Alternative Merchant Clans...

[Azash_AT]

This idea popped into my head because of the other Merchant Clan thread.

Most people are making one of two assumptions in regards to merchants in DFO.

Assumption 1: DFO will play out exactly like UO/SWG for Merchants despite some very large differences. So solo merchanting will be common and as easily viable as it was in UO/SWG.

Assumption 2: Whole Clans of Merchants will exist and own cities and will remain completely neutral to everyone around them while selling all their neighbors arms and armaments to kill each other with.


What about a Merchant clan based around the same service princples as a merc clan. All a merc clan is really going to do is show up and provide the labor and services contracted for. So in a game where every true resouces right down to the ground any merchant can plant a shop on can be owned by political/millitary forces why not just provide the "crafting" labor and services contracted for.

A clan that operates out of someone elses city or an NPC city for that matter. They dont worry about resouces they dont worry about anything accept mastering the art of actualy crafting items. Other clans would simply pay them for the service of creating items the customers would provide the resouces all the merchants would do is provide the labor and skill. Look at the scenario. A clan needs to bulk up its stable of ships cause they are having problems with an off shore neighbor's ships. Only problem is they really dont want to or have the skills/personnel to produce enough ships or high enough quality ships fast enough and to the quanitty they require. Well in comes the merchant clan. Just like building a house. You tell them what they want they tell you what they will need, how long it will take, and how much it will cost the clan. Deal is sealed and money and boats change hands per the terms of the deal.

This scenario can be worked out with anything from a guild stocking up on weapons, armor, potions, jump ropes, milk duds it doesnt matter it works. Also makes the merchants life easy as they dont have to worry about being ganked while mining or ninja looting some mine just to stay in business or hiring 3 merc armies to protect there merchant city.


Thoughts on this is that a viable concept for a merchant clan? I think it could work. Opens up a larger market to the merchant clan entire regions and free's them from alot of hassels. The only draw back I see is business might be more infrequent.

[Daarco]

Its a good idea, and many clans have that already:D

And i would guess big traders will built tradings outposts where caravans go. Those places may grow and become real citys. And having trading as only purpose.

[Azash_AT]

Its a good idea, and many clans have that already:D

And i would guess big traders will built tradings outposts where caravans go. Those places may grow and become real citys. And having trading as only purpose.

YOu can only build in pre designated spots. Im not to insane to assume that once a clan claims the central clanstone in that kingdome and takes over they are pretty much doing to assert there control over everything in the area. So even having the option as some foreign non clan member guy of setting up a trading outpost will be a rare occurance.

Again people applying that old UO/SWG paradigm "well I will just build a house and set up a shop". Na there are mean nationalistic "my clan first" type of guys that are going to be running these cities and kingdoms. Better to design a merchant clan concept that works with that rather than hope "we all just get along".

[Trigon]

This idea popped into my head because of the other Merchant Clan thread.

Most people are making one of two assumptions in regards to merchants in DFO.

Assumption 1: DFO will play out exactly like UO/SWG for Merchants despite some very large differences. So solo merchanting will be common and as easily viable as it was in UO/SWG.

Assumption 2: Whole Clans of Merchants will exist and own cities and will remain completely neutral to everyone around them while selling all their neighbors arms and armaments to kill each other with.


What about a Merchant clan based around the same service princples as a merc clan. All a merc clan is really going to do is show up and provide the labor and services contracted for. So in a game where every true resouces right down to the ground any merchant can plant a shop on can be owned by political/millitary forces why not just provide the "crafting" labor and services contracted for.

A clan that operates out of someone elses city or an NPC city for that matter. They dont worry about resouces they dont worry about anything accept mastering the art of actualy crafting items. Other clans would simply pay them for the service of creating items the customers would provide the resouces all the merchants would do is provide the labor and skill. Look at the scenario. A clan needs to bulk up its stable of ships cause they are having problems with an off shore neighbor's ships. Only problem is they really dont want to or have the skills/personnel to produce enough ships or high enough quality ships fast enough and to the quanitty they require. Well in comes the merchant clan. Just like building a house. You tell them what they want they tell you what they will need, how long it will take, and how much it will cost the clan. Deal is sealed and money and boats change hands per the terms of the deal.

