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Laenih
12-10-2010, 22:36
As mentioned we introduced the new offline skilling with the latest patch and we are considering constructive feedback for the meditation system. On top of this, we will frequently add additional skills to me meditation system.

Before you add your feedback:
a) please keep it constructive and explain in detail what your concerns are.

b) The meditation system is NOT meant to replace playing Darkfall. It's meant to be complementary to your normal playing and skill up session. You shouldn't look at it as saving up the money to get a whole school from one to 100 in one go.

c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is faster then skilling up an advanced school.


Thanks for helping us with constructive feedback in advance and staying with the topic at hand which is the meditation system.

Trammie
12-10-2010, 22:37
patch sucked offline skill gains too expensive to be useful but thanks for fixing some bugs

VoodooChild
12-10-2010, 22:38
too expensive, both noobs and vets will never use it.

Bakou
12-10-2010, 22:39
Meditation skill:
Too expensive
Too long

Trammie
12-10-2010, 22:39
id pay those amounts for skills like weapons mastery and magic efficiencys and intensifies

Bakou
12-10-2010, 22:40
Focus on better stuff

Like..

By popular demand, NPC vendors will now accept Composite Clubs from players who wish to sell them.

What the hell???

Virindii
12-10-2010, 22:42
good work AV. Meditaion is fine as it is now. A smal bonus if you are offline but the main work the player have to do himself.

Trammie
12-10-2010, 22:43
oh yes med takes wayyyy to long the vets are happy with our characters we want aventurine to do something to actually attract new players and this med thing aint doing it

can we please get a good patch with some content or something to bring new players?

reduce the skills/spells grind so new players get fun spells and stuff quick and tweak the stats as well i say let people have alot of skills fast so they can have fun

and stats be our reward for being vets we get to have higher stats

Hammerfist
12-10-2010, 22:44
Feed back for this patch

Offline skilling sucks, its too expensive and doesn't cover half the problems new players are having when entering the game. Needs to cover more skills, stats, be extremely less expensive or free. Needs to be better than AFK swimming so new players can use it to progress and catch up to vets.
Offline skilling rating 1/10

This patch, again, didn't include a lot of features promised by AV developers that would be in the "next" patch after hell freeze.

This patch offers no new content, trivial bug fixes, no key features and a character progression tool made for new players that they can't afford.

Good Job Tasos

Morad
12-10-2010, 22:45
I like this new feature, and cannot compare the Meditation method
of Skill Gains vs the Macroing method.
I have no experience with the Macro Method.

I would like to see other Skill types included.
ie;

Melee Weapons
Archery
Crafting (probably at a higher cost at a certain lvl)
Echanting (probably at a higher cost at a certain lvl)
........


Nice Feature overall !!

Laenih
12-10-2010, 22:50
First of all, the patch was about the meditation system only, bug fixes like mentioned were added additionally. Thanks for keeping this in mind.

We again, ask you to keep your feedback constructive which means please test the system in detail before you get back to us with feedback.

Depending on how high your skill is and what school you are focusing on, your numbers are going to show different numbers because the skill-ups are following diminishing returns: the higher your skill us the less gain you will get per gold.

Thank you :)

gorfhag
12-10-2010, 22:50
One of it is not correct. It is too expensive or too slow. I wonder how I could use this if my magic wouldnt be 100 already. No I wouldnt use it srsly.

It have to be cheaper and took more time or even more expensive and almost instant. But like this, it is srsly totaly useless.

This patch is fail. What a surprise :rolleyes:

MAD-DUKE
12-10-2010, 22:51
We need these baby patches to be weekly.

Best - Enchantments hold after death.
2nd - Sea Tower Prime Times
3rd - Arrows Stack

Jesse Jane
12-10-2010, 22:52
I like this new feature, and cannot compare the Meditation method
of Skill Gains vs the Macroing method.
I have no experience with the Macro Method.

I would like to see other Skill types included.
ie;

Melee Weapons
Archery
Crafting (probably at a higher cost at a certain lvl)
Echanting (probably at a higher cost at a certain lvl)
........


Nice Feature overall !!

this.

Liquid20
12-10-2010, 22:52
Meditation cost is too high. The meditation screen itself has way too little information. I have Spell chanting at 61. I want to get it to 75. Why can't it tell me how much that will cost and how long it will take? I know i could use sacrifice on wildlife for a few hours, but that wouldn't be replacing the tedious tasks often found in the game or w/e the quote was.

Most of what you did in the patch was positive though.

Orolt Lifebring
12-10-2010, 22:52
It might be that it's a bit too slow/too expensive. I'd really give it some more time to see how it works to decide that though.

However as you already stated on the original thread, some people are really confused saying "it's not worth it to meditate if i can go and whack mobs". Of course it's not, it was never supposed to. It's something complementary that you do when you aren't playing. You're not supposed to stop playing to go meditate nor it's supposed to be the main way to level your skills.

I think it's good you were short at first instead of long, because if they were too fast/cheap, it would be chaos.

Hammerfist
12-10-2010, 22:56
First of all, the patch was about the meditation system only, bug fixes like mentioned were added additionally. Thanks for keeping this in mind.

We again, ask you to keep your feedback constructive which means please test the system in detail before you get back to us with feedback.

Depending on how high your skill is and what school you are focusing on, your numbers are going to show a different numbers because the skill-ups are following diminishing returns: the higher your skill us the less gain you will get per gold.

Thank you :)

First of all, the patch after the hell freeze expansion was promised by tasos to include key features like environmental sounds, GUI revamp, ect. The offline skilling is needed to keep new players in the game by allowing them to catch up to vets. Currently it will cost me 46k gold to go from 92 water magic to 100. For a vet that is a lot, for a newbie that's impossible. There is all ready a lack of high yielding mobs in the game so its very hard for new players to get the gold to play the game yet alone use offline skilling. Rethink it asap to make it free, and better than afk swimming.

Machinistlol
12-10-2010, 22:56
my alt is currently using it so he can get haste, it should be NEVER made overpowered. just a helper for people who dont wanna macro, i dont understand these newbs who think it should be overpowered or should be lead to a instant max character button with no effort

it takes 33 days from 1-100 and about 170k gold?

if i didnt macro or already done my grind i would use this feature while offline to continue to skill.

Drago Palmas
12-10-2010, 22:57
c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is going to be faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is going to be faster then skilling up an advanced school.
[/B]



When you say "its going to be" means its not like that right now and will be tweaked?
Because thats what it feels like.

Also this can not be the fix for the grind or the new/vet player gap problem.
As a first try its not to bad.

Laenih
12-10-2010, 22:59
First of all, the patch after the hell freeze expansion was promised by tasos to include key features like environmental sounds, GUI revamp, ect. The offline skilling is needed to keep new players in the game by allowing them to catch up to vets. Currently it will cost me 46k gold to go from 92 water magic to 100. For a vet that is a lot, for a newbie that's impossible. There is all ready a lack of high yielding mobs in the game so its very hard for new players to get the gold to play the game yet alone use offline skilling. Rethink it asap to make it free, and better than afk swimming.

Running the danger of trolling my own thread: No, it was never stated or even mentioned that the environmental sounds or gui revamp will be in with the first patch following the hellfreeze expansion.

Once again, to make our job easier, please keep your feedback relevant to the meditation system so we can collect information easier and make sure it will get to the correct sources.

Orolt Lifebring
12-10-2010, 23:00
First of all, the patch after the hell freeze expansion was promised by tasos to include key features like environmental sounds, GUI revamp, ect.


Lol at the "YOU PROMISED IT", when they CLEARLY said the environmental sounds were only on earlier stages and the gui has always been promised for "Darkfall 2010"(a.k.a Darkfall 2011 :P )


Rethink it asap to make it free, and better than afk swimming.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

The problem is, if they make it better than ANY kind of afk skilling, considering macros can be pretty damn good, you'll be making it better than playing itself, therefore encouraging people to not play.

Sollution is to adjust it to a decent point(might be a bit too slow atm, not sure, haven't tested much yet), and start seriously prohibiting macroing.

Laenih
12-10-2010, 23:00
When you say "its going to be" means its not like that right now and will be tweaked?
Because thats what it feels like.


My apology, IT IS working with diminishing returns right now :) I corrected the OP accordingly.

Orolt Lifebring
12-10-2010, 23:01
Also this can not be the fix for the grind or the new/vet player gap problem.
As a first try its not to bad.

The problem is that they never intended to "fix" any problem.

It's just a little thing so that you don't feel you're losing your time when you log off. Never intended to fix any imaginary gap.

Xathian
12-10-2010, 23:03
Way too expensive to skill up using the meditation sytem and way too long, even if you grinded some while u were online, this system ws meant to reduce the time you needed to be actively grinding, 33days for a magic school to 100 and 200k c'mon, people wanted to use the meditation system so they could pvp or do w/e else in the time they could play, that's just obscene.

gorfhag
12-10-2010, 23:03
First of all, the patch was about the meditation system only, bug fixes like mentioned were added additionally. Thanks for keeping this in mind.

We again, ask you to keep your feedback constructive which means please test the system in detail before you get back to us with feedback.

Depending on how high your skill is and what school you are focusing on, your numbers are going to show different numbers because the skill-ups are following diminishing returns: the higher your skill us the less gain you will get per gold.

Thank you :)Damn, do you think we did not read that there is diminishing returns hundread times already? :D

Yeah, we got it, but still even most of us veterans who want newbies finally start enjoying the game instead of macroing 24/7 complain about it. Even newbie wont use this in its current state unless he want magic only for lets say confusion and only if he is villing to buy golds or stay destroyer to forever. Coz skilling up magic schoold only is absolutely useless for ppl who want to play with magic. They will have to spend the same time in grinding other skills on the end to get mana conservations etc. stats, and spells up. So Magic chool skill itself is usefull only for who? 5% of newbies :D... I§m not saying that they should get high magic, fast, cheap, offline and without any risk, but like this they actualy get nothing for insanely high price in fucking huge amount of time...

Ok, you can get confusion now. For how much 200k in 30 days? Ya, great, go ask newbies how they like it :D.

Thank you :)

MAD-DUKE
12-10-2010, 23:05
Ya this mediation thing doesn't really help cause no one cares about spell schools. The grind is behind the spells. Only purpose of the school is to unlock spells that you have to grind up for them to be valuable.

Firaxis
12-10-2010, 23:05
A damn good addition to the game, but count me in the too expensive camp.

Meditation is mostly targeted at new players. Yes, I understand there are diminishing gains, but to expect a new player to gather up to 200k for one school (Necro as an example) is pretty ludicrous.

Also, the time it takes to raise the schools is far too long. A month and a half for one school? While it shouldn't be over night, five to six days at most is a reasonable amount of time.

If the cost was adjusted to roughly double what it would cost to grind it up, that would be much better and more viable to new players. Keep in mind, this is who the patch is for, new players. I've been playing on the same character since EU launch and I would have a lot of trouble affording to raise one school.

With respect to the new players, why does this not raise stats? If it is going to be this much of a money sink, why not toss that in as well (and secondary skills like archmage and spell quickness's). If people HAVE to invest such a hefty wad of gold and time, make it more worthwhile. As of now, it is a feature that won't be used.

Keno
12-10-2010, 23:08
Way to Expensive, should cost 40-50k to max a school.

lkx
12-10-2010, 23:10
I haven't enough data yet to post a solid feedback, the interface definitively needs to be improved and be more informative rather than just showing your way to 100. This, with the diminishing return, can be really confusing and dishearting (expecially for new players).

On the first analisys the time needed seems ok, but the cost seems excessive, but, as i said, with the current interface is hard to get solid data, and this could turn to be not so bad.
It's true that it's not supposed to supersede normal gameplay training, but you know that gameplay training is much faster (and have a lot of additional effects... leaving alone afk macroers...), the big cost could just increase the gap between grinders/farmers and normal players, and if this prove to really be too much expensive, then it'd be just a useless feature.

We'll see when more solid data will be avaible.

Niburu
12-10-2010, 23:10
-Stats need to level with it, INT that is
-the skill you have in every magic school,durability mana eff....,need to level if you have bought them


-reduce the cost atleast -80k for the elemetnal schools and -15k for LM

-reduce the time needed ( 5 days offline for one school)



AND it was said enviroment sounds will be patched in SHORTLY after expansion....

JCatano
12-10-2010, 23:12
Meditation

The cost for offline skilling is fine, especially when you take into account that it's a supplement and not a replacement. I still think it was a terrible idea to implement it the first place, though. You guys should have just raised the gains. It was done once, so there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't have been done, again. People are going to macro, regardless, unless you go the way of EVE (that system sucks).

---

The names of players who are entering/leaving your clan city will now be displayed with colors corresponding to their political status towards your clan

*Sigh*

The majority of the forum community (which is much of the low playerbase) wants system messages completely removed. These are the times when I don't think you actually read what people desire. I have already sent feedback as to why the proposed idea of system messages not being seen if towers are destroyed will be 100% pointless. I'll paste it here...

Players will not risk warhulks/ships or waste cannons/battlespikes/siegehammers to do this, and here's why:

The system message will already be tripped if using battlespikes/siegehammers, and likely be tripped when using warhulks, ships, and cannons. After the attackers leave, the holding owners will simply repair the towers. That makes the proposed mechanic 100% pointless.

Tasos spoke of accountability in reference to the attackers in the past, but they already have that... Risking their gear when entering a holding. The holding owners do not have much accountability with regard to sustaining property, because they don't even have to be there in order to see if it's being invaded or damaged. The system messages holds their hand. Bad form.

Take the system messages completely out of the game, and now both sides have equal accountability. Not only that, but it now encourages clans with multiple holdings to actually POPULATE their cities and hamlets or at least check on them more often. It would also help smaller clans, newer players, and solo-types out. They'd get to take part in the invading/scouting/robbing/asset destruction fun more often without having the game watchdog over them for holding owners. The OWNERS would need to take care of the security issue; not the system messages. Currently, all anyone does is wait for those messages and that doesn't even always bring people in to defend. This mechanic, in addition to others, makes Darkfall very stagnate. As engaging as DF is advertised to be, some of the mechanics really cater to the lazy and handfed (system messages, instant travel, etc.).

The idea of the new system message mechanic is going to be a waste of code. Take them out completely, and you'll be onto something.

DeadlyHit
12-10-2010, 23:12
So is Macroing allowed ? seeing as that is the only viable way to skill up when not at your computer.

The Monarch
12-10-2010, 23:15
just give me new models!!

MAD-DUKE
12-10-2010, 23:15
So is Macroing allowed ? seeing as that is the only viable way to skill up when not at your computer.
I am not uptodate on the rules, but on Euro launch days, it was allowed as long as you did it outside guard zone npc cities and while at keys.

Morad
12-10-2010, 23:16
We again, ask you to keep your feedback constructive which means please test the system in detail before you get back to us with feedback.


Understood:
I invested 5k towards Witchcraft
WC prior to Meditation - 64.74

Meditation Start Time, Approx 15:30 EST

Current WC level 64.94 Time: 17:11 EST

Remaining Gold: 4602

I'll provide an update when the 4.6k runs out,
or I reach 75 WC (my goal).

Thx

Corizo
12-10-2010, 23:16
Overall too expensive.

From Earth Magic 44.27 to 45.24 with ~1077 Meditation Points (=gold) is too much. I don't mind the time factor, but up to 50 I would like to go to bed, wake up and have 10 points more. But damn, not for 10 000 Gold! (make it more like 1000 gold, it's for the newbs!)

Over Skill Level 50 it should be expensive, yes, but below 50 is too expensive right now. Won't be used.

Falesh
12-10-2010, 23:18
I think the meditation system should rise secondary skills and possibly int too when used on a spell school. My reasoning is that meditation is a great way to help newer/casual players get up to a decent level for PvP. If said players don't notice that the secondary skills are not raising then they may end up gimping themselves if they spend a lot of their already stretched funds.

dracoz
12-10-2010, 23:21
meditation should offer two options, slower cheaper skilling up and fast but more expensive skilling up. (I.E. like bronze, silver, gold meditation points)
so the newbs can use slow but cheap option and vets who are like just missing one school could use faster skilling up but will play much extra money.

now it's just ridiculous whit the money it cost and time it takes...

HeliosNorlund
12-10-2010, 23:25
problem is everyone knows get schools to 100 is easy since everything that is important is raise the spells to 75+ and to archive that for importants spells u would raise school multiple times to 100 without meditation

i think if u extend meditation to also be able skill up non combat spells with it it would be ok

to keep it fair it must stay same or even a bit (like 10% more )expensive as buy the reagents and cast selfbuffs active

u reduce getting pked risk thats easy worth the 10% more

and if u mediate selfbuffs u should also get school increase same as u would get by cast the selfbuffs active

i think this way meditation become usefull

even i as skilled out mage would maybe use it to skill up some semi important selfbuff

so over all mediation opened a door now u just need to place interesting tools inside that room

only schools is pretty empty and useless room

Kikker
12-10-2010, 23:26
Ok I like the idea of trying to take some of the mindless grind out of the game but meditation the way it is will not do that.
A. Too expensive: It would actually be much cheaper to just buy the regs and afk macro. I know afk macroing is against ToS but if its the better option thats what people are going to choose.
B. Too slow: Once again what would take days or weeks with meditation could be achieved in one night of afk macroing.
C. No stat gain: I may be incorrect on this but I'm fairly sure that skilling up like this does not build your intelligence, which is a HUGE part of the magic grind. Once again your character would be better off afk macroing because you would also be gaining in int.

