continue them), you are blinding yourself. Sure, the nation itself isn't entirely fascist, but it's not something that happens overnight, either.

10? 13 based on the titles 14 based on the descriptions. =)

[zakariaz]

The quotes were there to show that those who framed the constitution, knew what the dangers were and warned the country to guard against them. They considered this a grand experiment and knew it was doomed to failure if people became complacient.

Ah okay glad we cleared that up. I Agree with what youre saying and its one of the main reasons im getting back to school. I want to work on making a better system. And try to iron out the obvious flaws.

[Matriel]

About 10 of these things describe the government perfectly over the past eight years, and claims can be made about the other 4. If you can't see that (and see that McCain et al generally wish to continue them), you are blinding yourself. Sure, the nation itself isn't entirely fascist, but it's not something that happens overnight, either.

I hope that et al includes Obama. Cause there isn't enough difference. Maybe one less point.

[Tiberias]

First off I said:



Second off which of the fourteen points of Fascism do you believe are not exemplified by the Bush Administration?

No no Exultus, this is on you to prove the US is fascist, not outline what fascism is.

Actually, nvm, the hyperbole on this one is impossible to cut through.

[Kebek]

Yeah, now show where the US is a fascist state.

Wish granted!

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
-"God bless America"
-People on this forum argumenting that "learning geography is useless cause we are the richest country and other countries are of no importance to us"

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
-Human rights abuse at Guantanamo Bay
-Human rights abuse in Iraqi prisons


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
-Saddam
-Osama Ibn Laden(yes, Ibn)
-Basically all of the Middle East is portrayed as being anti-American
-Socialism?

4. Supremacy of the Military
Do I really need to give any examples here?

5. Rampant Sexism
I feel this only applies to a certain area of the US and is probably bound to religion, not fascism.

6. Controlled Mass Media
We have plenty of topics and posts on biased media. Most media are biased, it seems to be a major issue in the US though.

7. Obsession with National Security
-"Fear the muslims"
-"Terrorists can strike at any time"
-"WDMs in Iraq/Iran/N.Korea could be used to attack the US"

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
-"God bless America"
Don't even think about running for office as an atheist.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
-Capitalism
-Blackwater and other companies that enriched themselves thanks to the government's warmongering.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Don't know anything about the unions in the States. I don't expect there to be any issues here, correct me if I'm wrong.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Take a look at my topic on why the US educational system could use a hand.
Plenty of US arguments against paying attention in class. Plenty of arguments against acquiring general knowledge, anything that doesn't affect them directly.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Multiple topics on this as well. The death penalty in a western, civilised country? There's this guy on this forum that wants the government to reintroduce gladiator arenas?

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Multiple 'documentaries' on this item. Believe them or not.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Who wasn't surprised when Bush got elected AGAIN?
Who cares, enough items to prove my point.

[Arintyll]

Ah okay glad we cleared that up. I Agree with what youre saying and its one of the main reasons im getting back to school. I want to work on making a better system. And try to iron out the obvious flaws.

Back to school is a good start. The only way to iron out the flaws is to educate the population and wake them from their stupor. I could go into how the intentional dumbing down of the population and constant distraction of the media with mindless entertainment is part of an organized structure to facilitate control but then I'd be relegated off to a Tiarilir thread.

[zakariaz]

Back to school is a good start. The only way to iron out the flaws is to educate the population and wake them from their stupor. I could go into how the intentional dumbing down of the population and constant distraction of the media with mindless entertainment is part of an organized structure to facilitate control but then I'd be relegated off to a Tiarilir thread.


Only way to Iron out the flaws is to change the system so "waking up" is part of the educational process. And yes going back to school is a good thing just like trying something else and actually experience how the world works is a good thing and a major eye opener

[Exultus]

No no Exultus, this is on you to prove the US is fascist, not outline what fascism is.

So you're saying you agree that the Republican Party and the Bush Administration meets all fourteen points of Fascism.

Gotcha.

They didn't do a great job on it but not bad, really needs to be updated though: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[Killuminati]

Wish granted!

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
-"God bless America"
-People on this forum argumenting that "learning geography is useless cause we are the richest country and other countries are of no importance to us"

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
-Human rights abuse at Guantanamo Bay
-Human rights abuse in Iraqi prisons


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
-Saddam
-Osama Ibn Laden(yes, Ibn)
-Basically all of the Middle East is portrayed as being anti-American
-Socialism?

4. Supremacy of the Military
Do I really need to give any examples here?

5. Rampant Sexism
I feel this only applies to a certain area of the US and is probably bound to religion, not fascism.

6. Controlled Mass Media
We have plenty of topics and posts on biased media. Most media are biased, it seems to be a major issue in the US though.

7. Obsession with National Security
-"Fear the muslims"
-"Terrorists can strike at any time"
-"WDMs in Iraq/Iran/N.Korea could be used to attack the US"

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
-"God bless America"
Don't even think about running for office as an atheist.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
-Capitalism
-Blackwater and other companies that enriched themselves thanks to the government's warmongering.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Don't know anything about the unions in the States. I don't expect there to be any issues here, correct me if I'm wrong.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Take a look at my topic on why the US educational system could use a hand.
Plenty of US arguments against paying attention in class. Plenty of arguments against acquiring general knowledge, anything that doesn't affect them directly.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Multiple topics on this as well. The death penalty in a western, civilised country? There's this guy on this forum that wants the government to reintroduce gladiator arenas?

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Multiple 'documentaries' on this item. Believe them or not.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Who wasn't surprised when Bush got elected AGAIN?
Who cares, enough items to prove my point.

Although I agree I think you're a dumbass if you use what people say on a gaming forum as evidence.

[Exultus]

Although I agree I think you're a dumbass if you use what people say on a gaming forum as evidence.

Especially this gaming forum....

