TAMING should be in darkfall.

[Brett]

Please read this thread(It had a really shitty title so I felt the need to make another thread pointing to it, Someone shoud change that threads title to make it more appealing):


http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16862

[Xzi]

Throw it in some time after release. No more delays kthnxbai.

[Poet]

Taming is cool. Unless of course it's uncool. Which it can be, if you tame some stupid T-Rex to rape everything for you. Unless the T-Rex is smart and it doesn't rape everything for you, and instead you have to rape everything for it.

Holler

[Tad]

So you bumped it, and made a new thread about it? :confused:

[MrFun]

Please read this thread(It had a really shitty title so I felt the need to make another thread pointing to it, Someone shoud change that threads title to make it more appealing):


http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16862

+threadcount

[Brett]

I bumped it then realized no one gave a shit because the title was so horrible, it was something like "A question about taming?"

what the hell kind of a thread title is that? it has no caps lock and no exclamation marks, it needs to have one or the other.

[Mhorham]

With the extensive mount and npc hireling systems taming is redundant.

[Septus]

imo tamers were retarded. Even after they implemented the 5% chance of it turning on you, or whatever it was...

It was just some guy walking around with 95% god mode, and 5% oops time to ress and recall to hythloth for another dragon pet. Wow, that's awesome...

I would much rather see mounts give added bonuses with certain skills so an elf can attack using his leopard thing (or whatever that is :P)...

I wouldn't mind any player having control over an NPC as long as that NPC isn't some ungodly thing that can ransack a village on its own. It just makes it ridiculously stupid. Trying to balance it with cost or *chance of failure* just doesn't work...

Honestly, how do you stop a dragon and a mage bombarding you at once? Answer: you don't :/

[Draugh]

Blackwatch does a better job than you do at promoting Taming.

[andy9306]

With the extensive mount and npc hireling systems taming is redundant.

I disagree, it is a different experience.

Anyway, you don't have to worry about people taming dragons and marauding around. I remember a dev quote specifically saying that dragons are untameable.

[Septus]

I disagree, it is a different experience.

Anyway, you don't have to worry about people taming dragons and marauding around. I remember a dev quote specifically saying that dragons are untameable.

Then by all means, bring taming back on the menu ;)

It would be cool if they could find an implementation with more than "all stop" and "all kill" though. Like maybe teaching your pet different moves and/or combos...

So you could have a wolf and teach him to hold down an opponent, so in that case it acts kind of like a stun... Etc... People might even use taming in place of magery ;P

[Draugh]

If they do implement taming, please god don't make it so that the pet is just another damage effect in your arsenal. I'd like to see a much more intimate, fantasy arc to being in tune with animals, like being able to use its senses, gain aspects of that creature, etc. If they are going to implement it, they should at least make it unique and fun.

[Worthless]

Taming is not a good thing to have in PvP games. It promotes people to find the biggest and most powerful creature to tame, then exploit the use of it. Take DAoC for example, after ToA came out. The class of Minstrel, which was a Insta DD class with 9 second stun and speed. It could also tame pets, that were higher than its level, depending on how much skill the minstrel had in (chants or songs - Don't recall what it was called /shrug). The minstrel would grab a pet, called a Salamander, and go do most encounters -that would require a full group or more normally- with just the Salamander and a Buff Bot.
As you could guess, people would be getting items, that were suppose to be rare, way too often. The market flooded and the price on things went way down. Leveled out at about 20% of what the item should go for, in most causes.
If they implement something like this, a similar thing will happen. Mark my words.

[Brett]

Then by all means, bring taming back on the menu ;)

It would be cool if they could find an implementation with more than "all stop" and "all kill" though. Like maybe teaching your pet different moves and/or combos...

So you could have a wolf and teach him to hold down an opponent, so in that case it acts kind of like a stun... Etc... People might even use taming in place of magery ;P

Just because dragons were overpowered in UO doesn't mean they are gonna be overpowered in this game lol...

They probably wont even look the same...

Its a different game...................

[Killuminati]

Throw it in some time after release. No more delays kthnxbai.

good point I want this game out as soon as possible.

[Septus]

Just because dragons were overpowered in UO doesn't mean they are gonna be overpowered in this game lol...

They probably wont even look the same...

Its a different game...................

I know, I was using dragons as an example that hopefully most people would be familiar with, (and for those that aren't, they'd just put two and two together... dragon = very strong, which led to overpowered tamer)

If taming is implemented, I do strongly feel that you shouldn't be able to order it around WHILE doing stuff with your character... There's nothing as easily exploitable as me just saying "doggie attack x" and then while you're dealing with my pet, I can also nuke the hell out of you...

There should be a balanced set of moves that your pet has, and a "casting time" so to speak where you have to give an order to your pet (or something of that nature) so as to balance it in PvP and PvE as well.

[Worthless]

The only way I can see them doing something with pets that would work. Is if you can do something similar to the Necromancer in DAoC. It would have to cast almost all spells THROUGH the pet. So if it wanted to do Life Tap. It would hit the button and wait for the pet to cast it. The Necro had spells too but they were small spells and didn't do very much damage. It was all pet based.

[Brett]

I know, I was using dragons as an example that hopefully most people would be familiar with, (and for those that aren't, they'd just put two and two together... dragon = very strong, which led to overpowered tamer)

If taming is implemented, I do strongly feel that you shouldn't be able to order it around WHILE doing stuff with your character... There's nothing as easily exploitable as me just saying "doggie attack x" and then while you're dealing with my pet, I can also nuke the hell out of you...

There should be a balanced set of moves that your pet has, and a "casting time" so to speak where you have to give an order to your pet (or something of that nature) so as to balance it in PvP and PvE as well.

One of the trade-offs for having a pet in DFO would be one less skill slot (or 100 less points for example) you could have used for some other skill. Furthermore, there could be certain spells that would even turn a pet against his master.


I believe the scenario of having someone say pet attack and then nuking you will definitely take place in game, regardless of whether people are able to tame pets.

The same thing would apply with hired and summoned npcs.

Bad example, bad scenario.

[BLACKWATCH]

Taming was in, was taken out for Combat animation Fluff, and should be put back in..

How else can Darkfall be the supreem Adventure game , with out Taming?
Pfffft , it cant be....

[Brett]

you jsut replied to 4 threads at once ;/

[alfaroverall]

Blackwatch does a better job than you do at promoting Taming.
Indeed, he shoves it down your throat until you're so sick of it you'd almost prefer there not be taming to piss him off.

[Jaudil]

I want to be able to tame a cat.

Probably the only people who can tame animals are maybe Rangers and Druid.

[andy9306]

I really don't think people should worry about people taming really huge monsters...I think the devs will go a somewhat realistic route with taming.

1. You can't tame anything too big because it just wont respect you and it probably wont pay attention to your minuscule body language/voice.

2. You can't tame undead because...that just makes no sense.

3. You can't tame anything too intelligent.

4. You can't tame anything too stupid.

Dragons fit into categories 1 and 4.

There will be some limitations. Probably not the exact same ones I presented though...

[Sifer2]

I really don't think people should worry about people taming really huge monsters...I think the devs will go a somewhat realistic route with taming.

1. You can't tame anything too big because it just wont respect you and it probably wont pay attention to your minuscule body language/voice.

2. You can't tame undead because...that just makes no sense.

3. You can't tame anything too intelligent.

4. You can't tame anything too stupid.

Dragons fit into categories 1 and 4.

There will be some limitations. Probably not the exact same ones I presented though...


Would Dragons be 1 an 3? Granted Dragons tend to change depending on who is telling the story. But in most RPG's they are somewhat intelligent. Either way though yeah Dragons dont strike me as something to be tamed. Your supposed to kill them for epic lootz duh. J/K :P

[Revolver777]

With the extensive mount and npc hireling systems taming is redundant.

Taming is ENTIRELY different than npc hirelings and mounts... Therefore it is not redundant.
I want to be able to tame a cat.

Probably the only people who can tame animals are maybe Rangers and Druid.

There are no "classes" in DF, unless you're saying only prestige classes should be able to tame, in which case there should be a "Tamer" prestige class.

2. You can't tame undead because...that just makes no sense.


Necromancers already can

[Jaudil]

There are no "classes" in DF, unless you're saying only prestige classes should be able to tame, in which case there should be a "Tamer" prestige class.


Yeah, thats what I meant.

[Draugh]

Necromancers create undead. They also may need to equip them, but we don't know yet. I must admit, Necromancy could be interesting in DF depending on how it's done.

As far as taming, I dunno. Undead have a reason for listening to a necromancers orders unconditionally, because they don't have personalities. I can't see a tamed wolf or bear being so trusting of it's masters commands. Necromancy also has combat spells where taming probably doesn't. The devs need to figure out what taming would be used for in the world, then design it to that. They did this with magic spells and skills too.

[Dave_sp!]

Please read this thread(It had a really shitty title so I felt the need to make another thread pointing to it, Someone shoud change that threads title to make it more appealing):


http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16862


all kill = no skill

[Revolver777]

Necromancers create undead. They also may need to equip them, but we don't know yet. I must admit, Necromancy could be interesting in DF depending on how it's done.

As far as taming, I dunno. Undead have a reason for listening to a necromancers orders unconditionally, because they don't have personalities. I can't see a tamed wolf or bear being so trusting of it's masters commands. Necromancy also has combat spells where taming probably doesn't. The devs need to figure out what taming would be used for in the world, then design it to that. They did this with magic spells and skills too.

Hey in real life there was that "Grizzly Man" that lived with the grizzlys for a long time, eventually one turned on him though (there's that 5% chance to disobey everyone was talking about)

[Echo Del' Torre]

Hey in real life there was that "Grizzly Man" that lived with the grizzlys for a long time, eventually one turned on him though (there's that 5% chance to disobey everyone was talking about)

Ever heard of police assisted suicide?

Yeah, well, that was bear assisted suicide. He wanted to take his g/f with him too.

[Samurai]

I see a few problems with tamimg:

1) Pets are imbalance with respect to each other. So every tamer ends up with the same bear, dog or wolf as they are the best at damage, defence etc..

2) Pets are imbalance to PC. If a pet on its own can put up a decent fight against a pc. Theres going to be peoblems of everyone having a pet just for the damage. It should boil down to pet + master is on par with a pc or at least close.

