09/23/2006, Dev Prompted Debate: Single Race, or Single Character per Server?

[Gunther TheBlack]

How is it ever possible that you are stuck with one playstyle. Seriously, how can you even say that when that is the one thing the devs made sure doesn't happen! And no you don't have to gimp your character between switching playstyles. There is no hardcap on skills, so if you are a warrior and want to go mage, you start practicing your mage skills, doesn't mean you have to stop using warrior skills. After your mage skills are high enough to be satisfactory in combat use, you knock off your expert level fighting skills to gain your expert level mage skills at a faster rate. Where is the gimp?

Also, skill level doesn't mean a whole lot. This isn't other mmo's, again its Darkfall. You can compete with almost any level of skills based on your actual playing skill. No gimp involved.



Did you hear of the overall skill softcap?


The more skill you gain the harder it will be to gain even more skill.

[V1RUS]

So? So you can't insta-switch your entire template. I understand that you want to be able to do this that and the other, honestly I don't have a problem with that. But you see there are others out that that will abuse SRS and make the game very unfair. My post on page 33 nails two possible scenarios that I don't think have been stated before.

[Saygram]

The only thing i remember for it is that my rant shutted the fuck everybody up who was pro-SCS unless they were too stubborn or retarded to understand my reasoning.

Or maybe you are to stubborn or retarded to understand why SCS is a good idea for a pvp MMORPG a well designed skill system. From what I have read about this game leveling up skills is supposed to be very fast, so dropping skills and learning others will not be that bad. Unless you plan on unlearning every single skill and making a completely different toon then your first one, it should take you less time to untrain some skills then design a whole new toon because your other skills will still be mastered.

SCS will make you think about how you talk and treat people, since the only way you are going to make them forget you will be to delete your character and start over with a different name.

SCS will make you have to adapt to every type of person and situation you come across since you can't just log off a toon who keeps getting killed by a group of raiders and log on to another toon that will have a better chance against them or is just not in the same area as the raid.

SRS is for people who want crafting to mean nothing like it does in WOW and for people who don't know what there favorite play style is and just want everything like the 7 level 60 characters they had in WOW.

So if you want a real pvp experience with real consequence then SCS is the way to go, but you don't and you think SRS is they way to go then just go back to WOW and let people who want a tough pvp enviroment have Darkfall.

[Vattic]

1. another rain forest ...

2. immature perhaps; illogical to someone who thinks on the linear level.

3. reading comprehension.

if you think for one second that your language intimidates me(another insult I might add) ... you're suffering from delusions of grandeur(not an insult as you have demeaned yourself by your own behaviour).


1) no idea what you mean here.

2) "im‧ma‧ture  /ˈɪməˈtʃʊr, -ˈtʊr, -ˈtyʊr, -ˈtʃɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-uh-choor, -toor, -tyoor, -chur]

[Vattic]

SRS is for people who want crafting to mean nothing like it does in WOW and for people who don't know what there favorite play style is and just want everything like the 7 level 60 characters they had in WOW.




without addressing your insults or the other parts of your post, here you are assuming that we want crafting to mean nothing. that's false, i for one plan on crafting. please use logic not emotion to make your points like a grownup should.

[Gunther TheBlack]

Or maybe you are to stubborn or retarded to understand why SCS is a good idea for a pvp MMORPG a well designed skill system. From what I have read about this game leveling up skills is supposed to be very fast, so dropping skills and learning others will not be that bad. Unless you plan on unlearning every single skill and making a completely different toon then your first one, it should take you less time to untrain some skills then design a whole new toon because your other skills will still be mastered.

SCS will make you think about how you talk and treat people, since the only way you are going to make them forget you will be to delete your character and start over with a different name.

SCS will make you have to adapt to every type of person and situation you come across since you can't just log off a toon who keeps getting killed by a group of raiders and log on to another toon that will have a better chance against them or is just not in the same area as the raid.

SRS is for people who want crafting to mean nothing like it does in WOW and for people who don't know what there favorite play style is and just want everything like the 7 level 60 characters they had in WOW.

So if you want a real pvp experience with real consequence then SCS is the way to go, but you don't and you think SRS is they way to go then just go back to WOW and let people who want a tough pvp enviroment have Darkfall.

The first basic skills will be fast it gets a lot harder after a while. The overall soft skill cap is a big drawback for this.

Untraining skills also takes time, we don't know how much, but for all we know it can take even weeks.

With multiple chars i still think what i talk and do. In darkfall i do that even more because there is already character accountability with the alignment system.

If you keep getting owned by the same guys you will still log off. The difference now is that you won't log in another char and go do something else but don't log in at all or even quit the game all together.


I played WoW, didn't like it. I am a guy that don't stick to one playstyle tho. So if it's SCS it's either multi accounts and harrass grief and annoy the crap out of all the unlucky people with only 1 account and laugh at their weakness and limitations or i just don't buy darkfall at all.



Taking a break from this thread for now :)

[Sarmatian]

Gunther do you believe it would be a good idea to put down some "limitations" on the SRS system such as alt char switch delay or the like?

[Preston]

Based on what I've heard about the game design system I would like to see only one character per server. I would like characters to be unique and know that people in the world are represented by only 1 character, including my own. If the skill system allows variety and easy retraining, which it sounds like it does.

I think we can also make a more informed decision on this after we test the game. So I would like to see us wait on deciding this issue until beta testing.

[Osirus]

[quote=Vattic]1) no idea what you mean here.

2) "im‧ma‧ture  /ˈɪməˈtʃʊr, -ˈtʊr, -ˈtyʊr, -ˈtʃɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-uh-choor, -toor, -tyoor, -chur]

[Apewall]

The first basic skills will be fast it gets a lot harder after a while. The overall soft skill cap is a big drawback for this.

Untraining skills also takes time, we don't know how much, but for all we know it can take even weeks.

With multiple chars i still think what i talk and do. In darkfall i do that even more because there is already character accountability with the alignment system.

If you keep getting owned by the same guys you will still log off. The difference now is that you won't log in another char and go do something else but don't log in at all or even quit the game all together.


I played WoW, didn't like it. I am a guy that don't stick to one playstyle tho. So if it's SCS it's either multi accounts and harrass grief and annoy the crap out of all the unlucky people with only 1 account and laugh at their weakness and limitations or i just don't buy darkfall at all.

Training skills will be FAR easier than in games like EQ, I'm far content with a UO type skill system and the timeframe for maxing skills with it.

My understanding is that untraining skills will work as a drip. Should be able to predefine which skill you want raised and which you want lowered. So as you raise one skill the other is automatically lowered the corrisponding amount.

Often people do not act the same on different characters believing that they can get away with their actions if that character is not directly connected to their main used character.

If I am getting owned by the same group of guys, I will be calling in my guild and allies for help, and not logging out to play my mining mule.

You are able to change your playstyle on Darkfall without having to create more than one character, so it would be possible to play a different type of character, and its not like you will spend the time to get all your characters to prestige classes if you arent even willing to take the time to change their skills.

[Nefastus]

From CNN news!

http://www.dead-eternity.net/sigs/scs-terrorism.gif

[Icix]

Lol I love the logic here.

[Ammon777]

Taking a break from this thread for now :)
Thank god. Gunther, why dont you just post your opinion once and then leave the thread? Please STFU. Because frankly im getting annoyed by reading your pig-headed persistence. Despite everything youve written and will soon write, you arent going to change our minds / opinions about SCS. Youre just like a relentless SRS missionary on a fucking divine-appointed mission to liberate humanity from SCS opinions: annoying, stupid, and stubborn.

[Razel]

From CNN news!

http://www.dead-eternity.net/sigs/scs-terrorism.gif


hahaha, great this is gona turn into another political thread :bang:

[Shadow Walker2020]

Hahah! Heres the only way ill ever support SCS




I will not pay anything like a full price (purchase or monthly) to play just one character, because I simply will not play one character. I like to develop a lot of characters, on the same server, for reasons of RP, exploring character style, And for the game-mechanics advantage. If they want to go with one character per server (which BETTER mean we're going to see North American servers), they will have to reduce the price to maybe $20, and the monthly to about $5, so I can afford the different characters I want (which Will likely mean I will have different races).



Reduce the monthly fee of the game to $5 bucks, and the price of the game to 20 or 19.99, and its a deal. Other than that, the game will be a rip off.

[Nafelos]

From CNN news!

http://www.dead-eternity.net/sigs/scs-terrorism.gif

LOL

[Gangrel]

For the Sake of REAL Diversity - go for SCS!

Makes everyone unique and have a deeper 'connection' to his character.
If you want to experiment you can still check it out - it's just that it is not as easy as you're used to it.

Take responsibility!
Even for the character you develop.

Agreed!
SCS is in my opinion the better choice from all viewpoints;
RP, Politics, Economy, Realism, Diversity and Morally.

I've always wanted to see a player take real responsibility for what they do, to actually BE the character instead of being someone HAVING any number of specced characters.
The Mastersmith should be known around the area and prized for his craftmanship, not an anonymous alt to 'teh mastersworder'.
People won't have Farming/banking-characters standing by for every occasion
and it would complicate matters for those who would otherwise ply for spying or suicide scouting runs.

In response to arguments such as mine, I've hear people yapping: People would do it anyway, people would double-box, buy multiple accounts - and so on.
Well, look at it this way, folks.
Of course some people would, it's basically unavoidable, but that's not a reason for us to make such disrespectful behavior easier.
If we make it an accepted part of the game, then us others would be forced to do the same in order to stay competitive. (I believe Surly pointed this out before)

The open-ended skillsystem we're supposed to get in Darkfall takes away almost every argument written with reason from the SRC advocates.
The only real Issues i can agree on are the issue with siblings and partners.
But since you keep saying that everyone will double-box and buy extra accounts in order to get around the SCS limitations, why not to help your siblings realise the splendor of DFO?

I'm for SCS 100%.
Thanks for reading.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Thank god. Gunther, why dont you just post your opinion once and then leave the thread? Please STFU. Because frankly im getting annoyed by reading your pig-headed persistence. Despite everything youve written and will soon write, you arent going to change our minds / opinions about SCS. Youre just like a relentless SRS missionary on a fucking divine-appointed mission to liberate humanity from SCS opinions: annoying, stupid, and stubborn.


Look at the pot calling the kettle black. :lmao:

[Apewall]

Hahah! Heres the only way ill ever support SCS





Reduce the monthly fee of the game to $5 bucks, and the price of the game to 20 or 19.99, and its a deal. Other than that, the game will be a rip off.


Are you worried about having a better economy and quality of game, or EASILY changing your playstyle because you're too lazy to do it with your 1 character.

[Saygram]

without addressing your insults or the other parts of your post, here you are assuming that we want crafting to mean nothing. that's false, i for one plan on crafting. please use logic not emotion to make your points like a grownup should.


Sorry i was a bit vague, I was responding to what I felt was a very inappropriate post and didn't clarify what i ment.

By saying you want crafting to mean nothing doesn't mean you will not do crafting it means that you will have a fighting character and a crafting character even if you really don't like crafting. People will do this with a multi-character system and we have seen in done in every MMO with multi-character systems before. This happens because alot of people do not want to deal with finding someone to repair there gear or make them some new gear.

If everyone can craft and have it fully mastered because they have a second character, then being a crafter will mean nothing because so many people will have crafting.

I understand that some hardcore people will buy a second acount and do this anways but, there will be far fewer people with a secondary crafter if it will cost them money to get it.

[Sbrafk]

ill make this short

(srs supporter)

SCS limits the commercial viability of DFO. very few non-target consumers would actually want to buy a sub when they find out theyre limited to SCS. this wouldnt be a problem if the segment the devs were targeting was larger then say, (ideally) 30,000.

most MMO gamers today are so used to the thought of having various characters specialized in different skillsets, they would shun the thought of being so creatively limited. from runescape to WoW to Shadowbane to various singleplayer RPGs, this holds true.

SCS looks great on paper, but will probably end up killing the game in the long run. stagnant consumer base = ftl.

now to play devil's advocate

SCS is advantageous in several important aspects also. players only have one shot, one chance, to not screw up their character's reputation. it holds an interesting RP element, because it forces players to actually care about their avatar. this means a level of player accountability not seen in many MMOs since UO. people will remember you and thus, a reputation is born.

secondly, not many people will be willing to spend their softcap on crafting skills, and even less will dedicate their characters to pumping out weapons/goods full time. the result would probably be a chronic shortage of supplies to fuel war efforts. this is exactly what i want to see. then guilds must actually prepare, and not in a half assed way either. a guild that has a standing army of 100 that wants to invade a fortified city, must stock up for weeks and plan logistics accordingly. not only would it make conflict more meaningful, it would discourage zerging, since a large guild must spend a proportionate amount of effort to keep their army in fighting condition.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Are you worried about having a better economy and quality of game, or EASILY changing your playstyle because you're too lazy to do it with your 1 character.


Well, I played UO back in T2A, back when the game had an economy, and it was a good one, even with multiple characters per server. Players had vendors that were very successful. If anyone ever played Catskills shard, do you remeber the AngleRippers vendor shop next to the moonglow moongate? Perfect example of a successful vendor shop. They sold bandages, armor, reagents, runes, potions, ingots, weapons. etc. Then there was the vendor shops in Occlo. There was this guy, ANVIL, sold the best armor I could find. And sold some good magic stuff too. Stuff I, even though I had a smith, couldnt get my hands on. And dont tell me that everyone can make everything, because there will be items that certain players, probably alot, dont know how to make but others do. Economy isnt about how many characters you have, its about supply and demand. And as long as those two factors are present, and inflation is kept down, an economy will flourish.

Now, with using UO (before runic tools and artifacts) as a perfect example of how an economy can survive with Multiple characters, how can you say it wont work in Darkfall? Theres even more stuff to sell in Darkfall than there was in UO. Players can sell reagents, resources, magic armor and weapons, rare resources, because, lets face it, not everyone is going to be able to acquire red dragon scales, and man, the list just goes on. The only thing that killed UOs economy was the implimentation of artifacts, runic tools and way overpowered item properties.

So, how come UOs economy was flourishing even though it had Multiple characters?

And to answer your question, I want multiple characters because I like to play different styles and dont feel like spending all day revamping a character I already just got up.

[alfaroverall]

ill make this short

(srs supporter)

SCS limits the commercial viability of DFO. very few non-target consumers would actually want to buy a sub when they find out theyre limited to SCS. this wouldnt be a problem if the segment the devs were targeting was larger then say, (ideally) 30,000.

most MMO gamers today are so used to the thought of having various characters specialized in different skillsets, they would shun the thought of being so creatively limited. from runescape to WoW to Shadowbane to various singleplayer RPGs, this holds true.

SCS looks great on paper, but will probably end up killing the game in the long run. stagnant consumer base = ftl.

now to play devil's advocate

SCS is advantageous in several important aspects also. players only have one shot, one chance, to not screw up their character's reputation. it holds an interesting RP element, because it forces players to actually care about their avatar. this means a level of player accountability not seen in many MMOs since UO. people will remember you and thus, a reputation is born.

secondly, not many people will be willing to spend their softcap on crafting skills, and even less will dedicate their characters to pumping out weapons/goods full time. the result would probably be a chronic shortage of supplies to fuel war efforts. this is exactly what i want to see. then guilds must actually prepare, and not in a half assed way either. a guild that has a standing army of 100 that wants to invade a fortified city, must stock up for weeks and plan logistics accordingly. not only would it make conflict more meaningful, it would discourage zerging, since a large guild must spend a proportionate amount of effort to keep their army in fighting condition.
For an SRS advocate your SCS advocation is stronger than that of your SRS. Just saying.

[Dair]

I believe that the single race per server would be the best way to go. This way, one is able to just play what they want without the fear of once they get to master melee or w/e, they dont have to completely lose that if they wish to level a caster. This also allows for trying things out, you dont have to sacrifice your melee skills and then realize a week later that shit... I want those back, that would be a disaster. Just my thoughts.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Are you worried about having a better economy and quality of game, or EASILY changing your playstyle because you're too lazy to do it with your 1 character.


And heres another one for you. Say there is MCS/SRS, and your on your warrior character and he gets killed. You respawn in a town but you cant get back to your house to put your smith on to make you new gear and you dont have anything stored in the bank box there. How are you going to replace your stuff? Answer, you going to walk over to that player over there whos a smith and say, "Hey, man, I just lost all my stuff. Can you make me new armor so I can go get some payback on the jerk-offs who killed me?". And the smith, assuing he himself is not a jerk, will make you some gear and charge you for it. Thus, you have participated in the game economy.

*This is why localized banks are the best bet.

[Sbrafk]

For an SRS advocate your SCS advocation is stronger than that of your SRS. Just saying.

i would prefer darkfall having a growing customerbase rather then a shrinking one.

aventurine shutting down DFO nulls any advantage of SCS.

[SamDog]

Good Sirs;

I would just like to address those who want multiple characters per server.

You have to remember this is a level playing field--all players would face the same constraints that scs imposes. If you think you are slightly hurting your warrior by giving him a few healing or crafting skills--well, we are all in the same boat. When you meet others in battle they are going to have slightly diluted warrior skills as well.

When you say more freedom in choices is more fun--this just isn't true. The constraints make the game (you can't just teleport to and from your favorite spawn, you can't just craft whatever you want with a mule--you have to deal with the guys who are real crafters). The scs is a constraint that makes the game more fun (just like limitations on teleportation). It forces you to react more with the other players when you can't just do anything on your own.

So scs is a limitation, but a very good one. If you think it over and give it a chance I think you will see how it is similar to other good limitations.

yours
SamDog

[Shadow Walker2020]

i would prefer darkfall having a growing customerbase rather then a shrinking one.

aventurine shutting down DFO nulls any advantage of SCS.


QFT.

Cause, in the end, its all bout the benjamins, or Euros....... er, well you get the point.

[Shadow Walker2020]

When you say more freedom in choices is more fun--this just isn't true.



Ladies and Gentlemen, the official stance of the SCS supporters.

[Joiry]

2CSR? Two characters, single race.

