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Kyur
06-02-2008, 05:05
I'm sorry if an Ipower clip has already been posted and you guys are sick of hearing this, but a new clip has been posted that really gets to the heart of the problem. again, i'm sorry if this has already been posted, I only try to get the word out like everyone should.

http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality

A company here in Canada, Bell, has actually started this process recenetly, they have lost something like 10% of their subscribers because of this form of boycott from the ineternet.

Bravot
06-02-2008, 05:15
Those guys are twats.

Either way, you won't see a large uprising until the problems are UPON us.

heroshade
06-02-2008, 05:17
Those guys are twats.

Either way, you won't see a large uprising until the problems are UPON us.


even then, you probably wont see much more than a few protests.

Galadon
06-02-2008, 05:17
Well...all I can say is that the ISP's and companies planning to do this...underestimate the "people of the internet" they believe that we are like our parents, that we are apathetic...but the lack of television has made the apathy wear off.

Sure right now other then iPower nobody is speaking out against this. The ISP's think everyone will freely take such a change because nobody is really doing anything now.

But doing what they plan to do, will be literally opening Pandora's Box.


If a they are successful even after retaliation/protest from users.

I'll become a hermit, I won't use the internet just like I hardly every watch TV anymore...as in I only watch movies on TV...

Xinnro
06-02-2008, 05:18
Well the word is ending in 2012..so of course there will be no more internet.

heroshade
06-02-2008, 05:22
Well the word is ending in 2012..so of course there will be no more internet.

i hope it ends in a cool way. like a world wide cheerleader uprising....that is somehow succesful

Rahavin
06-02-2008, 05:26
i hope it ends in a cool way. like a world wide cheerleader uprising....that is somehow succesful


Really? Not zombie apocalypse? Really?



Are you sure?

heroshade
06-02-2008, 05:28
Really? Not zombie apocalypse? Really?



Are you sure?

well i guess zombie cheerleaders but meh.


besides, most cheerleaders i know have the same IQ as most of the zombies i know

Ungraylessness
06-02-2008, 05:29
Really? Not zombie apocalypse? Really?
Are you sure?

On 12/21/12 the earth will reach a point in space and time that is perpendicular to the center of the universe causing our souls to be lifted and allowing us to achieve total and pure enlightenment.

heroshade
06-02-2008, 05:30
wrong. in 2012 bush will return to gain vengence

Kyur
06-02-2008, 05:40
This is happening, it is to a point where it isnt funny anymore joking about it, unless you want tiers of internet. I mean honestly, it will cost you thousands a month to get the kind of internet we have for 30 bucks a month right now.

Want to stream a youtube video? LOL! You will be streaming a youtube video at the speed of a 56k modem. And that's not an exageration, sites like Darkfall.com will take minutes to load, everything, your games, your bittorrent, your videos, will all be throttled to a point UNLESS you pay extra to get the next tier of internet or service. Is that funny to you..

Xinnro
06-02-2008, 05:44
This is happening, it is to a point where it isnt funny anymore joking about it, unless you want tiers of internet. I mean honestly, it will cost you thousands a month to get the kind of internet we have for 30 bucks a month right now.

Want to stream a youtube video? LOL! You will be streaming a youtube video at the speed of a 56k modem. And that's not an exageration, sites like Darkfall.com will take minutes to load, everything, your games, your bittorrent, your videos, will all be throttled to a point UNLESS you pay extra to get the next tier of internet or service. Is that funny to you..

Doubtful.

Something like this will never happen.

People are dependant upon the internet the way it is today. If they do this with the internet get ready for MASS riots everywhere and mass boycotts. If it did go through, it wouldn't last a month.


I'm not really worried about it.

omnigol
06-02-2008, 06:49
Can someone explain the problem in like 5 sentences. So far I've deciphered this: Companies charge money for various internet related services. If you pay more money you get more services. Somehow the fact people with more money can get more bandwidth means normal users should moan and panic because indefinitely some 'infinitely powerful corporation' will steal all the bandwidth. Oh gawd the terror of free market.

Spart
06-02-2008, 06:55
Doubtful.

Something like this will never happen.

People are dependant upon the internet the way it is today. If they do this with the internet get ready for MASS riots everywhere and mass boycotts. If it did go through, it wouldn't last a month.


I'm not really worried about it.

Can we start killing off anyone involved with the change if this goes through?

jordanleroux
06-02-2008, 06:57
I become violent when stripped of what I am entitled to.

Xinnro
06-02-2008, 06:57
Can we start killing off anyone involved with the change if this goes through?

Honestly, it's wouldn't be surprising if some people did begin killing people involved with the change. Some people are INCAPABLE of living without the internet as it currently is.

Lethn
06-02-2008, 06:58
"Every significant Internet provider around the globe is currently in talks with access and content providers to transform the internet into a television-like medium: no more freedom, you pay for a small commercial package of sites you can visit and you'll have to pay for seperate subscriptions for every site that's not in the package."

So we're forced to pay ALONG with our ISP connection for a package that only gives us access to a few sites, chock full of adverts and we also have to pay subscriptions for sites that aren't going to be in the package as well?

...... Yeah I really see this taking over the world, you sure your not a viral marketer? Fibre Optic internet has a better chance than this crap, at least it's offering something decent for taking all your money. In my opinion the Internet is the true definition of freedom anyone can post anything, create anything and talk about anything within reason and if that's taken away then a LOT of people are going to be pissed, I don't see this happening at all, in fact the ISPs and these guys are probably going to get stomped on pretty hard, they can gloss it over with cheerful 'good guy' piano music but in the end they're trying to take away our freedom.

Krylas
06-02-2008, 07:12
On 12/21/12 the earth will reach a point in space and time that is perpendicular to the center of the universe causing our souls to be lifted and allowing us to achieve total and pure enlightenment.

You played assassin's creed?

dhmacdonell
06-02-2008, 12:46
well i guess zombie cheerleaders but meh.


besides, most cheerleaders i know have the same IQ as most of the zombies i know

Wait, you know zombies? or you DON'T know any cheerleaders... which is it?

Tharkon Fargor
06-02-2008, 12:52
Why are people so negative? Why don't you bloody revolt then?
If you think this is so sick...Talk with your friends, stop playing games and start political groups. Go against this.

Tharkon Fargor
06-02-2008, 12:57
"Every significant Internet provider around the globe is currently in talks with access and content providers to transform the internet into a television-like medium: no more freedom, you pay for a small commercial package of sites you can visit and you'll have to pay for seperate subscriptions for every site that's not in the package."

So we're forced to pay ALONG with our ISP connection for a package that only gives us access to a few sites, chock full of adverts and we also have to pay subscriptions for sites that aren't going to be in the package as well?

...... Yeah I really see this taking over the world, you sure your not a viral marketer? Fibre Optic internet has a better chance than this crap, at least it's offering something decent for taking all your money. In my opinion the Internet is the true definition of freedom anyone can post anything, create anything and talk about anything within reason and if that's taken away then a LOT of people are going to be pissed, I don't see this happening at all, in fact the ISPs and these guys are probably going to get stomped on pretty hard, they can gloss it over with cheerful 'good guy' piano music but in the end they're trying to take away our freedom.

Ever heard of Internet 2?

Arkh
06-02-2008, 13:02
Well...all I can say is that the ISP's and companies planning to do this...underestimate the "people of the internet" they believe that we are like our parents, that we are apathetic...but the lack of television has made the apathy wear off.
So much naivity.

Tharkon Fargor
06-02-2008, 13:05
If you think he's naive, make it your call in life that he be not naive.
That is turn over people so that they will become reactionary and deal with this and not just sit by when it happens.

Aragoni
06-02-2008, 13:05
Why are people so negative? Why don't you bloody revolt then?
If you think this is so sick...Talk with your friends, stop playing games and start political groups. Go against this.

I agree with this statement. Sitting on the web and complain probably won't do shit..... unless you get 4chan on your side, of course.

Spikey
06-02-2008, 13:12
I doubt this will ever work. I would stop paying for the internet if it did happen, I'm sure a lot of other people would to and they'd go back to the way it is now.