3) Nothing to stop anyone getting a pet for 1 skill point. If you alow people to get pets as soon as they get the taming skill then its promoting zerg mentality. A team of 100 would then become a team of 200 because it only took 1 skill point for that extra pet. No mater how bad the failure rate is people will grind it out to get 1.

4) Number of pets per char. Rather hope there would be a limit of 1. There would be nothing like increaseing point 3) if you could tame more pets.


Taming is a great idea but as I have seen in more games it goes 1 of 2 ways. Either the pets are so week and die to easily they are worthless to have or they are over powered and so everyone must have 1.

Limiting it to prestege class is probably the best idea. As then they can work in the penaltise for taking that class so that pet + master = as pwerful as every other prestege class.

[Effeh]

I don't think anybody wants to wait any longer for Darkfall so some dudes can screw around with animals.

[Shadowcreep]

Having an NPC combat pet with you in Darkfall would be stupid. Everyone would get it to some extent just so they don't have to work as much, and have better chances of survival.

If the developers can find some new way of taming combat pets, then maybe it should be implemented. But until then, no.

[alfaroverall]

Taming level 1 could allow you to tame like a rabbit or something...but seriously, mob taming is either overpowered or watered down to the point that it's stupid. Mount taming should be in however.

[Worthless]

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/4/setView/screens/display/1391

Oh snap bitches, It's a dog thingy!

[Porthios]

The magnitudes of stupidity on these boards never cease to amazing me. How the fuck can you morons not see the benefits of taming? It's a skill that is actually different from swordsmanship, war magic, archer, etc... Imagine that! A skill that you can't simply gain by clicking a button over and over again, and one that you can't use by simply buying a weapon and clicking a button over and over again at an avatar.

As for all you you people pissing and moaning about taming being over powered, there is a solution: DON'T MAKE IT OVERPOWER YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! I love how people automaticallly assume that a skill like taming is automatically going to be overpowered because developers from SOE and Mythic have the combined IQ of chimps and the best interests of carebears in mind.

In UO I believe there was like a 1% chance to tame a dragon. Well, if that's too "overpowering" (which I don't think it was because I didn't see enough dragons running around to really spoil my day) then all you've got to do is make taming a dragon MUCH harder, and maintaining a dragon MUCH harder. How uncreative can you fucktards (you've made me use fucktards, a word that I have refused to use until this day, a day that I deemed it appropriate) be? Aren't you intelligent enough to simply acknowledge a great game feature that can be implemented in 100's of ways?

I'll expand later. I've gotta to work out. I'll go work some hate out of me. ;)

[Brett]

The magnitudes of stupidity on these boards never cease to amazing me. How the fuck can you morons not see the benefits of taming? It's a skill that is actually different from swordsmanship, war magic, archer, etc... Imagine that! A skill that you can't simply gain by clicking a button over and over again, and one that you can't use by simply buying a weapon and clicking a button over and over again at an avatar.

As for all you you people pissing and moaning about taming being over powered, there is a solution: DON'T MAKE IT OVERPOWER YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! I love how people automaticallly assume that a skill like taming is automatically going to be overpowered because developers from SOE and Mythic have the combined IQ of chimps and the best interests of carebears in mind.

In UO I believe there was like a 1% chance to tame a dragon. Well, if that's too "overpowering" (which I don't think it was because I didn't see enough dragons running around to really spoil my day) then all you've got to do is make taming a dragon MUCH harder, and maintaining a dragon MUCH harder. How uncreative can you fucktards (you've made me use fucktards, a word that I have refused to use until this day, a day that I deemed it appropriate) be? Aren't you intelligent enough to simply acknowledge a great game feature that can be implemented in 100's of ways?

I'll expand later. I've gotta to work out. I'll go work some hate out of me. ;)

The reason they dont like taming is because they all got owned by dragons in UO lol, probably because the only time any of these noobs played UO was after pet bonding and after who knows what other nerfs/buffs WoWization UO went through.

Back when I played UO, if you walked around with a dragon you were a mook. Everyone at the fight would simply kill the dragon and laugh, then kill you and whoever was on your side.

The problem with all these stupid fucktards (good word) is that they have never seen taming successfully implemented, and therefore they assume its impossible.

Truth is, they dont have a fuckin clue how the devs would implement it, not the slightest idea. This game is so much different than any other game that's been released to date, that taming could be 180 degrees backwards from what these idiots are expecting.



I propose a new rule, before you want to flame the idea of taming, please explain your expectations as to how the devs will implement taming, once you have explained your position, then feel free to flame it.

If you can't be bothered to explain what you think taming will be in this game, you are retarded and should drown.

[PrimalSign]

As for all you you people pissing and moaning about taming being over powered, there is a solution: DON'T MAKE IT OVERPOWER YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! I love how people automaticallly assume that a skill like taming is automatically going to be overpowered because developers from SOE and Mythic have the combined IQ of chimps and the best interests of carebears in mind.

Despite his extensive anger management issues, he's right! There's too much bitching before anyone knows wtf they're bitching about.

[Septus]

I agreed that if they came up with a unique way to use taming and it was balanced, that I'd be down to have taming in.

But taming is hard to balance for a few reasons... 1. It's hard to find a balance when one side (the tamer + pet) has TWO people and his opponent is just one person... It automatically makes it feel like a 2v1 unless you implement it correctly

That is why I suggested "casting times" for orders you give to a pet, so the pet would be more like an extension of the tamer rather than an NPC that beats on your opponent so he can't do shit while you proceed to rape him.

In UO taming wasn't *so* bad because mobs were just slow as hell lol. But I would just have to point you to the nightmare to show you just how overpowered taming could be ;P B/c it had ranged, the slowness of the mob just didn't matter. If you never encountered a nightmare + a halfway intellegent tamer, count yourself lucky.

[Brett]

I agreed that if they came up with a unique way to use taming and it was balanced, that I'd be down to have taming in. I believe most of us feel this way.



But taming is hard to balance for a few reasons... 1. It's hard to find a balance when one side (the tamer + pet) has TWO people and his opponent is just one person... It automatically makes it feel like a 2v1 unless you implement it correctly
The same situation would apply for a summon spell, mind control spell, hireling, or hired player mercenary. This is not unique to taming.




That is why I suggested "casting times" for orders you give to a pet, so the pet would be more like an extension of the tamer rather than an NPC that beats on your opponent so he can't do shit while you proceed to rape him.

I think this makes sense. However, things like attack and return don't need a casting time, just spells and other special abilities.




In UO taming wasn't *so* bad because mobs were just slow as hell lol. But I would just have to point you to the nightmare to show you just how overpowered taming could be ;P B/c it had ranged, the slowness of the mob just didn't matter. If you never encountered a nightmare + a halfway intellegent tamer, count yourself lucky.
Nightmares ran extremely fast in UO, and so did White Wyrms. I believe the speed of any pet should be relative to its lore. Obviously a huge lumbering beast isn't gonna be extremely fast, but something like a four legged dragon who is muscular and has wings to help carry its weight (see a hydrofoil glider) should easily be able to move at great speeds.

[Porthios]

Ideally, the devs would make rare, powerful monsters fairly rare and incredibley difficult to tame/maintain. If they play their cards right, we might look at tamers with dragons as something to behold rather than an annoyance that should be nerfed.

If it takes a group of 15 people (healers, bards, mages, tamers, etc...) 10 hours to tame a dragon, and dragons are very hard to find (there aren't any gay spawn locations just for dragons) then we aren't going to be seeing too many running around. And when I do see one, and I get slaughtered by it, the pleasure will be all mine (or partly mine; either way, there is going to be a lot of pleasure on my part).

The tamer earned the right to kill me in one fell swoop and I will do my best to honor that because that's all part of being a player in a world that is as free as Agon is supposed to be. As long as everyone and their mother isn't running around with tamed dragons and uber creatures, then I only see them as being something great for DF -despite that I never played a tamer in UO, and I don't plan to play one in DF.

The idea behind taming would be to make the cost of taming upper tier mobs greater than the benefits. Therefore, this activity would only hold interest for people that really don't have any other, more efficient, way to "gain in power" because they've already got everything; they belong to a powerful clan; they own a castle; their coffers are overflowing with gold, reagents, armor, weapons, and any other supplies that they might need in 10 years; they've got the uber quest weapons that they want; they've built a rune library in their home, they've got their personal navy fleet, etc... Well, at this point, why the fuck not tame dragons. Sure, for the average player it would be more efficient to build up their armor cache, but for this dude, the most efficient way to gain in power turns out to be not very efficient -but the coolness factor makes up for it.

And lets not forget the increased player interaction that would simply come from buying and selling tamed animals.

No, I think that casting taming into oblivion would be a grave mistake; a mistake on par with discarding farming, ritual magic, or any other unique skill that would serve to set DF above its competition.

[Litar]

Taming should be like the Guide Bot in Descent with a list of "seek-out-and-find" commands to choose from. :D

[tarsus]

Like people said before, people with only 1 point in taming would probably only be able to tame like a cat or dog if that. You can also make tamed creatures weaker than wild ones as they lose their ferocity or animal instincts as they grow more acustomed to being around humans. In UO though, a tamer really wasn't that bad. I mean taking out a dragon wasn't that hard, or even a wyrm for that matter.

You can also make being a tamer take up skills if your afraid of people being stronger than one person should be:

Skill to calm (Peacemaking)
Skill to tame (Taming)
Skill to keep loyalty/follow commands (Animal Bond)
Skill to see if your pet is happy and its attributes (Animal Lore)
Skill to train your pet faster and better (Animal Training)
Skill to heal your pet (Veterinary)

[Satan]

Please read this thread(It had a really shitty title so I felt the need to make another thread pointing to it, Someone shoud change that threads title to make it more appealing):


http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16862

i prefer

http://www.brettmorgan.com/images/uo/explosion.gif + http://www.brettmorgan.com/images/uo/flamestrike.gif

only because i couldnt find the icons for mindblast + explosion + eb

[Porthios]

Well, it's at least a damn good combo if you're ganking.

[Sifer2]

Samurai pretty much said all there is to be said on it. Taming is a skill that is cool an can be balanced if the proper care is taken. But I think most of us would agree we would rather it not be in if everyone would need it to be competitive. I couldn't stand SWG during the Pokemon wars an if it happened in this game I would be afraid the devs did not understand game balance like the SWG devs.

As to rare super pets like Dragons I probably would not mind it only if pets had permadeath. So using your Dragon would be about the same as using your rare Sword of a Million Pwnings. Risky an pretty crappy if you lost lol.

