PDA

View Full Version : That level cap...



silenzer
12-12-2010, 22:39
Now, from time to time I ask myself... what the hell was Aventurine thinking? Why did they let people create characters with high levels in almost every class and weapon? Noobs face a devastating grind time ahead, unless they want to face goblins all day long.
I mean, wtf? How couldn't you have thought of this?
What about the level cap I heard about? That you could only level so many levels? I know this game was supposed to be the definition of freedom, but come on, this is completely game breaking for beginners. I realize that the grinding ahead isn't HOLEY FUCKING MASSIVE, but it's still VERY boring. Can you see how easy it is to start in WoW (yes I'm comparing DF to WoW, this hate on WoW is coming a little fanatic). Can you see how successful WoW is? I'm not saying DF has to be exactly like WoW, just that the learning curve is like in WoW. With the level cap and very little difference in weapons and armor, skill would mean everything. Poof! A million subscriptions right there. Few beginners = little money. Little money = poor performance. Poor performance = loss of old players. Loss of old players = even less money. Even less money = BANKRUPT! And why is some armor better than other armor? Darkfall would be a WHOLE LLLOOOT more popular if it were EASY to get armor and weapons, and old players wouldn't have better armor than beginners. With a level cap and no difference in armor or weapons, skill would be EVERYTHING. NO GRINDING WHATSOEVER. And with the learning curve, beginners wouldn't give up after the first week like all of my friends have.

It's been so long that wiping the servers will only sweep all experienced players from the game.

You have failed, Aventurine. This game could have been huge.

DAA KAPUTTMACHA
12-12-2010, 22:42
You seem to be a bit traumatized regarding being bankrupt due to your heritage.

bobii
12-12-2010, 22:42
oh damn, this polearm is getting boring... i guess i gotta waste a few days to get another melee mastery again.

and if i wanna switch back to polearm, i gotta grind it up again... daamn sounds so fun.

silenzer
12-12-2010, 22:45
You seem to be a bit traumatized regarding being bankrupt due to your heritage.

lol

Lumanil
12-12-2010, 22:49
oh damn, this polearm is getting boring... i guess i gotta waste a few days to get another melee mastery again.

and if i wanna switch back to polearm, i gotta grind it up again... daamn sounds so fun.

/THIS

Most people don't realize that a skill-cap you increase the grind and not lessen it.
Every time AV would patch something, people would start grinding again to get the flavour of the month.

silenzer
12-12-2010, 22:59
/THIS

Most people don't realize that a skill-cap you increase the grind and not lessen it.
Every time AV would patch something, people would start grinding again to get the flavour of the month.

If Av had a level cap, they would of course suit their improvements thinking about the level cap. For an example, they could make it so that people unlearn a weapon mastery and then spend money for a certain amount of skill in another weapon mastery, like 2000 gold for the first 15 levels, or I don't know, you know where I'm going with this.

How does not having a skill-cap lessen the grind? Yes, maybe for those who have no life and mass-grind the first two months and then have fun afterwards. What about beginners? Do you ever stop to think about them? Why do the no-lifers get to have all the fun? Why can't a casual player with equal skill but doesn't have the time to grind compete with players who do have the time to grind?

Edit: I thought Darkfall was the game of freedom; where you wouldn't have to have to grind and have expensive equipment to be competitive. I thought that was the reason people left WoW for. Skill doesn't matter near as much as it should.

TNoD
12-12-2010, 23:01
Wtf people, there is no level/skill cap.

Lol.

silenzer
12-12-2010, 23:03
I know. Read the damn thread.

TNoD
12-12-2010, 23:05
I know. Read the damn thread.

No thank you. Skill/Level cap is retarded especially in this game.

silenzer
12-12-2010, 23:07
In the thread I'm trying to explain to you why it is not retarded and why it is necessary. Don't be a no-brain fanboy plx

melipone
12-12-2010, 23:30
Theres more than 1 way to implement a cap.

Hardcap like Ultima Online. You end up with a set amount of templates but its easier for devs to balance. People have key goals in sight as they level, and don't feel the need to grind to stay competitive as there're fewer things needed. I didn't hit max with any character in UO but I didn't actually spend my time grinding either. The game was just plain fun, and there were tons of goals that didn't involve "leveling a toon"

Softcap with skill decay. Basically whichever skills you use often stay up, least used ones go down. I think this is just too much hassle given it doesn't really have much benefit over a decent hardcap

Gear caps like Eve Online..basically whichever gear you use defines your characters stats or abilities to a large extent

Uncapped system but with a set amount of boosted skills..so maybe 5 skills you could set to +100% benefit, like you could tag polearm mastery then 4 magic schools for a strong mage with good polearm use..then if you want to use axes instead you tag axe instead of polearm. Or tag lots of melee skills for melee type, sword + shield/Riding for a good mounted guy, or defence skills for tanky player, or all the archery skills and a bit of magic for archer etc.

They could simply cap stats but make their effects more powerful. So you want to be a jack of all trades, you lose out on some areas of your character compared to someone who specialises.

If AV wanted to they could come up with a good specialisation system that cuts down on grind/power gap and encourages players to feel like they're making their own char. But instead its totally uncapped and basically a race to who unlocks and grinds virtually everything up first. Unimmersive, soulless and punishes players that don't nerd the **** out of the game

Skizzix
12-12-2010, 23:31
It is absolutely possible to make a system that reduces "grind" while keeping the same amount of character progression. However, it is too little too late for Aventurine to implement that system.

Yazu
12-12-2010, 23:41
With a level cap and no difference in armor or weapons, skill would be EVERYTHING. NO GRINDING WHATSOEVER.

:idea: Why don't you try the call of duty series?

xpiher
12-13-2010, 00:12
oh damn, this polearm is getting boring... i guess i gotta waste a few days to get another melee mastery again.

and if i wanna switch back to polearm, i gotta grind it up again... daamn sounds so fun.


/THIS

Most people don't realize that a skill-cap you increase the grind and not lessen it.
Every time AV would patch something, people would start grinding again to get the flavour of the month.

Yup, most people think skill caps fix all DFOs grind, player power gap, and balance problems. And most people are also retarded.