Nexus
06-02-2008, 13:23
I like the bit at 6.22 in the video.

paade
06-02-2008, 13:31
wont work.

EDIT: nice tits by the way

IcePillow
06-02-2008, 13:31
Uuuh! I wan't free access to my porn!

Phalanx
06-02-2008, 13:45
What am I missing? Just change ISP and eventually the ISPs who don't do this will gain a lot of customers, and the ones doing this will be pushed aside and forgoteen about.

Spineless_DoO
06-02-2008, 15:05
This came to light because of the cell phones. These elite media orgs that feed you shit for breakfast lunch and dinner every day realised that well... if we take an inch we can take a mile. This has been coming for a very long time.

Zwarp
06-02-2008, 15:08
Np I won't use it anymore if it becomes the norm.
If they add a MMORPG account I could be tempted, but if you have to pay like its a TV, fuck it :p

Shamoke
06-02-2008, 15:16
I hardly even use the popular sites, so yeah there would be no point for me to even have the internet then. I like looking around and reading massive amounts of stupid shit like these forums and other forums and just general stuff people like to post about or factoids about whatever.

Also this sounds somewhat close to what someone said a year or so ago. He said that television, movies, and the internet would all be fused into one super enterainment thingy. So I think this article is kind of missing a massive amount of details.

Zwarp
06-02-2008, 15:26
Also this sounds somewhat close to what someone said a year or so ago. He said that television, movies, and the internet would all be fused into one super enterainment thingy. So I think this article is kind of missing a massive amount of details.

Yeah thats true, in my country they want to cut the ads on TV and increase the taxes on computers and internet instead, that's lame

Matriel
06-02-2008, 15:45
So much stupid shit in this thread by people that don't understand how ISP's work. :bang:

Leonon
06-02-2008, 16:03
So much stupid shit in this thread by people that don't understand how ISP's work. :bang:Go forth Matriel, and provide an explanation for the confused masses!

Or a link; I think they'd accept a link too.

stalwart
06-02-2008, 16:08
i fapped to her tits.

akrippler
06-02-2008, 16:10
i fapped to her tits.

The only reason hes a little late to this conversation.

Shamoke
06-02-2008, 16:16
i fapped to her tits.

I didn't even watch the video till you posted that. Holy shit that is some nice cleavage. Her tits are just like hanging out in her shit.

When I look at them they tell me this, "Hey hows it going? I'm just some tits hanging here looking good showing off and shit, you know what? I really want something to just kind of slide inbetween me."

Thrill_KIll
06-02-2008, 16:34
If half the hysteria is true, I shall gather some investors, build my own ISP, and sell net usage as it stands today, as I would not go along with the agreements of the big boys.

They would make me a multi billionaire over night.

Anyone want to do a business venture with me?

LOL

FraBaktos
06-02-2008, 16:37
If half the hysteria is true, I shall gather some investors, build my own ISP, and sell net usage as it stands today, as I would not go along with the agreements of the big boys.

They would make me a multi billionaire over night.

Anyone want to do a business venture with me?

LOL

Do you know how fast you would be destroyed by these massive corporations? They would either have you assassinated, or just buy out / fuck over your business somehow. Lets be honest, they have a lot of power.

Deja vu
06-02-2008, 16:38
If half the hysteria is true, I shall gather some investors, build my own ISP, and sell net usage as it stands today, as I would not go along with the agreements of the big boys.

They would make me a multi billionaire over night.

Anyone want to do a business venture with me?

LOL

I agree. I have real doubts that this is possible. All it would take is 1 ISP to not conform and the whole thing goes down. There are 1000s of ISPs across the world and I doubt some ISP provider in the middle east gives a crap about some rules they make here in the USA.

Thrill_KIll
06-02-2008, 16:43
Do you know how fast you would be destroyed by these massive corporations? They would either have you assassinated, or just buy out / fuck over your business somehow. Lets be honest, they have a lot of power.


So does Bill Gates, but that didn't stop small companies from getting his businesses forced sold to stop the empire he had created. I wonder how many people here cried out against that?

The competition screamed over him making all the new technologies and programs that only worked with his OS! OMG.....he is monopolizing!

Lethn
06-02-2008, 16:44
Oh yeah I really like how they've gone and said every significant ISP is in on this and it's only AOL :p LOL so there's only that ISP and a few other companies like Myspace.com who will probably still keep their original internet access anyway, man this is stupid.

Shamoke
06-02-2008, 16:48
Well the only way an ISP could stop another ISP from providing service like we have today is by making the the government not allow rebelling ISP to use existing infastructure. That is why there aren't 30948390430943 ISP providers in your area, only a few because the government leases out the telephone poles and shit (infastructure) to cable companies and phone companies which usually provide your intermets. Otherwise it would cost 304984830943 dollars for these companies to build all this stuff, which they probably have enough money to do now.

I am not exactly sure, but wouldn't that make net neutrality pointless since the government could just give out the contracts, or permits or whatever they call them to the ISPs that won't fuck us over? That seems like a simplier solution to the problem.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Spades Felligan
06-02-2008, 17:14
Nice cleavage.

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 17:19
Yeah and the government is gonna start charging $.05 email tax tooo!!!!!! :rolleyes:

These guys don't really understand how the internet works. AT&T is already doing this, its called IPTV doesn't effect my Internet access whatsoever.

Crying Hyena
06-02-2008, 17:22
Wow she does have nice cleavage. I think it was to get use to watch the video.

Haldred
06-02-2008, 17:25
That is a nice set of tits right there :D.
On topic....
So who here would rate this vide on a scale of 1-5 a 5 just for the cleavage :P

Death's Chill
06-02-2008, 17:26
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. They think people will actually remain subscribers if they do this? It's not tv where there are only a few hundred channels, no, there are billions of websites.

Crying Hyena
06-02-2008, 17:27
On a side note, some scholars believe that the 2012 legend speaks of a social and cultural change that occurs worldwide.

Eyrothath
06-02-2008, 18:42
i hope it ends in a cool way. like a world wide cheerleader uprising....that is somehow succesful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdItwaLrv1U

That would be awesome..

stalwart
06-02-2008, 18:49
I didn't even watch the video till you posted that. Holy shit that is some nice cleavage. Her tits are just like hanging out in her shit.

When I look at them they tell me this, "Hey hows it going? I'm just some tits hanging here looking good showing off and shit, you know what? I really want something to just kind of slide inbetween me."

that's just weird. i got a tingle down my spine and onto my googlies when i read what you wrote because i thought the exact same thing you did. word for word. (or thought for word? no idea).

Malhavok
06-02-2008, 18:53
This is happening, it is to a point where it isnt funny anymore joking about it, unless you want tiers of internet. I mean honestly, it will cost you thousands a month to get the kind of internet we have for 30 bucks a month right now.

Want to stream a youtube video? LOL! You will be streaming a youtube video at the speed of a 56k modem. And that's not an exageration, sites like Darkfall.com will take minutes to load, everything, your games, your bittorrent, your videos, will all be throttled to a point UNLESS you pay extra to get the next tier of internet or service. Is that funny to you..

Oh, so you mean exactly how it works now?
NetZero $10
Other Dialup $15-20
Basic DSL $30
'Upgraded' DSL or Cable $40-50
'Upgraded' Cable $50-80
FIOS - several tiers ranging from 40-100+
T3/T1/etc

Matriel
06-02-2008, 19:17
Go forth Matriel, and provide an explanation for the confused masses!

Or a link; I think they'd accept a link too.

Go look up what QoS does. Major ISP's have been using it for years. They've been prioritizing traffic for years. I could go on all day, but I'm sick and tired of repeating how this shit works to people that don't know the difference between a switch and a router.


Yeah and the government is gonna start charging $.05 email tax tooo!!!!!! :rolleyes:

These guys don't really understand how the internet works. AT&T is already doing this, its called IPTV doesn't effect my Internet access whatsoever.