[Xzi]

I don't think anybody wants to wait any longer for Darkfall so some dudes can screw around with animals.
I lol'd. And I agree.

I'm all for taming being put in. After release. But I do have one question for those of you so adamant about it:

I've never really liked playing classes in past MMOs that made use of pets/third party DPS (damage per second), so in Darkfall I don't think I would want a pet or mercenary helping me either. How would you balance the damage output between players with pets and players without pets in a game without class restrictions? Would you make the acquisition of the taming skill reduce the damage of all of your other skills/spells? I know that isn't a very good idea, I just can't think of anything else that could possibly work. Please tell me a way it could better be implemented.

[Porthios]

How would you balance the damage output between players with pets and players without pets in a game without class restrictions? Would you make the acquisition of the taming skill reduce the damage of all of your other skills/spells? I know that isn't a very good idea, I just can't think of anything else that could possibly work. Please tell me a way it could better be implemented.

First off, you don't need to balance shit since everyone has equal opportunity to either gain taming skill so that they can tame their own pets, or the opportunity to buy pets from tamers. However, if you were going to balance taming, then you'd do it ala UO: walking around with animals as a pain in the ass, they weren't always obedient (depending on how well fed they were, how well you trained them, your taming skill, the length of time for which you've had them, etc...), and they slowed people down.

Walking around with an animal was like being handicapped because you always had to be conscious of your animal's whereabouts since EVERY SINGLE mob would attack it. It would get hung up on petty obstacles (due shitty pathfinding AI) and, with the exception of a few special mobs (nightmares and dragons [I can't remember if you could tame wisps]), tamed pets were pretty weak sauce unless you had tons of them (in which case I still feel sorry for you because it must have been hell getting them all to go anywhere).

From this perspective, summoning magic is more "overpowered" than taming, simply because the traveling and maintanence problems are not present. Do you suggest that the devs take out summoning spells as well? That would be a travesty. I'm pretty god damn sure that necromancers will be able to summon undead to fight along side them. And I'm pretty sure that we'll be able to hire mercs. So, if such is the case, why not taming? It's a fun extra added dynamic to add to DF's pile of gems.

[lordlemur]

I've never really liked playing classes in past MMOs that made use of pets/third party DPS (damage per second), so in Darkfall I don't think I would want a pet or mercenary helping me either. How would you balance the damage output between players with pets and players without pets in a game without class restrictions? Would you make the acquisition of the taming skill reduce the damage of all of your other skills/spells? I know that isn't a very good idea, I just can't think of anything else that could possibly work. Please tell me a way it could better be implemented.



Any of the following spell options:

1. Spell that enrages NPC's and pets. They attack freindlies and hostiles with equal impunity.

2. Spell that charms NPC's and pets for a short duration. Allowing the caster to cause them to eat souls at their behest.

3. A Spell or game effect that causes fear, causing the pet to flee.

4. Ranged Item that uses ranged skills already in game that causes same effects as above.

5. Pet wandering distances or terrain limitations: that Polar Bear will not enter the desert, jungle, or other unsuitable terrain. Nor will it go more then x units of distance from it's home location.

6. Time limitation on taming, ie. new checks every x mins.

7. Not all mobs, for example intellegent ones, are not tameable. Perhaps they don't have the temperment. How many people have pet polar bears?

8. Limit Freind or Foe differentiation in combat. Force Tamers to "solo" if they want to use that polar bear, cause he sure loves the taste of dwarf.

9. The "Beckon of the Unholy" defense. Other creatures of the same type might attempt to liberate their enslaved bretheran.

10. Pet count limitations.

11. A skill soft cap.

Just a few ideas.

[Byggin]

Any of the following spell options:

1. Spell that enrages NPC's and pets. They attack freindlies and hostiles with equal impunity.

2. Spell that charms NPC's and pets for a short duration. Allowing the caster to cause them to eat souls at their behest.

3. A Spell or game effect that causes fear, causing the pet to flee.

4. Ranged Item that uses ranged skills already in game that causes same effects as above.

5. Pet wandering distances or terrain limitations: that Polar Bear will not enter the desert, jungle, or other unsuitable terrain. Nor will it go more then x units of distance from it's home location.

6. Time limitation on taming, ie. new checks every x mins.

7. Not all mobs, for example intellegent ones, are not tameable. Perhaps they don't have the temperment. How many people have pet polar bears?

8. Limit Freind or Foe differentiation in combat. Force Tamers to "solo" if they want to use that polar bear, cause he sure loves the taste of dwarf.

9. The "Beckon of the Unholy" defense. Other creatures of the same type might attempt to liberate their enslaved bretheran.

10. Pet count limitations.

11. A skill soft cap.

Just a few ideas.

That sounds like alot of work, coding and testing. Not worth it for me.

[lordlemur]

Honestly I think the dynamics for atleast 4 of those are already in the game.
Those being 2, 3, 4 and 11 respectively.

[FrostByte]

That sounds like alot of work, coding and testing. Not worth it for me.

Not for you but for many others.

And porthios, i love you, but not in anal+penis context *shrudders*



And to topic.
What makes people think that having a animal pet (it´s said by devs that dragons and other powerfull creatures are untamable because they would rather just kill you and anything near you, take your treasures, burn your city and let wurmlings rape you (damn those little necrophilists) is anymore owerpowered than a necromancer rising an ARMY(and this is allso dev confirmed info) of undead.

Why in the hell would pet make as much of damage as normal pc, animals have claws they don´t wield 2- handed greatswords. Why would animals have as much ac as pcs, animals have fur or at most hides/scales(normal scales aren´t any fucking all resistant dragonscales) they don´t walk around in platemail. Animals, in most cases, don´t have magick, according to devs it´s hard for pcs to avoid using magick in this game.

So whats the fucking problem?

Pets are weaker and deal less damage than pcs/npcs. You can hire npcs and necromancers can summon army of undead with greatswords and platemails, what would make taming so damn owerpowered that it can´t be balanced?

Besides, in game like darkfall it´s not combat abilities wich may cause people to choose taming. As stated before, animals suck at combat, so wouldn´t it be more benefical to have eagles eyes than it´s claws? wouldn´t it be more practical to have ears of bat than it´s teeth? wouldn´t it be alot more better to have enhanced agility of panther than it´s not so thick skin?

So what i´m saying, would it be better if pet would be something more than just extra dps? Offcourse there should be a chance to get a pet for that dps(to get that dps, maybe pet armours and weapons would be in order), but what if i could tame a pet to get scout or to get a slight distraction in a battle to gain edge over a foe?


But what ever you say, for gods fucking sake:
STOP MAKING COMPARES TO ANOTHER GAMES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH DARKFALL OR HOW COMBAT BALANCE IS MANAGED!

[Septus]

I don't think anyone said that taming WILL be overpowered... They said that you have to be cautious of it if you're even CONSIDERING implementing it, b/c every other game has made them overpowered (probably not on purpose btw).

It's just hard to balance...

W/ the necromancer, they might have something fancy like if you shoot the necro he loses his concentration and his undead army falters or dissipates - which would make it kind of like a game of chess for the necro and his opponent (necro moving units in front of him to avoid being hit). Plus from what I hear the necro himself will be frail and all of his fighting will be done through his NPC's.

As for tamers... I'm saying just giving extra DPS with no drawback is obviously imbalanced... Everyone will have to take on taming to remain competitive, and you'll probably end up with a build like this: taming/healing/some DoT magic... all kill, *begin heal* DoT DoT DoT... Oh yeah, that's fun :P

Using pets for other abilities would be very cool. And extra dps would be fine as long as it doesn't just lead to double damage if you have a pet (which is ridiculous for the reasons mentioned above). (See my earlier posts for examples of proper implementation for balance)

[FrostByte]

As for tamers... I'm saying just giving extra DPS with no drawback is obviously imbalanced... Everyone will have to take on taming to remain competitive, and you'll probably end up with a build like this: taming/healing/some DoT magic... all kill, *begin heal* DoT DoT DoT... Oh yeah, that's fun :P

Using pets for other abilities would be very cool. And extra dps would be fine as long as it doesn't just lead to double damage if you have a pet (which is ridiculous for the reasons mentioned above). (See my earlier posts for examples of proper implementation for balance)

Offcourse taming should have drawbacks, just like necromancy.

And if you read my whole post you may have noted that i said: Animals suck at combat. That kinda counts douple or even 50% extra dps out.

It´s all the matter of balancing. And somewhy some people seem to keep it impossible to balance, hence it should be left out completely. But ironicaly some of those nay sayers don´t say a word about necromancy, wich is as hard if not even harder to balance as taming.

[Fledrel]

They shouldnt need to balence anything. Even if you could tame anything it wont matter. Its up to the players to stop griefers and evil players. If you want a dragon then its fine by me, but be warned we will band together to stop your reign of terror.

[Septus]

They shouldnt need to balence anything. Even if you could tame anything it wont matter. Its up to the players to stop griefers and evil players. If you want a dragon then its fine by me, but be warned we will band together to stop your reign of terror.

You're an idiot :/

[tarsus]

It's not hard to balance at all. Besides the many different skills you could need to be an effective tamer from my earlier post, you could have bard skills counter pets. You could allow bards to sooth an enemy pet, confuse an enemy pet, provoke an enemy pet to attack its master and so on. I think it would make bards type builds a lot more useful.

[Septus]

It's not hard to balance at all. Besides the many different skills you could need to be an effective tamer from my earlier post, you could have bard skills counter pets. You could allow bards to sooth an enemy pet, confuse an enemy pet, provoke an enemy pet to attack its master and so on. I think it would make bards type builds a lot more useful.

Now you're on the right track ;P

[Fledrel]

You're an idiot :/

real nice, great explanation. My retort;
You sir are an idiot. People can handle it. If someone has a dragon pet, then you also can have one. besides if you cant handle it then run away to your guildies. Haveing pets wont unbalence anything. If you dont want a challeng then go play "hello kitty island" but at the very least be smart enough to give supporting arguments to your point. So let me reinterate, You sir are an idiot.

[Septus]

Jesus, if you honestly believe what you said then I feel sorry. So sorry that I'll take the time to explain myself.

If dragons are overpowered, like you said, everyone will be forced to get one to compete... And then the game devolves into everyone using a dragon and the rest of the game goes by the wayside.