[Jarkovii]

It's still evidence.

[reece]

I would argue that no one should be proud of citizenship in any country.

qft



Wish granted!

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
-"God bless America"
-People on this forum argumenting that "learning geography is useless cause we are the richest country and other countries are of no importance to us"

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
-Human rights abuse at Guantanamo Bay
-Human rights abuse in Iraqi prisons


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
-Saddam
-Osama Ibn Laden(yes, Ibn)
-Basically all of the Middle East is portrayed as being anti-American
-Socialism?

4. Supremacy of the Military
Do I really need to give any examples here?

5. Rampant Sexism
I feel this only applies to a certain area of the US and is probably bound to religion, not fascism.

6. Controlled Mass Media
We have plenty of topics and posts on biased media. Most media are biased, it seems to be a major issue in the US though.

7. Obsession with National Security
-"Fear the muslims"
-"Terrorists can strike at any time"
-"WDMs in Iraq/Iran/N.Korea could be used to attack the US"

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
-"God bless America"
Don't even think about running for office as an atheist.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
-Capitalism
-Blackwater and other companies that enriched themselves thanks to the government's warmongering.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Don't know anything about the unions in the States. I don't expect there to be any issues here, correct me if I'm wrong.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Take a look at my topic on why the US educational system could use a hand.
Plenty of US arguments against paying attention in class. Plenty of arguments against acquiring general knowledge, anything that doesn't affect them directly.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Multiple topics on this as well. The death penalty in a western, civilised country? There's this guy on this forum that wants the government to reintroduce gladiator arenas?

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Multiple 'documentaries' on this item. Believe them or not.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Who wasn't surprised when Bush got elected AGAIN?
Who cares, enough items to prove my point.





lol gold Kebek. Nice write down.
After reading the american wiki about fascism, im not surprised Americans cant recognise fascim even if they swim in a pool filled with the blood of their tortured victims.

On that note...yesterday they killed 40 women and children and 2 (supposedly terrorists) men in a bomb attack in iraq while richard perle, one of the biggest driving power for going into iraq signed his first drilling contract nearby Erbil together with the kurdish regional government and the Turkish AK Group International.

man this gonna be a lot of fun when the shiite and sunni find out the kurds are making contracts with Perle.

And all they are going to read in the us newspaper afterwards will be:
"Sunni and Shiite religious fanatics are attacking civilists with suicide attacks, the most horrific and cruel thing to do. They dont deserve to be treated as humans!"

[Kebek]

Although I agree I think you're a dumbass if you use what people say on a gaming forum as evidence.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

People on a gaming forum?
More like Dr. Lawrence Britt.

[Exultus]

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

People on a gaming forum?
More like Dr. Lawrence Britt.

He was commenting on some of the answers to Britt's categories.

[Kebek]

You represent every group you belong to. Be it a family, a clan or a nation.
It's safe to say all of the Americans that don't give a fuck about education didn't just all happen to be in this forum. There are plenty of others out there judging by the ratio of such replies to the amount of replies that support a good general education.

[Spinewire]

How many of you have a flag on your lawn?

Never really understood that tbh

[Jarkovii]

How many of you have a flag on your lawn?

Never really understood that tbh

I don't.. As a citizen I feel its my civil duty to show my patriotism through my actions and not use the flag as a substitute or a symbol to hide behind. Thus is the reason why I (when necessary) wear my flag pin on my right shoulder and not over my heart. The country is only as strong as its citizens lift it up to be.

[palo god]

That link was fucking stupid and inaccurate.

[losinglife]

its awesome for july 4th parties

[Exultus]

How many of you have a flag on your lawn?


I own one. I'll put it out when the Olympics start just to piss on all the Italians who put out the Italian flag and root for Italy here.

[Vmax]

I would argue that no one should be proud of citizenship in any country.

QFT

The root of (almost) all evil is (ultra) nationalism/chauvinism.

"my tribe is better than your tribe"

[Fluffington]

QFT

The root of (almost) all evil is (ultra) nationalism/chauvinism.

"my tribe is better than your tribe"

I'm proud of my countries health care system, it does have a terrible side effect. If an emo were to ever seriously injure themselves, I would pay for it through my taxes, forcing emo pain to be my problem.

[blemm]

I think we were the richest country until our grandparents allowed Roosevelt to STEAL the nations gold supply and give it to the private banks so he could issue fiat money. The very same worthless scraps of paper we use today.

Roosevelt couldn't pry the gold from my dead grandfather's fingers, much less take it from him during his prime. Shoot, guy couldn't even be bothered to get out of his chair!

Most powerful country

Good, we agree.

Modern democracy? Keep it, I'd rather have the Republic.

A republic is a...oh, never mind.

I don't eat lips and assholes.

Don't worry, you'll find a girlfriend someday. Or a boyfriend. Whatever. I'm not here to judge.

***.


The root of (almost) all evil is (ultra) nationalism/chauvinism.

"my tribe is better than your tribe"

The thing is: my tribe is better than your tribe. Now, why don't you tell your mommy to go fetch me a sammich, Sally.

enter the idiots

What is "the title of the Jonyak family's biographical movie". I'll take "State the Obvious" for 400.

there were more people than just the USA in the second WORLD war you dumbass.

What is "a completely irrelevant statement made by a non-German European in order to downplay their thorough and constant rutting at the hands of their neighbors in Deutschland". Now, the category for tonight's Final Jeopardy: "How I know Jonyak is gay".

and your other points are just nationalist bullshit.

What is "the pointless crying of a foreigner from an insignificant country" and I've wagered "all my money". Thank you, thank you. I will see you all next time.

[Axelator]

No purely because of the fact that being born into American citizenship is chance not an achievement so you shouldn't be proud of it, if you had to work hard to get citizenship like perform a sham marriage or bribe government officials then yes you should be proud.