No one wants to hear what's really going on. :)

stalwart
06-02-2008, 19:18
Oh, so you mean exactly how it works now?
NetZero $10
Other Dialup $15-20
Basic DSL $30
'Upgraded' DSL or Cable $40-50
'Upgraded' Cable $50-80
FIOS - several tiers ranging from 40-100+
T3/T1/etc

i have a OC-3072 running to my house. electricity + internet bill is a BITCH each month. more or less puts me into 20 years of debt every billing cycle.

Leonon
06-02-2008, 19:33
I could go on all day, but I'm sick and tired of repeating how this shit works to people that don't know the difference between a switch and a router.OOH! OOH! I know that! Routers send all packets to every connected machine and switches only send them to the designated destination, right?

Phalanx
06-02-2008, 19:34
OOH! OOH! I know that! Routers send all packets to every connected machine and switches only send them to the designated destination, right?

No, that's a hub you're thinking of.

Leonon
06-02-2008, 19:35
No, that's a hub you're thinking of.Aw...

Death's Chill
06-02-2008, 20:16
Can someone explain the problem in like 5 sentences. So far I've deciphered this: Companies charge money for various internet related services. If you pay more money you get more services. Somehow the fact people with more money can get more bandwidth means normal users should moan and panic because indefinitely some 'infinitely powerful corporation' will steal all the bandwidth. Oh gawd the terror of free market.

The main issue is that they major ISPs will only provide packages for specific sites, and if you visit one outside of this package, it will cost extra, so the small websites are all totally screwed.


"Every significant Internet provider around the globe is currently in talks with access and content providers to transform the internet into a television-like medium: no more freedom, you pay for a small commercial package of sites you can visit and you'll have to pay for seperate subscriptions for every site that's not in the package."

So we're forced to pay ALONG with our ISP connection for a package that only gives us access to a few sites, chock full of adverts and we also have to pay subscriptions for sites that aren't going to be in the package as well?

...... Yeah I really see this taking over the world, you sure your not a viral marketer? Fibre Optic internet has a better chance than this crap, at least it's offering something decent for taking all your money. In my opinion the Internet is the true definition of freedom anyone can post anything, create anything and talk about anything within reason and if that's taken away then a LOT of people are going to be pissed, I don't see this happening at all, in fact the ISPs and these guys are probably going to get stomped on pretty hard, they can gloss it over with cheerful 'good guy' piano music but in the end they're trying to take away our freedom.

The thing I don't get, is how the ISPs actually think this is a good business move.

No. If this happens, other ISPs will emerge offering traditional rates and services, not package deals for specific sites, then everyone will use their services. If this happens, it would be an EXTREMELY wise choice to invest or open up your own traditional ISP type of business, because everyone will want a real provider.

Matriel
06-02-2008, 20:22
OOH! OOH! I know that! Routers send all packets to every connected machine and switches only send them to the designated destination, right?

No, routers route packets. Hubs and switches forward frames (layer 2). Switches do it based upon MAC addresses and hubs just send everything to everyone.

Death's Chill
06-02-2008, 20:30
Do you know how fast you would be destroyed by these massive corporations? They would either have you assassinated, or just buy out / fuck over your business somehow. Lets be honest, they have a lot of power.

They have money, but that's not pure power. They can't just fucking assassinate you, they aren't nazi's. ;)

Only a bloody moron would sell out too, unless they offered literally hundreds of millions of dollars to every company that tried to do this, but they simply don't have enough money, especially with the massive losses they will suffer from people simply not using the internet anymore if this happens.


If half the hysteria is true, I shall gather some investors, build my own ISP, and sell net usage as it stands today, as I would not go along with the agreements of the big boys.

They would make me a multi billionaire over night.

Anyone want to do a business venture with me?

LOL

It's funny, isn't it? It's actually serious though. If this actually does happen, opening your own business venture prodiving internet at a reasonable rate, not a package deal, would make you a fucking millionaire, if not a billionaire. It just depends how many other people catch on and try to do the same.

I guess these companies forget that they aren't the only greedy people on the planet. Fools they are!


What am I missing? Just change ISP and eventually the ISPs who don't do this will gain a lot of customers, and the ones doing this will be pushed aside and forgoteen about.

Exactly.

This honestly has to be the most idiotic business move I've ever heard of. At first I thought, "Fuck we're doomed", but really it's not bad. The nature of capitalism offers choice, there are too many ISPs for a monopoly to happen, especially when all the major companies actually plan to charge us more for less.

Think about it. How fucking stupid are they?

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 20:43
This honestly has to be the most idiotic business move I've ever heard of. At first I thought, "Fuck we're doomed", but really it's not bad. The nature of capitalism offers choice, there are too many ISPs for a monopoly to happen, especially when all the major companies actually plan to charge us more for less.

Think about it. How fucking stupid are they?


Check out "Nash-Equilibrium"

If there are two companies, both offer the same thing, than capitalsim starts, they are going down on prizes so they get more customers and thus get more money.
After Company A is getting cheaper, than B is getting cheaper, than A than B ....
this will go on until company A and B are down at the limit where they make just some money and cant get any lower. but raising prizes wouldnt benefit any of them. This would be perfect in a capitalist way.

Now Nash came and explained how to make more money:
Both raise their prizes simultaniously. So, there is no need for a monopoly to get the worse outcome, only the knowledge of the Nash Equilibrium will lead to the worse outcome!


So, IF(and i say if, and not when) this has any chance to happen than when all of the involved companies are going to do it.

And i dont know if creating your own ISPs is a working way, becasue the already existing ones have the money, and money makes the world go round and not ideals.



we will see...

Dredread
06-02-2008, 20:47
lol, where my internets gone?

No more?

Upgrade to fiber interweb tubes... I go ok, but not yet...

stalwart
06-02-2008, 20:54
Check out "Nash-Equilibrium"

If there are two companies, both offer the same thing, than capitalsim starts, they are going down on prizes so they get more customers and thus get more money.
After Company A is getting cheaper, than B is getting cheaper, than A than B ....
this will go on until company A and B are down at the limit where they make just some money and cant get any lower. but raising prizes wouldnt benefit any of them. This would be perfect in a capitalist way.


you're missing the other options besides Nash.

the government subsidizes one.
the company lies on it's books.
one takes a loss for an extended period of time by lowering prices to stupid low so that the other one will lose it's customer base.

the list goes on and on. all of which are predatory.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 20:57
you're missing the other options besides Nash.

the government subsidizes one.
the company lies on it's books.
one takes a loss for an extended period of time by lowering prices to stupid low so that the other one will lose it's customer base.

the list goes on and on. all of which are predatory.

yeah i know, i just wanted to show that

capitalism != lowest prizes/best customer prizes

Shads
06-02-2008, 21:04
Check out "Nash-Equilibrium"

If there are two companies, both offer the same thing, than capitalsim starts, they are going down on prizes so they get more customers and thus get more money.
After Company A is getting cheaper, than B is getting cheaper, than A than B ....
this will go on until company A and B are down at the limit where they make just some money and cant get any lower. but raising prizes wouldnt benefit any of them. This would be perfect in a capitalist way.

Now Nash came and explained how to make more money:
Both raise their prizes simultaniously. So, there is no need for a monopoly to get the worse outcome, only the knowledge of the Nash Equilibrium will lead to the worse outcome!


So, IF(and i say if, and not when) this has any chance to happen than when all of the involved companies are going to do it.

And i dont know if creating your own ISPs is a working way, becasue the already existing ones have the money, and money makes the world go round and not ideals.



we will see...

Er I don't think so, cartels existed long before Nash.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 21:05
Er I don't think so, cartels existed long before Nash.

isnt it officially forbidden in most of the countrys?

stalwart
06-02-2008, 21:14
yeah i know, i just wanted to show that

capitalism != lowest prizes/best customer prizes

it does when the government doesn't create market entry barriers. in that situation a third business would (theoretically) pop up and undercut them both.

show me a situation where this hasn't happened... i doubt you can find one. and i mean, a situation where this hasn't happened and there were bogus government regulations that prevented market entry.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 21:20
it does when the government doesn't create market entry barriers. in that situation a third business would (theoretically) pop up and undercut them both.

show me a situation where this hasn't happened... i doubt you can find one. and i mean, a situation where this hasn't happened and there were bogus government regulations that prevented market entry.

why can this third company be more effective(create the item for less money) than the two others?

if the third company is able to deliver the same for less moeny there is no need to talk cuz this will lead to monopoly.