So if you don't implement it properly, you pretty much wasted time making 500 skills b/c everyone is forced to have taming.

Aside from balancing issues, I also want a more interactive pet system - not just for teaching moves and such (that'd be cool too), but also the command system. I think just giving a target is kind of lame and half assed.

Edit: and "we will band together to stop your reign of terror." Wtf? Are you serious? If any one skill REQUIRES a group of 5+ people to fight it, something's wrong. If you don't understand that, gtfo.

[Fledrel]

I never said just let them have a pet with no draw back. Second haveing 500+ skills there will be plenty of ways to stop a tamed pet ie. breaking the control.
There is no targeting sytem they have said so >.>
as for the banding together, if you cant tell a joke then you really are stupid.
but at least you are capable of supporting you argument ::bravo::
Some people enjoy the idea of a pet, even if you dont like the idea of a dragon pet. It can be delt with. I wasnt getting in to the specifics of tameing but it seems you might need that. If you can mark an item to find when you die no matter who has it, and that can be countered if you have the right skills. So if you can tame monsters im sure they will add skill to disrupt the tamed creature. I mean come on im not saying tame the celetial dragon and destroy everything >.> Show some intelligence. Tameing is a cool idea and not overpowered. again thankyou for at least supporting a simple statement like "your an idiot" i can now tell that you arnt idiot, jumping to conclusions yes, but definatly not an idiot. and i agree if a skill requires 5+ people to stop then there is a problem, also i never said dragons would be overpowered.

[Septus]

They shouldnt need to balence anything. Even if you could tame anything it wont matter. Its up to the players to stop griefers and evil players. If you want a dragon then its fine by me, but be warned we will band together to stop your reign of terror.

Yeah, sorry if that led me to believe:

1. you thought balancing pets wasn't necessary
2. you thought it would be up to players to stop a tamer w/ a pet that could rape anyone unless you gank him.
3. that you were an idiot ;P

Try using a /sarcasm label next time... (I'm still not fully convinced you were joking btw -_-)

[Porthios]

Not for you but for many others.

And porthios, i love you, but not in anal+penis context *shrudders*



And to topic.
What makes people think that having a animal pet (it´s said by devs that dragons and other powerfull creatures are untamable because they would rather just kill you and anything near you, take your treasures, burn your city and let wurmlings rape you (damn those little necrophilists) is anymore owerpowered than a necromancer rising an ARMY(and this is allso dev confirmed info) of undead.

Why in the hell would pet make as much of damage as normal pc, animals have claws they don´t wield 2- handed greatswords. Why would animals have as much ac as pcs, animals have fur or at most hides/scales(normal scales aren´t any fucking all resistant dragonscales) they don´t walk around in platemail. Animals, in most cases, don´t have magick, according to devs it´s hard for pcs to avoid using magick in this game.

So whats the fucking problem?

Pets are weaker and deal less damage than pcs/npcs. You can hire npcs and necromancers can summon army of undead with greatswords and platemails, what would make taming so damn owerpowered that it can´t be balanced?

Besides, in game like darkfall it´s not combat abilities wich may cause people to choose taming. As stated before, animals suck at combat, so wouldn´t it be more benefical to have eagles eyes than it´s claws? wouldn´t it be more practical to have ears of bat than it´s teeth? wouldn´t it be alot more better to have enhanced agility of panther than it´s not so thick skin?

So what i´m saying, would it be better if pet would be something more than just extra dps? Offcourse there should be a chance to get a pet for that dps(to get that dps, maybe pet armours and weapons would be in order), but what if i could tame a pet to get scout or to get a slight distraction in a battle to gain edge over a foe?


But what ever you say, for gods fucking sake:
STOP MAKING COMPARES TO ANOTHER GAMES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH DARKFALL OR HOW COMBAT BALANCE IS MANAGED!
Fantastic points. Excellent post.

[Porthios]

Using pets for other abilities would be very cool. And extra dps would be fine as long as it doesn't just lead to double damage if you have a pet (which is ridiculous for the reasons mentioned above).
I doubt it would. Why? Because mob AI is retarded (much like animal intelligence). Sure, you are a tamer and you are fighting a newb that's been playing EQ his whole life, then your animal might come in handy. But if you're fighting someone that's been playing Unreal Tournament his entire life, then a wolf that simply charges and follows him will probably be a push over.

[Porthios]

real nice, great explanation. My retort;
You sir are an idiot. People can handle it. If someone has a dragon pet, then you also can have one. besides if you cant handle it then run away to your guildies. Haveing pets wont unbalence anything. If you dont want a challeng then go play "hello kitty island" but at the very least be smart enough to give supporting arguments to your point. So let me reinterate, You sir are an idiot.
While I am of the same opinion, I would like balance for a different reason. I want taming to be balanced so that everyone is not forced to get the skill, and pets, in ordert o be competitive. That's just about my only argument for balancing anything -I simply want variety because it's more immersive.

[Porthios]

Edit: and "we will band together to stop your reign of terror." Wtf? Are you serious? If any one skill REQUIRES a group of 5+ people to fight it, something's wrong. If you don't understand that, gtfo.
No, he's right. IF we could tame dragons, which we cannot, then a large group of people should be required to fight it. Why? Because it likely took a large group of people many hours to tame it.

[Septus]

No, he's right. IF we could tame dragons, which we cannot, then a large group of people should be required to fight it. Why? Because it likely took a large group of people many hours to tame it.

And then we're back to the grind for the shiniest uber weapon effect...

People will take the time to do something if it gives them obscene amounts of power in an MMO. I think we've been over that before ;P

Edit: and yes, I agree with balancing so that not everyone is forced to get a skill. That's the whole point to balancing. o.O

[Brett]

And then we're back to the grind for the shiniest uber weapon effect...

People will take the time to do something if it gives them obscene amounts of power in an MMO. I think we've been over that before ;P

Edit: and yes, I agree with balancing so that not everyone is forced to get a skill. That's the whole point to balancing. o.O

The difference between this and grinding for the shiny in your usual MMO is that once the dragon dies, its dead.


I bet there are gonna be really nice items in the game, and they will be LEGENDARY on the battlefield. If you see someone walking up with a sweet weapon, you can bet they wont be alone. If they are alone, its likely they will get ganked by everyone on the battlefield, and a looting frenzy will take place as everyone tries to get the ubar item.

This is how it was in UO when champion spawns first started, before bound items and insurance and all that gay shit was in place. There were a few really sweet drops on the corpse and it was whoever got them first, then it was whoever could keep them or manage to recall out before losing the newly acquired elite items (which usually weren't weapons, but rather rare items which served no purpose besides aesthetic value to be placed in your house as a trophy of sorts, much the same way some of us collected ears of the best pvpers).


It's not the same thing at all, septus.

[Brett]

I lol'd. And I agree.

I'm all for taming being put in. After release. But I do have one question for those of you so adamant about it:

I've never really liked playing classes in past MMOs that made use of pets/third party DPS (damage per second), so in Darkfall I don't think I would want a pet or mercenary helping me either. How would you balance the damage output between players with pets and players without pets in a game without class restrictions? Would you make the acquisition of the taming skill reduce the damage of all of your other skills/spells? I know that isn't a very good idea, I just can't think of anything else that could possibly work. Please tell me a way it could better be implemented.

You have just joined the ranks of Booze Zombie, along with Septus, Samurai, and Sifer2.


How would you balance it? Well, whatever points you put in taming is points you could be putting into a totally different skill. Not to mention, taming would probably be an absurdely hard skill to raise considering the time it takes to tame an animal compared to the time it takes to swing a sword.



There really hasn't been a SINGLE good arguement against taming in this entire thread. If someone found one, please sum it up in less than 5 sentences, and let me know.

[Akim]

I think taming would be good if they're not just another thing to have attacking people. And also no taming uberbeasts.
For instance tame a wolf and if your skill is high enough you could have it sniff around and smell if there are any orcs nearby, or maybe even if a certain person is nearby.
Obviously taming wild mounts would be useful.

and on one hand it makes sense if you have a loyal wolf following you around, if someone attacks you it will probably join in on the action. As long as it's not too powerful.

Also if part of taming, or a completely different skill, where you could get help from animals for a short amount of time, that aren't normally tameable. Perhaps a bear is untameable but you could stop it from attacking you and allies for a short duration, or getting a squirrel to look around for some food in the wilderness if you need some, etc...

[Akim]

How would you balance it? Well, whatever points you put in taming is points you could be putting into a totally different skill.

That's retarded. Lets say you can have 7 skills max, how many of those would be of use in a one on one fight? Probably not all of them, or if they are some would be things that just add on to other skills like Anatomy in UO, raises damage and healing somewhat. But it's nowhere near the gain of getting broadsided by a bear while trying to fend off the player.

[Brett]

I think taming would be good if they're not just another thing to have attacking people. And also no taming uberbeasts.
For instance tame a wolf and if your skill is high enough you could have it sniff around and smell if there are any orcs nearby, or maybe even if a certain person is nearby.
Obviously taming wild mounts would be useful.

and on one hand it makes sense if you have a loyal wolf following you around, if someone attacks you it will probably join in on the action. As long as it's not too powerful.

Also if part of taming, or a completely different skill, where you could get help from animals for a short amount of time, that aren't normally tameable. Perhaps a bear is untameable but you could stop it from attacking you and allies for a short duration, or getting a squirrel to look around for some food in the wilderness if you need some, etc...

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/member.php?u=677

Is that not you? Member number 677?

Either way, you're just repeating what everyone else has said, taming would be cool if its not overpowered.Which is stupid, because no one said was gonna be overpowered, you guys are all just assuming it will be.

[Khahan]

Here are my observations on Taming. :)

A ton of people really like it.

also

A ton of people really suck at pvp.

Ding Ding Ding!

[Hadrian99]

I wouldnt want to tame anything or have a pet, but i dont see a problem with having it, under certain conditions. Taming should be in if it takes as many days / monthes to tame that animal in real life. Say, you travel to the Nile River to tame a murderous Croc. How long would it take to tame it in real life? I mean, once you get past the point of it wanting to literally bite your head off then death roll your ass into Hell. And how long would it take to be able to give it commands like, "go eat that other person for me". I use Croc. as an example cause i guess its as close to a dragon you can get.

