Starcraft II

[Airius Droc]

Is it just me, or do the Terran look freakishly overpowered in Starcraft II?

[Xzi]

Is it just me, or do the Terran look freakishly overpowered in Starcraft II?
Lolwut?

Suggest http://www.battle.net/forums/board.aspx?ForumName=sc2-general if you're looking to troll.

[Ghostpaw]

This answers most questions about Starcraft II. I really good overview.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527

[Krort'Paurk]

I can't wait to see south korean programmer matches. But I wonder if the game won't be as balanced as the old one, pretty hard to beat.

[Surly]

That is sooooo sad.

[Ghostpaw]

I can't wait to see south korean programmer matches. But I wonder if the game won't be as balanced as the old one, pretty hard to beat.

I am afraid the skill ceiling will be lowered due to automining. This will cause matches to be won by even smaller margins or even to the point that tiny, silly mistakes causes irreversible damage that condemns the player into a lose instead of winning through better techniques, strategies, scouting, and reading your opponent well.

[Xzi]

I am afraid the skill ceiling will be lowered due to automining. This will cause matches to be won by even smaller margins or even to the point that tiny, silly mistakes causes irreversible damage that condemns the player into a lose instead of winning through better techniques, strategies, scouting, and reading your opponent well.
What the hell is automining? As far as I remember, your units automatically kept mining after being ordered to do so once in SC1.

[Airius Droc]

Lolwut?

Suggest http://www.battle.net/forums/board.aspx?ForumName=sc2-general if you're looking to troll.

What's sad is that you assume that I'm trolling. If I could only filter out half the people that visit these forums.

[Xzi]

What's sad is that you assume that I'm trolling. If I could only filter out half the people that visit these forums.
Well unless you've played the game for yourself, then yes, you were indeed trolling.

[Ghostpaw]

What the hell is automining? As far as I remember, your units automatically kept mining after being ordered to do so once in SC1.

Yes they keep mining once you "order" them. That's the key there. In Starcraft II you can set it up so that as soon as the workers come out, they immediately start mining so you don't have to come back to your base and tell them yourself.

[III [C*D]]

I can't wait to see south korean programmer matches. But I wonder if the game won't be as balanced as the old one, pretty hard to beat.

I have to agree, Starcraft was freakishly balanced. It just took a little practice with each race to figure it out.

[Xzi]

Yes they keep mining once you "order" them. That's the key there. In Starcraft II you can set it up so that as soon as the workers come out, they immediately start mining so you don't have to come back to your base and tell them yourself.
You mean like set waypoints to the resources? That's no big deal. Just a hell of a lot more convenient. Should have been in SC1.

[Airius Droc]

Well unless you've played the game for yourself, then yes, you were indeed trolling.

Actually, I just started reading up on it the other day, watched a ton of videos and kept thinking "wow the terran look so fucking cool and so fucking great" and at the same time thinking "the protoss and the zerg look like they were afterthoughts."

But instead of just thinking that to myself I decided I put it to the test, throw it out to the internet and see what random people thought about it.

The thing that really pisses me off about these forums is that 99% of the people here are so fucking scared to have their own opinion or to have a real conversation that instead they just hide behind their keyboards, lash out at everyone else, and pretend they're somehow on the high ground.

Oh well, it was time wasted even if I didn't get a valid response. Fucking idiot jerk offs.

[Airius Droc]

;1495368']I have to agree, Starcraft was freakishly balanced. It just took a little practice with each race to figure it out.

I always thought starcraft was unbalanced too. Fun game, but when you got into it with people that knew what they were doing it became less of a chess match and more of a game of rock paper scissors.

[Ghostpaw]

You mean like set waypoints to the resources? That's no big deal. Just a hell of a lot more convenient. Should have been in SC1.

This person says it better than I can.

2.5.2 The worse.

Automining, the little brother of the new whole “attack-move” when exiting a building to rally point command. Except this time it’s not “attack-move” but “harvest” and its at least as ugly as its sibling. It just does what its name tells you. You select your production facility with the capability of producing worker units and then set that (worker-)rally point on a mineral patch or vespene gas extraction facility of your choice. Then watch to your growing amazement as how to every little procuced industrious worker heads over straight towards said rallypoint and proceed to get to work to further the benefit of your thriving machine of war.

Sounds great doesn’t it?

Shame it’s bloody terrible. It’s the same story as with rally points and with MBS, its just total and utter rape of the original starcraft spirit and gameplay style. The amount of time this saves you as a player and the amount by whitch it improves your resource aquisition is just mindboggling. Even progamers, especially in lategame and in complex action packed periods can’t handle putting every worker immediately to work as soon as it finishes. Spread this out over the period of a 20 minute game with dozens of workers produced and we’re talking hundreds if not thousands of minerals here. They might have reduced the amount of minerals yielded per aquisition but with automining and the new and improved unit pathing you’ll be drowning in more minerals then you’ve ever seen. The way this simplifies the game and time it takes to tend your economy is just plain terrible.