The skill options are also another problem because besides maybe greater magic or Spellchanting the magic schools raise just fine with normal use. Its the spells themselves and then the intensifies and the intel grind that really need adjusting especially self buffs, debuffs, and buff others.

Overall I'm not happy with meditation, the only good thing about it is that your still gaining on those days you don't have time to set up a macro before you go to work.

xpiher
12-10-2010, 23:29
Cost may need to be adjusted, but it should cost up to 3x the amount of gold to level a school 1-100 than it does by actually playing the game

Allow people to train up defense skills (consitution, defense, rigor, etc) in the next patch because those are the most tedious skills to level

Allow people to train up the magic sub skills in the patch after that for similar cost to magic school gains

Make the stat gains from the skill gains be equal to 1/2 the gains of crafting for similar cost investment.

Kikker
12-10-2010, 23:32
Just thought of 1 good thing about this change

Its another way to take gold out of the game, which is a good thing.

I think I agree with the either slower but cheaper than macroing option or the faster but a ton more expensive option that someone previously mentioned. Currently its at slower and more expensive, which doesn't make much sense to me if your trying to get rid of afk macroing.

Morad
12-10-2010, 23:36
c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is faster then skilling up an advanced school.
.


Ok,
I needed to re-read this.

This feature will most definitely help out those players that are of very
low skill.

0-25
25-50

Not really designed for those players that are 75+
Unless they want to pay.

This feature was also not intended to replace;
"Game Play"
"Macroing"
"afk-Macroing"

You're Logged OFF, and you still gain skill in a particular area.
I'm sure there will be more skills available at a later date.

Since this feature is most reasonable priced for Skill Level;
0-25
25-50

Then this feature will benefit the New Player.
Got it !!

SEOINAGE
12-10-2010, 23:37
I would rather them keep the long duration but reduce the gold cost.
I of course would like to see things like mana efficiencies and things alike put in there as well as many other skills and abilities, I just hope they add them in frequently as they get them ready.
I also would like to see improvements to the interface, more detail, ability to see waht it would cost to bring you up to the next level, like from where you are to 50, be able to set it to stop at that point or any point value you choose would be even better. Other little details to the system, its very basic right now, which is fine in its current stage, but would like things to improve as time goes on.

moocat
12-10-2010, 23:39
I think the meditation cost is fine.
You should never have a system as this designed for newbies as they have to learn the game by playing it.

That means that being a newbie and leveling LM through offline skillgains shouldn't be feasible, just like it is now with the big cost.

I recently watched a new player start out and he got his LM up to buying GM in just about a day. (on his third day)
And thats with playing the actual game, learning the ropes of the game and getting enjoyment out of it.

However, if this system is not being used as much as hoped, I would implement an option to make a cheaper price for a much longer meditation duration.

Ruyn
12-10-2010, 23:40
I like the addition of this system. Cost, what skills, how long are all things up for debate.

It is nice in the sense that I'm sitting at work knowing that one day I will eventually get my eyerot.

xpiher
12-10-2010, 23:42
Way to Expensive, should cost 40-50k to max a school.

Thats about how much it cost to max a school by actvely playing the game. It should be 2x-3x that amount, maybe more since you aren't playing or risking anything to get the gains.

[PvP]
12-10-2010, 23:44
Before you add your feedback:
a) please keep it constructive and explain in detail what your concerns are.

b) The meditation system is NOT meant to replace playing Darkfall. It's meant to be complementary to your normal playing and skill up session. You shouldn't look at it as saving up the money to get a whole school from one to 100 in one go.

c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is faster then skilling up an advanced school.



A.) Cost and time are not very realistic, while anyone can agree it should not be the speed of online skilling, it certainly should be somewhat of the equivalence of macroing or.. whats the point?

B.) While this may be true, in its current state its being deemed largely useless. People want to gain skill. The game should not be focused on an extended character building experience. Let the players play the game. Let us PvP. Let us have fun, watching skillpoints slowly raise online or offline doesnt add depth to the game it simply turns away new players.

C.) A huge mistake, sure there should be a skillgain DR curve, but this is outrageous. 6~ full days offline for a final 1-2 points of a school makes next to no sense at all.

What I suggest you do is, take the cost and time of leveling 0-100. Double it. Use that data to change the current values into something usable. **RANDOM NUMBER EXAMPLE: If it takes "75k and 8hours for 0-100 greater magic, it should cost 150k and 16 hours" to do it through meditation.** Note again, the cost and time used is a pure example.

Again, skill gain should NOT be a focus of the game, PLEASE don't continue to make building a character a JOB. We play for fun, let us do the fun things in the game. Build us more fun things to do. Fix more bugs/expoits. Add more content. PLEASE.

GRCPan
12-10-2010, 23:44
Since I am not playing the game I can't test the features.
But I have some questions.
What is your intention with the offline skilling system?
What is it that AV wants to achieve with it?
What did you feel was missing and you filled that gap with offline skilling?

Thanks beforehand.

MrDDT
12-10-2010, 23:44
Considering that macroing AFK isnt still being punished with any kinda real force. Why would I ever want to pay 3x or even 4x the amount to max a school that I could just macro it? In 1/10th the time for 1/3rd the cost?

Why even have offline training anyways? Make it so if you PLAY the game you gain more instead.
Making the first 50 points go about 10x faster and for every 10 points after that drop an x, so 50 to 60 would be 9x faster, 60 to 70 would be 8x faster, 70 to 80 would be 7x faster, 80 to 90 would be 6x faster and 90 to 100 would be 5x faster.

Then for new content you can bring in more skill lines, and maybe higher caps.

Right now, its still way to hard for new players to get into the game let alone come up with the 150k per school line to train up.

Is it a start? Yes Im sure its better than what you had before but feeding someone that is starving droppings on the ground is better than nothing, its still a LONG way from being something anyone wants to do.

bmfof
12-10-2010, 23:45
Meh.

I'm not sure if that system was implamented to reduce the grind, or lessen macroing (or remove the need for it). It will fail in both.

First, if costs are reduced people will simply skill up everything that way because it's way simpler than setting up a macro or even playing the game. And seeing as to how a lot of people actually do hate the repetative grind (despite their claims to "enjoy" it), they'll end up raising everything available that way.

Further more, you can bet your ass gold selling is going to go through the roof with this change. Fuck, if you introduce that system for stat gains (say, 1 stat point per night for 10k) I can honestly see myself buying gold. And if you reduce the cost across the board, it gets even more tempting.

What does the above translate to: it's one thing if people are out in the world farming the gold to actually get those skills/stats/spells up through offline skilling. It's another if they just opt to buy the gold online and raise it that way. While the former is practically substituting character grinding with money grinding, the latter is going to result in less people in the world. And as anyone with half a brain can tell you, you can macro your way up to a decent character, but if you can't play with him you'll eventually hate the game because you suck despite your character.

Some other things:

I'd really like to know if AV are acknowledging the grind with this system, or are they still in denial? On one hand they wouldn't add a system to "supplament" character development while offline if they didn't think that it's slow. On the other, the rate with which you raise stuff offline can be exampletory for what AV percieves as the normal rate with which people should raise skills (specifically magic schools). And judging by what people say here, if it'll take you an avarage of one month to raise one school, that's just ridiculous. In fact, it's disheartening.


Yeah, just remove that shit and raise stat gains and be done with it.

AttilatheHun
12-10-2010, 23:45
Thats about how much it cost to max a school by actvely playing the game. It should be 2x-3x that amount, maybe more since you aren't playing or risking anything to get the gains.

You will be playing this game with about 10 people soon...

blob
12-10-2010, 23:47
I like how system for meditation works now that you have explaind it in this thread. Still dont know exect time/gold time to get magic school to 50 but maybe you should help new players by lowering price until 50.

keep up good work and focus on upgrades to banks and sidge system pls its game critical thing right now.

Kernir
12-10-2010, 23:47
Offline skilling is badly implemented its too expensive for what its supposed to do and takes too long to do what you want it to do.
Today alone ive done 50-70 in earth and 0-50 in Witchcraft and im a fairly new player, the type of guy that this system is aimed at and your giving us a system that becomes obsolite as the grind kicks in (50-75 takes longer than 0-50)

To sum up: Far too expensive, far too slow and by the time you need it, its useless because of the diminishing returns.

xpiher
12-10-2010, 23:50
;4681746']A.) Cost and time are not very realistic, while anyone can agree it should not be the speed of online skilling, it certainly should be somewhat of the equivalence of macroing or.. whats the point?


YOU AREN'T FACTOR IN RISK. FFs

lkx
12-10-2010, 23:50
Just another thing, if you are making this pointless because you're afraid that players would spend more time offline than online, then make meditation works both online and offline, this would change a lot of things, and put some sense into the current balance of the feature.

xpiher
12-10-2010, 23:52
You will be playing this game with about 10 people soon...

If you want to max out your character in a month then go play a different game. Plenty other games out there offer that type of game play

Kernir
12-10-2010, 23:53
If you want to max out your character in a month then go play a different game. Plenty other games out there offer that type of game play

Least we can logout there
but seriously this feature is designed to help new players but it costs a vet's wage, whats up with that?

DonQuitto
12-10-2010, 23:54
I like the tweaks you did with system chat,roll and arrow stacking

Meditation system is.... little lacking

a much detailed meditation GUI that would tell you how many skill points you are gonna get for that amount of med points you have invested and how long it would take would make a HUUUUGEEE difference.

i think the prices are very very high and the time is very very long, also i think you should decrease to Meditation point cap tpo like 10k - 50k.

also one idea that struck me was to have different types of meditation points, once you could use for cheaper but took longer and once that cost more but where lot quicker, or meditation points that would increase your skill for certain amount in a certain time (exmp: 5 skills in 2 hours of offline time )

i quess my suggestions might be to hard to implement but im just launching some options in the air :D

blob
12-10-2010, 23:55
Offline skilling is badly implemented its too expensive for what its supposed to do and takes too long to do what you want it to do.
Today alone ive done 50-70 in earth and 0-50 in Witchcraft and im a fairly new player, the type of guy that this system is aimed at and your giving us a system that becomes obsolite as the grind kicks in (50-75 takes longer than 0-50)

To sum up: Far too expensive, far too slow and by the time you need it, its useless because of the diminishing returns.

so you have done 50-70 earth and 0-50 witchcraft in one day and ppl still complain about the grind . its relly funny to me.

Kikker
12-10-2010, 23:56
Meh.

I'm not sure if that system was implamented to reduce the grind, or lessen macroing (or remove the need for it). It will fail in both.

First, if costs are reduced people will simply skill up everything that way because it's way simpler than setting up a macro or even playing the game. And seeing as to how a lot of people actually do hate the repetative grind (despite their claims to "enjoy" it), they'll end up raising everything available that way.

Further more, you can bet your ass gold selling is going to go through the roof with this change. Fuck, if you introduce that system for stat gains (say, 1 stat point per night for 10k) I can honestly see myself buying gold. And if you reduce the cost across the board, it gets even more tempting.

What does the above translate to: it's one thing if people are out in the world farming the gold to actually get those skills/stats/spells up through offline skilling. It's another if they just opt to buy the gold online and raise it that way. While the former is practically substituting character grinding with money grinding, the latter is going to result in less people in the world. And as anyone with half a brain can tell you, you can macro your way up to a decent character, but if you can't play with him you'll eventually hate the game because you suck despite your character.

Some other things:

I'd really like to know if AV are acknowledging the grind with this system, or are they still in denial? On one hand they wouldn't add a system to "supplament" character development while offline if they didn't think that it's slow. On the other, the rate with which you raise stuff offline can be exampletory for what AV percieves as the normal rate with which people should raise skills (specifically magic schools). And judging by what people say here, if it'll take you an avarage of one month to raise one school, that's just ridiculous. In fact, it's disheartening.


Yeah, just remove that shit and raise stat gains and be done with it.

I agree with everything you've said here especially about the gold selling. The chinese farmers are lovin this patch right now.

xpiher
12-10-2010, 23:56
Least we can logout there
but seriously this feature is designed to help new players but it costs a vet's wage, whats up with that?

It doesn't cost a vet's wages. Getting from 1-50 cost less than getting from 50-100.

I just started doing Spell Chanting

Spell ChantingPoints needed to max skill:54974

I started with 88 or 87 level in spell chanting: I've used less than 400 points to gain 1-2 levels.

Kernir
12-10-2010, 23:57
so you have done 50-70 earth and 0-50 witchcraft in one day and ppl still complain about the grind . its relly funny to me.

i dont complain about it, i complain when they add a system to help new players such as myself, yet even when ive had help with money i cant afford it :sly:

sc0r0wnz
12-10-2010, 23:58
meditation cost is close to same as levelling it with debuff, it only is slower :(

also 1 school from 1> 50 takes you 1 day irl, then 50> 100 takes you 30 days with meditation offline? wtf

OldPlayer
12-10-2010, 23:59
The system is broken.

It is still cheaper/faster to macro your skills than it is to use this "offline system".

If you stay in game and macro you have a small risk of getting ganked depending on where you setup. If you have the resources to marco all night, you have the resources to lose if you get ganked randomly from time to time, so, no big deal.

So long as people can still macro, this system will not be used.

You made the skill gains too expensive, and you made them take far too long.

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 00:01
Current implementation fails to achieve the 3 goals Tasos stated this feature is for.

Meditation should according to Tasos

a) curb macroing
b) lessen the gap between newbies and vets
c) take away repetetive tasks

If any then then the cost on the current implementation of meditation will have benefits for veteran players to probably achieve goal c).
The current costs makes this feature not attractive for newbs cause its faster and with lower costs to just macro to catch up with the vets.
Having just gains on school leaves the newb with not a single spell at competitive level after haveing spend an insane amount of gold and time on a school. After he is ready with the school he need to start again grind the spells and the subsequent schools. Also that what he will uses in the real combat and what makes this spells strong and competetive comes not from spending months and several 100k on gold from meditation.
Not that newbs have thousands of gold to their disposal on top of the immense things they need to hunt to closing the gap.
Short if then meditation will serve those who don't needed and wasn't targeted with. The vert who just need his last school from 90 - 100.
Not the newb who needs to close a gap without macro, thats sure.

OldPlayer
12-11-2010, 00:02
If the purpose of this system was to get back a very very very small handful of players who do not understand the game and its mechanics. Epic win.

If the purpose of this system was to provide a meaningful way for casual players to close the gap between themselves and macro-vets. Epic fail.

lkx
12-11-2010, 00:04
...the big cost could just increase the gap between grinders/farmers and normal players....

I want to add another thing about this:
I know that this feature couldn't ever have been something about getting rid of macoers, this just can't happen. The only point of this feature could have been about relieve the need to focus all the way on character progression for months, and being able to play the game in a funnier way.
An hypotetical excessive farming required for offline meditation would defeat this point. Who doesn't care about this, just wouldn't need this addition, so it would be, again, pointless.

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 00:07
Since I am not playing the game I can't test the features.
But I have some questions.
What is your intention with the offline skilling system?
What is it that AV wants to achieve with it?
What did you feel was missing and you filled that gap with offline skilling?

Thanks beforehand.

Tasos explained it here


The purpose of offline skilling is curbing macroing, giving newer players a better chance to close the gap, and to cut down on some of the tedious repetitive tasks that exist in the game.

OldPlayer
12-11-2010, 00:07
Basically, if you are already a vet and have a ton of gold, this works great for you to skill up some minor spells that you didnt want to take the time to mess with.

If you are a casual gamer/new player. This does nothing meaningful for you.

Let me clarify something,

THIS GAME NEEDS SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT REDUCE THE MACRO-VET/CASUAL GAMER GAP OR THE PLAYERBASE WILL NEVER INCREASE!!!

alazyguy
12-11-2010, 00:10
170k and 30 days from 1-100.

That's only 5.7k a day.

[PvP]
12-11-2010, 00:18
YOU AREN'T FACTOR IN RISK. FFs

There's next to no risk in leveling on certain mobs or macroing in relative safe areas. Why should there be huge risk associated with character development? I do preach Risk vs Reward but certainly not in skill gaining, that's just stupid. You want people to be forever behind? What purpose does that serve.

vanyok
12-11-2010, 00:23
The price needs to be "Scaled" somehow.
As of right now you're making it super difficult for new players to catch up.

Offline skilling needs to be very cheap at lower skill levels and get more expensive as a skill gets to 50-75-100 level.
Let new players use the new feature while they're killing goblins and trolls please.