This scenario can be worked out with anything from a guild stocking up on weapons, armor, potions, jump ropes, milk duds it doesnt matter it works. Also makes the merchants life easy as they dont have to worry about being ganked while mining or ninja looting some mine just to stay in business or hiring 3 merc armies to protect there merchant city.


Thoughts on this is that a viable concept for a merchant clan? I think it could work. Opens up a larger market to the merchant clan entire regions and free's them from alot of hassels. The only draw back I see is business might be more infrequent.



The problem with this deal is that it is much more advantaged to the merchant clan than it is to the clan they are living inside. Let me elaborate...
A clan will already own these resource points and the resources that come with them. Having these merchants come in and get materials from your mines and such, is basically them taking what the clan already owns and selling it back to them. Now you may say, "Well they are crafting for the clan." Is that really worth you paying full price for an item, or even half the price? Here are more disadvantages, your own crafters will hate you, you become completely dependent on the crafters in clan, and your politics now revolve around another clan leader.

[Azash_AT]

I dont think you get what I am talking about. This is not full price for an item. This is a price per job. The guy paying the contractors to build the house is not paying full market value to them to build the house. HELL NO! He is just paying for the labor.

As I said in my post this service comes into play only when the clan can not fill its own needs. So why would the clan's crafters get annoyed. Your again thinking UO/SWG where a clan is going to have its own members buy gear from its own members after giving resouces to them or something. Thats just idiotic. The clans crafters cant crank that much out or that quality out in the time required thats why you contracted outside the clan.

After the job is done the merchant clan is gone they will hold no longer term political power over the clan.


Think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. They are more like a temporary labor force in this scenario than anything.

[Trigon]

I dont think you get what I am talking about. This is not full price for an item. This is a price per job. The guy paying the contractors to build the house is not paying full market value to them to build the house. HELL NO! He is just paying for the labor.

As I said in my post this service comes into play only when the clan can not fill its own needs. So why would the clan's crafters get annoyed. Your again thinking UO/SWG where a clan is going to have its own members buy gear from its own members after giving resouces to them or something. Thats just idiotic. The clans crafters cant crank that much out or that quality out in the time required thats why you contracted outside the clan.

After the job is done the merchant clan is gone they will hold no longer term political power over the clan.


Think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. They are more like a temporary labor force in this scenario than anything.

Do you know how little someone will pay for labor? Expecially if they are in the place of clan labor most wont expect to pay.

[Azash_AT]

Do you know how little someone will pay for labor? Expecially if they are in the place of clan labor most wont expect to pay.

Specialized labor you cant get anywhere else is cheap? A lawyer is cheap, a construction crew is cheap (in comparison to a factory/assembly temp). Specialized labor for services are usually quite good in prices.

But no they wont be able to charge 100 per sword (if thats going market price for a sword). The price per sword would probably be half of what a normal market price is. But your forgetting the up side of this. The merchant clans expenses per job are a big fat 0. The only overhead they could conceavably have is members raising skill and thus buy resouces to practice what they do. That expense could be easily dodged several ways.

[Taroth]

Specialized labor you cant get anywhere else is cheap? A lawyer is cheap, a construction crew is cheap (in comparison to a factory/assembly temp). Specialized labor for services are usually quite good in prices.

But no they wont be able to charge 100 per sword (if thats going market price for a sword). The price per sword would probably be half of what a normal market price is. But your forgetting the up side of this. The merchant clans expenses per job are a big fat 0. The only overhead they could conceavably have is members raising skill and thus buy resouces to practice what they do. That expense could be easily dodged several ways.

