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MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 06:06
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/05/15/blackwater-founder-assembling-secret-mercenary-army-for-uae/

Blackwater, in which Donald Rumsfeld is now a leading member of, is apparently "assembling a secret army for the UAE". The UAE is of course, an oligarchy comprised of a wealthy elite who owns a fuckton of oil, real estate, casinos and etc.

Being a small nation, they lack a military. This is similar to other gulf states as they often need foreign mercenaries(Bahrainis hired Pakistanis to mow down Bahrainis).

But this is a whole new level of fucked. They are using soldiers from troubled regions of the world to be regimentalized and having the task of carrying military operations.

This was heavy in the Bush years, some 100,000 or so "contractors" being paid 1k a day was pretty well known. They were usually from Latin American paramilitaries or ex SF. But from the role of "security interests" to now direct national defense is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not surprised, the PMC has increased in scope, nature, wealth and power since Bush. I for one expect armies of the future to be a purely mercenary army as opposed to an indirectly mercenary army.

How do you think armies will play out in the future? International trade and globalization, nuclear weapons and capitalism in general remedies the need for conflict between major players. The rise of corporations in power, shape and structure, supported by governments, is occurring as well.

TumorousGrowth
05-16-2011, 06:09
sounds like that mediocre comedy "War Inc" with my mans, John Cusack.

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 06:14
sounds like that mediocre comedy "War Inc" with my mans, John Cusack.

I am going to watch this film.

Also in part becuase enjoyed John Cusack in 1408 and me thinking he was Jim Belushi.

Gloomrender
05-16-2011, 06:29
Strawberry?

Falokis
05-16-2011, 06:32
I am going to watch this film.

Also in part becuase enjoyed John Cusack in 1408 and me thinking he was Jim Belushi.Cusack's early work such as 'Better Off Dead' or 'One Crazy Summer' were far superior to his more recent roles.

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 06:38
Cusack's early work such as 'Better Off Dead' or 'One Crazy Summer' were far superior to his more recent roles.

He's past his prime as a star but he's till pretty cool

On Topic:

My theory is that the so called antipiracy measures is so that the UAE and its corrupt government and oligarchy would use this army to remove any security threats just like Bahrain did using mercenaries.

In the face of democracy, reformation and revolution that spread like wildfire, they will use a corrupt and morally-non-existent corporation like Xe(Blackwater) to shoot down a few civilians. Blackwater had practice in Iraq in killing off a few civilians, so they have experience in that regard.

If anybody watched the short lived series Jericho, when they use a PMC as the protagonist, its a not too far off future for when we might have to put up with them in the face of a dismantling and increasingly corporatized nation.

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 06:50
Strawberry?

No.

I was a user named Gaal from years ago. I lurk here from time to time but decided to remake my account.

xpiher
05-16-2011, 07:39
Strawberry?

Good one! Yes, thats who this is.

raja
05-16-2011, 10:16
No.

I was a user named Gaal from years ago. I lurk here from time to time but decided to remake my account.

strawberry?

sc0r0wnz
05-16-2011, 10:36
Didn't you say you went away?

Bissen
05-16-2011, 11:03
The ghost of Strawberry takes many unlikely forms and have haunted these boards since his demise to the cult of mods.

Kusghuul
05-16-2011, 12:23
Afaik, Strawberry was just an incarnation of an earlier Forumfaller, possibly pre-08. Anyone able to verify?

tehWise
05-16-2011, 15:55
The UAE sucks. Beyond all the main reasons they suck, they have forced labor camps with foreigners they recruit with stories of grandeur and promises of high wages only to confiscate their passports when they arrive and make them work in 120 degree heat with minimal food and unclean water.



Migrants, particularly migrant workers, make up a majority (approximately 80%) of the resident population of the UAE, and account for 90% of its workforce.[6] They lack rights associated with citizenship and face a variety of restrictions on their rights as workers.

Migrants, mostly of South Asian origin, constitute for 42.5% of the UAE’s workforce and are subject to a range of human rights abuses. Workers typically arrive in debt to recruitment agents from home countries and upon arrival are often made to sign a new contract in English or Arabic which pays them less than had originally been agreed. Visa and travel costs are typically added on to the original debt, and thus within hours of their arrival, workers often find that their debt-repayment time has increased significantly, possibly by years.