[zakariaz]

No purely because of the fact that being born into American citizenship is chance not an achievement so you shouldn't be proud of it, if you had to work hard to get citizenship like perform a sham marriage or bribe government officials then yes you should be proud.

heh heh Cant wait to read the replies to this one *gets popcorn*

[Kebek]

What is "a completely irrelevant statement made by a non-German European in order to downplay their thorough and constant rutting at the hands of their neighbors in Deutschland". Now, the category for tonight's Final Jeopardy: "How I know Jonyak is gay".

If anybody won WWII it's the Russians.

[Sabin]

All by themselves, right?

[richtomania]

Well,there was british and canadians too

[Kebek]

l by themselves, right?

If the Americans can act like one nation won the war, why can't I?
See, Americans have this awesome power. They change the meaning of words, no matter what it says in the dictionary.

A WORLD war? Nah, America won it all by itself. It was America vs Eurofags! Capitalism won!

Anyway, the western front had all the allies except the Russians fighting the Germans. America helped greatly but it wouldn't have mattered if it weren't for the Russians.

[Sabin]

That works both ways. The reason ( i believe ) Germany was defeated was because they had to split their forces between two fronts. But, in all fairness, it can be argued that until the United States showed up the Russians were fighting a losing battle and that it was just a matter of time before they lost. They were horribly under-geared, sometimes not even giving their recruits bullets for their guns. They had massive amounts of people, and that's about it.

[Kebek]

That works both ways. The reason ( i believe ) Germany was defeated was because they had to split their forces between two fronts. But, in all fairness, it can be argued that until the United States showed up the Russians were fighting a losing battle and that it was just a matter of time before they lost. They were horribly under-geared, sometimes not even giving their recruits bullets for their guns. They had massive amounts of people, and that's about it.

Napoleon too tried to invade Russia...

[Matriel]

If anybody won WWII it's the Russians.

Lend-Lease.

[Tiberias]

Guys, haven't you figured out Kebek is insane with AmeroHate?

[Kebek]

Guys, haven't you figured out Kebek is insane with AmeroHate?

I wonder why :rolleyes:

Of course, wall know that speaking up for communist Russia equals speaking bad of the US.

[Tiberias]

I wonder why :rolleyes:

No idea, why don't you throw up about 1000 more posts and tell us all: in rambling incoherency style plz, kthx.

[Kebek]

No idea, why don't you throw up about 1000 more posts and tell us all: in rambling incoherency style plz, kthx.

"Jesus died in islam" just about sums it up.

[epicor]

I think within the next couple of generations the borders between the democratic countries will start to blur. You can see the difference even between my parents (baby boomers) and me(24), and to some of you even younger guys. There is just no point being proud of where you live. Did you run the country? no. Did you actually do anything to build or maintain it? Probably not. So it isnt yours, you are a part of it.

Anyway I answered no. As long as its a free country i dont care which i live in. But since fascism is gaining momentum in USA im gonna leave when my son is old enough that i can pack, get stuff ready etc. w/o having to watch him 24/7. Maybe 5years or so. Then again obama or mccain could turn things around, though i seriously doubt it.

[RayesKotrora]

Bronson;1511063']If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL

My Dad fought in Vietnam, my Grandfather was in WWII, my Grandfather's brother was KIA in WWII, my half-brother's in Iraq, my Grandfather on my mother's side fought in WWI, my Great Grandfather on my father's side lived in Europe and fought in WWI there, one of my cousin's was a victim in the Bosnian War...I could name these off for hours...I don't even want to think of my ancestors because I'm Italian, Persian, Serbian, Spanish, Oneida, among many others. That's a ton of wars.

Best healthcare...funny. Well obviously like someone said before, it might be "better" in America, but in Europe and most other places everyone gets treated.

I have never...ever...ever been proud to be American, have openly said it and openly display my disgust for the country, and guess what...I hopped on a plane out the day I turned 18...how's that for your little theory.

[Tiberias]

My Dad fought in Vietnam, my Grandfather was in WWII, my Grandfather's brother was KIA in WWII, my half-brother's in Iraq, my Grandfather on my mother's side fought in WWI, my Great Grandfather on my father's side lived in Europe and fought in WWI there, one of my cousin's was a victim in the Bosnian War...I could name these off for hours...I don't even want to think of my ancestors because I'm Italian, Persian, Serbian, Spanish, Oneida, among many others. That's a ton of wars.

Best healthcare...funny. Well obviously like someone said before, it might be "better" in America, but in Europe and most other places everyone gets treated.

I have never...ever...ever been proud to be American, have openly said it and openly display my disgust for the country, and guess what...I hopped on a plane out the day I turned 18...how's that for your little theory.

pics or shens

[Kebek]

http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2008/06/25/school_locked_down_after_ninja_sighted_i n_woods/

Something to be proud of.

[palo god]

They did, of course, leave out the really bad stuff, like civil rights abuse and nuclear weaponry.

Nice, dodging the question.

[Squarehelljumpr]

IM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN

...even though my country's filled with idiots

[Kebek]

Nice, dodging the question.
He didn't dodge the question. By saying they left out the bad stuff he's saying it's not 100% accurate.

[Matriel]

He didn't dodge the question. By saying they left out the bad stuff he's saying it's not 100% accurate.

The stuff they did use was about 1% accurate. That's a little more relevant than what was left out...

[Kebek]

1% accurate? How did you end up with that number?

[Matriel]

1% accurate? How did you end up with that number?

There were pilgrams, and slaveowners. Also a 2nd amendment. Everything else was completely wrong.

[Kebek]

How about some calculations?

[Matriel]

How about some calculations?

How about enough intelligence to understand a figure of speech...

[Kebek]

Figure of speech or an exaggeration to support an unrooted argument?