If Av had a level cap, they would of course suit their improvements thinking about the level cap. For an example, they could make it so that people unlearn a weapon mastery and then spend money for a certain amount of skill in another weapon mastery, like 2000 gold for the first 15 levels, or I don't know, you know where I'm going with this.


Thanks, not only did you add grind to unlearning a skill to get a new one, but you made me grind more to get it back. THIS ONLY WORKS IF THE GAME IS 100% BALANCED.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 00:14
Yup, most people think skill caps fix all DFOs grind, player power gap, and balance problems. And most people are also retarded.



Thanks, not only did you add grind to unlearning a skill to get a new one, but you made me grind more to get it back. THIS ONLY WORKS IF THE GAME IS 100% BALANCED.
If Av had a level cap, they would of course suit their improvements thinking about the level cap. For an example, they could make it so that people unlearn a weapon mastery and then spend money for a certain amount of skill in another weapon mastery, like 2000 gold for the first 15 levels, or I don't know, you know where I'm going with this.

How does not having a skill-cap lessen the grind? Yes, maybe for those who have no life and mass-grind the first two months and then have fun afterwards. What about beginners? Do you ever stop to think about them? Why do the no-lifers get to have all the fun? Why can't a casual player with equal skill but doesn't have the time to grind compete with players who do have the time to grind?

I thought Darkfall was the game of freedom; where you wouldn't have to have to grind and have expensive equipment to be competitive. I thought that was the reason people left WoW for. Skill doesn't matter near as much as it should.


EDIT: this was a top-of-my-head suggestion. Don't take my literally. A whole team of advanced developers will probably do a better job at this than me, who doesn't even know any programming language.

GRCPan
12-13-2010, 00:29
oh damn, this polearm is getting boring... i guess i gotta waste a few days to get another melee mastery again.

and if i wanna switch back to polearm, i gotta grind it up again... daamn sounds so fun.

Because this is the only way it could be implemented.
Having it save your progress of spells/skills you "unlearned" , so that when you "relearn" them you have them leveled up already, was amazingly hard to think.


@OP
Stop beating the dead horse. AV wants a game with classes, thats what darkfall is, thats how it will end up.

Runny
12-13-2010, 00:30
Terrible idea.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 00:31
Why? Because you have no life and have the time to grind?

Runny
12-13-2010, 00:33
Why? Because you have no life and have the time to grind?

Actually i hardly play. but i can still pvp.

xpiher
12-13-2010, 00:33
How does not having a skill-cap lessen the grind? Yes, maybe for those who have no life and mass-grind the first two months and then have fun afterwards. What about beginners? Do you ever stop to think about them? Why do the no-lifers get to have all the fun? Why can't a casual player with equal skill but doesn't have the time to grind compete with players who do have the time to grind?


You really think a skill cap fixes that problem?

silenzer
12-13-2010, 00:37
You really think a skill cap fixes that problem?
Why shouldn't it? Skill cap = beginners catch up quickly, weapons and armor easy to get = beginners are able to play competitively with older players within a week of playing.

Runny
12-13-2010, 00:38
Why shouldn't it? Skill cap = beginners catch up quickly, weapons and armor easy to get = beginners are able to play competitively with older players within a week of playing.

I peed a little bit.

I would like to see you try to prove why you think this would help the game. everyone would get bored REALLY FAST and end up leaving.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 00:41
I peed a little bit.

I would like to see you try to prove why you think this would help the game. everyone would get bored REALLY FAST and end up leaving.
Ah, so you're not even twelve.

Bored really fast? Have you forgotten the key gameplay in Darkfall? Entire cities, alliances, conquest, sieges, betrayals... the possibilities are limitless.

Edit: If you think DF is nothing but grind, perhaps you should be looking for a different game.

melipone
12-13-2010, 00:56
I peed a little bit.

I would like to see you try to prove why you think this would help the game. everyone would get bored REALLY FAST and end up leaving.

How about rather than mindlessly clicking AI to keep people subbed, have deep sandbox features, persistent world with thousands of players, RPG elements, roles, trading, long term wealth goals (decent housing system with huge long term goals..castles etc), achievement unlocks (pretty much the same as skill unlocks for the grinders but without it affecting PVP). Deep player skill based pvp.

Thats the sort of stuff that gave DF the initial huge sub numbers..then the numbers trailed off to a tiny fraction as the gap created between macroers/exploiters/PVE nerds started affecting PVP. The first few months didn't really matter so much terms of character level, it was after that people started getting fed up of the power gap and the majority of the players who stayed subbed were the ones who were prepared to macro overnight/AFK swim/macro bugged on mobs/mount kick through walls/exploit bugs/left click on AI for hours at a time.

Character progression is important for an MMO but so is character differentiation and power gap. AV basically had the opinion that their game wasn't good enough to keep subs through its gameplay and only had a carrot & stick to keep some pvers subbed.

Personally I feel the game was plenty good enough to keep subs without resorting to fake repetitive gameplay. It wasn't amazing and had some flaws, but it had full loot, a big persistent world, some reasons to fight other players and fast paced player skill based PVP, and the actual engine worked better than could be expected 99% of the time. That alone would keep thousands in as it was a monopoly on the game type at the time

xpiher
12-13-2010, 01:07
Why shouldn't it? Skill cap = beginners catch up quickly, weapons and armor easy to get = beginners are able to play competitively with older players within a week of playing.

So basically you don't want character progression to exist

Runny
12-13-2010, 01:12
How about rather than mindlessly clicking AI to keep people subbed, have deep sandbox features, persistent world with thousands of players, RPG elements, roles, trading, long term wealth goals (decent housing system with huge long term goals..castles etc), achievement unlocks (pretty much the same as skill unlocks for the grinders but without it affecting PVP). Deep player skill based pvp.

Thats the sort of stuff that gave DF the initial huge sub numbers..then the numbers trailed off to a tiny fraction as the gap created between macroers/exploiters/PVE nerds started affecting PVP. The first few months didn't really matter so much terms of character level, it was after that people started getting fed up of the power gap and the majority of the players who stayed subbed were the ones who were prepared to macro overnight/AFK swim/macro bugged on mobs/mount kick through walls/exploit bugs/left click on AI for hours at a time.

Character progression is important for an MMO but so is character differentiation and power gap. AV basically had the opinion that their game wasn't good enough to keep subs through its gameplay and only had a carrot & stick to keep some pvers subbed.