I can imagine a number of reasons they would want to protect their emirate lifestyle with a military.

Weeking
05-16-2011, 16:04
This was heavy in the Bush years, some 100,000 or so "contractors" being paid 1k a day was pretty well known. They were usually from Latin American paramilitaries or ex SF. But from the role of "security interests" to now direct national defense is absolutely ridiculous.


Seriously, you think governments are going to pay that kind of money in the long run. Bush did it since he didn't have approval from the government to fund the number soldiers he wanted in Iraq. Using foreigners though is smart since you're not taking them out of your own economy and might not have to pay for them when they get injured. They should rather make an arrangement with countries that have lots of poor people, f ex India and China to get cheap soldiers and make it much easier to recruit from those countries (by making it legal for them to join and allow your government to set up recruitment centers there.

Krag
05-16-2011, 16:46
Seriously, you think governments are going to pay that kind of money in the long run. Bush did it since he didn't have approval from the government to fund the number soldiers he wanted in Iraq. Using foreigners though is smart since you're not taking them out of your own economy and might not have to pay for them when they get injured. They should rather make an arrangement with countries that have lots of poor people, f ex India and China to get cheap soldiers and make it much easier to recruit from those countries (by making it legal for them to join and allow your government to set up recruitment centers there.

LOL they wouldnt not recruit Indians...they are useless. There is a pretty big difference in quality between an Indian peasent firing his AK47 from the hip and a Delta Force commando, and you get what you pay for.

The high salaries they pay some mercs are because:

1) That is the value of those guys, we are talking ex-special ops guys, elites like SEALs, Delta Force, Ranger, etc. When in the service they are paid like 40k when they are worth A LOT more on the open job market. Not just as mercs but they can pull in 6 figures easy just working as bodyguards or something.

2) Also when they are paid as contracters it's not as outrageous as you make it seem, cuz the govt has realized a lot of savings over someone in the service. Doesn't have to cover the mercernary/contracters' benefits, medical, continued training and other logistical costs.

The question is, once a SEAL finishes his training how long should he have to work for the govt? I dont know what their contract looks like, I am sure he is obligated to do some tours, but he cant be forced to work for the govt forever. Like any other person, eventually they become "free agents" at which point people want to pay them A LOT more for their skills than their 40k govt salary. Even if the govt wants to keep them they will have to. It's not totally unfair.

Blackwater is hardly comparable to a military, the biggest difference is they dont have many heavy weapons. They are more like an employment agency for highly trained soldiers who have done their service to their nation and now want to make a little scratch with the skills they dedicated most of their life to acquiring. Is it wrong? I dunno. Should these guys be selflessly serving their nation their entire life, at low pay? No other profession is asked to do that... The US and other western govt does hire them, so its like they are quitting the US to go work for Col. Ghaddafi. They moved to the UAE because they needed to get out of reach of the out of control American legal system (lots of companies are doing this).

Anyways, I am not trying to shill for them, I just think it is a very complicated issue and there is more going on than BUSH = EVIL.

B. Greymoor
05-16-2011, 17:29
Future world militaries will be less about soldiers and more about high-tech drones and what not.
We've seen those drones capable of survailencing an entire country, wouldn't be supprised if they're not working on simular drones capable of taking people out from miles in the sky with deadly precision.

I'd predict in the future it'd be less about highly trained soldiers and more about who's got the most tech. at their disposal.

Krag
05-16-2011, 17:53
Until they invent decent power armor!

radicalhit
05-16-2011, 18:56
Until they invent decent power armor!

It'd be awesome to see powered suits and battlerifles in the battlefield.

Hydrogenium
05-16-2011, 20:06
No powered suits, or mercenaries for that reason. Robots and drones (UAVs) all the way. UAVs can pull 12gs and above easily, humans can not go over 9g reliably. UAV's don't get tired, don't disobey orders, don't require disability care and pay, don't have rights, don't have moral issues etc.
The advantages are there to see by anyone, the choice is obvious to the powerful elite.

Hydrogenium
05-16-2011, 20:17
Anyways, I am not trying to shill for them, I just think it is a very complicated issue and there is more going on than BUSH = EVIL.