I hope what I post here gets through as a suggestion to AV.
Thank you.

xpiher
12-11-2010, 00:24
The only change that probably should be made is the time it takes to get to 100 in the school. The current system says appox 30 days and if that means FULL DAYS then the time is far too long. It should take 300-400hrs to max a spell school. This is not playing the game for 10hrs - 13.33hrs a day for 30 days.

Doing that change, if that isn't the current time frame which appears to be the case, would actually help the vet/newbie causal/hardcore gap as the system would only benefit the intended targets.

xpiher
12-11-2010, 00:25
The price needs to be "Scaled" somehow.
As of right now you're making it super difficult for new players to catch up.

Offline skilling needs to be very cheap at lower skill levels and get more expensive as a skill gets to 50-75-100 level.
Let new players use the new feature while they're killing goblins and trolls please.

I hope what I post here gets through as a suggestion to AV.
Thank you.

That is the way it currently works. Leveling from 1-50 is about 1/3 of the total cost of getting it to 100

Morad
12-11-2010, 00:26
I do not believe that the Mediation feature was intended to;
Replace Game Play
Curb Macroing
or be as cost effective as the latter.

Rather, another attempt (HP adjustments),
to allow Newer Players to "Bridge the Gap" while they are logged off.

I think it's fair to say, that those players, who left their
computer on for 23.5hrs straight, were expecting an equal
replacement method of skill gain with this new feature.

It seems that AV did see all the Posts regarding "noob-vet" gap.

Shhh
12-11-2010, 00:28
I think you should allow offline skilling of stats up to level 75 and leave how it is now for the rest.

GRCPan
12-11-2010, 00:31
Tasos explained it here

I was talking about the true intentions, since in it's current form I don't see it even remotely achieving that.

fatgram10
12-11-2010, 00:38
Copied and pasted from my other thread (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=271062)...


Consider the cost of making Meditation too expensive: offline skill-gain is under-utilized. Now, consider the cost of making Meditation too cheap: nobody plays the game to raise the Meditate-able skills anymore, making the game world seem less populated.

Too slow: players frustrated with progression rate. Too fast: any mistakes made with regard to balancing or exploiting offline skill-gains are worsened by the hastened rate at which they occur.

Too limited: players only get to offline-gain a certain subset of skills. Too inclusive: AV has no chance to test the effects of offline-gains on the population before mistakenly letting them offline-gain skills like Enchanting, Shipbuilding, or any other skill that they might not ever want to allow for offline-gains.

Look at *every* MMO ever released... most progression went from harder to easier. When implementing changes, you have to err on the side of too difficult rather than realize too late that you implemented a feature that made the game too easy and then take it away from players after the fact (holy crap, imagine the forum-fall QQers if that happened). Rest assured AV will gradually introduce changes that help players better utilize offline skill-gains (exactly like they've promised to do).

Shame on you forum-fallers that can't see past concerns like "I want my toon to be stronger than other players" to the real issues that designers have to worry about when implementing features like: defending against exploits, maintaining balance, and avoiding the need to "nerf" features that were implemented in a way that made the game too easy.

schlock
12-11-2010, 00:43
I threw some points at air magic just to get that last two points to 75.
I think the rate at which it is climbing is rather fast considering I have been logged on the majority of the day.
I didn't bother recording the numbers because I'm well aware that it is meant to be supportive and not all inclusive. If I really want something fast, I know I need to work for it.

I'd say from what little experience I have had with it, it's just fine.
I hope it just stays to schools rather than spells. I like the fact that if someone wants stone skin, they can budget for it over time rather than level a spell they will never use.
Make us earn the spells we want.

I'd say it's working as intended. But I can comprehend what I read.:cool:

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 00:48
Meditation system is basically garbage.... 53k to gain 15 points in GM... I think most people will stick to macroing. This dosent change anything.

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 00:48
if you want something fast and cheap while afk then there is more rewarding systems in place then meditation.

kingllama
12-11-2010, 00:50
First of all, the patch was about the meditation system only, bug fixes like mentioned were added additionally. Thanks for keeping this in mind.

We again, ask you to keep your feedback constructive which means please test the system in detail before you get back to us with feedback.

Depending on how high your skill is and what school you are focusing on, your numbers are going to show different numbers because the skill-ups are following diminishing returns: the higher your skill us the less gain you will get per gold.

Thank you :)

Constructive feedback.
Think of a casual player starting up making only like 5-10k a day for even himself gear,regs, and other things needed. 2-3 hours of playtime it's not even going to be worth it to spend on trying to get his skill up using meditation he can spend about a quarter of what how much it costs to buy meditation points on regs and level 4-5 times as fast in day of just 2-3 hours playtime.

It's need to boosted and the price needs to be dropped.

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 00:50
Meditation system is basically garbage.... 53k to gain 15 points in WC... I think most people will stick to macroing. This dosent change anything.

Fixed mistake.

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 00:51
if you want something fast and cheap while afk then there is more rewarding systems in place then meditation.

I really dont even want this system in game.. I think its lame to have an AFK method of skill game. But if your gonna do it atleast make it worth it. The people that this would help the most can't even afford it.

kingllama
12-11-2010, 00:54
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q299/captdreaded/Desktop2.png


Huge image i know. Yes i was looking at tasos facebook it's his birthday.

kingllama
12-11-2010, 01:00
Instead of gains of .01 at a time why not .10 it will lessen the time and keep people happy and it will be well worth it.

Morad
12-11-2010, 01:00
Meditation system is basically garbage.... 53k to gain 15 points in GM... I think most people will stick to macroing. This dosent change anything.

What is the starting Skill level for 15pts gain ?
This is important !!

xenom
12-11-2010, 01:02
i think mediation is basically done nicely if gain from 0-50 is faster and therefor cheaper (i can't personally test this) so a newer player gets some OK gains BETWEEN his playsessions.

the balance act between having the cost right is surely not easy..basically it should cost less compared macroing to prevent afk macroing as much as possible yet we know how well the afk macroing "police" is working..
so it has basically been so much of a standard that you get cries about mediation that it empties the cities and you can't "get" regs from afk macroes there, take no risk etc..when basically there should be no afk macroing at all - so i think go ahead and make the costs less by just a bit compared to macroing it with the cheapest spell :P

i as one who plays since release and has macroed hardly anything sees how much you are behind after some time, especially with stats - yay 75 int finally a few days ago :)
luckely i don't care and have fun nevertheless as i am a group player and do not care if i take 1 more or less dmg in a 1v1.

still it's basically just that game mechanics should encourage the "that's how it's meant to be played" stuff and prevent the "shady" stuff..in DF it is sadly often the other way round (be it afk macroing, war declaring on npc city clans and the like...99% the easy and exploiting way gets the rewards in the end with no strict changes following)

improvements i'd like to see:

-i'd like to have something similar for stats as well.

-maybe make it possible as an option (!) so that you can train with (highly) increased time with (highly) decreased cost so someone without mega funds and especially newer players can go ahead or so that someone who does not have a lot of time for a period and therefor can't farm a lot of money can go ahead and train a little bit.

-surely it is stated but still.. i hope you add on this soon, especially buffs, buff others and stuff like that with a reasonable cost/time. also add melee/archery stuff as well.

-stats should also increase from it.

-adjust cost like stated above..less to macroing to prevent afk macroing once and for all. noone should need to do this crap.

Alberton
12-11-2010, 01:02
The offline system is fine.

Will cost roughly 4k/day to gain 2.0 % in a spell school.
That sounds like a reasonable number.

It would probably cost me 4k in regs to gain 2% in a spell school otherwise anyway.

Its not meant to be an instant win.

A german friend of mine once told me a story about firewood.
They said: it heats you twice, once when you collect it, once when you burn it.
This system works the same way, it provides an incentive to pve for cash, and while you are pveing you will be levelling something, so effectively you level twice from using the system.

I dont want ezymode, I'm happy with this new system, well done AV.

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 01:07
What is the starting Skill level for 15pts gain ?
This is important !!

Yes and no.. Yes because ya it costs more the higher you are. No because you don't even gain stats, which are the biggest bitch or any of the additions (durable spells ect...) Plus it takes way longer and costs way more than it would take just doing it for real... I'm just wondering who this is supposed to be helping. It's not gonna help noobs thats for sure.


P.S. from 87-100 WC over 53 K to answer you question.

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 01:09
Yes and no.. Yes because ya it costs more the higher you are. No because you don't even gain stats, which are the biggest bitch or any of the additions (durable spells ect...) Plus it takes way longer and costs way more than it would take just doing it for real... I'm just wondering who this is supposed to be helping. It's not gonna help noobs thats for sure.


P.S. from 87-100 WC over 53 K to answer you question.

DAMN LET US EDIT IN THIS SECTION!! lol. Also I do think it SHOULD be more expensive and take longer since you are doing no work, but this is a bit overboard IMO

Mippins
12-11-2010, 01:10
Ok my thoughts on the med system is a total waste in its current form.

Here is why, (correct me if im wrong but its targeted for newer player) your excepting a newer player to firstly have the kind of cash. I dont many new characters(unless they get awesome choas chest or friends) who have more then lets say 20k. That being said 200k is way to much. Another point is 33 days or close to take a skill from 1-100 thats a lot of time of not playing for that to happening with no stats or spells raised in that school. Only thing this manages to do is unlock intensifies and higher spells. Only a vet or a newer players sponsored by a vet could afford this or would even think about using it.

Here is a way to change it so its more beneficial to newer players. You would have to add a function to calculate total skill points. For an example:

Player A has lets say
80 skill in fire magic
firebolt to 50
fireball to 80

Player A would have a total of 80+80+50 skill points = to 210 points
(obviously this isnt including a way to calculate higher spells, you would have to add that in someway)

Player B has:
30 fire magic
30 firebolt

Player B would have 30 + 30 skill points = 60 points
He would there fore be a less developed character then A and this would allow him cheaper med points per gold ratio and able to skill up faster using the med system. That way it helps newer players more then vets but they are still able to use the system if they would like.

Please comment on it if you like just a rough suggestion

Mippins
12-11-2010, 01:11
double post sorry should say here is why its bad

Styrr Chipatama
12-11-2010, 01:12
Actually, the "time" it takes to level WOULD BE FINE IF it worked while we're online aswell.

$id Viciou$
12-11-2010, 01:15
I haven't tested it yet but I can already tell that even though I do not macro, if I rerolled I probably would not use meditation at all, except to aid in getting spell chanting and maybe witchcraft. The rest of the schools are extremely easy to level already and as a player who plays the game as intended, I did not feel that I need any assistance in obtaining 100 in any schools other than spell chanting and witchcraft because these do not noticeably raise by just playing the game. It feels like I have to go out of the way to raise these schools and not just go around doing whatever I want and watch them raise as I do things like the other schools.

I did a trial account a few months ago for fun to see how the experience would be different now. Before my 24-hour shield wore off (and I had about 7 hours left on it too), I had almost 75 Lesser Magic, 60 Greater Magic, and if I had about 10k more money I would have had 75 WitchCraft as well before the shield ran off. I ran out of money to buy the regs to level witchcraft the fastest (by debuffing animals is the fastest now).

If I rerolled right now. I would probably go AFK swimming instead of using your offline skilling system.

I cannot really tell you what I think of it all until you share what additional changes are definitely coming in the future. There has been talk of reducing the buff grind. Is this how you are intending to deal with the buff grind?

When it comes down to it. It looks too expensive for me to ever use it but I will test it anyways just to be sure.

I think that a lot more people would have been happy about offline stat or skill gain instead. I don't need help with schools and never did besides spell chanting. I do need help getting Dexterity. It seems that there is no way that I can cap DEX without capping all of my other stats first. I have been playing this character casually for over a year and I only have 50 Dex, but the rest of my stats are fine (but I have always used mostly melee and archery) and some are max or close to. I think that offline stat progression would help out a lot more than schools. I strongly would be against someone able to bring their stats anywhere close to the cap with this system though, just help to get to 60 or 80 would be plenty.

As it is now, it seems that you cannot really choose which stats are going to be capped first. I have tried to focus on Dex at times while other stats are being raised faster when I am not even focusing on them and trying to raise my DEX.

Hekkr
12-11-2010, 01:16
2DAYS And 10HOURS to go from 94 GM to 100 GM.

Thats pretty retarded. Especially the cost. It levels up quicker/costs less if you actually use it for a hours.

Morad
12-11-2010, 01:19
Yes and no.. Yes because ya it costs more the higher you are. No because you don't even gain stats, which are the biggest bitch or any of the additions (durable spells ect...) Plus it takes way longer and costs way more than it would take just doing it for real... I'm just wondering who this is supposed to be helping. It's not gonna help noobs thats for sure.


P.S. from 87-100 WC over 53 K to answer you question.


Ok, so if a player wants to MAX out (starting from zero), in a Magic School, that would be the cost.
Yeah, a lot of gold.

I was more under the impression that the Mediation feature was a means
of gaining skill , while offline, and not playing the game at all.
A supplement, to a players Game Play time.


Not a replacement for normal Game Play or players who no longer
want to Macro.


It seems that that is where the frustration lies.

The "expectation of the offline skilling would be a alternative way
of skilling up.

Where as , it is more of a supplement to skill gain.

Sleepwalker
12-11-2010, 01:20
2DAYS And 10HOURS to go from 94 GM to 100 GM.

Thats pretty retarded. Especially the cost. It levels up quicker/costs less if you actually use it for a hours.

the POINT is to PLAY THE GAME!!!!! - this is just something for people to continue raising skills if they "CANT" leave there PC on for hours.......or risk losing the regs of being in-game all day macroing.......

Kernir
12-11-2010, 01:28
the POINT is to PLAY THE GAME!!!!! - this is just something for people to continue raising skills if they "CANT" leave there PC on for hours.......or risk losing the regs of being in-game all day macroing.......

No the point is to curb macroing
this is not only more expensive (ALOT more) it takes 10-20 times as long as just macroing. i could macro in a town and die twice and still end up with more gains at lower cost than with meditation

and no its not for people who cant afk swim and if you cant afford to macro then you certainly cant afford to meditate

xpiher
12-11-2010, 01:29
Actually, the "time" it takes to level WOULD BE FINE IF it worked while we're online aswell.

This. Reduce the time to 300-400hrs (10-13.33hr/day for 30 days)

Floyd
12-11-2010, 01:30
As far as improving the meditation system, as another poster said, include more details. Even if I don't buy enough points it still tells me how many days until I get to 100 skill. It should tell me how long until I am out of points instead.

Also, you should be able to set a school to train to say 50 and it tell you how much and how long. Basing everything on 100 is not exactly helpful.

But it really does not matter because it is still much much better to macro instead of logging off. Especially considering your spells level up and so does your efficiencies and stats.

As the system is now it makes more sense to ALWAYS have it working playing or not.

williamfield
12-11-2010, 01:35
Take out the cost of gold at all to use offline skill. instead you gain offline skill time by actually going out and fighting. For example you must be in combat to gain offline skill time, when you log out after playing you may have gained 2 hours offline skill up time. to be used each skill would take a different amount of time to skill up based off the skill and level of that skill you are at.

a simple skill of 0-25 would take 6 hours offline skill time. 26-50 would take 10 hours offline skill time etc.... of course these numbers would have to be adjusted by someone who knows the game much better then me.

then you could add gold into it if you pay X amount of gold on top of your offline skill then it will decrease the amount of offline skill time needed to be spent ex: 0-25 takes 6 hours offline skill time pay 1000 gold will take 5 hours - pay 2000 gold takes 4 hours. then say you are trying to go from 50-75 it would take alot more time but also cost alot of gold to cut down the time. There must be a cap at which you can add gold to decrease the amount of time so as to not make it instant. once again all these numbers will need to be adjusted and tested with real numbers and by people who know alot more about the game then me.

you may have to remove the feature of hitting other players to skill up so macroing is removed and people actually go out and do stuff in the world.

xpiher
12-11-2010, 01:39
Just give us the formula. It will remove all speculation and guess work from the system and we'll be able to give real feed back. Right now, people are basing it off the time it takes to get maxed only, instead of the time it takes to get to each level from a previous level.

smoke2000
12-11-2010, 01:42
system setup is decently thought out, but the prices/time is a bit harsh. Since this would mostly be useful to new players joining now or having joined recently, they can't afford to do this unless they have a friend playing that sponsors them. For veterans it has no use, because magic schools are the easiest to level and a lot of us already have them to 100 anyway, but even for the 1 or 2 that aren't 100 , but rather 80'ish, I would still not use the system because of it being insanely expensive.

Overall a good idea, but out of fear, it has been made useful for a few occasions that maybe only target 5% of the server's population.
I'm afraid this one is for the pile of forgotten features.

Morad
12-11-2010, 01:42
No the point is to curb macroing
this is not only more expensive (ALOT more) it takes 10-20 times as long as just macroing. i could macro in a town and die twice and still end up with more gains at lower cost than with meditation

and no its not for people who cant afk swim and if you cant afford to macro then you certainly cant afford to meditate


I don't agree.
Macroing is player controlled, and by choice.