Just as with MBS this derives so much from the possible things a player can spend his time and attention on to demonstrate skill and devellop a personal style. Removing control from a player at this scale and on these critical points in gameplay and gamestyle differentiation is just terrible design with an E-sport in mind.

[Airius Droc]

I'm going to bed...if anyone cares to post why the protoss and zerg look interesting in SCII - I'd like to know the reason.

The Terran seem so versatile (really the only defensive race in the game). While to me the zerg seem like a big huge blunt object you use to smash your opponent with. Millions of "crap" swarming without strategy or without countering. The protoss seem like a cheap way to tech up and press the "I win" button when you have enough carriers or whatever.

I almost wish SCII was Terran vs. Terran. Although I'd miss the 3 racial identities that made SCI so cool.

Your thoughts?

[Reikson]

This person says it better than I can.

WTF it takes less than 2 seconds to recall to home base order a worker to harvest and double click back to the unit you were microing. I really think this is just some "hardcore" player trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about and you bought it just a like a good sheep because it also makes you sound like you know what you are talking about when you bring it up.

[Ghostpaw]

WTF it takes less than 2 seconds to recall to home base order a worker to harvest and double click back to the unit you were microing. I really think this is just some "hardcore" player trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about and you bought it just a like a good sheep because it also makes you sound like you know what you are talking about when you bring it up.

It's harder than it looks. I can't count the number of times I've had idle workers at base because I'm busy trying to do something else. Things like that add up the further you get into the game. Sometimes I will even forget to make workers but I don't think that will be much of a problem with the multiple building selection feature.

Also there is a bit more to it than that.

[mutantmagnet]

The protoss seem like a cheap way to tech up and press the "I win" button when you have enough carriers or whatever.


Except carriers blow now in SC2 and the Mothership is slower than the reaver from vanilla so Protoss have issues with capitol air but it's not like they are needed. Warp in makes their gate dependent ground units so mobile air is almost redundant and the robotics facility bred Collusus pretty much owns almost everything that's on the ground with the Pheonix offering very nice air support thanks to overload.

If you want mass capitol ships steam rolling everything in their path then just look at Battlecruisers. Every report I read claims they are unstoppable. Matches are usually too short to ever see BCs in action but when they do appear they wtfcrazysteamroll everything.

My only criticism about the BC reports is in the case of Zerg noone thought to use Infestors' plagues.

Ghostpaws observation is correct. One of the things I was proud of when developing my SC skills years ago was peon management. Ther was a lot of skill and stamina required in remembering how to use the properly while battles intensifeid or the oppoenent responds with different unit compositions.

[Kiat]

Personally, I usually never play Terran for some weird reason. I have nothing against them, just not how I play. I actually usually play Zerg, but Protoss are amazingly fun to play as well. I have to say though, you are completely undermining how strong the Zerg appear to be in Starcraft II.

Look at this: http://starcraft2.com/features/zerg/baneling.xml

Those freaking things are basically rolling acid bombs, and they could take out the mechs pretty easily. Along with that, the Zerg have apparently worm tunnels of some sort, which are extremely kick ass.

[Afgar]

Yes they keep mining once you "order" them. That's the key there. In Starcraft II you can set it up so that as soon as the workers come out, they immediately start mining so you don't have to come back to your base and tell them yourself.

So you're implying that how fast someone set their units to mine after they popped out was a very significant factor in determining who won the game, so much that since it's gone, lots of depth and strategy will be void from determining the winner?

I don't follow.

[Ample]

WTF it takes less than 2 seconds to recall to home base order a worker to harvest and double click back to the unit you were microing. I really think this is just some "hardcore" player trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about and you bought it just a like a good sheep because it also makes you sound like you know what you are talking about when you bring it up.

Over a 20 minute game, 2 seconds can add up. In a game where you have to choose where to devote your time when you have many different options, 2 seconds can be much more critical than you think.
keep in mind that the guy writing this article has pro gaming in mind, not casual, or even competitive gaming.
this guy does know what he is talking about, I can't imagine how you concluded that the author actually BSed his way through that entire article, given the amount of depth is in it.
How the fuck is he (ghostpaw) following the herd? this is one man's opinion that ghostpaw agrees with. I didn't know that the article was agreed with by the general consensus of the gaming community. He quoted the article because it was much more explicit, not because he was trying to "know what he was talking about"



So you're implying that how fast someone set their units to mine after they popped out was a very significant factor in determining who won the game, so much that since it's gone, lots of depth and strategy will be void from determining the winner?

