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Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 11:57
Demonstrators and police clashed in downtown Montreal Wednesday after student group leaders abandoned talks with Quebec's education minister aimed at resolving an impasse over the government's proposed tuition hikes.

More than 10,000 students marched in the city's core after leaving Parc Emilie-Gamelin, where a demonstration began at 8:30 p.m. Police declared the protest illegal just before 10:30 p.m. and used stun grenades and chemical irritants to disperse the demonstrators.

According to the Montreal police Twitter account, protesters also set fire to a car at the corner of Stanley and Ste-Catherine streets.

Police said cars have been splashed with red paint during the demonstration, and protesters threw rocks at banks along their route, smashing windows at at least five banks.

CBC's Dan Halton reported that police charged the protesters with little or no warning in some cases.

Figures on the number of arrests and injuries were due to be released Thursday morning, police said.

Talks called off
The leaders of Quebec's CÉGEP and university student federations called off talks with the Liberal government, after it expelled the movement's most militant faction.

The FECQ and the FEUQ announced their decision to abandon the talks, just as negotiations were set to resume Wednesday with Education Minister Line Beauchamp.

That decision was sparked by Beauchamp's announcement that the student group CLASSE was being expelled from the discussion table. The minister blamed the group for a violent demonstration Tuesday night in Montreal. except they dissociated themself from it.

During that demonstration, a bank window was smashed, a police officer was injured and three people were arrested.

Beauchamp said the demonstration happened despite a so-called "truce" with student leaders and called it “unacceptable."

She also accused CLASSE of using inflammatory language on its website to promote other demonstrations, including one scheduled for Wednesday night.
swearing is part of our slang, it's not inflammatory

The president of Quebec's CÉGEP Federation, Léo Bureau-Blouin, said the breakdown in talks will not go over well with students.

"I think it's going to have negative consequences on the climate in Quebec. I think it's going to frustrate students hoping for solutions," he said.

Student leaders are denouncing violence, but are urging the education minister to "see beyond" a few violent acts, restart talks, and bring an end to the 10-week old conflict.

Always makes me laugh when they say breaking windows is violent.



Violence is defined by the World Health Organization as the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation.[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces. Cops do more violence then students.

that fucktard minister need to get fired already.

That was a spontaneous demonstration

Damedius
04-26-2012, 12:10
I fail to see the point of the protests.

Would you protest outside Campbells if they raised their prices of their soups?

Would you protest outside of BMW if they raised the prices of their vehicles?

Etc..

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 12:16
Poor fiscally sad students crying about a pocket change increase to tuition fees.

Prices increase when you flood the market with new demand but don't have an increase in supply. Tons of school loans + everyone being told college is expected of them + stagnant teacher & school supply = skyrocketing prices. Does not take a genius to figure it out.

Now, agree with this or not, that's fine. What one can't disagree with is that breaking windows, disrupting the normal workflow of people during the day (these protests have been going on for 11 weeks ffs) is not the right way to try and change things. All they do is piss off the people who actually work to finance their lifestyle.


I fail to see the point of the protests.

Would you protest outside Campbells if they raised their prices of their soups?

Would you protest outside of BMW if they raised the prices of their vehicles?

Etc..

People here think higher formal education is a god given right or some bs like that.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 12:41
I fail to see the point of the protests.

Would you protest outside Campbells if they raised their prices of their soups?

Would you protest outside of BMW if they raised the prices of their vehicles?

Etc..

15% increase per year.


People here think higher formal education is a god given right or some bs like that.No we think education is a right, just like having a home and that it shouldnt only be doctors's kids that get to go to university. Topped by the fact that universities are extremely poorly managed.

PS: DC, cause paying 30 grand for a session is a much better approach.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 12:57
15% increase per year.

No we think education is a right, just like having a home and that it shouldnt only be doctors's kids that get to go to university. Topped by the fact that universities are extremely poorly managed.

PS: DC, cause paying 30 grand for a session is a much better approach.

How much does a library card cost?

Maybe $20 a year. I'd say that is a small price to pay for an education. How many books could you buy for the cost of 1 years tuition at a canadian university?

You aren't forced to go to university to get an education. I'm not sure who or what convinced you that you were.

Last time I checked you could walk into any canadian university library and read any book on the shelves. There are plenty of alternatives to smashing windows and chanting stupid slogans. All seem more productive IMO.

Sqarak
04-26-2012, 13:40
Last time I checked you could walk into any canadian university library and read any book on the shelves. There are plenty of alternatives to smashing windows and chanting stupid slogans. All seem more productive IMO.

Depends on whether specific employers want to any see proof of certification. Claiming to have read books is not always enough.

At any rate, everything is better than trashing someones stuff.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 13:40
How much does a library card cost?

Maybe $20 a year. I'd say that is a small price to pay for an education. How many books could you buy for the cost of 1 years tuition at a canadian university?

You aren't forced to go to university to get an education. I'm not sure who or what convinced you that you were.

Last time I checked you could walk into any canadian university library and read any book on the shelves. There are plenty of alternatives to smashing windows and chanting stupid slogans. All seem more productive IMO.

Reading a book doesn't give you a diploma, in case you don't know.

Without manifestations like that, we would have way less rights that we have right now. I don't like when small groups of people are manifesting for their own personal reasons. But when a group that large is manifesting (it's the largest manifestation in the history of Canada) , for a cause that will not directly benefit themselves, but the next generations, I'm 100% with them. I can understand that everyone have different opinions, but what we see right now is the beginning of a revolution. And the people participating in it are the next generation of Quebec intellectuals, not a bunch of already overpaid labor guys that want to have 2$ more per hour.

Not only that, but the manifestation is also against the bad management of our current government, and about the corruption.

Take note also that most of the broken windows and painted walls are done by "professional" law breakers, not by the students. 99% of the student are pacific.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CgD442YFRQ&feature=fvwrel

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 13:40
How much does a library card cost?

Maybe $20 a year. I'd say that is a small price to pay for an education. How many books could you buy for the cost of 1 years tuition at a canadian university?

You aren't forced to go to university to get an education. I'm not sure who or what convinced you that you were.

Last time I checked you could walk into any canadian university library and read any book on the shelves. There are plenty of alternatives to smashing windows and chanting stupid slogans. All seem more productive IMO.

Yeah, you can become a doctor just by reading books. :bang: Reading books is perfect for personnal knowledge not to get a good job.


Take note also that most of the broken windows and painted walls are done by "professional" law breakers, not by the students. 99% of the student are pacific.
That, why students tell the cops to arrest the people wearing mask and the police doesnt do shit until they start breaking shit?

Damedius
04-26-2012, 13:50
Yeah, you can become a doctor just by reading books. :bang: Reading books is perfect for personnal knowledge not to get a good job.

You do need to go university to become a Doctor.

However you do not need a degree to make money. I make more money than most of my friends that went to university.

I know plenty that got degrees that are useless for practical applications. They ended up getting a huge debt which doesn't help them get a job. They could have gotten the same education for practically free.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 14:02
Reading a book doesn't give you a diploma, in case you don't know.

Without manifestations like that, we would have way less rights that we have right now. I don't like when small groups of people are manifesting for their own personal reasons. But when a group that large is manifesting (it's the largest manifestation in the history of Canada) , for a cause that will not directly benefit themselves, but the next generations, I'm 100% with them. I can understand that everyone have different opinions, but what we see right now is the beginning of a revolution. And the people participating in it are the next generation of Quebec intellectuals, not a bunch of already overpaid labor guys that want to have 2$ more per hour.

Not only that, but the manifestation is also against the bad management of our current government, and about the corruption.

Take note also that most of the broken windows and painted walls are done by "professional" law breakers, not by the students. 99% of the student are pacific.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CgD442YFRQ&feature=fvwrel

If they want a diploma they could go to work to earn money to pay for. Their are lots of companies that offer scholarships and bursaries for their employees. They could also work and go to school at the same time. My mother did this. She worked as nurse while going back to school to become an administrator

That being said you don't need a diploma to make money. I make as much money as my mother did when she was working.

I would also like to add that a diploma is just a piece of paper. It doesn't guarantee success or money. I know plenty of people with diplomas and degrees that work in call centres and warehouses.

Sqarak
04-26-2012, 14:10
I would also like to add that a diploma is just a piece of paper. It doesn't guarantee success or money. I know plenty of people with diplomas and degrees that work in call centres and warehouses.

I also know people without a diploma that work in call centres and warehouses. However, I know very few people with well paid jobs that have no form of certification at all.
I don't have college degree, but I am certified in several field that are relevant to my IT job. Luckily my former employer paid for those courses.



Even while working in construction I needed to get some skills certified if I wanted a additional pay.

Chipatama
04-26-2012, 14:28
People here think higher formal education is a god given right or some bs like that.

How dare they.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 14:50
If they want a diploma they could go to work to earn money to pay for. Their are lots of companies that offer scholarships and bursaries for their employees. They could also work and go to school at the same time. My mother did this. She worked as nurse while going back to school to become an administrator


where are you from?

Damedius
04-26-2012, 14:51
where are you from?

Canada

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 14:53
Canada

Education depends on provinces. Relying on scholarships is silly. My single mother was doing 50 000$ a year (not sure her boyfriend counted), therefore I was not allowed to get scholarship.

Bissen
04-26-2012, 14:56
Drug addicts yelling for more heroin. Give it to them. They paid for it after all...

Ohh wait. Their heroin money is going to fill the coffers at goldman sachs...

Damedius
04-26-2012, 15:12
Education depends on provinces. Relying on scholarships is silly. My single mother was doing 50 000$ a year (not sure her boyfriend counted), therefore I was not allowed to get scholarship.

Please reread.

I said some employers offer scholarships. It doesn't matter how much money your parents make. The employer is paying for it.

You are thinking of low income bursaries and scholarships.

http://www.canlearn.ca/eng/postsec/money/grants/glif.shtml

These are indeed regulated by the provinces since they use tax dollars

These are two separate types of scholarships.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 15:14
They could also work and go to school at the same time.

What do you think they do? The majority of the students already work at the same time than they study, to a point where it is harmful on their results.