[Sarmatian]

i would prefer darkfall having a growing customerbase rather then a shrinking one.

aventurine shutting down DFO nulls any advantage of SCS.

So someone will chose not to play Darkfall at all (a game that offers so many things other games do not) and go back to what we are all doing right now instead of playing Darkfall but being limited to one char per account? I dunno.

If this is truely the case, then so be it.

[Yarias]

I'm a supporter for SCS, but I would be perfectly fine with Keeper of the Star's solution, and since it was like 20 pages ago and I've seen some people referencing it incorrectly, I wanted to state it again.

Situation:

You have 4 characters of the same race, A, B, C, and D.

You wake up in the morning. You log onto character A. Your computer crashes because you had the graphics up to high.

You start up darkfall again, you try to log onto character B, it says, you were on character A in the last XX hours, you must log onto character A or wait ZZ more hours. So, you log onto character A. The timer resets. The next time you log off, if you want to get on character B, C, or D, you have to wait XX hours.

This effectively prevents people from insta-defending a city by binding there alts there. That is the single main problem that I see with SRS, and it can be handled by those timers (something like 2-6 hours sounds reasonable).

Yes, multiple accounts are still a problem, but I don't think there is a way around that.

And just to note, I'm just restating KeeperOfTheStar's proposal.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I feel that if an alt of yours is on a different server, there should be no timer.

[Shadow Walker2020]

So someone will chose not to play Darkfall at all (a game that offers so many things other games do not) and go back to what we are all doing right now instead of playing Darkfall but being limited to one char per account? I dunno.

If this is truely the case, then so be it.


so youd rather see darkfall be shut down rather than it have SRS/MCS?

Wow, someone doesnt have the games best interests in mind.

[Apewall]

QFT.

Cause, in the end, its all bout the benjamins, or Euros....... er, well you get the point.

The developers of darkfall are not your normal Devs, they care more about the quality of the game then making money, as was their mission 5 or so years ago. To make a game they wanted to PLAY.

[Sbrafk]

So someone will chose not to play Darkfall at all (a game that offers so many things other games do not) and go back to what we are all doing right now instead of playing Darkfall but being limited to one char per account?

its really hard to say. customer response cant be gauged, because as far as I can tell, there has been no precedent for true SCS in MMOs.

but what i can say for certain is that it will be uncomfortable for most when they see such a defining aspect of the MMO genre removed. its like chatting on IRC, except you cant open more then one channel.

[Shadow Walker2020]

The developers of darkfall are not your normal Devs, they care more about the quality of the game then making money, as was their mission 5 or so years ago. To make a game they wanted to PLAY.

Yeah, 5 years ago, back when it was just Razorwax running things. Since then, Aventurine, a company, has taken over and is now running the show. And companies could give a rats ass less about the quality of the game. They only care about two things, is that game making us money or is it just a drain on our resources? And the game that 5 guys wanted to play solely for their tastes alone wont cut it. They have to bend their vision just enough to make the game as appeal to as many customers as they can. This way, the game will be bringing in money and it wont get shut down.

Thats a nature of business. And in the MMORPG Business, unessisary risks lead to down falls. SRS/MCS will work. Its been proven in the past. The devs are taking a big enough risk as it is with making a PvP centric game. They dont need to narrow down the margin of potential players even more by making the game SCS and alienating the vast majority of players who ahve played and prefer SRS/MCS.

Messing with SRS/MCS is like running down on a subway track and trying to pull out the third rail. Suicide.

[NewRage]

I guess it comes down to people's mindset. A see a few arguments of, I want to experiment, I don't want to waste time leveling a skill on my main if it sucks, etc. I kinda like that idea. It incorporates risk vs. reward. Will you take the chance giving up one of your lesser important main skills to try out this new skill you just found? This is the kind of thing you can't argue with people, some will agree with me that it makes things more interesting, and some will think it's a huge waste of time.

To be honest the only constructive argument I have found has been from Gunther about the prestige classes, which doesn't affect me (from what I gathered so far the price vs perks of prestige classes don't seem worth it for me) but some people may like them. Then again, it goes back to the first paragraph, people should take a risk in choosing something they don't know about. It is possible to change your prestige class, but it will require work. Look into how good a class is before you commit yourself.


so youd rather see darkfall be shut down rather than it have SRS/MCS?

Wow, someone doesnt have the games best interests in mind.
Ummm.... back at you? Read through this thread, look at the polls, the majority seem to be wanting SCS, yet all those that advocate it are trying to make the game fail? The devs asked, because they want the public's opinion, and so far the public seems to be leaning towards SCS, you can't say the majority of people aren't thinking about the game, because they are people willing to pay to play it.

[Drafli]

Well this thread has exploded and have to wonder if many good posts will get lost. With that said im in favour of SCS. If we are able to make more than 1 char i myself will create alts, just like everyone else. We will all have our trader mules, our asshat chars, etc etc.

I'd much rather everyone focus on what they want to do with their main (read only) char. We will end up with more variety, warriors will be warriors and casters, casters and those who like hybrids will have rolls if people are not able to log on an alt to fill their role.

Nothing is stopping people from rolling on another server if they want to try a different style or if family members want to try the game.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Ummm.... back at you? Read through this thread, look at the polls, the majority seem to be wanting SCS, yet all those that advocate it are trying to make the game fail? The devs asked, because they want the public's opinion, and so far the public seems to be leaning towards SCS, you can't say the majority of people aren't thinking about the game, because they are people willing to pay to play it.


One big problem with your statment, you, the SCS supporters here on THESE forums, are the minority compared to the millions of other gamers out there. You can only speak for your faction on the forums. Try having a poll on a web site, oh like say, IGN, where millions of different gamers go every day, not just those who are on the forums. The devs have to make a game thats not just appealing to us here. No, they have to make a game that appeals to PvP gamers all over the world.

Sure, your going to pay to play this game, but the number of SCS supporters here on the forums wont be enough to keep the game afloat, Financially. Its narrowing down the potential player base too much. If they go SCS, I can guarentee that most, if not all, of those who want SRS/MCS will leave the forums and discard Darkfall. Can the developers really take that chance? Their game is new. This is their first attempt at an MMORPG. There is pressure on them since they promised so much player freedom. If this game cant meet its first Financial Quota, Aventurine will have no choice but to cut the game. So, can they really afford to take the chance of SCS? No, they cant. These peoples livelyhoods are at stake there. This game is already a big enough gamble, they dont need to limit their potential player base anymore by alienating SRS/MCS players.


You know what, You SCSers what to play one character, fine. If the game is SRS/MCS, the only make one character. Youll still get your immersion and all that other stuff you preach SCS brings. Then youll bitch, then everyone eles will have an advantage over me. Well, DUH! thats how life goes. People have advantages over you. You said you wanted realism, well whats more real then being at the bottom of the barrel in life.

And people who buy multiple accounts are going to have advantages over you in SCS only. Then youll bitch about that. Do you think the devs are going to stop people from buying more than one account just because they arent playing by your rules? HAHAHAAH! :lamo: Thats where business comes into play again. And what will be the most ironic part, the people who will buy mutiple accounts will be the ones who claim they wont. :lmao: You SCSers think youve got it all figured out. Well, I can tell you this, you dont. Say im noob or flame me or whatever, but its the solid truth.

The beauty of SRS/MCS, the choice. You dontHAVE to make more than one character. Its your choice if you want to play only one. Then, youll still have the option of being able to make another character, if you so choose.

Oh, and incase you say that its hypocritical of me to say that SCS is bad for business eventhough it will force players to buy multiple accounts, hehe, well, im not. No one wants to be forced to have to buy more than one account. It will make the game look greedy and will call into question the managment of the game. Players will look and see all of DFs cool features. But then theyll read that its only one character per server and the monthly fee and laugh. Alot of people cant afford two accounts, either. Its smart business to offer players more bang for their buck. 5 characters for 10 bucks a month. Sounds like a better deal than 1 character for 10 bucks a month.

[Elix]

One big problem with your statment, you, the SCS supporters here on THESE forums, are the minority compared to the millions of other gamers out there. You can only speak for your faction on the forums. Try having a poll on a web site, oh like say, IGN, where millions of different gamers go every day, not just those who are on the forums. The devs have to make a game thats not just appealing to us here. No, they have to make a game that appeals to PvP gamers all over the world.

Sure, your going to pay to play this game, but the number of SCS supporters here on the forums wont be enough to keep the game afloat, Financially. Its narrowing down the potential player base too much. If they go SCS, I can guarentee that most, if not all, of those who want SRS/MCS will leave the forums and discard Darkfall. Can the developers really take that chance? Their game is new. This is their first attempt at an MMORPG. There is pressure on them since they promised so much player freedom. If this game cant meet its first Financial Quota, Aventurine will have no choice but to cut the game. So, can they really afford to take the chance of SCS? No, they cant. These peoples livelyhoods are at stake there. This game is already a big enough gamble, they dont need to limit their potential player base anymore by alienating SRS/MCS players.

Sir, I think it might be time for a good old quote. Thank you, Porthios.

"To the Darkfall Developers: Don't fail us like many others have failed us before. We have faith in you, hold our faith close and use it to fuel your drive to make the game that will become a genre of its own (DFX)"

Darkfall is built around a small community. They aren't going to pussy out on us and cater to the so called "casual" gamer. -- boring people who think raiding monsters is fun.

[Drafli]

One big problem with your statment, you, the SCS supporters here on THESE forums, are the minority compared to the millions of other gamers out there. You can only speak for your faction on the forums. Try having a poll on a web site, oh like say, IGN, where millions of different gamers go every day, not just those who are on the forums. The devs have to make a game thats not just appealing to us here. No, they have to make a game that appeals to PvP gamers all over the world.

Sure, your going to pay to play this game, but the number of SCS supporters here on the forums wont be enough to keep the game afloat, Financially. Its narrowing down the potential player base too much. If they go SCS, I can guarentee that most, if not all, of those who want SRS/MCS will leave the forums and discard Darkfall. Can the developers really take that chance? Their game is new. This is their first attempt at an MMORPG. There is pressure on them since they promised so much player freedom. If this game cant meet its first Financial Quota, Aventurine will have no choice but to cut the game. So, can they really afford to take the chance of SCS? No, they cant. These peoples livelyhoods are at stake there. This game is already a big enough gamble, they dont need to limit their potential player base anymore by alienating SRS/MCS players.

I really don't think SCS will stop people trying the game. Most of those people you are attempting to use in your debate would shy away from DF because of full loot, not SCS

[Apewall]

One big problem with your statment, you, the SCS supporters here on THESE forums, are the minority compared to the millions of other gamers out there. You can only speak for your faction on the forums. Try having a poll on a web site, oh like say, IGN, where millions of different gamers go every day, not just those who are on the forums. The devs have to make a game thats not just appealing to us here. No, they have to make a game that appeals to PvP gamers all over the world.

Sure, your going to pay to play this game, but the number of SCS supporters here on the forums wont be enough to keep the game afloat, Financially. Its narrowing down the potential player base too much. If they go SCS, I can guarentee that most, if not all, of those who want SRS/MCS will leave the forums and discard Darkfall. Can the developers really take that chance? Their game is new. This is their first attempt at an MMORPG. There is pressure on them since they promised so much player freedom. If this game cant meet its first Financial Quota, Aventurine will have no choice but to cut the game. So, can they really afford to take the chance of SCS? No, they cant. These peoples livelyhoods are at stake there. This game is already a big enough gamble, they dont need to limit their potential player base anymore by alienating SRS/MCS players.


Honestly its not my concern what the mass populous wants, because they are mostly New gamers who don't know what they want yet. I dont really care if DF has one server and only 3000 users, the community base will be about 100000 times better.

Go read the WoW general forums, those are the type of people YOU want to cater to.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Sir, I think it might be time for a good old quote. Thank you, Porthios.

"To the Darkfall Developers: Don't fail us like many others have failed us before. We have faith in you, hold our faith close and use it to fuel your drive to make the game that will become a genre of its own (DFX)"

Darkfall is built around a small community. They aren't going to pussy out on us and cater to the so called "casual" gamer. -- boring people who think raiding monsters is fun.

Its time for an even older quote:

[QUOTE= Darkfallonline.com FAQ]You don

[NewRage]

How do you know that the board is the minority? If they had said for years that it was going to be SCS (scaring off the SRS fans), then all of a sudden asked what we wanted, I would agree, but thanks to that nice quote you have in your sig, it acutally shows that they were planning to go the other way. With the population that shows up on the board from time to time, I would say we probably have a good spread of PvP fans, and whatever they decide would be the same outcome if you asked a larger group of PvP fans... Why are we more prejudice towards SCS then other people out there would be? We're not, you just don't realize you are the minority.

[Fatcrusher]

I just had a great idea!!

What you could do is make it SRS HOWEVER (here is the catch) your main character will have a big shiny M over his head so that people know its your main, if you log into your alt then they will have a big shiny A over there head and then you..............

"omfg what am i talking about"

*wapish wapish*

"back to the cellar"

Anyway, i earlier said that i liked the idea of SCS, and i stand firm on that from a personal perspective, but i was thinking (yea, dangerous i know).

When it comes to release, there is gonna be a whole lot of new people wanting to try this game, alot more than some people think. Alot of these new people are good for providing money to support the game, but there also good at spamming the forums with posts like

"1 CHARAKTER ?? WTUFKZ I AM BEING ROBBD, THIS IS BULL5HIT"

[Shadow Walker2020]

Honestly its not my concern what the mass populous wants, because they are mostly New gamers who don't know what they want yet. I dont really care if DF has one server and only 3000 users, the community base will be about 100000 times better.

Oh, you should. the mass populous is where the wayward PvP seekers are. They are looking for a game about Freedom and PvP. And they dont like to be limited by lousy systems.

And you think the company supporting Darkfall cares about how good the community base is? Nope, they only care about how much money the game is generating for them.


Go read the WoW general forums, those are the type of people YOU want to cater to.

You know, its really pathetic that you have to keep referencing a game that is nothing like Darkfall. Atleast when I reference UO, Im actually taking about a game this one is based on. So take your WoW BS and shove it up your ass till it pours out of your mouth like the oral diareah it is.

[Apewall]

Oh, you should. the mass populous is where the wayward PvP seekers are. They are looking for a game about Freedom and PvP. And they dont like to be limited by lousy systems.

And you think the company supporting Darkfall cares about how good the community base is? Nope, they only care about how much money the game is generating for them.



You know, its really pathetic that you have to keep referencing a game that is nothing like Darkfall. Atleast when I reference UO, Im actually taking about a game this one is based on. So take your WoW BS and shove it up your ass till it pours out of your mouth like the oral diareah it is.

I'm merely referring that WoW players are the "mass population", people who want to play a game like UO are not, we are the minority.

[Osirus]

Darkfall is a niche game. imo, that means the devs don't want to cater to the masses, as they are aimng at a specific market. I don't think the devs expect to have subscription numbers of millions of gamers. an SCS system would not hurt the game in any way, shape, or form.

[Shadow Walker2020]

How do you know that the board is the minority? If they had said for years that it was going to be SCS (scaring off the SRS fans), then all of a sudden asked what we wanted, I would agree, but thanks to that nice quote you have in your sig, it acutally shows that they were planning to go the other way.

The quote states they were going with SRS. Even the old devs quotes from 01' state this. It is nothing new. Claus even said in the old devs quotes that they were going with SRS/MCS. So how does this one quote, which stated that they want one race per server and there are no other limitations other than that and re-enforces the quotes from 01', indicate they were going with SCS? Answer, its doesnt. It says they were going with SRS. And the only way SRS could be enforced is with an MCS in place.


With the population that shows up on the board from time to time, I would say we probably have a good spread of PvP fans, and whatever they decide would be the same outcome if you asked a larger group of PvP fans... Why are we more prejudice towards SCS then other people out there would be? We're not, you just don't realize you are the minority.

Yeah a population that shows from time to time, half supporting SCS and the other half supporting SRS/MCS. The only reason the game has a good spread is because the game appeals to DIFFERENT TYPES OF PVPERS. And also there are people with multiple usernames on here. So you really cant go by how many usernames are currently registered here on the forums. I wouldnt be surprised if half of the responces in this thread alone are from 4 people with multiple usernames.

Minority. No. SRS advocates are needed to keep the game going just as much as SCS advicates. SCS sub fees wont be enough to keep the game going. They need to have either SRS/MCS or both SRS/MCS and SCS. Having two servers for both would be the optimal choice. It would guarentee a larger number of players to come and play the game.

SCSer have to face it, you need SRS/MCSers for the game to succeed.

[Shadow Walker2020]

I'm merely referring that WoW players are the "mass population", people who want to play a game like UO are not, we are the minority.


And where do you think most of those people who are playing WoW came from? they came from UO after the great AOS exodus. And I can assure you that if you place a game that did play just like old UO like DF is supposed to, that they would leave WoW and come play DF. And one of the features of old UO was MCS.

[Ammon777]

Oh, you should. the mass populous is where the wayward PvP seekers are. They are looking for a game about Freedom and PvP. And they dont like to be limited by lousy systems.

And you think the company supporting Darkfall cares about how good the community base is? Nope, they only care about how much money the game is generating for them.

You know, its really pathetic that you have to keep referencing a game that is nothing like Darkfall. Atleast when I reference UO, Im actually taking about a game this one is based on. So take your WoW BS and shove it up your ass till it pours out of your mouth like the oral diareah it is.
You are ignorant of Darkfall history. LEARN SOME FUCKING HISTORY before you make these HUGE moronic assumptions about a company. Aventurine is not a greed-based company, moron. Aventurine was started by the Darkfall devs, and the company Aventurine was created for Darkfall, not the other way around. LEARN SOME HISTORY. Ive been here 5 years, i know who Aventurine is because i was paying attention when it was formed. Its mission is solely to make Darkfall a good game. Aventurine does NOt cater to the majority, they are focused on making Darkfall a great game. So take your Aventurine greed BS and shove it up your ass til it pours out of your mouth like the oral diareah that it is. ROFL.

[PaleOne]

Neither of these choices are the best in my opinion.