But if the third company is a new small company than the big ones will use their money to stop the third before it starts creating troulbe(buy politicans, sabotage, sue them ...... many many ways of doing it)

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 21:32
Go look up what QoS does.


Not to mention it is fairly trivial to fake out QoS.

"Don't mind me Mr. QoS table, I'm an innocently encrypted VOIP packet.... *snicker"




No one wants to hear what's really going on. :)

Indeed. And even if they were correct, the very heart of the internet is designed to route around problems, this where applications like TOR come into play. Its too late now for corporation to try and control the internet like they say they are trying. We technical folk will always be one step ahead of corporate suits.

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 21:34
why can this third company be more effective(create the item for less money) than the two others?

if the third company is able to deliver the same for less moeny there is no need to talk cuz this will lead to monopoly.

But if the third company is a new small company than the big ones will use their money to stop the third before it starts creating troulbe(buy politicans, sabotage, sue them ...... many many ways of doing it)

If you were correct you would not be using any Microsoft products because IBM would have put them out of business decades ago. If you were correct, you would still be paying $1500 for 1.544 megs of bandwidth. History has proven you wrong, it will continue to do so.

Leonon
06-02-2008, 21:35
No, routers route packets. Hubs and switches forward frames (layer 2). Switches do it based upon MAC addresses and hubs just send everything to everyone.'Cause Knowledge Is Power!

Matriel
06-02-2008, 21:40
Not to mention it is fairly trivial to fake out QoS.

"Don't mind me Mr. QoS table, I'm an innocently encrypted VOIP packet.... *snicker"

Well sure, but we're talking to people that don't knwo what packets are let alone how to do this. ;p Babysteps.


'Cause Knowledge Is Power!

This knowledge pays the bills. :p

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 21:40
If you were correct you would not be using any Microsoft products because IBM would have put them out of business decades ago. If you were correct, you would still be paying $1500 for 1.544 megs of bandwidth. History has proven you wrong, it will continue to do so.

you know that i was showing a theoretical model, with very stricted laws, and made pretty easy.(i thought IBM created computer-chips and microsoft created an OS, so they shouldnt be in direct competition, but well, i may be wrong here)

In germany for example you can see the Nasch-Equi working. everytime the holidays beginn the oil prizes at the fuel station are going up at the same time at ALL fuel stations. thats a nash equi. we have laws which forbid any cartels, and yet it is impossible to stop it. there is no need for cartels if all know what to do when to do and why to do it!

Death's Chill
06-02-2008, 21:43
Check out "Nash-Equilibrium"

If there are two companies, both offer the same thing, than capitalsim starts, they are going down on prizes so they get more customers and thus get more money.
After Company A is getting cheaper, than B is getting cheaper, than A than B ....
this will go on until company A and B are down at the limit where they make just some money and cant get any lower. but raising prizes wouldnt benefit any of them. This would be perfect in a capitalist way.

Now Nash came and explained how to make more money:
Both raise their prizes simultaniously. So, there is no need for a monopoly to get the worse outcome, only the knowledge of the Nash Equilibrium will lead to the worse outcome!


So, IF(and i say if, and not when) this has any chance to happen than when all of the involved companies are going to do it.

And i dont know if creating your own ISPs is a working way, becasue the already existing ones have the money, and money makes the world go round and not ideals.



we will see...

Yes, but the thing is that there are hundreds if not thousands of ISPs, not two. It only takes one of them to stand firm and not sell out to bring their whole scheme crashing down, so honestly I'm not very scared over this at all.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 21:46
Yes, but the thing is that there are hundreds if not thousands of ISPs, not two. It only takes one of them to stand firm and not sell out to bring their whole scheme crashing down, so honestly I'm not very scared over this at all.

maybe thats the reason why they are creating contracts right now and start the conspiracy in 2012? so they get as many ISPs as possible?


it takes only 1? well, last time i checked AOL was a shity ISP, but last time i checked they are pretty profitable.


"Dear ol' granma, im offering you the best of the internet for only 30$. our competetors offer it for 40$"

do you really think ol granma is interested in www.fuckingnooneisinterested.in?

stalwart
06-02-2008, 21:47
why can this third company be more effective(create the item for less money) than the two others?

if the third company is able to deliver the same for less moeny there is no need to talk cuz this will lead to monopoly.

But if the third company is a new small company than the big ones will use their money to stop the third before it starts creating troulbe(buy politicans, sabotage, sue them ...... many many ways of doing it)

that's what i said. predatory regulations that the government imposes.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 21:51
that's what i said. predatory regulations that the government imposes.

yeah, this is called the real world, welcome!
(btw, no regulations would most likely lead to cartel creation which would lead to some kind of monopoly, which would lead to the end of capitalsim, although there is a "law" which states that every regulation of a free market is going to impact the market in the bad way. But, lets not go this far and end up in a economical thread cuz noone knows economy laws, we all guess them)

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 22:02
you know that i was showing a theoretical model, with very stricted laws, and made pretty easy.(i thought IBM created computer-chips and microsoft created an OS, so they shouldnt be in direct competition, but well, i may be wrong here)


IBM makes chips, computers and a couple of different operating systems. When Microsoft first came on to the scene, they were in direct competition IBM's home PC operating system, WarpOS. They undercut IBM's prices, warp is now dead. Now we are starting to see the same thing happen with companies like RedHat and Canonical (Ubuntu) do the same thing Microsoft did to IBM. With a lower barrier to entry and healthy competition, there will always be someone waiting to undercut the big boys and take their customers from. Its just like having a chick, if you aren't taking care of your chick in the sake, there are 100 other guys out there waiting to do it for you.



In germany for example you can see the Nasch-Equi working. everytime the holidays beginn the oil prizes at the fuel station are going up at the same time at ALL fuel stations. thats a nash equi. we have laws which forbid any cartels, and yet it is impossible to stop it. there is no need for cartels if all know what to do when to do and why to do it!


You also probably have a shit ton of laws barring a startup entry into oil markets as well. The equilibrium will take place once you have an insanely high barrier to enter the market. Corporation will lobby for laws that create a barrier to entry because that is what it takes to protect their markets and discourage competition.

If you want to keep the internet free, let technology and the free market do it's thing. The last thing you want is the government to get in and start regulating it. That is a sure fire way for the corporations to get control of it, because they can hire more lobbyists than average people.

omnigol
06-02-2008, 22:02
yeah, this is called the real world, welcome!
(btw, no regulations would most likely lead to cartel creation which would lead to some kind of monopoly, which would lead to the end of capitalsim, although there is a "law" which states that every regulation of a free market is going to impact the market in the bad way. But, lets not go this far and end up in a economical thread cuz noone knows economy laws, we all guess them)

God this shitty argument has been used to death, and no it does not follow. 'If we don't regulate our carbon footprints an evil infinitely powerful monopoly will arise and destroy the earth and eat your babies too, and they'll get away with it; why? because they'll be alot richer than you!' No the end of the world doesn't follow if you don't write bullshit regulations written for and by companies paying government officials off via lobbyists; that would be how corruption evil cartels and monopolies get started.

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 22:11
please dont get me wrong, im not argueing on anything, especially not on creating regulations.
all i wanted to show is that capitalism isnt the root of all good. it has problems of its own which need to be addressed.
The problems capitalism has right now may derive from (bad) regulations. The only way to show it is by creating a absolutely free market which no country has the balls to test. (especially because a law agains cartels seems to be very good)

The problem is economy isnt mathematics! there are no numbers you are adding and suddenly you have the answer: capitalism == best ever created.

so im out of this cuz its getting to broad to get on and its late

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 22:18
Well sure, but we're talking to people that don't knwo what packets are let alone how to do this. ;p Babysteps.