I don't follow.
Read the quote. It is this factor combined with other dumbing-down, although seemingly convenient, changes, that will indeed effect the way a game could turn out. It is not a very significant factor, the point is it that it (telling each individual worker to go mine) was one more thing that you had to devote a certain amount of time to. That time could be spent managing resources, units, etc.
Bottom line: The specific example of the workers automining may seem outlandish at first, but in reality if you don't have to tell your units where to go/what to do, the skill "ceiling" will be way lower. In other words, the separation between a good player and a great/pro player will be way less. This is true of battles as well, you can set a rally point that tells the unit to attack to that point as well. It goes even further, when the units begin attacking, a large factor of "micro" is (not entirely) diminished... they will automatically encircle the enemy. All of these changes seem like they would be way helpful in the convenience department, but when looked at from a pro gamer's pov, the game will simply be who can build units faster (ok that's and exaggeration, but it much closer to that than SC1)

[Elxu]

This person says it better than I can.

While pro-gamers disagree with new improvements in Starcraft2, its still casual gamers that bring most money into game-makers pockets. Auto-mine, MBS, etc do indeed lower the skill-cap but it makes the game more comfortable to play thus attracting more casual players to the game. It still doesn't mean that noobs could have chance against pro-gamers.

[emasame]

exactly, try playing some decent players on wc3.

[mutantmagnet]

It still doesn't mean that noobs could have chance against pro-gamers.


Normally I would agree with such blanket statements but he specifically points out that many of the changes dramatically lowers actions per clicks.

APC wasn't the ultimate determinant of skill but stereotypically the higher ranking players on average had hundreds of APC more than lower skilled players.

When you watch games you can tell a good portion of their clicks are a waste hence the reason why a small number of programers exist who have an APC far below the norm because they don't waste clicks, but their average is still far above noob levels.


By lowering the APC requirements noobs are going to be far more competitive than before.

[Weeking]

He got it wrong. You can select multiple buildings in SC1 and build the units several at the time that way.

I assume you are still limited to creating units from one building type with the same clicks and therefore the Zerg will still be far superior at zerging and zerging is a better tactic. Terrans are gonna suck.

[emasame]

He got it wrong. You can select multiple buildings in SC1 and build the units several at the time that way.

I assume you are still limited to creating units from one building type with the same clicks and therefore the Zerg will still be far superior at zerging and zerging is a better tactic. Terrans are gonna suck.

thats kind of interesting, but it doesnt take much more micro to queue up several buildings.

[Airius Droc]

Personally, I usually never play Terran for some weird reason. I have nothing against them, just not how I play. I actually usually play Zerg, but Protoss are amazingly fun to play as well. I have to say though, you are completely undermining how strong the Zerg appear to be in Starcraft II.

Look at this: http://starcraft2.com/features/zerg/baneling.xml

Those freaking things are basically rolling acid bombs, and they could take out the mechs pretty easily. Along with that, the Zerg have apparently worm tunnels of some sort, which are extremely kick ass.

I guess I just see the Zerg as a massive hammer of units...a wave of poop that's thrown at your opponent. It's almost like I see them as built in AI for a less experienced player to ball up and throw at an even less experienced player. Powerful yes, but not very dynamic. It's like telling someone they can have a choice between Jokers acid gun and Batman's utility belt, as their weapon of choice. :) Best comparison I could think of on the fly.

[doma]

This answers most questions about Starcraft II. I really good overview.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527

Nice! Thanks for the link

[Airius Droc]

exactly, try playing some decent players on wc3.

I'm going to have a lot of fun playing SCII, but I must say that the RTS genre is rather stupid once you get deep into it (imo).

1) I hate how "knowing the map" is always such a huge advantage. The best games are always against your friends where you both "know" each other vs. the map.

2) Build Orders are silly. I've never found great value in them. Not because they don't help you win - they obviously do. But because I fail to see how "build orders" have ANYTHING to do with REAL TIME STRATEGY. It's real time, not calculated spreadsheet jerk off time. It takes away from the true essence of the game, imo.

And now I'm going to work.

[mutantmagnet]

I'm going to have a lot of fun playing SCII, but I must say that the RTS genre is rather stupid once you get deep into it (imo).

1) I hate how "knowing the map" is always such a huge advantage. The best games are always against your friends where you both "know" each other vs. the map.

2) Build Orders are silly. I've never found great value in them. Not because they don't help you win - they obviously do. But because I fail to see how "build orders" have ANYTHING to do with REAL TIME STRATEGY. It's real time, not calculated spreadsheet jerk off time. It takes away from the true essence of the game, imo.

And now I'm going to work.

You complain about knowing the map being a vital component of winning an rts game yet you bring up the lame canard in 2 that if a game is a REAL TIME STRATEGY game it must be consistent.