I think what trigon is saying is that the HOST clan will have more issues with it, not the merchant clan.

[Trigon]

I think what trigon is saying is that the HOST clan will have more issues with it, not the merchant clan.

Thanks Taroth for explainin that to him :D . Why would a clan pay half price when all of the materials are theirs? At most I would give a small tip.

[Azash_AT]

Thanks Taroth for explainin that to him :D . Why would a clan pay half price when all of the materials are theirs? At most I would give a small tip.

Because you need 20 cannons or catapults to start the siege on your neighbor and you dont have the personnel to produce them that fast to meet the deadline.

Basically the clan is buying time or the merchants are selling the one resouce the clan cant own. Thats the skill and number of crafters.



Think it through. If a clan recruited nothing but multiple skilled crafters in various trades and all they did is train crafting skills then a self supportive clan that has to divide its specilizations between combat and crafting couldnt actually match the concentrations of crafting skill from the merchant clan. By only providing the crafting services the merchant clan frees themselves from the draw backs that will nullify true independing merchants (and merchant clans).

In the long run the clan could equal the merchant clans output if put to a comparison because of the easier access to resouce. However in the short run assuming they have access to equal amounts of resouces the lack of labor on the ruling clans part makes it impossible for them to match the output of the merchant clan.

Econ 101:

Land+Labor+Capital*Technology=Output

That forumula was correct when you calculated it to Rome and it is correct when you apply it to the US and its correct when you apply it to DFO clans. If you are mssing any of those primary 3 inputs your screwed and your output is screwed. If you do not have the propper preportion of any of the 3 your output is screwed and you cant meet your goals. Its a simple case of providing the one resouce clans could possibly be missing. Labor is the one input in DFO that brut force cant secure. So if your a merchant clan who doesnt opeate through pure force of arms (which means your like every other clan and not a merchant clan) then you provide the one input that you can actualy provide that other clans (your customers) might lack.

[Ludo]

Well, as far as it comes to supplying others, you won't be completely neutral.
If you give ruling clan or alliances good deals they can protect you in return.

In eve online you can find a nice system on how trading could work. Probably one city (most likely an npc one) will be a main hub of trading, perhaps not at the best prices but sell reasonably fast.

[Trigon]

Because you need 20 cannons or catapults to start the siege on your neighbor and you dont have the personnel to produce them that fast to meet the deadline.

Basically the clan is buying time or the merchants are selling the one resouce the clan cant own. Thats the skill and number of crafters.



Think it through. If a clan recruited nothing but multiple skilled crafters in various trades and all they did is train crafting skills then a self supportive clan that has to divide its specilizations between combat and crafting couldnt actually match the concentrations of crafting skill from the merchant clan. By only providing the crafting services the merchant clan frees themselves from the draw backs that will nullify true independing merchants (and merchant clans).

In the long run the clan could equal the merchant clans output if put to a comparison because of the easier access to resouce. However in the short run assuming they have access to equal amounts of resouces the lack of labor on the ruling clans part makes it impossible for them to match the output of the merchant clan.

Econ 101:

Land+Labor+Capital*Technology=Output

That forumula was correct when you calculated it to Rome and it is correct when you apply it to the US and its correct when you apply it to DFO clans. If you are mssing any of those primary 3 inputs your screwed and your output is screwed. If you do not have the propper preportion of any of the 3 your output is screwed and you cant meet your goals. Its a simple case of providing the one resouce clans could possibly be missing. Labor is the one input in DFO that brut force cant secure. So if your a merchant clan who doesnt opeate through pure force of arms (which means your like every other clan and not a merchant clan) then you provide the one input that you can actualy provide that other clans (your customers) might lack.

So they benefit from you going to war? Thats going to screw you over quickly. Not to mention only 20 people in that clan are getting paid, and not very much.