[Matriel]

Figure of speech or an exaggeration to support an unrooted argument?

A figure of speech. If you know anything about American history you know that everything in that video was historically unaccurate outside of a few terms. Yes, there were slaveowners in America, but the slave trade didn't start after we defeated the British in our War of Independence. The slave trade to the Americas was booming centuries before. Not to mention that the importation of slaves was banned in America not long after the ratification of the Constitution.

I could go point by point through the whole fucking video, but there's no point. It's a shitty piece of satire that's slightly funny and completely inaccurate. The only people that would use it as an argument for anything are idiots.

[Kebek]

Not going to read all of that verbal diarrhea.
So you agree that multiple terms are correct. accounts for more than 1% of that video.

I suggest you stop trying to sell your lies. Europeans are more resistant to your fascist propaganda.

[Matriel]

Not going to read all of that verbal diarrhea.
So you agree that multiple terms are correct. accounts for more than 1% of that video.

I suggest you stop trying to sell your lies. Europeans are more resistant to your fascist propaganda.

Lol, I love how you can't handle arguing with me at all. It's like I'm arguing with handicapped people. I almost feel exploitive.

The video had hundreds of words and like 8 of them were factually accurate in any way. Yeah, pretty close to 1% that a figure of speech will suffice if you aren't completely retarded.

The sad truth is that you want the video to be true and it's not. But hey, stamping your feet and throwing a tantrum and changing the subject won't make reality change. Sorry chump.

[Kebek]

Idiot...but what did I expect from an American?
It's a video, not an audio tape. It has more content than words.

[Matriel]

I can't believe anyone is this stupid. Nice trolling.

[Dr Who]

To the OP I think it is. I think that its good to be proud of your country but then again I am part Irish so we are pretty patriotic here.

[Kebek]

At least you're smart enough to recognise your defeat.
Nice abuse of the Nelson Mandela tactic btw.
Don't forget that Nelson ended up becoming president.

[Matriel]

Lol I think you might possibly be more aggressively stupid than Untale and Airius Droc. That is quite an impressive feat.

[Kebek]

More whine plix, yank.

[heroshade]

More whine plix, yank.

Oh god, we have a new Yin...

[Tiberias]

Wait... Europeans are more resistant to Fascist Propoganda?

[Glue Gun]

Wait... Europeans are more resistant to Fascist Propoganda?
:lmao:
That made me LOL

[Reikson]

Wait... Europeans are more resistant to Fascist Propoganda?

dont worry Mussolini is the exception oh and Frano, oh and Hitler

[Tiberias]

dont worry Mussolini is the exception oh and Frano, oh and Hitler

and the Austrofascism in Austria under Engelbert Dollfuß, the 4th of August Regime in Greece under Ioannis Metaxas, the Estado Novo in Portugal under António de Oliveira Salazar ...

[Kebek]

Ah, so you know history? Even worse, you should have learnt from it.

[heroshade]

Ah, so you know history? Even worse, you should have learnt from it.

Errr.... No comment.

[Reikson]

Ah, so you know history?

well apparently you dont know basic American history but we know basic European history, hmm is the US school system as bad as the Italian?

[Baal/Mrheat]

Bronson;1511063']If your not proud to be an American Citizen, then you don't know what it means to be an American, and your grandparents/ancestors probably didn't fight in any of the wars.

But hey, like they say, if the country is so bad why don't you move to another country? You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world and the greatest opportunity to create your own "American Dream"


I don't think anyone who has ever said they aren't proud to be an American has ever moved away, its all just whining because they want everyone around them to cater to their own personal ideology.


PS: Most of you are losers IRL




hhahahahaahahah i hope 95% post is sarcasm :)


ps. best part of ur post was "You'll be running back like the rest for the best level of healthcare in the world "

Went to New York in june and ALL (100%) handicaped ppl i saw was begging for money... what a great country...

[Tiberias]

Went to New York in june and ALL (100%) handicaped ppl i saw was begging for money... what a great country...

We don't like their kind 'round these parts.

[heroshade]

Went to New York in june and ALL (100%) handicaped ppl i saw was begging for money... what a great country...

What do they do in your country?

[Reikson]

What do they do in your country?

Ahhh ignorance he is from Sweden. They have socialized health care there are no handicapped people.

[blemm]

Best healthcare...funny. Well obviously like someone said before, it might be "better" in America, but in Europe and most other places everyone gets treated.

Well, I'm one of the ones who does so whooooooo cares?

how's that for your little theory.

You're a disgrace to your family's legacy. I don't see how that's something to brag about.

No purely because of the fact that being born into American citizenship is chance not an achievement so you shouldn't be proud of it, if you had to work hard to get citizenship like perform a sham marriage or bribe government officials then yes you should be proud.

Hey, I didn't do anything to earn my ridiculously good looks, my naturally unlimited brain power and my huge...head, but I'm very proud of all those things.

Idiot...but what did I expect from an American?
It's a video, not an audio tape. It has more content than words.

So...you are actually arguing the factual veracity of the video content...in a cartoon? A cartoon with a talking bullet, people with no joints and heads bigger than the rest of their bodies?

I don't know where you're from but, frankly, I'm terrified of it.

...

AMERICA RULES!

[Lethn]

I love elections, they always bring out the utter assholes in people :)

[heroshade]

Ahhh ignorance he is from Sweden. They have socialized health care there are no handicapped people.

Having health care or not doesn't make any difference to whether or not your kid is retarded.

[Reikson]

Having health care or not doesn't make any difference to whether or not your kid is retarded.

it was sarcasm

[EAZYmfE]

It's something to be extremely proud of. Europeans don't want to admit it, because they're not americans. Tough luck.

[Kebek]

So...you are actually arguing the factual veracity of the video content...in a cartoon? A cartoon with a talking bullet, people with no joints and heads bigger than the rest of their bodies?