Please tell me in what wars, in real life, terrain knowledge wasn't important :rolleyes:

[Agge]

I'll play it and then judge it. SC wasn't perfect to begin with either, alot of tweeks have been done over the years and broodwar added to the whole balance imo.

Even soo, there are a few things that I realy hate about the new sc... It's to cartoony/colorfull and marines with riot shields == footmen... Keep Warcraft out of Starcraft.

[Lethn]

Starcraft 2 will be a failure because the real Blizzard isn't making it anymore, same goes for Diablo 3, otherwise I might have been interested in the prospect of those two games.... For the record I am actually pretty interested in Stalker Clear Sky, the faction warfare looks interesting to me.

Okay that wasn't making it clear enough... It looks REALLY interesting to me :p because you can actually influence which faction wins instead of doing pathetic little tasks for them that get you a few pieces of gear like in the original.

[Uzik]

You complain about knowing the map being a vital component of winning an rts game yet you bring up the lame canard in 2 that if a game is a REAL TIME STRATEGY game it must be consistent.

Please tell me in what wars, in real life, terrain knowledge wasn't important :rolleyes:

His point is that you have an advantage in knowing the map BEFOREHAND, whereas it should really rely on you being able to quickly analyze and adapt to the terrain in REAL TIME.


Anyways, I think there is no point comparing balance before the game is released. Things will be changing drastically at this point.

In all likelihood, they just did Terrans first, so naturally they already have all the cool stuff.

Things I noticed about other races:

Protoss:

Zealots: Charge should make them much more versatile against ranged units
New Stalker unit: Can teleport short distances (even to areas otherwise restricted)
New Nullifier: Can create forcefields that block enemy movement, Can lift things off of the ground (i.e. terran supply depots used as a blockade can be uprooted, not sure if it will work on units too)
New Warp Ray: Fires a beam weapon that gets stronger over time. So if you cant kill them quick enough, they can do real damage
New Phase Prism: Trasport able to carry ANY unit (even huge shit). It can also act as a mobile pylong (great for fire bases?)


Zerg:

New Queen: This thing looking FUCKING badass. I believe you will always start with one, and it will be central to your survival.
Zerglings: They can turn into rolling bomb things now. Should greatly increase their ability to kill armored shit
Overload: They can "generate creep" now. Not sure if that means they just expand current creep faster, or if you can fly them somewhere remote and make creep. However, it is no longer a detector.
New Overseer: Overlords can evolve into these. They are faster and stronger, can detect stealth, and spawn "changelings" which can disguise themselves as enemy units.
New Roach:: A lot of armor, quick health regen. Supposed to be very fast.


There are a shit ton more, but look for yourself: http://www.starcraft-source.com/unit-database/race-select.php

It looks like they are going more the way that TFT started to go, where unit abilities are the big important factor in a fight. So I would be that a lot of unit micro is important.

Also, it looks like there will be less rushing in this game, as the tier 1 shit seems to be ALOT more balanced defensewise.


All in all, I think that Blizzard is going to make sure that this turns out to be a good successor.


Edit: Wait, so is Obama somehow involved with SC2? Otherwise I don't see how Airius could have heard about it ; )

[alfaroverall]

All this stuff about build orders is really exaggerated, imo. Here's a sample of how far build orders alone will take you:
get 9 drones
build a spawning pool
build another drone
build an overlord
build another overlord
build 4-8 lings
expand
get gas

or alternatively:
build 2nd overlord
build 4-8 lings
get gas
get hydra den
get 2-4 hydras
expand

I'd say those are the two main non-rush build orders for zerg (though in an FFA sunkens might be added in). That doesn't last you very long.

[Agge]

I usualy go 9 drones, overlord, 3 drones then probebly another drone and the spawning pool... Or do I? dum dum duuuum!

[alfaroverall]

I usualy go 9 drones, overlord, 3 drones then probebly another drone and the spawning pool... Or do I? dum dum duuuum!
OK yeah, there's the "get more workers first" option as well. Regardless, the point stands. Build orders alone will get you up to a first expansion or rush and that's about it.

[Lethn]

If building orders are what wins a game in an RTS then that just shows you how shit a game really is :)

[Agge]

OK yeah, there's the "get more workers first" option as well. Regardless, the point stands. Build orders alone will get you up to a first expansion or rush and that's about it.

At least for us none-koreans.

[alfaroverall]

If building orders are what wins a game in an RTS then that just shows you how shit a game really is :)
Well, if you don't use a decent initial build order in SC, you will lose. 4 pooling and then not rushing, for example, is pretty much gg from the start. So is teching straight to a spire without building any units along the way.
At least for us none-koreans.
Even the Koreans diversify their game more than that. In fact, they probably do it more than we do.