It's easy to pay for your study when you live in a city with a University and you stay at your parents house. Like a vast majority of students here, I didn't had that chance. I lived in apartments far from my home village since I'm 15, first for playing hockey, then for college and University. I also did 12-15K per year while I was studying. Result? I have my diploma, but I also start my working life with a 18k debt. It may be not seems a big deal, but with all the interest that I'll have to pay on that debt, in the end my studies will have cost me more than someone who had a family rich enough to pay it directly.

What the students want right now, is to be able to pay for their studies when they will have the money for it, no when they are poor. And they'll have the money when they'll be working full time after they have finished studying. It's a fact that people with University degrees, in average, have better salaries, so they'll pay more taxes than people who don't. In the end, not only are they already paying for their study, but they also bring more to the society than the average people who didn't study.

Also, some studies show that if they increase the fees like they want to do (75% increase in 5 years...), this will chase a couple thousands people from the university... the ones that will just not have enough money to pay for the bill.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 15:33
What do you think they do? The majority of the students already work at the same time than they study, to a point where it is harmful on their results.

It's easy to pay for your study when you live in a city with a University and you stay at your parents house. Like a vast majority of students here, I didn't had that chance. I lived in apartments far from my home village since I'm 15, first for playing hockey, then for college and University. I also did 12-15K per year while I was studying. Result? I have my diploma, but I also start my working life with a 18k debt. It may be not seems a big deal, but with all the interest that I'll have to pay on that debt, in the end my studies will have cost me more than someone who had a family rich enough to pay it directly.

What the students want right now, is to be able to pay for their studies when they will have the money for it, no when they are poor. And they'll have the money when they'll be working full time after they have finished studying. It's a fact that people with University degrees, in average, have better salaries, so they'll pay more taxes than people who don't. In the end, not only are they already paying for their study, but they also bring more to the society than the average people who didn't study.

Also, some studies show that if they increase the fees like they want to do (75% increase in 5 years...), this will chase a couple thousands people from the university... the ones that will just not have enough money to pay for the bill.

It was your choice though.

You decided to take on debt because you thought it would benefit you in the end. You didn't have to do it. You could have got a job and saved up the money to go to university. This is what people used to do if they couldn't afford it. My parents did this. They both came from poor families.

The students you are talking about want the education without having to do the hard work required to get it.

Here is a study for you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.html

I remember when I was younger. I was told the same things you were probably told. If I didn't go to university or college I would be poor. I learned later that this wasn't the truth at all.

88Chaz88
04-26-2012, 15:36
It was your choice though.

You decided to take on debt because you thought it would benefit you in the end. You didn't have to do it. You could have got a job and saved up the money to go to university. This is what people used to do if they couldn't afford it. My parents did this. They both came from poor families.

The students you are talking about want the education without having to do the hard work required to get it.

Here is a study for you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.html

I remember when I was younger. I was told the same things you were probably told. If I didn't go to university or college I would be poor. I learned later that this wasn't the truth at all.

Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.

Krag
04-26-2012, 15:47
This is about more than tuition, it's the younger generation realizing how much they've been fucked over.

The past 50 years, the older generation took Quebec from richest province in the federation to poorest with anti-growth social policies, they gave themselves (public workers) free pensions while wrecking the healthcare system and the province's infrastructure. Now the debt has been maxed, no more borrowing, so austerity must begin. The spark that has enraged the youth is that this first major austerity shot is directed at them, while it is the perks for older people that are really burdening the budget.

Quebecers like to talk about the social "solidarity" of Quebec society, but the reality is the old generation is fucking over the younger, leaving them with a society in a mess, overtaxed, falling apart, and a massive debt they will spend their whole lives burdened by.

It's funny to see the opposition party (Marois) kissing the ass of the protesters to try and blame it all the Liberal party, in reality if the PQ got back in power (after helping create this situation over the past 50 years) they would move first to protect their unionist and pensioner supporters who live fat right now, they would not sacrifice their unsustainable lifestyle to make life better for young and future Quebec.

This is only going to get worse, tuition is just a rally cry for what will become an inter-generational struggle, the elderly pass their expensive failures on to the youth, leaving them unable to do things like build a family and creates lots of nihilism. There is going to be a massive shakeout of Quebec society, things are going to get real ugly over the next 10 years.

BTW Everything I wrote can also be applied to most of Europe, and even parts of USA (California). This shit train is hitting a wall.

Bissen
04-26-2012, 15:59
Education depends on provinces. Relying on scholarships is silly. My single mother was doing 50 000$ a year (not sure her boyfriend counted), therefore I was not allowed to get scholarship.


It was your choice though.

You decided to take on debt because you thought it would benefit you in the end. You didn't have to do it. You could have got a job and saved up the money to go to university. This is what people used to do if they couldn't afford it. My parents did this. They both came from poor families.

The students you are talking about want the education without having to do the hard work required to get it.

Here is a study for you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.html

I remember when I was younger. I was told the same things you were probably told. If I didn't go to university or college I would be poor. I learned later that this wasn't the truth at all.

Because when your parents grew up the world economy was in dire straits as well...

You dun goofed.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 16:06
Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.

lol... pretty much this.

Damedius, your arguments are irrelevant to the question. Everybody knows that it is possible to make alot of money without going to the university. But it's also a known fact that ON AVERAGE, people who did University studies will win more money. At the end of the year, the average will pay more taxes. Nobody here said that it is impossible to have a good salary without studying. Congrats man if you do, but this is not the question, at all.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 16:30
This is about more than tuition, it's the younger generation realizing how much they've been fucked over.

The past 50 years, the older generation took Quebec from richest province in the federation to poorest with anti-growth social policies, they gave themselves (public workers) free pensions while wrecking the healthcare system and the province's infrastructure. Now the debt has been maxed, no more borrowing, so austerity must begin. The spark that has enraged the youth is that this first major austerity shot is directed at them, while it is the perks for older people that are really burdening the budget.

Quebecers like to talk about the social "solidarity" of Quebec society, but the reality is the old generation is fucking over the younger, leaving them with a society in a mess, overtaxed, falling apart, and a massive debt they will spend their whole lives burdened by.

It's funny to see the opposition party (Marois) kissing the ass of the protesters to try and blame it all the Liberal party, in reality if the PQ got back in power (after helping create this situation over the past 50 years) they would move first to protect their unionist and pensioner supporters who live fat right now, they would not sacrifice their unsustainable lifestyle to make life better for young and future Quebec.

This is only going to get worse, tuition is just a rally cry for what will become an inter-generational struggle, the elderly pass their expensive failures on to the youth, leaving them unable to do things like build a family and creates lots of nihilism. There is going to be a massive shakeout of Quebec society, things are going to get real ugly over the next 10 years.

BTW Everything I wrote can also be applied to most of Europe, and even parts of USA (California). This shit train is hitting a wall.

I have to agree with all you just wrote. The boomers have fucked us big time. And the worst thing with this is the majority of them don't really seems to care about it. In the end, they'll have their big pensions, and they'll be happy. Most of them rely on younger generations to take care of the debt problems and of the environmental problems they created. The actual PQ is not better than the liberals on that matter. They both use the conflict for their electoral purpose.

That being said, I have faith in our youth. They prove right now that they have a better understanding of the real problems than the previous generations (or that they care more about it). I'm pretty sure one of the reason is that they have received a better education than them. And why did they received a better education? Because manifestations like this one had happened in the past that helped a larger portion of the population to have access to the university.

StainlessSteelRat
04-26-2012, 16:39
Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.

That wasn't his point. But it's a great argument to use against someone recommending we all become plumbers!


lol... pretty much this.

Damedius, your arguments are irrelevant to the question. Everybody knows that it is possible to make alot of money without going to the university. But it's also a known fact that ON AVERAGE, people who did University studies will win more money. At the end of the year, the average will pay more taxes. Nobody here said that it is impossible to have a good salary without studying. Congrats man if you do, but this is not the question, at all.

That's not his argument. His argument is that there is a choice. Like every choice you make, you weigh your options, the pros and the cons. And you live w/ the consequences of your choice.

And ftr, the ROI on university degrees is not a sure thing:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/college-roi--what-we-found.html

Bissen
04-26-2012, 16:41
Everybody knows that it is possible to make alot of money without going to the university

Taxes called. Said you were a liar.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 16:48
Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.

Association fallacy.

Just because A makes more than B doesn't meant everybody should be A.

In fact if everybody was A except for a few people who were B. Then B would make more than A because there would be a higher demand for B.

Krag
04-26-2012, 17:03
That being said, I have faith in our youth. They prove right now that they have a better understanding of the real problems than the previous generations (or that they care more about it). I'm pretty sure one of the reason is that they have received a better education than them. And why did they received a better education? Because manifestations like this one had happened in the past that helped a larger portion of the population to have access to the university.

Well education, also the internet allows the facts of the situation to be widely and easily accessable. So more people are aware of the budget, debt, and overall economic situation, and are able to understand how the burdens are being dumped on the youth. It will be much harder to talk about "Quebec society solidarity" when the figures show quite clearly that the boomers' idea of solidarity is to live free & fat, and dump all debts on the youth. It's all just a giant pyramid scheme they built, and the facts show that the pyramid is inverted, and hollow.

Bissen
04-26-2012, 17:14
Well education, also the internet allows the facts of the situation to be widely and easily accessable.

Ohh you're one of them internet believers ;)

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 17:27
It was your choice though.

You decided to take on debt because you thought it would benefit you in the end. You didn't have to do it. You could have got a job and saved up the money to go to university. This is what people used to do if they couldn't afford it. My parents did this. They both came from poor families.

The students you are talking about want the education without having to do the hard work required to get it.

Here is a study for you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.html

I remember when I was younger. I was told the same things you were probably told. If I didn't go to university or college I would be poor. I learned later that this wasn't the truth at all.
maybe they want to be lawyers instead of plumbers? Since when do you choose a job for the salary and not because you want to do it? The more people go to university, the better your talent pool is. every dollar invested in education high educations returns 10 x more. Losing 7000 university students for because of fees is completely retarded. If the government has money trouble, they could just remove public pensions instead which are ridiculously generous.