Of course, but you don't need to know what a packet does when you click a button that does it for you. IF all the ISP actually did this (not gonna happen, but IF) then within a few months there would be Tor like software that confuses the shit out of any QoS and your ISP wouldn't know anything about the data coming in out of your house.

Have you seen the new Bit Torrent client (few months old I guess)? It has totally fucked the ISPs that have been trying throttle back file sharing. Randomized port numbers and encryption are a thing of beauty. :D




This knowledge pays the bills. :p


... and then some. ;)

Ammon777
06-02-2008, 22:20
If that happened, I would simply stop using the internet completely and take up oil painting, songwriting, witchcraft, or something like that. Seriously I would have my parents cancel the internet completely and do something else. Because I dont watch television and if the internet became channel-based shit I would just /unplug it.

However, this is such an important issue, that I think sometime in the next few years, if a Democrat makes it into the White House, some laws will be passed that will help protect internet neutrality.

I agree that in 2012, if they succeed in this gayness, it might not last a month because of a massive consumer backlash.

I think overall the massive amount of people that use the internet now and enjoy its freedoms and openness -- that sheer amount of people will over-power the greedy corporate movements through political action.

If they piss off our entire internet-loving generation -- nearly all 20 to 30 year old males & females in Europe and America -- they are fucked as a business and I dont mean this in the sense that they will get fined and have lawsuits -- I am talking that every one of us will stop using the internet and ban those fuckers. I know I will. :bang:

Don JoHnson
06-02-2008, 22:21
You also probably have a shit ton of laws barring a startup entry into oil markets as well. The equilibrium will take place once you have an insanely high barrier to enter the market. Corporation will lobby for laws that create a barrier to entry because that is what it takes to protect their markets and discourage competition.


Well lets take an example:
im able to open up a normal store to sell food.
next to me opens up a new wal mart

Now lets say there arent any regulations

-> wal markt starts advertising cuz they can afford. They advertise with something like "our prize < prize of Don" (which is not allowed with regulations(germany) but is without)
They go down with their prizes, its so less that they arent making profit but they can afford it, i cant.

No way i am able to build a company as huge as wal mart in this kind of setting.



Regulations CAN be helpfull to increase the numbers of companies.


The problem begins with already existing huge companies. in order to be competative you have to find a hole which you can fill(e.g. higher prizes but maybe bringing the food home to the people, or beeing nicer or or or). In other words im NOT doing THE SAME as my enemy, and thus nash doesnt count.(as it is a simple theoretical idea and not the law of all laws)


but as i said, lets stop here, this will get to complicated and if any of us had the insight of everything economical he would earn about some billions a year and wouldnt be here, he would give aventurine money so they releae tomorrow :lmao:

Lotharr
06-02-2008, 22:24
This idea won't succeed. They most likely make more money off the sites now, than they will do with this kind of system, as they'll lose a lot of their customers.

Yobaj
06-02-2008, 22:31
It won't happen, unless someone here has proof that Telia Sonera (biggest internetprovider in Sweden and large in Europe) is on to this... And even if Telie Sonera (my provider) is on to this, I'll just make sure that my political party adds in it's manifest that we wont have this shit going on, and everything will be back to normal (The Swedish state is the biggest owner of Telia Sonera). The end :)

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 22:33
Well lets take an example:
im able to open up a normal store to sell food.
next to me opens up a new wal mart

Now lets say there arent any regulations

-> wal markt starts advertising cuz they can afford. They advertise with something like "our prize < prize of Don" (which is not allowed with regulations(germany) but is without)
They go down with their prizes, its so less that they arent making profit but they can afford it, i cant.


That is all completely legal here and it happens all the time, yet ma and pa stores still remain open and turn a profit. The only companies Walmart runs are business are companies ran by people who suck at running a business. This is a good thing, if you suck at running a business then you deserve to be put out of business.



No way i am able to build a company as huge as wal mart in this kind of setting.


Of course you're not. You do not try to compete with a company like Walmart on prices, that is how you run your company into the ground. Instead you provide better customer service, more personalized services, and a higher quality of products. You adapt or die, and if you like making money (which every business man does) you better adapt.



Regulations CAN be helpfull to increase the numbers of companies.


Unfortunately it is usually more helpful in making less of them.



The problem begins with already existing huge companies. in order to be competative you have to find a hole which you can fill(e.g. higher prizes but maybe bringing the food home to the people, or beeing nicer or or or). In other words im NOT doing THE SAME as my enemy, and thus nash doesnt count.(as it is a simple theoretical idea and not the law of all laws)


Yup that is the idea, and it happens all the time.



but as i said, lets stop here, this will get to complicated and if any of us had the insight of everything economical he would earn about some billions a year and would be here, he would give aventurine money so they realise tomorrow :lmao:

I actually have quite a few insights to economics, its something I've been studying on my own for years. Ever read anything about Austrian Economics? Ludwig Von Misses FTW! ;)

killerchicken
06-02-2008, 22:34
Im kind of just jumping on in here but i think this would be pretty unrealistic to happen, Theres too much competition.

Matriel
06-02-2008, 22:44
Of course, but you don't need to know what a packet does when you click a button that does it for you. IF all the ISP actually did this (not gonna happen, but IF) then within a few months there would be Tor like software that confuses the shit out of any QoS and your ISP wouldn't know anything about the data coming in out of your house.

Have you seen the new Bit Torrent client (few months old I guess)? It has totally fucked the ISPs that have been trying throttle back file sharing. Randomized port numbers and encryption are a thing of beauty. :D


Yeah, just basic reads though. I encrypt all my shit with IPSec tunnels back to within the network that I own, so I don't really need any of that.

It's really the same principle that new law enforcement techniques/technologies will stop criminals. It doesn't. Criminals just evolve as well.

Ammon777
06-02-2008, 22:48
They cant stop us !! They WONT STOP US !!!

FREEDOM !!!

Slypieguy
06-02-2008, 22:48
But doing what they plan to do, will be literally opening Pandora's Box.


It would be like everyone on the internet joined 4chan

Jezrith
06-02-2008, 23:04
I encrypt all my shit with IPSec tunnels back to within the network that I own, so I don't really need any of that.


Ppssshaw... SSH tunnels are where its at. ;)

Ammon777
06-02-2008, 23:10
Ppssshaw... SSH tunnels are where its at. ;)
Im working on two carpel tunnels, its what separates the hardcore from the casualz!

Death's Chill
06-03-2008, 00:03
maybe thats the reason why they are creating contracts right now and start the conspiracy in 2012? so they get as many ISPs as possible?


it takes only 1? well, last time i checked AOL was a shity ISP, but last time i checked they are pretty profitable.


"Dear ol' granma, im offering you the best of the internet for only 30$. our competetors offer it for 40$"

do you really think ol granma is interested in www.fuckingnooneisinterested.in? (http://www.fuckingnooneisinterested.in?)

I'm not saying they will make no money, but they will definitely lose profit if they make this change, guaranteed. Just watch and see.

If one company decides to take the high road and offer more for less, you think people are going to stick with the company switching to a less for more business model? Nope.

Capitalism only fails if there is a monopoly in place. There isn't here, so there is no issue. :)

stalwart
06-03-2008, 03:09
yeah, this is called the real world, welcome!
(btw, no regulations would most likely lead to cartel creation which would lead to some kind of monopoly, which would lead to the end of capitalsim, although there is a "law" which states that every regulation of a free market is going to impact the market in the bad way. But, lets not go this far and end up in a economical thread cuz noone knows economy laws, we all guess them)

that's a lie that government education has taught you. government regulation is the problem, not the solution. OH SHIT THE WORLD WOULD SPLODE if we didn't have the government regulations that we have is a load of bullshit.

if someone violates your rights through "cartel creation" then take them to court.

Fluffington
06-03-2008, 03:12
The internet is over rated, I listen to talk radio!

Killuminati
06-03-2008, 05:28
http://ipower.ning.com/extensions/gfx/netneutrality.jpg

LOL, nice propaganda.