[Agge]

Well, that wasn't realy what I ment, but meh, gimme a 3+ people game already >:

[AtanasRikard]

Is it just me, or do the Terran look freakishly overpowered in Starcraft II?

No, they don't.


I am afraid the skill ceiling will be lowered due to automining. This will cause matches to be won by even smaller margins or even to the point that tiny, silly mistakes causes irreversible damage that condemns the player into a lose instead of winning through better techniques, strategies, scouting, and reading your opponent well.

Somebody call the WAAAAaaaaaaaambulance, they aren't creating the game only for hardcore pro gamers WWWWWaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh h!!!!!!

[alfaroverall]

Well, that wasn't realy what I ment, but meh, gimme a 3+ people game already >:
Well, I just hopped back onto hamachi, so we need another...

[Agge]

Well, I just hopped back onto hamachi, so we need another...

I'm to lazy to ask the 2 others >:

[Solrac]

Normally I would agree with such blanket statements but he specifically points out that many of the changes dramatically lowers actions per clicks.

APC wasn't the ultimate determinant of skill but stereotypically the higher ranking players on average had hundreds of APC more than lower skilled players.

When you watch games you can tell a good portion of their clicks are a waste hence the reason why a small number of programers exist who have an APC far below the norm because they don't waste clicks, but their average is still far above noob levels.


By lowering the APC requirements noobs are going to be far more competitive than before.

Although I don't really think it'll happen that way, I'm glad they are doing it, makes the games more enjoyable since they'll require you to be far better than your opponent.

I don't understand how you will not enjoy games more like this.

[Agge]

I think there is a fine line betwen:

1. Forcing the player to be to active soo ya can't acctualy take some time in the game to just look at whats happening and enjoying the show. Basicly mini map jumping al the damn time clicking buildings etc to put some units in production, placing new units where you want them etc.

2. Not enough player control/over simplification.

Attack move is one of those features that I think is perfectly in the middleground betwen the two, it's nothing you would use for optimal preformance but it's good enough at times and definetly lets you enjoy the show.

[Airius Droc]

You complain about knowing the map being a vital component of winning an rts game yet you bring up the lame canard in 2 that if a game is a REAL TIME STRATEGY game it must be consistent.

Please tell me in what wars, in real life, terrain knowledge wasn't important :rolleyes:

That's a very good point. Here's what I was saying...

If I play a multiplayer map...I'm likely to have an opponent that plays 100% of his time on one fucking map. The guy has one strategy for that ONE map and systematically waits for someone to play him so he can spring that one strategy on that one map.

I don't remember real life wars being fought this way. No one's ever had a 100% choice of where to fight their battles.

[alfaroverall]

That's a very good point. Here's what I was saying...

If I play a multiplayer map...I'm likely to have an opponent that plays 100% of his time on one fucking map. The guy has one strategy for that ONE map and systematically waits for someone to play him so he can spring that one strategy on that one map.

I don't remember real life wars being fought this way. No one's ever had a 100% choice of where to fight their battles.
This is why you don't play on bnet, or else host your own games with maps that aren't played very often (or are even player-made). When we forumfallers play together over hamachi, we hardly know the map at all. Often we don't even know where the start points are until the game begins. It makes the game a lot more interesting.

[Airius Droc]

New Queen: This thing looking FUCKING badass. I believe you will always start with one, and it will be central to your survival.

I don't see it that way. The Queen (at least what I've seen in videos) seems like a dumb "character" type troop that's more of a liability than anything else.

I dig the fact that when the Queen dies it's dead however.

Edit: Wait, so is Obama somehow involved with SC2? Otherwise I don't see how Airius could have heard about it ; )

Obama is really a secret Protoss.

[Airius Droc]

This is why you don't play on bnet, or else host your own games with maps that aren't played very often (or are even player-made). When we forumfallers play together over hamachi, we hardly know the map at all. Often we don't even know where the start points are until the game begins. It makes the game a lot more interesting.

Yeah, well that would make a big difference. Still, I wish people would just make good games in the first place.

[CyBrEn]

I think, in Starcraft in particular, higher order RTS play is about strategy. Once you know all the maps you'll be playing on well enough, or are experienced enough to be able to exploit the map based just on the preview you get on the lobby, it becomes about effectively utilizing your race and position.
Intermediary play, where people know the game and know how 'good' players play is more like Rock Paper scissors because often they're just mimicking build orders used by professional players in south korea. This works, to a point, but without understanding the strategy you will lose to anyone who identifies it and counters properly. i haven't followed SC2 much but I imagine the balance will carry on until things are, like they are with SC1, roughly even.