[Thiruen]

I don't know if this might work too well, its a possibility, but may turn many of their enemies against you. If those the clan paying is at war with know you're crafting weaponry, siege equipment, etc. for their warring clan they'll more than likely attack the Crafter's city to prevent the production and just out of spite for helping their enemy. I can on the other hand see many crafting clans that will sell their wares all around at random and take on trade agreements. In exchange for Weaponry, Labor, Siege Equipment, Etc. the Merchant Clans will recieve protection, this wouldn't happen with the first idea as the clan paying isn't obligated to defend the Merchant Clan's City.

[Azash_AT]

I don't know if this might work too well, its a possibility, but may turn many of their enemies against you. If those the clan paying is at war with know you're crafting weaponry, siege equipment, etc. for their warring clan they'll more than likely attack the Crafter's city to prevent the production and just out of spite for helping their enemy. I can on the other hand see many crafting clans that will sell their wares all around at random and take on trade agreements. In exchange for Weaponry, Labor, Siege Equipment, Etc. the Merchant Clans will recieve protection, this wouldn't happen with the first idea as the clan paying isn't obligated to defend the Merchant Clan's City.

Where in it did I say the merchant clan has a city. In fact in multiple posts I point out that up side of this is that the merchants DONT HAVE A CITY. They are living out of an NPC city or buming it out of a player city that will let them live there. If the other player city doesnt like them they can just up and move. It goes with the NO OVERHEAD at all.

There is no target to take revenge against these crafters they are truly above and out of the way of the frey. OMG they will get pk'ed. When? When they are sitting in the middle of there clients town square making stuff?????

Also is not like you go around slapping stickers that say "i made this catapult and I hope it blows the hell out of your castle...signed "Bobs Clan o' Merchants". You do your duty and get the hell out. If what you folks say is true Mercenary clans are screwed. They will get involved in one war and everyone on the opposite side will hate them forever and they will have to only work with one group of guys. Come on seriously I have never seen people hold that stuff agsinst merc clans unless they just perpetualy serve one particular guild "customer". Then people just lump them together.

[Azash_AT]

So they benefit from you going to war? Thats going to screw you over quickly. Not to mention only 20 people in that clan are getting paid, and not very much.

For that job. The beauty of this idea is the clan can be making swords for another clan, axes for an ork clan, houses for an alfar clan all at the same time. In fact if they have a web site they can be spread to the 4 winds out making money constantly.

Also think less I and more We. If the clan works it like a corporation where they pool the money and diviy it out equaly and help each other skill up and what not then everyone gets a pay day. Many hands make small work. Again with the UO/SWG paradigm of the stand alone merchant.

I garuntee you that lone merchant concept will flop badly for 99.99% of the people that try and it will flop quikly. You might get a few eeking out livings on noobs in the NPC cities but you get out of that radius and its pretty much not gonna work.

Also your still missing the margins concept. You dont have to make as much per deal if your overhead is entirely comprised of this number ..... 0 . That means even if you only make 200 gold a sword its 200 profit. Where as market prices is 400 per sword. But that guy has to buy resouces, pay taxes, and cover the costs of getting ganked so his profit margin is actualy around 150 or less in most cases. Also the size of his market is going to suck really bad so he isnt going to have a garunteed sale of say 1000 units at 200 each.

[Varaan]

Also your still missing the margins concept. You dont have to make as much per deal if your overhead is entirely comprised of this number ..... 0 . That means even if you only make 200 gold a sword its 200 profit. Where as market prices is 400 per sword. But that guy has to buy resouces, pay taxes, and cover the costs of getting ganked so his profit margin is actualy around 150 or less in most cases. Also the size of his market is going to suck really bad so he isnt going to have a garunteed sale of say 1000 units at 200 each.

Really your missing the point of everyone else they trying to tell you if a guild is giving u all that is required to make a sword that has a market price of 400gold they are not and will not pay you 200g for just making it most you would get is probably around 10-25%(40-100g) tops. I mean really I would rather spend that 200g a sword level my own guild crafter that can then make our sword for no cost at all doe we all ready have all the materials that are need to do it. so in the end i think the only way this could work is if u had a Tremandus amount of customers.