Like university rectors with TWO public pensions founds.


Damedius, your arguments are irrelevant to the question. Everybody knows that it is possible to make alot of money without going to the university. But it's also a known fact that ON AVERAGE, people who did University studies will win more money. At the end of the year, the average will pay more taxes. Nobody here said that it is impossible to have a good salary without studying. Congrats man if you do, but this is not the question, at all.By Damedius's logic, I should just grow weed for the rest of my life cause that's gonna get me much more money then anything else. There's only the issue of getting jail time but hey, there's no perfect job.

StainlessSteelRat
04-26-2012, 17:32
The more people go to university, the better your talent pool is. every dollar invested in education high educations returns 10 x more.

wtf are you smoking? Can you elaborate a bit more here? Maybe provide some substance to this claim? Is that 10X more money? For whom? Who made the initial investment? How does increasing attendance improve the talent pool? What is a talent? Who are you to decide this?

StainlessSteelRat
04-26-2012, 17:34
By Damedius's logic, I should just grow weed for the rest of my life cause that's gonna get me much more money then anything else. There's only the issue of getting jail time but hey, there's no perfect job.

No, that would be your twisted logic.

(At least I know what you are smoking now.)

88Chaz88
04-26-2012, 18:06
That wasn't his point.

No but it would be the result. That's my point.

If everyone only thought about the quickest/easiest way to make the most amount of money, nobody would go for university jobs. Thankfully the world isn't like that and people do what they want to do, not what pays more.

Now I know you're saying "well that's your choice", that's the thing though, it isn't. If you don't have the money you don't have that choice.

Now I'm a big believer in student loans. In theory it's a self supporting bubble, the students pay for the cost of their education once they start earning, thereby it gives them that choice they wouldn't normally have. The problem in Canada is that the student loans don't cover the outrageous cost of tuition, let alone the cost to live during this time.

Krag
04-26-2012, 18:28
How does increasing attendance improve the talent pool? What is a talent? Who are you to decide this?

Well that's the (self serving) theory of the academic-industrial complex in order to justify their existence and continued expansion, that university makes ANYONE better. In my opinion that's a very tenuous causal link... I'm pretty skeptical of how much a typic B.A. degree is actually improving people.

Bissen
04-26-2012, 18:41
Well that's the (self serving) theory of the academic-industrial complex in order to justify their existence and continued expansion, that university makes ANYONE better. In my opinion that's a very tenuous causal link... I'm pretty skeptical of how much a typic B.A. degree is actually improving people.

Considering the shithole economy. Not very much.

We've been over this before. Many academia educations are their to serve the "legitimacy" of established thinking in order for it to continue their ponzi schemes.

Emolas and Marilio comes to mind heh...

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 18:52
wtf are you smoking? Can you elaborate a bit more here? Maybe provide some substance to this claim? Is that 10X more money? For whom? Who made the initial investment? How does increasing attendance improve the talent pool? What is a talent? Who are you to decide this?

You get 100 lawyers, not all of them are going to get a job right away, only the best ones. If you have 10, more of them are going to be hired because the offer is closer to the demand. The 1$ to 10$ was a figure made during the last student strike. From memory it was along for every dollars spent on higher education, 10 dollars are perceived of income taxes, taxes, etc.

student loans are made by the government, if they increase the fees they increase the debt amount which means they perceive more interest if fees are higher. At least the interest rates are not too high.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 19:05
You get 100 lawyers, not all of them are going to get a job right away, only the best ones. If you have 10, more of them are going to be hired because the offer is closer to the demand. The 1$ to 10$ was a figure made during the last student strike. From memory it was along for every dollars spent on higher education, 10 dollars are perceived of income taxes, taxes, etc.

student loans are made by the government, if they increase the fees they increase the debt amount which means they perceive more interest if fees are higher. At least the interest rates are not too high.

The problem is you are just throwing around numbers without any context.

For example you need eight glasses of water a day. It's a ridiculous statement because it has no context.

The amount of water you need is going to vary depending upon many factors.

The weather, humidity, size of person, what activities they engage in that day, how many fruits and vegetables they eat.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 19:13
The problem is you are just throwing around numbers without any context.

For example you need eight glasses of water a day. It's a ridiculous statement because it has no context.

The amount of water you need is going to vary depending upon many factors.

The weather, humidity, size of person, what activities they engage in that day, how many fruits and vegetables they eat.
Yeah I know. I cant find any source for those numbers anymore.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 19:17
The problem is you are just throwing around numbers without any context.

For example you need eight glasses of water a day. It's a ridiculous statement because it has no context.

The amount of water you need is going to vary depending upon many factors.

The weather, humidity, size of person, what activities they engage in that day, how many fruits and vegetables they eat.

Gentlemen, here's what happen when you don't get educated correctly.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 19:21
I also think this strike is a symptom of how much citizens are annoyed after the last 2 years.

akira9999
04-26-2012, 19:48
You do need to go university to become a Doctor.

However you do not need a degree to make money. I make more money than most of my friends that went to university.

I know plenty that got degrees that are useless for practical applications. They ended up getting a huge debt which doesn't help them get a job. They could have gotten the same education for practically free.

I think you are right,degree isn't major,if you have good quality full basic knowledge no one can stop you from success.note based educated persons list is long but well educated persons list is too short.:)

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 20:03
How dare they.

When that "right" can only exist on the suffering of someone else, yes, how dare they.

Want to go to school? Excellent. Figure out what the hell you want to do, save up the money, & go. Or, alternatively, work your way through each semester at a time.

What the students should be rallying against is not the price increase, which is no more than inflation caused by the number of students, they should be rallying against the endless stream of easy government guaranteed student loans they hand out. You don't even have to pay them back unless you get a good job. It's so easy to go to College so too many people go.

NOT everyone needs to or should go to college.

StainlessSteelRat
04-26-2012, 20:10
You aren't forced to go to university to get an education. I'm not sure who or what convinced you that you were.


However you do not need a degree to make money. I make more money than most of my friends that went to university.


If they want a diploma they could go to work to earn money to pay for. Their are lots of companies that offer scholarships and bursaries for their employees. They could also work and go to school at the same time. My mother did this. She worked as nurse while going back to school to become an administrator.


It was your choice though.

You decided to take on debt because you thought it would benefit you in the end. You didn't have to do it. You could have got a job and saved up the money to go to university.


Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.


No but it would be the result. That's my point.

If everyone only thought about the quickest/easiest way to make the most amount of money, nobody would go for university jobs. Thankfully the world isn't like that and people do what they want to do, not what pays more.

Now I know you're saying "well that's your choice", that's the thing though, it isn't. If you don't have the money you don't have that choice.

Sorry, it wouldn't be the end result of his position. You are still wrong.

And it is choice. Not having the money means you get the money if you want to go as he already stated. It's not really that complicated and this notion that spending other peoples' money (taxes) to educate random idiots b/c the taxes are paid back 10X is ludicrous.

It's like any market. If there is a need, those in need will provide the means to educate people for their need. Right now, this mantra of "college for everyone" is a complete waste of money. There is no way that gov't is getting 10 back for every 1 spent. I will say right now that those numbers are fabricated/massaged in some manner and if not, I will own up and eat crow.

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 20:10
Fucking hell you've solved everything!

To hell with Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Scientists. Lets just fill our society with Plumbers because they make money.

Moron.

He just said save up & go to school after, like a responsible adult who has discipline and the capability of exercising patience even when he wants something now.


What do you think they do? The majority of the students already work at the same time than they study, to a point where it is harmful on their results.

It's easy to pay for your study when you live in a city with a University and you stay at your parents house. Like a vast majority of students here, I didn't had that chance. I lived in apartments far from my home village since I'm 15, first for playing hockey, then for college and University. I also did 12-15K per year while I was studying. Result? I have my diploma, but I also start my working life with a 18k debt. It may be not seems a big deal, but with all the interest that I'll have to pay on that debt, in the end my studies will have cost me more than someone who had a family rich enough to pay it directly.

What the students want right now, is to be able to pay for their studies when they will have the money for it, no when they are poor. And they'll have the money when they'll be working full time after they have finished studying. It's a fact that people with University degrees, in average, have better salaries, so they'll pay more taxes than people who don't. In the end, not only are they already paying for their study, but they also bring more to the society than the average people who didn't study.

Also, some studies show that if they increase the fees like they want to do (75% increase in 5 years...), this will chase a couple thousands people from the university... the ones that will just not have enough money to pay for the bill.

You don't freaking understand how the market works. They don't increase the fees for nothing. They increase them because the quantity of students is going up very fast (because of easy loans and constant encouragement from everyone to go to college) but the number of schools and teachers is not. Thus, price goes up. Supply & demand. People think this economic principle does not apply in service but it most certainly does.

If you have an issue with the price, fine. I do too. So protest the real cause, easy student loans.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 20:11
Gentlemen, here's what happen when you don't get educated correctly.

I can explain it in more detail if you want. Just tell me which part you had trouble comprehending.

Krag
04-26-2012, 20:37
I also think this strike is a symptom of how much citizens are annoyed after the last 2 years.

It's more than 2 years, this is the youth beginning to reject 40 years of society deficits being dumped on them by their elders.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 20:40
I can explain it in more detail if you want. Just tell me which part you had trouble comprehending.

I'll let your brain cool off a little before asking you anything.

StainlessSteelRat
04-26-2012, 20:44
I'll let your brain cool off a little before asking you anything.

Just a friendly recommendation: don't try and take the high road on this one.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 20:55
When that "right" can only exist on the suffering of someone else, yes, how dare they.

Want to go to school? Excellent. Figure out what the hell you want to do, save up the money, & go. Or, alternatively, work your way through each semester at a time.

What the students should be rallying against is not the price increase, which is no more than inflation caused by the number of students, they should be rallying against the endless stream of easy government guaranteed student loans they hand out. You don't even have to pay them back unless you get a good job. It's so easy to go to College so too many people go.