[Weeking]

One thing you could do in SC, that was too difficult, but pretty cool IMO, to do was to get infested terrans and put them into overlords, then you have really powerful bombers capable of destroying the toughest units and clusters of units. If you could get the IT and there wasn't a whole bunch of antiair or siege tanks around, it was pretty effective, especially as it is cloaked like burrowed, but able to move fast and through ground units to hit in the middle of them and unload closer than what you would get by burrowing and more hitpoints as they hit the overlord at first instead of the bomb and the overlords were cheap for cannonfodder anyway, so it was viable to bring extra for fodder or only put one IT in each.

In SC2, you have much easier access to selfdestructing units, although they are weaker and I'm not sure if they have AoE. I'll be playing with my zeppelins I think.

[Xife]

Starcraft 2 will be a failure because

It is impossible for SC2 to fail, DUCY??

[Elxu]

I don't see it that way. The Queen (at least what I've seen in videos) seems like a dumb "character" type troop that's more of a liability than anything else.

I dig the fact that when the Queen dies it's dead however.


Here's a quote from Sc2Armory:

The original StarCraft had a units called Queens, but the Queen in StarCraft II is so different, that its form and function do not at all resemble the Queens from the original game. The two units merely share a name.

In StarCraft II, Queens are birthed directly out of the Hatchery, and you can only control one at a time. The Queen is a powerful fighting unit, but more importantly, she orchestrates the defense of Zerg bases by using a number of unique abilities. Queens can create special structures that expand the base of creep, or act as stationary defense turrets.

Also, as Queens evolve, they can gain new abilities such as Deep Tunnel, which allows the Queen to instantly move to any of your buildings on the map. The Toxic Creep ability makes a small area of creep damaging to enemy ground units standing on it. Swarm Infestation lets the Queen temporarily turn any Zerg building into a defensive turret that shoots at enemies, while Regeneration lets the Queen quickly heal any damaged Zerg structures.

[Bingebam]

I always thought starcraft was unbalanced too. Fun game, but when you got into it with people that knew what they were doing it became less of a chess match and more of a game of rock paper scissors.

oh wow

[Uzik]

I don't see it that way. The Queen (at least what I've seen in videos) seems like a dumb "character" type troop that's more of a liability than anything else.

I dig the fact that when the Queen dies it's dead however.

I looks like the Queens morphs 3 or so times into a bigger version of itself. My bet would be that it will be able to defend harvesters from rush and air raids.

[Atnas]

I have only read a fraction of the thread, but I think this whole "Oh god more things are automated now it sucks" is bullshit. The skill move over to other parts of the game.

[Crying Hyena]

I thought if you set your rally point on a resource in SCI they auto mined.

[Uzik]

I thought if you set your rally point on a resource in SCI they auto mined.

They did.

And you could Shift + build to queue up stuff.

So everyone need to stfu about automation.

[Weeking]

They did.

And you could Shift + build to queue up stuff.

So everyone need to stfu about automation.

They didn't. Can't remember exactly how it was. Either they didn't start mining or they all decided to mine the same node. And I think they just queued to mine it instead of actually getting any mining done. They did in warcraft 3 however.

[Uzik]

They didn't. Can't remember exactly how it was. Either they didn't start mining or they all decided to mine the same node. And I think they just queued to mine it instead of actually getting any mining done. They did in warcraft 3 however.

I am fairly certain they would eventually make their way to nodes if you just queued them up and let them be. It may have been that they sat idle at the crystal until the guy who was working on it left, but then they would spread out and mine separate shit.

Either way, making the game require fewer mouse clicks doesn't make the it "ZOMG ITS LIKE CHILDREN GAEM NOW!!!11one1".

[Xife]

I have only read a fraction of the thread, but I think this whole "Oh god more things are automated now it sucks" is bullshit. The skill move over to other parts of the game.

Explain to me how having the drones/probes/scv's automatically mine increases the skill involved??

If anything it decreases the skill involved... perhaps only by a little, but starcraft is about doing all of these little things properly to get ahead of your opponent.

At the same time I'm not terribly upset about it, I can just see both sides of the argument.

[Gunther TheBlack]

Explain to me how having the drones/probes/scv's automatically mine increases the skill involved??

If anything it decreases the skill involved... perhaps only by a little, but starcraft is about doing all of these little things properly to get ahead of your opponent.

At the same time I'm not terribly upset about it, I can just see both sides of the argument.

It decreases a bit of micro and increases macro skill involved(since there is less to micro ;)).

[Uzik]

Explain to me how having the drones/probes/scv's automatically mine increases the skill involved??

If anything it decreases the skill involved... perhaps only by a little, but starcraft is about doing all of these little things properly to get ahead of your opponent.

At the same time I'm not terribly upset about it, I can just see both sides of the argument.

You're right.

The point of an RTS is to see who can click on their drones faster, not who has a better strategy...

[AtanasRikard]

Explain to me how having the drones/probes/scv's automatically mine increases the skill involved??