But we need more information on..

Racial differances and attribute differances and their effects on skills.

Meaning If Orcs are naturally attribute wise better melee's and Mahirim better scouts or Elves/alfar better casters and humans a compromise and better hybrids It will suck to be stuck to one character or even one race.

I think the only reason to bring up this subject is to stop the possibility of pvp spying and the answer to that is

SFS

Single Faction per server.

You can either be

Orc/Mahirim or Human/ Elf/ Dorf or Alfar


The Same limitations enforced on guilds should be enforced on your account.

Guilds should declare their racial makeup and then all members of said guild should be limited to those racial choices.

Pake

[Tongue]

1. did i say you were stuck with it? I said that it will take a LOT of time to refine and remake your char, it might as well be faster to reroll your char completely, this is a major downtime and a grind that people don't want.

2. Sure reroll your char again. Changing a crafter to a meleer would be a bitch. Prolyl comparable to refining every skill on a shadowbane character and then retraining him, except for teh XP part.

3. That's why some guilds with secundary crafter accounts will eventually get a monopoly on the crafter market.

4. I do give a jack about the server situation. I want to play on a euro server cause i don't want to get owned by people that win cause they got a better con to theri server.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that respecing skills in DF is going to be a long and laborious task ... similar to rerolling in other games. There are a lot probablys and mights in your arguement. What we do know is what the devs said recently

"While we believe that Darkfall's skill system ensures never having to reroll a character, meaning that one character slot per world is enough..."

And in #4 I meant to type "We don't know jack about the server situation." Meaning no one can really say for sure how many servers there will be at launch.

[Shadow Walker2020]

I really don't think SCS will stop people trying the game. Most of those people you are attempting to use in your debate would shy away from DF because of full loot, not SCS


Let me tell you something. Alot of the PvP players floating around out there are from old UO. In T2A, UO had the highest subscription rate. It was full loot and PvP. They would kill for a chance to play a game that offeres the same experience they once had. And one of the great things about UO was its MCS. UO only had one race originally, thats why SRS would have to be implimented in DF.

[WoOpin]

1 Char per server.

As said before saves people making multiple chars and they have to call for there own actions.

As its open pvp been able to have loads of alt chars would just mean you can never trust no one.

[Shadow Walker2020]

You are ignorant of Darkfall history. LEARN SOME FUCKING HISTORY before you make these HUGE moronic assumptions about a company. Aventurine is not a greed-based company, moron. Aventurine was started by the Darkfall devs, and the company Aventurine was created for Darkfall, not the other way around. LEARN SOME HISTORY. Ive been here 5 years, i know who Aventurine is because i was paying attention when it was formed. Its mission is solely to make Darkfall a good game. Aventurine does NOt cater to the majority, they are focused on making Darkfall a great game. So take your Aventurine greed BS and shove it up your ass til it pours out of your mouth like the oral diareah that it is. ROFL.

Yeah, post a link to the article that states Aventurine was made soley for Darkfall.

[Ammon777]

And where do you think most of those people who are playing WoW came from? they came from UO after the great AOS exodus. And I can assure you that if you place a game that did play just like old UO like DF is supposed to, that they would leave WoW and come play DF. And one of the features of old UO was MCS.
You are a moron. I love these stupid assumptions you are making, they serve to discredit everything you say. The VAST majority of World of Warcraft players came from Warcraft games, others are new to MMOs, and most others came from Diablo 2 and Starcraft. The minority came from UO. Im talking about about 250,000 gamers came from UO and AC1 and EQ combined, hardly 7 million that are playing WoW right now. Get your fucked up facts straight before you talk, and then i might respect your opinion.

[Osirus]

The quote states they were going with SRS. Even the old devs quotes from 01' state this. It is nothing new. Claus even said in the old devs quotes that they were going with SRS/MCS. So how does this one quote, which stated that they want one race per server and there are no other limitations other than that and re-enforces the quotes from 01', indicate they were going with SCS? Answer, its doesnt. It says they were going with SRS. And the only way SRS could be enforced is with an MCS in place.



Yeah a population that shows from time to time, half supporting SCS and the other half supporting SRS/MCS. The only reason the game has a good spread is because the game appeals to DIFFERENT TYPES OF PVPERS. And also there are people with multiple usernames on here. So you really cant go by how many usernames are currently registered here on the forums. I wouldnt be surprised if half of the responces in this thread alone are from 4 people with multiple usernames.

Minority. No. SRS advocates are needed to keep the game going just as much as SCS advicates. SCS sub fees wont be enough to keep the game going. They need to have either SRS/MCS or both SRS/MCS and SCS. Having two servers for both would be the optimal choice. It would guarentee a larger number of players to come and play the game.

SCSer have to face it, you need SRS/MCSers for the game to succeed.

success is measured by more than subscription numbers; you make is seem as if SCS will break the game comepletely = propagation of the fear agenda!

seems that no MCS supporters want to give SCS a fair chance ... which is utter bullshit. we've all experienced MCS in previous games, while not all of us have experienced SCS. I say the devs grab their nuts and roll with SCS during beta. if it proves to be fatal to Darkfall's longevity ... they can always add additional character slots.

[Shadow Walker2020]

You are a moron. I love these stupid assumptions you are making, they serve to discredit everything you say. The VAST majority of World of Warcraft players came from Warcraft games, others are new to MMOs, and most others came from Diablo 2 and Starcraft. The minority came from UO. Im talking about about 250,000 gamers came from UO and AC1 and EQ combined, hardly 7 million that are playing WoW right now. Get your fucked up facts straight before you talk, and then i might respect your opinion.


And start talking like an adult and I might respect yours.

And yeah, youve been here for 5 years? Thats why your join date says 2003. Youve only been here 3 years. Learn to count.

[Ammon777]

Yeah, post a link to the article that states Aventurine was made soley for Darkfall.
You, sir, are a bonafide fucking retard.

Aventurine SA is an online game developer and publisher based in Athens, Greece that was formed in October 2002. Aventurine SA is currently developing Darkfall Online.

"November 28, 2005 - Back in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August, a fantasy online world called Darkfall... Perhaps fittingly, the developers opted to move to Greece, becoming the core of a new company, Aventurine."
-- http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/671/671666p1.html

"Razorwax started working on Darkfall in Norway with four developers who are now part of Aventurine in Greece. Aventurine was founded with the purpose of developing and publishing Darkfall. As we speak, there are 22 people in-house working full time on the game, as well as a few more outside of the company. Along the way we've hired several new developers --as needed, we've replaced a few people as well, but the original Aventurine/Razorwax people remain with the project. Right now we're hiring two more programmers, and that's what's happening on our human resources front :)"
-- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/86/gameID/4/

Burned. :lmao:

[Ammon777]

And start talking like an adult and I might respect yours.

And yeah, youve been here for 5 years? Thats why your join date says 2003. Youve only been here 3 years. Learn to count.
Once again, your retardness is amazing. And i dont give a shit if you dont respect me or my opinion.

I was here when there was a different website.

[Shadow Walker2020]

You, sir, are a bonafide fucking retard.

Aventurine SA is an online game developer and publisher based in Athens, Greece that was formed in October 2002. Aventurine SA is currently developing Darkfall Online.

"November 28, 2005 - Back in 2001, we became aware of a Norwegian-based development team bearing an unusual name, Razorwax. It consisted of only a few people, not nearly the number some observers might have expected given the nature of the project they announced that August, a fantasy online world called Darkfall... Perhaps fittingly, the developers opted to move to Greece, becoming the core of a new company, Aventurine."
-- http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/671/671666p1.html

"Razorwax started working on Darkfall in Norway with four developers who are now part of Aventurine in Greece. Aventurine was founded with the purpose of developing and publishing Darkfall. As we speak, there are 22 people in-house working full time on the game, as well as a few more outside of the company. Along the way we've hired several new developers --as needed, we've replaced a few people as well, but the original Aventurine/Razorwax people remain with the project. Right now we're hiring two more programmers, and that's what's happening on our human resources front :)"
-- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/86/gameID/4/

Burned. :lmao:


Alright, I was wrong about that. But, it still doesnt change the fact that unless the game generates enough revenu, it will fail.

[Elix]

And thats from the devs mouthes themselves, not porthios, a mere poster here on the forums. Thank you Darkfall Devs.

I'm not talking about casual gamers who only play for two hours a day. I'm talking about carebears and people who want an evolving world with danger and meaning.

You said that SCS would hinder Darkfall's success and then I quoted a veteran Darkfall member, who has been around since Darkfall was just a dream.

Well, hinder or not, it is what the devs want. Darkfall is a niche game and they are catering to us, not to whoever you listed below in your previous post (something about the average member on IGN).


SCSer have to face it, you need SRS/MCSers for the game to succeed.

Completely false.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Once again, your retardness is amazing. And i dont give a shit if you dont respect me or my opinion.

And your stupidity shines through as clear as day with each childish remark you make.


I was here when there wasnt forums.

Riiiight. Im sure you were.

[Ammon777]

Yeah, youre wrong on most of your arguments.

Ive proven my points, and i grow weary of talking to retards like ShadowWalker 2020, so im out of this discussion. Im confident that the Darkfall devs will do the right thing, and will not go broke by doing it.

/sign off :lmao:

[Ammon777]

And your stupidity shines through as clear as day with each childish remark you make.

Riiiight. Im sure you were.

Yes i was here, faggot. I remember the DAY they ANNOUNCED Darkfall. They DIDNT HAVE A FORUM YET. I dont have to prove it to retards like you, though, to make myself feel better. I was playing AC1 when that happened.

/sign off...

[Malishan]

Thank god. Gunther, why dont you just post your opinion once and then leave the thread? Please STFU. Because frankly im getting annoyed by reading your pig-headed persistence. Despite everything youve written and will soon write, you arent going to change our minds / opinions about SCS. Youre just like a relentless SRS missionary on a fucking divine-appointed mission to liberate humanity from SCS opinions: annoying, stupid, and stubborn.

HAHA thats funny. Because he hasn't changed his mind to YOUR opinion he's stubborn and stupid. This is all a matter of opinion, and there are just as many "stubborn and stupid" posters on both sides.

[NewRage]

The quote states they were going with SRS. Even the old devs quotes from 01' state this. It is nothing new. Claus even said in the old devs quotes that they were going with SRS/MCS. So how does this one quote, which stated that they want one race per server and there are no other limitations other than that and re-enforces the quotes from 01', indicate they were going with SCS? Answer, its doesnt. It says they were going with SRS. And the only way SRS could be enforced is with an MCS in place.

I'm sorry, I thought you could read between the lines. I was implying that the community here isn't predisposed to SCS, because like you pointed out, all along they have been saying it will be SRS. Now if at the beginning they said it was SCS, then only people who like SCS would still be following the game.

However they said it would be SRS the whole time, then throw out the idea of only having SCS, and 62% of the people (so far that voted in this (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=26157) poll) like it.

Now that I explained it to you, can you give a reason why you believe that the majority on this forum are the minority in the PvP MMORPG world?


Minority. No. SRS advocates are needed to keep the game going just as much as SCS advicates. SCS sub fees wont be enough to keep the game going. They need to have either SRS/MCS or both SRS/MCS and SCS. Having two servers for both would be the optimal choice. It would guarentee a larger number of players to come and play the game.

SCSer have to face it, you need SRS/MCSers for the game to succeed.
Minority. Yes.
minority-noun 1. the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole

And by the way, saying SCS need SRS people is no different then saying SRS people need SCS, so it's not really a valid argument.

That being said, I have no problem with the bolded part.

[Narayan]

They're going to need a poopsmith(s) to get anything valuable out of this thread.

[Shadow Walker2020]

I'm not talking about casual gamers who only play for two hours a day. I'm talking about carebears and people who want an evolving world with danger and meaning.

Uh huh. And having multiple characters eliminates the risk of getting killed how? Its easy to spout out buzz words like carbear and such.

I could just as easily say that SCS supporters are Carebears because they dont want anyone having alternate character to switch between so no one can have an advnatage over them. Like having a evil character and a good one. You want everyone to have to be responsible for every little thing they do so you can get an easy paybay kill on them. Thats the only reason. You want Darkfall to be "Cheers". Where "everybody knows your name". If you aske me, thats uber carebear. :lmao:


You said that SCS would hinder Darkfall's success and then I quoted a veteran Darkfall member, who has been around since Darkfall was just a dream.

It doesnt change the fact that you quoted a forum user. His opinion is bias and does not repersent the official stance of the devs...... as a matter of fact, nothing really does.


Well, hinder or not, it is what the devs want. Darkfall is a niche game and they are catering to us, not to whoever you listed below in your previous post (something about the average member on IGN).

Do you really know what the devs want? I dont even think the devs know what the devs want. They flip-flop more than a politician during campaign time. Do you know what that is a sign of? Doubt. They must not be too confident in their project as you think. Im right, theyve got alot riding on all of this. They cant afford a screw up. And the more indicisive they are, the more the doubt and lack of confidence shows.

[Malishan]

success is measured by more than subscription numbers; you make is seem as if SCS will break the game comepletely = propagation of the fear agenda!

seems that no MCS supporters want to give SCS a fair chance ... which is utter bullshit. we've all experienced MCS in previous games, while not all of us have experienced SCS. I say the devs grab their nuts and roll with SCS during beta. if it proves to be fatal to Darkfall's longevity ... they can always add additional character slots.

Turn that around and say that no SCS supporters want to give SRS a chance. Same thing. SRS with common last names is still a big improvement over standard MCS.

You're never going to know if its fatal for DF's longevity until it is TOO LATE. Baby steps! DF is already pushing the envelope, and thats a good thing, as long as they don't push it too far..

[Rouzuki]

SRS would probably be the best way to go about doing it as much as I favor SCS. For reasons such as multiple account users, if my gf or sibling wants to play on my server but doesn't have a computer/account of their own atleast they can make another character same race. Reason why I would rather have SCS personally is I like the fact that you are that person and don't have multiple identities to a community. If I want to do something else I play on another East coast server. If there are no other east coast servers, well fuck me I can't play a different race anyway if it is SRS.

[Osirus]

Turn that around and say that no SCS supporters want to give SRS a chance. Same thing. SRS with common last names is still a big improvement over standard MCS.

You're never going to know if its fatal for DF's longevity until it is TOO LATE. Baby steps! DF is already pushing the envelope, and thats a good thing, as long as they don't push it too far..


don't let the 'single race' in SRS skew your logic ... it's still Multiple Characters, and we've seen MCS systems in 50 other games ... apples and tomatoes.

trying SCS during beta would not hurt the game at all ... no one on this thread would turn down playing beta if all it offered was SCS.

[Shadow Walker2020]

I'm sorry, I thought you could read between the lines. I was implying that the community here isn't predisposed to SCS, because like you pointed out, all along they have been saying it will be SRS. Now if at the beginning they said it was SCS, then only people who like SCS would still be following the game.

True, if the game were SCS from the start, then only SCS fans would be following it. But since SRS appeals to both sides....... ahhhh, I see, I see. oopse.


However they said it would be SRS the whole time, then throw out the idea of only having SCS, and 62% of the people (so far that voted in this (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=26157) poll) like it.

Now that I explained it to you, can you give a reason why you believe that the majority on this forum are the minority in the PvP MMORPG world?

Because we are only a small faction of the potential player base out there.



Minority. Yes.
minority-noun 1. the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole

So, basically everyone on the fourms is the minority.


And by the way, saying SCS need SRS people is no different then saying SRS people need SCS, so it's not really a valid argument.

I never said that SRS/MCS didnt need the SCS. both need one another to ensure that the game succeeds.


That being said, I have no problem with the bolded part.

Its a no risk move on the devs part. They dont need to gamble with following only one of the systems. Impliment both and resolve the issue completely.

[Airius Droc]

In my opinion Single Race Per Server with the same alignment/last name would be the best solution. It allows players to diversify a bit, and at the same time keep them accountable on the server.

From a business stand point, I agree. This would be the best of both worlds, the sane and the insane, allowing for maximim revenue potential, while also creating an accountable game environment (more so than we've ever seen). However, if I had to make a decision using my own money, and my own game design principles, I'd personally lock it down at one character per server and never look back. There's so much history with other games, we already know what happens when you allow multiple characters per server, nothing but bad things.

[Malishan]

don't let the 'single race' in SRS skew your logic ... it's still Multiple Characters, and we've seen MCS systems in 50 other games ... apples and tomatoes.

trying SCS during beta would not hurt the game at all ... no one on this thread would turn down playing beta if all it offered was SCS.

No, its not the same, by a long shot. Common last names and alignment make people accountable, which is a big part of the SCS argument. Single race servers also prevent cross faction spying just as well as SCS. SRS is a big enough step.

[Malishan]

From a business stand point, I agree. This would be the best of both worlds, the sane and the insane, allowing for maximim revenue potential, while also creating an accountable game environment (more so than we've ever seen). However, if I had to make a decision using my own money, and my own game design principles, I'd personally lock it down at one character per server and never look back. There's so much history with other games, we already know what happens when you allow multiple characters per server, nothing but bad things.

Exactly, and no matter what anyone thinks, the devs do have to look at it at least partially from a business stand point.

[Vattic]

how come everyone keeps saying that scs encourages community and accountability? if i have two characters, same race, same last name then it's rather obvious that i'm the same player. this accountability is the exact same. if you want to punish character a for something character b did, then you could. you'd be messing up this "immersion" that you keep talking about though, so that's kind of contradictory imo.

as for community, how is community any tighter? i think that a community is pretty tight when several people in a small guild are willing to sacrifice twice the time of your average player in order to play several alts and make the guild stronger as a whole. so far i haven't seen anyone give a solid reason why community is stronger or why accountability is greater with scs.

also, i've heard people comment that it's more realistic to have scs because they can train them to do anything in the game. right. look, in real life if i were to grow up fighting in the streets and become really tough, then get sent to jail where i have an epiphany and start studying my ass off to get a degree in medicine, it's not like i suddenly lose my muscles and reflexes and become a nerd. neither does it mean that if i try hard enough that i can do every single thing that any other human being on earth is capable of. to me, having a single character and then changing them constantly defeats the purpose of character creation.why specialize when with enough time you will have all of the most important skills in the game, just like everyone else?

i've also heard it argued that scs means uniqueness. i don't see how this is unique at all. think of it this way, yeah for a year or so maybe characters will be different. but with the possibility of learning every skill in the game eventually you can't tell me that people are going to hit their softcap and not pick up every other useful skill that's out there. to me, this spells out a recipe for every character becoming more and more like every other one over time. someone please prove me wrong with some logic.