Personally I feel the game was plenty good enough to keep subs without resorting to fake repetitive gameplay. It wasn't amazing and had some flaws, but it had full loot, a big persistent world, some reasons to fight other players and fast paced player skill based PVP, and the actual engine worked better than could be expected 99% of the time. That alone would keep thousands in as it was a monopoly on the game type at the time

Lets looks at Game emulators and Mortal online shall we? (they both have relevance)

With game emulators you can do Just that. Give people whatever you want. including free armor/gear. Not only does that ruin the game, It usualy makes game server population incredibly low. (Given some emulators that keep vanilla settings)

Lets take a look at Mortal online now.

You get a darkfall copy with less leveling, You can be good at everything in like 3 weeks to a month if your good enough. Most people that i have talked to quit right after that (I quit 2 days later for me though).

Im not sure why you think this will help, but im pretty sure it will do a lot more harm then good.

Menetherin
12-13-2010, 01:20
Your looking at it the wrong way silenzer. Grind is a frame of mind. If you think WoW is fun and has no grind your seriously fucked up, they have even turned their dungeons into an epic fail grind. If you are going to compare df to anything at least pick something that is the opposite.............oh wait all mmo's have grind.

I have been playing a month and had more fun than any other mmo I have played. I work 60 hours a week and still develop my chracter at a very fast pace and join in, in sieges etc, am I useful..not really. Do I have a shit load of fun...hell yes. Play the game and get out of this WoW mentality of thinking of the next skill, otherwise you are bound to be dissapointed.

melipone
12-13-2010, 01:27
Lets looks at Game emulators and Mortal online shall we? (they both have relevance)

With game emulators you can do Just that. Give people whatever you want. including free armor/gear. Not only does that ruin the game, It usualy makes game server population incredibly low. (Given some emulators that keep vanilla settings)

Lets take a look at Mortal online now.

You get a darkfall copy with less leveling, You can be good at everything in like 3 weeks to a month if your good enough. Most people that i have talked to quit right after that (I quit 2 days later for me though).

Im not sure why you think this will help, but im pretty sure it will do a lot more harm then good.
Thing is you don't have to hit max virtually ever while still keeping a decent power gap under control. I never hit max in UO but there wasn't a real power gap in terms of character levels either because of the way it was designed.

MO has its own issues, and believe me its not the character progression system its anything else. I haven't played since it launched but it most likely lacks sandbox things rather than character progression, and the engine might not be the best for a large world MMO. There are people still happily playing it tho.

The reason people quit if they hit max is because of their mindset towards the game imo. People who played UO or other full loot type games played for the epic fights and everything other than watching some numbers change on their paperdoll. I do feel pve goals are needed though because you need a decent mix of player types..pk's need people killing mobs, people need a reason to kill mobs etc. The reason doesn't have to be just to do with getting a stronger character though.

People who quit at max do so because the rewards stop coming or they run out of stuff to do, but in a sandbox that isn't necessary at all, especially one with decent PVP. It doesn't matter what the reward is as long as people feel like they achieve something, and that can involve getting +1 damage on your spell, getting a ton of loot off some guy you PK, finding some rare fancy looking cloak, being the most sought after armour smith in the area, being the most hated PK, getting a title on your name that players see, completing achievements set by the game (stuff like kill 1000 goblins etc..no reward is needed other than that accomplishment as has been shown in thousands of other games with achievement unlocks, but you could get some +goblin killing stat or something), having a successful shop, training players to PVP, building a pvp clan, getting loot off some mob boss, winning a fight outnumbered because you played better or have better teamwork rather than in the back of your mind thinking you won because of your grinded char, building an empire etc. The goals for players are endless in a good sandbox mmorpg, and people won't quit as long as they enjoy the experience.

Oh and don't compare any EMU stuff to a retail game with professional level support. It doesn't matter how bad the company might be generally you get a better service or less lag than an emu server, and you will get more general interest from players. Emu servers tend to only get hardcore fans

Hasao0012
12-13-2010, 03:57
skill cap if you only have charecter?

FUCK THAT!!!

i can already see this game doing an MO move with that 1

constanly deleting and recreating ill u find that 1 good build then everyone else will use that exact fucking BUILD so its so pointless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a;so u mintioned wow in ur post.... UR POST IS NOW INVALID!!!!!

Hasao0012
12-13-2010, 03:58
Wtf people, there is no level/skill cap.

Lol.

u just gats urself a subs :D

silenzer
12-13-2010, 13:02
So basically you don't want character progression to exist
Of course I want character progression to exist, I just don't think character progression should be based on WoW principles. You really have a WoW built in you if you think character progression is only about levels, gear and money. It should also be based upon skill. Everyone who whine about this not being true are those who have the gear but not the skills to compete with others. I thought that was what DF advertised it would change, right? Yet clearly, they have not. Massive, incessant grinding is needed to stay competitive and not fall behind. You have to grind for weapons, armor, money, ingredients and skills. How the hell is this freedom? How the hell does this mean we can do whatever we want?

Gray Fox
12-13-2010, 14:22
When AV in the past mentioned skill cap and decay they only meant that skills going past 75 would suffer decay.
Putting a skill cap in this game would be quite a task because the balancing work would be imense, an atribute cap however would not be.

Cuferedir
12-13-2010, 14:48
/THIS

Most people don't realize that a skill-cap you increase the grind and not lessen it.
Every time AV would patch something, people would start grinding again to get the flavour of the month.

well, av need to balance things better then.
now they can see, well we know that x sucks, but you dont have to train it, just use y.

Rahkim
12-13-2010, 15:31
The reason people quit if they hit max is because of their mindset towards the game imo.

The reason people quit if it takes "too long" to max is because of their mindset towards the game imo. :sly:

Rahkim
12-13-2010, 16:13
It should also be based upon skill. Everyone who whine about this not being true are those who have the gear but not the skills to compete with others. I thought that was what DF advertised it would change, right? Yet clearly, they have not. Massive, incessant grinding is needed to stay competitive and not fall behind. You have to grind for weapons, armor, money, ingredients and skills. How the hell is this freedom? How the hell does this mean we can do whatever we want?