If anything it decreases the skill involved... perhaps only by a little, but starcraft is about doing all of these little things properly to get ahead of your opponent.

At the same time I'm not terribly upset about it, I can just see both sides of the argument.

It allows you the opportunity to apply your skills to different areas, therefore increasing those skills. So, it all balances out. Certain people need to get over the fact that games aren't created for only the super leet no life's who spend every waking moment practicing their e-skills.

[Ganon]

you all need moar vespene gas!

[Uzik]

you all need moar vespene gas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRvxt_Gjl-o

[surGeonFFS]

Automine and multiple building selection is a HORRIBLE feature. It takes away the need for you to be in your base building your economy and producing units entirely. Enoy spending 90% of the game out in the field microing your units. Pure micro is easy, microing well while simultaneously never missing a single production round, rally pointing your factories, expanding, building a couple of buildings and putting your SCVs to mine is what takes skill and time to master. Having to divide your focus and prioritize is what makes Starcraft fun and competitive, and is what is causing the high APM requirement. It will be like playing Quake3 on half speed.

What's worse is that they're also dumbing down the micro side of things. Autocast, continuous firing etc.

I didn't think I'd find people defending Starcraft 2 on this forum since the very cancer that is killing the MMO genre is now killing RTS too. Can't you see? Starcraft 2 is the WoW of RTS.

Fuck you blizzard, fuck you.

You're right.

The point of an RTS is to see who can click on their drones faster, not who has a better strategy...

That's not the point. Execution should be as important as strategy or else the game is just rock paper scissors where the one who chooses the right counter strategy comes out on top. Indeed this is the VERY SAME ARGUMENT that is made by WoW carebears for their damn clickfest.

[Agge]

They have the very same things for warcraft 3, yet people seem to able to play it on diffrent levels no? Although I dislike wc3, moastly because of heroes, the "upkeep" bullshit and the low unit cap.

[Gunther TheBlack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRvxt_Gjl-o

Euro dance ftw!!!

[Elxu]

Automine and multiple building selection is a HORRIBLE feature. It takes away the need for you to be in your base building your economy and producing units entirely. Enoy spending 90% of the game out in the field microing your units. Pure micro is easy, microing well while simultaneously never missing a single production round, rally pointing your factories, expanding, building a couple of buildings and putting your SCVs to mine is what takes skill and time to master. Having to divide your focus and prioritize is what makes Starcraft fun and competitive, and is what is causing the high APM requirement. It will be like playing Quake3 on half speed.

What's worse is that they're also dumbing down the micro side of things. Autocast, continuous firing etc.

I didn't think I'd find people defending Starcraft 2 on this forum since the very cancer that is killing the MMO genre is now killing RTS too. Can't you see? Starcraft 2 is the WoW of RTS.

Fuck you blizzard, fuck you.



That's not the point. Execution should be as important as strategy or else the game is just rock paper scissors where the one who chooses the right counter strategy comes out on top. Indeed this is the VERY SAME ARGUMENT that is made by WoW carebears for their damn clickfest.

Stop your crying. Games are supposed to be fun, not sport.

[Uzik]

Euro dance ftw!!!

Yes.

What Europeans lack in manliness, they make up for with silly looking dance moves!


moar glowsticks!

[Rokolith]

You mean like set waypoints to the resources? That's no big deal. Just a hell of a lot more convenient. Should have been in SC1.

:(


You not play SC much.

[alfaroverall]

I am fairly certain they would eventually make their way to nodes if you just queued them up and let them be. It may have been that they sat idle at the crystal until the guy who was working on it left, but then they would spread out and mine separate shit.

Either way, making the game require fewer mouse clicks doesn't make the it "ZOMG ITS LIKE CHILDREN GAEM NOW!!!11one1".
If you send them all to a single node manually, one will mine and the others will sit idle and later proceed to spread out, but there is no way to actually set rally points that make units mine in SC1.

As for this whole automine/MBS discussion: I'd say SC1 currently has about a perfect amount of mandatory micro in. If SC2 takes out worker micro and "clicking every single freaking building" micro and replaces it with abilities, complex "unit dancing" patterns, and so on, that's a step in the right direction, imo. If it doesn't replace that micro with anything, then I agree with the skeptics that the game is being dumbed down.

Also, just a thought: if SC2 does wind up too dumbed down for you, so fucking what? Stick to SC1. It's not like every single person who plays SC1 is going to permanently stop playing it when SC2 releases. If you turn out to be right, most likely a lot of people will agree with you. There's also a reason why SC1 has survived the release of so many RTS games with more advanced features and concepts.

[surGeonFFS]

Stop your crying. Games are supposed to be fun, not sport.

What does any of what I said have to do with it's status as a sport? I just happen to think a game that is about player skill is fun and so does alot of other people apparently since all the multiplayer greats have been highly competitive.