[Nevr]

SCS

The only arguement I've heard of why it shouldn't be in is the self proclaimed roleplayers who want more than one distinct & seperate character. For everyone else, a second character is just an extension of their first... either an alt or a mule. I've never once actually encourtered one of these self proclaimed roleplayers in all my years of gameing, so I'm inclined to think they don't exist. So, in other words the people who won't want SCS just want a mule or an alt PK.

Generally the wannabe PKs argue that by denying them their right to an alt (since they can't actually hack it as PKs without a blue character) all your really doing is disadvantaging people who don't buy two accounts. So what. If you want to have an alt PK, because you can't handle being red, I don't feel much sympathy that you've been burdoned with having to pay for two accounts.

Truth.

[Sarmatian]

so youd rather see darkfall be shut down rather than it have SRS/MCS?

Wow, someone doesnt have the games best interests in mind.

I meant if having SCS will truely prevent many people from playing darkfall, then implement SRS and don't look back. I didn't word that right and was on my out the door.

I don't think you can say DF will fail if it has SCS. That is pure speculation.

[Osirus]

how come everyone keeps saying that scs encourages community and accountability? if i have two characters, same race, same last name then it's rather obvious that i'm the same player. this accountability is the exact same. if you want to punish character a for something character b did, then you could. you'd be messing up this "immersion" that you keep talking about though, so that's kind of contradictory imo.

as for community, how is community any tighter? i think that a community is pretty tight when several people in a small guild are willing to sacrifice twice the time of your average player in order to play several alts and make the guild stronger as a whole. so far i haven't seen anyone give a solid reason why community is stronger or why accountability is greater with scs.

also, i've heard people comment that it's more realistic to have scs because they can train them to do anything in the game. right. look, in real life if i were to grow up fighting in the streets and become really tough, then get sent to jail where i have an epiphany and start studying my ass off to get a degree in medicine, it's not like i suddenly lose my muscles and reflexes and become a nerd. neither does it mean that if i try hard enough that i can do every single thing that any other human being on earth is capable of. to me, having a single character and then changing them constantly defeats the purpose of character creation.why specialize when with enough time you will have all of the most important skills in the game, just like everyone else?

i've also heard it argued that scs means uniqueness. i don't see how this is unique at all. think of it this way, yeah for a year or so maybe characters will be different. but with the possibility of learning every skill in the game eventually you can't tell me that people are going to hit their softcap and not pick up every other useful skill that's out there. to me, this spells out a recipe for every character becoming more and more like every other one over time. someone please prove me wrong with some logic.

hope you get some 'logical' feedback on this one.

1. we don't know if there is going to be shared lastnames. but since you brought it up ... player Vattic has 2 Human character, 1 evil and 1 good. player Osirus has only 1 character. Evil Vattic is a ruthless human pk ... he manages to kill the human Paladin; Billybob Osirus. player Vattic logs Evil Vattic off to log in with Goodguy Vattic ... Billybob Osirus later sees Goodguy Vattic and wants to smash his face with a bottle of bawls ... but he's not really wanting to take an alignment hit for it ... and he's not the type to pay other people to do it for him, he's a Paladin after all.

2. so instead of having 20 dedicated/specialized characters, you'd rather it be 10 players with 2 characters each?

1.2.5 accountability is not the whole argument.

3/4. I think you've gone overboard with the reference to real life. people will not only specialize, but also maximize regardless of whether a SCS or SRS system is put in place.

[Sarmatian]

Let me tell you something. Alot of the PvP players floating around out there are from old UO. In T2A, UO had the highest subscription rate. It was full loot and PvP. They would kill for a chance to play a game that offeres the same experience they once had. And one of the great things about UO was its MCS. UO only had one race originally, thats why SRS would have to be implimented in DF.

Hmm. I loved UO when I only had one character. Those early times were probably my favorite now that I think about it. I trained his ass off, hunted, and pvpd. Then I realized fuck this, I'm tired of relying on other people. Thus, I created a mule. It was great, being self-suffient was great. No longer did I give a shit about anyone. The game became so easy. Then the game turned to shit and I quit.

I'll leave the thread now.

[Vattic]

hope you get some 'logical' feedback on this one.

1. we don't know if there is going to be shared lastnames. but since you brought it up ... player Vattic has 2 Human character, 1 evil and 1 good. player Osirus has only 1 character. Evil Vattic is a ruthless human pk ... he manages to kill the human Paladin; Billybob Osirus. player Vattic logs Evil Vattic off to log in with Goodguy Vattic ... Billybob Osirus later sees Goodguy Vattic and wants to smash his face with a bottle of bawls ... but he's not really wanting to take an alignment hit for it ... and he's not the type to pay other people to do it for him, he's a Paladin after all.

2. so instead of having 20 dedicated/specialized characters, you'd rather it be 10 players with 2 characters each?

1.2.5 accountability is not the whole argument.

3/4. I think you've gone overboard with the reference to real life. people will not only specialize, but also maximize regardless of whether a SCS or SRS system is put in place.

in your first example where your paladin wants to crush my evil character but can't because i logged him off, what do you want me to say? you shouldn't be able to beat up my second character just because i was roleplaying my first. you should wait to see the one that actually wronged you in game and take him out if you can. anything else is breaking the "immersion" and it's also destroying accountability at the same time since the character that did the dead isn't the one being punished.

as for your second point, no i'd rather have 3-4 characters of my own that excell in what they do. i'd like to have those playstyle options available to me without having to sacrifice the skills that i've already gained which is the scenario for scs. also with scs i forsee every player having a character with whatever top skills it's decided by the playerbase to be desirable within a couple of years so that no one is unique. i feel like having 3 or so seperate characters is fast, and fun compared to the alternative offered by scs, and it doesn't ruin roleplay by having a character that "forgets" skills and gains others like some sort of immortal amnesiac.

[Afgar]

Not like anyone will read this but...

1) Last names are a dumb idea. I don't want to have a last name and I don't want to be forced into having one, but if they are used as an accountability system I will be. Were last names even mentioned in the article?

2) Like Surly said, SCS will make space limited and valuable in Darkfall. In WoW, you could either buy extra bank slots for 25 gold + or you could spend 15 minutes running a character to the nearest capital and have it mule stuff up.

I think SCS is the best way to go for the initial server. Some time after release however I'd like to see a free for all server which holds no limits (other than maybe a 8-10 max # of characters limit like in other games).

[Malishan]

Hmm. I loved UO when I only had one character. Those early times were probably my favorite now that I think about it. I trained his ass off, hunted, and pvpd. Then I realized fuck this, I'm tired of relying on other people. Thus, I created a mule. It was great, being self-suffient was great. No longer did I give a shit about anyone. The game became so easy. Then the game turned to shit and I quit.

I'll leave the thread now.

I hate to say it, but the game did not turn to shit because you could have multiple characters. It went to shit because of trammel, among other things. Multiple characters had nothing to do with it.

[Osirus]

in your first example where your paladin wants to crush my evil character but can't because i logged him off, what do you want me to say? you shouldn't be able to beat up my second character just because i was roleplaying my first. you should wait to see the one that actually wronged you in game and take him out if you can. anything else is breaking the "immersion" and it's also destroying accountability at the same time since the character that did the dead isn't the one being punished.

as for your second point, no i'd rather have 3-4 characters of my own that excell in what they do. i'd like to have those playstyle options available to me without having to sacrifice the skills that i've already gained which is the scenario for scs. also with scs i forsee every player having a character with whatever top skills it's decided by the playerbase to be desirable within a couple of years so that no one is unique. i feel like having 3 or so seperate characters is fast, and fun compared to the alternative offered by scs, and it doesn't ruin roleplay by having a character that "forgets" skills and gains others like some sort of immortal amnesiac.

1.
how come everyone keeps saying that scs encourages community and accountability? if i have two characters, same race, same last name then it's rather obvious that i'm the same player. this accountability is the exact same. if you want to punish character a for something character b did, then you could. you'd be messing up this "immersion" that you keep talking about though, so that's kind of contradictory imo. immersion breaker = knowing that you just waxt my paladin with your evil character and now you're standing before me with your good character ... and I can't do anything about it, being a paladin and all.

2. earlier in the thread you were okay with 2 characters ... now it's 3-4. imo, this 'fast is fun' mentallity, is what's wrong with mmo's today ... some want the fix now now! now!!! "where's the precious?"

[Tshark]

I've thought about this and read so much on both viewpoints, but its impossible to come to any conclusion because I have no idea what the fuck this game is like.(to an extent)

We can only make assumptions what the advantages and disadvantages would make or break the game. I don't know how SCS would work for ME because I may feel like playing a caster, melee, or hybrid when I log on. How does the 'rerolling' and 'retraining' system work? How long does it take to retrain a melee to caster? Would it be faster/better to reroll? Will alignment effect my other toons?

The questions can go on and on and they are IMPORTANT questions needed to make a conclusion. We either need beta or much more indepth detail of the skill system, alignment system, craft system, everything.

[Sel'Karim]

When you say more freedom in choices is more fun--this just isn't true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the official stance of the SCS supporters.

Why do you take what he says out of context? Why not address the reason for his claim, rather than make it look like what he is saying is ridiculous?

What samdog says is absolutely true. His example was with teleporting. If teleporting was made easy, that would ruin the game.

Here is a somewhat more ridiculous example, but which still highlights the same issue. Why not let players have the freedom to opt out of pvp? Surely by making pvp compulsory with no safezones, you're "restricting" the freedom of the players who don't wish to get involved in pvp? None of us are going to want that, obviously. So contrary to what Shadow Walker2020 is trying to imply by taking samdog's quote out of context, too much freedom is NOT a good thing.

What we all want is not a world where we're free to do as we like, but a world which is open ended. This is a big difference. An open ended world is a world where you're not locked into familiar paths, such as having to play a particular class, where you're not stopped from attacking people just because they don't feel like being attacked, but where at the same time you can't simply attack someone and expect to suffer no consequences. SCS does not stop darkfall from being open ended. It is not an artificial restriction which doesn't make sense or is there purely for balancing issues.

[Tshark]

somehow double posted... gg

[Vattic]

1. immersion breaker = knowing that you just waxt my paladin with your evil character and now you're standing before me with your good character ... and I can't do anything about it, being a paladin and all.

2. earlier in the thread you were okay with 2 characters ... now it's 3-4. imo, this 'fast is fun' mentallity, is what's wrong with mmo's today ... some want the fix now now! now!!! "where's the precious?"


i'm going to disagree with you on the first point. i think it's worse to have players running around attacking anyone with the same last name as someone who wronged them in the past. in your example it's not the player with 2 characters breaking your immersion, it's your own inability to seperate his characters into 2 distinct personalities. yes, the same player is behind the toons, but in game you should judge the toons based on their own actions. that's part of what roleplaying is about. if you can't get over it, then don't try to limit my freedom by claiming accountability please. if you want accountability, smash my evil character the next time that you see them, or walk up to my alt and question him about his family and just what they've been up to lately. i feel like that would be a lot more fun than just running up to my decent character and smashing him in the head for something i did with an alt.

as for the 3-4 characters thing that was just an example. i'd still play darkfall as long as i had a minimum of 2 characters total. in a perfect world a couple more would be great. with that said, obviously i don't expect the devs to give a shit about my personal desires for the # of characters. i'm just stating that for $15 a month, plus $50 for the game i wouldn't feel like it was worth it to play only 1/50th of the entire game.

the fast and fun bit comes in when i'm tired of hitting guys with an axe or sword and i feel like doing some exploring with a stealthy character. should i have to lose most or all of my melee over a long drawn out period, then retrain just because i'd like to sneak around for a couple of hours? i don't think that i'd have much fun if i had to spend a week or so just getting to the point where i could experiment with the game mechanics. this is where it becomes a matter of personal opinion. i'd like to test the game out and enjoy multiple aspects without sacrificing what i've already PAID money for. that's just my stance. your's, i'm sure, is quite the opposite.

[Martha]

OOC: SRS is the best choice I believe. It allows the restraint of a single character while allowing the freedom of making multiple characters.

On the topic of the same surnames: a selling point of online games is the degree of anonymity. Take away the ability to be completely hidden, and you risk the chance of damaging player politics.

[Osso]

As it was said before, this debate is pointless for me to render an opinion as i know very little of the skill system. Any opinion one gives on this topic is purely subjective at this point.

IMHO this topic is very important and thus warrants an objective debate that can only be truely achevied once all the facts and information is known.

[Sarmatian]

I hate to say it, but the game did not turn to shit because you could have multiple characters. It went to shit because of trammel, among other things. Multiple characters had nothing to do with it.

Yes I know. I didn't say it did. My point was when I look back at UO I don't even think about MCS making the game good. He makes it sound like UO was so great partly because I could have 5 chars. That had absolutlely nothing to do with its greatness imo.

[LanMandragon]

Good Sirs;

I would just like to address those who want multiple characters per server.

You have to remember this is a level playing field--all players would face the same constraints that scs imposes. If you think you are slightly hurting your warrior by giving him a few healing or crafting skills--well, we are all in the same boat. When you meet others in battle they are going to have slightly diluted warrior skills as well.

When you say more freedom in choices is more fun--this just isn't true. The constraints make the game (you can't just teleport to and from your favorite spawn, you can't just craft whatever you want with a mule--you have to deal with the guys who are real crafters). The scs is a constraint that makes the game more fun (just like limitations on teleportation). It forces you to react more with the other players when you can't just do anything on your own.

So scs is a limitation, but a very good one. If you think it over and give it a chance I think you will see how it is similar to other good limitations.

yours
SamDog

Well said kind sir.

Great thoughts.

[Osirus]

i'm going to disagree with you on the first point. i think it's worse to have players running around attacking anyone with the same last name as someone who wronged them in the past. in your example it's not the player with 2 characters breaking your immersion, it's your own inability to seperate his characters into 2 distinct personalities. yes, the same player is behind the toons, but in game you should judge the toons based on their own actions. that's part of what roleplaying is about. if you can't get over it, then don't try to limit my freedom by claiming accountability please. if you want accountability, smash my evil character the next time that you see them, or walk up to my alt and question him about his family and just what they've been up to lately. i feel like that would be a lot more fun than just running up to my decent character and smashing him in the head for something i did with an alt.

as for the 3-4 characters thing that was just an example. i'd still play darkfall as long as i had a minimum of 2 characters total. in a perfect world a couple more would be great. with that said, obviously i don't expect the devs to give a shit about my personal desires for the # of characters. i'm just stating that for $15 a month, plus $50 for the game i wouldn't feel like it was worth it to play only 1/50th of the entire game.

the fast and fun bit comes in when i'm tired of hitting guys with an axe or sword and i feel like doing some exploring with a stealthy character. should i have to lose most or all of my melee over a long drawn out period, then retrain just because i'd like to sneak around for a couple of hours? i don't think that i'd have much fun if i had to spend a week or so just getting to the point where i could experiment with the game mechanics. this is where it becomes a matter of personal opinion. i'd like to test the game out and enjoy multiple aspects without sacrificing what i've already PAID money for. that's just my stance. your's, i'm sure, is quite the opposite.

1. I know how to seperate character when viewing 2 seperate characters. if everyone's alts are running around with shared surnames ... are you suggesting we 'believe' that every player has multiple siblings some of them evil, but we never get to see them together? hard to draw a line of seperation there ... rattle off all the 'role playing' mumbo jumbo you want ... it's about having a blue mule to hide behind to escape the consequences of an evil deed, plain and simple. it's not my inability to do anything, it's a desired game mechanic you want in place.

2. now you're trying to say if you only had 1 character you would only experience 1/50th of the entire game? you're not going to get a friendly logical rebuttal here; that's the most shallow comment I've read in this thread. most worthy of a 'trolling' nomination.

3. so you wouldn't use melee weapons with a stealthy character? you make it seem like you'll lose the ability to use a skill because you went sneaking around for few hours; you certainly have an interesting perception of time progression.

[Malishan]

Yes I know. I didn't say it did. My point was when I look back at UO I don't even think about MCS making the game good. He makes it sound like UO was so great partly because I could have 5 chars. That had absolutlely nothing to do with its greatness imo.

I know, but the way you said it could be read to imply that. I also agree that MCS had nothing to do with it's greatness, but would it have lasted as long as it has without it? Mules and all? I don't think so.

[Battledragun]

So I take it you can't guild with players from other races? I also take it the guilds will not be competing against each other? If that's the case then I'm all for multiple toons per race.

But if you can have guilds with players from other races and they do compete with eachother (insert sarcasm) I'd be happy to see that as well, since I and many of my no job having friends have nothing better to do than create multiple toons, power level them and use them to spy on all our competition. Multiple toons per race on a given server is pointless. The vast majority of gamers either don't have time for multiple toons or are the type of person that can't decide what they want to do.

It's funny to hear all the people spouting off about how they won't play unless they can make multiple characters per server. I can see it now, "Hey Jarod, give me a couple days to catch up while I level randomcharacter005." If that's the case then they must have a ton of friends all doing the same. I mean give me a break. Go make another character on another server if you're so pressed about being able to sample everything.

There's gonna need to be a carebear server where people can go and play all kinds of different toons until they realize what they want to play. I mean serious, the game hasn't even come out and I already know what I'll be playing.

[Vattic]

1. I know how to seperate character when viewing 2 seperate characters, but with everyone's alt running around with shared surnames ... are you suggesting we 'believe' that every player has multiple siblings some of them evil, but we never get to see them together? hard to draw a line of seperation there ... rattle off all the 'role playing' mumbo jumbo you want ... it's about having a blue mule to hide behind to escape the consequences of an evil deed, plain and simple. it's not my inability to do anything, it's a desired game mechanic you want in place.