NOT everyone needs to or should go to college.

actually. It's the other way around. You dont have a choice to pay. If you dont they'll cease a part of your salary. :bang: going to university doesnt hurt anybody. Ridiculous pension founds do. They'll fuck every 1-30 year old. Also I dare you to show me any place where inflation is at 15% per year.


And it is choice. Not having the money means you get the money if you want to go as he already stated. It's not really that complicated and this notion that spending other peoples' money (taxes) to educate random idiots b/c the taxes are paid back 10X is ludicrous. Not every idiot can go to university. Only about 2% of the population is fit to be a doctor. It is actually the other way around. Everyone that is intelligent enough should be able to go university if they want not if they have the money to go.


You don't freaking understand how the market works. They don't increase the fees for nothing. They increase them because the quantity of students is going up very fast (because of easy loans and constant encouragement from everyone to go to college) but the number of schools and teachers is not. Thus, price goes up. Supply & demand. People think this economic principle does not apply in service but it most certainly does.Actually it's not. It's increasing because the fees were frozen for more then 20 years and now they decided that a single generation of students would cover the 20 years of inflation that were not covered before as if it was their fault.


It's more than 2 years, this is the youth beginning to reject 40 years of society deficits being dumped on them by their elders. Agreed but the last 2 years were just the drop that made the pot spill.

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 20:56
Just a friendly recommendation: don't try and take the high road on this one.

We're talking about someone who proposed our young generations to buy library cards instead of fighting for a better accessibility to the higher education not only for them, but for all the next generations.

Damedius
04-26-2012, 21:00
I'll let your brain cool off a little before asking you anything.

No problem. Since you seem to be shy. I'll break it all down for you.

The temperature effects how fast you would dehydrate. Both extremes hot and cold will cause you dehydrate faster than normal.

Low humidity also causes you to dehydrate faster.

If you do lots of strenuous exercise or work you will also start to dehydrate. This is because the body sweats to keep your body temperature cool.

Fruits and vegetables are very high in water content. Some are up to 90% water. So if you eat lots of fruits and vegetables you are getting plenty of water.

So if we put this all together what does this mean?

Person A does no physical work or exercise. Spends most of their time in doors, in a climate controlled environment. They also eat plenty of fruits and vegetables. This person would not have to drink much if any water.

Person B works in 12 hours a day in physically demanding job. They work outdoors in 30+ celcius/86+ farenheit weather. They eat mostly processed foods. This person would have to drink several litres of water a day or they would dehydrate.

I hope that cleared things up for you.

ArmyOkie
04-26-2012, 21:00
Cry baby bitches

DaveStunTueur
04-26-2012, 21:05
No problem. Since you seem to be shy. I'll break it all down for you.

The temperature effects how fast you would dehydrate. Both extremes hot and cold will cause you dehydrate faster than normal.

Low humidity also causes you to dehydrate faster.

If you do lots of strenuous exercise or work you will also start to dehydrate. This is because the body sweats to keep your body temperature cool.

Fruits and vegetables are very high in water content. Some are up to 90% water. So if you eat lots of fruits and vegetables you are getting plenty of water.

So if we put this all together what does this mean?

Person A does no physical work or exercise. Spends most of their time in doors, in a climate controlled environment. They also eat plenty of fruits and vegetables. This person would not have to drink much if any water.

Person B works in 12 hours a day in physically demanding job. They work outdoors in 30+ celcius/86+ farenheit weather. They eat mostly processed foods. This person would have to drink several litres of water a day or they would dehydrate.

I hope that cleared things up for you.

Am I getting trolled or something? Where am I? Ah fuck, I forget to put my pants on this morning before coming to the office.

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 21:11
actually. It's the other way around. You dont have a choice to pay. If you dont they'll cease a part of your salary. :bang: going to university doesnt hurt anybody. Ridiculous pension founds do. They'll fuck every 1-30 year old. Also I dare you to show me any place where inflation is at 15% per year.

Huh?

At least in the states, you do not have to pay until you get a job. Then it's taken from your paycheck, yes. Maybe student loans in Canada are different, but if you have to pay them even without having a job, that's good. Less incentive to take out the loan.

As for high inflation in other areas, look at gas, some food and medical costs (far exceeding 15%).


Not every idiot can go to university. Only about 2% of the population is fit to be a doctor. It is actually the other way around. Everyone that is intelligent enough should be able to go university if they want not if they have the money to go.

Err, what? Every idiot can go to college, but not every idiot can become a doctor. College does not only produce doctors, it produces Arts & drama majors too, or business majors.

If they want to become a Doctor or anything else requiring higher formal educational certificates or diplomas, can't get a scholarship and can't have their parents pay for them; they have to get a job, save up, and pay for school. Responsibly.

Montreal is incredibly cheap to live in. I've said it before and I will say it again, I've had a minimum wage job, part time, for a bit over a year. I have 5,000$ in my bank account and had an extra 3000$ I've saved that I use to help my mom and buy my PC and laptop.

So it's not like it takes long to save up. 2-3 years even for a Master's degree. But this requires sacrifice and discipline.


Actually it's not. It's increasing because the fees were frozen for more then 20 years and now they decided that a single generation of students would cover the 20 years of inflation that were not covered before as if it was their fault.

Someone has to pay for it, but if you think supply & demand has nothing to do with inflation in schooling you're insane. It's simply pull and tug.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-26-2012, 21:23
Huh?

At least in the states, you do not have to pay until you get a job. Then it's taken from your paycheck, yes. Maybe student loans in Canada are different, but if you have to pay them even without having a job, that's good. Less incentive to take out the loan.

As for high inflation in other areas, look at gas, some food and medical costs (far exceeding 15%).



Err, what? Every idiot can go to college, but not every idiot can become a doctor. College does not only produce doctors, it produces Arts & drama majors too, or business majors.

If they want to become a Doctor or anything else requiring higher formal educational certificates or diplomas, can't get a scholarship and can't have their parents pay for them; they have to get a job, save up, and pay for school. Responsibly.

Montreal is incredibly cheap to live in. I've said it before and I will say it again, I've had a minimum wage job, part time, for a bit over a year. I have 5,000$ in my bank account and had an extra 3000$ I've saved that I use to help my mom and buy my PC and laptop.

So it's not like it takes long to save up. 2-3 years even for a Master's degree. But this requires sacrifice and discipline.



Someone has to pay for it, but if you think supply & demand has nothing to do with inflation in schooling you're insane. It's simply pull and tug.

well of course you dont pay if you dont have a job. If you dont have a job, you make about 700 bucks a month, you can barely pay rent and food with that. Right now I'm on partial disability(CSST) from breaking my back. (I can work but with severe limitations including, I cant lift more then 15 pounds which just doesnt cut it in my old job) I wish I had gone to university instead of stopping after cegep. I had the capacity but not the patience.

The way it works here (it may have changed, it's been almost 6 years), you get a job and 3 month after you start paying. It allows people to settle up but then it doesnt matter wether you're paid 15 bucks an hour or 50, you have to pay. They are however very understanding with the fee and the interest rate is very low.

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 22:36
well of course you dont pay if you dont have a job. If you dont have a job, you make about 700 bucks a month, you can barely pay rent and food with that. Right now I'm on partial disability(CSST) from breaking my back. (I can work but with severe limitations including, I cant lift more then 15 pounds which just doesnt cut it in my old job) I wish I had gone to university instead of stopping after cegep. I had the capacity but not the patience.

The way it works here (it may have changed, it's been almost 6 years), you get a job and 3 month after you start paying. It allows people to settle up but then it doesnt matter wether you're paid 15 bucks an hour or 50, you have to pay. They are however very understanding with the fee and the interest rate is very low.

Well, there you have it. Student loans are not treated like a normal loan, and they are easy to get. People look at that and think, why the hell wouldn't I put myself into debt if all the fine details seem good?

The problem isn't necessarily personal debt, merely the availability of it. Housing market boomed because of easy loans. Same deal with college education, only the loans are directly from the government which is even worse.

People want a free ride, a piece of cake they can have and eat too, but it doesn't function like that, sorry to say.

The more people stop taking loans and evaluating themselves prior to even deciding that they want to go college, the better. Simply put, too many people go now that shouldn't. Higher education is not a right, it's a luxury. It's a service that, if you deem worth investing it, should be paid for by yourself.

If you want to take out a loan, fine, do so at your own risk, but it should be a personal loan, not easy governmental loans with low interest that you only have to payback when you get a job.

It's amazing how people are so vehemently against living within their own means and think it's okay to expect and even demand that other people fork over the bill for their desires.

Shaehl
04-26-2012, 23:45
Well, there you have it. Student loans are not treated like a normal loan, and they are easy to get. People look at that and think, why the hell wouldn't I put myself into debt if all the fine details seem good?

The problem isn't necessarily personal debt, merely the availability of it. Housing market boomed because of easy loans. Same deal with college education, only the loans are directly from the government which is even worse.

People want a free ride, a piece of cake they can have and eat too, but it doesn't function like that, sorry to say.

The more people stop taking loans and evaluating themselves prior to even deciding that they want to go college, the better. Simply put, too many people go now that shouldn't. Higher education is not a right, it's a luxury. It's a service that, if you deem worth investing it, should be paid for by yourself.

If you want to take out a loan, fine, do so at your own risk, but it should be a personal loan, not easy governmental loans with low interest that you only have to payback when you get a job.

It's amazing how people are so vehemently against living within their own means and think it's okay to expect and even demand that other people fork over the bill for their desires.


Student loans are one of the most aggressively pursued forms of debt in the country. With most other loans, you can declare bankruptcy, but student loans stay with you for the long haul. The only worse debt type would be criminal debt, and then not by much.

Also, one of the primary factors causing university costs to skyrocket is the fact that government will pay for anyone and everyone to go to college through student loans and other financial aid. Much like with health care costs, this unlimited money spigot gives universities an incentive to endlessly increase the cost of education--no matter how much they increase it, no one will be unable to "afford" it.