Point is, its totally unrealistic for some doosh bag to tame a dragon with a lizard brain in a day. But sure, if by some minute and dismal chance you actually manage to get a Croc. to eat out of your hand and do your bidding without ripping your balls off at any given moment, then sure, tamings in.

~Hadrian

[Porthios]

And then we're back to the grind for the shiniest uber weapon effect...

People will take the time to do something if it gives them obscene amounts of power in an MMO. I think we've been over that before ;P

Edit: and yes, I agree with balancing so that not everyone is forced to get a skill. That's the whole point to balancing. o.O

I've already explained the idea behind how this could work.


The idea behind taming would be to make the cost of taming upper tier mobs greater than the benefits. Therefore, this activity would only hold interest for people that really don't have any other, more efficient, way to "gain in power" because they've already got everything; they belong to a powerful clan; they own a castle; their coffers are overflowing with gold, reagents, armor, weapons, and any other supplies that they might need in 10 years; they've got the uber quest weapons that they want; they've built a rune library in their home, they've got their personal navy fleet, etc... Well, at this point, why the fuck not tame dragons. Sure, for the average player it would be more efficient to build up their armor cache, but for this dude, the most efficient way to gain in power turns out to be not very efficient -but the coolness factor makes up for it.


If you make taming upper tier mobs UBER hard (I'm talking, real uber here) then you really aren't going to see many people doing it unless they simply want a challenge. I think this would be great and add a lot to the game.

It's sort of like wandering around UO and seeing that one fellow wearing full demon bone armor. Is it really worth all of the trouble to get the demon bone armor? Hell, no! I could have amounted 200 sets of GM plate armor more easily, and they would be a lot more useful too. But the point is that seeing that one single dude in demon bone armor would be badass. I'd probably follow him around for 5 minutes just to admire his red hot bony ass. And if he could kick me ass because he was wearing his demon bone armor, then more power to him. But it's really going to suck ass when 5 people ambush him and rain on his parade.

This is the sort of shit that makes an MMO come alive. I cannot emphasize its importance enough.

[Echo Del' Torre]

If you make taming upper tier mobs UBER hard (I'm talking, real uber here) then you really aren't going to see many people doing it unless they simply want a challenge. I think this would be great and add a lot to the game. It's sort of like wandering around UO and seeing that one fellow wearing full demon bone armor. Is it really worth all of the trouble to get the demon bone armor? Hell, no! I could have amounted 200 sets of GM plate armor easier, and they would be a lot more useful too. But the point is that seeing that one single dude in demon bone armor would be badass. I'd probably follow him around for 5 minutes just to admire his red hot bony ass. And if he could kick me ass because he was wearing his demon bone armor, then more power to him. But it's really going to suck ass when 5 people ambush him and rain on his parade.

This is the sort of shit that makes an MMO come alive. I cannot emphasize its importance enough.


How can anyone disagree with this?

[Brett]

How can anyone disagree with this?

lol it wasn't exactly the best arguement. however, you are all retarded. if theres gonna be some super powerful pet to tame, you can bet your ass theres gonna be some super powerful sword to obtain, or some super powerful reagent to cast some super powerful spell

its called balance, someone developing a MMO probably understands it.

[Echo Del' Torre]

lol it wasn't exactly the best arguement. however, you are all retarded. if theres gonna be some super powerful pet to tame, you can bet your ass theres gonna be some super powerful sword to obtain, or some super powerful reagent to cast some super powerful spell

its called balance, someone developing a MMO probably understands it.

Yeah, look at all the MMO's out there right now...

Srsly, GG nub.

*edit* Also, I wasn't quoting it as the best argument for taming, just the overall message. Adding more to a MMO that adds more life to it is a great thing. Planetside is pretty balanced to me, but it doesn't bring enough.

[Brett]

Yeah, look at all the MMO's out there right now...

Srsly, GG nub.

*edit* Also, I wasn't quoting it as the best argument for taming, just the overall message. Adding more to a MMO that adds more life to it is a great thing. Planetside is pretty balanced to me, but it doesn't bring enough.

Yeah, look at all the MMOs out there right now, the ones with millions of customers.

God those devs dont know shit.

[Echo Del' Torre]

Yeah, look at all the MMOs out there right now, the ones with millions of customers.

God those devs dont know shit.

Then why are you here and not on WoW eh?

*edit* I thought most of us were here because we want a better game, not the same old shit that is out there right now. But maybe not, pfft.

[Brett]

I don't play computer games, I just surf these forums while at work.

*edit*

Having the taming skill doesnt qualify this game as being "The same old shit".

[Echo Del' Torre]

You have just joined the ranks of Booze Zombie, along with Septus, Samurai, Sifer2 and Brett!

Fix't.

[Brett]

Fix't.

=you ran out of counter points?

i think so!

[Echo Del' Torre]

=you ran out of counter points?

i think so!

I never run out of counter points. Just your points point towards pointless points that I have no point of bringing up to point out how wrong and retarded you are. Get the point?

[Brett]

I never run out of counter points. Just your points point towards pointless points that I have no point of bringing up to point out how wrong and retarded you are. Get the point?

Heh, I just realized that you are now copying Malkier.

Fixed.


Sad story, really. I wonder if Malkier would be proud?


At any rate, you've yet to debunk a single one of my points for taming.

[Echo Del' Torre]

At any rate, you've yet to debunk a single one of my points for taming.

GTFO. WTF, your points for taming? Have you even been following our conversation? Here:

How can anyone disagree with this?

lol it wasn't exactly the best arguement. however, you are all retarded. if theres gonna be some super powerful pet to tame, you can bet your ass theres gonna be some super powerful sword to obtain, or some super powerful reagent to cast some super powerful spell

its called balance, someone developing a MMO probably understands it.

Yeah, look at all the MMO's out there right now...

Srsly, GG nub.

*edit* Also, I wasn't quoting it as the best argument for taming, just the overall message. Adding more to a MMO that adds more life to it is a great thing. Planetside is pretty balanced to me, but it doesn't bring enough.

Yeah, look at all the MMOs out there right now, the ones with millions of customers.

God those devs dont know shit.

Then why are you here and not on WoW eh?

*edit* I thought most of us were here because we want a better game, not the same old shit that is out there right now. But maybe not, pfft.

I don't play computer games, I just surf these forums while at work.

*edit*

Having the taming skill doesnt qualify this game as being "The same old shit".

[Brett]

GTFO. WTF, your points for taming? Have you even been following our conversation? Here:

Have you looked at anything besides this page?

[Echo Del' Torre]

Have you looked at anything besides this page?

"Our" conversation. It started on this page and it had nothing to do with debunking your points on taming. lol.

*edit* And for the sake of the thread, lets just end our conversation.

[FunWithDrugs]

I can take it or leave it.

Most I ever do with pets is dabble.

[Porthios]

I can take it or leave it.

Most I ever do with pets is dabble.
I love how people feel the need to damn a skill or feature to Hell simply because they do not use the skill themselves. Unfortunately, they fail to even begin to think about how the feature may affect their gameplay despite the fact that they aren't goin to use it.

[Xzi]

First off, you don't need to balance shit since everyone has equal opportunity to either gain taming skill so that they can tame their own pets, or the opportunity to buy pets from tamers. However, if you were going to balance taming, then you'd do it ala UO: walking around with animals as a pain in the ass, they weren't always obedient (depending on how well fed they were, how well you trained them, your taming skill, the length of time for which you've had them, etc...), and they slowed people down.

Walking around with an animal was like being handicapped because you always had to be conscious of your animal's whereabouts since EVERY SINGLE mob would attack it. It would get hung up on petty obstacles (due shitty pathfinding AI) and, with the exception of a few special mobs (nightmares and dragons [I can't remember if you could tame wisps]), tamed pets were pretty weak sauce unless you had tons of them (in which case I still feel sorry for you because it must have been hell getting them all to go anywhere).

From this perspective, summoning magic is more "overpowered" than taming, simply because the traveling and maintanence problems are not present. Do you suggest that the devs take out summoning spells as well? That would be a travesty. I'm pretty god damn sure that necromancers will be able to summon undead to fight along side them. And I'm pretty sure that we'll be able to hire mercs. So, if such is the case, why not taming? It's a fun extra added dynamic to add to DF's pile of gems.
Alright, sounds pretty good. Like I said, I have nothing against taming, and it would add a lot for those people who like to use pets, but even those who want taming in I don't think really want the game taking any more time to go to beta than its already going to take. Certainly would be good to have in put in one of the first couple patches, though.

[Apewall]

I love how people feel the need to damn a skill or feature to Hell simply because they do not use the skill themselves. Unfortunately, they fail to even begin to think about how the feature may affect their gameplay despite the fact that they aren't goin to use it.

Taming skill = Damned
Effect on my Gameplay = Bad
Reasoning = Taming has never been balanced in any past MMO
Conclusion = Taming probably creates more problems then its worth.

[Byggin]

Taming skill = Damned
Effect on my Gameplay = Bad
Reasoning = Taming has never been balanced in any past MMO
Conclusion = Taming probably creates more problems then its worth.

Agree

[FrostByte]

Taming skill = Damned
Effect on my Gameplay = Bad
Reasoning = Taming has never been balanced in any past MMO
Conclusion = Taming probably creates more problems then its worth.

Oh just stfu!

Gw isn´t precisely what we call mmo, but it had great pet system. Your point proven wrong.

And wiht all my respect my dearest polelicker, we don´t care how it affects your gameplay. We care about how it affects game. And no they aren´t the same thing, once you ralise it you can start saying something.

Ps. Your reasoning sucks, just that no one happened to invent dynamite in 1000 bc. doesn´t mean it can´t be done.

[Khahan]

Oh just stfu!

Gw isn´t precisely what we call mmo, but it had great pet system. Your point proven wrong.

And wiht all my respect my dearest polelicker, we don´t care how it affects your gameplay. We care about how it affects game. And no they aren´t the same thing, once you ralise it you can start saying something.

Ps. Your reasoning sucks, just that no one happened to invent dynamite in 1000 bc. doesn´t mean it can´t be done.

What's your epic reason for pets? Why do you want an MMO version of a digi-pet so badly?

Is it because you get attached to your little pixel companion? Thats pretty sad.

I think it's because tamer-types in general are 1% balls and 99% Dragon/Nightmare/Wyrm.

What were pets used for in past MMO's?

