Crafters and Clans...

[Barbarossa]

All clans, I would assume, will want crafters in the guild or at least have crafters associated with the clan, regardless of their alliances or affiliations.

Assume Darkfall will be a one character slot game.

Would you encourage crafters within your clan, knowing full well this limits a clan member from being 'in the shit' [combat] or would seek outside crafters, such as a crafting clan?

My take is, crafters are going to be the most sought after players in the game. They'll also be among the richest. I can see crafting clans being created, with that sole purpose in mind, becoming a big part of the game. I saw it large scale in SWG. The scale it could amass in Darkfall could be literally amazing.

Any game I get in I usually craft, as a service to my crew and to make a little spare change or as a bartering tool. I don't think I'm going to get that luxury in DF. I'll be too busy piratin' to bother this time around.

Anyone else got a take on this?

[Angelmar]

running with your assumption that this will be a one character per server limit I think the creation of crafter guilds will turn on three things:

1) How significant gear differences make in pvp.
2) The ease of the leveling curve (or rather skilling curve).
3) The ease of dual-boxing. (tied to #2)

If gear differences are significant that crafter characters will become indispensable to pvp guilds. Crafter characters then will show up as the single character on accts.

If the skilling curve is relatively reasonable (e.g. in order to be a master smith doesn't require a full year of active play) then crafters characters may start showing up on second accts. "Hardcore" raiders in WoW sometimes have gathering alts to keep their main supplied.

If dual-loging or dual boxing is easy then it is even more likely that major guilds will have a guild acct or that some of there members will have a second acct where they work on crafting while they are out killing on their main.

If having a character on a 2nd acct isn't viable then crafter guilds will likely form to fill the role.

[Daarco]

I think crafters will be very much needed in every clan.
And the skill system will make you capable of beeing both.

As same time you are a good fighter you can be a good house builder or anything. And in DF i think even i will have some crafting skill, that have never happend in a MMO before.

I will puch for the same thing as in the romans legions, all know some basic crafting.
Then get help from crafting clans with the big items.

In DF the items will really make a diffrence, i dont mean über gear...but that you have gear to arm a clan in a war.
Full loot is a tactic to win war with.

[Angelmar]

I think Barbarossa's post was whether or not crafter guilds are viable/likely to show up. Not whether every guild will have a crafter.

Assuming the description of the Softcap is accurate of the dev's intentions any crafting points on a combat character will likely be a waste. Character building in pvp is about min-maxing, utility is nice but the focused build will likely tear you apart.

Thats why I think 2nd accts will be the solution if skilling an alt and dual boxing is reasonable. If not theres going to be crafter clans.

Full loot is a tactic to win war with.
Made me wonder if crafter clans might become gear farms for pvp groups... lol.

[Kverik]

Personally I dont think that their will actually be crafter guilds considering that if some one really wants somthing they would just kill the crafter right b4 the trade. For instance say I make a weapon thats really good a very good alligned player could kill me without to much affect on the allignment, while a pirate who didnt care about the allignment could kill without care so i think "Mains" will either pick up crafting or the crafters will join in the bigger alliences could have a few great crafters and if some 1 trys to rip them off by killing them well guess what you just got yourself on a big KOS but crafters alone would most likley have to hire bounty hunters ect or have really loyal/nice customers.

[Daarco]

I think crafting clans will be very nice, then I dont have to craft:D

If you can have maybe 10% of all skills, thats 100 skills.
Then you can do whatever you want. 25 combat skills, 25 spells, 25 crafting skills and 25 "exploration skills.

But then again, I will only do what i think is fun. Thats the best with DF, you dont have to run around and kill lvl 1 wolves to gain xp.

But crafters will still be important in all clans, but only the players that think its fun need to do it...

[Merrin]

Crafting clans will go the same route as mercenary wanabees in Darkfall...down and out. If crafters do not have the requisite PvP skills to protect themselves in the field, kill mobs and other players who have resources on them, and to fight for resource mines, their clan will not progress. To think that clans could dedicate themselves to crafting assumes they could do so without a formidable PvP complement in the field, whereas having that PvP complement simply makes them the same as any other run-of-the-mill Darkfall clan.