On one hand, this helps out people who would otherwise be unable to afford higher education. On the other hand, it increases the percent of the population that falls into the "otherwise unable to afford" category to ludicrous levels. Beyond that, it also ensures that droves of people who simply will not benefit enough from a (usually poorly chosen) degree to justify living under crushing debt for the next decade or two, end up wasting their time and money.

20 years ago my mother, coming from a borderline impoverished family on the verge of bankruptcy, got accepted at a university and payed for it entirely entirely out of pocket by working two minimum wage jobs. Nowadays it is simply impossible in most cases to pay for college on your own, no matter how determined you are, unless you come from a rich family or are already making a lot of money.

Krag
04-26-2012, 23:47
I've said for a while, people should be required to write a 10 page cost/benefit analysis of why they are applying to enter X program and submit it with their application. It would make them at least think through their application to women's studies honours program.

Silverhandorder
04-26-2012, 23:59
This is coming to America next. I do agree the older generation fucked the younger generation. However in all honesty many of the young are misled when they think the answer is to ask for more shit. The old are the richest in the western world. The young should stop paying for their pensions and their welfare programs.

Death's Chill
04-26-2012, 23:59
Student loans are one of the most aggressively pursued forms of debt in the country. With most other loans, you can declare bankruptcy, but student loans stay with you for the long haul. The only worse debt type would be criminal debt, and then not by much.

You can't erase the debt, but unless you have a job they don't pursue it. If you do, they take it out of your paycheck which, while that sucks, is a far cry from standard debt because people can choose to only pay the minimum while racking up more debt on the side.


Also, one of the primary factors causing university costs to skyrocket is the fact that government will pay for anyone and everyone to go to college through student loans and other financial aid. Much like with health care costs, this unlimited money spigot gives universities an incentive to endlessly increase the cost of education--no matter how much they increase it, no one will be unable to "afford" it.


Yep, completely agreed.


On one hand, this helps out people who would otherwise be unable to afford higher education. On the other hand, it increases the percent of the population that falls into the "otherwise unable to afford" category to ludicrous levels. Beyond that, it also ensures that droves of people who simply will not benefit enough from a (usually poorly chosen) degree to justify living under crushing debt for the next decade or two, end up wasting their time and money.

Indeed. This system forces you to become dependent on the government to go to college right out of high school. Since most people lack the understanding or discipline required to just get a job and save up for it instead, the government has plenty of debt slaves and there's no doubt about it, they love that.


20 years ago my mother, coming from a borderline impoverished family on the verge of bankruptcy, got accepted at a university and payed for it entirely entirely out of pocket by working two minimum wage jobs. Nowadays it is simply impossible in most cases to pay for college on your own, no matter how determined you are, unless you come from a rich family or are already making a lot of money.

Yes, now you have to work full time while not in school, save up, and then go to college. Not as good as the past, but it is possible, and it will only get better when less people go to college.


This is coming to America next. I do agree the older generation fucked the younger generation. However in all honesty many of the young are misled when they think the answer is to ask for more shit. The old are the richest in the western world. The young should stop paying for their pensions and their welfare programs.

Yes, the old screwed over the young. No doubt about it. Either by creating the system or participating in it but they are to blame.

It doesn't matter though. Pointing fingers at this point won't fix anything. My generation has to look at what caused the issue not to judge, but to understand. Instead, people are consumed with hate, and self-entitlement.

Most people my age see things are bad, but they don't want to return to a system that works because it means they don't have a governmental safety net to help them out.

Basically, people want the best of both worlds. That system can't exist yet, not until we develop perpetual energy & nearly full automation.

Grisu
04-27-2012, 03:38
not going to lie, didnt read any previous posts but as a student living in Montreal this is my opinion. its fucking basically free you pay like 200 bucks enrollment fee. you also dont have to buy the books if you dont want to. the protests are so ridiculous, the money they want to charge the students will end up being spent on them anyways. its retarded. if you can afford all your expensive laptops and such why the fuck are you bitching? the fact its becoming violent around me and that its preventing me from using the metro, they fucking throw bricks on the tracks thats just being selfish pricks.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 03:55
People were smoke bombing the metro too. It's ridiculous. Bunch of whinny little brats throwing a tantrum.

Forker
04-27-2012, 04:30
The education system isn't designed to enlighten or enrich, it's meant solely to train us for use by business. If there is going to be a system at all, it should most definitely be free to all, just like healthcare. If the Canadian government wasn't so intent on a manufactured deficit to steal 50billion dollars a year + the growing interest on our debt we could easily pay for this.

That said any industry is corrupt and evil and there shouldn't be any social programs at all.

A society of cooperation is much more just than one based on coercion.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 04:57
People were smoke bombing the metro too. It's ridiculous. Bunch of whinny little brats throwing a tantrum.

There's absolutely no possibility that it's the same people that always show up masked, to any demonstration ever to try to start shit up. None at all, correct?

The only way you're ever gonna stop anarchists is by giving them the bills for what they broke. If possible a bill that cant be erased by bankruptcy. Then they'd think twice before acting like retards.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 05:01
I am all for protesting over serious issues, like freedoms being uprooted or taxes, or endless perpetual wars creating piles of dead bodies.

I do not support protests involving a bunch of young students that are up in arms over a price increase when they don't even understand they are the reason it has increased, because they've accepted student loans in mass.

Forker
04-27-2012, 05:05
There's absolutely no possibility that it's the same people that always show up masked, to any demonstration ever to try to start shit up. None at all, correct?

The only way you're ever gonna stop anarchists is by giving them the bills for what they broke. If possible a bill that cant be erased by bankruptcy. Then they'd think twice before acting like retards.

At the g20 summit in TO most of the "anarchists" causing trouble in front of TV cameras turned out to be cops. Hilariously most of them thought putting on a che guevara shirt and carrying a backpack made them blend in...

88Chaz88
04-27-2012, 09:13
Sorry, it wouldn't be the end result of his position. You are still wrong.

And it is choice. Not having the money means you get the money if you want to go as he already stated. It's not really that complicated and this notion that spending other peoples' money (taxes) to educate random idiots b/c the taxes are paid back 10X is ludicrous.

It's like any market. If there is a need, those in need will provide the means to educate people for their need. Right now, this mantra of "college for everyone" is a complete waste of money. There is no way that gov't is getting 10 back for every 1 spent. I will say right now that those numbers are fabricated/massaged in some manner and if not, I will own up and eat crow.

taxes taxes taxhses taesjs rafsge...

Don't you get tired of ranting the same shit? I said the student loan bubble should be self supporting you moron. It is after all, a loan. Where the fuck does "taxes" come into it?

The solution is simple. Privatise all universities. Privatise the student loans. Yet regulate both. That way university education shouln't be funded out of anyone's taxes.

Holy fuck, what a socialist I am.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 09:39
taxes taxes taxhses taesjs rafsge...

Don't you get tired of ranting the same shit? I said the student loan bubble should be self supporting you moron. It is after all, a loan. Where the fuck does "taxes" come into it?

The solution is simple. Privatise all universities. Privatise the student loans. Yet regulate both. That way university education shouln't be funded out of anyone's taxes.

Holy fuck, what a socialist I am.

And what exactly would you try to regulate precisely?

88Chaz88
04-27-2012, 09:51
And what exactly would you try to regulate precisely?

Just that the loan companies and universities at least balance out their costs. If the unis charge ridiculous amounts they're free to, but the loan companies should be able to cover the cost. Otherwise we're still in the potential position that only the rich can afford the top education when it should be those most capable to achieve results.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 09:57
The problem with student loans to begin with is they are inherently more risky, because you're loaning to people usually without job experience, who have not yet actually graduated of course, and rarely have an actual job or source of income, as well as no credit. You can't get much more risky than that.

So, for a private company to loan to an individual such as this, interest rates would have to be very high, to compensate for the immense risk. There's no escaping that, and you can't "regulate" that away. It's a fundamental principle of market. If the risk is high, the potential reward must be so too.

88Chaz88
04-27-2012, 10:04
The problem with student loans to begin with is they are inherently more risky, because you're loaning to people usually without job experience, who have not yet actually graduated of course, and rarely have an actual job or source of income, as well as no credit. You can't get much more risky than that.

So, for a private company to loan to an individual such as this, interest rates would have to be very high, to compensate for the immense risk. There's no escaping that, and you can't "regulate" that away. It's a fundamental principle of market. If the risk is high, the potential reward must be so too.

So then what if the universitys themselves handed out the loans? They'd have to improve their standards in order to get the students into work to pay them off. Alternatively they'd have to lower their costs to lessen the risk. In the end it could regulate itself.

It's not a perfect system and of course I, one random guy on the internet, haven't thought of all the problems and solutions, but I think it's at least a start.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 10:36
So then what if the universitys themselves handed out the loans? They'd have to improve their standards in order to get the students into work to pay them off. Alternatively they'd have to lower their costs to lessen the risk. In the end it could regulate itself.

It's not a perfect system and of course I, one random guy on the internet, haven't thought of all the problems and solutions, but I think it's at least a start.

Well, see, you've touched on the main point. The market (being the many people that make up the country) will figure out a way that suits their own interests and those of the people they serve (their customers or clients) because if they do not, they will not last long. A university is no different.

If universities were private, and made the choice to hand out their own loans to select students (possibly only for specific majors that associate with jobs in demand) yes that is a possible solution. I could see some banks offering this too.

I think we can agree that having the government hand out these loans allows them to offer way too many perks and make the eligibility criteria almost non-existent is bad. Too many people can go simultaneously because of this, so prices have to rise. Which means those that would otherwise choose to work their way through school simply cannot do it.

I just want a system that benefits and encourages people to be responsible. Debt is handled too casually.

88Chaz88
04-27-2012, 10:48
Well, see, you've touched on the main point. The market (being the many people that make up the country) will figure out a way that suits their own interests and those of the people they serve (their customers or clients) because if they do not, they will not last long. A university is no different.

If universities were private, and made the choice to hand out their own loans to select students (possibly only for specific majors that associate with jobs in demand) yes that is a possible solution. I could see some banks offering this too.

I think we can agree that having the government hand out these loans allows them to offer way too many perks and make the eligibility criteria almost non-existent is bad. Too many people can go simultaneously because of this, so prices have to rise. Which means those that would otherwise choose to work their way through school simply cannot do it.