Show me a game that succeeded because of it's multiplayer and wasn't competitive.

[sorros]

DoW2 owns SC2.

[Elxu]

What does any of what I said have to do with it's status as a sport? I just happen to think a game that is about player skill is fun and so does alot of other people apparently since all the multiplayer greats have been highly competitive.

Show me a game that succeeded because of it's multiplayer and wasn't competitive.

My point is that you shouldn't prioritize competitiveness too much over comfort. Those new features make playing SC2 much less stressing and even tho they lower the skill-cap it doesn't mean that casual players could struggle against a player who knows what to do.

[surGeonFFS]

My point is that you shouldn't prioritize competitiveness too much over comfort. Those new features make playing SC2 much less stressing and even tho they lower the skill-cap it doesn't mean that casual players could struggle against a player who knows what to do.

And why is less stressing gameplay a good thing? It means it will be ALOT easier to keep control of everything. You won't see people's control letting them down in those game deciding moments. It's like comparing tic tac toe to chess, chess is simply a deeper and richer game.

It's not that the game won't take skill at all or even less skill that Starcraft, what edge you have on your opponents is irrelevant, it's that it will take a lot less varieties of skill and the wrong kinds of skills. Even WoW takes skill, the best players usually win even if they have equal gear.

Making a game simpler is not an improvement imo.

[Elxu]

And why is less stressing gameplay a good thing? It means it will be ALOT easier to keep control of everything. You won't see people's control letting them down in those game deciding moments. It's like comparing tic tac toe to chess, chess is simply a deeper and richer game.


For almost any game, its the casual players, who are the majority of game community. That is the reason for not making the game too hard to get into. Using your example; you can play tic tac toe easily over and over without having much trouble but for chess you have to have a plan, know your opponents next move and concentrate all the time. This is good for pro-players but bad for the majority.


It's not that the game won't take skill at all or even less skill that Starcraft, what edge you have on your opponents is irrelevant, it's that it will take a lot less varieties of skill and the wrong kinds of skills. Even WoW takes skill, the best players usually win even if they have equal gear.

True.

Making a game simpler is not an improvement imo.
But making it more fun is in my opinion.


And edit: We see things in two different points of view. You are with pro-players while I'm with casuals. Neither of us is right or wrong so lets forget this whole argument.

[Ignignokt]

Going to disregard most of this thread because I've read too much about MBS and automine on the sc2 forum. Though I will say, both will be in game whether you like it or not, so....lol.

I think zerg actually seems more overpowered than terran. The ultralisks are freaking ridiculous now. They can hit multiple units at once, and there is a video of a match where an ultralisk survives a nuclear bomb landing on it's back. Also, ultralisks can burrow now.

Seemingly worse is the roach which has something like 90 hp, and regenerates 15 hp/s, at roughly the same cost as a hydralisk.

Even protoss has things that seem overpowered. The immortal is pretty ridiculous. A group of those can require quite the effort to stop, since they can't take more than 10 damage in a single hit. This unit alone > any sc1 terran defense. Imagine defending against this as terran now. With your tanks no longer providing the primary defense, which units do you fall back on? Marines? They have always been weak, though they do get an hp upgrade in sc2.

Protoss can also make temporary "walls" anywhere on the map with ease. In one video, they wall zerglings through an artificial choke point as stalkers shoot them. Then the stalkers teleport to the other side of the wall and continue blasting away.

Also, one of the sc "pros" made commentary about his matches, and he said he thought the most overpowered unit was the colossus.

Bottom line, every race seems stronger. I think they will pull off a very balanced game in the end.

[surGeonFFS]

For almost any game, its the casual players, who are the majority of game community. That is the reason for not making the game too hard to get into. Using your example; you can play tic tac toe easily over and over without having much trouble but for chess you have to have a plan, know your opponents next move and concentrate all the time. This is good for pro-players but bad for the majority.

I don't care about the majority, the majority love games like WoW, the majority voted to put Bush in office. What is fun and what isn't is subjective. I'm well aware that blizzard is selling us out to the carebears and that's exactly what I'm saying. You're saying they're making it more fun but they're not making it more fun for me or anyone else who actually still plays the old Starcraft. I also doubt that the majority would prefer it anyway, time and time again we see that both casual and competitive RTS players flock to the same games.

But making it more fun is in my opinion.

Except it's not more fun, it's just more shallow.

And edit: We see things in two different points of view. You are with pro-players while I'm with casuals. Neither of us is right or wrong so lets forget this whole argument.

I don't think shallower gameplay benefits casuals though. I consider myself a casual player but I still love the game and I love it exactly because it's complex and because you're not always on top of things.

I can't argue about what other people might find fun, I only know what I like and what made Starcraft great, and all those things are getting ripped out of Starcraft 2.