Clans will need easy and quick access to replenishments on a 24-hour basis. Depending on other clans to provide these resources to you from afar, on MARKED UP prices, does not make good sense.

[Galvez]

Crafting clans will go the same route as mercenary wanabees in Darkfall...down and out. If crafters do not have the requisite PvP skills to protect themselves in the field, kill mobs and other players who have resources on them, and to fight for resource mines, their clan will not progress. To think that clans could dedicate themselves to crafting assumes they could do so without a formidable PvP complement in the field, whereas having that PvP complement simply makes them the same as any other run-of-the-mill Darkfall clan.

Clans will need easy and quick access to replenishments on a 24-hour basis. Depending on other clans to provide these resources to you from afar, on MARKED UP prices, does not make good sense.

Agreed. Without the above stated requisite PvP skills, crafting-centric clans will probably be forced to either forge alliances with PvP-centric guilds for protection, or go teets-up due to stagnation. It is my estimation that the situation will be reversed, in that, PvP centric clans will more than likely seek out small crafting enclaves to enlist/bribe/threaten/cajole them into joining forces in an effort to cover this aspect of their clan's needs.

[Red Morgan]

I think people are underestimating the importance of crafting. I doubt few clans will be able to thrive without them. I want to get as many as possible, but they're hard to find.

Most people seem to be ignoring crafting in this game, but that might just be because this game attracts all the hardcore pvpers. Probably after release you'll start seeing more crafting folks getting drawn in.

[Avarice E]

The Duchy has a few full time crafters willing to sell our expertise to allies, we're organized into the Lost Isles Trading Company. I hope to be a full service crafting group, but we're still members of the Duchy of Wessex, and obey all their diplomatic relations. So the Duchy of Wessex has a PVP arm, and a crafting arm now. We're still looking for more mature crafters if anyone wants to join up.

[Daarco]

But still, if you have a good crafting clan as a contact. You would protect it.
Having it would make more time for you to train in combat, doing exploring/quests and battle other clans. You wouldent have to set time to craft and gather resourses.

I know I will use them....
They help me and i help them:D

[Barbarossa]

The Duchy has a few full time crafters willing to sell our expertise to allies, we're organized into the Lost Isles Trading Company. I hope to be a full service crafting group, but we're still members of the Duchy of Wessex, and obey all their diplomatic relations. So the Duchy of Wessex has a PVP arm, and a crafting arm now. We're still looking for more mature crafters if anyone wants to join up.


Good for you, and the UP may come take you up on that someday...that is provided, of course, that Wessex and our lil' band aren't at odds, eh?

Nice to see at least one clan promoting crafting within their ranks.

My friend Lafitte says this: "PvP centric clans will more than likely seek out small crafting enclaves to enlist/bribe/threaten/cajole them into joining forces in an effort to cover this aspect of their clan's needs"

I don't disagree with this but I'll put it in another perspective. What if Clan A, a PvP clan is supplying Clan X with resources. What if Clan X only 'crafts' for Clan A exclusively? Any resources I should happen to stumble across, I'm getting them to our local artisan as soon as possible.

Any clan worth their salt are going to have crafters in their pockets, in-clan or outside of the clan. Looting in DF is going to be unlike anything you've ever experienced. Someone is gonna have to replace those looted weapons and armor, who is gonna do it? Your local blacsmith, etc., of course.

[Vanno]

More bodies in combat will generally always be a good thing, even if they are gimpy crafters. So, yes, it will be good to have crafters, and more importantly, merchants (people that know how to get materials cheap and sale goods high) in one's guild, even though they might be as good as your elite fighters.

[Azash_AT]

Good for you, and the UP may come take you up on that someday...that is provided, of course, that Wessex and our lil' band aren't at odds, eh?

Nice to see at least one clan promoting crafting within their ranks.