Some players feel a need to macro, and other players do not.

My best guess is, that the Meditation feature was added as a
Supplement for Skill gain for those players who Logged Off, and
are no longer gaining skill during Game Play.

Just my opinion.

Hekkr
12-11-2010, 01:45
the POINT is to PLAY THE GAME!!!!! - this is just something for people to continue raising skills if they "CANT" leave there PC on for hours.......or risk losing the regs of being in-game all day macroing.......

I have enough time to play the game.. Why would i leave my character offline when it takes this long to level up a MAGIC SCHOOL which is SO EASY to get up WITH LESS AMOUNT OF GOLD and ALOT LESS of play time...

It should cope with people being so far ahead and people that can macro and do macro.

Not make me play the game even more. It's just me testing the feature. who gives a shit about 6 points of GM anyway rofl.

5%Luck
12-11-2010, 01:47
1st compare the new feature to rest XP or offline skilling in eve or power hour,8*8. If ya know what 8*8 is i feel for ya!

This makes skilling "those ^ skills" a no contest.

Those skills player strive to achieve

Heh 8*8...

You know what I mean by defining ones avatar skilling.

No contest....


The stress of grinding doesn't typify an avatar it defines one

$id Viciou$
12-11-2010, 01:48
meditation should offer two options, slower cheaper skilling up and fast but more expensive skilling up. (I.E. like bronze, silver, gold meditation points)
so the newbs can use slow but cheap option and vets who are like just missing one school could use faster skilling up but will play much extra money.

now it's just ridiculous whit the money it cost and time it takes...

This is a great idea.

I would probably use it if I rerolled if this were the case.

I still havent tested it yet though and nobody else has really either so .. .

Kernir
12-11-2010, 01:52
This is a great idea.

I would probably use it if I rerolled if this were the case.

I still havent tested it yet though and nobody else has really either so .. .

because the rent is too damn high!
but im not spending any of my money *hoping* that ill get semi decent gains when offline, when i could just afk swim for stats and spend my money on actual gains that i know for a fact will work and wont bankrupt me

Floyd
12-11-2010, 01:54
Also, make it so when our friends log on we can control-click or shift click thier name to add them to group.

Laxe
12-11-2010, 01:55
why spend 5k for 2 lvls

go kill mobs with bold for 30min = 2lvls and 5-20k
spend that money to macro while you sleep + 5-10 more lvls

offline skilling is pretty much useless bandaid fix that doesnt even hold onto the wound

why they spend so much programing in it no fucking idea but its sure as fuck that av loves to spend resources on useless features

OM NOM NOM
12-11-2010, 01:56
The offline system is fine.

Will cost roughly 4k/day to gain 2.0 % in a spell school.
That sounds like a reasonable number.

It would probably cost me 4k in regs to gain 2% in a spell school otherwise anyway.

Its not meant to be an instant win.

You clearly do not know what your saying. Do you understand that 2% is 2 points? and do you understand that 4k in regs is about 1k regs which is also 500-1000 casts. If you think that it takes that much to lvl 2 points your INSANE. Maybe like 98-100, but not at any other level is it remotely close to that. I would also like to point out that 4k per 2 points = 200k for 100 points. You can max most magic schools in a day for like a fifth or less of that at your local crog.

Laxe
12-11-2010, 01:57
forgot to mention,

built ingame macro program that keeps macroing with loged in char even when you turn off pc would benefit the game 100 times more + make it risk vs reward

in uo everyone macroed and it didnt ruin the game why should it ruin darkfall

please av stop listening to stupid people on this forum but maybe spend few hours a day to play your own game

Rochus
12-11-2010, 02:00
Meditation cost is too high. The meditation screen itself has way too little information. I have Spell chanting at 61. I want to get it to 75. Why can't it tell me how much that will cost and how long it will take? I know i could use sacrifice on wildlife for a few hours, but that wouldn't be replacing the tedious tasks often found in the game or w/e the quote was.

Most of what you did in the patch was positive though.

not been online yet, but if the prices are correct i probably wouldn´t pay it even if it goes from 0-100 in one night, aim again av

Rochus
12-11-2010, 02:04
not been online yet, but if the prices are correct i probably wouldn´t pay it even if it goes from 0-100 in one night, aim again av

absolutely totally useless for newbs!
and not even a nice try, more like another desaster, those numbers seem to me like a emergency fix, not like an idea born out of the creative mind of some developers, r ur developers too hamsters?

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 02:07
The current overall skills of the person who is gonna use meditation should be counted in to compute indiviual prices according to the overall skills.

For a newbie who just opened up and bought his first school a elemental school for example should cost way less and for the vet who's the last school he need to have them all it should cost a lot more.
Dunno what factor is fair ..6x - 8x probably ?!

Scrubby Bear
12-11-2010, 02:09
Patch was largely a joke. Waiting for a real patch (darkfall 2012).

melipone
12-11-2010, 02:12
If its going to have an impact on the grind, or the time it takes players to close the gap then it needs to be quick and cheap to 75 at least. Its only the actual spell school so you only get access to being able to purchase the spells, nothing else. Access to the same spells as the other players should be a minimum requirement with no cap. You won't even use the spells as well as others without intensifies or int.

The gold and time sink is still prohibitive for 90% of the players who would play DF. This game should be teeming with players and it still can have a portion of the players that left if AV will just cut them some slack with the tedious repetitive leveling

TLDR; Quick and cheap to 75, then it will be worth using and AV can have people sticking with the game rather than subbing for a month and going away again.

spd
12-11-2010, 02:49
meditation sucks: spend 200k and 1 mount for 1 magic school at 100 without passive skill and stats gain ... lol another fail feature

Suncross
12-11-2010, 02:53
I am about to check out the meditation, but I think the enchantment fix was pretty bomb. I remember hours of duel nights that much more time will be saved now.

Methows
12-11-2010, 03:03
- Very Expensive !!!
- Useless for noobs and veterans atm...
- The time for each school could be reduced to five days.
- I think 100k would be a fair value for each school.

This needs to be fixed soon, I have new players in my clan, many of them are discouraged because they were anxiously awaiting the patch.

Temko Firewing
12-11-2010, 03:08
My personal view on expensves as i've seen is that overal, meditiation on magic school is about Twice to expensive.

the time needed i've not yet had a chance to test, but the cost as i see it for higher levels is extremely discouraging and even at lower levels it's prohibitively expensive.

Never players will not have the resources to do this, and veteran players will not use this due to the extreme cost.

suggestion on improving the system:
- Incorporate Subskill (Mana efficiency, Intensify, etc...) into the meditation of the main-school.
- Incorporate the coresponding statgains (intelligence for schools)
- Lower cost by by 25-40%.

these 3 things would make this a nice addition.

Krej
12-11-2010, 03:13
reduce meditation cost alot/ fix ur grind

spd
12-11-2010, 03:13
suggestion on improving the system:
- Incorporate Subskill (Mana efficiency, Intensify, etc...) into the meditation of the main-school.
- Incorporate the coresponding statgains (intelligence for schools)
- Lower cost by by 25-40%.

these 3 things would make this a nice addition.

and reduce time

Temko Firewing
12-11-2010, 03:17
and reduce time

not yet had a chance to test time. will see tommorow, got 10k points going overnight.

Suncross
12-11-2010, 03:18
reduce meditation cost alot/ fix ur grind

no



and reduce time

and reduce no

You aren't supposed to use meditation to level your skills primarily. You log in, make 20k, spend 5 on pvp and grinding, and throw 10 in meditation. It's a crutch, and a good one.

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 03:34
no




and reduce no

You aren't supposed to use meditation to level your skills primarily. You log in, make 20k, spend 5 on pvp and grinding, and throw 10 in meditation. It's a crutch, and a good one.

No

he should be able to use meditation as a mean to lower the gap to your schools for example.
While he trains water while playing for example he should get fire over night and his offtime. So next time he meets you he can use shards AND fireball on you instead to you doing it him for the 100 time on him..

BelegStrongbow
12-11-2010, 03:41
I am probably quiting darkfall because of this Meditation system.


It is completely WRONG. It only promotes Macroing even more, it will further scare away new players.

My Water Magic is 75. To get it to 100 its would be 100k. Thats insane and just promoted Gold farming.


Meditation Changes:

1) Needs to Have State Gains (Intel)
2) Needs to also Skill up Masteries (intensify, Mana efficiency, etc)
3) Needs to skill up the actual Spells (primarily Utilities)
4) Needs to be Equivalent to Reagent Cost (or else everyone will just macro)

MortalZero
12-11-2010, 03:47
I am probably quiting darkfall because of this Meditation system.


It is completely WRONG. It only promotes Macroing even more, it will further scare away new players.

My Water Magic is 75. To get it to 100 its would be 100k. Thats insane and just promoted Gold farming.


Meditation Changes:

1) Needs to Have State Gains (Intel)
2) Needs to also Skill up Masteries (intensify, Mana efficiency, etc)
3) Needs to skill up the actual Spells (primarily Utilities)
4) Needs to be Equivalent to Reagent Cost (or else everyone will just macro)

Let it be 1,5 the reagent costs (cause of the safety) but not 5x..the time cost is already the penalty in the equation..forcing you to wait a month to complete a school..

Adûn_East
12-11-2010, 03:54
lol

Bleys Harlequin
12-11-2010, 04:29
After have a look at the Meditation system, I am very happy with its implementation, and it looks to only need slight adjustments. The exaggerated cries that it needs to be greatly reduced in cost and time are simply the typical knee-jerk reactions of the 'Want it now' section of the Darkfall community. I'm all for the newbs catching the vets, etc, but it needs time for adequate analysis and possible adjustment.

As a supplimentary skilling up method, the meditation system will work very well. Skill-up while you play, macro a little if you desire, and still increase while offline, has certainly lessened the feeling of grind for me even though it's only been implemented. The time and gold factor will need to be discussed later, once we can see how all this interacts with each other.

Having new skills added down the track will make this system even better, and I am looking forward to those.

syryel
12-11-2010, 04:42
good work AV. Meditaion is fine as it is now. A smal bonus if you are offline but the main work the player have to do himself.

Yes, it's so wonderful to see AFK swimmers and macro casting, what great player work. I cannot AFK swim and macro for hours on my computer (used for work) and so my stats are MUCH weaker than those who can. I have done many comparisons and it's just a clear fact.

SEANMCAD
12-11-2010, 04:44
meditation seems attractive to me. I dont have calculations on how much it would cost to level without it so I dont have a baseline but in general I feel it should cost more then the regants it would cost to level it or as much as the most expensive cast to level it (around that).

I have above 75 in two schools I am intrested in and the only spell left I am intrested in is at 100 so I very well may use mediation.

Having said that, for me its not a deal breaker either way. Most of my player stats I have gotten simply by playing the game as I like to play anyway. There are few exception, spell chanting being one of them.

Rokstarr
12-11-2010, 04:44
Dole out tons of meditation points as part of quest rewards. A quest to kill 3 artic bears shouldn't give 5k gold, but theres no reason it can give out 10k med points. This includes dailies.

Rokstarr
12-11-2010, 04:45
Dole out tons of meditation points as part of quest rewards. A quest to kill 3 artic bears shouldn't give 5k gold, but theres no reason it can't give out 10k med points. This includes dailies.

Fixed.... no edit button :(

syryel
12-11-2010, 04:51
It is much more intelligent to actually cast and therefore gain spell points (a buff for example) and Int. New players should not use Meditation unless they really have to go offline.

There is no incentive.

A good offline skilling system would be very beneficial :
• would save server bandwidth and load for active players ;
• would save computer usage for players running Darkfall AFK for hours ;
• would reduce the pain of grinding (which just killed my game after over a year of hard work grinding. I loved the game, but had to stop).

Chuck Zitto
12-11-2010, 05:22
Meditation should have things that are actually hard to gain. Ive had spell schools at 100 for probably about a year. It really doesnt take much time to get a school to 100 besides maybe spellchant and witchcraft. The fact you dont gain in any spells or intensifies or stats is kinda fail. I dont like the new color system messages as most vets all agree system messages should be removed completly. Everything else was pretty much bug fixes.

Thras
12-11-2010, 05:42
I'll admit, they need to tone the price down, and then add a way for newbies to get a discount, better yet, make medpoints a reward for quests.

That said, I cant believe people are quitting over this. It may not have made the game better, but there is no way that it made things worse (unless the players make it worse by overreaction and QQ as they currantly are, which is their fault).

My hope, is that with this implemented, they will start VERY strongly enforcing the no afk macro/skilling policy, basically making this the point where the 99% of cheaters either decide to play without cheats, or face major stat/skill loss.

The sad fact as proven by the majority of the community, is that they will directly violate the TOS without even blushing. The worse fact, is that the GMs rarely deal with this.

This system gives them the out to say "I guess i could do without macros now" but we all know they'll keep it up without a very strong initiative being taken by the GMs. Its Human nature to be absolutly awful and immoral given any option. (as proven by the fact that 99% of the community can justify cheating if they feel like it)

/rantover

Take what you can from that, i know that 99% of the community will be very negative towards this post for very obvious reasons, after all, who would oppose anti-cheating except a cheater?

raapnaap
12-11-2010, 05:44
-Stats need to level with it, INT that is
-the skill you have in every magic school,durability mana eff....,need to level if you have bought them

-reduce the cost atleast -80k for the elemetnal schools and -15k for LM

-reduce the time needed ( 5 days offline for one school)



Mostly this (as I posted in the other thread). Raise sub skills if present, and int. Reduce cost, and doubling the training speed won't hurt either. As it stands, macroing is still both cheaper and faster. Grinding on mobs is aswell, plus in both those cases you skill more than just the schools.

If undoing macroing, reducing grind, and helping newer players is your goal, all of those things need to be adjusted so that offline skilling becomes a viable feature, not just a gold sink with an incorrect target audience.

Friends Forever
12-11-2010, 06:27
From what I have seen it is good for 1-50, but I think it should be a tad cheaper for 1-75 for the basic spell schools (witchcraft, spellchanting, LM, and GM). This would help noobs get the much needed basic spells faster. I would like to see more data from this though. I definitely would like to see basic stat gains such as Int for leveling the schools. At the very least this is an alternative to macroing for the people who just dont want to :D. I like the direction this is going but would like to see a meditation gui update to show exact gains, such as I put this many points in it levels this school so and so amount etc. Overall a good update just some tweaking should be done to it, like you said you would.

Hopefully next we will get an update on where DF2010 is currently at :ohno:!

Dooney
12-11-2010, 06:33
Laenih, honestly mate, does anyone at AV actually play Darkfall? Because this is just ridiculous. The grind is still insanely stupid which is the reason most new players quit, the gap is still abysmal and yet the Tasos keeps going on about how this is a skill based PvP game.

Hello? Does he know how much AFK macroing and exploiting and AFK Melee macros go on?

Laenih? Please speak to the devs because they seem to think their game is running "smoothing" while its clearly not, new players quit because of the grind, vets get pissed because new players are quitting all the time and AFK macroing has still not been addressed.

AFK swimming has still not been addressed. Stat gain is just a joke and yet its still slow as fuck? Why do you think everyone AFK swims, Laenih?

I swear the devs of this game see the "PvP vids" that people are making and think the grind is okay and everything is okay, when in reality its not, which is why the subs for this game are suffering.

Dooney
12-11-2010, 06:37
;4681746']
Again, skill gain should NOT be a focus of the game, PLEASE don't continue to make building a character a JOB. We play for fun, let us do the fun things in the game. Build us more fun things to do. Fix more bugs/expoits. Add more content. PLEASE.

This.

General_Sarevok
12-11-2010, 06:37
It would be nice if the journal could break down the 25,50, and 75 school levels because the curve after 50 and especially after 75 gets rather long.

My concern is that macroing is vastly better in every way, cheaper, increases spells, increases int, increases school sub skills, and will raise the school much quicker.

My two suggestions are either lower the price which is preferable since it makes this more attainable for newer players, or go the other way and add in int gains, sub school skill gains, and lower the time to raise the school substantially.

Roxdahouse
12-11-2010, 07:10
Bad

-Very expansive

If some resubs accounts cant pay this price imagine a noob , so FAIL looks like AV got some % from chinese farms its impossible

-No stats gain

Stupid who will pay this retard price , long time and not gain stats ? its a joke

-Start without skills

Damm high price.. so its not for a normal new player and vets alredy have 100 in all schools what is the point ? do u guys will lose more player base and no new accounts
Cool

-Nothing

37 guys from my alliance give up today SAD

Merry Christmas Aventurine this is the last

Ginger Magician
12-11-2010, 07:15
Recalling while going encumbered still cancels sound of recall and animation.

I guess that test cluster still isnt functioning too well?