2. now you're trying to say if you only had 1 character you would only experience 1/50th of the entire game? you're not going to get a friendly logical rebuttal here; that's the most shallow comment I've read in this thread.

3. so you wouldn't use melee weapons with a stealthy character? you make it seem like you'll lose the ability to use a skill because you went sneaking around for few hours; you certainly have an interesting perception of time progression.


well i'm being generous. i'm assuming that with 500 skills i can only gm 10 of them at once. i feel like that number is probably high, but then again i have no idea until the game comes out. so 1/50th of the game (500 skills divided by 10 different ones that i can max out = 50) go ahead and call me shallow, i didn't really expect anything but flaming from you anyway. you seem incapable of repressing your emotions and engaging in a debate rather than a mud slinging contest.

as for hiding behind a blue mule, all i can say is that you are not i, and as such you have no idea what my reasons for wanting an alt is. yes, i do believe that some will do this. i for one am not one of those people, and i don't believe in attacking someone's toon just because another toon attacked me through valid roleplay. if you hate roleplaying, then this game might not be for you. the developers have stated multiple times that it is an integral part of the game.

as to the melee situation, i was just using to examples. if you would care to go back and reread what i was talking about before, you'll notice that i mentioned using an axe. i doubt that using a stealthy character will be conducive to weilding an axe. either way, you are only trying to invalidate my argument by focusing on superficial details, not the underlying point. feel free to misdirect all you want, but i'm also free to point it out when you do.

[Matteon]

In a pvp game that features full loot I will never support a situation where I cannot create a character to pvp with and a character to use for crafting and resource gathering unless I buy a second box. I have no die hard objection to one race per account but shared last names are a terrible idea because they amount to blatant hand holding in an area where players should take care of business themselves.

[LanMandragon]

In a pvp game that features full loot I will never support a situation where I cannot create a character to pvp with and a character to use for crafting and resource gathering unless I buy a second box. I have no die hard objection to one race per account but shared last names are a terrible idea because they amount to blatant hand holding in an area where players should take care of business themselves.

Why? Cause you dont want to get looted? I am not being a smartass, I want to know.

[Osirus]

well i'm being generous. i'm assuming that with 500 skills i can only gm 10 of them at once. i feel like that number is probably high, but then again i have no idea until the game comes out. so 1/50th of the game (500 skills divided by 10 different ones that i can max out = 50) go ahead and call me shallow, i didn't really expect anything but flaming from you anyway. you seem incapable of repressing your emotions and engaging in a debate rather than a mud slinging contest.

as for hiding behind a blue mule, all i can say is that you are not i, and as such you have no idea what my reasons for wanting an alt is. yes, i do believe that some will do this. i for one am not one of those people, and i don't believe in attacking someone's toon just because another toon attacked me through valid roleplay. if you hate roleplaying, then this game might not be for you. the developers have stated multiple times that it is an integral part of the game.

as to the melee situation, i was just using to examples. if you would care to go back and reread what i was talking about before, you'll notice that i mentioned using an axe. i doubt that using a stealthy character will be conducive to weilding an axe. either way, you are only trying to invalidate my argument by focusing on superficial details, not the underlying point. feel free to misdirect all you want, but i'm also free to point it out when you do.

well let me wipe away the mud ... most of it anyway ...

1. uneducated speculation.(as related to Darkfall)

2. if everyone's alts are running around with shared surnames ... are you suggesting we 'believe' that every player has multiple siblings, some of them evil, but we never see them together? hard to draw a line of seperation there ... and hardly immersive.

3. you make it seem as if you'll lose the ability to use a skill because you went sneaking around for few hours.

[Ohaan]

but what i can say for certain is that it will be uncomfortable for most when they see such a defining aspect of the MMO genre removed. its like chatting on IRC, except you cant open more then one channel.

Just like it will be uncomfortable when a defining aspect like treadmills and uber gear dependency are removed? C'mon man, think evolution. If you want a comfortable, nearly worn out familiar environment why don't you just pick up any of the over the hill MMO's out there?

I understand that some people really do want the feature, fine, but don't convolute your reasons with poppycock.

[keeperofstars]

The only thing the same last name piece will do is keep you marked as red to those people that you have pked.

Yeah they will take an alignment hit, but atleast they can get some revenge.

Always hated it when people would log on their red evil pks, and go hunt for a few hours then log on their super good alt to farm with in dungeons and then bitch when they were pked.

I really liked the idea the devs had a while back where your alignment was for the whole account but I doubt the carebears would care for that. As it restrains their freedoms to much.

I think people try to push the freedom bit too much by removing gameplay aspects.

Same sorta thing happens with SCS vs SRS.

Sure SRS gives you lots of added freedom, but it removes half the gameplay aspects of the server.

Example: You have your highly skilled combatant and a crafting alt. Your crafter is fully crafting, so you make all your gear dump it at your house, log on your combatant and load up the supplies and jump on your horse and ride to the bazaar, with little fear of loosing your crafters supplies, so why bother having a caravan for those weaker combatant crafters?

Hey I need to transport my guild across the ocean, no problem "hey jeff, log on your sailor and sail us to the island"

Instead of hey lets find a sailor, or hey who wants to be the guild sailor.

[Osirus]

The only thing the same last name piece will do is keep you marked as red to those people that you have pked.

Yeah they will take an alignment hit, but atleast they can get some revenge.

Always hated it when people would log on their red evil pks, and go hunt for a few hours then log on their super good alt to farm with in dungeons and then bitch when they were pked.

I really liked the idea the devs had a while back where your alignment was for the whole account but I doubt the carebears would care for that. As it restrains their freedoms to much.

I think people try to push the freedom bit too much by removing gameplay aspects.

Same sorta thing happens with SCS vs SRS.

Sure SRS gives you lots of added freedom, but it removes half the gameplay aspects of the server.

Example: You have your highly skilled combatant and a crafting alt. Your crafter is fully crafting, so you make all your gear dump it at your house, log on your combatant and load up the supplies and jump on your horse and ride to the bazaar, with little fear of loosing your crafters supplies, so why bother having a caravan for those weaker combatant crafters?

Hey I need to transport my guild across the ocean, no problem "hey jeff, log on your sailor and sail us to the island"

Instead of hey lets find a sailor, or hey who wants to be the guild sailor.

Keeper, I love you man.

you have awesome depth perception regarding this issue.

[keeperofstars]

oh wanted to add,

People are worried about being gimmped?

Why there is nothing that will prevent you from not becomming a master melee, a uber mage, a pro crafter, and an expert sailor.

Will just take a long time, but with SCS you get the oppertunity to become that. It will also make your toon actually worth something compared to everyone having the same 5 or 6 builds on their 5 alts.

[zlurp]

im all for SCS. in a game with open pvp and full loot there is a need for accountability to create consequences that actually matter.
but for gameplays sake we need facts on the skill system esp skill caps. if its possible to have only 6 skills full before progression becomes too slow for it to be worth skilling up more, its a little limited.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Hmm. I loved UO when I only had one character. Those early times were probably my favorite now that I think about it. I trained his ass off, hunted, and pvpd. Then I realized fuck this, I'm tired of relying on other people. Thus, I created a mule. It was great, being self-suffient was great. No longer did I give a shit about anyone. The game became so easy. Then the game turned to shit and I quit.

I'll leave the thread now.


What era did you play in UO?

[Shadow Walker2020]

oh wanted to add,

People are worried about being gimmped?

Why there is nothing that will prevent you from not becomming a master melee, a uber mage, a pro crafter, and an expert sailor.

Will just take a long time, but with SCS you get the oppertunity to become that. It will also make your toon actually worth something compared to everyone having the same 5 or 6 builds on their 5 alts.


How will the character be valuable when there will be 10-20 other players with the exact same skill set on one character as well?

What do you think? that just because its SCS that other players wont get the same idea as you and pick up the same skills?

[Shadow Walker2020]

Why? Cause you dont want to get looted? I am not being a smartass, I want to know.


Well..... hows having more than one character going to stop him from being killed and looted?

[Ohaan]

Thats a nature of business. And in the MMORPG Business, unessisary risks lead to down falls. SRS/MCS will work. Its been proven in the past. The devs are taking a big enough risk as it is with making a PvP centric game. They dont need to narrow down the margin of potential players even more by making the game SCS and alienating the vast majority of players who ahve played and prefer SRS/MCS.

Messing with SRS/MCS is like running down on a subway track and trying to pull out the third rail. Suicide.

Nice scare tactics Chicken Little. Risk also leads to greater rewards. UO itself was a huge risk - I guess Garriott and Origin really dropped the ball on that one.


And people who buy multiple accounts are going to have advantages over you in SCS only. Then youll bitch about that. Do you think the devs are going to stop people from buying more than one account just because they arent playing by your rules? HAHAHAAH! :lamo: Thats where business comes into play again. And what will be the most ironic part, the people who will buy mutiple accounts will be the ones who claim they wont. You SCSers think youve got it all figured out. Well, I can tell you this, you dont. Say im noob or flame me or whatever, but its the solid truth.

Multiple box players always have an advantage, even in MCS games because they can play multiple toons simultaneously. Next...



And where do you think most of those people who are playing WoW came from? they came from UO after the great AOS exodus.

So the majority (being at least half according to one of your definitions) of the 7 million WoW players came from the 250-500 thousand UO subscribers? Now you're just insulting peoples' intelligence.


And one of the great things about UO was its MCS. UO only had one race originally, thats why SRS would have to be implimented in DF.

I just don't follow this logic. I played pre-Trammel UO extensively and I never found MCS to be a plus. Just because you like MCS doesnt mean that it HAS to be implemented.

[Sel'Karim]

I never said i have superioru reasoning i only said that if you have the capability to rational thinking, something which a lot of people have (not enouph tho) you would come to the same conclusion as me.


This sort of attitude towards people who hold a different opinion to you is backwards and itself unreasonable. What gives you the right to say that just because someone doesn't agree with you then they must lack the capacity to think rationally? This would only be the case if SRS was clearly and obviously the better option. But if it was so obvious, why would the devs bother to ask us to debate on the issue?

Having said this, Gunther has brought up some powerful reasons for preferring SRS. I would like to address them. Although I have addressed the issue of people who want to play different archetypes in the past (page 13, or here (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=579881&postcount=189)) Gunther has raised further points that are worth addressing.

Firstly, it is not certain that there will be more than one server, and in truth it will be better if they can fit us all on one. They're certainly not going to make two servers just for the sake of allowing people to pursue two different characters. For this reason I am even more inclined to think that we should opt for the shelving idea as a fair compromise. (I discuss it on page 15 here (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=579937&postcount=220)).

However, I would like to tentatively argue that playing different archetypes is actually not that integral to an MMO. This will no doubt be controversial, but I honestly believe it.

Gunther has pointed out that playing a crafter for a year is going to be boring if they can't also make another character to join in the fighting fun that everyone else is having. Firstly, this is simply not true. A dedicated crafter can still learn fighting skills. What he can't do is remain competative with someone who has been a warrior for as long as he has been a crafter. But why does he need to be? That's a part of what it is to play a crafter character. If you have SRS or MCS no one will ever be forced to play a character that has some strengths and some weaknesses. Why should this be the case? And how can you identify with a character if every weakness they have can be ignored by developing another character which lacks that weakness?

My main point however is this. When you play a single player game, it is interesting to explore every facet of this game. In an MMORPG of sufficient depth however, this is simply impossible to explore every facet of the game, nor should it be the aim of playing an MMO. Ideally an MMO should not be limited by how much detail actually goes into the world, because it is the players who make the world. The devs give us the foundation. We are the ones who make the world. If you get to play every single race and every single type of character you may still have a very boring MMO experience (try playing every race and class on WoW). The quality of your MMO experience will depend upon how you interact with other people who play the game, not how many different archetypes you get to play. The best thing that the devs can do is to facilitate that player interaction and make it interesting. For reasons already given in my other posts, I believe that SCS offers ways of facilitating player interaction in a way that SRS can't, primarily by making players more dependant on one another.

[Relode]

How will the character be valuable when there will be 10-20 other players with the exact same skill set on one character as well?

What do you think? that just because its SCS that other players wont get the same idea as you and pick up the same skills?

Its more valuable by simple math. 10-20players is less than everybody having an alt that can do what you do.

[Osirus]

How will the character be valuable when there will be 10-20 other players with the exact same skill set on one character as well?

What do you think? that just because its SCS that other players wont get the same idea as you and pick up the same skills?


Well..... hows having more than one character going to stop him from being killed and looted?

amazing isn't it?

[Relode]

My main point however is this. When you play a single player game, it is interesting to explore every facet of this game. In an MMORPG of sufficient depth however, this is simply impossible to explore every facet of the game, nor should it be the aim of playing an MMO. Ideally an MMO should not be limited by how much detail actually goes into the world, because it is the players who make the world. The devs give us the foundation. We are the ones who make the world. If you get to play every single race and every single type of character you may still have a very boring MMO experience (try playing every race and class on WoW). The quality of your MMO experience will depend upon how you interact with other people who play the game, not how many different archetypes you get to play. The best thing that the devs can do is to facilitate that player interaction and make it interesting. For reasons already given in my other posts, I believe that SCS offers ways of facilitating player interaction in a way that SRS can't, primarily by making players more dependant on one another.

Very nice.

[Sbrafk]

If you want a comfortable, nearly worn out familiar environment why don't you just pick up any of the over the hill MMO's out there?

I did not play in comfortable worn out environments in past MMOs, and I don't plan to in the near future.


Just like it will be uncomfortable when a defining aspect like treadmills and uber gear dependency are removed? C'mon man, think evolution.

Think about it. not every MMO has a huge treadmill, and not every MMO has uber gear dependency. there is precedence, it has been put to the test and proven. ofc, im not arguing that the devs should not try to innovate, rather, id like their ideas to have marketing sense as well as being original.

a good example would be the automotive industry. when youre designing a car from scratch, you follow some aesthetic guidelines. if you want to make your car look like something from the jetsons, dont expect even your most fanatic consumers to buy it. some things arent meant to be changed because people wont be receptive to it.

sure, you could argue that you couldnt care less about the casual gamers, fine. not fine for the devs bankroll. business is all about pulling new customers in, and spitting dedicated customers out (ideally). if this doesnt happen, your consumer base stagnates. youll hold out for a couple years, but eventually youll end up like SB, with its sparsely populated servers and all that.


only time will tell, perhaps casuals will be receptive after the initial introduction phase of darkfall. some things take time to get used to, and some things just fail.


I reiterate: Im not about stifling creativity, but rather about seeing darkfall get maximum gains from its innovative (and precarious) stance in the gaming industry, and continue growing. aventurine is putting itself in a dangerous position by implementing such obviously risky game mechanics. but all the power to them, if they do indeed implement SCS. i wont run off crying simply because theres some mechanic in DFO I dont particularly desire. because like porthios said, I have faith in the devs and their product. I see it as a innovative step forward, something that pushes the bounds and breathes colour into such a bland and cookie-cutter industry. I appreciate such daring, and I'm willing to contribute to such a great endeavour.

[Malishan]

oh wanted to add,

People are worried about being gimmped?

Why there is nothing that will prevent you from not becomming a master melee, a uber mage, a pro crafter, and an expert sailor.

Will just take a long time, but with SCS you get the oppertunity to become that. It will also make your toon actually worth something compared to everyone having the same 5 or 6 builds on their 5 alts.

You're talkin out your ass now. There is a soft cap, and really we have no idea where it will set at, but there will be a point where it becomes pointless to try and learn new skills. I HIGHLY doubt that it will realistically allow anyone to MASTER all those very different skills and the support skills that make them viable. Certainly not to the point where nobody would ever feel the need to reroll to experience something new.

[Sel'Karim]

You're talkin out your ass now. There is a soft cap, and really we have no idea where it will set at, but there will be a point where it becomes pointless to try and learn new skills. I HIGHLY doubt that it will realistically allow anyone to MASTER all those very different skills and the support skills that make them viable. Certainly not to the point where nobody would ever feel the need to reroll to experience something new.

But if that's the case, then SRS will defeat the purpose of having a softcap in the first place.

[Sbrafk]

But if that's the case, then SRS will defeat the purpose of having a softcap in the first place.

how so? its not like a person can log on to all their alts at once.

[Sel'Karim]

how so? its not like a person can log on to all their alts at once.

Because you generally don't need to use your skills all at once either.

[Malishan]

My main point however is this. When you play a single player game, it is interesting to explore every facet of this game. In an MMORPG of sufficient depth however, this is simply impossible to explore every facet of the game, nor should it be the aim of playing an MMO. Ideally an MMO should not be limited by how much detail actually goes into the world, because it is the players who make the world. The devs give us the foundation. We are the ones who make the world. If you get to play every single race and every single type of character you may still have a very boring MMO experience (try playing every race and class on WoW). The quality of your MMO experience will depend upon how you interact with other people who play the game, not how many different archetypes you get to play. The best thing that the devs can do is to facilitate that player interaction and make it interesting. For reasons already given in my other posts, I believe that SCS offers ways of facilitating player interaction in a way that SRS can't, primarily by making players more dependant on one another.


Bullcrap. Who are you to say what someone's "Aim for playing an MMO" should be? Plenty of people "interact with other people" just fine while trying out almost everything at one point or another. You can't force players to be dependant on each other by limiting characters. If the gameplay and political flow of the game doesn't do it on it's own, it's not going to happen no matter what you do.

[Malishan]

But if that's the case, then SRS will defeat the purpose of having a softcap in the first place.

No, it won't. You'll have to switch characters, you won't have complete versatility on the fly. It's an inconvenience, it's not meant to be a completely stifling restriction, as is SCS. Did you ever play UO? It had a skill cap, and multiple characters. It worked out just fine, mules and all. I'd argue that it was the best game ever, untill it got f'd up.