I don't know where you're from but, frankly, I'm terrified of it.


I was questioning his silly math.

It's something to be extremely proud of. Europeans don't want to admit it, because they're not americans. Tough luck.

Colony folk...:rolleyes:

[heroshade]

I was questioning his silly math.



Colony folk...:rolleyes:

Colony? hmmm last time we were a colony.... Yes, Yes I do recall us kicking your ass. (If you're English that is)

[Simmy]

Colony? hmmm last time we were a colony.... Yes, Yes I do recall us kicking your ass. (If you're English that is)

He's a Frenchie.

[heroshade]

He's a Frenchie.

In that case, his opinion doesn't matter anymore and his posts should be blocked.

[Simmy]

In that case, his opinion doesn't matter anymore and his posts should be blocked.

I just pretend his every post is an admission of bestiality.

[Teutates]

He's a Frenchie.

He's from Poland.



My OPINION matters more than yours.

[heroshade]

He's from Poland.



My OPINION matters more than yours.

Getting better, but they should still be blocked.

[Kebek]

Yes, Yes I do recall us kicking your ass. (If you're English that is)

Not English, sorry.

He's a Frenchie.

Not French, sorry. I did live in France for a short while though.

He's from Poland.

My mother is.

[heroshade]

Not English, sorry.



Not French, sorry. I did live in France for a short while though.



My mother is.

So where do you live? Please include real name, adress, and SS#.

[Kebek]

So where do you live? Please include real name, adress, and SS#.

I'll be happy to give you my SA address as soon as I've moved. If it's sex you want...I don't swing that way.

[heroshade]

I'll be happy to give you my SA address as soon as I've moved. If it's sex you want...I don't swing that way.

It doesn't matter to me if you swing that way or not.... It's happening anyway.

[Kebek]

It doesn't matter to me if you swing that way or not.... It's happening anyway.

In that case, allow me to open all entrances!

[Tdog]

Quite the opposite, in fact. One grandfather fought in Korea, one in Vietnam, a great grandfather in WWII, and an uncle in the Gulf. Plus many of my relatives have been on active duty in various military units around the world. Maybe if I was born a good 20-35 years ago, I would be a proud and upstanding American. But the way things are handled now, and the way our government screws over the American people.....they are steadily taking away our freedoms and the things that make America great. I am not proud to be an American.
And I do plan on leaving this country, as soon as I have enough funds backed up to travel, and start off comfortably somewhere else.

PS. The "American Dream", as you put it, is obsolete nowadays. We are sheep, following blindly the whims and injustices of those in authority over us.

See that is simply not true. Only the Sheep follow blindly but the true American spirt is not to just follow, its about setting your own path, creating your own chances. The "American Dream" is just about creating your own little piece of the pie. I have seen people do amazing things here in the USA, people that would not of had the chance in another country. America has lost something. They lost the American Spirt, the true secert of America. Anything is possiable in America, if you dont believe that then you dont know America.

American's in general have lost that drive to be great, we are lazy, fat and stupid. We dont care anymore because our goverment stop working for the people and started working for the Corporation.

I am proud to be a Citizen of this great country but We are only human and we are not Perfect, America is not Perfect.

This is the truth -

"What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. "

Henry Ford II

[Ludo]

Good proof most Americans don't have self irony - now thats in this thread.

[AlmostLife]

i liked the part with KKK lol

[losinglife]

Kebek is filling me with lols

[heroshade]

In that case, allow me to open all entrances!

Do you mean that in all the ways I hope you do?

[Jester814]

See that is simply not true. Only the Sheep follow blindly but the true American spirt is not to just follow, its about setting your own path, creating your own chances. The "American Dream" is just about creating your own little piece of the pie. I have seen people do amazing things here in the USA, people that would not of had the chance in another country. America has lost something. They lost the American Spirt, the true secert of America. Anything is possiable in America, if you dont believe that then you dont know America.

American's in general have lost that drive to be great, we are lazy, fat and stupid. We dont care anymore because our goverment stop working for the people and started working for the Corporation.

I am proud to be a Citizen of this great country but We are only human and we are not Perfect, America is not Perfect.

This is the truth -

"What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. "

Henry Ford II

Very well said brother.

[Baal/Mrheat]

What do they do in your country?

In sweden the handicaped ppl have personal assistants that helps them (some ppl have a assistant 24 hours a day), they also get money for a apartment, food and other expenses from the state.

Its called "solidarity", guess u never heard of that.

[EAZYmfE]

i liked the part with KKK lol

Yeah I wish I was alive during the 20's :(

[Simmy]

I'll be happy to give you my SA address as soon as I've moved. If it's sex you want...I don't swing that way.

We just want to... cuddle.

[Pcheez]

I have a Panamanian passport (Justh ave to freeze 100,000$ in a panamanian bnk account, you get it back after 3 years, get no interest at all tho, and BAM nationality)

So when i travel to the US or Europe i hand the guy my lebanese passport and get THE look.

Then i go "JUST KIDDING" and hand them my panama passport.

Its as good as the US passport travelwise, with none of the drawbacks.

American Nationality, lolno.

[Sabin]

Welfare played a part in killing the American Dream. Why work when you can just sit around, have a bunch of babies, not get married, and have someone who IS grinding a dead end job pay for it.

[Tiberias]

In sweden the handicaped ppl have personal assistants that helps them (some ppl have a assistant 24 hours a day), they also get money for a apartment, food and other expenses from the state.

Its called "solidarity", guess u never heard of that.

I bet it would blow your mind to know that they get that too in the US and that most of the 'handicapped' people you saw panhandling were not really handicapped at all and just using that to garner sympathetic coins to go into their "OMG I NEED ALCOHOL AND/OR STERNO" cup.