Ayn Sheron
12-11-2010, 07:23
Well the offline skilling doesn't look that bad

It's a pretty good tool that will help you to raise your magic schools when you are not online. (cool for people who cannot macro afk that is illegal btw)

contribut into the reduce of the GAP
However it doesn't compete with macro

Lot of people macro to reduce faster the GAP
I think most of them are pissed because they feel forced to keep macroing because they expected to see teh offline skilling as good as macro afk.

I can't understand their feeling

Now should we lower a lit the price?
why not. Just becareful to make it unbalanced

Ayn Sheron
12-11-2010, 07:24
Well the offline skilling doesn't look that bad

It's a pretty good tool that will help you to raise your magic schools when you are not online. (cool for people who cannot macro afk that is illegal btw)

contribut into the reduce of the GAP
However it doesn't compete with macro

Lot of people macro to reduce faster the GAP
I think most of them are pissed because they feel forced to keep macroing because they expected to see teh offline skilling as good as macro afk.

I can't understand their feeling

Now should we lower a lit the price?
why not. Just becareful to make it unbalanced

edit : i CAN understand their feeling

DwellerBelow
12-11-2010, 07:26
The problem is that they never intended to "fix" any problem.

It's just a little thing so that you don't feel you're losing your time when you log off. Never intended to fix any imaginary gap.

What about the real gap?

The real, soul crushing grind - gap, that one?

The gap that causes so many good FPS'ers to quit, rather than play.

Players like Tom Hanks, who would own any 2-3 newb toons, but who will just never do the grind.

That very real gap between noobs and 'vets' is an awfuly long time in a PvP game.

paxprobellum
12-11-2010, 07:28
Lot of people macro to reduce faster the GAP
I think most of them are pissed because they feel forced to keep macroing because they expected to see teh offline skilling as good as macro afk.


I could either work my job OR I could steal from a bank. Stealing from a bank is faster, and the main point of working is to get money, right?

I could either play the game (including meditation) OR I could afk macro. AFK macroing is faster, and the main point of playing is to get skills, right?

Hopefully you see the point.

(PS The subtle point here is that the main point of working is NOT to get money, nor is the main point of playing to get skills. Didn't want that to go under the radar beneath the somewhat blatant "AFK macroing is illegal" theme :P)

drogan
12-11-2010, 07:28
It's stupidly expensive.

Maybe make it useful asap because people are pissed.

I would recomend doubling the speed melee/archery is leveled on mobs to 6x what it is on a player.

Ayn Sheron
12-11-2010, 07:34
I could either play the game (including meditation) OR I could afk macro. AFK macroing is faster, and the main point of playing is to get skills, right?

Hopefully you see the point.

sorry but playing the game is the fastest way to level your skills

i was comparing afk-macro vs offline skilling

DwellerBelow
12-11-2010, 07:36
I'll admit, they need to tone the price down, and then add a way for newbies to get a discount, better yet, make medpoints a reward for quests.

That said, I cant believe people are quitting over this. It may not have made the game better, but there is no way that it made things worse (unless the players make it worse by overreaction and QQ as they currantly are, which is their fault).

My hope, is that with this implemented, they will start VERY strongly enforcing the no afk macro/skilling policy, basically making this the point where the 99% of cheaters either decide to play without cheats, or face major stat/skill loss.

The sad fact as proven by the majority of the community, is that they will directly violate the TOS without even blushing. The worse fact, is that the GMs rarely deal with this.

This system gives them the out to say "I guess i could do without macros now" but we all know they'll keep it up without a very strong initiative being taken by the GMs. Its Human nature to be absolutly awful and immoral given any option. (as proven by the fact that 99% of the community can justify cheating if they feel like it)

/rantover

Take what you can from that, i know that 99% of the community will be very negative towards this post for very obvious reasons, after all, who would oppose anti-cheating except a cheater?

Dude, wild rant, but, like, did you play on EU1?

Acid pools.
Rigormyid.
Bugged mobs.
Bugged hole in the ground that registed archery hits.
Geometry expoits.
Skilling melee with noob weapons on afk toons while their shield is up.

And the game is still insanely grindy.

Dooney
12-11-2010, 07:39
Dude, wild rant, but, like, did you play on EU1?

Acid pools.
Rigormyid.
Bugged mobs.
Bugged hole in the ground that registed archery hits.
Geometry expoits.
Skilling melee with noob weapons on afk toons while their shield is up.

And the game is still insanely grindy.

No one from AV actually plays this game so they wouldn't know how bad the grind is o.O

DwellerBelow
12-11-2010, 07:40
Meditation

The cost for offline skilling is fine, especially when you take into account that it's a supplement and not a replacement. I still think it was a terrible idea to implement it the first place, though. You guys should have just raised the gains. It was done once, so there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't have been done, again. People are going to macro, regardless, unless you go the way of EVE (that system sucks).

---

The names of players who are entering/leaving your clan city will now be displayed with colors corresponding to their political status towards your clan

*Sigh*

The majority of the forum community (which is much of the low playerbase) wants system messages completely removed. These are the times when I don't think you actually read what people desire. I have already sent feedback as to why the proposed idea of system messages not being seen if towers are destroyed will be 100% pointless. I'll paste it here...

Players will not risk warhulks/ships or waste cannons/battlespikes/siegehammers to do this, and here's why:

The system message will already be tripped if using battlespikes/siegehammers, and likely be tripped when using warhulks, ships, and cannons. After the attackers leave, the holding owners will simply repair the towers. That makes the proposed mechanic 100% pointless.

Tasos spoke of accountability in reference to the attackers in the past, but they already have that... Risking their gear when entering a holding. The holding owners do not have much accountability with regard to sustaining property, because they don't even have to be there in order to see if it's being invaded or damaged. The system messages holds their hand. Bad form.

Take the system messages completely out of the game, and now both sides have equal accountability. Not only that, but it now encourages clans with multiple holdings to actually POPULATE their cities and hamlets or at least check on them more often. It would also help smaller clans, newer players, and solo-types out. They'd get to take part in the invading/scouting/robbing/asset destruction fun more often without having the game watchdog over them for holding owners. The OWNERS would need to take care of the security issue; not the system messages. Currently, all anyone does is wait for those messages and that doesn't even always bring people in to defend. This mechanic, in addition to others, makes Darkfall very stagnate. As engaging as DF is advertised to be, some of the mechanics really cater to the lazy and handfed (system messages, instant travel, etc.).

The idea of the new system message mechanic is going to be a waste of code. Take them out completely, and you'll be onto something.

The game was supposed to have NPC hirelings and guards, that is one of the many 'old Darkfall ideas' that have been thrown on the heap.

The system mesages and stupid towers ( no I don't much like them ) serve to fill the role the Guards should have filled.

Thlaulan
12-11-2010, 07:57
Hmm, still a way to go in many ways, but some good things from this.

It helps you get past holes in your progress, like Spell chanting from 75 to 80, who the fuck ever wanted to waste regs on that.

It helps keep you legal. As macro is still illigal.

Dunno about cost, As I remember it, the last 10 points of a school takes ages and loads more casts = loads more money.

A suggestion to most is to basically take the schools you want manually to 50 or so, then meditate on the remainng part. I can see SC fx. currently at 76 is set to 17 days to get to 100.

malebogia
12-11-2010, 07:59
Nice feature.
Please add spells for meditation.

Leperface
12-11-2010, 08:41
Just left the house for about 9 hours. I bought 3000 meditation points before I left and put them into Greater Magic since I was at 88.3, 9 hours later I have 300 points left and 89.3 Greater Magic. I'm thinking I would have rather saved that money and spent it on regs. It doesn't seem worth it to put your money into meditation at all, even if it is only complimentary, it seems too expensive, although I have yet to see how it works with lesser magic, or other magic schools from 1-75. Seems to expensive to me, I'd rather just not use this feature. As a noob, I remember getting 1000 gold was somewhat difficult and time consuming. I hope it is a worthwhile investment for new players at least.

smackyou
12-11-2010, 08:55
I was gona whine like all of you about mediation, but has anyone actually checked how much it takes for LM? Cause i think its prity low till 75.

Also i think mediation takes a lont time (37days for some school is wayyyy too much, considering there are lots of schools and you wont stay offline for 37days) and prices are slightly high than again im only calculating up to 100, ive got no idea how much it takes up to 75 or 50.

Below text is i didnt find any option, but possibly exist, if so i would like to know where it is tnx.

So if possible a fix where i can decide at what skill i get with x points would be nice. Cause atm all i can do is buy random amount and see how much i go up. I only know to 100 how much it costs :(

And time doesn't show until you actually start mediation. Some time before i buy the points would be nice too.

smackyou
12-11-2010, 09:06
Maybe a small fix to system msg will be that you cannot repair while being sieged this makes taking down towers worth it.

(I still dont like much both tower and system msg, i like the best solution is change the visual of towers and make them a real guard tower with npc on top that shoots arrows or something, doing arcane dmg or what ever as they are know, only visuals are changed to make them more real. Than change system that when the npc archers hit someone the system msg pops up giving his tag name) Than again this tower will work exactly same as a normal tower just has different visuals and cannot be repaired in sieges.

Simple and cool fix i think. And few coding extra (Just visuals) with a happy community. :)

DeManiac
12-11-2010, 09:35
Meditation should be cheaper then it currently is because of the cons.
No stats,
No skills,
No possible money gains at all.

Since it should never ever be compared with macroing on players, since that is a stupid mechanic anyway. It should be compared to that of fighting mobs and similar while focusing on using it. If you do so, you will gain gold, you will gain stats, and you will gain skill points towards spells and abilities.


In a perfect world, while you are online you should not focus on your skills at all, instead focus on things such as, politics, RP, PvP, Exploration etc etc.
Never should you have to think, "Today I should focus on raising Greatsword Mastery 2 points, that sounds like a plan". If you do that, something has gone wrong on the way, then you are putting to much focus on the things that should come naturally.


That is why, the goldcost cannot be high because then people will focus on getting gold TO DO IT. Simple as that, it should be something to complement, not something to replace, and by having it cost an incredible amount, you efficiently replace it. Because then it's something those with enough gold use to do it. And those who want to use it, instead have to devote their gametime to get gold enough to use it.


What I propose, that is lower the cost, retain the current time investment.
Simply because it should be something you use, as a complement to the natural skillgains. It could even be totally free in my opinion, have you bought it, you will gain towards it while being offline passively as long as you in the meditation page of the journal have chosen to do so. Have you not done so, it picks a random one, like it currently does when you finish one.



If meditation is done right, IT SHOULD, replace macroing, since that's a mundane boring alternative to actually playing the game, invented since people did not use the spells enough to actually increase in the schools.

With meditation as an alternative, macroing could be totally forbidden ( because as it currently is, people don't think of it as such ). Since people still get gains towards schools like spell-chanting where you previously were unable to do so while fighting mobs ( nearly ). Meditation is the salvation that will let people experience the game as it should be, and still get spell-chanting to 100 without having to macro.




In the near future, I think you should add spells and abilities, and Meditating on those from the same should increase the gains towards both.
If I meditate on spell-chanting, and I also meditate on "Strenght Ward" the gains would be 25% faster. Instead of meditating on Fireball while meditating spell-chanting to get arcane to get spell-reflect....



Summary:
Macroing was invented to increase in schools and spells you otherwise wouldn't, such as spell-chanting and buffs.
By keeping it low cost, people will use it, and instead focus on playing the game while having those schools( and eventually spells ) as meditation.
Let it take time, just let it be cheap. Does it matter if everyone uses it?

freakd
12-11-2010, 09:49
my focus suggestion http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=4682743#post4682743

Horseman
12-11-2010, 09:56
Add magic secondary skills. Reagent conservation, intensify etc. System is fine.

Amelia Del
12-11-2010, 10:14
My opinion: They should have put melee skills in (not mastery, the skills themselves) and 26 days to get 61 withcraft to 100 is very long in my opinion. Of course it's not meant that way but it's still too slow in my opinion.

-fionn-
12-11-2010, 10:15
In retrospect using gold as the fuel for this thing was probably a bad idea.

I think a meditation bar that you build up would have been a better idea. So you play the game, farm mobs and your meditation bar fills with xp points. The higher level mobs that you get the killing blow on then the more meditation points you get. Before you logoff you can then choose which skills you want to use your meditation points on and they would level slowly while you are offline. The max cap on your meditation bar would only give you a few days of levelling offline.

So you get a direct return from playing the game rather than macroing and it doesn't cost you any gold like macroing does. That might incentivise people to actually use it instead of macroing and also new players can use it aswell as veterans.

In the future then they would add meditation for stats, mana efficiency etc so that you could focus on those things offline rather than people swimming afk and using heal other macros.

Amelia Del
12-11-2010, 10:15
Cant Edit.

They should make the speed to level things depending on the school.

lesser magic 1x, greater magic 1.5x, witchcraft/spellchanting 2x, elemental schools 3.5x, arcane/necro 5x.

Umki Bloodsoul
12-11-2010, 10:18
Tasos said:

The purpose of offline skilling is curbing macroing, giving newer players a better chance to close the gap, and to cut down on some of the tedious repetitive tasks that exist in the game.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=4597670#post4597670

With the current implementation it neither curbs macroing nor does it give newer players a better chance to close the gap nor does it cut down on repetitive tasks.

Why?

1) Too expensive
2) Too slow
3) Neither Stats nor other skills (Veteran Mage, Reag conservation, Intelligence, ...) are raised by offline meditation.

So conclusion: AV should really rethink that concept and its goal.

If it is just complimentary then they should make it either free or much more cheaper.

If it is meant to close the gaps (as Tasos said) then it has to be ways 1) faster and 2) cheaper.

But neither way it does at the moment.

- Newbies don't have gold to effectively use offline meditation
- So they either don't use it buy gold.
- Vets don't bother to use it either
- If they bother they usually got enough gold or know how to make it

Holyroller
12-11-2010, 10:36
Mediation: I really like where you are headed with this. Would eventually like to see all spells/skills available. Yes it's somewhat expensive, as it should be. A nice supplement to playing or macroing.

New tower sounds/character response to getting hit by them: So very annoying. Please hotfix this back out, unnecessary ear fodder and hinders city/hamlet raiding.

Bored
12-11-2010, 11:10
Price would seem fine to me as pretty well half of it's from the 75 to 100 range (looking at costs of two of my elemental schools at around 80(fire) and 5(earth)), except for the fact that ALL it skills up is the school and NOT anything secondary. When you take that into consideration it really is too fucking expensive. I understand it's a first draft and they probably are trying to be conservative with it to avoid disrupting game balance so I'm not mad or dissapointed, just saying it needs to be cheaper in later patches and also have options to grind the skills themselves, time doesn't seem horrible but the deminishing returns on it are too highly scewed. Also would be helpful if it showed the costs to level to each of the major tiers (25, 50, 75, 100) to allow players to get a more acurate guess at how long things will take and how much to cost.

Bruiser
12-11-2010, 11:14
I think apart from spell channeling this system will not be used by many due to the high costs and for spell channeling, a lv 1 spell would have made this school not the horrid macro must that it is.

The meditation system could have been used for the better, stats would be the most obvious thing, eliminating the olympic swimming method should have been priority, as i type this i can hear the merry whooshing of people afk swimming still, after almost two years...

Plus's for sea towers however, it only took a year to get the timing right. :)

peertje
12-11-2010, 11:16
too expensive for noobs imo, and too slow. Who cares if they get the schools a bit faster, they still need to level the spells anyway

VoodooChild
12-11-2010, 11:23
Tasos said:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=4597670#post4597670

With the current implementation it neither curbs macroing nor does it give newer players a better chance to close the gap nor does it cut down on repetitive tasks.

Why?

1) Too expensive
2) Too slow
3) Neither Stats nor other skills (Veteran Mage, Reag conservation, Intelligence, ...) are raised by offline meditation.

So conclusion: AV should really rethink that concept and its goal.

If it is just complimentary then they should make it either free or much more cheaper.

If it is meant to close the gaps (as Tasos said) then it has to be ways 1) faster and 2) cheaper.

But neither way it does at the moment.

- Newbies don't have gold to effectively use offline meditation
- So they either don't use it buy gold.
- Vets don't bother to use it either
- If they bother they usually got enough gold or know how to make it

qft

DeManiac
12-11-2010, 11:25
In retrospect using gold as the fuel for this thing was probably a bad idea.

I think a meditation bar that you build up would have been a better idea. So you play the game, farm mobs and your meditation bar fills with xp points. The higher level mobs that you get the killing blow on then the more meditation points you get. Before you logoff you can then choose which skills you want to use your meditation points on and they would level slowly while you are offline. The max cap on your meditation bar would only give you a few days of levelling offline.

So you get a direct return from playing the game rather than macroing and it doesn't cost you any gold like macroing does. That might incentivise people to actually use it instead of macroing and also new players can use it aswell as veterans.

In the future then they would add meditation for stats, mana efficiency etc so that you could focus on those things offline rather than people swimming afk and using heal other macros.


This was really great, I don't know what I think about higher mobs yielding more meditation points or it being reserved to killing blow.
However the overall concept of having playing the game as it's intended, being the way you improve your meditation.