1. To farm gold and items.
2. To compensate for the amount of practice and dedication it takes to become good in PVP.

Taming will most likely be in Darkfall, but I still think you're a bottom feeder. I don't have a line between honorable and dishonorable combat. I feel that what works, works, as long as its actually YOU doing it.

But to be fair, lets say suddenly Khahan thinks Taming is AWESOME. Lets do it right this time. Here is how I would implement taming.

1. If your pet dies, it's dead. No bonding, no ressurecting, no praying at the altar of the Pet God, no summoning, nothing will bring it back. Dead, dead, dead, got it?

2. The more intelligent and powerful the creature, the more chance it will turn and melt the face of the tamer. Even if you're the most almighty badass tamer conceivable.

3. The more intelligent and powerful the creature, the more of the chance that it will completely ignore orders and do its own thing. It's still tamed, but it's stubborn.

4. The process of taming should be a long process. You shouldn't be able to just show up, play a lute and say "I've always wanted a pet like you..." "Good pet" "I want to cuddle you!" and suddenly it's like "Durrrhurr lets go live with this guy, and he can use me to his ends, and when he's done throw me in the stables. I love being an extension of his ineptitude!".

5. A large pet should require a LARGE amount of food and water. If you can't supply this, tough shit!

6. NO FUCKING BREEDING. I don't want to see the great great grandson of FaceMelter, who is 10 times more powerful.

7. The skills needed to be a good tamer should be many, and hard to gain. These guys let their pets do all the work as it is. I don't want to see a guy with a fire-breathing horse also be an archer/fire mage/swords/necromancer/smith/tailor/poisoner..

8. Training allowed, but within reason. Similar to the way a player would train and aquire skills. Reason being: You can't teach a dog to wield a sword.

9. Tamed creatures will not go against the core of their being to satisfy the whims of it's "master". IE a benevolent creature will not suddenly become a bloodthirsty butcher, and a malevolent creature will not stop it's desire to stomp and eat things even if they happen to be the town guards.

10. Pets should have to be moved like seige weapons. Just because you cast recall doesn't mean your pet magically goes with you.

Do this, and it will be in line. People walking around with tamed badasses should be something for people to stop and stare and say "OH MY GOD WE ARE FUCKED" not something you see everyone with a hardon for digi-pets having.

[Echo Del' Torre]

7. The skills needed to be a good tamer should be many, and hard to gain. These guys let their pets do all the work as it is. I don't want to see a guy with a fire-breathing horse also be an archer/fire mage/swords/necromancer/smith/tailor/poisoner..

Now I know what my build is going to be!

[fCo_Pancho]

Taming is one above learning to tie one's own shoes.

[Maximuz]

although I would not do it, I agree with the OP. Taming should be allowed in the game.
There are tons of people who want it.

[Xzi]

OK, I have an idea on how taming could be implemented in Darkfall well. Tell me what you think:

In keeping with the spirit of having no auto-attack and a game based on player skill, pets would have to be completely micro managed by players. You'd have to click to tell them where to move, hotkey or click to make them attack as well as use a skill, etc. Their attacks and skills would deal a certain percentage of what normal player attacks and skills would do. That percentage would increase based upon the level of the player's taming skill (exact numbers would be determined by devs through testing before implementation). Just seems to me like something like this might balance things out better instead of just gaining more damage without any extra effort on the player's part.

I posted this using my Wii so forgive me if it seems off at all.

[FrostByte]

A lot of bullshit and then some decent points

First question, what is my reason for pets? Diversity, fun, rp aspects, tactics they bring, work you have to do for them.... theres a few of them....

Secondly, didn´t i make my point clear in other posts? Here it is once again, even if other games have failed in pets does it mean df will? And this is not a fucking uo2, so fuck all "uuhhh, those nightmares and d-dr-dragons are so scary..." reasons.

What´s the big problem with pets? Devs have said that powerfull beasts are untamable due to their nature. Those that we can tame most likely are belove average npc what comes to combat provess. And as you might know, anyone can hire npc bodyguards and raise undead companions, wich all may be bit more powrfull than animals.

Strangely, everything you said after your petty insults (my e-peen didn´t even feel them btw.) and lame uo comparison, is just what i´d want pets to be.

Let us really feel that we have tamed beasts, not brainless kittycats.

Taming should take A LOT time, pets should die for good, pets should consume food, pets should be trainable and finally no damn dragons or superintelligent beasts should be tameable(instead make them rape and kill anyone who tries it, in that order).

[Porthios]

Effect on my Gameplay = Bad
Wrong.

Reasoning = Taming has never been balanced in any past MMO
Wrong.

Conclusion = Taming probably creates more problems then its worth.
Wrong.

[Porthios]

What's your epic reason for pets? Why do you want an MMO version of a digi-pet so badly?

Is it because you get attached to your little pixel companion? Thats pretty sad.

I think it's because tamer-types in general are 1% balls and 99% Dragon/Nightmare/Wyrm.

What were pets used for in past MMO's?

1. To farm gold and items.
2. To compensate for the amount of practice and dedication it takes to become good in PVP.

Taming will most likely be in Darkfall, but I still think you're a bottom feeder. I don't have a line between honorable and dishonorable combat. I feel that what works, works, as long as its actually YOU doing it.

But to be fair, lets say suddenly Khahan thinks Taming is AWESOME. Lets do it right this time. Here is how I would implement taming.

1. If your pet dies, it's dead. No bonding, no ressurecting, no praying at the altar of the Pet God, no summoning, nothing will bring it back. Dead, dead, dead, got it?

2. The more intelligent and powerful the creature, the more chance it will turn and melt the face of the tamer. Even if you're the most almighty badass tamer conceivable.

3. The more intelligent and powerful the creature, the more of the chance that it will completely ignore orders and do its own thing. It's still tamed, but it's stubborn.

4. The process of taming should be a long process. You shouldn't be able to just show up, play a lute and say "I've always wanted a pet like you..." "Good pet" "I want to cuddle you!" and suddenly it's like "Durrrhurr lets go live with this guy, and he can use me to his ends, and when he's done throw me in the stables. I love being an extension of his ineptitude!".

5. A large pet should require a LARGE amount of food and water. If you can't supply this, tough shit!

6. NO FUCKING BREEDING. I don't want to see the great great grandson of FaceMelter, who is 10 times more powerful.

7. The skills needed to be a good tamer should be many, and hard to gain. These guys let their pets do all the work as it is. I don't want to see a guy with a fire-breathing horse also be an archer/fire mage/swords/necromancer/smith/tailor/poisoner..

8. Training allowed, but within reason. Similar to the way a player would train and aquire skills. Reason being: You can't teach a dog to wield a sword.

9. Tamed creatures will not go against the core of their being to satisfy the whims of it's "master". IE a benevolent creature will not suddenly become a bloodthirsty butcher, and a malevolent creature will not stop it's desire to stomp and eat things even if they happen to be the town guards.

10. Pets should have to be moved like seige weapons. Just because you cast recall doesn't mean your pet magically goes with you.

Do this, and it will be in line. People walking around with tamed badasses should be something for people to stop and stare and say "OH MY GOD WE ARE FUCKED" not something you see everyone with a hardon for digi-pets having.

This is actually how I'd implement it, except I'd add one thing: highly intelligent mobs would not be tameable. You might be able to barter/hire/become friends with them but you'll never be able to tame them.

Good job!

[TerainaWindrage]

I want Taming to be in, but not a major thing. Here are my ways of balacning it.

1) Pet is 'trainable' but not controllable. They will do whatever they want, but you can reward/punish them somewhat so they learn what to do.
2) Like any other NPC you can hire/summon, they need upkeep. Mainly food and attention. You cant just throw it a piece of meat every once and a while and expect it to behave. If you dont take care of it, it might go after your balls instead of the enemies.
3) Dont make them stronger once they become your pet. I HATE that in WoW. 'Yes, I tamed this pet, and now it is as strong as me when it used to be able to be killed in one blow lolz'.
4) I agree with the people who said you could be able to gain some aspects of the creature. However, you cannot stack these. Lets say you get a wolf and it dies, you cant suddenly train a cat and gain somewhat better stealth from it and get wolfy sense too.
5) Permenant death for pets. Makes sence for Mounts, so why not pets?

Those are all the ones I can think of right now.

[BLACKWATCH]

SO EVERY ONE IS WORRIED ABOUT TAMED PETS!? Bah~~~

Why worrie about one critter, that would ned to be directly commanded, its not AUTO KILL, set and forget...

If ya need to worry , Ponder the Necro/Conjurers, with there small armys, and a summoned pet, then add on the 5 to 15 Hired Thugs all set on AUTO/Defend/Attack/Guard...

Now think of a gang of Necro/Conjurers, say 5 of them...
5x small Armys of undead, and say 25 hired thugs(or 75 plus)..
Thats something to ponder..

Now a player withe a single pet, is just a nother weapon skill... no biggy.
As a tamed pet is NOT auto set, but needs to have a target manualy picked,
and a chain of commands sent, as your trying to fight and dodge yourself.

No I also belive that the nastyest mobs in the game SHOULD be tameable,
but only by Ritual Magic from both tamers and other magical users, in Clan
vs Clan warfare... IE: you spend 200,000 k worth of rairs, spend 15 min casting spells with 10 players in sink, an get a spaun for a few min in a
targeted city, set to attack anything, guard its area, or defend a city...

Bingo, its a fun, usefull tool. shure many wi die fighting it, but thats the point of EXPENCIVE and top line skill sets... Unique and rair but powerfull spels, and taming...

Shure there would be counters, but still Taming should be in , in the FUTURE
Adventure game World o Darkfall..

[Shadow Walker2020]

imo tamers were retarded. Even after they implemented the 5% chance of it turning on you, or whatever it was...

It was just some guy walking around with 95% god mode, and 5% oops time to ress and recall to hythloth for another dragon pet. Wow, that's awesome...

I would much rather see mounts give added bonuses with certain skills so an elf can attack using his leopard thing (or whatever that is :P)...

I wouldn't mind any player having control over an NPC as long as that NPC isn't some ungodly thing that can ransack a village on its own. It just makes it ridiculously stupid. Trying to balance it with cost or *chance of failure* just doesn't work...

Honestly, how do you stop a dragon and a mage bombarding you at once? Answer: you don't :/

The devs said a long time ago that a dragon would never be able to be tamed by a player. That the dragon would more likely try to tame the player first.