[Azash_AT]

I guess by everyones response you all assume clans will have infinite amounts of time to achieve any result and there will be no such thing in DFO as situational deadlines. That and skilled labor pools associated with any skill at any time will be relatively infinite because everything in DFO works on a long run model.


IF thats the case there wont be ANY merchant clans or indpendent merchants in the game and I am going to get Barney the Purple Dinosaur to manage my clans logistics.

[Wizeguy568]

To me it makes perfect sense and it happens it today's workplace all the time. How many business don't outsource or bring in outside services to assist with tasks.

The thought that any clan could be entirely self-sufficient without the needs of services from outside parties is simply ridiculous. No complex organizational structure is ever, I repeat ever, self-sufficient. Not even the ol' USofA.

So to me it makes perfect sense to hire a guild to perform tasks and make crafts for you, in fact it seems more efficient that way.

[Varaan]

Ok azash now I think of it more yes I can see were your coming from. But I still think it may be hard to find people willing to pay that much of the cost if they are providing the mats that you are using. also I don't see your skill be used as much by offensive forces as I do by defensive forces do to the fact if I plain to raid a guild city of something am going to plain it out ahead of time by days if not week so I really won't need a rush on my siege equipment. But yet if I was going to be attack and had found out a day or even just hours before then I would be willing to pay 50 to 75% of the cost if it means keeping my city alive.

Edit - so i think most of the time a guild like this would only make 20-30%ish of the cost of what thier making not to say that bad for as u said u have almost a non exsitant over head cost. so if make 500 weapons in a week that cost on avg 300g your making 30k-45k(20-30% of 150k).

[Azash_AT]

The only problem I could see with this model isthe same thing that afflicts merc clans.

Lack of customers. Since your only doing big jobs and only for clans your going to have to market to the whole of Agon to find enough customers to consistently keep you busy. Maybe if wars are frequent enough then I can see customers not being an issue.


Also think less of raids and more of wars that last for MONTHS in IRL and littealy become wars of attrition. Hell I remember one siege in SB that lasted for 7 days and went 24/7 only stopping when the server went down. Think of clans organizing in shifts to fight an enemy 24 hours a day.

That is the length people go to when virtual realestate is on the line. So an additional labor source to craft stocked up resouces into whatever you need would be a god send.

Frankly as a clan leader myself I am thinking that keeping resouces in some raw form like ingots, lumber etc for the most part is the smarter choice. If you build a 1000 swords and have them stockpiled and then find you need shields that would suck. Cause not only do you not have the shields you dont have the metal anymore either.

[Kverik]

My only question is are merchants going to be screwed over for ex

Selling Big ship 20 stories 10000 cannons ( just for ex ) then could some one come along with like 3 other people 1 trade with me to see i have it he puts up cash then cancles trade then a 3 on 1 killing spree of me take my gear and my invo items ? thats what bothers me

[Azash_AT]

My only question is are merchants going to be screwed over for ex

Selling Big ship 20 stories 10000 cannons ( just for ex ) then could some one come along with like 3 other people 1 trade with me to see i have it he puts up cash then cancles trade then a 3 on 1 killing spree of me take my gear and my invo items ? thats what bothers me

Possibly. Thats why I think individual merchants ala UO/SWG will not be common in fact they will be rare. Also a clan of pure merchants owning a city will be rare cause thats going to be SUPER hard to get off the ground. Its possible if you start with MILLIONS but starting from scratch and lasting without getting wiped out??? Dam near impossible cause your a giant target.


Hence why I was trying to think outside the box. Use a clan system that minimized risk and overhead while still remaining a pure merchant clan.



One advantage though for DFO in your example is that DFO merchants can have NPC's that do the selling for them like in UO and SWG. So you dont have to be standing there hawking your goods. So in that way you can mitigate some of the risk.