[Sel'Karim]

Bullcrap. Who are you to say what someone's "Aim for playing an MMO" should be? Plenty of people "interact with other people" just fine while trying out almost everything at one point or another. You can't force players to be dependant on each other by limiting characters. If the gameplay and political flow of the game doesn't do it on it's own, it's not going to happen no matter what you do.

Let me phrase myself more carefully. I'm not saying that you can't make an MMO the point of which is to explore every facet of the game. Rather, the MMO genre offers a unique opportunity to go beyond that. The experiences of playing an MMO are not limited to predetermined dialogue and quests. But if you do want an MMO try WoW. The gameplay and political flow in a game like WoW is crap. That's why we're all waiting for darkfall. Open pvp, seige warfare, fight for resources, need for trading, all of these things will create interesting gameplay and political flow. How can you possibly say that these things are meant to happen on their own? If they did, WoW would be a wonderful game. My claim is that SCS furthers the same cause as open pvp, seige warfare, limited resources, etc.

[Sel'Karim]

No, it won't. You'll have to switch characters, you won't have complete versatility on the fly. It's an inconvenience, it's not meant to be a completely stifling restriction, as is SCS. Did you ever play UO? It had a skill cap, and multiple characters. It worked out just fine, mules and all. I'd argue that it was the best game ever, untill it got f'd up.

If you believe it's a huge inconvenience to shift from one character to another, then you obviously believe that SRS is a good thing not for the sake of flexibility, but for the sake of trying out different types of gameplay. If that's the case why arn't you happy with the shelving idea that I've been suggesting? Furthermore, as I already said, you don't generally need to use your skills all at once, so the inflexibility of having to switch characters is not such a big deal.

[Snitz]

OK...I've scanned this thread and read at least 200-300 posts. Ultimately, as stated several times by different people, NOONE here knows enough about Darkfall's playstyle to make any decision yet. It will have to be beta tested and then discussed yet again. Everyone is making assumptions based off what they've read or heard about Darkfall and also based on their personal gaming experience with other games which is of course totally different for every person. And of course everyone has the right to their own opinion.

That said...

I myself have played many types of games, UO, SB, EA, WoW, EVE, AO, GW, PS, other mmo's, many betas, and many single player games RPG and FPS alike.

Not everyone here has played a MMORPG with a tight knit player base where everyone knows or knows of a large portion of the population. A game called Endless Ages had this for its first few years after release and it was wonderful how people interacted. People ACTUALLY HAD reputations. I could count on my friends and knew who I couldn't trust because they had killed me before. EA had an open ended skill based system. They also allowed 3 toons per account. In the beginning when most people only needed to use one character, there was much more of this accountability and tight knit feeling going on. As more people started to realize they could use an alt for crafting, or for random pking with no consequence and everyone started to have alts just for that purpose...the game lost a lot of those tight knit feelings and became just another bunch of random toons... could be anyone at any time. It became like other games...and unfortunately I lost interest.

For Darkfall.........Pending the beta testing...so far I am an advocate of SCS. Many great reasons were given on how it builds player relationships. It strenghens the economy by putting a constant high value on players who fill those roles not everyone loves to play. And of course people are held so much more accountable for their actions. This is a multi-player game...where holding or conquoring cities is very important so having those strong relationships between players will be even more valuable.

Something else...

While many other great points were made for SCS...I just dont want to have to memorize all the extra names of players who want to have an alt. Friend or Foe. I have enough notes on scrap paper lying around, I don't need a new one titled "Darkfall list of who's who" A similar last name won't necessarily totally help this either... some people will end up having similar last names...or forgettable last names, either way...its just extra nonsense to remember.

To clarify...I Much more rely on all the other reasons to support SCS for now, but with one full name per character....you know who's who so much better than if they're allowed to have alts.



A final note
It seems there are still people in this thread who only cast a vote and don't back it up with any reasons.... Everyone can have an opinion...but give reasons...this isn't a poll...its a discussion.

[Osirus]

this all boils down to one common denominator:

it is difficult for many to consider surrendering to idealogies which differ from those presented in the pioneer games(UO) of the genre.

[keeperofstars]

While its 100% impossible to make that everything character, my point was there was nothing to stop you from doing it.

Also even if it is SRS in the end, I plan to play just one SCS style, cause 6 years down the road, when I am hurling fireballs, critting with my bow, stalking like a pro, and wielding my 2hander, you can scream nerf as I kill your ass.

Now back to my point.

You could be a warrior and a mage, might take longer but you could do it. Also the devs have said you can get to decent levels fast, so if its semi like UO.
Where you could flip a switch and in 5 hours of game play go from a semi ok warrior to a semi ok mage, there shouldnt be an issue with SCS.

People want to remove the immersion factor just to make the game easier on them. And use the excuse I want to try everything without having to gimp my main. AKA I want my cake and eat it too syndrom.

I still stand behind my SRS with 1 active character idea though. As it is a compromise between the two sides.

[Ariana Rose]

I am for SRS. Darkfall offered all that "Old UO" offered and more. If I am to be limited to One character per server, then I am not going to bother wasting my time playing. I will wait for the official word on this subject, perhaps from Tasos, who seems like a reasonable and straight forward person. Until its from his lips to our ears, I will continue to look forward to playing when it is released.

[Malishan]

One last thing. This whole "make people dependant on each other" arguement is all fine and dandy untill you remember that a high percentage of mmo players lately are assholes, or elitists, or both, and won't help anyone outside of their guild, if they even do that. Not everyone even wants to be part of a guild. And what about the small tight knit guilds of 5-10 people? Small guilds need to be flexible, not everyone will be online all the time, and they should be able to change things up and play the way they want to play.

[Sel'Karim]

I still stand behind my SRS with 1 active character idea though. As it is a compromise between the two sides.

Precisely. Can all the advocates of SRS please focus on this for a moment?

[AmyRose]

I agree with Relode!

[Ariana Rose]

In a pvp game that features full loot I will never support a situation where I cannot create a character to pvp with and a character to use for crafting and resource gathering unless I buy a second box. I have no die hard objection to one race per account but shared last names are a terrible idea because they amount to blatant hand holding in an area where players should take care of business themselves.


I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

[Malishan]

If you believe it's a huge inconvenience to shift from one character to another, then you obviously believe that SRS is a good thing not for the sake of flexibility, but for the sake of trying out different types of gameplay. If that's the case why arn't you happy with the shelving idea that I've been suggesting? Furthermore, as I already said, you don't generally need to use your skills all at once, so the inflexibility of having to switch characters is not such a big deal.

The shelving idea along with SRS would be very tolerable, as long as its not a huge time limit. Otherwise it'd really be a pain for families that share accounts. "Sorry, I just just done playing but you can't play untill tommorow. In fact I'm not going to let you play your character because then I won't be able to play untill the day after!" lol well you get the idea... Shelving should be for about 15 mins, 30 max.

As far as not needing to use all your skill at once, I disagree completely. If I'm on my dagger wielding scout and was suddenly able to whip out massively damaging AOE's, on top of every heal, and nuke in the book, and 10 instacast DOT's and 3 snares that all stack, and then run away with my maxed runspeed boost skill, that would be overpowered. Thats what a softcap prevents. A softcap is not meant to prevent you from ever trying other things in the game. SRS does not defeat the softcap. Clear enough?

[Sel'Karim]

One last thing. This whole "make people dependant on each other" arguement is all fine and dandy untill you remember that a high percentage of mmo players lately are assholes, or elitists, or both, and won't help anyone outside of their guild, if they even do that. Not everyone even wants to be part of a guild. And what about the small tight knit guilds of 5-10 people? Small guilds need to be flexible, not everyone will be online all the time, and they should be able to change things up and play the way they want to play.

Good points, but I don't necessarily thing what you say is a bad thing for a game. It's meant to be difficult. Furthermore, dependancy isn't so much about helping. Elitists and large guilds will probably exploit those who need their help. This is all part of dependancy. Often you come to rely on the people you exploit, and that's when those who are exploited actually have power (although they may not realise it). This is all part of a challenging, dynamic, player driven world.

[LanMandragon]

Well..... hows having more than one character going to stop him from being killed and looted?

I dunno, I want to know why.

[Keebler]

SRS- If Darkfall's servers are going to be as big as they are, and I get tired of my main melee character, I would have to switch to another server that (presumably) is further away from me. Further away = higher ping = bad.

[LanMandragon]

One last thing. This whole "make people dependant on each other" arguement is all fine and dandy untill you remember that a high percentage of mmo players lately are assholes, or elitists, or both, and won't help anyone outside of their guild, if they even do that. Not everyone even wants to be part of a guild. And what about the small tight knit guilds of 5-10 people? Small guilds need to be flexible, not everyone will be online all the time, and they should be able to change things up and play the way they want to play.

Then how can you explain the functionality of economies in games like SWG and EVE. The fact is people are dicks because they CAN BE with no repercussions.

If there are repercussions, like no one will craft for you, then wala the amount of dicks are cut down.

[Nevr]

I am for SRS. Darkfall offered all that "Old UO" offered and more. If I am to be limited to One character per server, then I am not going to bother wasting my time playing. I will wait for the official word on this subject, perhaps from Tasos, who seems like a reasonable and straight forward person. Until its from his lips to our ears, I will continue to look forward to playing when it is released.

Could you possibly make your threats more hollow? jeez

"Note to devs: Put farming back in or I won't play!!! Waaaaahhh WAAA :*("

[Sel'Karim]

The shelving idea along with SRS would be very tolerable, as long as its not a huge time limit. Otherwise it'd really be a pain for families that share accounts. "Sorry, I just just done playing but you can't play untill tommorow. In fact I'm not going to let you play your character because then I won't be able to play untill the day after!" lol well you get the idea... Shelving should be for about 15 mins, 30 max.

Honestly, I don't believe the family consideration should be allowed to carry enough weight to dictate which features are implemented. I agree that it is a disadvantage of SCS, and a long-term shelving SRS (I want at least a week), but I just don't see why the game must pander to such a minority. Now you may say that lot's of people have siblings who also like to play. However, don't forget that they won't be able to play at the same time. In other words, the only people for whom you would be accomodating are families with very casual gamers. I simply don't think this contingent of people should be the determinant of what features ought to be implemented.

[Snitz]

just a thought...maybe a lot of them are assholes and elitists because the game they play supports them more that way than as friendly and helpful.

i.e. they net more profit by powerlvling and being greedy since there is no need for them to help others or rely on eachother.

I guess we'll have to see which way Darkfall's mechanics make easiest.

[Sel'Karim]

As far as not needing to use all your skill at once, I disagree completely. If I'm on my dagger wielding scout and was suddenly able to whip out massively damaging AOE's, on top of every heal, and nuke in the book, and 10 instacast DOT's and 3 snares that all stack, and then run away with my maxed runspeed boost skill, that would be overpowered. Thats what a softcap prevents. A softcap is not meant to prevent you from ever trying other things in the game. SRS does not defeat the softcap. Clear enough?

But that's not the only thing the softcap prevents. It also prevents you from being both an excellent crafter and an excellent warrior. Or a land battle specialist as well as a sea battle specialist. You generally won't need both of those things at once, and so you will be stuck with a weakness. Under SCS you will only be able to overcome such weaknesses by depending on others players. Under SRS you will be able to overcome such weaknesses simply by relying on your alts.

[Malishan]

Then how can you explain the functionality of economies in games like SWG and EVE. The fact is people are dicks because they CAN BE with no repercussions.

If there are repercussions, like no one will craft for you, then wala the amount of dicks are cut down.

What if the dicks are the crafters? If you are the dick, then common last names will tell the crafters not to craft for you.

[Jaevin]

Why do they want it where you can't make another character or only use one race in the first place?

I'm really quite clueless here...

Is it because of spying?

[Sarmatian]

Originally Posted by Malishan
One last thing. This whole "make people dependant on each other" arguement is all fine and dandy untill you remember that a high percentage of mmo players lately are assholes, or elitists, or both, and won't help anyone outside of their guild, if they even do that. Not everyone even wants to be part of a guild. And what about the small tight knit guilds of 5-10 people? Small guilds need to be flexible, not everyone will be online all the time, and they should be able to change things up and play the way they want to play.

You know, you are right. Having SRS would make it easier for everyone, especially the smaller guilds and people who want to be self-suffient. SRS is indeed more flexible all around I guess. Weren't the devs boasting about how DF would appeal to all types of players? Because of this, I guess SCS doesn't really have a chance.

[LanMandragon]

But that's not the only thing the softcap prevents. It also prevents you from being both an excellent crafter and an excellent warrior. Or a land battle specialist as well as a sea battle specialist. You generally won't need both of those things at once, and so you will be stuck with a weakness. Under SCS you will only be able to overcome such weaknesses by depending on others players. Under SRS you will be able to overcome such weaknesses simply by relying on your alts.

yeah and having to rely on other players will make other players that much more valuable and build a community.

[Ocoma]

Christ, I check back a day latter and this thread is 30 pages longer. I'm not going to read through all of it. I've seen many good posts on reasons for both sides of the arguement, however I still stand by SCS.

Check back tomorrow and it'll be 60+ pages long.

[Malishan]

But that's not the only thing the softcap prevents. It also prevents you from being both an excellent crafter and an excellent warrior. Or a land battle specialist as well as a sea battle specialist. You generally won't need both of those things at once, and so you will be stuck with a weakness. Under SCS you will only be able to overcome such weaknesses by depending on others players. Under SRS you will be able to overcome such weaknesses simply by relying on your alts.

So what? Some people like flexibilty, and its not a bad thing. Especially for the smaller guilds and solo players I mentioned. We need them in the game too. SCS is idealistic and unrealisitic. Like I said, UO worked fine. SRS + common last names would be an improvement, and a big enough step for a game that is already stretching the envelope in many ways. No need to make it's niche even smaller, or take even the slightest chance that it will shorten it's longevity/replay value.

[keeperofstars]

I keep seeing this I dont want to have a weakness trend as a battle chant for the SRS group.

Guess what in real life we all have weaknesses, I cant spell for shit, I cant play the tuba, or hell any instrument, I cant fly a plane, or drive a nuclear sub.

I however have spell check, a collection of cds, purchase plane tickets all the time, and have been on a nuclear sub on a weekend pass with my friends.

My point is I dont know one damn person who works for the airline but I use its services all the time, they are more then happy to fly me where I want to go.
I cant make my own music so I buy it. I cant spell so I pay someone to guess how I will misspell words and make a program to fix it. I have no connection or bond with any of these people beyond an economic level.

if I wanted to I could have choose to be a pilot, or a musician, or a naval commander, but its not what I enjoy doing so i became a web / application developer. Which is what I am good at which is why people pay me to do my job, and in return I can afford to pay other people to assist me with things I cant do, and the world just keeps revolving, wierd huh.

I am somehow sure the same model that works for the universe as we know it will somehow work out nicely inside a game.

But for those wanting everything handed to them. I still think my idea works to fill the gap. Incase people just skipped over page 1 through 45, Ill repost it. Some of you have known this idea as the shelving idea, but really was my idea a long time ago near the start of the thread. People just ate chuncks off of it.



What about 1 race per server and one ACTIVE character at one time.

You can have multiple characters and can switch to any of them, but you cannot switch back to that character for 5 days. (Time negotiable)

So you make your uber sword melee asskicker, but then want to see what a few spells are like,

Well you create a new character MrSpellsalot and start playing him, after a bit you go yeah not so much my cup of tea. I think I will go back to my melee. You log off and log on your sword melee asskicker.

And MrSpellsAlot is now locked for 5 days meaning you cannot log on as him till the timer is up.

You go hmm damn I want to make a crafter as well, ok you do but same thing with mage.
I am sure you guys get the point now.

What this does though is allow people to have multiple characters to try out different things, but really prevents them from having 5 mule characters, or having fast access to a melee, a healer, a caster, type character all within 10 seconds.

So it allows for the multi character setup but without making it unbalanced or economoy breaking.

[HaVoCsTaR]

I agree with nefastus, Single Race with an account having the same alignment/last name for all characters, so someone can tinker around with alts but are accountable for their actions. It fixes both problems nicely.

[Sel'Karim]

So what? Some people like flexibilty, and its not a bad thing. Especially for the smaller guilds and solo players I mentioned. We need them in the game too. SCS is idealistic and unrealisitic. Like I said, UO worked fine. SRS + common last names would be an improvement, and a big enough step for a game that is already stretching the envelope in many ways. No need to make it's niche even smaller, or take even the slightest chance that it will shorten it's longevity/replay value.

Check out Snitz's entry (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=581056&postcount=626). It is evidence that SCS does work, and that it's not just idealistic. Yes we need small clans, yes we need solo players. But being a solo player does not mean you do not rely on others. You may be a lone adventurer, but you have a good friend in that famous dwarven crafting guild who will happily make you that 'platemail of awesome' (thank you Claus), if you bring him some supplies from your travels. You may be part of a small land-based clan that needs to lay seige on an enemy based on an island, so you ask your larger ally for ship transport in exchange for monetary renumiration. The possibilities are endless.

[Sel'Karim]

I agree with nefastas, Single Race with an account having the same alignment/last name for all characters, so someone can tinker around with alts but are accountable for their actions. It fixes both problems nicely.

Many supporters of SCS, including myself, do not want SCS for the sake of accountability. I agree with you that having the same alignment and same last name should be enough to create accountability. But consider all the other reasons that SCS supporters have been harping on about.

[Malishan]

I keep seeing this I dont want to have a weakness trend as a battle chant for the SRS group.

Guess what in real life we all have weaknesses, I cant spell for shit, I cant play the tuba, or hell any instrument, I cant fly a plane, or drive a nuclear sub.

I however have spell check, a collection of cds, purchase plane tickets all the time, and have been on a nuclear sub on a weekend pass with my friends.

My point is I dont know one damn person who works for the airline but I use its services all the time, they are more then happy to fly me where I want to go.
I cant make my own music so I buy it. I cant spell so I pay someone to guess how I will misspell words and make a program to fix it. I have no connection or bond with any of these people beyond an economic level.

if I wanted to I could have choose to be a pilot, or a musician, or a naval commander, but its not what I enjoy doing so i became a web / application developer. Which is what I am good at which is why people pay me to do my job, and in return I can afford to pay other people to assist me with things I cant do, and the world just keeps revolving, wierd huh.