You don't HAVE to do anything. You might choose to, due to your desire to keep up with the other players who are making a similar choice, but you don't HAVE to. Also, there's a point where many things start to become redundant. Go watch a pvp video and count the number of different spells anyone uses over the course of a fight.

You have the option to pick up more things and try a different combination though. However, once you reach a reasonable baseline as far as skills/stats/spells are concerned, you're competitive with others in terms of character strength. Everything else is just providing you with options and not a clear advantage.

Of course you're going to have to resupply your bank... it IS a full-loot pvp game after all. How you choose to go about that is up to you though. Go pk kids and use their shit. Go kill mobs for gold and buy it. Go harvest like a maniac and have a friend make it for you, or make your own.

There is a wide variety of options in this game, and I'm sorry if you're unable to recognize them, but you're free to choose them all the same.

AttilatheHun
12-13-2010, 16:25
Your best bet is to hit cancel and find something else. The gap is huge..Do not let the common people that reply to these threads tell you otherwise.

Nidhoggr
12-13-2010, 16:26
/THIS

Most people don't realize that a skill-cap you increase the grind and not lessen it.
Every time AV would patch something, people would start grinding again to get the flavour of the month.

That's why instead of an actual cap, they should force people to choose specializations.

You can still level everything but you can only have so many skills active at one time.

This means that the only advantage of a character with everything maxed, is that he can switch between these things. This should obviously have a cooldown.

$id Viciou$
12-13-2010, 20:22
Making the noobys first few months easier is not worth making the end game less fun for everyone. Having no skill cap is funner than having a cap. I am sure they they thought of everything you argue about but keep in mind that the DEVs play this game too and probably just realized like the rest of us who play for more than 6 months that no cap is just funner.

This game should just be more gear dependent where there is a certain set of gear for multiple types of playstyles which they are already working on. More ways to specialize playstyles will be coming.

Some people favor mounted combat more.
Some people always bring the fight to the water.
Some people favor kiting and staying in cover.
Some people favor charging melee all Leeroy Jenkins style.
Some people favor blinds more.
Some people favor AOEs more.
Some people favor rays more.
Some people favor archery bunny hopping.
Some people prefer charging with mage killer/hunter and then switching to destroyer.

Its not as much of clone wars as you seem to think. There are so many different spells to use that you will not have enough hotkeys for them all. It feels different fighting every different opponent and everyone seems to fight a little differently. Sure they look similar to each other but they wont forever what with the new expansion coming.

We should have more gear imo. More than twice as many option. Let our gear change our class somewhat, and keep no cap because that is the funnest.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 23:15
Making the noobys first few months easier is not worth making the end game less fun for everyone. Having no skill cap is funner than having a cap. I am sure they they thought of everything you argue about but keep in mind that the DEVs play this game too and probably just realized like the rest of us who play for more than 6 months that no cap is just funner.

This game should just be more gear dependent where there is a certain set of gear for multiple types of playstyles which they are already working on. More ways to specialize playstyles will be coming.

Some people favor mounted combat more.
Some people always bring the fight to the water.
Some people favor kiting and staying in cover.
Some people favor charging melee all Leeroy Jenkins style.
Some people favor blinds more.
Some people favor AOEs more.
Some people favor rays more.
Some people favor archery bunny hopping.
Some people prefer charging with mage killer/hunter and then switching to destroyer.

Its not as much of clone wars as you seem to think. There are so many different spells to use that you will not have enough hotkeys for them all. It feels different fighting every different opponent and everyone seems to fight a little differently. Sure they look similar to each other but they wont forever what with the new expansion coming.

We should have more gear imo. More than twice as many option. Let our gear change our class somewhat, and keep no cap because that is the funnest.
How do you know that DF without skill cap is funner? Maybe it's funner... for those who have the time to grind. Casual players are the majority population in EVERY mmorpg. Why not suit the game to the majority? Note that a casual gamer does not equal to a noob, a casual gamer is someone who doesn't have time to grind all day. A casual gamer can be a pro, as well. If Av suit the game to casual gamers, people would subscribe thousands at a time because of how easy it is to start in the game, and will eventually get them hooked (see how WoW succeeds at this? amazingly easy to start, and gets you hooked as your char progresses). A casual gamer subscribes, starts, hm, easy to get weapons and armor... perhap's I'd join a clan... POOF, he's hooked forever. Regarding your latter argument, I wasn't saying there wasn't diversity in current PVP. I was saying that it was very hard for beginners to start in DF unless they have much experience in MMO's, and even harder for them to become and stay competitive, especially if they're casual gamers. Remember that casual gamers make up the majority of the population. Do you know why DF's subs are so few? Because it's mostly made up of hardcore gamers. If you want Av to get money, make them have the game more noob/beginner/casual friendly to start with. Of course there will be massive skills required to be good in DF PVP, that's just how the game is. But if casual gamers can start easily, and it's very easy to stay competitive, well, subs will come. And come. And then continue to come. And then continue to come.

xpiher
12-13-2010, 23:20
It should also be based upon skill.

Character progression is not about player skill it is about gear, levels, and play style.


Useless Dribble

Because it means that I don't have to regrind when AV fucks up balance, when I want to change play styles, or my group needs a role fill because X guy that does it perfectly is sick.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 23:33
Character progression is not about player skill it is about gear, levels, and play style.



Because it means that I don't have to regrind when AV fucks up balance, when I want to change play styles, or my group needs a role fill because X guy that does it perfectly is sick.
Character progression? Isn't that what Av said would take away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bYYT6Wg3Gg There, at 0:55 it says: Free of classes and levels. Levels and skills were in from the start, and now they're implementing classes. Good job, Av. 1:00 it says: 100% skill based. How many players do you think thought "ah! no levels at all! i'm going to sub to that game!" 1:15 - use strategy to beat your enemies... lol yeah right. 1:18 - YOU'RE FREE... (except from the horrible grinding :P:P:P::O:O:O) 1:21 - play PVP however you wish (provided you've spent hours and hours grinding mindlessly) 2:99 - in darkfall you are free... completely (yeah i'll just leave that at that)

Seriously, I didn't subscribe to Darkfall for the insane grind. I subscribed because it was different. Different from any game I've ever played. Different from any game I've ever heard of. All this talk of freedom, with the condition of grinding mindlessly.

xpiher
12-13-2010, 23:39
Character progression? Isn't that what Av said would take away?