Daccus
06-03-2008, 05:50
I think this is fake, that's Athene and his crew. They've posted dozens of videos none of which are meant to be taken serious in any way. I think they're just trying to start an Internet "riot" of sorts. I bet it's a prank.
http://athene.movielol.org/

Lofwyrr
06-03-2008, 06:08
Do you know how fast you would be destroyed by these massive corporations? They would either have you assassinated, or just buy out / fuck over your business somehow. Lets be honest, they have a lot of power.

You don't understand the way companies work, do you?
If you don't sell shares, you can not be bought.
An ISP itself can be very peripheral, so they can not just blow it up.
And if you build up a larger community running the ISP, they can not just kill you. They would have to start a massacre.

None of your plans work.

The worst case for the freedom of internet would be, to go back to the times, where the internet worked only over telefone.
Maybe change a few protocols.
They can not stop this.

For those reasons the whole idea of "buy out" the internet fails.

There are many more reasons, like business models, that change from country to country or even political issues.
I do not see an union between american ISPs and chinese ISPs or russian ISPs on that scale.
Every single ISP not participating will win customers.

This entire Video was a complete troll.
Even the thought on it is naive.

Galadon
06-03-2008, 07:07
This is happening, it is to a point where it isnt funny anymore joking about it, unless you want tiers of internet. I mean honestly, it will cost you thousands a month to get the kind of internet we have for 30 bucks a month right now.

Want to stream a youtube video? LOL! You will be streaming a youtube video at the speed of a 56k modem. And that's not an exageration, sites like Darkfall.com will take minutes to load, everything, your games, your bittorrent, your videos, will all be throttled to a point UNLESS you pay extra to get the next tier of internet or service. Is that funny to you..


Myself and most Canadian's are experiencing this on a smaller scale. While my general internet connection isn't throttled and connecting to sites isn't faster.

Our communist ISP's yes they are communist because we have two major companies...which means no competition....which means that rape us in the ass by overcharging for bad service.

One of the ass-raping communist ISP's which ass-rapes me just added a bandwidth cap of 60gb a month....yes 60 and for the first time ever I reached those 60 a week before the end of the month. So I've had to resort to using unstable and weak unsecured networks on my laptops wireless internet connection.

On top of that both of the ass-raping communist companies have a throttle on "power users" meaning anyone that downloads anything...where our normal connection is restored from 12am to 8am...and we're choked for the rest of the day.

A friend of mine is getting Ass-raped by the other communist pig company and additionaly pissed on, because it took him nearly 10 hours to upload two songs on our sites FTP server....10 fucking hours for a measly 8mb.

Surly
06-03-2008, 07:08
So what the hell happens to the Net Neutrality By Force of Government argument when 2012 rolls around and you aren't paying subscriptions for websites as though they were TV channels? Doomsday theorists have always enjoyed the luxury of making wild, fanatical claims and shuffling behind a curtain when their ridiculous visions of the future fade away in the vapor... when that principle is applied to politics, it's absolutely insane. A huge boost of vigor for a political movement with no side effects, by the time everyone realizes it was a complete scam it's already over and everyone is saying "Well, it sure is nice to have just in case anything did happen!". Or worse yet, despite having no conceivable impact on the political issue, claim victory for their preventative medicine saving the world. "Golly, it sure is a good thing we forced everyone to get a national ID card, we didn't have any terrorist attacks this year!"

The only thing this article had right was the first part:
"Internet providers have realized that the only way to not lose massive amounts of customers over this is to make sure there are no alternatives"

And I agree. Stop letting these fuckers get monopoly protection, natural monopoly status, and other forms of denying competition at your local government level if you're so scared of this unlikely future. Anti-trust laws exist for a reason, and market "controls" already existing under the purported goals of "protecting" the consumer by forcing ISPs to undergo massive licensing tests and fees, and in most cases actually PURCHASE a magistrate franchise just to operate (and as a state-protected monopoly, no less) in your area, have stifled the possibility of competition to such an insane degree that it's no wonder you can find a possible science-fiction apocalypse of the internet scenario to harp over.

Quit trying to remedy the symptoms and start thinking about what caused your current situation. You think you only have one or two choices of ISPs because of the free market? You think you're the only one who would pay for unregulated internet if you had the chance? You think there aren't any people willing to get together and provide the services you want? There's a reason they haven't, and it sure as shit isn't some fanciful "cartel" of corporations keeping them out of the market with unfair business practices. Oh no, they've graduated. They're killing competition by passing legislation these days.

Xinnro
06-03-2008, 07:09
This thread made it surprisingly far...

Death's Chill
06-03-2008, 07:56
I guess it really boils down to who you trust more, the government, or big business. ;)

Teth
06-03-2008, 07:59
I guess it really boils down to who you trust more, the government, or big business. ;)
Christ, that's like asking if you'd prefer to be castrated with no anaesthetic by sterile tools, or castrated with anaesthetic but by implements doused in bear shit.

Galadon
06-03-2008, 08:04
I guess it really boils down to who you trust more, the government, or big business. ;)

Thats like choosing between rape and...rape.

Teth
06-03-2008, 08:05
Myself and most Canadian's are experiencing this on a smaller scale. While my general internet connection isn't throttled and connecting to sites isn't faster.

Our communist ISP's yes they are communist because we have two major companies...which means no competition....which means that rape us in the ass by overcharging for bad service.

One of the ass-raping communist ISP's which ass-rapes me just added a bandwidth cap of 60gb a month....yes 60 and for the first time ever I reached those 60 a week before the end of the month. So I've had to resort to using unstable and weak unsecured networks on my laptops wireless internet connection.

On top of that both of the ass-raping communist companies have a throttle on "power users" meaning anyone that downloads anything...where our normal connection is restored from 12am to 8am...and we're choked for the rest of the day.

A friend of mine is getting Ass-raped by the other communist pig company and additionaly pissed on, because it took him nearly 10 hours to upload two songs on our sites FTP server....10 fucking hours for a measly 8mb.
Maybe you should stop pirating every goddamn movie you can get your hands on. Going by your usage amounts I am guessing you use Shaw, and despite my several-dozen-gigs-a-month usage (fuck yeah MMORPGs figuring that several gigs for a patch is fine too), I still get cheerful speeds and somehow avoid hitting the monthly usage caps.

As for the FTP thing, I remember when we used to get 256kb/sec upload speeds on Shaw cable. Then a bunch of cockjockeys started using their systems as leech FTP servers, so Shaw went into a rage and murdered everybody's upload. Hooray for cockjockeys.

Helgeran
06-03-2008, 08:11
Tax money built our tubes, I hardly think private companies will be given rule over them. If that's the case the Pirate party will likely gain enough votes to make it into the parliment and state run ISP will be reintroduced.

Galadon
06-03-2008, 08:16
Maybe you should stop pirating every goddamn movie you can get your hands on. Going by your usage amounts I am guessing you use Shaw, and despite my several-dozen-gigs-a-month usage (fuck yeah MMORPGs figuring that several gigs for a patch is fine too), I still get cheerful speeds and somehow avoid hitting the monthly usage caps.

As for the FTP thing, I remember when we used to get 256kb/sec upload speeds on Shaw cable. Then a bunch of cockjockeys started using their systems as leech FTP servers, so Shaw went into a rage and murdered everybody's upload. Hooray for cockjockeys.

No just Rogers. I generally don't download that much, like I said it's the first time I'd reached the cap limit because I usually only really download 5-10gb a month. But I had a clusterfuck of things I needed to download all in the same month. I promised my cousin to download something for him and it took me a week and was fucking 12gb, next to a few other things I d/l'ed earlier in the month.

Next to that was patching for games I cannot mention...NDA...well I am allowed to but I won't say anything.

Anywho I generally don't reach even a quarter by downloading pirated stuff. I'm not huge on d/ling... I like trying stuff out but if it sucks I delete it, if its good I buy it.

As for movies, I'm a film student, by that fact alone, I love going to the theater to see movies, and if I miss the semi-good ones that aren't worth the price of admission I watch them The Movie Network a year or so after their release.

The FTP server is just a normal one, nothing illegal, no leeching or whatever. Bell is throttling my friend like crazy now though, cuz he downloads too fucking much.