My friend Lafitte says this: "PvP centric clans will more than likely seek out small crafting enclaves to enlist/bribe/threaten/cajole them into joining forces in an effort to cover this aspect of their clan's needs"

I don't disagree with this but I'll put it in another perspective. What if Clan A, a PvP clan is supplying Clan X with resources. What if Clan X only 'crafts' for Clan A exclusively? Any resources I should happen to stumble across, I'm getting them to our local artisan as soon as possible.

Any clan worth their salt are going to have crafters in their pockets, in-clan or outside of the clan. Looting in DF is going to be unlike anything you've ever experienced. Someone is gonna have to replace those looted weapons and armor, who is gonna do it? Your local blacsmith, etc., of course.

I have run the economics behind yoru example scenario. They dont work period. That scenario depends on a quid pro quo basis you give them the resources they give you the finished goods. NO money ever changes hands thats the only way it would work. Of course at that point you buddy crafters are in your clan arent they.

This is what you failed to mention. You give them Gold+Resouces and they give you finished goods. So you have to spend twice the amount of time fighting for resouces, farming gold, and trading raw resouces to get resouces and an income just to pay them to make some swords. Or they dont charge you enough gold and they end up taking a loss. Either way its just jacked up.
The economics of that situation is horendous. You are basically enslaving your own clan to the crafting clan or beggaring the crafting clan and insuring the relationship is ultimately doomed. My prediction if you go with that model you will start losing members or the crafters will just quit and go to some other clan.

I think systems that have a crafting arm to the clan work the best. The model AT has always used has a crafting/logistics branch and a millitary branch (and a few others but they are not relevant here). Each works on a mutually beneficial basis. The millitary arm gets the resources for the crafters and in turn the crafters turn the resouces into items for the military. The millitary takes those items and employ's them to maintain and or increase the resouce levels available to the clan. An entire conglomeration working collectively towards success.

I dont think independent crafters and independent crafter clans will see a great deal of success in DFO. Merrin pretty much pointed out the reasons.

That and there is nothing saying you cant have the 10-20% of your clan that is crafters learn 2-4 combat skills to form a city militia force if needs be. Also on the same token it would not be beyond reason to ask your millitary folks to learn a couple of gathering skills to assist in resouce collection. Many hands make small work and nobody is going to be fighting all the time. So if they are out there killing bears they might as well be getting you bear hides or chopping wood in between bear kills.

[Daarco]

But the crafting clans will have clans working for them to get resources.

Thats what i mean by letting the crating clans deal with the crafting:D
If i contact a crafting clan and want to get 40 swords, if they cant do it....i contact another one.

[Shamoke]

Crafting clans will go the same route as mercenary wanabees in Darkfall...down and out. If crafters do not have the requisite PvP skills to protect themselves in the field, kill mobs and other players who have resources on them, and to fight for resource mines, their clan will not progress. To think that clans could dedicate themselves to crafting assumes they could do so without a formidable PvP complement in the field, whereas having that PvP complement simply makes them the same as any other run-of-the-mill Darkfall clan.

Clans will need easy and quick access to replenishments on a 24-hour basis. Depending on other clans to provide these resources to you from afar, on MARKED UP prices, does not make good sense.

It depends how the game goes. I doubt every clan will be big enough to have a full range of craftable goods at their finger tips. If these small, less organized clans can survive, then there will be a market for crafted items. An open city that supplies all those small clans and lone wolves out there. I can see it happening, but that doesn't mean people are not going to attack it.

[Saorlan]

Seeing as you can learn both combat and crafting skills at the same time there is no need to be just a crafter or just a warrior.

When there is no fighting to be had craft.

Simple.

This thread is defunct.

[Daarco]

But not because you can, you maybe dont like to craft:D

You will only have to do what you want.

[Angelmar]

Seeing as you can learn both combat and crafting skills at the same time there is no need to be just a crafter or just a warrior.

When there is no fighting to be had craft.

Simple.

This thread is defunct.

Somehow I don't think it will be quite that simple.

Everyone cant do everything with 100% efficiency.

However, your welcome to continue to believe that fairy tale.

[Marrik]

All clans, I would assume, will want crafters in the guild or at least have crafters associated with the clan, regardless of their alliances or affiliations.

Assume Darkfall will be a one character slot game.