[Pcheez]

Welfare played a part in killing the American Dream. Why work when you can just sit around, have a bunch of babies, not get married, and have someone who IS grinding a dead end job pay for it.

America/Europe actually devolved from natural selection into the shit you see today such as welfare.

If you dont pull your weight in society (except handicapped) you should be culled.

[Matriel]

I bet it would blow your mind to know that they get that too in the US and that most of the 'handicapped' people you saw panhandling were not really handicapped at all and just using that to garner sympathetic coins to go into their "OMG I NEED ALCOHOL AND/OR STERNO" cup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIKKO2nE_DA

Holy fuck, I need to take up panhandling.

[jonyak]

Welfare played a part in killing the American Dream. Why work when you can just sit around, have a bunch of babies, not get married, and have someone who IS grinding a dead end job pay for it.

I would like to see some statistics or proof that there is a major problem with welfare in the states. and that most of the people on it are lazy people.

[Sabin]

I live in Alabama.

The unemployment rate is 4.7 percent.

As of 2006, 4,599,030 people lived here.

That's 216,154 people without jobs.

I wonder how many are on welfare? If they aren't then I'm baffled as to how they make money.

The national percentage of single mothers on welfare is 37 percent.

Maybe they should of closed their legs and thought about their financial situation before they brought another human being into the world? Without even being married?

Those are the only legitimate facts that i can find at the moment. I'm not going to quote something without a .gov or a .edu at the end. While those facts by themselves are not enough to say that yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt I'm right...they do lend credence to my argument. Come to Birmingham and take a trip by the welfare office. I've done a lot of drugs. I know a crack head when i see one.

There are a select few people who i think deserv-no, not deserve. A select few people who NEED the extra assistance and are doing everything they possibly can to get by. They are in a horrible situation through no fault of their own. I would venture to say that those people are few and far between.

Most people on welfare are on welfare because they don't want to do what they need to do to stand on their own two feet. I've made bad decisions in my life and i've payed for them and made things right. If you go have 4 kids with 4 different fathers and then want to cry about what a grind your life is, that's your own damn fault and i wish my tax dollars wouldn't pay for someone elses mistakes.

You stuck in poverty? can't get out? just don't have a chance? stop having kids and join the fucking army.

[Baal/Mrheat]

I live in Alabama.

The unemployment rate is 4.7 percent.

As of 2006, 4,599,030 people lived here.

That's 216,154 people without jobs.

I wonder how many are on welfare? If they aren't then I'm baffled as to how they make money.

The national percentage of single mothers on welfare is 37 percent.

Maybe they should of closed their legs and thought about their financial situation before they brought another human being into the world? Without even being married?

Those are the only legitimate facts that i can find at the moment. I'm not going to quote something without a .gov or a .edu at the end. While those facts by themselves are not enough to say that yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt I'm right...they do lend credence to my argument. Come to Birmingham and take a trip by the welfare office. I've done a lot of drugs. I know a crack head when i see one.

There are a select few people who i think deserv-no, not deserve. A select few people who NEED the extra assistance and are doing everything they possibly can to get by. They are in a horrible situation through no fault of their own. I would venture to say that those people are few and far between.

Most people on welfare are on welfare because they don't want to do what they need to do to stand on their own two feet. I've made bad decisions in my life and i've payed for them and made things right. If you go have 4 kids with 4 different fathers and then want to cry about what a grind your life is, that's your own damn fault and i wish my tax dollars wouldn't pay for someone elses mistakes.

You stuck in poverty? can't get out? just don't have a chance? stop having kids and join the fucking army.

"There are a select few people who i think deserv-no, not deserve. A select few people who NEED the extra assistance and are doing everything they possibly can to get by. They are in a horrible situation through no fault of their own. I would venture to say that those people are few and far between."

i hope u grow some iq when u get older... not very likely though....

sowhat if they are "few and far between"? aint it quite sad that most americans think their country is so good when USA leave their handicaped ppl to take care of themself or Try take care of themself...

and this one (haha): "Most people on welfare are on welfare because they don't want to do what they need to do to stand on their own two feet. I've made bad decisions in my life and i've payed for them and made things right."

First of all it just show what a ignorant person u are, why ppl need wellfair in the US is because u have a "minimum wage" for uneducated ppl and hardly any Union.




And just like Marx said: Market economy will destroy itself....
And its happening right now...

[jonyak]

so you have no actual facts, just emotional arguments that you can't actualy back up?

I am not saying they aren;t lazy, but I have no proof and neither do you. there are alot of factors that combine to bring people to the bottom.

[Sabin]

i hope u grow some iq when u get older... not very likely though....


sowhat if they are "few and far between"? aint it quite sad that most americans think their country is so good when USA leave their handicaped ppl to take care of themself or Try take care of themself...

and this one (haha): "Most people on welfare are on welfare because they don't want to do what they need to do to stand on their own two feet. I've made bad decisions in my life and i've payed for them and made things right."

First of all it just show what a ignorant person u are, why ppl need wellfair in the US is because u have a "minimum wage" for uneducated ppl and hardly any Union.



That was a very cute reply. Lots of personal attacks. Nice. Yeah...my iq...ACT scores in the top 6 percentile of the nation...i'm an idiot. Please excuse me.

Please sir, indulge me. Where do you get that our handicapped take care of themselves? I mean what are you even talking about? Do you know? Who the fuck exactly do you think i'm talking about? Hey chief, i live in fucking america. Great job for your welfare system. Glad it works for you. Figure out what you are talking about though. Please. Because i'm pretty sure you have even less of an idea than i do.

We don't have a minimum wage for the uneducated, we have a minimum wage to keep large business from taking advantage of people who actually have to WORK for a living. Like, what exactly do you think minimum wage is? You are an idiot and should really consider actually thinking before you start typing. Without minimum wage we would have people working for even less money than they do now.