Teth
06-03-2008, 08:36
No just Rogers. I generally don't download that much, like I said it's the first time I'd reached the cap limit because I usually only really download 5-10gb a month. But I had a clusterfuck of things I needed to download all in the same month. I promised my cousin to download something for him and it took me a week and was fucking 12gb, next to a few other things I d/l'ed earlier in the month.

Next to that was patching for games I cannot mention...NDA...well I am allowed to but I won't say anything.

Anywho I generally don't reach even a quarter by downloading pirated stuff. I'm not huge on d/ling... I like trying stuff out but if it sucks I delete it, if its good I buy it.

As for movies, I'm a film student, by that fact alone, I love going to the theater to see movies, and if I miss the semi-good ones that aren't worth the price of admission I watch them The Movie Network a year or so after their release.

The FTP server is just a normal one, nothing illegal, no leeching or whatever. Bell is throttling my friend like crazy now though, cuz he downloads too fucking much.
Well, Bell sucks, so no surprise there. If Bell is anything like the Telus we have to contend with out west, you're a damned sight better off with the cable companies (which in our case is Shaw, seeing as Shaw & Rogers basically agreed to divide Canada up between each other).

Red Fire
06-03-2008, 08:37
I'm sorry if an Ipower clip has already been posted and you guys are sick of hearing this, but a new clip has been posted that really gets to the heart of the problem. again, i'm sorry if this has already been posted, I only try to get the word out like everyone should.

http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality

A company here in Canada, Bell, has actually started this process recenetly, they have lost something like 10% of their subscribers because of this form of boycott from the ineternet.

LOL! Dream On Kid

this will never happen :faq:

Lofwyrr
06-03-2008, 08:40
All the split parts of Bell industries should be more creative with their names, imo.

To much Bell and AT&T in your countries.

Galadon
06-03-2008, 08:43
Well, Bell sucks, so no surprise there. If Bell is anything like the Telus we have to contend with out west, you're a damned sight better off with the cable companies (which in our case is Shaw, seeing as Shaw & Rogers basically agreed to divide Canada up between each other).

It's still highway robbery, I'm paying the same price as I have before for a decreased service. I really hope that initiative by the government to forcefully make room for smaller companies to grow in Canada so that internet/cableTV/phones aren't a monopoly. But it most likely won't end well and we'll keep getting screwed as always.

Pcheez
06-03-2008, 08:47
in the UAE internet is a monopoly but regulated by the government, the ISP/internet/comms etce tc is all handled by Etisalat.

But it works and is affordable to all so no prob.

Lofwyrr
06-03-2008, 08:49
in the UAE internet is a monopoly but regulated by the government, the ISP/internet/comms etce tc is all handled by Etisalat.

But it works and is affordable to all so no prob.

Sounds much like China.
They have the most modern digital censorship software.
That and 30-thousand hired censors.

Blind_Guardian
06-03-2008, 09:03
I agree this is a problem. I have heard about it before. One way entertainment like TV, not 2 way, like how internet started, with the phone line. Most companies that own ISP's own Cable networks too.

No one is revolting, they will just slowly change it. The middle class is fat and happy, they aren't revolting anything they have too much to loose.

WTF CAN WE DO ABOUT IT??

Lethn
06-03-2008, 09:24
Virgin over here in the UK is terrible, I'm looking forward to when I can move and get a better company for my connection, I hate how ISPs throttle internet access, I get really unlucky times too when my internet just shuts down for absolutely no reason and their tech support in the UK is practically non-existent.

Teth
06-03-2008, 09:32
It's still highway robbery, I'm paying the same price as I have before for a decreased service. I really hope that initiative by the government to forcefully make room for smaller companies to grow in Canada so that internet/cableTV/phones aren't a monopoly. But it most likely won't end well and we'll keep getting screwed as always.
Well, the problem is that all the cable lines were laid by the corporations in question, so that would basically be outright appropriation, which sets...undesirable precedents. However, depending on where you are in the country telecom is a different matter; in British Columbia for example the vast majority of the infrastructure was all laid by a Crown corporation which was then sold off & privatized (which ended up fucking kidneypunching value & quality of service, hooray private industry!), so there's a little bit more...foundation? for government intervention.

It's not technically a monopoly, too; you've got your choice of the cable providers offering cable internet, the telecom providers offering DSL, and finally the companies who lease line usage from the telecom providers also offering DSL. So it's oligopoly instead. Awesome.

That said I'm pretty happy with the internet service I get out west, so hey, sux2beu or something. Shaw does a fine job on southern Vancouver Island.

Matriel
06-03-2008, 13:57
Ppssshaw... SSH tunnels are where its at. ;)

I'm too lazy to mess with ssh unless it's for management of devices. Granted, IPSec has more overhead, but that doesn't matter so much on University tubes. :p


Tax money built our tubes, I hardly think private companies will be given rule over them. If that's the case the Pirate party will likely gain enough votes to make it into the parliment and state run ISP will be reintroduced.

Well, they sure as shit didn't build ours. Nor did they build the majority of connections between large landmasses either.

So, keep that bullshit in Crapland Sweden. :p

Leonon
06-03-2008, 17:06
This knowledge pays the bills. :pMoney is power too, which seems to be an ongoing theme in this thread.

Helgeran
06-03-2008, 17:30
Well, they sure as shit didn't build ours. Nor did they build the majority of connections between large landmasses either.

So, keep that bullshit in Crapland Sweden. :p
We will and we'll keep on trucking and make this place the worlds biggest LAN-party!

What is good about government run shit is that there are lots of laws made to prevent the government from meddling with private bussiness but also lots of laws to allow people to meddle with government bussiness.

Teth
06-03-2008, 20:13
We will and we'll keep on trucking and make this place the worlds biggest LAN-party!

What is good about government run shit is that there are lots of laws made to prevent the government from meddling with private bussiness but also lots of laws to allow people to meddle with government bussiness.
The thing I like about government businesses (at least as we have them in Canada) is that if you're annoyed with how they're being run, you can take it out on the ruling party in an election.

Hooray for some tiny measure of accountability!

fRdz
06-03-2008, 20:20
It'll be just like the 70's!

I mean, I've always wanted to be part of a big time revolution.

Edit: And yeh, the main Internet deliverer in Norway, Telenor - lost in a recent court where they wanted to break out of an agreement where we paid to visit site. They wanted to break out of that agreement and make it so that the sites paid for being visited (yes, very retarded, we pay and the sites pay, WTF?) and thanks to a very good socialism country where the state kicks the ass of any company trying to make extra money. Socialism 1, Douche Company 0

Jangang
06-03-2008, 20:26
On 12/21/12 the earth will reach a point in space and time that is perpendicular to the center of the universe causing our souls to be lifted and allowing us to achieve total and pure enlightenment.

On 12/21/2012 (Damn you and your foreign date format) we cross a line in the galaxy akin to the equator on earth.

When this happens it is believed that magnetic north and south will shift. There is debate as to whether this will be a slow process as we approach and then cross the line, or a sudden process that will happen right as we cross.

Either way it could potentially cause some problems w/ electronics and such...

So sayeth a show I saw on TV a while ago anyway...

Zwarp
06-03-2008, 20:29
On 12/21/2012 (Damn you and your foreign date format) we cross a line in the galaxy akin to the equator on earth.

When this happens it is believed that magnetic north and south will shift. There is debate as to whether this will be a slow process as we approach and then cross the line, or a sudden process that will happen right as we cross.

Either way it could potentially cause some problems w/ electronics and such...

So sayeth a show I saw on TV a while ago anyway...

On 21/12/2012 (damn us format!) the world will "end", in fact a new one will be born, and only the chosen ones will live. It's a mayan theory that involves cristal skulls buried in Mexico that we have to find if we want to survive to the apocalypse !

Killuminati
06-03-2008, 20:29
Christ, that's like asking if you'd prefer to be castrated with no anaesthetic by sterile tools, or castrated with anaesthetic but by implements doused in bear shit.

although big businesses power wouldn't be as strong as it is without government support. You have to acknowledge that fact.