Nope.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 23:41
Nope.

Don't dodge the question. I showed you the very first video AV released of DF, or at least one of the first, promising so many things (you are free, pvp how you want, etc. etc.) and then betray us by having things completely different.

xpiher
12-13-2010, 23:45
Don't dodge the question. I showed you the very first video AV released of DF, or at least one of the first, promising so many things (you are free, pvp how you want, etc. etc.) and then betray us by having things completely different.

I'll let JCanto come here and quote Tasos because I don't feel like finding the quotes but basically 50% is suppose to be player skills and 50% is based on character.

silenzer
12-13-2010, 23:47
I'll let JCanto come here and quote Tasos because I don't feel like finding the quotes but basically 50% is suppose to be player skills and 50% is based on character.
Which is exactly like WoW.

xpiher
12-13-2010, 23:55
Which is exactly like WoW.

No wow is 90% character, 10% skill.

Hasao0012
12-14-2010, 00:04
How do you know that DF without skill cap is funner? Maybe it's funner... for those who have the time to grind. Casual players are the majority population in EVERY mmorpg. Why not suit the game to the majority? Note that a casual gamer does not equal to a noob, a casual gamer is someone who doesn't have time to grind all day. A casual gamer can be a pro, as well. If Av suit the game to casual gamers, people would subscribe thousands at a time because of how easy it is to start in the game, and will eventually get them hooked (see how WoW succeeds at this? amazingly easy to start, and gets you hooked as your char progresses). A casual gamer subscribes, starts, hm, easy to get weapons and armor... perhap's I'd join a clan... POOF, he's hooked forever. Regarding your latter argument, I wasn't saying there wasn't diversity in current PVP. I was saying that it was very hard for beginners to start in DF unless they have much experience in MMO's, and even harder for them to become and stay competitive, especially if they're casual gamers. Remember that casual gamers make up the majority of the population. Do you know why DF's subs are so few? Because it's mostly made up of hardcore gamers. If you want Av to get money, make them have the game more noob/beginner/casual friendly to start with. Of course there will be massive skills required to be good in DF PVP, that's just how the game is. But if casual gamers can start easily, and it's very easy to stay competitive, well, subs will come. And come. And then continue to come. And then continue to come.


ok first off

PARAGRAPHS ARE UR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2nd off

just stfu click unsubb and gtfo if you want a game where you max out after like 5 days casual (30 min-1 hour play) or 1 day hardcore THEN go to MO where all there is to do is pvp

i bet ull be back in less then 3 mounths

3rd off

NEVER compare DFO to wow EVER i personaly think u should be perma banned just for doing so (both account and forum account and ur ip)

4th off

stop QQing u sound like a cry baby

5th off i only skimmed seance this was so badly written

Hasao0012
12-14-2010, 00:05
No wow is 99.9% character, 0.1% skill.

fixed

silenzer
12-14-2010, 00:13
ok first off

PARAGRAPHS ARE UR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2nd off

just stfu click unsubb and gtfo if you want a game where you max out after like 5 days casual (30 min-1 hour play) or 1 day hardcore THEN go to MO where all there is to do is pvp

i bet ull be back in less then 3 mounths

3rd off

NEVER compare DFO to wow EVER i personaly think u should be perma banned just for doing so (both account and forum account and ur ip)

4th off

stop QQing u sound like a cry baby

5th off i only skimmed seance this was so badly written
1st off: This was a paragraph.
2nd off: You are an irrational DF fanboy. You have not given me any arguments to what I just said. I was complaining about grinding, and you tell me to sub off?
3rd off: You are an irrational DF fanboy.
4th off: I'm sorry, but you sound like a QQing baby, not me.
5th off: I'm sorry, but it's your text that is badly written, not mine. Mine is in plain English, yours is... well...

silenzer
12-14-2010, 00:15
No wow is 90% character, 10% skill.

No, I'm a WoW veteran, I know what I'm talking about. A guy with a lvl 25 can't just jump right in the arena with a lvl 80, even with excellent gear. He won't win a single game.

$id Viciou$
12-14-2010, 01:02
How do you know that DF without skill cap is funner? Maybe it's funner... for those who have the time to grind. Casual players are the majority population in EVERY mmorpg. Why not suit the game to the majority? Note that a casual gamer does not equal to a noob, a casual gamer is someone who doesn't have time to grind all day. A casual gamer can be a pro, as well. If Av suit the game to casual gamers, people would subscribe thousands at a time because of how easy it is to start in the game, and will eventually get them hooked (see how WoW succeeds at this? amazingly easy to start, and gets you hooked as your char progresses). A casual gamer subscribes, starts, hm, easy to get weapons and armor... perhap's I'd join a clan... POOF, he's hooked forever. Regarding your latter argument, I wasn't saying there wasn't diversity in current PVP. I was saying that it was very hard for beginners to start in DF unless they have much experience in MMO's, and even harder for them to become and stay competitive, especially if they're casual gamers. Remember that casual gamers make up the majority of the population. Do you know why DF's subs are so few? Because it's mostly made up of hardcore gamers. If you want Av to get money, make them have the game more noob/beginner/casual friendly to start with. Of course there will be massive skills required to be good in DF PVP, that's just how the game is. But if casual gamers can start easily, and it's very easy to stay competitive, well, subs will come. And come. And then continue to come. And then continue to come.

I am a casual gamer but I play this game because it is hard and its one of the only games that can bring me to the edge of my seat (I cannot sit back and press ALT+1+2+3 combos while watching floating numbers anymore . ... way too boring and that is 99% of the other MMORPGs out there).

You can play this game casually and have a great time. I have done it myself for almost 2 years and so have many others.

There are a few things to help being a casual player like:
- AFK harvesting while cleaning house or watching a movie . .. or even playing a different game (Darkfall is very ALT+TAB friendly) just whenever you can.
- rolling a good race and remaining blue so that you do not have to ride a mount as much.
- find the fastest method for organizing gear in the bank.
- log in with a plan and a backup plan (dont log in and scratch your ass wondering what you should do).
- Melee/archery specs that block magic are viable in PVP and only a small fraction of the grind is needed compared to being a mage.
- Macroing. You can legally maintain a macro while watching a movie or whatever. I have not done this on this character at all but if I had, I would have capped almost a year ago.