The whole business of taking life (aka war) is nothing but a regretful failure of the human spirit, a direct consequence of stupidity and greed. Please don't kid yourself into believing that there's anything moral, decent or for that reason excusable about war.

Most of these so called "soldiers" have never been in a real fight, where only 10% make it. They never had to fight against all odds so their kids can eat or their wives avoid rape and murder.

Their sole experience of war was murdering individuals who were no match in training and equipment, most of the times with kill ratios hovering around 1 to 1000. The occasional death of a teammate is viewed almost romantically under these circumstances.

And this discussion excludes the mentally ill, the sociopaths and lunatics who join simply because they enjoy causing pain and suffering.

Men and women who have been in a real violent struggle, don't view war as romantic or a "business". Pathetic.

MrBungle
05-16-2011, 20:18
Hopefully we run out of oil before all that technology comes out.

tehWise
05-16-2011, 20:34
I think wars of the future will value capturing things intact, will use advanced systems for information gathering, will deploy viruses either virtual or biological(genetically engineered). For virtual, we already saw the use of the US's stuxnet virus against Iran. I'm sure that's only the beginning.

Controlling an enemies information flow, influencing financial systems, etc can be more destructive than destroying a building. Antagonizing social unrest in volatile regions is cheaper than invading to overthrow someone we don't like.

They've already got remote controlled hummingbirds and small devices they could use to assassinate people (explode, shoot, poison gas, etc). As technology improves these could be long range and far more effective/stealth than any helicopter filled with special forces, and much easier to deny.

They just need to know where the enemy are, preferably in real time. I think they'll have both software (adware, viruses, botnet) harvesting information as well as proprietary deep packet scanning hardware employed around the world. The real hitch will be interpreting and extracting meaningful data in real time globally. Then acting on it in any of many ways, unrelated to shooting bullets.

Krag
05-16-2011, 21:05
The whole business of taking life (aka war) is nothing but a regretful failure of the human spirit, a direct consequence of stupidity and greed. Please don't kid yourself into believing that there's anything moral, decent or for that reason excusable about war.

Most of these so called "soldiers" have never been in a real fight, where only 10% make it. They never had to fight against all odds so their kids can eat or their wives avoid rape and murder.

Their sole experience of war was murdering individuals who were no match in training and equipment, most of the times with kill ratios hovering around 1 to 1000. The occasional death of a teammate is viewed almost romantically under these circumstances.

And this discussion excludes the mentally ill, the sociopaths and lunatics who join simply because they enjoy causing pain and suffering.

Men and women who have been in a real violent struggle, don't view war as romantic or a "business". Pathetic.


Yes that's all very nice and mostly true, but wasn't really the discussion... We all know war is bad, and why it is bad, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens, and it's better that we are the ones who have 1000:1 kill ratios than some insane hezbollah, ghadafi or north korean fuckers.

Napalm_Enema
05-16-2011, 21:30
Strawberry?

Man you read my mind.

All these prattling fucking threads and shit. Strawberry for sure. :lmao:

Eyrothath
05-16-2011, 21:43
Future military imo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vF_VLZotWc)

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 21:51
The high salaries they pay some mercs are because:

1) That is the value of those guys, we are talking ex-special ops guys, elites like SEALs, Delta Force, Ranger, etc. When in the service they are paid like 40k when they are worth A LOT more on the open job market. Not just as mercs but they can pull in 6 figures easy just working as bodyguards or something.

The majority of mercenaries come from Latin American paramilitaries like Colombia, or in some cases South Africa. They have no fucking worth in the job market because there isn't a regular, natural demand for killers.

The 1k a day is an artificial demand made by the MIC. They are worthless if it wasn't for corrupt governments and regimes prone to war.


2) Also when they are paid as contracters it's not as outrageous as you make it seem, cuz the govt has realized a lot of savings over someone in the service. Doesn't have to cover the mercernary/contracters' benefits, medical, continued training and other logistical costs.

They make 200-300k a year. That's more than a doctor for a war zone security guard. Added up, that's still a fuckton more than whatever a army grunt gets paid.