Would you encourage crafters within your clan, knowing full well this limits a clan member from being 'in the shit' [combat] or would seek outside crafters, such as a crafting clan?

My take is, crafters are going to be the most sought after players in the game. They'll also be among the richest. I can see crafting clans being created, with that sole purpose in mind, becoming a big part of the game. I saw it large scale in SWG. The scale it could amass in Darkfall could be literally amazing.

Any game I get in I usually craft, as a service to my crew and to make a little spare change or as a bartering tool. I don't think I'm going to get that luxury in DF. I'll be too busy piratin' to bother this time around.

Anyone else got a take on this?


the devs have said its not one character, though. its one race, but not one character

[alfaroverall]

the devs have said its not one character, though. its one race, but not one character
You DID see the several thousand post long OFFICIAL debate on this subject, right?

[Azash_AT]

But the crafting clans will have clans working for them to get resources.

Thats what i mean by letting the crating clans deal with the crafting:D
If i contact a crafting clan and want to get 40 swords, if they cant do it....i contact another one.

Nah man the economics dont work. Cause you have to input the time to fight for and get the iron and then go pay the crafters to convert your iron into swords. Your paying for the swords twice.

Many'a thread have I tried to sort out how this could possibly work and it just cant. Plain and simple the economics dont work with player controlled and conquorable resouces.

It depends how the game goes. I doubt every clan will be big enough to have a full range of craftable goods at their finger tips. If these small, less organized clans can survive, then there will be a market for crafted items. An open city that supplies all those small clans and lone wolves out there. I can see it happening, but that doesn't mean people are not going to attack it.

Dont count on it. Alot of the clans you see on the boards the "hi my names bob i started a clan with my bud" are not going to make it. They will be ripped up, gobbled up, and absorbed into larger and more functionaly sized clans. Those clans will have the stuff they need to survive.

If your refering to the small adventuring clans. Four friends who form up just to go adventuring together. They wont use pure crafter clans they will basically end up being a part of a larger clan in practice definently in name maybe and they will get supplied by that clan. Maybe they buy gear but its still from a full functioning clan.

[Merrin]

Somehow I don't think it will be quite that simple.

Everyone cant do everything with 100% efficiency.

However, your welcome to continue to believe that fairy tale.

I disagree 158%. I believe players will be able to do things with 100% efficiency in Darkfall. This game has no classes and for the developers to turn around and make unofficial "crafter" and "PvPer" class lines doesn't abide with the game's proclaimed feature.

[alfaroverall]

I disagree 158%. I believe players will be able to do things with 100% efficiency in Darkfall. This game has no classes and for the developers to turn around and make unofficial "crafter" and "PvPer" class lines doesn't abide with the game's proclaimed feature.
Then you believe wrong. You cannot do everything with 100% efficiency, in fact I doubt you can even do ONE thing (i.e. one skill tree) with 100% efficiency (i.e. GMing every skill in that tree.) Crafting and PvPing are not made mutually exclusive in this game, but a hardcore crafter will still be better at it than a hybrid crafter/PvPer.

[Azash_AT]

I disagree 158%. I believe players will be able to do things with 100% efficiency in Darkfall. This game has no classes and for the developers to turn around and make unofficial "crafter" and "PvPer" class lines doesn't abide with the game's proclaimed feature.

This is totaly possible its just a math game once people figure out the rate of skill decay.

Look at it this way I am going to name a few "classes" but assume for a second that just means you have leraned the primary and all the associated skills for that "class".

So you can be a good Swordsman, Mage, Sailor

Or you can be a good Swordsman, Mage, Shipbuilder


Under DFO's system its theoretically possible for this to be done by everyone in the game so clans can be self sufficent. Why? Cause using a Sword doesnt cause any faster skill decay in armor smithing than carpentry would. So you can just as easily be the Swordsmn Armorsmith as you can be the Armorsmith Carpenter!

Now how diversified the characters can be depends on the mathmatical rate of skill decay which none of us know yet.

[Taroth]

This is totaly possible its just a math game once people figure out the rate of skill decay.