I just want a system that benefits and encourages people to be responsible. Debt is handled too casually.

We're pretty much agreed. As much as Libertarians would disagree though I think the government should just oversee that the system works as intended. I however certainly don't want to see the government lining it's pockets with taxpayer's money so that bullshit students can get bullshit degrees so it makes their bullshit statistics look good.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 11:04
It's nice to find some common ground at least.

Hyldor Gwyvallt
04-27-2012, 11:50
15% increase per year.

No we think education is a right, just like having a home and that it shouldnt only be doctors's kids that get to go to university. Topped by the fact that universities are extremely poorly managed.

PS: DC, cause paying 30 grand for a session is a much better approach.

Should ordinary people pay with their taxes for other people's kids' university?
Should a bricklayer pay taxes so that part of them fund OTHER people's kids to get a degree that might make them rich in the future? or should he not be entitled to use that portion of the money for his kids?

I agree on partially funding education, but the kids that want to go there (and their parents) MUST bear the most of the brunt...I witnessed kids that own a car protesting for the fees...WTF? do you need a car to study? If you have money to spend on a car then you have money enough to contribute MORE to your studies.

Regards
HG

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 12:39
not going to lie, didnt read any previous posts but as a student living in Montreal this is my opinion. its fucking basically free you pay like 200 bucks enrollment fee. you also dont have to buy the books if you dont want to. the protests are so ridiculous, the money they want to charge the students will end up being spent on them anyways. its retarded. if you can afford all your expensive laptops and such why the fuck are you bitching? the fact its becoming violent around me and that its preventing me from using the metro, they fucking throw bricks on the tracks thats just being selfish pricks.

Where the fuck are you studying? 200 bucks? You're still at college bro.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 13:38
Should ordinary people pay with their taxes for other people's kids' university?
Should a bricklayer pay taxes so that part of them fund OTHER people's kids to get a degree that might make them rich in the future? or should he not be entitled to use that portion of the money for his kids?

I agree on partially funding education, but the kids that want to go there (and their parents) MUST bear the most of the brunt...I witnessed kids that own a car protesting for the fees...WTF? do you need a car to study? If you have money to spend on a car then you have money enough to contribute MORE to your studies.

Regards
HG

Yes. The money he use is going to his kids too assuming they decide to. Here, public or private doesnt mean shit because even private schools are funded at 55% by the government. I dont know where you live but in Québec a lot of people live in remote places, having a car is necessary. (Not in Montréal, though, let's be honest)


So then what if the universitys themselves handed out the loans? They'd have to improve their standards in order to get the students into work to pay them off. Alternatively they'd have to lower their costs to lessen the risk. In the end it could regulate itself. The UQAM (Université du Québec à Montréal, largest french university in the world)
wasted 500 millions for an unfinished real estate project. Universities are very poorly managed just like school boards.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 14:37
We're talking about someone who proposed our young generations to buy library cards instead of fighting for a better accessibility to the higher education not only for them, but for all the next generations.

So what? I know many self-taught people that have great standards of living and careers in front of them.

Higher education should be more selective, not more accessible. Too many dumbfucks running around w/ college diplomas dilutes the value of the diploma: education inflation.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 14:44
taxes taxes taxhses taesjs rafsge...

Don't you get tired of ranting the same shit? I said the student loan bubble should be self supporting you moron. It is after all, a loan. Where the fuck does "taxes" come into it?

Are you serious? Where do taxes come into an issue involving gov't subsidies? Think about what you just posted.


The solution is simple. Privatise all universities. Privatise the student loans. Yet regulate both. That way university education shouln't be funded out of anyone's taxes.

Holy fuck, what a socialist I am.

Go ahead, privatize, I'm all for it. I think you should hop over to Montreal and let those students know about your great idea. See what kind of reception you get....

Why do you need to regulate it? If you fix interest rates, it's not private. If you fix repayment terms, it's not private.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 14:52
Just that the loan companies and universities at least balance out their costs. If the unis charge ridiculous amounts they're free to, but the loan companies should be able to cover the cost. Otherwise we're still in the potential position that only the rich can afford the top education when it should be those most capable to achieve results.

OK, just saw how you want it regulated. This is called price fixing and it doesn't work.

Not to mention, how exactly do you ensure that the loan companies "are able to cover the costs"? A private loan company is going to loan money based on the ability of the borrower to pay it back and/or based on the value of collateral.

Your idea, no matter how much I or anyone else may like it, will never get support even in the US let alone places like Europe/Canada.

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 15:53
So what? I know many self-taught people that have great standards of living and careers in front of them.

Did I said anything against that? That's not even the point of this thread. I did alot of reading by myself that I didn't learn at University, I agree that it is possible to learn a lot of things by yourself. Sadly, it's not everybody that can learn everything by themself. But anyway, the question is not even there...


Higher education should be more selective, not more accessible. Too many dumbfucks running around w/ college diplomas dilutes the value of the diploma: education inflation.

The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country. Higher education should be less accessible? Are you living in the 1800s?

Damedius
04-27-2012, 16:05
Did I said anything against that? That's not even the point of this thread. I did alot of reading by myself that I didn't learn at University, I agree that it is possible to learn a lot of things by yourself. Sadly, it's not everybody that can learn everything by themself. But anyway, the question is not even there...



The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country. Higher education should be less accessible? Are you living in the 1800s?

By the same token, you should realize that you don't have to go to university to become better educated.

You seem to be fixated by the idea that this is the only way to educate yourself.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 16:39
By the same token, you should realize that you don't have to go to university to become better educated.

You seem to be fixated by the idea that this is the only way to educate yourself.

there are some stuff that you cannot learn just from reading books.

Silverhandorder
04-27-2012, 16:48
there are some stuff that you cannot learn just from reading books.

Like what?

Shaehl
04-27-2012, 16:56
there are some stuff that you cannot learn just from reading books.

Yes, some things require practice--which can also be done outside a University.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 17:32
Quebec Premier Jean Charest and Education Minister Line Beauchamp outlined the government's offer to student groups Friday morning in a news conference in Quebec City.

"I want Quebecers to know that our government made a real effort," Charest said, adding that the student leaders now involved in negotiations were the same ones who walked away from the negotiations in 2010.

"We never took a dogmatic view on this and we are going to arrive [at] a result where we are going to substantially increase the financing of our universities and we're going to support our students."

The government's proposal includes:

Spreading the tuition increase over seven years instead of five.
The addition of $39 million in bursaries.
Loan payback schedules linked to income after graduation.
Creation of a special council to oversee management of universities.
Periodic evaluation of the impact tuition increases are having on students.
Several of those proposals were previously announced by the government earlier in April.

Student groups were quick to respond to the government's proposals. The group representing Quebec college students said the offers themselves aren't bad, but ultimately they won't save students money.

The FEUQ, which represents the province's university students, said it will take a lot more than the offer on the table to get students back to school on Monday.

Both groups offered to come back to the table today with two members from the third student group, CLASSE, but the government rejected the idea.

Talks between the three groups and the province broke off Wednesday after the government evicted CLASSE from the negotiations. CLASSE said Friday it will have to present the government's latest offer to its members early next week. But, the group's spokesperson said it doesn't address student demands and the hike will still mean a large burden for them.

Charest and Beauchamp stressed that, after tax credits, the increase would amount to about 50 cents a day for most students if the hike was spread out further.

"Honestly, my position is the following. I don't believe that 50 cents a day should compromise [their chances] of getting diplomas this spring," she said.

Students have been taking to the streets in protest of the province's planned tuition hikes for more than 11 weeks.

They say the demonstrations will continue until the government sits down at the negotiating table or an agreement is reached.

It's still not clear when that will happen.

Charest denied that the offer outlined represented a softening of their position to hold firm against the demands of student groups.

"We said from the beginning that we would listen, we would work, we would sit down and examine the whole framework of polices with regards to post-secondary education," he said.

"We are maintaining the increase in tuition fees. It's $1,625. It's over seven years instead of five."well finaly some move. I like the increase from 35 000$ to 45 000$ for scholarships cause it was completely stupid before. I would have gone to 50 000 but hey it's something. It's also a better scaling for the increase of the fees.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 17:32
The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country. Higher education should be less accessible? Are you living in the 1800s?

This is the same argument that was used to require kids to attend school through high school. So now it's university? What's next, masters degrees?

Sorry, what you learn at university has nothing to do w/ becoming a drone for industry nor to do w/ being adequately educated to make intelligent and informed decisions.

Your point of view is that of a pompous aristocrat from the 1800s. ;)

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 17:35
By the same token, you should realize that you don't have to go to university to become better educated.

You seem to be fixated by the idea that this is the only way to educate yourself.

It is not the only way, but it is the better way. There is things that can't be learned without some help, unless you are an A+ student. The University system is in place, we already pay for it, and it has proved to be efficient and to be an awesome investment for a country, not only in term of direct dividends, but also by increasing the quality of our services, of our companies and of our industries, which result in a better quality of life. We would be stupid to not utilize it, and we would be stupid to close the doors of our Universities to poor but very intelligent young people.

Now, back to the subject. They want to impose our students a 75% increase of the University fees (ie they are creating a new tax), while EVERYBODY in the province is aware that the administrators of our Universities are doing a really shitty job. Not only that, but it has been made public that several rectors have quit their jobs to access their $200,000-$500,000 primes, just to get re-engaged later by the same University. They also spent $500,000,000 for the "Îlot Voyageur", which is an unfinished building that they just decided to hide with giant $60,000 canvas because of how embarrassing the project is. The rector who decided to build that shit got fired, and guess what? He received a $170,000 prime.