You have to be one of the most persuasive people i've ever met. Your logic infallible, your arguments concrete. Dumbass.

Jonyak, in reply to you. Yea you are right, theres a few reasons people end up on the bottom. But theres only one reason that they stay there.

[Kebek]

so you have no actual facts, just emotional arguments that you can't actualy back up?

I am not saying they aren;t lazy, but I have no proof and neither do you. there are alot of factors that combine to bring people to the bottom.

If you're only allowed to make statements when you can back them up with years of research as proof(from multiple sources) then this forum should be a pretty quiet place.

[takenyouth]

i was thinking about joining the army, or the marines after highschool. then i said to myself, "fuck that, i have absolutely no pride in our country because of its corrupt government." although i "support" the troops. i don't support the ideologies of our current administration.

[heroshade]

I would like to see some statistics or proof that there is a major problem with welfare in the states. and that most of the people on it are lazy people.

They showed us a video in english class once and an entire segment of it was devoted to a guy on welfare. They were giving him money to go to drug therapy or some shit, and he was using it to buy drugs. Trying to remember the name of the video.

Oh, there was also a segment about a dumbass old lady who sued McDonalds because she poured their coffee on herself.

EDIT:

was thinking about joining the army, or the marines after highschool. then i said to myself, "fuck that, i have absolutely no pride in our country because of its corrupt government." although i "support" the troops. i don't support the ideologies of our current administration.

That being said, anybody who doesn't stand behind our troops can feel free to stand in front of them.

[Tdog]

i was thinking about joining the army, or the marines after highschool. then i said to myself, "fuck that, i have absolutely no pride in our country because of its corrupt government." although i "support" the troops. i don't support the ideologies of our current administration.

See I have pride in my country but not in my current goverment.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

"

i hope u grow some iq when u get older... not very likely though....




LMFAO... thats pure irony right there..

[takenyouth]

See I have pride in my country but not in my current goverment.

thats how i feel.

[heroshade]

thats how i feel.

Pretty much, yeah.

[Milo Hobgoblin]

"There are a select few people who i think deserv-no, not deserve. A select few people who NEED the extra assistance and are doing everything they possibly can to get by. They are in a horrible situation through no fault of their own. I would venture to say that those people are few and far between."

i hope u grow some iq when u get older... not very likely though....

sowhat if they are "few and far between"? aint it quite sad that most americans think their country is so good when USA leave their handicaped ppl to take care of themself or Try take care of themself...

and this one (haha): "Most people on welfare are on welfare because they don't want to do what they need to do to stand on their own two feet. I've made bad decisions in my life and i've payed for them and made things right."

First of all it just show what a ignorant person u are, why ppl need wellfair in the US is because u have a "minimum wage" for uneducated ppl and hardly any Union.




And just like Marx said: Market economy will destroy itself....
And its happening right now...

This post makes me cry inside. Once I put on my "fucking retard" decoder ring.. I realized this assclown is trying to justify why poor, lazy uneducated dumbfucks are in their current plight.. lack of unions and minimum wage...

BWHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA


Dumb ass this isnt Sweden.. the majority of the poor in the US are poor because of bad decisions like having children they couldnt afford or dropping out of school or abusing drugs and alcohol.

oh and that comment from one of the biggest economics flunkees in history (Marx) was a nice touch and really added to the idiocy of your post

[Kietharr]

not really, the only requirement is winning a genetic lottery and being born. Millions upon millions of people have met these requirements.

[heroshade]

not really, the only requirement is winning a genetic lottery and being born. Millions upon millions of people have met these requirements.

I won it twice.

[Tiberias]

aint it quite sad that most americans think their country is so good when USA leave their handicaped ppl to take care of themself or Try take care of themself...

Prove this please or STFU about it.

[Kebek]

Prove this please or STFU about it.

He says this, you say that. Prove him wrong by proving your statement.

[Simmy]

He says this, you say that. Prove him wrong by proving your statement.

Tiberias didn't make a statement. Baal did. The burden of proof is upon Baal.

[Spineless_DoO]

I would like to see some statistics or proof that there is a major problem with welfare in the states. and that most of the people on it are lazy people.

It depends on the area. Some are so so, some states make it very hard to get on welfare. Here in NJ all you have to be is any color besides white and BAMB your hand slides into the communities pocket. Its pretty easy to figure it out. Look around. When the are living off the backs of others, drive brand new cars, have over 500 channels of cable, kicking stereos, and manage to make it to the LQ the second the doors open I would say there is a problem. Those people sure dont care about having kids either. Once they are in the system they breed like roaches. When ever people speak up about it we are called racists. Its pretty sad. One of my favorite past times is standing near a bank door on the 3rd of the month and watch the hundreds of thousands of $$ go out the door. Forget about Wallmart. If you are dumb enough to go near that place on the 3rd you will get run over by a stampede of Mexicans, Indians, and blacks. Each state is different.

The problem with the welfare system is it breeds lazy roaches. A woman for example will get in the system. She gets pregnant. In turn the people end up paying for the kid. Then she realises she can have near as many kids as she wants and her total income will grow. These people dont look after the children. They hang out on steps thinking they are thugs LOL and thats the way life should be bla bla. Well now when those kids grow up and have kids what do you think those kids turn out like? Its been going on like this forever. Despite all the excuses that oh, the rasicst white people wont hire blacks, its impossible to get out of a ghetto, bla bla bla they dont want to leave the system. That would require work, waking up in the morning, oh and they might have to sell that new car the gov was paying the bills on.

I think alot of these non Americans think welfare is the same as SS disability. They would do well to know those systems are very different. To get on SS you need to fall into a bracket. For dissability you need to be dissabled. You need medical proof. Then its just a matter of paperwork. Temp dissability is usualy done by the state until you can get your regular checks. Its actualy a very good system. The facilities provide you with housing and everything you need. Its a bit better pay then welfare. The SS system is country wide. The states are free to bulster it if they want but its there for everyone.