Finish a quest and you get "meditation points", Sell things to vendors, like you mentioned killing a mob ( but I think just participating in killing it would be enough ), gather, craft.

There currently are categories in the skills window, how about using different meditation points, earned by those actions you perform?.

Craft and gather and you get Green points.
Combat and you get Red Points.
Run around, jump and do general stuff, and you get Blue points.

All which you can spend meditating on skills , abilities and spells.


Would ofcourse have to be adjusted so that casting spells on a mob forever or attacking a player forever doesn't grant you red points, neither should swimming afk grant you blue ones.
Killing things, Red, Crossing borders for example, blue, successfully crafting, gathering or vending items, green ones.

DeManiac
12-11-2010, 11:30
And to benefit noobs especially, a few points could be given when you start a new character, along with the skills, spells and abilities scaling much better then they currently do. 57k for Lesser Magic, that's to much. Instead have it take long time.


How about noobs get 10k green, 10k blue and 10k red.
When you logout you get a message telling you no meditation skills have been selected. If you then realize that you had rather spent them on other things, you are not fucked, you get new ones by playing. And the current system allows you to change whenever you want. So unless you are offline for 2 weeks, those points shouldn't get depleted.

DiciWales
12-11-2010, 11:37
Way to Expensive, should cost 40-50k to max a school.

erm no, i'd like to see you level a magic school ingame, e.g. earth from 1-100 for less than 50k without getting killed / losing any regs

Mad Dog
12-11-2010, 11:41
time it takes is fine, the price is a joke.

Drago Palmas
12-11-2010, 11:43
Gained 1.50 from 60-61.5 Wc overnight in roughly 6-7 hours. It was cheaper then expected.

The alternative staring at my screen hitting a trial is far better tho.
After giving the system a bit of time I can say:

Its not too expensive, price is fine. Speed is ultraslow. Gains are slow, and only concerning school nothing else..
Conclusion, it is not useless but it is a minor tweak, doesnt change anything in my casual gaming experience.
Be behind forever or just go and macro.

ZtyX
12-11-2010, 11:51
I'd like to train greataxe mastery and rays while I'm offline. Offline meditation is 100% useless to me.

AAetius Mole
12-11-2010, 11:51
I started at 43.56 Witchcraft. I have since gained .54 skill in it and have used 483 gold/points. I would have used much more gold on Regs to get that skill.
I LOVE THIS Aventurine! Witches Brew Here I come, sort of. I feel this makes one of the best updates to date.
If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.
This offline skill gains makes me want to log on to play the game to acquire gold.

Solvito
12-11-2010, 11:54
OH XIPHER SHUT YOUR MOUTH FFS, NO MATTER HOW MANY BULLSHIT YOU SPEW OUT OF YOUR MOUTH , THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HIRE YOU.

you clearly are a non-factor ingame and have no clue how things truly roll out.

back on topic,
my suggestions, its really expensive and slow, it wont close the gap between vets and newbies, instead it will help us veterans to get water and spellchanting to 100, thats it.

it doesnt cover the needed things like stats, deffense, rigor and all of those needs for a newbie to survive...

it also takes too long, it should work online also and last but not least, it is very important that instead of telling you how much it would cost to get to 100, it has to tell you how much it takes you to get to the next level (25-50-75-100) becoz a newbie opens the GUI and sees that it needs 200k to 100 necro and first he quits the game and then cuts his veins...seriously AV this was supposed to be a nice feature and it has turned into a huge fuckup even for your standards...

Drago Palmas
12-11-2010, 11:57
nvm, misunderstood.

Brazlar
12-11-2010, 12:02
Offline skilling is ok i spose.

Saves me shootin rats :bang:

I like it, and will moan once av finished the magic schools i'm doing. Could use some offline stat gaining, and other stuff which am sure is coming anyway.

Anyhoo, when we gettin prestige classes? Chop chop

Kernir
12-11-2010, 12:17
I could either work my job OR I could steal from a bank. Stealing from a bank is faster, and the main point of working is to get money, right?

I could either play the game (including meditation) OR I could afk macro. AFK macroing is faster, and the main point of playing is to get skills, right?

Hopefully you see the point.

(PS The subtle point here is that the main point of working is NOT to get money, nor is the main point of playing to get skills. Didn't want that to go under the radar beneath the somewhat blatant "AFK macroing is illegal" theme :P)
If only every 1 in 100 people got caught stealing from a bank, i think you'd see if happening more often

Tasos clearly says he wants to curb macroing and close the gap between vets and new players however this system will increase the gap for two reasons

1) Massive cost for little gains (with no stats or spell levels / passives)
2) Takes a long time to actually give the gains

Sure you can die when macroing and worst case scenario you lose 2k of regs thats 8k you MIGHT lose or you could spend 8k and get 1 level in any spell school of your choice over the course of 12-16 hours

In one day i did 0-60 witchcraft for about 8k of gold had i used the meditation system i would have paid closer to 16k and had to wait about a week and now that im passed 50 Witchcraft the cost and time to gain any more skill ups is so insane i'd rather just log off without meditation, or if i were to break the TOS i could macro overnight and gain 15-20 levels of witchcraft for probably another 8000~ gold

if you want to curb macroing you need to provide a legal alternative that is competetive

If you want this to help new players close the gap, then it needs to be cheap and fast

Just my 2cents hopefully the meditation system gets a revamp very soon before the people that subbed just for it unsub because of it, in its current state not even the most legit player will use it because he just cannot afford it

Throndr
12-11-2010, 14:10
This thread really makes me laugh. Most posts on Forumfall are complaints about the game being to carebear. An when they add the most carebear feature of all, a lot of players complain that it's not carebear enough..:lmao:

I must admit at first glance I thought it was expencive and slow, but using it for half a day now, I think it is ok. I've gained more in GM last 12 hours then my last 10 days of playing.
So now over to constructive feedback:

It should be possible to set a target value, to calculate cost and time to for example 75. If the newbs then set the target value for lesser magic to 50, they can see the cost and time for that. Would make it easier to see how much they'd want to spend on meditation..

Realbigdeal22
12-11-2010, 14:27
45 Witch craft, i spend 1000 gold. Let me login and il report back. Brb.

Edit, expensive and worst then macroing in town.

peertje
12-11-2010, 14:34
a person of a clan we are neutral to just entered our system and his name had no different color whatsoever

speedlovaah
12-11-2010, 14:38
zap towers sound when hitting is very annoying and they do lot of backhits, i guess its a bug.

sometimes u dont waste powder when hitting cannons of ships and probably other cannons.


fix plz

World Dominator
12-11-2010, 14:41
I hate leveling systems in general but in Darkfall I don't think the spells in general are hard to level to be honest. It's more the attribute points and the intensify's and such that are fucking terrible to level up and makes me sick. And therefore, meditation is bad because it just levels your spell levels instead of the other things which are the REAL grind. Spells are extremely easy to level up, it's just the other things that ruin it. Imagine only leveling up the skills/spells instead of all the other shit around it.

doglawur
12-11-2010, 14:44
The problem with meditation is the concept behind it. The player base of DF is in large part 13 year olds wanting instant everything and don't want to work for anything. The fun of a game should be playing it. Not macroing, not offline skilling, not exploiting, not hacking. New players can't afford this new option and vets don't need it. Even if new players go out and buy gold to meditate, it won't make them remotely pvp viable, so who does it actually benefit? Vets basically. Most of the posts here propose that its too expensive and too long of a time frame. Yet again, a desire for instant gratification, even when they are not logged on. Pathetic really. In every game there is and should be a grind.

Additionally, there is another fundamental flaw with meditation indicative of AV since DF launch, and that is, it's not something people cared about. It's like having pretty sand.. nobody cared. These are examples of some of the things mentioned in a prior developer post that people DID care about:

EXCERPTS FROM TASOS POST OF Aug 6 2010
Prestige classes are the largest feature ever added to Darkfall and will definitely change the face of the game. The final design for them is complete. From here we go to the technical design, implementation, testing, evaluation, more testing etc. Sounds like this will take forever but it won’t. The functionality is all there. We cannot announce how many prestige classes there will be when they’re released because everything is subject to change from names, to skills, spells, requirements, and some may not even make it out of testing. There will be, however, a good variation of them offered at release and we’ll keep adding new ones. Prestige classes will be getting a full presentation of their own before long. Until then, a lot of people at Aventurine, even some of the developers don’t know more than you do right now.


Several new spells and alignment changes to the way you gain or lose alignment are on their way. These are generally considered important additions to a game. We also mention in the QA that we’ll reward mages for being mages and not simply through removing fizzle from spells. This is and should be big news for mages.

Villages and Sea Fortresses are getting more improvements. Recent improvements to Sea Fortresses were major additions to the game based on community feedback and suggestions, and future improvements to villages are as well. For example, we’ve already mentioned in a recent interview that players who cap a village will split the reward between themselves and the clan, and there’s more. We’ve also taken the community feedback on the Sea Fortress timing issue and we’re looking into it. We also confirm that new villages and housing slots will be made available.

We mentioned that we’re adding more PvP centric additions on land other than the villages and this brief mention hides significant features we cannot discuss yet, but the fact we can’t expand on these doesn’t mean they aren’t coming.

Darkfall’s user interface is being remade. This means we’re throwing away the old interface and a brand new one is being designed and coded from scratch. An interface for a game like Darkfall can take years to make, it’s a major development effort. We’ve been working on it for a long time now and everything we’ve learned so far is going into this, including a lot of your feedback. We believe that it will greatly improve the user experience.

We’re actively working on differentiating the races and this is a large ongoing project within Aventurine. We’re working on making races more unique and enhancing the racial element of the game; there’s consistency in the work being done in this area. It’s a balancing act but we feel that a pronounced racial element will greatly enhance the game and we hope that you agree. Someone posted that the question was simply asking if we’ll offer a race change option, in which case, we’ve already announced that we will. The Mahirim 4 legged run, mentioned in the Q&A, is still alive. As far as functionality it’s complete down to the final animations. We hope to be able to use this as soon as all races have something equally as cool and useful. It won’t be easy, and it’s a process, but whether we succeed or not, the last statement should give you an idea of how much there is in store as far as racial differentiation goes.

We mentioned that waves may be added to the sea. This may not sound like much on its own unless you take into account the tactics behind it. Add the possibility of weather impact on sailing a ship and the dynamic changes completely. Imagine yourself in a naval battle behind a cannon in a stormy sea bobbing up and down as your captain is having a hard time steering into the wind as he’s fighting to get positioning on your enemies. We’ve taken a lot of steps towards improving the naval element, and we’ll keep supporting that..

Archers are getting new weapon types and ammo types and they’re also getting secondary skills in connection to prestige classes. I didn’t think we needed to explain this statement, but in retrospect we should have put more emphasis on “new weapon types” and “new ammo types”. And to explain even further: right now archers have just one weapon type: the bow, and one ammo type: the arrow.

We’re rolling out a political map and several other clan tools. We also have several plans for additions to clan cities and we’re working on implementing various types of clan insignia. What’s behind the previous statement should be pretty big news for clans.

We confirmed that we’re working on more character customizations like dyes. We also restated our strong commitment to boost crafting with significant additions to the game along the lines of the recently announced addition of rare ores to metal nodes, and adding a very large number of craftable-only items.

THESE are the types of things players want in the game, NOT pretty sand, or offline skilling yet with every new update, we get things that were either not mentioned or not wanted and little to none of what WAS wanted. This game is devoid of content and it appears now, you are busy working on NEW AUDIO.:bang: My suggestion, focus on CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT and stop catering to the infants that basically want someone to play the game for them.

BluesFunk
12-11-2010, 15:50
It would have made so much more sense to just implement a skill-gain multiplier which magnitude and duration is based on how long your character has been inactive. It ensures casual players like myself who can only play an hour or two at most at a time (and refuse to macro) can actually progress from *playing* the game. As opposed to meaningless, repetitive, soul-crushing, butt-raping grind, or setting up a program to accomplish that for you because.... ITS THE ANTITHESIS OF FUN. Games are supposed to be FUN, right?

I really was hoping this system would be something for those of us that have lives, families and jobs. It's as if AV thinks everyone is a basement dwelling hermit that has 17+ hours a day to play the game. Definitely not resubbing.

And I doubt anyone who was concerned with the grind will resub once they discover how the "meditation" system works. By the way, in what fucking universe does it make sense for meditation cost material goods?

Friagrim
12-11-2010, 15:56
Meditation should cost roughly the same as buying the regs to macro, but should take 2-3x longer. Seriously it just makes sense. I really like what they've done, and think that the people who say no one will ever use it are touched in the head, but it still needs to be tweaked. Luckily this is how they do things, introduce in a very limited way and then tweak it to greatness. I like the good start with this and look forward to the many tweaks. Nice job AV, keep at it. I for one will be using this alot. just burned about 4k points while at work and pretty happy with the results. Results that are also 100% safe, which I think everyone forgets.

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 15:56
No the point is to curb macroing
this is not only more expensive (ALOT more) it takes 10-20 times as long as just macroing. i could macro in a town and die twice and still end up with more gains at lower cost than with meditation

and no its not for people who cant afk swim and if you cant afford to macro then you certainly cant afford to meditate

This. Even losing the regs on you from macroing several times macroing is cheaper.

kdchan
12-11-2010, 16:34
Macroing > medidation

Fail patch, i wont come back with this crap.

Tasos, when you solve the grind, afk macroing, balance the specializations and add more content send me an email and i come back. At the monent you don't deserve my money because the game is still incomplete and redundant.

Have a good work and happy new year. :)

Kallorian
12-11-2010, 16:34
Meditation is fine, honestly its prolly to cheap. Is a nice bridge for players to use if they choose. They can spend gold however they want.


For those of you who want less gold cost and faster gains.....go play a diff game then. You want things given to you for nothing, go play the game and earn some shit for once.

muddymess
12-11-2010, 16:45
It's a good supplement to macroing, like when you're going on vacation...

Sleepwalkerr
12-11-2010, 17:16
Macroing > medidation

Fail patch, i wont come back with this crap.

Tasos, when you solve the grind, afk macroing, balance the specializations and add more content send me an email and i come back. At the monent you don't deserve my money because the game is still incomplete and redundant.

Have a good work and happy new year. :)

The sad thing is almost every player who left df think like you, AV dont listen to the players and that's what happen, people just quit.

Av should think a bit more about what this game needs, and no, it's not funhulk or graphics update.

Laxe
12-11-2010, 17:27
The problem with meditation is the concept behind it. The player base of DF is in large part 13 year olds wanting instant everything and don't want to work for anything. The fun of a game should be playing it. Not macroing, not offline skilling, not exploiting, not hacking. New players can't afford this new option and vets don't need it. Even if new players go out and buy gold to meditate, it won't make them remotely pvp viable, so who does it actually benefit? Vets basically. Most of the posts here propose that its too expensive and too long of a time frame. Yet again, a desire for instant gratification, even when they are not logged on. Pathetic really. In every game there is and should be a grind.

Additionally, there is another fundamental flaw with meditation indicative of AV since DF launch, and that is, it's not something people cared about. It's like having pretty sand.. nobody cared. These are examples of some of the things mentioned in a prior developer post that people DID care about:

EXCERPTS FROM TASOS POST OF Aug 6 2010
Prestige classes are the largest feature ever added to Darkfall and will definitely change the face of the game. The final design for them is complete. From here we go to the technical design, implementation, testing, evaluation, more testing etc. Sounds like this will take forever but it won’t. The functionality is all there. We cannot announce how many prestige classes there will be when they’re released because everything is subject to change from names, to skills, spells, requirements, and some may not even make it out of testing. There will be, however, a good variation of them offered at release and we’ll keep adding new ones. Prestige classes will be getting a full presentation of their own before long. Until then, a lot of people at Aventurine, even some of the developers don’t know more than you do right now.


Several new spells and alignment changes to the way you gain or lose alignment are on their way. These are generally considered important additions to a game. We also mention in the QA that we’ll reward mages for being mages and not simply through removing fizzle from spells. This is and should be big news for mages.

Villages and Sea Fortresses are getting more improvements. Recent improvements to Sea Fortresses were major additions to the game based on community feedback and suggestions, and future improvements to villages are as well. For example, we’ve already mentioned in a recent interview that players who cap a village will split the reward between themselves and the clan, and there’s more. We’ve also taken the community feedback on the Sea Fortress timing issue and we’re looking into it. We also confirm that new villages and housing slots will be made available.

We mentioned that we’re adding more PvP centric additions on land other than the villages and this brief mention hides significant features we cannot discuss yet, but the fact we can’t expand on these doesn’t mean they aren’t coming.

Darkfall’s user interface is being remade. This means we’re throwing away the old interface and a brand new one is being designed and coded from scratch. An interface for a game like Darkfall can take years to make, it’s a major development effort. We’ve been working on it for a long time now and everything we’ve learned so far is going into this, including a lot of your feedback. We believe that it will greatly improve the user experience.