Taming in Darkfall could be great. but, they are going to have to limit it to reasonable creatures like horses, wolves, and maybe crogs to a greater extent. But they wont let players tame over powered monsters like dragons, who, if I remember correctly, have their own built in gloomer so they can attack buildings.

[Apewall]

Simply put: Taming/Animal Control makes little to no sense for Darkfall, seeing how we should all be able to agree, being able to tell your pet to "attack" and it just start autohitting would be lame.

How then would we implement a system of animal control that was not automatic, its almost unfeasible to have a player control his character and animal's actions at the same time. Would we have to form some sort of item such as a musical instrument in which you must play out notes to which the animal responds to with actions/attacks? As Khahan said though, they would also need to control the movement of their animal, all aspects of "automatic" would have to be removed, which is always what taming relies on, and partly why it is never balanced.

And ofcourse I'm right Porthios, look at this discussion, for a game such as Darkfall where automatics are the anti-christ, animal control seems to be too much trouble.

[Xzi]

Nobody even commented on my idea. I'm sad now. :(

[Porthios]

No I also belive that the nastyest mobs in the game SHOULD be tameable,
but only by Ritual Magic from both tamers and other magical users, in Clan
vs Clan warfare... IE: you spend 200,000 k worth of rairs, spend 15 min casting spells with 10 players in sink, an get a spaun for a few min in a
targeted city, set to attack anything, guard its area, or defend a city...

Bingo, its a fun, usefull tool. shure many wi die fighting it, but thats the point of EXPENCIVE and top line skill sets... Unique and rair but powerfull spels, and taming...

Shure there would be counters, but still Taming should be in , in the FUTURE
Adventure game World o Darkfall..

I very much like this idea. It adds a great game dynamic.

[Porthios]

Simply put: Taming/Animal Control makes little to no sense for Darkfall, seeing how we should all be able to agree, being able to tell your pet to "attack" and it just start autohitting would be lame. Why would it be lame? Ever heard of police dogs? Of course you have. Every jackass knows that you can simply tell a polic dog to attack someone and it will (automatically, in case you were wondering). So why would it be so unfeasable that someone with 100 Taming and 100 Animal Training would be able to do that same thing with creatures similar in intelligence to dogs.

How then would we implement a system of animal control that was not automatic, its almost unfeasible to have a player control his character and animal's actions at the same time. Would we have to form some sort of item such as a musical instrument in which you must play out notes to which the animal responds to with actions/attacks?
How about this: you attach the scent of something to your foe which will temporarily make your animal attack him until the scent wears off (you can choose the time limit).

And ofcourse I'm right Porthios, look at this discussion, for a game such as Darkfall where automatics are the anti-christ, animal control seems to be too much trouble.
Well I suggest you start campaigning against necromancy and summoning spells because that's EXACTLY what they are going to result in.

[uniqueuser]

Nobody even commented on my idea. I'm sad now. :(
It sucked. That assuage your unhappiness any?

[Apewall]

Ignore the doublepost, connection drop during posting:(

READ BELOW!:D

[Apewall]

Why would it be lame? Ever heard of police dogs? Of course you have. Every jackass knows that you can simply tell a polic dog to attack someone and it will (automatically, incase you were wondering). So why would it be so unfeasable that someone with 100 Taming and 100 Animal Training would be able to do that same thing with creatures similar in intelligence to dogs.


How about this: you attack the scent of something to your foe which will temporarily make your animal attack him until the scent wears off (you can choose the time limit).


Well I suggest you start campaigning against necromancy and summoning spells because that's EXACTLY what they will are going to result in.

I've always found "pets" of any kind fairly underpowered, or very overpowered. The complete control of npcs in an automated fashion.

Ofcourse in real life it is simple as "attack", but also, in real life the dog is a conscious being, capable of making decisions, not simply fighting until your enemy kills it.

I am not against taming, but i think the necessary steps to make it viable and not create balance issues probably will make it a much less used skill. If creatures cannot be summoned at will, dismissed at will, resurrected, and tend to run from an opponent who is killing them - perhaps viable but still not "good". The main game mechanic problems arise when you introduce "tough" animals, which for some reason end up in every MMO, horridly imbalanced and well capable of killing other players easily without the aid of its master.

Khahan's points were for the most part right on, but "pets" in general are a "lame" system, as it turns our nice hit detection action-esk MMO into another automaton, allowing a tamer/petmaster to sit 100ft away afk, his pets killing everything for him. To make taming worth it- With MOST of a players skills needed to be at a real level of taming- Pets need to be powerful for this, which leads to pets being overpowered and taming/pet control being a complete automatic role. The alternative being few skills in it with little to no benefit of taming.

I wanted to point out, necromancy classes in most games rely mostly on undead damage spells, lifesucking spells and curses. They do always have pets but they are never overpowered, always meant to be an aid and not their main weapon/defense.

IMO:
Skeletions: weak but many
Zombies: stronger but few
Ressurected NPC: Only one, but strength/skills based off npc it originated from, lasts a very short duration.

[Xzi]

It sucked. That assuage your unhappiness any?
Yes. At least a got a comment now. :D

[PrideFC]

I want Taming to be in, but not a major thing. Here are my ways of balacning it.

1) Pet is 'trainable' but not controllable. They will do whatever they want, but you can reward/punish them somewhat so they learn what to do.
2) Like any other NPC you can hire/summon, they need upkeep. Mainly food and attention. You cant just throw it a piece of meat every once and a while and expect it to behave. If you dont take care of it, it might go after your balls instead of the enemies.
3) Dont make them stronger once they become your pet. I HATE that in WoW. 'Yes, I tamed this pet, and now it is as strong as me when it used to be able to be killed in one blow lolz'.
4) I agree with the people who said you could be able to gain some aspects of the creature. However, you cannot stack these. Lets say you get a wolf and it dies, you cant suddenly train a cat and gain somewhat better stealth from it and get wolfy sense too.
5) Permenant death for pets. Makes sence for Mounts, so why not pets?

Those are all the ones I can think of right now.

Yes, i have to agree. With taming described like this, it would not be a problem. Pet's should not be too strong either, maybe like wolves, dogs, cats and possibly a bear should be the strongest pet, but all should permanently dead when killed.

EDIT: i think it would be cool also if pet's could grant a bonus for some skills, for example a dog could increases its owners tracking skill for example.

[Gottaa]

As no-one I believe knows how necromancy will work it's hard to compare taming (also no idea how it would work) to necromancy in a game no-one here has played. But my understand was if spells are targeted in an FPS fashion the necromancer would be doing the same summoning, targetting a person and keeping them targetted rather than

1) Select person
2) Cast a summon spell
3) Tell it to attack
4) Twiddle thumbs

at least I really hope necromancy is more involved than in other MMO's and casting in general is more skilled.

As far as taming goes I'd like to see it in the future but don't think it's needed on release and really hope it's isn't some fire and forget system which seems the opposite of all other methods of attack in DF

[Titus Ultor]

Necromancy and summoning are different than taming animals or other creatures for a relatively simple reason: the objects being controlled. A zombie or a fire elemental (for example) are both creations of the mage's will, limited in both length of existence and effect. They are completely subject to their master's will, provided the created being isn't much more powerful than the mage. A pet or any tamed animal, on the other hand, existed before contacting the mage and has the characteristics of an animal - overriding instincts, need for food and water, a full lifespan, aversion to pain and suffering, etc.

Ultimately much, much harder to manage realistically, much less implement. As Apewall has said, taming will either be pathetically underpowered or overwhelmingly overpowered -- there's not much room for middle ground with such vastly different approaches.

[Sifer2]

Hmm its interesting how this has involved into an arguement over whether automated NPC's is out of place a skill driven MMO combat system. But really it seems as though alot of elements of the game already are not skill driven. Such as guard NPC's an maybe traps you can set. An probably spells cast on yourself. Dont see any of those requiring much twitch skill. Only player movement Attacks an Defense moves are based on twitch.

So its probably really not that much of a stretch. Besides if you dont have direct control of your pet that's also a weakness. Probably easy to dodge an defend against an AI that's predictable. Unless the tamer can signal commands for pet special attacks an such which they probably can if its implemented. Would add some skill into it even if it is still Pokemon. I just hope pets are leaning towards underpowered in the game personally. Better underpowered an just there for the pet lovers to be able to play around with them than overpowered an turning this games PvP into Pokemon.

[Cydros]

One of a couple of problems I see with taming is that it costs nothing to get something. With NPC guards, you have to pay out money constantly. With Mounts you have to pay to get it and then keep them fed and stabled(possibly). Now with summoned creatures you have to pay in regs. I think that there needs to be more to that. I think that you should be taking a risk summoning creatures. The risk that they will start attacking you and your allies if you dont have the will to control it.

If they made taming very challenging for people to get the pets then i'm all for it but they'd have to make it real challenging so we dont have everyone walking around with free pets. Possibly make there be more than just one skill to be able to have tamed pets to keep it to a minimum.

[Booze Zombie]

Sure it costs something. You risk dying to a pack of wolfs if you are not skilled enough to control them. If you can't control you animals, they'll either kill you or run away.

Also, I don't think the undead are "temporary". This isn't Guild Wars.

Minions are viable options for some people and it takes skills to manage them, anyone who's had to manage a party knows this.

[Cydros]

Sure it costs something. You risk dying to a pack of wolfs if you are not skilled enough to control them. If you can't control you animals, they'll either kill you or run away.

Also, I don't think the undead are "temporary". This isn't Guild Wars.

Minions are viable options for some people and it takes skills to manage them, anyone who's had to manage a party knows this.

As i've said.. as long as they make it challenging to get the animal, i'm fine with taming. Not some , as someone has mentioned, few words and the animal magically loves you kind crap. You should have to fight it first to get its life to a certain point to make it submissive before you can even have a chance of taming it.

[Septus]

wtf no. That's all I can say. Making a skill "harder" to get or an animal "harder" to get isn't a balance. No one cares about the amount of effort it takes to *get* something. If it is the #1 thing to get, they will GET IT. (read: shiny magic items that people farm for hours for, or clan raids to get drops off of bosses)

You can't balance it that way, it's just stupid. You need to ensure that using a pet in combat won't be any more viable than other methods. As far as passive skills go, whatever you want to put in probably won't affect balance. For example, using a wolf pet in place of a tracking skill, a bird lets you use its eyes so instead of being fast as hell you can just vicariously see through a flying bird far ahead, etc etc) That alone would make taming viable b/c depending on the pet you have at the moment, it's like having different skills.