We can go further than that. A couple weeks before they announce the increase, our magnificent government paid $200,000,000+ to buy a bunch of white boards that would not be utilized by or for the students, but only for the administrators in their very serious reunions. Wanna go further? During the same period of time than they decided to increase the University fees by 75%, which will bring around $300,000,000, they GAVE $800,000,000 to a foreign mining company so they can build roads to access future mining site where they, the company, will already be doing 84-86% of the profits. Any further? Our government gave away their rights for petrol extraction in the Anticosti Island in Quebec to another company. What did we just learned in the news? Studies has been made and there's for $3,000,000,000,000 of petrol to be extracted there... And the list goes on and on. Several government corruption proofs has been found in the last 2-3 years. Bribes, extreme expenses, name it, you'll find it.

Students has all the rights to protest like they do right now. They are the future, they are the next government. They already has been fucked really bad by the previous ones, so now they want it to stop. I don't know what are the opinions of all the other countries about how the University system should finance itself, but here, our ancestors have fought for what we have right now. They wanted our people to have better access to the University, and they succeed to obtain it. Result? We've went from a very low educated people to a nation that produced world class companies in less than a century. I know that it may seems strange for the english north american people to understand that, since this is not the model they are utilizing. But if you look in countries like Sweden, Finland, Danemark, France, Switzerland and Belgium, you'll realize that they all have low University fees.

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 17:46
Sorry, what you learn at university has nothing to do w/ becoming a drone for industry

That's exactly what the industry want. People that can produce fast and effectively, but people that don't think outside the box.


nor to do w/ being adequately educated to make intelligent and informed decisions.

Well, originally, that's exactly what an education system was suppose to do.


Your point of view is that of a pompous aristocrat from the 1800s. ;)

My point of view is the one of the majority of Québec educated young generation. Which is also the same point of view than a bunch of other countries (that I stated in me previous post).

iza
04-27-2012, 17:47
Welp that is pretty shitty. I'm in Ontario and my tuition has gone up about 30% since 5 years ago when I started, and I'm more than a little pissed off about that. But 75% is insane.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 17:51
It is not the only way, but it is the better way. There is things that can't be learned without some help, unless you are an A+ student. The University system is in place, we already pay for it, and it has proved to be efficient and to be an awesome investment for a country, not only in term of direct dividends, but also by increasing the quality of our services, of our companies and of our industries, which result in a better quality of life. We would be stupid to not utilize it, and we would be stupid to close the doors of our Universities to poor but very intelligent young people.

Now, back to the subject. They want to impose our students a 75% increase of the University fees (ie they are creating a new tax), while EVERYBODY in the province is aware that the administrators of our Universities are doing a really shitty job. Not only that, but it has been made public that several rectors have quit their jobs to access their $200,000-$500,000 primes, just to get re-engaged later by the same University. They also spent $500,000,000 for the "Îlot Voyageur", which is an unfinished building that they just decided to hide with giant $60,000 canvas because of how embarrassing the project is. The rector who decided to build that shit got fired, and guess what? He received a $170,000 prime.

We can go further than that. A couple weeks before they announce the increase, our magnificent government paid $200,000,000+ to buy a bunch of white boards that would not be utilized by or for the students, but only for the administrators in their very serious reunions. Wanna go further? During the same period of time than they decided to increase the University fees by 75%, which will bring around $300,000,000, they GAVE $800,000,000 to a foreign mining company so they can build roads to access future mining site where they, the company, will already be doing 84-86% of the profits. Any further? Our government gave away their rights for petrol extraction in the Anticosti Island in Quebec to another company. What did we just learned in the news? Studies has been made and there's for $3,000,000,000,000 of petrol to be extracted there... And the list goes on and on. Several government corruption proofs has been found in the last 2-3 years. Bribes, extreme expenses, name it, you'll find it.

Students has all the rights to protest like they do right now. They are the future, they are the next government. They already has been fucked really bad by the previous ones, so now they want it to stop. I don't know what are the opinions of all the other countries about how the University system should finance itself, but here, our ancestors have fought for what we have right now. They wanted our people to have better access to the University, and they succeed to obtain it. Result? We've went from a very low educated people to a nation that produced world class companies in less than a century. I know that it may seems strange for the english north american people to understand that, since this is not the model they are utilizing.

you sure about the 3 trillion figure? how much is 12 billion barrels? At current price 104.15$ per that's 1.250 trillion. (not counting the prices going up in future years, that could be right) That's a lot of money.


But if you look in countries like Sweden, Finland, Danemark, France, Switzerland and Belgium, you'll realize that they all have low University fees.and some of them have higher production then the US :o

BTW: the 35 000/45 000 figure earlier wasnt in the english article on cbc

here's the context of what I was talking about.
Quebec also proposes to invest an additional $ 39 million in grants and loan system, and expect no financial contribution from parents earning up to $ 45 000 per year, rather than $ 35 000 as c This is the case at present

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 18:02
you sure about the 3 trillion figure? how much is 12 billion barrels? At current price 104.15$ per that's 1.250 trillion. (not counting the prices going up in future years, that could be right) That's a lot of money.

Can't be 100% sure. That's what I read in "La Presse" a couple days ago, they were talking about 30 billion barrels. It may be 1.25 trillion. Even if it's the case, it doesn't change the fact that it was a enormous mistake.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 18:20
Can't be 100% sure. That's what I read in "La Presse" a couple days ago, they were talking about 30 billion barrels. It may be 1.25 trillion. Even if it's the case, it doesn't change the fact that it was a enormous mistake.

Ledevoir yesterday said 12.2 billion :p

Ledevoir.com article (http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/actualites-economiques/348435/ile-d-anticosti-junex-precisera-le-potentiel-petrolier)

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 18:29
Ledevoir yesterday said 12.2 billion :p

Ledevoir.com article (http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/actualites-economiques/348435/ile-d-anticosti-junex-precisera-le-potentiel-petrolier)

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/affaires/actualite-economique/201106/29/01-4413786-petrole-a-anticosti-3000-milliards-echappent-a-hydro.php

crazy journalists :P

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 18:48
That's exactly what the industry want. People that can produce fast and effectively, but people that don't think outside the box.

Uh, that's the exact opposite of what the education system you love is supposed to be producing. Just fyi.


Well, originally, that's exactly what an education system was suppose to do.

Yes, the education system up through high school. Not college/univ.


My point of view is the one of the majority of Québec educated young generation. Which is also the same point of view than a bunch of other countries (that I stated in me previous post).

That's b/c your education failed you prior if you feel unready to make good decisions after high school.

Shaehl
04-27-2012, 19:02
It is not the only way, but it is the better way. There is things that can't be learned without some help, unless you are an A+ student. The University system is in place, we already pay for it, and it has proved to be efficient and to be an awesome investment for a country, not only in term of direct dividends, but also by increasing the quality of our services, of our companies and of our industries, which result in a better quality of life. We would be stupid to not utilize it, and we would be stupid to close the doors of our Universities to poor but very intelligent young people.

Now, back to the subject. They want to impose our students a 75% increase of the University fees (ie they are creating a new tax), while EVERYBODY in the province is aware that the administrators of our Universities are doing a really shitty job. Not only that, but it has been made public that several rectors have quit their jobs to access their $200,000-$500,000 primes, just to get re-engaged later by the same University. They also spent $500,000,000 for the "Îlot Voyageur", which is an unfinished building that they just decided to hide with giant $60,000 canvas because of how embarrassing the project is. The rector who decided to build that shit got fired, and guess what? He received a $170,000 prime.

We can go further than that. A couple weeks before they announce the increase, our magnificent government paid $200,000,000+ to buy a bunch of white boards that would not be utilized by or for the students, but only for the administrators in their very serious reunions. Wanna go further? During the same period of time than they decided to increase the University fees by 75%, which will bring around $300,000,000, they GAVE $800,000,000 to a foreign mining company so they can build roads to access future mining site where they, the company, will already be doing 84-86% of the profits. Any further? Our government gave away their rights for petrol extraction in the Anticosti Island in Quebec to another company. What did we just learned in the news? Studies has been made and there's for $3,000,000,000,000 of petrol to be extracted there... And the list goes on and on. Several government corruption proofs has been found in the last 2-3 years. Bribes, extreme expenses, name it, you'll find it.

Students has all the rights to protest like they do right now. They are the future, they are the next government. They already has been fucked really bad by the previous ones, so now they want it to stop. I don't know what are the opinions of all the other countries about how the University system should finance itself, but here, our ancestors have fought for what we have right now. They wanted our people to have better access to the University, and they succeed to obtain it. Result? We've went from a very low educated people to a nation that produced world class companies in less than a century. I know that it may seems strange for the english north american people to understand that, since this is not the model they are utilizing. But if you look in countries like Sweden, Finland, Danemark, France, Switzerland and Belgium, you'll realize that they all have low University fees.

This is what happens when universities are merely an arm of the State. Since the Ivory Elite have absolutely no risk involved in the use of their unlimited government money inefficiency, mismanagement and corruption are inevitable.

Also, I like how you are complaining about the university fees being a "tax" when in your socialist system the universities are funded entirely by taxes anyway. Isn't the socialist manta supposed to be, "we gladly pay these taxes in order to receive the wonderful benefits that are obtained when government decides how to use our money for us"?

So why are you complaining? There is corruption and incompetence, but you are directly subsidizing it with your votes for Statism. The 50 cents a day (poor souls, 50 cents? Outrageous!) is simply part of the taxes which supposedly make your society prosper. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 19:32
Uh, that's the exact opposite of what the education system you love is supposed to be producing. Just fyi.

That's what the industry want, not the students nor the teachers. Go reread what I said about it, retard.


Yes, the education system up through high school. Not college/univ.

What kind of country we would be if our best thinkers would be people with high school degrees... The bridge is about to fall sir, let's duck tape it!


That's b/c your education failed you prior if you feel unready to make good decisions after high school.

I see that you're a bright one. Some nation think that it is good for their population to be more educated, to have more intellectual resources, so they decide to invest in the Universities. How is this a proof of an education fail?

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 19:49
Also, I like how you are complaining about the university fees being a "tax" when in your socialist system the universities are funded entirely by taxes anyway. Isn't the socialist manta supposed to be, "we gladly pay these taxes in order to receive the wonderful benefits that are obtained when government decides how to use our money for us"?