We’re actively working on differentiating the races and this is a large ongoing project within Aventurine. We’re working on making races more unique and enhancing the racial element of the game; there’s consistency in the work being done in this area. It’s a balancing act but we feel that a pronounced racial element will greatly enhance the game and we hope that you agree. Someone posted that the question was simply asking if we’ll offer a race change option, in which case, we’ve already announced that we will. The Mahirim 4 legged run, mentioned in the Q&A, is still alive. As far as functionality it’s complete down to the final animations. We hope to be able to use this as soon as all races have something equally as cool and useful. It won’t be easy, and it’s a process, but whether we succeed or not, the last statement should give you an idea of how much there is in store as far as racial differentiation goes.

We mentioned that waves may be added to the sea. This may not sound like much on its own unless you take into account the tactics behind it. Add the possibility of weather impact on sailing a ship and the dynamic changes completely. Imagine yourself in a naval battle behind a cannon in a stormy sea bobbing up and down as your captain is having a hard time steering into the wind as he’s fighting to get positioning on your enemies. We’ve taken a lot of steps towards improving the naval element, and we’ll keep supporting that..

Archers are getting new weapon types and ammo types and they’re also getting secondary skills in connection to prestige classes. I didn’t think we needed to explain this statement, but in retrospect we should have put more emphasis on “new weapon types” and “new ammo types”. And to explain even further: right now archers have just one weapon type: the bow, and one ammo type: the arrow.

We’re rolling out a political map and several other clan tools. We also have several plans for additions to clan cities and we’re working on implementing various types of clan insignia. What’s behind the previous statement should be pretty big news for clans.

We confirmed that we’re working on more character customizations like dyes. We also restated our strong commitment to boost crafting with significant additions to the game along the lines of the recently announced addition of rare ores to metal nodes, and adding a very large number of craftable-only items.

THESE are the types of things players want in the game, NOT pretty sand, or offline skilling yet with every new update, we get things that were either not mentioned or not wanted and little to none of what WAS wanted. This game is devoid of content and it appears now, you are busy working on NEW AUDIO.:bang: My suggestion, focus on CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT and stop catering to the infants that basically want someone to play the game for them.

and when will be this?

this patch took them 2 months to make, so how in hell we will get these promised changes before 2020?

if they cant even add 3d sound rewamp that they showed us as ready to implement half a year ago

Mr. Orange
12-11-2010, 17:27
Just as I have played without macroing, so too shall I play without medication ... err, meditation.

Visperas
12-11-2010, 17:47
Forumfall is sometimes really terrible. Meditation works very nice and you can check this (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=271100) for some real data. Besides lowering its cost and time a little bit, I would improve the interface so it shows you the time and cost to get to the next x0 level in whatever school you are meditating on. Since most of the spells come to you when you get to 10, 20, 30, and so on, that's what should appear. The full time and cost to max it out can be very discouraging and it has actually started this lame "meditation sucks" trend among some players.

RedrumsSam
12-11-2010, 17:56
Just as I have played without macroing, so too shall I play without medication ... err, meditation.

Man, I think just about everyone plays medicated ;)

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 17:57
Meditation is fine, honestly its prolly to cheap. Is a nice bridge for players to use if they choose. They can spend gold however they want.


For those of you who want less gold cost and faster gains.....go play a diff game then. You want things given to you for nothing, go play the game and earn some shit for once.

No, like I said I'm against the system all together. I think its lame. But if they are going to do it they need to make it better for those who would actually benefit from it. Should cost more and take more time than macroing obviously, but its a bit extream as is.

Realbigdeal22
12-11-2010, 18:37
All spells that dont do damages are the one that we should had been able to raise while off line, then naturally raise our spell school from 1 to 100 in effect.

Mikethk
12-11-2010, 18:39
:ninja::ninja::ninja::ninja::ninja:
This meditation is a good idea. I really love it. And players will aswell. This makes it harder to keep up with those who play all time and thats what makes the game...

1. I want to kill blues now to get money for the meditation.

2. I have a harder time figuring out where to put my money. Thats COOL. Makes players choice different ways to go.

3. The meditation is from lvl newbie to lvl Veteran. Thats unique and will always follow your economy. PERFECT.

4. Its simple. It needs to be simple so it wont be some game to learn beside Darkfall. The game is hard enough. And also for AV dont make it to hard for yourself to change. No maintenance = Perfect maintenance.

What could be added?

1. More stuff to gain. (But your going to add).
2. Online Meditation. The online meditation "Dynamic Meditation" will gain faster than offline meditation "Passive Meditation" at same cost. Remember its aswell more dangerous to do this.

When you need 5 min AFK, online meditation is perfect. So instead of going offline (maybe not online again that day cause now you just went off) you stay online ingame still playing.

You can meditate whenever whereever and in whatever gear. To make it even for online vs. offline meditation the online meditation will put lights on you that can be seen from a great distance. Like this: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0603/pillars_tape.jpg

The state will be activated as the "recall" skill, some state you go into and nothing else can be done in this state. It takes 30 sec to get into the state and 30 sec to get out of the state. However if someone hits you, you will get out.

Tweaks about price is to early to talk about.

Falokis
12-11-2010, 18:49
Pros:
1. You can meditate any magic school.
2. Meditation is done through the journal.
3. It only costs gold, so you can save your regs for actually playing the game.
4. It's obviously 100% safe.
5. You can meditation while online, also.
6. You can queue up about 3 days worth of points, if you have the money. That makes it good if you go out of town or can't actively play for a few days.

Cons:
1. It's about 5x times slower than macroing at equal cost.
2. The price scales as you get higher level similar to increased number of casts to level.
3. It's ONLY the spell schools, not the spells.
4. It doesn't level your stats, so you get no int gains.
5. The gold cost is roughly 2x-3x more than macroing for equal skill gains.
6. NO STAT GAINS!!!

Overall, it's a good, balanced system if they add stat gains to it. Another simple way to fix this is to meditate skills that we don't have for stats: weight training for strength, cardio for endurance, juggling for dex, math for int, etc... These can be trained with out hitting a hard cap (100). These should be fast and dirt cheap at low levels, but scale as you hit higher levels.

Kasmos
12-11-2010, 18:55
I simply think it takes too much money and too much time. I thought this was going to be a system designed to help new players, but no new player will ever use this, let alone any veteran.

ghostinthedark
12-11-2010, 18:58
KEEP the sea towers the same everyday is awesome

Julius Khaldun
12-11-2010, 19:13
Pros:
1. You can meditate any magic school.
2. Meditation is done through the journal.
3. It only costs gold, so you can save your regs for actually playing the game.
4. It's obviously 100% safe.
5. You can meditation while online, also.
6. You can queue up about 3 days worth of points, if you have the money. That makes it good if you go out of town or can't actively play for a few days.

Cons:
1. It's about 5x times slower than macroing at equal cost.
2. The price scales as you get higher level similar to increased number of casts to level.
3. It's ONLY the spell schools, not the spells.
4. It doesn't level your stats, so you get no int gains.
5. The gold cost is roughly 2x-3x more than macroing for equal skill gains.
6. NO STAT GAINS!!!

Overall, it's a good, balanced system if they add stat gains to it. Another simple way to fix this is to meditate skills that we don't have for stats: weight training for strength, cardio for endurance, juggling for dex, math for int, etc... These can be trained with out hitting a hard cap (100). These should be fast and dirt cheap at low levels, but scale as you hit higher levels.

Not while online. Meditation will also pause when you log in the game and resume when you log back out. <--- from the "more info blog"

Falokis
12-11-2010, 19:31
Not while online. Meditation will also pause when you log in the game and resume when you log back out. <--- from the "more info blog"LOL. It's so slow I didn't notice the pause. My mistake.

CSLegend
12-11-2010, 20:03
I think it would benefit noobs if it was slightly cheaper or if it showed prices in increments of 25 rather then straight to 100 perhaps u can choose how far u wanna take it like if your lvl 17 u pick 25 or 30 depending on the spell u want to get too.
The length is quite long maybe dim it down a little but im not sure on the length for lower lvls
Also it is not for vets its not ment for end game players its strictly for noobs to try and get a chance at surviving and participating in pvp and the casual player.
I also think it should increase noobs stats maybe up to a certain lvl like 0-55 or else a player is just gonna gimp himself instead of training the school

banned4good
12-11-2010, 20:10
mediation should have all skills. might want to add spells to it aswell.. as it is right now just being magic is very lame and not even vents want to use it let alone noobies.

worldspin85
12-11-2010, 20:15
Pros:
1. You can meditate any magic school.
2. Meditation is done through the journal.
3. It only costs gold, so you can save your regs for actually playing the game.
4. It's obviously 100% safe.
5. You can meditation while online, also.
6. You can queue up about 3 days worth of points, if you have the money. That makes it good if you go out of town or can't actively play for a few days.

Cons:
1. It's about 5x times slower than macroing at equal cost.
2. The price scales as you get higher level similar to increased number of casts to level.
3. It's ONLY the spell schools, not the spells.
4. It doesn't level your stats, so you get no int gains.
5. The gold cost is roughly 2x-3x more than macroing for equal skill gains.
6. NO STAT GAINS!!!

Overall, it's a good, balanced system if they add stat gains to it. Another simple way to fix this is to meditate skills that we don't have for stats: weight training for strength, cardio for endurance, juggling for dex, math for int, etc... These can be trained with out hitting a hard cap (100). These should be fast and dirt cheap at low levels, but scale as you hit higher levels.

i like this

Kimoshu
12-11-2010, 20:35
I like the new feature, it's fairly well in how it is implemented right now. I do have some feedback which may or may not have been said already:

A point many have brought up which is very important to note is that leveling up your schools using the offline meditation will not earn any levels in your passive abilities(Durable, efficiency, etc.) for that school. This is not an issue that needs to change and I agree it shouldn't level up those passive skills but this does change the value of gaining skills in this way. If meditation is meant as a method to help curb the felt need to macro then it will fail due to having a higher cost then most macrod gains and also not giving skillpoints to the passive skills is a double whammy. Anyone who's going to macro will still macro and new players will still have this temptation.

For that reason I recommend to leave the leveling pace the way it is as it isn't too bad to get a school up to 75 in a reasonable amount of time with just offline skilling; However I recommend to 1/2 the cost of the meditation points as it is far too expensive, especially for newer semi-casual players(Who benefit the most from this system!) to be able to afford to use this system regularly without being given gold by a friend.

TL;DR - Love the feature and the way it is implemented but think that meditation points should be cheaper due to the fact that passive skills still require grinding after spending the gold on offline skilling and thus macroing is still too attractive an option for newer players.

-Andrew

Gray Fox
12-11-2010, 20:51
In my opinion whoever says that its too expensive and uselless are people who havent tested it properly. Be reasonable and post if you really have tested it.

Comparing this sytem with overnight macroing you have the advantage of being 100% safe, not wasting any regs or staff durability and its also much more simple to use than macroing.

The cons are the fact that the system is slower and a bit more expensive.
To raise my arcane magic from 80 to 100 takes around 85k points wich I could instead use to buy 40k plus of mandrake and macro lend mana with a partner, and im pretty sure the last would have better benefits.

So what I suggest is a small increase in speed and lower in cost if this system is to compete with macroing.

I know still that this was a great step and just for the fact that macros seem to take a bit to setup a lot of people will be using this system.
Congrats AV

ColonelTEE3
12-11-2010, 20:53
I think one of the most consistent concerns ive heard in vent is not just that its too expensive to be worth while, but that you aren't getting any of the four sub-skills in the magic schools, nor any complementary amplifying skills (archmage for example), and you're not getting any stats.

Cunning
12-11-2010, 21:02
As mentioned we introduced the new offline skilling with the latest patch and we are considering constructive feedback for the meditation system. On top of this, we will frequently add additional skills to me meditation system.

Before you add your feedback:
a) please keep it constructive and explain in detail what your concerns are.

b) The meditation system is NOT meant to replace playing Darkfall. It's meant to be complementary to your normal playing and skill up session. You shouldn't look at it as saving up the money to get a whole school from one to 100 in one go.

c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is faster then skilling up an advanced school.


Thanks for helping us with constructive feedback in advance and staying with the topic at hand which is the meditation system.

The green word should be edited to be 'than' in order to be correct.

Cunning
12-11-2010, 21:03
oops I meant for that t be a personal message...

AmonDominus
12-11-2010, 21:49
Meditation skill:
Too expensive
Too long
This.

dirtknap
12-11-2010, 21:52
It's far too expensive for relative newcomers to the game and casuals.

Newbies have a hard enough of a time earning/saving the gold to buy other essential skills, spells, and gear, replace lost stuff, etc, let alone afford a spare ten thousand of gold every couple of days for meditation. Likewise for more casual players. The only way to even hope to afford it, is the GRIND YET MORE PVE.

Because of this, only mid- to advanced players who play a lot can realistically afford the cost of meditation, which effectively means this feature will WIDEN the gap between newbies/casuals and vets, the exact OPPOSITE of what this game needs.

In short, the system is bad bad bad, because:
1) 1->50 is too expensive. newbies do not have a spare 10K gold every few days.
2) it widens the gap between new and vet players.
3) it widens the gap between casual and hardcore players, as casuals cannot hope to keep up with the cost, but hardcore players can.
4) emphasis on gold cost will attract gold sellers like flies to shit.

Offline skilling 1->50 should be FREE and cost only TIME.

dirtknap
12-11-2010, 21:54
Offline skilling 1->50 should be FREE and cost only TIME.

Furthermore, I think offline skilling shouldn't go beyond 75. The feature should be CLOSING the character skill gap, not WIDENING it.

You know, so DF can really be about player skill, not character skill.

worldspin85
12-11-2010, 21:56
Furthermore, I think offline skilling shouldn't go beyond 75. The feature should be CLOSING the character skill gap, not WIDENING it.

You know, so DF can really be about player skill, not character skill.

im with that! u shouldnt be able to meditate from 75-100 just 1-75 help the noobs close the gap good idea.

DeManiac
12-11-2010, 21:57
Offline skilling 1->50 should be FREE and cost only TIME.

QFT!!
That would do allot.

Means should be done to lower the efficiency of Macroing so the only thing you can compare it with is playing the game as it should be played.

In which case the numbers are not so skewed.

Make it free to 50, or atleast so for the "simple magic".
With those above that costing a fraction of what the current cost is, and like said above, only be a time investment.

dirtknap
12-11-2010, 21:58
I think one of the most consistent concerns ive heard in vent is not just that its too expensive to be worth while, but that you aren't getting any of the four sub-skills in the magic schools, nor any complementary amplifying skills (archmage for example), and you're not getting any stats.

I concur with this. It's aimed at people who already have "decent" chars with lots of gold. It should be aimed at getting newbies viable.

Buying the magic skill for the first time ought to give you enough meditation credit to offline skill that magic skill to 50 for no additional cost. Note even if it were free to skill 1->50, there would still be the TIME cost.

Kallorian
12-11-2010, 22:10
mediation should have all skills. might want to add spells to it aswell.. as it is right now just being magic is very lame and not even vents want to use it let alone noobies.

No

You just want all skills to be easy to get, like most of this post.

Skills will be added as this option is explored, but please dont over do it.

So, stop the QQ and play and earn skills

Nairbog
12-11-2010, 22:16
I only read the last page but Dirtknap summed up most of my complaints. I don't necessarily think 1-50 should be free, but it should be much less meditation points(gold)/hour. Right now the gains scale but the meditation points/hour do not. If you make it so that the meditation points/hour scale as well, the system becomes much more viable for new players.

Additionally, it was said to be intended to reduce macroing. In its current form I don't think any people currently macroing will switch to meditation, and macroing is still roughly 5x faster and 2-3x cheaper. Not only that, with macroing you get stat/subskill/spell gains as well. Yes, people shouldn't be doing it anyways, but it's a sad fact that people are, and the only way to reduce it is to make meditation gains closer to that of macroing. Whether this is reducing the time needed to get to "staple" spells in different schools (i.e. getting to 75 in WC for witches brew) or keeping the current rate but adding in stat/subskill/spell gains, it needs to be done to have any effect on macroing.

I understand that you wanted to be carefu and not create a broken system, but I think you erred too far on the side of caution for this round. Here's hoping that you make some significant boosts for the next round so that it's more accessible for new players, and a more viable alternative (doesn't have to be better, just not 5x slower and 3x more expensive) to macroing for mid-lvl players.

Chris Windblade
12-11-2010, 22:33
first off i will proly never use meditation.
how ever there is one good thing about it when i am specked destoyer or indistructiable i can still gain the skill in the scholls i may want to chose some spells out of at some point.. lets face it the meditation is not even worth wasteing the time for it. it is off line but when its 25 skill = you can play normal and gain more skill in 1 hr then you can for 4 days of meditation.its a good sink but then again when you have gold farmers selling gold all day long 20 bucks for 130k whats the big deal?