But auto-attack, imo, is out of the question. If a mage can be interrupted, the pet would unfairly interrupt constantly (while you can cast slow high damage spells with fire magic instead of worrying about interrupting what your opponent is doing, for example). If you're against a melee, he would have to manually block the pet and your attacks simultaneously (read: impossible). This would lead to taming being a pre-requisite, which is a game breaker.

I wouldn't mind taming if your pet had the same cool downs that we PLAYERS had. so after your pet attacks, he has to wait to use another attack like we do. Or give your pet a stamina bar (or mana bar depending on the pet? ;P) So you don't just have limitless attacks. In fact, I'm liking the stamina/mana bar for your pet idea, it's a simple balance I think.

[Cydros]

I wouldn't mind taming if your pet had the same cool downs that we PLAYERS had. so after your pet attacks, he has to wait to use another attack like we do. Or give your pet a stamina bar (or mana bar depending on the pet? ;P) So you don't just have limitless attacks. In fact, I'm liking the stamina/mana bar for your pet idea, it's a simple balance I think.

I was under the impression that NPC are like us and use up stamina and mana.

[Ices]

Honestly, how do you stop a dragon and a mage bombarding you at once? Answer: you don't :/

If you're referring to UO, then you're dumb. Paralyze the dragon and dump the mage. Dead tlamer. Post AoS, cast protect, and just dump and heal as necessary.

[Cydros]

If you're referring to UO, then you're dumb. Paralyze the dragon and dump the mage. Dead tlamer. Post AoS, cast protect, and just dump and heal as necessary.

One problem, devs arent big on stuns so unless you can drop the mage in 3 seconds you'll be still in the same mess. Given how strong dragons are suppose to be, you may have a problem stunning them in the frist place.

[Septus]

If you're referring to UO, then you're dumb. Paralyze the dragon and dump the mage. Dead tlamer. Post AoS, cast protect, and just dump and heal as necessary.

rofl, except dragons also cast fireballs even under para that did insane damage? Plus you're assuming that a simple mana dump will kill the tamer... Yeah if he's a moron. Take your pretend PvP elsewhere.

[PrimalSign]

wtf no. That's all I can say. Making a skill "harder" to get or an animal "harder" to get isn't a balance. No one cares about the amount of effort it takes to *get* something. If it is the #1 thing to get, they will GET IT. (read: shiny magic items that people farm for hours for, or clan raids to get drops off of bosses)

Stop using crappy MMOs to base your opinions on :bang:
Difficulty and expense IS a form of balance

There's a huge difference between DF and previous MMO's, primarily that you can steal, kill, and ultimately ruin your enemies. No intelligent player is going to frivolously spend hours of their time catching the creature and waste valuable resources in mantaining it, when that effort could easily be taken away in less than a minute. If it's too difficult to obtain, players will only be using 'dragon' pets in the most controlled of circumstances in order to avoid straggering loses.

If they ARE being used by everyone, then obviously it wasn't made difficult enough to obtain. This should make sense to you.

[Cidius]

They've said to "maybe" implement it later with the patches.

[Cydros]

They've said to "maybe" implement it later with the patches.

I hope they don't but if they do I hope they put ALOT of thought into how its going to affect the gameplay and an appropriate way of doing it.

[Septus]

Stop using crappy MMOs to base your opinions on :bang:
Difficulty and expense IS a form of balance

There's a huge difference between DF and previous MMO's, primarily that you can steal, kill, and ultimately ruin your enemies. No intelligent player is going to frivolously spend hours of their time catching the creature and waste valuable resources in mantaining it, when that effort could easily be taken away in less than a minute. If it's too difficult to obtain, players will only be using 'dragon' pets in the most controlled of circumstances in order to avoid straggering loses.

If they ARE being used by everyone, then obviously it wasn't made difficult enough to obtain. This should make sense to you.

I'm sorry, but that's exactly how UO worked - dragons were hard to tame, had a small chance to turn on you, you had to feed them a LOT, and your enemies could kill them and you... Didn't stop nightmares & dragons from raping any less (until they just nerfed it to shit, at which point it just became "rare" because it was utterly useless)

If you try to make something expensive/rare... I'll just take the time to do it, and then roll with my buddies... Good luck taking on a group of 3 competent PvP'ers and our nightmare/dragon, haha.

Balance is about making different strategies viable, not forcing every group engaging in PvP to have some monstrous pet with them. As for counter-measures, UO had that too. I *could* cast Energy Vortex (a dangerous summon) but it took a while to cast, in which time I could be interrupted/dead - plus there was a little spell called dispel that pretty much rendered it useless :/

Anyway... I was using magic items as an example. I used katanas of vanquishing for townfighting even though I risked "losing it." Why? Because of the long run genius - most of the time I'd accumulate over 1 million gold worth of equipment using that item that only cost me 200k or so, and still not lose the item. Substitute that idea with a pet and you'll begin to understand.

[Porthios]

I'm sorry, but that's exactly how UO worked - dragons were hard to tame, had a small chance to turn on you, you had to feed them a LOT, and your enemies could kill them and you... Didn't stop nightmares & dragons from raping any less (until they just nerfed it to shit, at which point it just became "rare" because it was utterly useless)

If you try to make something expensive/rare... I'll just take the time to do it, and then roll with my buddies... Good luck taking on a group of 3 competent PvP'ers and our nightmare/dragon, haha.

Jesus Christ. Why do you have to be such a pussy? Did I ever have a problem with Dragons? Fuck no. They were rare enough so that I'd only see one every few days. Did that put a cramp in my playstyle? No. Instead, it gave me more variety. I guess i'm not complaining simply because I'm not a pussy. But if you've got a giant VAGINA then I can see where you're coming from.

[Septus]

Jesus Christ. Why do you have to be such a pussy? Did I ever have a problem with Dragons? Fuck no. They were rare enough so that I'd only see one every few days. Did that put a cramp in my playstyle? No. Instead, it gave me more variety. I guess i'm not complaining simply because I'm not a pussy. But if you've got a giant VAGINA then I can see where you're coming from.

I'm not saying you'll see one every day, there will be enough people occupying their time with other skills & tasks (hopefully) - I'm saying giving some one that kind of power is stupid from a balance point of view....

And btw, if there will be city wars, you can be *damn* sure that a clan will get dragons if they'll turn the tide of a war...

My argument was to show that if something helps a player, time is of no consequence. They will grind for days & months to get level 70, they will grind for hours more to get a fancy weapon... What would stop them from grinding to get dragons to fight off an entire enemy army with 10 tamers and change?

[Porthios]

My argument was to show that if something helps a player, time is of no consequence. They will grind for days & months to get level 70, they will grind for hours more to get a fancy weapon... What would stop them from grinding to get dragons to fight off an entire enemy army with 10 tamers and change?
Here's where people arrive at a misconception. They believe that, no matter what, players will endure the grind to get that "uber" weapon or level. Well, in game like WoW, many players will (because there is NOTHING else to do). Not only that, but once you get your uber weapon/level, you can NEVER lose it; it is yours forever, risk free.

But in games like DF there are two key differences: 1) there are MANY other ways to attack someone and 2) you actually can lose your uber gear once you've acquired it.

[Septus]

Hence my example of vanq swords... Vanq katanas in specific were pretty damn rare (about as rare as a dragon) but I used one for townfighting.

Generally by the time some one manages to take you down (if you're careless), you've accumulated more wealth using the weapon than you used getting it.

[Porthios]

Hence my example of vanq swords... Vanq katanas in specific were pretty damn rare (about as rare as a dragon) but I used one for townfighting.

Generally by the time some one manages to take you down (if you're careless), you've accumulated more wealth using the weapon than you used getting it.

Sure, you used one for town fighting. But if you lost it, how hard were you going to work to get a new one. Judging the fact that vanq weaponons used in PvP were far more rare than GM weapons. That alone is a testament to the fact that people really didn't go that far out of their way to get their uber vanq weapons. If you could recall to a vendor and just nab another one really quick if you had the cash, then you might do that everytime you lose one (you might also go broke in the process, but that's your choice); but if you had to sit in a dungeon and camp the shit out of monsters all day to get one drop, most people would have rather just bought a player made weapon.

Now, with the advent of item insurance, a hell of a lot more people started hunting for uber gear. Fortunately, DF will not release with item insurance so this won't be a problem.

[Samurai]

....

So lets get this right. You dont mind that as person that has a pet has an advantage over than an idential person without a pet as long as it is a long hard process to get and keep one. So in a 1v1 the person with a pet would win. Ok I can see where you are coming from.

Would it then be ok for the same person to have an advantage over his equal if he had gear twice as powerful if it was long and hard to get?

So in other words you want to reward players for grinding. If we continue along these lines you now want a game where grinding gear and pets are what wins PvP rarther than player skill. Doesnt this go against what the devs want for this game:
Player skill based RPG
No grinding required
No epics

When it comes to PvP between top clans they will try to find any posible advantage they can over their enemy. If pets or anythign else give them this advantage I would bet my life on them grinding out anything to get this even if it was just for the 1 fight.


Hell I saw it all the time in gulidwars. People would grind their way thought PvE (30+ hours) to get an item that you going not create when making a PvP char just to have 5 extra energy. Why? So they could be that little bit more effective than the next person without 1.

[Echo Del' Torre]

Doesnt this go against what the devs want for this game:
Player skill based RPG
No grinding required
No epics

Umm....

Player skill based FPS
Grinding is always required. You won't have skills unless you grind.
No epic/uber items, true.

As for everything else, meh. Taming should have skills you have to slot up to even have those pets and use them in combat, therefor the other player without a pet would have more skills in other combat abilites, perhaps magic. With this he might could fireblast the pet to hell, or knocking it back, while going for the other player.

Why is everyone so afraid/scared of taming's implementation? These other MMO's have really messed you all up imo.

[Porthios]

So lets get this right. You dont mind that as person that has a pet has an advantage over than an idential person without a pet as long as it is a long hard process to get and keep one. So in a 1v1 the person with a pet would win. Ok I can see where you are coming from.

Would it then be ok for the same person to have an advantage over his equal if he had gear twice as powerful if it was long and hard to get?

So in other words you want to reward players for grinding. If we continue along these lines you now want a game where grinding gear and pets are what wins PvP rarther than player skill. Doesnt this go against what the devs want for this game:
Pla