The question is, once a SEAL finishes his training how long should he have to work for the govt? I dont know what their contract looks like, I am sure he is obligated to do some tours, but he cant be forced to work for the govt forever. Like any other person, eventually they become "free agents" at which point people want to pay them A LOT more for their skills than their 40k govt salary. Even if the govt wants to keep them they will have to. It's not totally unfair.

Alright tell them to choose another vocation. They are doing dishonest business with dishonest governments, including our own.


Blackwater is hardly comparable to a military, the biggest difference is they dont have many heavy weapons. They are more like an employment agency for highly trained soldiers who have done their service to their nation and now want to make a little scratch with the skills they dedicated most of their life to acquiring. Is it wrong? I dunno. Should these guys be selflessly serving their nation their entire life, at low pay? No other profession is asked to do that... The US and other western govt does hire them, so its like they are quitting the US to go work for Col. Ghaddafi. They moved to the UAE because they needed to get out of reach of the out of control American legal system (lots of companies are doing this).

They have helicopters, they have regular training, they have a fuckton of men. I guess third world countries don't have militaries by your logic.

Honestly, they are paving the way for a fucked up thing in the end. Your argument I assume is that yeah, they are soldiers with skills, let them do fuck all.

Yes, indeed, we can't control the world. let's recognize them for what they are, thugs on the corporate dole for a corporation corrupt as fuck and in bed with fucked up governments.


Anyways, I am not trying to shill for them, I just think it is a very complicated issue and there is more going on than BUSH = EVIL.

No one's saying that. At all.

Forumfall is a bit more complex then Fox News comments sections you probably are use to.

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 21:56
Seriously, you think governments are going to pay that kind of money in the long run. [QUOTE]

Governments with a corrupt as fuck core and little regard for debt do. Nobody gives a shit about debt anymore.

If you didn't notice, they like to spend alot of money on retarded things, like the bailouts. They likewise like to spend on even stupider things like wars or a super beefed military.

[QUOTE]Bush did it since he didn't have approval from the government to fund the number soldiers he wanted in Iraq. Using foreigners though is smart since you're not taking them out of your own economy and might not have to pay for them when they get injured.

No, Bush did it because not enough people wanted to fight in Iraq save useful idiots. They had hundreds of thousands of contractors, alot from the most horrendous paramilitaries that routinely murder people in their own countries(El Salvador, Guatamala, etc. coincidentally guys we trained)


They should rather make an arrangement with countries that have lots of poor people, f ex India and China to get cheap soldiers and make it much easier to recruit from those countries (by making it legal for them to join and allow your government to set up recruitment centers there.

That defeats the whole idea of a national army. The middle ages use to do that alot, and they had mercenaries that would just overthrow the country they work for afterwards and establish themselves as rulers.

Napalm_Enema
05-16-2011, 21:57
[QUOTE=Weeking;4961847]Seriously, you think governments are going to pay that kind of money in the long run. [QUOTE]

Governments with a corrupt as fuck core and little regard for debt do. Nobody gives a shit about debt anymore.

If you didn't notice, they like to spend alot of money on retarded things, like the bailouts. They likewise like to spend on even stupider things like wars or a super beefed military.



No, Bush did it because not enough people wanted to fight in Iraq save useful idiots. They had hundreds of thousands of contractors, alot from the most horrendous paramilitaries that routinely murder people in their own countries(El Salvador, Guatamala, etc. coincidentally guys we trained)



That defeats the whole idea of a national army. The middle ages use to do that alot, and they had mercenaries that would just overthrow the country they work for afterwards and establish themselves as rulers.

You tell em Strawberry, you tell em' good. :ninja:

MichaelNyman
05-16-2011, 21:59
It seems you cannot offer radical anti-military and foreign intervention views without being called this Strawberry fellow.

The forumfall of past when it wasn't as populated with conservatives and everyone was a libertarian, anti-military, anti-foreign intervention was the norm.

Anyone here who calls themselves a libertarian and reads libertarian news thats not Reason magazine or Cato Institute(garbage ones) like Lew Rockwell, Ludwig Von Mises, Antiwar and others would have my views.

shock223
05-16-2011, 22:22
Strawberry?

perhaps but unlikely, the topics are the same but strawberry's style is more in your face than this guy's.