Don JoHnson
06-03-2008, 20:29
If one company decides to take the high road and offer more for less, you think people are going to stick with the company switching to a less for more business model? Nope.


surprisingly this is not happening in germany. we have one telecomunication provider(phone and i-net are offered by the same companies) called "Telekom". they have the highest prizes and yet its the main company in germany.
im using Telekom as well, but not for the prizes but becasue the competitioners are suck, "Arcor" for example thinks he can play my daddy and didnt allow their users to go to youporn or they are offering flatrates and than cancel all those who use it at max...
Telekom now has the problem they were caught recording phone calls

Which to choose? pest or cholera?

So, the prize is not everything, and dont forget the lazyness of people

Ultimo
06-03-2008, 20:37
Yeah, if this were to take place you would see many more internet companies popping up offering the old style of internet for around the same price as it is now.

I don't think this is much to worry about. Big business would lose in the end.

Agge
06-03-2008, 20:39
I saw some dude in that stuff that like... was the main character in some wow shit that was posted here when the roleplayer rapes somone ingame and then starts fapping and stuff.

...

I just felt that needed to be said.

Don't know what we can do to stop this frome happening. Sure seems like a tragic end, I'll guess I'll have to find something else to do with my spare time, simple as that.

Although I use the internet for alot more then entertainment.

wait a second... the porn!? THE PORN!?!?!?

Aery
06-03-2008, 20:45
Stopped watching the OP's posted movie once I saw that that extreme faggot nicknamed "Athene" who calls himself the best paladin which is one of the lamest classes in the even worse ballsucking game called WoW. He is extremely annoying to listen to and to watch at.

God, that already makes them a real sorry bunch.

Death's Chill
06-03-2008, 20:49
surprisingly this is not happening in germany. we have one telecomunication provider(phone and i-net are offered by the same companies) called "Telekom". they have the highest prizes and yet its the main company in germany.
im using Telekom as well, but not for the prizes but becasue the competitioners are suck, "Arcor" for example thinks he can play my daddy and didnt allow their users to go to youporn or they are offering flatrates and than cancel all those who use it at max...
Telekom now has the problem they were caught recording phone calls

Which to choose? pest or cholera?

So, the prize is not everything, and dont forget the lazyness of people

And there are no other companies in the area you can use instead? That's surprising, it really just defies human nature.

fRdz
06-03-2008, 20:51
Stopped watching the OP's posted movie once I saw that that extreme faggot nicknamed "Athene" who calls himself the best paladin which is one of the lamest classes in the even worse ballsucking game called WoW. He is extremely annoying to listen to and to watch at.

God, that already makes them a real sorry bunch.

biased

Don JoHnson
06-03-2008, 21:38
And there are no other companies in the area you can use instead? That's surprising, it really just defies human nature.

well there are smaller companies which offer it in a specific region but the problems rise of course with it(connection lost, or lower speed all this kind of thing)


I dont think it defies human nature. its just a matter of education i think.

If you are too lazy and you can afford item A at location A why bother and take time to walk to location B and get item A although it is cheaper?
And why take the time and walk to location B and buy item A+C when all you really want is item A and you can get it at location A?

AmonDominus
09-27-2008, 00:23
http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2

that's just bs. why the hell do these lame ass companies crave for moar money and power? be happy with what you have...ffs.

Xtra-Medium
09-27-2008, 00:30
this cant happen, people are much to dependent on the internet and love it too much. People would riot and boycott the hell out of shit, then the economy goes down.

Lethn
09-27-2008, 00:32
I become violent when stripped of what I am entitled to.

I second that, if they piss me off enough even the government should be prepared to see a revolution of a sort that no human in the entire history could be prepared for.

By the way is it just me or is the idiot girl in that vid exposing more of her cleavage a lot more than in the other vids they put up?

LordTenacious
09-27-2008, 00:40
I become violent when stripped of what I am entitled to.

Entitled? ENTITLED?

Screw it. Just...screw it.

nate4449
09-27-2008, 00:46
Well the word is ending in 2012..so of course there will be no more internet.

...Don't you SEE? The end of the internets is will trigger the end of the WORLD!

Jackhowitzer
09-27-2008, 00:50
We need The Grid.

Ocoma
09-27-2008, 00:50
...Don't you SEE? The end of the internets is will trigger the end of the WORLD!

The internets is so powerful that when they shut it off it will spontaneously evolve itself as a final survival instinct creating the worlds first true AI which immediately then destroys all mankind. :eek:

palo god
09-27-2008, 00:51
This wont happen, and even if it did it wouldn't last a day since everyone responsible would be tortured and killed by the general public in mass riots.

Spinewire
09-27-2008, 00:53
wont work.

EDIT: nice tits by the way
this


Standard commercial websites only? Sorry what? Who would pay for this shit? They think every ISP will do this, even if there is a huge market for doing it the old way? Yea fucking right....

Slaker
09-27-2008, 01:03
It is true, but I DOUBT it would even work for a week. If it does work, not every ISP's will follow this template, unless it become a law... Anyway, we should take this problem seriously but there is hope that it won't work.

alfaroverall
09-27-2008, 01:16
On 12/21/12 the earth will reach a point in space and time that is perpendicular to the center of the universe causing our souls to be lifted and allowing us to achieve total and pure enlightenment.
Here's some fun math for you:
Define the center of the universe as <0,0,0>. Call this point C.
Define the location of Earth at time t as <x(t), y(t), z(t)>. Call this point E.
C*E (dot product)=0, which implies that it the location of the Earth is perpendicular to the center of the universe for all values of t.
We should therefore already not exist, or rather, have never existed, based on your logic.

Marilyn
09-27-2008, 01:31
is this a fake? I seem to remember the black haired guy with the glasses from some stupid WoW videos

Zelfae
09-27-2008, 01:52
The new world order is coming!

empirical
09-27-2008, 01:55
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athene_(MovieLOL)

It doesn't even make sence. I have not been able to find any credible reference to this, the link in the page links to a information about a pay per use or limited access service but this is for mobile access. This is nothing to do with main access. that I can see.

I think this is nonsense and a hoax.

trichlor
09-27-2008, 02:03
Fuck that shit. I'm switching ISPs.

Ungraylessness
09-27-2008, 02:07
Here's some fun math for you:
Define the center of the universe as <0,0,0>. Call this point C.
Define the location of Earth at time t as <x(t), y(t), z(t)>. Call this point E.
C*E (dot product)=0, which implies that it the location of the Earth is perpendicular to the center of the universe for all values of t.
We should therefore already not exist, or rather, have never existed, based on your logic.

Based on my logic you didn't just post that, now what are you going to do?

Kagetora8151
09-27-2008, 03:29
Really nice tits.

AmonDominus
09-27-2008, 03:39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athene_(MovieLOL)

It doesn't even make sence. I have not been able to find any credible reference to this, the link in the page links to a information about a pay per use or limited access service but this is for mobile access. This is nothing to do with main access. that I can see.

I think this is nonsense and a hoax.
Are you dumb or just pure stupid?
Google for net neutrality and such, numbnuts.

Spawl
09-27-2008, 04:25
I would say that there are companies looking at ways to exploit everything. There are also companies looking to exploit other companies' bad decisions. Backhaul will be king going forward and the company that can provide the lowest cost backhaul and offer their customers the greatest amount of bandwidth will be the winner, both for their customers and for their stakeholders. Unfortunately, management of bandwidth by the service providers is something that will either be here to stay or the companies will go to a metered service plan, the more you consume, the more you will pay. Backhaul is going to get more expensive as demand goes up boys and girls, get ready for it.

Competition is the only way to prevent this from getting out of control. Anything we can do to increase the ability for small companies to offer service, the better we all will be.

empirical
09-27-2008, 12:54
Are you dumb or just pure stupid?
Google for net neutrality and such, numbnuts.

I have read about it already but thanks anyway. I see nothing to indicate what is being claimed here or how it could possibly be implemented.

Silly tosser.:rolleyes:

(Obligatory insult that seems to be required here)

Largion
09-27-2008, 13:38
I call BS.
Atleast untill the times report is out.