Look at it this way I am going to name a few "classes" but assume for a second that just means you have leraned the primary and all the associated skills for that "class".

So you can be a good Swordsman, Mage, Sailor

Or you can be a good Swordsman, Mage, Shipbuilder


Under DFO's system its theoretically possible for this to be done by everyone in the game so clans can be self sufficent. Why? Cause using a Sword doesnt cause any faster skill decay in armor smithing than carpentry would. So you can just as easily be the Swordsmn Armorsmith as you can be the Armorsmith Carpenter!

Now how diversified the characters can be depends on the mathmatical rate of skill decay which none of us know yet.

Could you be so kind as to inform me of your guilds race, intended alignment, and main focus?

[Azash_AT]

Could you be so kind as to inform me of your guilds race, intended alignment, and main focus?

We have a recruiting thread answers all of that. Should be like third or fourth from the top. Dont trust the link in it though I wrote that blurb before we restructured our fourms.

[Taroth]

We have a recruiting thread answers all of that. Should be like third or fourth from the top. Dont trust the link in it though I wrote that blurb before we restructured our fourms.

Alright just checked it out, but it doesnt say if you guys intend to be good, evil or neutral. Care to edit it or fill me in?

[Azash_AT]

Alright just checked it out, but it doesnt say if you guys intend to be good, evil or neutral. Care to edit it or fill me in?

Good is relative. We are modeling ourselves after the Teutonic Knights a pretty brutal and nationalistic crusading order. So some people will think we are good but others will absolutly hate us.

However I dont see us doing the whole RPK thing that never was the AT bag so to speak. So we will remain good or reasonably close to it as far as the games alignment is concerned.

Also we will pretty much butcher any lore enemy we come across and we we can be pretty tough on our neighbors if we end up classifying them as "lore enemies" or they are just in our way.

[Celastin]

do what i do now ,

Eve online has a thing called Game time cards , much like every other MMO

you can buy these cards with cash or in game ISK (eve's currency)

what i do on my main account is PVP , kill people for isk , then use set isk to buy 90 day time cards which are 340 mil each , to make 1 mil as a new char sucks to make 340 mil as a pvper maybe takes a day or two , and i use set cards for my mining character to make even more isk for my corp and pvping ,

Eve online also allows you to sell your character for ISK with a 20 buck transerfer fee , which i find is realy nice , and recently they killed alot of accounts who bought isk online from macro miners

i'll be using 2 accounts reguardless , and i am extreamly hoping you can have it like eve online , were you can have xxx amount of characters but only able to train one at a time , but then again eve online can take up to 25+ days to train 1 skill such as battleship 5 , but most all tier aka tech 1 skills to get to fay is like 30 mins , 2 hours , 7 hours , 1 day 6 hours , 8 days , for lvl 1-5 , tech 2's usaly the same but add on about 2 hours for 1-4 each and 25+ for lvl 5

[Barbarossa]

do what i do now ,

Eve online has a thing called Game time cards , much like every other MMO

you can buy these cards with cash or in game ISK (eve's currency)

what i do on my main account is PVP , kill people for isk , then use set isk to buy 90 day time cards which are 340 mil each , to make 1 mil as a new char sucks to make 340 mil as a pvper maybe takes a day or two , and i use set cards for my mining character to make even more isk for my corp and pvping ,

Eve online also allows you to sell your character for ISK with a 20 buck transerfer fee , which i find is realy nice , and recently they killed alot of accounts who bought isk online from macro miners

i'll be using 2 accounts reguardless , and i am extreamly hoping you can have it like eve online , were you can have xxx amount of characters but only able to train one at a time , but then again eve online can take up to 25+ days to train 1 skill such as battleship 5 , but most all tier aka tech 1 skills to get to fay is like 30 mins , 2 hours , 7 hours , 1 day 6 hours , 8 days , for lvl 1-5 , tech 2's usaly the same but add on about 2 hours for 1-4 each and 25+ for lvl 5


I hate to sound stupid but I really don't get the point of this post...can you enlighten me as it seems to have no bearing on the subject matter.

[Vanno]

^ No shit.