Silverhandorder
05-16-2011, 23:43
I don't particularly think merc armies are very effective. As a standing army mercs would be a mess since they are much more expensive to maintain.

As far as special ops they wouldn't be that bad of a choice.

Middle East has a growing insurgency movement that was started with OBL. Open confrontation will come sooner or later and there will be a lot of blood shed.

pZombie
05-17-2011, 00:14
The future military will be composed of space based lasers and self replicating programmable modular nano killer bots, invisible to the eye and which can combine themselves into bigger structures depending on the size of their target, controlled by an army of geeky korean bottle peeing RTS players on their gaming laptops from within a bunker somewhere on a non registered island near the northpole.

Rimayven
05-17-2011, 03:32
I miss that StrawberryClock guy too.

OT: No comment.

Rachsucht
05-17-2011, 04:17
So, MichaelNyman, what do you think of Noam Chomsky?

Jackhowitzer
05-17-2011, 04:23
LOL they wouldnt not recruit Indians...they are useless. There is a pretty big difference in quality between an Indian peasent firing his AK47 from the hip and a Delta Force commando, and you get what you pay for.

The high salaries they pay some mercs are because:

1) That is the value of those guys, we are talking ex-special ops guys, elites like SEALs, Delta Force, Ranger, etc. When in the service they are paid like 40k when they are worth A LOT more on the open job market. Not just as mercs but they can pull in 6 figures easy just working as bodyguards or something.

2) Also when they are paid as contracters it's not as outrageous as you make it seem, cuz the govt has realized a lot of savings over someone in the service. Doesn't have to cover the mercernary/contracters' benefits, medical, continued training and other logistical costs.

The question is, once a SEAL finishes his training how long should he have to work for the govt? I dont know what their contract looks like, I am sure he is obligated to do some tours, but he cant be forced to work for the govt forever. Like any other person, eventually they become "free agents" at which point people want to pay them A LOT more for their skills than their 40k govt salary. Even if the govt wants to keep them they will have to. It's not totally unfair.

Blackwater is hardly comparable to a military, the biggest difference is they dont have many heavy weapons. They are more like an employment agency for highly trained soldiers who have done their service to their nation and now want to make a little scratch with the skills they dedicated most of their life to acquiring. Is it wrong? I dunno. Should these guys be selflessly serving their nation their entire life, at low pay? No other profession is asked to do that... The US and other western govt does hire them, so its like they are quitting the US to go work for Col. Ghaddafi. They moved to the UAE because they needed to get out of reach of the out of control American legal system (lots of companies are doing this).

Anyways, I am not trying to shill for them, I just think it is a very complicated issue and there is more going on than BUSH = EVIL.



lol I had a friend that was working for Blackwater, there's some good people, and there's a lot of dumbasses, a guy turned around with a loaded gun and almost accidentally shot him (my friend) in the face, to describe one incident. Seal contracts are generally 6 years active 2 years reserve. You can extend it if you want. I'm not sure what you mean by "how long should a Seal work for the government once he finishes he training", I just skimmed your post though. If you're a Seal, you can expect to do some tours, some Seals haven't seen combat and exited the service though, at least from my understanding.

nate4449
05-17-2011, 04:53
Maybe THIS will flush him out!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Noam_Chomsky

Silverhandorder
05-17-2011, 04:59
Maybe THIS will flush him out!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Noam_Chomsky

Man I can disagree with that shit. Which means that his spidey sense must definably be tingling.

Rachsucht
05-17-2011, 05:06
Maybe THIS will flush him out!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Noam_Chomsky


Consevapedia?!?!?!

What the.... the existence of this almost makes me want to vote for Obama in 2012.

MichaelNyman
05-17-2011, 07:17
Maybe THIS will flush him out!

http://www.conservapedia.com/Noam_Chomsky

Pretty interesting article. I read conservapedia for the lols, particularly involving science/evolution/global warming.

Its the same standard argument/ideas you hear on Yahoo comments or Tea Party facebook comments or something.

The internet has its own brand of strange politics.

But again, I am not Strawberry. I read his posts here and there, seems interesting and I learned alot. But I am more right-wing and libertarian in my views.