I do not have everything unlocked and have magic blocked (melee spec) and have a lot more fun fighting those who have everything unlock because I am much more at the edge of my seat, the combat is more unpredictable, and many more things race through my head with the more spells I see people using (as I have to react to my opponent). If there was a cap than people would not be providing me with such a challenge by changing tactics in an instant. End-game combat with everything unlocked is the biggest rush that any game has to offer for the most part. Its insane fun and no other game lets you get everything like Darkfall does. Its not like I could go find another game to do this for me if something happened to this one.

I actually stopped working on grinding my toon almost a year ago. It really wasn't hard to get to the point where I was satisfied. I don't need 100 in everything and choosing melee/archery spec reduces the grind a lot.

I put all of my focus into melee and archery pretty much. My play-style and strategies would be quite different if I went the mage route and it would have been less risky to PVP in the long run but worth not having to grind as much.

Offline skilling should help you unlock everything a little. It's only 2.5k or so everyday.

If you are looking for a game to play for only a couple months, this is probably not the best choice, even for a hardcore gamer, but playing casually for years is a hell of a lot funner overall.

xpiher
12-14-2010, 01:05
No, I'm a WoW veteran, I know what I'm talking about. A guy with a lvl 25 can't just jump right in the arena with a lvl 80, even with excellent gear. He won't win a single game.

Proving my point which is wow character>skill where in DFO character = skill

Hasao0012
12-14-2010, 01:13
1st off: This was a paragraph.
2nd off: You are an irrational DF fanboy. You have not given me any arguments to what I just said. I was complaining about grinding, and you tell me to sub off?
3rd off: You are an irrational DF fanboy.
4th off: I'm sorry, but you sound like a QQing baby, not me.
5th off: I'm sorry, but it's your text that is badly written, not mine. Mine is in plain English, yours is... well...

1 i didnt read ur "paragraph" because it was un F!@#in read able
2 not realy i only played like the 14 day trail.... i just know true grind when i see it
3 trying to repeat urself to sound important?
4 no ur the 1 QQing here im just stating that ur an ideot
5 giant illegable block of text is good? where have i been all these years i always thought PROPER PARAGRAPHS where the right way

silenzer
12-14-2010, 08:58
1 i didnt read ur "paragraph" because it was un F!@#in read able
2 not realy i only played like the 14 day trail.... i just know true grind when i see it
3 trying to repeat urself to sound important?
4 no ur the 1 QQing here im just stating that ur an ideot
5 giant illegable block of text is good? where have i been all these years i always thought PROPER PARAGRAPHS where the right way
1. It is well readable, if you have not just learnt to read.
2. Sure :)
3. No, you're just stupid, that's all.
4. I'm not QQing. Do you see me QQing? You're the one who's QQing.
5. You need to blow off steam somewhere.

johnnyc3po
12-14-2010, 09:15
what xipheeerrer doesn't realize is that the game doesn't need skills, attributes, and and sort of level. If AV had made this game strictly about player skill and territory control, players would stay involved, more players would be involved, and the world would be a better place in general.

It's a sad case of, "We had an idea, but were scared to follow through on it, so we played it safe"

Currently the game is 90% toon skill and gear, and 10% operator skill.

silenzer
12-14-2010, 13:18
Proving my point which is wow character>skill where in DFO character = skill

You sir do not know math. If Wow character > skill were true (or 90% gear, 10% skill as you said) then a lvl 30 character would pown everyone with great skill but in lousy gear. I actually did an experiment on this some time ago. I let my friend, who was lvl 29 at the time, command my endgame druid with full season 4 (season 4 being the highest back then) in the arena for one game. He couldn't do shit, not even in BGs where people were so badly geared some were greenies.
This simple experiment proves you're wrong. WoW is much more than just 90% gear and 10% skill. WoW is 50% gear and 50% skill. Unfortunately, DF is aswell. It doesn't matter whether Tasos said they were going to have it that way or not, I'm saying there's something wrong with that system. Grinding to be competitive wasn't something I had in mind when I subscribed and I can ensure you no beginner subscribes to Darkfall with that in mind. PvPing and having fun was what I had in mind.
You see, having the time required to grind so massive, will scare away beginners. Aventurine lives off of beginners that pay for their servers. If little to no beginners join, how can you expect to keep on playing this game?
Darkfall is on a downward slide. It will die out, because no one will join the game. And the gap between the beginner and heavy grinders becomes bigger every single day.

Aventurine, every MMORPG lives off of casual players. They make up the majority of the game in EVERY game. The CASUAL gamers are what allow you and others to continue your fun at the top.
1. Make it easier for people to catch up (skill-cap) so beginners don't feel overwhelmed. This way it also comes down to skill, not gear.
2. Make a better learning curve! You really have no idea what you have to do when you start.
3. Make events, make updates that support the first point (1.). Minimizing character progression as in gear and money doesn't necessarily mean that it's gone forever. Aventurine just has to play their cards right, by implementing features that support the easy-to-get-armor-and-skill-cap thing.

EDIT:

Av said that this game is for veterans. And I accept that. But a veteran does not equal to a heavy grinder. A veteran can be a heavy grinder, but not necessarily. Make way for those MMORPG veterans who don't have the time to compete with others who have more time.

Dooney
12-14-2010, 13:34
No wow is 90% character, 10% skill.

You are a retard I swear.

WoW takes skill when two equal characters are matched against each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMXVKZ3gqs
Blizzcon World of Warcraft Arena tournament.

Are you actually saying that this type of team play doesn't take skill?

In Darkfall, when two equal characters are matched against each other, the player with the most skill will win.

However, most fights in Darkfall consist of a stronger character vs a weaker character. Which would mean the weaker character would need to be a lot more "skillful" than the stronger character.

Dooney
12-14-2010, 13:37
You see, having the time required to grind so massive, will scare away beginners. Aventurine lives off of beginners that pay for their servers. If little to no beginners join, how can you expect to keep on playing this game?
Darkfall is on a downward slide. It will die out, because no one will join the game. And the gap between the beginner and heavy grinders becomes bigger every single day.