[Azash_AT]

I hate to sound stupid but I really don't get the point of this post...can you enlighten me as it seems to have no bearing on the subject matter.

Thank god someone else was clueless I was thinking that three beers had destroyed me.

[alfaroverall]

Eve online has a thing called Game time cards , much like every other MMO
Not going into the complete lack of relevance in this post, very few MMOs actually have game time cards. WoW does and EVE does, I can't think of any others.

[Saorlan]

Lots of pointless posts in a pointless thread.

You can learn as many skills as you like in DarkFall so there will not be the usual crafting type and warrior type. If you can't fight in DarkFall then your going to be odd. If you can't craft then you are useless.

Therefore there will be warrior crafters and crafter warriors.

Stop the crap about "Crafters" and "warriors".

Stop.

Thanks.:faq: :faq: :faq: :faq: :faq:

[Merrin]

Therefore there will be warrior crafters and crafter warriors.

Stop the crap about "Crafters" and "warriors".

Stop.

Too many players simply can't crawl out of their class-modes to comprehend the classless state of Darkfall. They keep referring to their classes to make themselves feel safe in what should knowingly be an unsafe world. They don't want "crafters" who can defend themselves, then turn around and beat the bejesus out of a "PvPer". It's not the norm and I think they're going to resist the "no class" status to their juvenile wetbeds.

[Galvez]

Lots of pointless posts in a pointless thread.

You can learn as many skills as you like in DarkFall so there will not be the usual crafting type and warrior type. If you can't fight in DarkFall then your going to be odd. If you can't craft then you are useless.

Therefore there will be warrior crafters and crafter warriors.

Stop the crap about "Crafters" and "warriors".

Stop.

Thanks.:faq: :faq: :faq: :faq: :faq:


Well, should the question then be re-worded to something along the lines of: "what portion/percentage of your available skill points will you devote to crafting? And if you devote most of your points toward PvP skills, will you and/or your clan seek out those players or clans whose emphasis is more on crafting than PvP to offset any shortcomings within your clan?"?

If this was a game without full loot, I could see why you might come to the conclusion that this is a pointless thread, but since there might very well be a way for clans to kill and loot their way acrosss Agon, having crafters could conceivably be an option rather than a necessity. We just do not know how viable an approach this is.....yet.

[Barbarossa]

Lots of pointless posts in a pointless thread.

You can learn as many skills as you like in DarkFall so there will not be the usual crafting type and warrior type. If you can't fight in DarkFall then your going to be odd. If you can't craft then you are useless.

Therefore there will be warrior crafters and crafter warriors.

Stop the crap about "Crafters" and "warriors".

Stop.

Thanks.:faq: :faq: :faq: :faq: :faq:

If this thread is so pointless as you put it, why did you bother reading any of it, much less put your 2 pence in?

The other posts here seem to conflict with your assumption that this is thread is pointless...and congratulations, you are the only "know-it-all" who has posted here. If you can't put forth something contructive...move along.

[Taroth]

Understand as follows, for the best of players, all games deal with min/maxing. There is no sence in being half-assed or weak in what you contribute as a player. In a strong guild, all fighters will do exactly what they are told to do, probably fight, having a fighter with points in crafting is a complete waste of time. The crafting will all be done by the dedicated crafters in good guilds.

For the sucky guilds, who cares?

[Angelmar]

Too many players simply can't crawl out of their class-modes to comprehend the classless state of Darkfall. They keep referring to their classes to make themselves feel safe in what should knowingly be an unsafe world. They don't want "crafters" who can defend themselves, then turn around and beat the bejesus out of a "PvPer". It's not the norm and I think they're going to resist the "no class" status to their juvenile wetbeds.

Or instead of being unable to break out of the "class-system" they understand two very basic points.

1) If everyone can do EVERYTHING and be as good at everything as every other person there will be no customization in game. DFO isn't WoW, they aren't going to build your character for you and they aren't going to force everyone to have the same skills. Thats the point of the softcap/hardcap discussions. Perhaps there will be warrior/crafters, but every point of crafting they pick up under the softcap will be a complete waste and every point beyond that could be better spent towards more combat skills.