While on one hand you could judge the USA's SS system in a broad maner the welfare system is the exact opposite. Each state in affect has its own sov. Things are very different from border to border even though the central government globalists are eroding it.

[Kebek]

Tiberias didn't make a statement. Baal did. The burden of proof is upon Baal.

Tiberias' statement:

I bet it would blow your mind to know that they get that too in the US and that most of the 'handicapped' people you saw panhandling were not really handicapped at all and just using that to garner sympathetic coins to go into their "OMG I NEED ALCOHOL AND/OR STERNO" cup.

One states handicapped people are not taken care of in the US, the other says they are. The burden of proof is upon both of them.

[Simmy]

Tiberias' statement:



One states handicapped people are not taken care of in the US, the other says they are. The burden of proof is upon both of them.

Ok, I didn't see that one.

[alexiogman]

See I have pride in my country but not in my current goverment.

Sounds like our democracy ain't workin for you.. is it? Looks like all your proud of is a few friends and relatives who share your opinion and just forgot to vote. You couldn't give a fuck about anybody else. Why aren't you proud of your government? They're pwning middle east left and right and have your parents pay for it with their tax money. Looks like you're not getting DF this year because your parents spent their dollars on killin arabs. :lmao:

"pride in my country, but not my government" the most bullshit line I ever heard. You're either proud or you're not. And you're no fucking american, so GTFO and go to canada or something.

[KylePwnage]

whats wrong about that?

[Desperado[1G]]

"pride in my country, but not my government" the most bullshit line I ever heard. You're either proud or you're not. And you're no fucking american, so GTFO and go to canada or something.

you're a retard

[Tdog]

Sounds like our democracy ain't workin for you.. is it? Looks like all your proud of is a few friends and relatives who share your opinion and just forgot to vote. You couldn't give a fuck about anybody else. Why aren't you proud of your government? They're pwning middle east left and right and have your parents pay for it with their tax money. Looks like you're not getting DF this year because your parents spent their dollars on killin arabs. :lmao:

"pride in my country, but not my government" the most bullshit line I ever heard. You're either proud or you're not. And you're no fucking american, so GTFO and go to canada or something.

First off, I pay my own taxes thanks.

Second I love my country but my current goverment is not helping America, it is infact hurting my Country.

Also Just because your an idiot.

Theodore Roosevelt:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918)

There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America. ~William J. Clinton

“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” Edward Abbey

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” Patrick Henry

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.
Theodore Roosevelt


and this is something I live by, something that I think every American needs to stop and think about

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "
Thomas Jefferson

[zakariaz]

First off, I pay my own taxes thanks.

Second I love my country but my current goverment is not helping America, it is infact hurting my Country.

Also if you know anything about America, it is well with in my right to question my goverment that is what America is all about.

And what every democracy should be about.

[Nicolie]

I am ashamed to live in a country that voted in Bush twice & after all this McCain will prob. be voted in. :bang::bang::bang:

[Tdog]

I am ashamed to live in a country that voted in Bush twice & after all this McCain will prob. be voted in. :bang::bang::bang:

Well it was bush or Kerry and bush is the lesser of two evils. Kerry would have won if he would have not attack bush non stop and instead told the American people what he stood for and what he was going to do to change America for the better.

Second McCain will not win because of Bush. Obama is the next president, mark my words.

McCain will not win because all he is doing is attacking Obama, were Obama is explaining his position on all the major issues.

Never be ashamed of your country, be ashamed of the goverment. America is still America with or without a good goverment.

[reece]

what made Kerry the bigger evil again?
i always forget

[Tharkon Fargor]

I don't like America but common...
You aren't seriously considering to have this video as your guidestone to if one should be proud over ones US citizen ship or not?

[Tdog]

I don't like America but common...
You aren't seriously considering to have this video as your guidestone to if one should be proud over ones US citizen ship or not?

Why don't you like America?

[Tdog]

what made Kerry the bigger evil again?
i always forget

Kerry did not bring anything to the table expect he hated bush, I cannot vote for someone that never explains to me their stands on the issues.

All Kerry did was blast Bush, never did he say how he was going to fix the things Bush broke, he just said He didn't like Bush. Unless you tell me how you are going to fix the problems we face, I cannot vote for you.

Same with McCain so far, he has not told me how he plans on fixing the problems, he just says he will do things differently then Bush and Obama.

Obama goes about explain how he plans on fixing the problems, I might not agree with all his solutions but at least I know were he stands and what he plans on doing.

[Tharkon Fargor]

Why don't you like America?

Bunch of reasons. I guess it's more your government, your NSA/CIA/Pentagon, some of your big corporations, your bullshit in the media...well ya...


I like a bunch of things to tho.

[Tiberias]

He says this, you say that. Prove him wrong by proving your statement.

I proved him wrong with my statement, but for more proof:

http://www.ssa.gov/disability/

[Tdog]

Bunch of reasons. I guess it's more your government, your NSA/CIA/Pentagon, some of your big corporations, your bullshit in the media...well ya...


I like a bunch of things to tho.

Thats cool, was just wondering... I have no problem with you dis liking America, Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.

Just please don't tell me you live in America because then I do have a problem with it.

[Tharkon Fargor]

So the rest of us can have different opinions than you but Americans living in the land of the "free" can't have? r0x!

[PrimalSign]

So the rest of us can have different opinions than you but Americans living in the land of the "free" can't have? r0x!

Obviously not. Those Americans can move to the non-existent country that has everything they like about America and not what they dislike.

[Tharkon Fargor]

And what about changing your country into the better instead?

[Biggs]

Everyone has said their piece at this point.