Bingo.

Orov
12-14-2010, 15:03
and no difference in armor or weapons

So cloth armor would = Dragon armor?

Yeah, that's cool. If you're an idiot.

silenzer
12-14-2010, 15:06
Of course not. I mean metal with red colour shouldn't be better than metal with gray color.

Sarphus
12-14-2010, 15:10
Now, from time to time I ask myself... what the hell was Aventurine thinking? Why did they let people create characters with high levels in almost every class and weapon? Noobs face a devastating grind time ahead, unless they want to face goblins all day long.
I mean, wtf? How couldn't you have thought of this?
What about the level cap I heard about? That you could only level so many levels? I know this game was supposed to be the definition of freedom, but come on, this is completely game breaking for beginners. I realize that the grinding ahead isn't HOLEY FUCKING MASSIVE, but it's still VERY boring. Can you see how easy it is to start in WoW (yes I'm comparing DF to WoW, this hate on WoW is coming a little fanatic). Can you see how successful WoW is? I'm not saying DF has to be exactly like WoW, just that the learning curve is like in WoW. With the level cap and very little difference in weapons and armor, skill would mean everything. Poof! A million subscriptions right there. Few beginners = little money. Little money = poor performance. Poor performance = loss of old players. Loss of old players = even less money. Even less money = BANKRUPT! And why is some armor better than other armor? Darkfall would be a WHOLE LLLOOOT more popular if it were EASY to get armor and weapons, and old players wouldn't have better armor than beginners. With a level cap and no difference in armor or weapons, skill would be EVERYTHING. NO GRINDING WHATSOEVER. And with the learning curve, beginners wouldn't give up after the first week like all of my friends have.

It's been so long that wiping the servers will only sweep all experienced players from the game.

You have failed, Aventurine. This game could have been huge.

WoW is successful because it's easy. It does everything for you, which caters to the majority of people. Let's face it. A majority of people who aren't gamers will play WoW because they can go grind for their next gear item or level and then go stomp other people that don't have that item or level. It's an addiction engine treadmill game.

The folley in your logic is that you're looking at DF as if it were an addiction engine treadmill. Sure, you can level every skill in the game, but it doesn't benefit you much beyond a certain point. Who do you think is more powerful? Someone who has 50 in 5 weapon mastries or someone who has 100 in 1 (stats being equal).

It is easy to get armor and weapons in DF. That's why they wear out. If items were hard to get, everyone would be naked. There are people that could build the top suit in DF in a day. That is simply not possible in WoW.

Relax and play the game... Sure, there are aspects of the game that make the entry level to pvp competance a little high, but the lvl cap isn't the reason.

The devs claim they are addressing these issues with prestige classes in the next expansion.

silenzer
12-14-2010, 15:13
WoW is successful because it's easy. It does everything for you, which caters to the majority of people. Let's face it. A majority of people who aren't gamers will play WoW because they can go grind for their next gear item or level and then go stomp other people that don't have that item or level. It's an addiction engine treadmill game.

The folley in your logic is that you're looking at DF as if it were an addiction engine treadmill. Sure, you can level every skill in the game, but it doesn't benefit you much beyond a certain point. Who do you think is more powerful? Someone who has 50 in 5 weapon mastries or someone who has 100 in 1 (stats being equal).

It is easy to get armor and weapons in DF. That's why they wear out. If items were hard to get, everyone would be naked. There are people that could build the top suit in DF in a day. That is simply not possible in WoW.

Relax and play the game... Sure, there are aspects of the game that make the entry level to pvp competance a little high, but the lvl cap isn't the reason.

The devs claim they are addressing these issues with prestige classes in the next expansion.
Ah, so they're adding classes... that'll fix the problem!

Raszor
12-14-2010, 19:29
You are a retard I swear.

WoW takes skill when two equal characters are matched against each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMXVKZ3gqs
Blizzcon World of Warcraft Arena tournament.

Are you actually saying that this type of team play doesn't take skill?

In Darkfall, when two equal characters are matched against each other, the player with the most skill will win.

However, most fights in Darkfall consist of a stronger character vs a weaker character. Which would mean the weaker character would need to be a lot more "skillful" than the stronger character.

This type of teamplay? How can you tell... The quality of that video you just linked is so bad that you can't even see what they are doing. WoW = better gear wins and ofcourse it also involves LUCK and class v class.

Darkfall requires way more player skill. But yeah, AV increase the magic gain on mobs moar pls. So the non-macröers can also catch up. All the long term players have all their magic maxed anyway. People don't like to grind for months, they like to PvP. And if someone get's killed 20 times a day when he starts and loses all his stuff without having the slightest chance to win then they'll quit. Unless they are hardcore (like all the existing darkfall players with undeveloped characters.) In a game like darkfall dieing isn't such a big deal. Dieing without giving any resistance because you dont want to macro/afk swim however is a very big deal.

A faster stat/skill/spell increase is the only way to get this game more populated. And is the only thing that will prevent people from quitting after playing for a month. People always seem to forget that undeveloped characters are also shitty pve'rs so running with good gear is a very difficult thing for them, making them even worse in pvp. And come on.... the meditiation thing is a joke, it doesn't even increase stats and is way overpriced for newbies

YEA we've all been there. But when most of us were there everyone was there. If you join the game nowadays you stand no chance at fucking all :P
Lol i think i got abit off-topic

silenzer
12-14-2010, 19:40
This type of teamplay? How can you tell... The quality of that video you just linked is so bad that you can't even see what they are doing. WoW = better gear wins and ofcourse it also involves LUCK and class v class.

Darkfall requires way more player skill. But yeah, AV increase the magic gain on mobs moar pls. So the non-macröers can also catch up. All the long term players have all their magic maxed anyway. People don't like to grind for months, they like to PvP. And if someone get's killed 20 times a day when he starts and loses all his stuff without having the slightest chance to win then they'll quit. Unless they are hardcore (like all the existing darkfall players with undeveloped characters.) In a game like darkfall dieing isn't such a big deal. Dieing without giving any resistance because you dont want to macro/afk swim however is a very big deal.