I am somehow sure the same model that works for the universe as we know it will somehow work out nicely inside a game.

But for those wanting everything handed to them. I still think my idea works to fill the gap. Incase people just skipped over page 1 through 45, Ill repost it. Some of you have known this idea as the shelving idea, but really was my idea a long time ago near the start of the thread. People just ate chuncks off of it.



What about 1 race per server and one ACTIVE character at one time.

You can have multiple characters and can switch to any of them, but you cannot switch back to that character for 5 days. (Time negotiable)

So you make your uber sword melee asskicker, but then want to see what a few spells are like,

Well you create a new character MrSpellsalot and start playing him, after a bit you go yeah not so much my cup of tea. I think I will go back to my melee. You log off and log on your sword melee asskicker.

And MrSpellsAlot is now locked for 5 days meaning you cannot log on as him till the timer is up.

You go hmm damn I want to make a crafter as well, ok you do but same thing with mage.
I am sure you guys get the point now.

What this does though is allow people to have multiple characters to try out different things, but really prevents them from having 5 mule characters, or having fast access to a melee, a healer, a caster, type character all within 10 seconds.

So it allows for the multi character setup but without making it unbalanced or economoy breaking.

5 days is way too extreme. Try 15 mins or MAYBE half an hour, for the sake of families that share accounts at the least. An alt character isnt always available in 10 secs either, unless you're both at the log-off point. You'll still have to travel with the alt back to where-ever you were.

Sure people might have some city defenders logged off back at home, but big deal. It's can be hard enough to defend a city from random unexpected attacks even with alts ready to go, and there is already alot at stake in this game. Often times your alts are merely slaughtered one by one as they log into a camped city. Alts are really not that big of a deal! Half the fun of the strategies in SB was deciding what kind of group you want to build and take for whichever fight. You had your standard setups that you used 95% of the time, but every once in a while it was fun to try something new to catch people off guard.

[Chakka]

I would vote one race per server with multiple characters.

[Malishan]

Check out Snitz's entry (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=581056&postcount=626). It is evidence that SCS does work, and that it's not just idealistic. Yes we need small clans, yes we need solo players. But being a solo player does not mean you do not rely on others. You may be a lone adventurer, but you have a good friend in that famous dwarven crafting guild who will happily make you that 'platemail of awesome' (thank you Claus), if you bring him some supplies from your travels. You may be part of a small land-based clan that needs to lay seige on an enemy based on an island, so you ask your larger ally for ship transport in exchange for monetary renumiration. The possibilities are endless.

Snitz's entry is inconclusive. Who's to say whether the multiple character issue alone was the reason for him leaving or if it was the fact that it just wasn't a great game. Who's to say that the people that made the alts would not have quit before he did if they did not have the option?

It's still very possible that some people will be very frustrated and unable to find people to help them with what they need on a regular basis. Leave them unable to take up the slack on their own and they may quit. I'm not saying SCS can't ever work, I'm saying it works for fewer people, and for a shorter period.

[Sel'Karim]

5 days is way too extreme. Try 15 mins or MAYBE half an hour, for the sake of families that chare accounts ate least. An alt character isnt always available in 10 secs either, unless you're both at the log-off point. You'll still have to travel with the alt back to where-ever you were.

Sure people might have some city defenders logged off back at home, but big deal. It's can be hard enough to defend a city from random unexpected attacks even with alts ready to go, and there is already alot at stake in this game. Often times your alts are merely slaughtered one by one as they log into a camped city. Alts are really not that big of a deal! Half the fun of the strategies in SB was deciding what kind of group you want to build and take for whichever fight. You had your standard setups that you used 95% of the time, but every once in a while it was fun to try something new to catch people off guard.

But that's the whole point! Supporters of SCS don't want alt characters to be used for the sake of enhancing game play. We want people to have the option of experiencing variety, and that's why we've suggested the shelving idea. Perhaps I was too optimistic in thinking that the shelving idea would solve all of our disagreements.

[Sel'Karim]

It's still very possible that some people will be very frustrated and unable to find people to help them with what they need on a regular basis. Leave them unable to take up the slack on their own and they may quit. I'm not saying SCS can't ever work, I'm saying it works for fewer people, and for a shorter period.

That's the nature of an MMO. If you can't find friends you won't have much luck with multiple characters or without. Remember what the devs have always said. "There are no safe zones. You need your friends to watch your back." Why doesn't this extent to, "you need your friends, or at least people who exchange services for money, to provide you with what you need"?

[keeperofstars]

Most terms of agreement state sharing your account is a violation of policy, so your family sharing same account is usually illegal, but why split hairs???

As seen the time is negotiable, i'd be happy with like even a 4 hour period or such.

I think anything below an hour starts to kill the whole character freeze aspect.

And you pointed out the flaw of SRS, with the SB example.

My guild would bring a spec group of unique casters, the seige would start they would send out their spec and it would not work against us so they would all log on an alt and bring in another spec to attempt. And so on till they came up with a spec to beat us.

Also they could hound us with one group of alts for a bit then log on another group if we got past the walls.

Most of the sieges I went to started with the defenders all as archers on the walls, once the outer wall went down, they log on casters, once 2nd outter wall down out came the melees.

I couldnt jump between alts to fit my need as an attacker cause I had distance to travel, but they could do it all they wanted. Atleast with a 3 or so hour freeze it cuts down on the alt swaping, yet still allows those people truely just wanting an alt to experiment with or to always be uber with to have that option 80% of the time. But still forces them to think / use strategy about their alts.

[Malishan]

But that's the whole point! Supporters of SCS don't want alt characters to be used for the sake of enhancing game play. We want people to have the option of experiencing variety, and that's why we've suggested the shelving idea. Perhaps I was too optimistic in thinking that the shelving idea would solve all of our disagreements.

I already said I'd be ok with the shelving thing, as long as it was a 15-30 min time limit, not DAYS as suggested by Keeperofstars.

[Sakumi]

What about neither? Limiting this isn't exactly going to do much other than possibly drive people to have to purchase another copy if they want to play on the same server etc.

*shakes head*

Maybe this is ok for some players, but if they ever want to tap a larger player base, this certianly isn't the way to do it. With servers that can hold up to 100k players, they won't ever see 100th of that. Maybe I'm not the *type* of player they're trying to get, but the fact is to be succesful you have to attempt to reach as many people as possible. MMOs need to capture a large market to stay alive. A small player base leads to the remaining players leaving, and then well.. *points to Dark and Light*

This being said, if they had a "main" server per region with these locks, and then a "relaxed" server with the standard mmorpg "x ammount of chars per server, no race locks" then it'd be ok. I'd just play the relaxed server.

Either of these drive me away from wanting to play, however.

[Malishan]

Most terms of agreement state sharing your account is a violation of policy, so your family sharing same account is usually illegal, but why split hairs???

As seen the time is negotiable, i'd be happy with like even a 4 hour period or such.

I think anything below an hour starts to kill the whole character freeze aspect.

And you pointed out the flaw of SRS, with the SB example.

My guild would bring a spec group of unique casters, the seige would start they would send out their spec and it would not work against us so they would all log on an alt and bring in another spec to attempt. And so on till they came up with a spec to beat us.

Also they could hound us with one group of alts for a bit then log on another group if we got past the walls.

Most of the sieges I went to started with the defenders all as archers on the walls, once the outer wall went down, they log on casters, once 2nd outter wall down out came the melees.

I couldnt jump between alts to fit my need as an attacker cause I had distance to travel, but they could do it all they wanted. Atleast with a 3 or so hour freeze it cuts down on the alt swaping, yet still allows those people truely just wanting an alt to experiment with or to always be uber with to have that option 80% of the time. But still forces them to think / use strategy about their alts.


I dunno, 30 mins seems like a big enough hampering to me in the heat of battle, especially if you're trying to get everyone in your guild to do it at once and leaving your city weakened during that period of time.

Besides that, I don't really have a problem with the spec group swapping. Defenders should have a bit of an advantage. I'd be fine with reasonable shelving tho.

Thats all for tonight, time to crash :)

[Sel'Karim]

I already said I'd be ok with the shelving thing, as long as it was a 15-30 min time limit, not DAYS as suggested by Keeperofstars.

Sorry, I somewhat misunderstood the passage I quoted from you. However, I support minimum five day breaks between alts. I'd prefer two weeks. One of the main reasons I've always wanted SCS is so that people can't have crafter alts and pvp character mains. A shelf restricted to only 15 minutes, or only an hour, or only even a day, is not enough to avoid that problem. Furthermore, I don't want people hoarding items on their mules which no one can loot. Two weeks won't entirely stop that, but it will make it very tedious since all those resources that you're hoarding won't be available to you on demand, and more over, if you switch to your hoarding mule, you can't immediately switch back to your main character.

Anyway, it's been a good debate. I will certainly play this game no matter what the devs decide, and even though I think SCS is a very important and interesting feature, I trust their judgement no matter what decision they make. Time for me to split also :)

[keeperofstars]

also dont forget with my shelving idea, if you havent played any of your other alts, within the time limit they are instantly avaliable to you.

So you been playing your main Pker, and then its defend the keep time, you recall home and start defending and realize your mage would be so much better. You hit log off and log on your mage, after a while you go hmm maybe my archer is better, you log of and instantly log on your archer, 30 mins later you go shit maybe my mage would be good to have, hmm cant use him though oh well. Guess I will just have to play the archer for rest of night.

Also could still have your crafting chain, but would only have it once per time cycle. So you gather resources, with one alt, dump them off at the house, log on your crafter and make the gear and then log on your main and pick it up. All is good except you cant do that again for the next 4 days, so if you get rolled, a few times you might have to look for another player to help you with gear.

Because of that instant freedom post the shelf timer, is why I posted a longer shelf time then 30 mins. 1 hour flys by, hell been making non-stop post in this thread for about 5 hours today, with 1 hour time out that would be 5 times I could jumped between all my alts, really kills the point.

[Malishan]

Sorry, I somewhat misunderstood the passage I quoted from you. However, I support minimum five day breaks between alts. I'd prefer two weeks. One of the main reasons I've always wanted SCS is so that people can't have crafter alts and pvp character mains. A shelf restricted to only 15 minutes, or only an hour, or only even a day, is not enough to avoid that problem. Furthermore, I don't want people hoarding items on their mules which no one can loot. Two weeks won't entirely stop that, but it will make it very tedious since all those resources that you're hoarding won't be available to you on demand, and more over, if you switch to your hoarding mule, you can't immediately switch back to your main character.

Anyway, it's been a good debate. I will certainly play this game no matter what the devs decide, and even though I think SCS is a very important and interesting feature, I trust their judgement no matter what decision they make. Time for me to split also :)

12 hours is my final offer, take it or leave it, I'm feeling generous :) In a game where you may be losing gear several times daily, thats more than enough to frustrate most people with crafter mules into buying from a dedicated crafter.

[Yarias]

EDIT: Nevermind, according to your post (keeperofstars) swapping chains between alts will be possible under your proposed shelving system.

I would think that a system as below would be a better modification to that shelving system as it would prevent the instant chain swapping.

You have a main A.
an alt B.

1) You log onto A. You crash and can still log onto A.
2) You log off A. Now you can't log onto anybody but A for at least 1 hour. (30 minutes would probably do, 15 is streching it a bit thin, IMO)

3) You wait an hour and log onto B. You crash and can log onto B or A.
4) You log back onto B. You log off B. Now you can't log onto anything but B for at least 1 hour.

5) You log onto A. Now B is shelved and you can't log onto him for 1-2weeks (time debateable)

[Sel'Karim]

Half the fun of the strategies in SB was deciding what kind of group you want to build and take for whichever fight. You had your standard setups that you used 95% of the time, but every once in a while it was fun to try something new to catch people off guard.

Sorry, one last thing. I didn't misunderstand your quote after all. This was what I was taking issue with. I don't want this possibility. This is a case in which SRS affects game play and not just variety of experience. Yes, you say it was fun to try something new, but the 'catching people off guard' thing I do not like. Not because there is something wrong with catching people off guard, but I because I don't want this to come as a result of being able to make alts. Alts should not figure into one's game strategy at all. That's what I've been arguing for all this time. Having only a one hour alt turn-around will not prevent this. That's why I support a minimum of five days.


12 hours is my final offer, take it or leave it, I'm feeling generous :) In a game where you may be losing gear several times daily, thats more than enough to frustrate most people with crafter mules into buying from a dedicated crafter.

Well if we were bargaining I might consider it. But since this is not my decision to make, I'll stick to minimum five days and let the devs decide on the ultimate answer.

Anyway, now I really am going :)

[Sel'Karim]

So, let me get this straight, the shelving idea floating around is that ... hmm... best to give a hypothetical situation, and here it is.

You create your main, character A.
You create alt B.
You create alt C.

OK, now, lets say that you haven't been on any of your alts for however long the shelf timer is.

Obviously, you could log onto char A.
So, you decide to log off A and onto B.
If you crash, and log back on B, this is possible.
Then you log off B and log on C. Is this possible? or can you only log onto your active character and the alt you just played?

Assuming you can log onto C from B in the previous point, now you can't log onto B until the shelf period?
And then you could log onto either C or A, and when you do log onto A you couldn't log onto C until the shelf period?

And regardless of what you do, you can always log onto your main A?

Please clarify for me =)

EDIT: Nevermind, according to your post (keeperofstars) a few higher all this should be true.

EDIT: my opinion of a better solution coming.

Thanks,

Okay. Really one last thing this time. Promise :)

There is no such thing as a 'main' on the shelving idea. If you log onto B, then you cannot log back onto A for a set period of time. Then when you log back onto A, you cannot log onto B for that same set period of time. If you have a C as well, you won't be able to log onto A or B for that period of time. The idea is to eliminate the use of alts for the purpose of game strategy, but it still allows you to develop different types of characters, though you won't be able to play them both at once.

[Yarias]

keeperofstars seems to have a slightly different thought than you


What about 1 race per server and one ACTIVE character at one time.

You can have multiple characters and can switch to any of them, but you cannot switch back to that character for 5 days. (Time negotiable)

So you make your uber sword melee asskicker, but then want to see what a few spells are like,

Well you create a new character MrSpellsalot and start playing him, after a bit you go yeah not so much my cup of tea. I think I will go back to my melee. You log off and log on your sword melee asskicker.

And MrSpellsAlot is now locked for 5 days meaning you cannot log on as him till the timer is up.

You go hmm damn I want to make a crafter as well, ok you do but same thing with mage.
I am sure you guys get the point now.

This implies that you can always log onto "sword melee asskicker" no matter what.

I agree that you should aways be able to log onto your "active" character or main character, but I propose that you should always have to wait between 30 minutes to 1 hour to switch between any two characters (in addition to the 5+ day shelving of alts only)

[Airius Droc]

Exactly, and no matter what anyone thinks, the devs do have to look at it at least partially from a business stand point.

(This was in regards to having a single race, same last name system. For those that haven't read every post.)

Just to add, it's also true that from a business stand point it would be more cost effective to have one character per account. Less space, less to maintain, easier to track retention type data, and to market. Just want to point that out as well.

[Sakumi]

You know you people having a in-depth drawn out conversation in this post just makes it almost impossible for the darkfall people to read through it and get what's important: everyone's opinion, not just yours.

[Yarias]

You know you people having a in-depth drawn out conversation in this post just makes it almost impossible for the darkfall people to read through it and get what's important: everyone's opinion, not just yours.

That's what the polls are for.

[keeperofstars]

they wanted details, they asked for details, and not just I want this, or that. They wanted to know why.

thusly why we are all doing long posts on what we think/ how it should work.

my idea was that if you had A,B,C characters that anytime you changed from one character to another the previous character would have a shelf life before they could be played again.

So your on playing Character A, log off and pick character B at that instant Character A has 1 hour before they are open for play again. You play B for 30 mins and go hmm let me log on C now. Now A has 30 mins and B has an hour before you can change to either of them. You play C for 1 hour and now you can change to A, or B no problems at all, but C will be locked out for 1 hour.

So you could have instant access to all your characters, but only once per shelf time frame.

Like I said the shelf time frame is negotiable and a good thing to test in beta, once we know how things function more. But I think its a solution that with some tweaking could work for both sides.

[Airius Droc]

in your first example where your paladin wants to crush my evil character but can't because i logged him off, what do you want me to say? you shouldn't be able to beat up my second character just because i was roleplaying my first. you should wait to see the one that actually wronged you in game and take him out if you can. anything else is breaking the "immersion" and it's also destroying accountability at the same time since the character that did the dead isn't the one being punished.

You weren't responding to me, but I wanted to take a moment to respond to this type of logic anyway, as I think it sums up exactly what's wrong with online games.

Online games should be more competitive. When you play a competitive game, you're playing against THE PLAYER, not the character (or at least you should be).

Although I realize that many people will play Darkfall on a far more casual level, I sincerely disagree with anyone that thinks this gives them an inherent right to less accountability.

[Airius Droc]

Not like anyone will read this but...

The devs will read it. What else are they going to do, finish the game? :)

[Yarias]

Ok, I understand your idea keeperofstars.

I still like mine a bit better though. With a mandated 30 minute time interval before you can change characters, a designated main character than never gets shelved, and a number of alts that have your shelving idea applied to them (with a long time frame, like 5+ days).

Under this system, if your main was a melee and you tried a mage for and hour and thought it sucked, you could log back onto your main after the 30 minute wait period, and then your mage would be locked for 5 days)

This prevents people from having every kind of alt available all at once, but also allows people to try different characters without having to sacrifice being unable to log into their main for 5 days. They only have to wait the 30 minutes.

The 30 minute time limit prevents city defenders/attackers from chain logging through all their alts.

[Blackie_Chan]

i don't care about being limited to CSC if the following is handled.

1. relearning skills. If I am able to experiment with different trees I discover throughout my playtime and then decide they sucked compared to my original build then I am ok with the that implementation.