Am I complaining about the taxes? I understand what it is, and why it's needed in our system, and I'm ok with it if our funds are well managed, which is not the case here. I'm complaining about the fact that they are raising it without promising better services, while we know how they already fuck us with the current founds they have. Take note that while our system has alot of socialism component in it (which I totally approve), our current government isn't socialist. They are managing it like a bunch of monkeys.


So why are you complaining? There is corruption and incompetence, but you are directly subsidizing it with your votes for Statism. The 50 cents a day (poor souls, 50 cents? Outrageous!) is simply part of the taxes which supposedly make your society prosper. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Let's just kneel in front of the deciders, and let them take their decisions even if it means that we'll have to work more for them to spend our money on stupid things and steal us of a good part of it. There's no in-between. It's either you are a socialism and you get fucked, or you're a capitalist and you get fucked. Let's all just get fucked and enjoy it, without protesting, like a bunch of stupid sheeps.

Also, where the fuck do you take that 50 cents a day from?

Krag
04-27-2012, 19:50
This is what happens when universities are merely an arm of the State. Since the Ivory Elite have absolutely no risk involved in the use of their unlimited government money inefficiency, mismanagement and corruption are inevitable.

Also, I like how you are complaining about the university fees being a "tax" when in your socialist system the universities are funded entirely by taxes anyway. Isn't the socialist manta supposed to be, "we gladly pay these taxes in order to receive the wonderful benefits that are obtained when government decides how to use our money for us"?

So why are you complaining? There is corruption and incompetence, but you are directly subsidizing it with your votes for Statism. The 50 cents a day (poor souls, 50 cents? Outrageous!) is simply part of the taxes which supposedly make your society prosper. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is what lefties never seem to get. Everything run by govt is at BEST done inefficiently...at worst it just turns to complete shit. But since they HATE private corporations, their participation is a non-starter, and they'll dredge up a few instances of private malfeasance (usually aided and abetted by corrupt officials) as examples of why nothing can be contracted to private.

In Quebec the public unions are heavily entrenched against private expansion, and they are supported by the political parties they own from their dues being funelled to said parties. They are also willing to fight hard (harder than students even, in the streets) to maintain their gold plated, unaccountable privilidges, even though it is a drain on society.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 20:01
Sorry, what you learn at university has nothing to do w/ becoming a drone for industry


That's exactly what the industry want. People that can produce fast and effectively, but people that don't think outside the box.


Uh, that's the exact opposite of what the education system you love is supposed to be producing. Just fyi.


That's what the industry want, not the students nor the teachers. Go reread what I said about it, retard.

Would you care to try this in French?


What kind of country we would be if our best thinkers would be people with high school degrees... The bridge is about to fall sir, let's duck tape it!

How does "everyone does not need to go to college" become "our best thinkers won't go to college"? Got logic?


I see that you're a bright one. Some nation think that it is good for their population to be more educated, to have more intellectual resources, so they decide to invest in the Universities. How is this a proof of an education fail?

You obviously have trouble with English so let me re-state:

If you are ill-equipped to make intelligent and informed decisions in life having graduated from high school, it does not mean that you should have gone to college/univ., it means that your education system through high school has failed.

More education for the sake of more education is pointless. To pretend that everyone needs the maximum education possible in order to be a productive member of society is ludicrous.

DaveStunTueur
04-27-2012, 20:40
Would you care to try this in French?

You forgot a quote man, start from here. (Would YOU care to try it in a different language other than your primary one? I guess not). So let's go :


The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country. Higher education should be less accessible? Are you living in the 1800s?

And you answered :


Sorry, what you learn at university has nothing to do w/ becoming a drone for industry

Which was a pretty retarded post from the start, since I never said it was... I use it as an argument to say that the original goal of University was to create thinkers, not drones. Fail more please.


How does "everyone does not need to go to college" become "our best thinkers won't go to college"? Got logic?

You obviously have trouble with English so let me re-state:

If you are ill-equipped to make intelligent and informed decisions in life having graduated from high school, it does not mean that you should have gone to college/univ., it means that your education system through high school has failed.

More education for the sake of more education is pointless. To pretend that everyone needs the maximum education possible in order to be a productive member of society is ludicrous.

I never said that everyone needs the maximum education possible. What I'm saying is that people who want to go to University should be able to, no matter what is their social "class".

For some reason that was totally out of context with the OP, you and Damedius pulled out the argument that people don't need University studies to have a good life or to be able to take decisions (which I agree with... but it is just out of context with the OP and the student protestations...).

There's a big difference between taking intelligent and informed decision in your life, and taking intelligent and informed decision as a nation. And when I say as a nation, I'm not talking only about the deciders, but also about the people under them (or over them, depends how you see it). The more a people is educated, the more successful it will be. You seems to think that after high school, people has nothing to learn that would help them and their nation to become better. I see 0 reason why having a more educated people is a bad thing in itself. Just compare nations with bad or with no Universities with developed countries, the difference is huge.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 21:36
Yes. The money he use is going to his kids too assuming they decide to. Here, public or private doesnt mean shit because even private schools are funded at 55% by the government. I dont know where you live but in Québec a lot of people live in remote places, having a car is necessary. (Not in Montréal, though, let's be honest)

So they sell the car and move to Montreal, a rather cheap city to live in.


The UQAM (Université du Québec à Montréal, largest french university in the world)
wasted 500 millions for an unfinished real estate project. Universities are very poorly managed just like school boards.

Excellent. That university would fail, to be replaced by a university managed to competent people. To uplift universities managed by people with IQs barely above that of apes is not intelligent.



The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country. Higher education should be less accessible? Are you living in the 1800s?

Someone with the will to learn & improve themselves will find the means on their own; regardless of the obstacles in their way. They may not have a diploma to prove they're in the smarty pants club, but they are educated nonetheless.

If they want to get that piece of paper that proves it, that's great. Let them save up for it, and get it that way. Or, take out a serious loan they actually have to pay back without delay, without special hand holding terms.

StainlessSteelRat
04-27-2012, 21:46
Which was a pretty retarded post from the start, since I never said it was... I use it as an argument to say that the original goal of University was to create thinkers, not drones. Fail more please.

So why did you bring up the drones? It had no bearing on the conversation which is what I clearly stated in my first quote on the matter.


I never said that everyone needs the maximum education possible. What I'm saying is that people who want to go to University should be able to, no matter what is their social "class".

No, what you said was:

Originally Posted by DaveStunTueur View Post
The value... The real and primary goal of a University is to educate people, not to form them to be machines ready to work for the industry. I know that nowadays, money means everything in the eye of some close-minded drones, but if you have even an ounce of intelligence, you would understand that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country.

Do it for the good of the country. Educate everyone (as many as possible).

What your dumbass can't comprehend is that the more it is subsidized, the more gov't pays from taxes, the more universities will charge. University was more available to poorer people in the past prior to gov't involvement than it is now.


For some reason that was totally out of context with the OP, you and Damedius pulled out the argument that people don't need University studies to have a good life or to be able to take decisions (which I agree with... but it is just out of context with the OP and the student protestations...).

It's not out of context at all given your misconceived notion that that having a better educated population is good not only for each individuals, but for a whole country requires a university education. Your entire position of support for the students is based on your belief that it's their right and good for the country. The argument we "pulled" is that it is not.


There's a big difference between taking intelligent and informed decision in your life, and taking intelligent and informed decision as a nation. And when I say as a nation, I'm not talking only about the deciders, but also about the people under them (or over them, depends how you see it). The more a people is educated, the more successful it will be. You seems to think that after high school, people has nothing to learn that would help them and their nation to become better. I see 0 reason why having a more educated people is a bad thing in itself. Just compare nations with bad or with no Universities with developed countries, the difference is huge.

Again, misconceived notion that college/university is necessary to achieve an informed populace.... :bang:

At least argue the issue if you want to persist. Make a point as to why college/univ is needed. No one is arguing that a dumb population is better ffs.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-27-2012, 22:11
Excellent. That university would fail, to be replaced by a university managed to competent people. To uplift universities managed by people with IQs barely above that of apes is not intelligent.

Do you even know the context? I'd suggest you learn about it.

Death's Chill
04-27-2012, 22:13
Do you even know the context? I'd suggest you learn about it.

You said it was to build something, which failed miserably. That's an incompetent move, business wise and in general.

If they can't afford the hit, they fail, and will eventually be replaced by someone to fill the void since the demand is still there.

Ragnarok Delrhe
04-28-2012, 03:39
couldnt find an article quickly so I just google translated it.


The idea of ​​banning wearing a mask in the event made ​​its way in Montreal and in Ottawa.

The Parliamentary Committee of Justice is studying Bill C-309 - An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity concealment) - and hear its first witnesses next week, May 1.

Alberta Conservative MP Blake Richards filed the bill that adds to the Criminal Code ban to cover her face during an illegal demonstration.

The member has the support of his Conservative colleagues and the Liberal caucus. He believes that his plan could be adopted before the end of the year. The New Democratic Party, until now, has refused to support him.

Richards accuses the NDP of sulking his initiative. In the House of Commons, Friday morning, he also shouted at the official opposition. "Given the riots in Montreal, the NDP will he reconsider its dangerous position and help protect businesses and residents of Montreal, Quebec and throughout Canada," he said during the period reserved members' statements.

New Democrats emphasize that a clause of the Criminal Code already prohibits wearing a mask with intent to commit an illegal act.

"We want to analyze the bill from all angles, including whether it complies with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms," said Françoise Boivin, NDP spokesman on justice.

A similar debate takes place currently in the City of Montreal. The Commission of Public Safety of the City, at the request of Mayor Gérald Tremblay is studying its options and may recommend the adoption of a law banning the wearing of the mask.About freaking time. Should have happened what 2 or 3 years ago.

Vanno
04-28-2012, 04:53
I see the problem being the ever increasing certificationization of every fucking aspect of life. In the near future, there will be a breathing certification people that want to breathe go through.

Damedius
04-28-2012, 11:33
I see the problem being the ever increasing certificationization of every fucking aspect of life. In the near future, there will be a breathing certification people that want to breathe go through.

Along with a tax on the CO2 you emit while breathing.