A faster stat/skill/spell increase is the only way to get this game more populated. And is the only thing that will prevent people from quitting after playing for a month. People always seem to forget that undeveloped characters are also shitty pve'rs so running with good gear is a very difficult thing for them, making them even worse in pvp. And come on.... the meditiation thing is a joke, it doesn't even increase stats and is way overpriced for newbies

YEA we've all been there. But when most of us were there everyone was there. If you join the game nowadays you stand no chance at fucking all :P
Lol i think i got abit off-topic
Indeed.

How about, as someone suggested, that 0-75 is very fast, and after that you hit a wall?

daRkRevenGeR
12-14-2010, 19:50
How do you know that DF without skill cap is funner? Maybe it's funner... for those who have the time to grind. Casual players are the majority population in EVERY mmorpg. Why not suit the game to the majority? Note that a casual gamer does not equal to a noob, a casual gamer is someone who doesn't have time to grind all day. A casual gamer can be a pro, as well. If Av suit the game to casual gamers, people would subscribe thousands at a time because of how easy it is to start in the game, and will eventually get them hooked (see how WoW succeeds at this? amazingly easy to start, and gets you hooked as your char progresses). A casual gamer subscribes, starts, hm, easy to get weapons and armor... perhap's I'd join a clan... POOF, he's hooked forever. Regarding your latter argument, I wasn't saying there wasn't diversity in current PVP. I was saying that it was very hard for beginners to start in DF unless they have much experience in MMO's, and even harder for them to become and stay competitive, especially if they're casual gamers. Remember that casual gamers make up the majority of the population. Do you know why DF's subs are so few? Because it's mostly made up of hardcore gamers. If you want Av to get money, make them have the game more noob/beginner/casual friendly to start with. Of course there will be massive skills required to be good in DF PVP, that's just how the game is. But if casual gamers can start easily, and it's very easy to stay competitive, well, subs will come. And come. And then continue to come. And then continue to come.

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but he is right. There is at least two if not three potential paragraphs in your "paragraph". It's a cluster fuck. That being said, it wasn't the hardest thing to read, but damn near close to it.

Another thing to work on is the use of "casual" over and over and over.. You don't need to relay your point of the topic of the discussion so many times when as you said, it was only one paragraph. I could go on but there is no point.

Before you defend yourself on the amazing writing structure that is ever so present... Please, do us a favor and have your mom proof read it.

:bang:

daRkRevenGeR
12-14-2010, 19:53
At least the post was in English and not "Engrish", Silenzer. :sly:

Raszor
12-14-2010, 19:56
At least the post was in English and not "Engrish", Silenzer. :sly:

Wtf are you trying to achieve here?

Krej
12-14-2010, 20:02
op u wrong
it IS HOLEY FUCKING MASSIVE and VERY boring

silenzer
12-14-2010, 20:06
Sorry to burst your bubble man, but he is right. There is at least two if not three potential paragraphs in your "paragraph". It's a cluster fuck. That being said, it wasn't the hardest thing to read, but damn near close to it.

Another thing to work on is the use of "casual" over and over and over.. You don't need to relay your point of the topic of the discussion so many times when as you said, it was only one paragraph. I could go on but there is no point.

Before you defend yourself on the amazing writing structure that is ever so present... Please, do us a favor and have your mom proof read it.

:bang:
That was kind of off topic but ok

$id Viciou$
12-14-2010, 20:27
Threads like this are the whole reason that the MMORPG genre has been dumbed down for casual players.

You people don't even know what grind is . .. probably came from WoW or other dumbed-down games for the new generation of bitchy console gaming whiners.

In FFA PVP games outside of this one I have had to grind a hell of a lot more!

Ever play EQs FFA PVP server?

Imagine camping mobs for a couple months straight for the chance of an epic spawn to drop something that you want . .. a piece of epic gear . .. and then lose it to the first person who kills you. LOL now thats a fucking grind, not Darkfall.

silenzer
12-14-2010, 20:30
Threads like this are the whole reason that the MMORPG genre has been dumbed down for casual players.

You people don't even know what grind is . .. probably came from WoW or other dumbed-down games for the new generation of bitchy console gaming whiners.

In FFA PVP games outside of this one I have had to grind a hell of a lot more!

Ever play EQs FFA PVP server?

Imagine camping mobs for a couple months straight for the chance of an epic spawn to drop something that you want . .. a piece of epic gear . .. and then lose it to the first person who kills you. LOL now thats a fucking grind, not Darkfall.
Do you know why the majority of every video game is based on casual gamers? Because the majority of gamers have a life.
I know very well what grind is. It's just too damn much.

$id Viciou$
12-14-2010, 20:34
Do you know why the majority of every video game is based on casual gamers? Because the majority of gamers have a life.
I know very well what grind is. It's just too damn much.

The reason I was so excited for DFO was because Tasos said himself to the public that you probably will not like Darkfall and it will probably be too hardcore for you.

When I find a good MMO, I play it for years.

The only thing that I can guess is that either you do not know if the grind is worth it or not, or you are not planning on playing for very long.

Whatever the case is . .. good riddance.

Plenty of other games that you can play but unfortunately you'll spend the majority of the time in other games auto-attacking and watching your character do animations that cause floating damage numbers . ... have fun with that!

:p

Baron Cadbury
12-14-2010, 21:00
you'll spend the majority of the time in other games auto-attacking and watching your character do animations that cause floating damage numbers . ... have fun with that!

I wouldn't be against floating damage numbers in darkfall...

daRkRevenGeR
12-14-2010, 21:01
Wtf are you trying to achieve here?

Haha.. I know. Sorry about that.

In regards to there not being a level cap.. It's a pretty cool thing, imo. The only problem that I see with it is unused skills don't diminish over time. Then again if they did, people would just macro them to keep their skills up at 100 indefinitely.

daRkRevenGeR
12-14-2010, 21:02
I wouldn't be against floating damage numbers in darkfall...

Same here man. Perhaps it would induce lag though? :lmao:

TheVillageIdiot
12-14-2010, 21:10
I wouldn't be against floating damage numbers in darkfall...

it would be awesome! that way I always know where everyone is fighting! look for the numbers!

Hiding behind a bush healing! not any more!

silenzer
12-15-2010, 00:36
it would be awesome! that way I always know where everyone is fighting! look for the numbers!

Hiding behind a bush healing! not any more!

lol