2) Somewhat a corollary to the above, pvp games are about min/max as stated several times in this thread. equally skilled players (assuming they can deliver on their active blocking system, ect.) the character that is the most min/maxed will win. Crafting points on a pvp character are a waste.

[Taroth]

Or instead of being unable to break out of the "class-system" they understand two very basic points.

1) If everyone can do EVERYTHING and be as good at everything as every other person there will be no customization in game. DFO isn't WoW, they aren't going to build your character for you and they aren't going to force everyone to have the same skills. Thats the point of the softcap/hardcap discussions. Perhaps there will be warrior/crafters, but every point of crafting they pick up under the softcap will be a complete waste and every point beyond that could be better spent towards more combat skills.

2) Somewhat a corollary to the above, pvp games are about min/max as stated several times in this thread. equally skilled players (assuming they can deliver on their active blocking system, ect.) the character that is the most min/maxed will win. Crafting points on a pvp character are a waste.

QFT

[Azash_AT]

Or instead of being unable to break out of the "class-system" they understand two very basic points.

1) If everyone can do EVERYTHING and be as good at everything as every other person there will be no customization in game. DFO isn't WoW, they aren't going to build your character for you and they aren't going to force everyone to have the same skills. Thats the point of the softcap/hardcap discussions. Perhaps there will be warrior/crafters, but every point of crafting they pick up under the softcap will be a complete waste and every point beyond that could be better spent towards more combat skills.

2) Somewhat a corollary to the above, pvp games are about min/max as stated several times in this thread. equally skilled players (assuming they can deliver on their active blocking system, ect.) the character that is the most min/maxed will win. Crafting points on a pvp character are a waste.

Your assuming there is an infinte number of combat skills you can learn. At some point combat skills become duplicative to one another. So you maxed all the sword and related skills. So learning how to beat people down with blunt weapons is duplicative. So which is a worse waste of points past the soft cap a duplicative weapon skill or gathering skills?

Or even better magery. Why learn archery and magic and melee and try to max all three. Its inherently duplicative. It would be reasonable to be a magic/archery raged specialist or a melee/archery hybrid or a melee/magic hybrid but all three doenst make sensse. So if the system allows for say a third group of skills why not learn something else.

According to you just cause your a fighting you wont be able to learn how sail ships! I think the system will allow for alot more diversity in character design than you are giving it credit for.

I also think that your argument on min/max is flawed because DF is going to rely heavily on PLAYER skill. IF you learn every combat skill in the game its not going to be like other games where that means you automatically hit and do tripple damage. So its possible that someone can suffice at being just a swordsman but really fucking good at being a swordsman as a player (I am assuming they learn the supporting skills for that).

Will pure combat spcialists be better. Maybe but only in varied situations they will be like Swiss Army Knives for combat situations cause they will have diverse combat skills allowing them to adapt to more varied combat sitiuations. Where as someone who speicalizes in one or two ares of combat only could find themselves in situtations where they are unfit. So Min/Maxing isnt the end all be all god of MMO gaming in DF that it has been in other MMO's.

[Angelmar]

300 ingame skills, with 500 as their goal. I somehow think there will be plenty combat related skills to learn to max out a character. Whether it be something like dodge, armor skill, block, parry, or athletics (to allow greater movement speed), first aid/field surgery (to allow reviving) ect.

I believe you, Azash, are making the mistake of assuming that just because the game doesn't have a level cap a character will be able to master all things. One of us probably closer to the mark, but only beta can tell.

since you bring it up, yes they say combat will be player controlled and that personal skill and twitch are supposed to play a role. How much? another question only Beta can answer. If DF with its in-house engine cut the Gordian knot and found a way to have a relatively lagless environment where 400 people can be on screen at once in a epic fight for a city, and the system can handle all 400 of them actively blocking/attacking. Then hey! You're right, Azash. However, I don't believe the DFO devs will be able to solve what has stumped so many other dev teams.

[Malevolent]

Our crafting strategy is simple:

We intend to subjugate all of you and force you to make us shiney weapons and armor.