Long Duckdong
12-11-2010, 22:35
As mentioned we introduced the new offline skilling with the latest patch and we are considering constructive feedback for the meditation system. On top of this, we will frequently add additional skills to me meditation system.

Before you add your feedback:
a) please keep it constructive and explain in detail what your concerns are.


b) The meditation system is NOT meant to replace playing Darkfall. It's meant to be complementary to your normal playing and skill up session. You shouldn't look at it as saving up the money to get a whole school from one to 100 in one go.

c) meditation is following diminishing returns. Which means skilling from 1 to 25 or 50 is faster and cheaper then skilling the last part of a school. Additionally skilling up lesser magic is faster then skilling up an advanced school.


Thanks for helping us with constructive feedback in advance and staying with the topic at hand which is the meditation system.

I had higher hopes for this system. I realize that other skill options will be added later and this is a system that will be tweaked in the future. But at the core there are issues that most player including myself hate about Darkfall many MMO's to date. These for many people are game breaking. You need to make real attempts to limit or negate the need for players to seek other ways of leveling to be competitive in PvP. Hacking in the past was a major issue. I think you guys have done an awesome job of detecting and policing this issue. Yet there are still areas that have seemingly gone unaddressed.

You said “The meditation system is NOT meant to replace playing Darkfall”. Yet the Meditation system does nothing to address the fact violating the ToS is still the one of the fastest ways to level many skills and spells. One of the aspects I don't like about Darkfall is all the afk; swimming, running, and macroing, which is of course is not playing the game. I was hoping that this system would have a better return on investment than macroing and player would use Meditation instead of macroing.

It is not enough to just have a policy in the ToS and leave at that. Especially when it is nearly impossible for you to monitor and take action against players that violate the ToS. We have a system now that relies on player reporting for ToS violations. The current skill system basically makes violating the ToS the best way to level your character. I have been in many clans/alliances and when new recruits join the first question is “whats the fastest way to level”. They are then indoctrinated in the ways of Darkfall leveling. They are told to afk swim for health and quickness. They are told to afk macro on an alt or a bloodwall to raise weapons skills, Rigor, Ignor Pain self buffs, buff others, and heals. Some are even shown ways to exploit mobs.

This should not be the case. People rarely read the ToS for any game. So new players may not be aware that what they have been told to do level their character may violate the ToS. I know it is the players responsibility to ensure they play the game without violating the ToS. But this is such a gray area because there are things that were previously ok to do or AV turned a blind eye to. There are gray ares in what constitutes exploiting mobs. No system can be full proof and some people will violate the rules no matter what system is in place but, the majority of players want to play within the ToS. But when there are no viable alternatives they will break the rules, whether it's because they see other players that are doing it or know people that have done it in the past. So they will break the rules because they feel it's a choice between subscribing and breaking the ToS to be competitive or not subscribing at all.

I think the amount of gold required is too high. My worry is this will make players more inclined to purchase gold online. Quote “ You shouldn't look at it as saving up the money to get a whole school from one to 100 in one go.” But that is the way the implementation looks like it's intended to do. If this is the case then you should not have allowed leveling to 100. Limit it to 50 in each school. By this statement you are acknowledging that you have implemented a system that will lead player to use it in a way that you did not intend it to be used for. This highlights, for me at least, that there was not a clear understanding by the dev team of what this system was intended to do.

I am not a fan of micro transaction systems but this one system where I think it maybe warranted. The Meditation should not be based on gold or at the very least on an amount of gold that a player can easily buy online. Again making violating the ToS as the best course for the player to achieve his or her goal.

I do have one piece of feedback on the UI that is sorely missing. There should be a way for in the UI to enter a target level for a skill and display the cost of meditating to that level. For example; I have GM at 75 I would like the UI to calculate the cost of leveling GM from 75 to 80.

The Meditation reduces wasted grind. By that I mean leveling a cheap spell that I will never use just so I can get to a certain level to buy a viable spell. I don't think I will use the system at all.

TooTight
12-11-2010, 22:53
Meditation needs to be better than macros... thats the point right? well make it that way

Gray Fox
12-11-2010, 23:02
In my opinion whoever says that its too expensive and uselless are people who havent tested it properly. Be reasonable and post if you really have tested it.

Comparing this sytem with overnight macroing you have the advantage of being 100% safe, not wasting any regs or staff durability and its also much more simple to use than macroing.

The cons are the fact that the system is slower and a bit more expensive.
To raise my arcane magic from 80 to 100 takes around 85k points wich I could instead use to buy 40k plus of mandrake and macro lend mana with a partner, and im pretty sure the last would have better benefits.

So what I suggest is a small increase in speed and lower in cost if this system is to compete with macroing.

I know still that this was a great step and just for the fact that macros seem to take a bit to setup a lot of people will be using this system.
Congrats AV

Edit: The thing I most like about this system is that its a way to train schools of magic without training spells I dont plan on using.
Imagine I just want reflect spells from arcane magic, just meditate on it till I get it.

Edit: I also suggest that it shows how many hours of meditation are required to reach 100.

Ayn Sheron
12-11-2010, 23:25
J : hundreds of QQ

J+1 : after a few hours of test now what people really think about the feature?

i already hear QQers have changed their mind about the offline skilling

$id Viciou$
12-11-2010, 23:49
I just tried it and its not bad. A very good start. I definitely see how this works good in the long run but it is discouraging to see so much money listed to reach 100. People do not typically have that much money so I could see how it makes them feel like they will never get to 100. It reminds me of how discouraging skilling up in the game would be if it read something like 129,352 mobs hit and 854,000 hits remaining to reach 100 whenever you check what your melee mastery was at or something. Seeing big numbers, especially for a noob, can be discouraging when it is difficult to measure. I say get rid of the numbers, and just put a warning when they have more money than what is needed to get to 100. Nobody thinks about how much putting in 2k gold a day adds up to in the long run but when they see such a high number they may think that it is out of reach.

Corizo
12-12-2010, 00:15
An idea based on a post I dont find anymore:

Novice Meditation Points, used for skilling up to 25: free
Basic Meditation Points, used for skilling from 25 to 50: very cheap
Advanced Meditation Points, used for skilling from 50 to 75: expensive
Master Meditation Points, used for skilling from 75 to 100: expensive like hell

Novice Points would only make sense when more skills are available for meditation, not only magic schools.

xpiher
12-12-2010, 00:21
No

he should be able to use meditation as a mean to lower the gap to your schools for example.
While he trains water while playing for example he should get fire over night and his offtime. So next time he meets you he can use shards AND fireball on you instead to you doing it him for the 100 time on him..

And that is how it works currently. 2.5k = 11 levels when you are under 25 in the skill, from 25-50 the cost seems to tripple, and from 50-100 the cost is the remainder.



My Water Magic is 75. To get it to 100 its would be 100k. Thats insane and just promoted Gold farming.


You aren't suppose to use it past 60ish unless you are fucking lazy thats why its prohibitively expensive. AV allows you to use it to get to 100, but they don't want you to. When you are below 50 in the skill, the gains/time is perfect. Total cost is like 150k, but the first 50 levels are only like 30k. Thats just a little bit more expensive than hitting mobs with a bolt spell.

Yakamoz
12-12-2010, 00:50
So let get it straight you have implemented a huge money sink in the game and expect from it to allow new players to catch up with the vets ? I am sure you have noticed that new players don't have the money required to actually use meditation to catch up with others. So what's the point of it ? To allow vets to use their endless resources to train alts ? Where is the logic here ?

Are you actually playing this game without developer's cheats ?

xpiher
12-12-2010, 01:00
So let get it straight you have implemented a huge money sink in the game and expect from it to allow new players to catch up with the vets ? I am sure you have noticed that new players don't have the money required to actually use meditation to catch up with others. So what's the point of it ? To allow vets to use their endless resources to train alts ? Where is the logic here ?

Are you actually playing this game without developer's cheats ?

Sigh: The system is meant to allow newbie to level offline for slightly more gold than it would take to level online and be useless for vets

Please read Frosth's Post (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=271063) and
JCanto's post (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=271071)

Makgyver
12-12-2010, 01:07
new players don't have enough gold and vets already have all magic schools at 100

Shioni
12-12-2010, 01:47
Looking at meditation as a gold sink I feel players would sooner avoid it after 50 skill.

Some suggestions to help meditation

* Add meditation points to chaos chests to match the gold pay out
* Add slow meditation option at reduced cost, but longer waiting time
* Add fast meditation option at higher cost and much less time
* The over all cost should be reduced by 10-20%
* Meditation scrolls that add 5k points

Lashiec9
12-12-2010, 01:59
It needs to do secondary skills for magic - intensifies, quicken, efficiency & masteries. These are the grind. Spell schools are easy.

TumorousGrowth
12-12-2010, 02:02
Its too expensive for new players, and it needs to apply to secondary skills.

Krag
12-12-2010, 02:04
It needs to do secondary skills for magic - intensifies, quicken, efficiency & masteries. These are the grind. Spell schools are easy.

INT is a huge grind too, and this doesnt raise it.

It's almost a trap even for newbies to meditate instead of macro which is cheaper, faster, and trains more skills (spell sub skills, and even stuff like armoured casting).

Kygen Dumoruth
12-12-2010, 02:06
Figured I'd reply to this since servers down. Atm my witchcraft is at 49.98 sounds okay right? Well, to get my witchcraft from 49.98 to 100 it would cost me 120k through meditation. Meaning 30k bone if I were to do it online. I think I would be able to get too 100.00 witchcraft with 5k bone pestilence macroing (a message to the kids- Macroing is bad don't do it) Meaning this system would cost 100k more than attended macroing.

This was probably implemented to stop/diminish macroing but all it seems to be doing is driving people to doing it.

xpiher
12-12-2010, 02:15
Figured I'd reply to this since servers down. Atm my witchcraft is at 49.98 sounds okay right? Well, to get my witchcraft from 49.98 to 100 it would cost me 120k through meditation. Meaning 30k bone if I were to do it online. I think I would be able to get too 100.00 witchcraft with 5k bone pestilence macroing (a message to the kids- Macroing is bad don't do it) Meaning this system would cost 100k more than attended macroing.

This was probably implemented to stop/diminish macroing but all it seems to be doing is driving people to doing it.

You aren't meant to meditate to 100. The last 25 levels is where the bulk of the cost is

vOID oNE
12-12-2010, 02:21
all newbs should drp 10k on this .,put it on spellchanting., grind out witchcraft and get 75skill .,grind ur spellchanting.,., nly usefullthing i can see this option has

xpiher
12-12-2010, 02:24
all newbs should drp 10k on this .,put it on spellchanting., grind out witchcraft and get 75skill .,grind ur spellchanting.,., nly usefullthing i can see this option has

Newbie spends 5hrs leveling air magic. Takes gold gained leveling air magic to buy mediation points and uses the points to level fire magic. Next day newbie has Air and Fire to 50 and access to the most used r50 nukes in the game in half the time.

Newbie currently leveling melee. While leveling melee he spends 7k gold on meditation point. Next day newbie has access to all transfers.

MrDDT
12-12-2010, 02:37
Why is this even in the game?
You want to help newer players? Beef up how fast you train skills from 1 to 25 by like 25x, 25 to 50 by 12x, and 50 to 75 by 6x, and 75 to 100 by 3x.

Done.

Or you can put in a system that promotes you to LOG OUT OF THE GAME????? wth is that?
On top of that why use a system that doesnt improve stats?, plus it costs a boat load, plus it takes longer than macroing.

Epic fail of an idea, and system.
This isnt EVE, EVE doesnt do it like this, nor should it. This system is wrong in so many ways I dont even know who would come up with this system. It helps no one but gold farmers, gold buyers, and people that have duped or exploited, which is rare because most of those people are maxed out in all schools now.

MortalZero
12-12-2010, 02:37
You aren't meant to meditate to 100. The last 25 levels is where the bulk of the cost is

Sure you are meant to meditate to 100. The interface doesn't prohibits you using it and you should use it to cloe the GAP to macroers and vets. Tell me other ways to ctach up to players who have no other life and re 16 hours online ? Please tell me ..
The bulk of cost is there cause the bulk of of the gap is there ;)
The tedious part offline skilling should help with are last levels ..you get to 50 pretty fast...

Falokis
12-12-2010, 02:47
It is a good system, but there are two problems. It should be only slightly more expensive and slightly more time to level a skill, in exchange for guaranteed gains while offline. At present, the gap of cost/time is so big that it's still better to macro. Take that with no stat gains and you basically have a useless system.

A few minor tweaks and it should be fine.

1. Make to cost 25% more time and money than afk macroing.
2. Lesser magic should be free since the two spells everyone uses to level it are free.
3. Add in stat gains to the mix or add new meditations like weight lifting for (str) or reading for (int). Stats are the REAL grind in DF and are far worse than skills.

natris
12-12-2010, 03:30
You need to:
-Add diminishing returns to all stats similar (although maybe not so drastic) to how hit points are being computed
-Make at least Archmage and Mana conservation needing 50 or 60 INT/GM Mana conservation instead of 75
-Nerf the cost by 1/2, maybe 1/3 so that macroing is not so much cheaper and better

By doing this, you add real alternative to macroing. Currently it is an additional tax for those who want to play legit as compared to macroers.

Kimoshu
12-12-2010, 03:31
Sure you are meant to meditate to 100. The interface doesn't prohibits you using it and you should use it to cloe the GAP to macroers and vets. Tell me other ways to ctach up to players who have no other life and re 16 hours online ? Please tell me ..
The bulk of cost is there cause the bulk of of the gap is there ;)
The tedious part offline skilling should help with are last levels ..you get to 50 pretty fast...

The point is you can meditate when offline, use the magic school while online killing mobs, any extra money you can sink into meditation. This means you will gain faster without the use of macroing. Or you can level up melee/archery(Cheapest offensive skills) and gain gold in the process which you sink into meditation points to get things like 30 spell chanting which should be a few days with 12hrs+ a day in meditation.

Meditation has added more concrete numbers to the discussion when it comes to leveling skills, the first 25 are very fast, 25-50 not bad, 50-75 gets grindy and 75+ it slows down huge; This is not new information but the meditation system has made it known now to everyone. The skill-ups to get from 1-75 are less than the skill-ups from 75-100 I believe which is how it should be to get the upper mastery levels of any skill. Meditation is great to level up a school of magic to get spells that you will use so that you can level the school up naturally using those spells and add a few points every night to it through meditation.

Everything with the implementation is good as an offline skilling system that requires active play to get most use out of so you don't just set the passive skills and not play the game for months like you do in Eve. The only issue is that meditation points are too expensive and you should get 2 points for every 1 gold instead of 1 to 1.

I set it to do necromancy and I was at 91.79, it will take 7 days to max out with just the offline skilling. As a non-grinder casual player I love this feature and it is a great way for casuals to catch up who refuse to macro. The only issue like I said was the cost, it's fine for a vet like me who can farm 10k+ raw gold an hour at dozens and dozens of spawns around the world but for newer players who can only farm 1-5k/hr it's difficult for casual players who only have a few hours a day tops to play. Lowering the cost is the perfect solution to an otherwise good first step in the implementation.

-Andrew

xpiher
12-12-2010, 03:32
-Nerf the cost by 1/2, maybe 1/3 so that macroing is not so much cheaper and better

Or just crack down on macroers once the system is flushed out? Also, it only slightly more expensive than macroing for the first 50 levels. Working as intended IMO.

TheVillageIdiot
12-12-2010, 03:59
The point is you can meditate when offline, use the magic school while online killing mobs, any extra money you can sink into meditation. This means you will gain faster without the use of macroing. Or you can level up melee/archery(Cheapest offensive skills) and gain gold in the process which you sink into meditation points to get things like 30 spell chanting which should be a few days with 12hrs+ a day in meditation.

Meditation has added more concrete numbers to the discussion when it comes to leveling skills, the first 25 are very fast, 25-50 not bad, 50-75 gets grindy and 75+ it slows down huge; This is not new information but the meditation system has made it known now to everyone. The skill-ups to get from 1-75 are less than the skill-ups from 75-100 I believe which is how it should be to get the upper mastery levels of any skill. Meditation is great to level up a school of magic to get spells that you will use so that you can level the school up naturally using those spells and add a few points every night to it through meditation.

Everything with the implementation is good as an offline skilling system that requires active play to get most use out of so you don't just set the passive skills and not play the game for months like you do in Eve. The only issue is that meditation points are too expensive and you should get 2 points for every 1 gold instead of 1 to 1.

I set it to do necromancy and I was at 91.79, it will take 7 days to max out with just the offline skilling. As a non-grinder casual player I love this feature and it is a great way for casuals to catch up who refuse to macro. The only issue like I said was the cost, it's fine for a vet like me who can farm 10k+ raw gold an hour at dozens and dozens of spawns around the world but for newer players who can only farm 1-5k/hr it's difficult for casual players who only have a few hours a day tops to play. Lowering the cost is the perfect solution to an otherwise good first step in the implementation.

-Andrew

New / causal players should focus on getting their low-end skills up to 50 which doesn't cost too much.