The bad realism here about CSC is that you do not want to try new skill sets at softcap, so the quick way to try new things is to unlearn something and then learn something new. If I can'trelearn something I used to know quicker then to me its a bad way to go.

2. crafting support skills are more balanced. Example: most people coming to DFO are PvPers...however we will have to be crafters also. Old DFO texts suggest if you are a master blacksmith (with all the other crap to go with it like mining) then you may be SOL in PvP.

Realistically this isn't a bad thing if you can have multiple toons, but 1 toon makes it harder to have some of these skills and fight. I am not saying they should count for nothing, but if you take a complimentary crafting skill like lumberjacking to fletchery then it shouldnt' count as much as lumberjacking with blacksmithing.

Just seems there will be limited fulltime crafters and this will allow people to craft a lil and still pvp like they want to.

I think CSC has really the only drawbacks that SRS has but with alot more serverwide benefits. I only hope that these two aspects are handled well and then if there is a limiting factor tht CSC would be the choice.

[Sel'Karim]

keeperofstars seems to have a slightly different thought than you


What about 1 race per server and one ACTIVE character at one time.

You can have multiple characters and can switch to any of them, but you cannot switch back to that character for 5 days. (Time negotiable). So you make your uber sword melee asskicker, but then want to see what a few spells are like. Well you create a new character MrSpellsalot and start playing him, after a bit you go yeah not so much my cup of tea. I think I will go back to my melee. You log off and log on your sword melee asskicker. And MrSpellsAlot is now locked for 5 days meaning you cannot log on as him till the timer is up. You go hmm damn I want to make a crafter as well, ok you do but same thing with mage. I am sure you guys get the point now.

This implies that you can always log onto "sword melee asskicker" no matter what.

I agree that you should aways be able to log onto your "active" character or main character, but I propose that you should always have to wait between 30 minutes to 1 hour to switch between any two characters (in addition to the 5+ day shelving of alts only)

I obviously can't stay away. I'm addicted. I admit it.

Okay. Yes, that quote does imply that you can always log back onto your main. I'm pretty sure that keeperofstars and I have a very similar view on why we want SCS, but it seems we differ on what would be an adequate compromise.

My own views on the shelving idea can be found here (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=579937&postcount=220). Basically what I want is for people to have the opportunity to develop different types of characters (melee, spell caster, crafter etc), but I don't want these alts to affect game-play and strategy at all. I've already given my reasons for this so I won't reiterate. Now from my post just above it seems that we might end up with the following problem. You're playing a melee character and decide you'd rather be a spell caster for a while. After you play him for a while you think to yourself "that sucks! I want to cleave heads off!" On my system you can't go back to your melee alt for a given period. The solution to this which I've mentioned in entry 220 of this thread is that you CAN go back to your melee character but only if you're willing to DELETE your spellcaster. Now if you really thought that the spellcaster sucked, then you shouldn't have any issue with this. But if you're merely bored, then yes you're stuck with it. The system is not meant to be flexible. Flexibility has an effect on game-play. If we all accept that alts are there to provide variety, but NOT have an effect on game-play and strategy, then I believe that the system I'm proposing will accomplish that.

Edit: After reading keeperofstars entry which he had posted while I was in the middle of this, I realised we're closer in opinion on the compromise. However, it seems we still disagree on the time length. He seems more open minded, while I'm opposed to anything less than 5 days, and vehemently opposed to anything less than a day. It all depends on what we're trying to achieve. I think that even a day shelf restriction will affect gameplay, and I'd like to see alts have no affect on game-play at all.

[Shokras]

I really don't understand the SRS side at all, or even the whole shelving idea. I think it should be SCS because of the many reasons stated already especially the alt crafter one. What ever happened to making another character on a different server? Or is there only one server?
If there are multiple servers then why must people have an alt on the same server? It serves no purpose in my eyes except to lower the gaming experience with alts and mules. Especially if its only the same race lol, if i was gonna make an alt it would be a different race for sure.

[Airius Droc]

With a mandated 30 minute time interval before you can change characters, a designated main character than never gets shelved, and a number of alts that have your shelving idea applied to them (with a long time frame, like 5+ days).

There's a problem with that idea on the business side (but I still like it some).

The problem is that the devs shouldn't do anything that makes players stop playing. There will be enough going on in the game that will make them do that from time to time, they don't need to build things like that into the game.

Don't get me wrong, I like the spirit of the idea, especially the long window (5+ days) as it stops a lot of the crazy stupid bullshit that alts allow people to perform. Also, having played Planetside, where there was a window of time between which you couldn't switch races, I know all too well the effect this can have on your game playing. For example, when I played PS I switched races from time to time, deleting all my characters and starting over. Then sometimes I'd want to switch back to those other characters and I'd have to wait for hours (I think it was a day). Well suppose I'm set on being a particular race, but now I have to wait? Players don't deal with waiting well AT ALL. Just read a few of the teleportation posts for background!

The point is, if a player is waiting, then they're given an opportunity to just say "screw this game" and quit. For that reason, I'd say that it's a poor idea for what the business would wish to support.

[orbit]

One race multiple characters:sly:

[Airius Droc]

What ever happened to making another character on a different server? Or is there only one server?
If there are multiple servers then why must people have an alt on the same server? It serves no purpose in my eyes except to lower the gaming experience with alts and mules. Especially if its only the same race lol, if i was gonna make an alt it would be a different race for sure.

I play a lot of Madden football, because it's basically the only football game in the world that you can play online. In this game, people create new profiles all the time because they just can't stand losing and having a crappy record show up where people can see it.

That's the mentality we're dealing with here. People use alts because they just can't take losing. If someone kills them, they go get an alt custom made to sucker punch the other player because that's the easiest way to get revenge. If someone doesn't want to lose any of their net worth from character to character, they get a mule. If someone wants to play "casually" then they get an alt that's not tied to a clan or rankings, or whatever else they consider of value. The alts give them a way out of being effected by loss.

It's really very disgusting, and I long for the day when you can look at another player's profile online and know that any wins or loses they may have, any relationships or actions they may choose, any interaction with that player will be of real lasting value instead of the anonymous bullshit we have in every other game.

[Razel]

I don't think the majority here are grasping the entire gravity of this debate.
This fundamental question is asked at a point in a ballgame which it makes no sense because we simply do not know the mechanics (or rest of the factors of the equation) and its pointless to assume otherwise in a game that has been coded and developed for 5 years now... At best we're rats in a maze on this thread and its the equivalent of watching a debate called 'Which came first the chicken or the egg?' starring George Bush and Bill Clinten with an endless amount of bananas to beat on each other with followed by a Bob Hope one-liner Christmas Special with the participants herein being the rats.

[Airius Droc]

The alts give them a way out of being effected by loss.

I think this is a very important line, and I wanted to highlight it for the following reason.

When you design a game,(I'm assuming) you build in rewards and losses. Surely you want to limit losses so that they're acceptable, expected, and within the scope of the playing experience. But you still build these in expecting players to act and react to losses per the game design. So I submit to you (developers) that if you allow players to play multiple character games, you'll always have an unbalanced design because players that don't play those games will be at a huge disadvantage. Many players, such as myself, will leave your game (as many players have in other online games) because they simply can't compete in an environment that's not equal in design.

Of course, I'm assuming that you didn't design Darkfall to be a mule fest, "I'm going to get my other character and teach you a lesson" game. If you did, then by all means please allow unrestricted characters per server.

[Sel'Karim]

Ok, I understand your idea keeperofstars.

I still like mine a bit better though. With a mandated 30 minute time interval before you can change characters, a designated main character than never gets shelved, and a number of alts that have your shelving idea applied to them (with a long time frame, like 5+ days).

Under this system, if your main was a melee and you tried a mage for and hour and thought it sucked, you could log back onto your main after the 30 minute wait period, and then your mage would be locked for 5 days)

This prevents people from having every kind of alt available all at once, but also allows people to try different characters without having to sacrifice being unable to log into their main for 5 days. They only have to wait the 30 minutes.

The 30 minute time limit prevents city defenders/attackers from chain logging through all their alts.

I like the solution to the chain logging idea, except I think it will annoy a lot of people. If I'm not interested in defending a city, but I don't want to waste 30 minutes, what am I to do? Perhaps a better idea is that you can't log onto your alt if you've died in the past 15 minutes.

I'm not sure I understand the point of having a main you can always log into. That's like keeping the worst aspect of SRS. If you have a crafter alt, you log onto him, make yourself a nice broadsword, drop it off in your house, and log back onto your main. Supporters of SCS proposed the shelving idea precisely to avoid these sorts of cases.

[Airius Droc]

I don't think the majority here are grasping the entire gravity of this debate.
This fundamental question is asked at a point in a ballgame which it makes no sense because we simply do not know the mechanics (or rest of the factors of the equation) and its pointless to assume otherwise in a game that has been coded and developed for 5 years now...

Not if they're second guessing, or reaffirming their business model (target market). Then it makes perfect sense.

[Xile Firebane]

I would love to see SCS, but I'm afraid it would alienate too many people from the game. However if there was one server that was SCS and the others SRS we could have the best of both worlds. I would definitely play on the SCS if it were available.

[Airius Droc]

I'm not sure I understand the point of having a main you can always log into. That's like keeping the worst aspect of SRS. If you have a crafter alt, you log onto him, make yourself a nice broadsword, drop it off in your house, and log back onto your main. Supporters of SCS proposed the shelving idea precisely to avoid these sorts of cases.

I agree, having a main you can "always log into" is exactly like having a multiple character server. That's no solution to anything, unless you're a mule abuser.

[Airius Droc]

I would love to see SCS, but I'm afraid it would alienate too many people from the game.

I consider this to be a wise arguement for reasons I've already stated above.

Of course, you can say this about any feature in Darkfall. It's a niche market within a niche market, more or less so depending on how fun the game is once launched. If the game turns out to be a dud, then people will point at whatever feature they dislike the most as to the reason why they stopped playing.

IMPORTANT POINT: If you make the game Multiple Character at launch, that's the way it will always be. You'll never be able to take it away later. However, if you make it SCS, you can always open up the limitations at a later date without losing customers. (It's easier to give than it is to take away!)

[Sel'Karim]

I think this is a very important line, and I wanted to highlight it for the following reason.

When you design a game,(I'm assuming) you build in rewards and losses. Surely you want to limit losses so that they're acceptable, expected, and within the scope of the playing experience. But you still build these in expecting players to act and react to losses per the game design. So I submit to you (developers) that if you allow players to play multiple character games, you'll always have an unbalanced design because players that don't play those games will be at a huge disadvantage. Many players, such as myself, will leave your game (as many players have in other online games) because they simply can't compete in an environment that's not equal in design.

Of course, I'm assuming that you didn't design Darkfall to be a mule fest, "I'm going to get my other character and teach you a lesson" game. If you did, then by all means please allow unrestricted characters per server.

Well the thing is, if SRS is implemented, I will do what the other guy does. I'll have the mules, and the alts, and all that. I won't like doing it, but I'll be forced to in order to keep up with the competition. I won't leave darkfall if they implement SRS. There are enough other good features to keep me interested. However, I do think it detracts from the philosophy which the devs have always been pushing (at least as I saw it). The point of this post is just to say that I don't think it will 'unbalance' the game, because I think everyone will end up doing it. It won't be a good thing, of course, but why would anyone stick to the principle of not using mules and alts if that is necessary in order to remain competative?

[Airius Droc]

The point of this post is just to say that I don't think it will 'unbalance' the game, because I think everyone will end up doing it. It won't be a good thing, of course, but why would anyone stick to the principle of not using mules and alts if that is necessary in order to remain competative?

I never do it. I just quit the game.

But I'm almost certainly a minority. I'm not even close to the mainstream gamer, and it shouldn't matter to anyone if I personally leave the game. Still, there must be other people like me who get fed up with all the mules and other alt nonsense, enough so that they quit. It's proably very hard to track this, which I'm sure is why the devs are trying to "get a feel" for how people would react to a SCS.

Having closely followed this issue for many years, my own personal opinion is that the majority of the people wouldn't miss multiple characters one bit, however if they were there, they'd use them to their full potential. I doubt I'm alone in this opinion.

[keeperofstars]

I thought about just having two servers, but I have a feeling the SRS wouldnt have enough following, if the SCS went well.

Mainly cause the SRS server would in the end be a bunch of zergs focused in just being pure killing machines which while is fun for a bit and will fill a big niche, overall people will get tired of being full self sufficent. UO was much more fun when it took years to GM skills, as people focused on one character only. When they made skills sky rocket in gains, a bunch of people moved to the hard shard forgot the name but the one where you could only have one character. Mainly b/c we were tired of dealing with so many alts each and every day. In the end though I ended up with having to have multiple characters to stand a chance. I needed my mage for dungeon farming. My macer for pvp, my tamer for the cash hoarding, my gm smith for my gear, and a carto bard so I could decode my own maps I got farming with my mage. I got a house and could do anything in the game all by myself didnt need a single person to help with anything. That was when I started to get super bored with the game. I had done it all, I was the best macer, best mage, best crafter, best tamer, and best bard, I could be. I was 7xgm with them all, and bored out of my mind. No one wanted to pvp anymore cause they all busy working up non-pvp alts to support their pvp mains. When I tried to pvp world would quickly get out and people log on their pvp alts to gank me via a group, then would log off to a different alt.
OR they would just log off and log on their crafter in town for a few hours, while their main was safe and sound in the dungeon where I had started to pvp / pk at.

Point is alts leave way to much saftey against loss, as stated above. Unless there is an insane log off time frame, which still doesnt work well, cause then people bitch about being able to log off.

[Sel'Karim]

Having closely followed this issue for many years, my own personal opinion is that the majority of the people wouldn't miss multiple characters one bit, however if they were there, they'd use them to their full potential. I doubt I'm alone in this opinion.

I don't know. It's hard to say. Some of the SRS supporters seem very devoted to the idea, and claim that people will leave if it's not implemented. Both contingents of players can throw around these sorts of threats. Probably, they're both serious. Personally, if it were up to me, I wouldn't pay attention to the threats of either side, nor count any potential losses in the player base. This isn't meant to demean what you said. There is nothing wrong with leaving a game that doesn't live up to your standards. However, the devs should just consider both sides of the argument that have been presented here, weigh up the pros and cons, and completely ignore any potential loss in the player base.

Edit: Some people might claim that they have to take loss of numbers into account. To some extent I agree. I agree that if SCS is so terrible that people get incredibly bored with one character and it leads to, say, 15% of people leaving just for that reason, then they probably shouldn't implement it. (Assuming SRS won't make as many people leave). However, it is one thing to say that people will want to leave after getting bored with one character, and saying "I'm going to leave unless SRS (or SCS) is implemented". That's just saying that unless you get your own way, you're leaving. The devs should NOT listen to this. Not because it's blackmail, but because it's irrelevant. If SCS (or SCS) makes a lot of people leave as a natural consequence (i.e. because it's an unstable feature), then it is a bad feature. But if it makes people leave just because they happen to not like it then this is irrelevant. There will always be people who like something different from you.

[Razel]

Not if they're second guessing, or reaffirming their business model (target market). Then it makes perfect sense.


I just called you all a tool and thats the best you got? Ok lets for arguments sake say your right. Well guess what, this fundamental question should have been asked and answered 5~6 years ago. Now at this stage in the game they want to rethink it? Why waste all the coding up to this point? Why don't they just do as they always have, make the game they want... and 'Produce the fucker', especially if money isn't an issue as they have always said. Even if money is an issue it wont matter and here is why....

It dont fucking matter which model they choose whether it be SCS or SRS. If its SCS sure it will piss some off and they will lose those subscribers however.... it will cause others to buy multiple accts thus balancing itself out. It don't matter how they do it ultimately cause it all balances itself out, they need to run with what they got and see how it goes in live testing/feedback.

This reminds me of a lil clan dorf i once had a few years back, dun remember his name but for arguments sake lets call him Stubby. Lil fucker was funny use to crack me up alot and was a hell of a crafter indeed, a number cruncher from hell i called him. Ok soo when some pvp went down i would say hey Stubby grab your sword and bring your fatass out here and give us a hand! His usual response was, 'aw man can't right now i'm craften' or 'i'm not feeling my best right now, gimme a few min' <<< that one use to kill me irl :lmao: Point is, sometimes ya just hafta rock-n-roll with what ya got and not make excuses or revamp the wheel.

An artist don't dabble in the same painting for years because thats right, it will never be perfect, one has to know when to set the brush down.

Its been over 5 years already for DF, lets get this fucker produced and rock n roll, no need to recode the whole freaken game now. If after much testing in beta or retail it looks like ya need to change something due to popular demand, do it, but keep the vision you had for now.

[Chaos Lord]

Well I just dont think that SCS is fair to everyone. This is just going to force people to play a single role, in a truly immersive online world we should have the options to play many. I don't want to have to make a choice between "gimping" my melee character or buying another account in order to have a crafter. I understand there should be limitations to how many characters you can have but SCS is unfair to the people that won't/can't buy multiple copies of the game. I understand from a companies point of view that you want people to buy multiple copies, but forcing them to do so will harm your playerbase. I know that DarkFall is not catering to the masses but I honestly beleive that most people will want more than 1 char. It will piss alot of people off that I am able to use more of the game world simply becuase I can afford to buy 3 copies and pay for 3 accounts monthly. I don't think it will hurt your box sales making DF SRS, as alot of people will buy 2 copies just so they can play 2 races.

[Nefastus]

Just to summerize my arguments for SRS

(Originally posted by me earlier)

I agree that being a single character in a game like this is very important for accountability, however, people will dual box anyways. As I mentioned earlier, if Devs decide to implement PERMENATE Last Names for all the characters on the same server, along with same alignment for all the characters, it'll basically be like having a single identity on the server. You'll still be recognized as the same player and you'll able to play multiple characters.

Single Race Per Server + Same Alignment/Last Name for Characters on the same Server = Accountability and Single Identity.

Another point, brought up earlier on IRC is rather simple, and deals with PvP. Let's say I'm running a PvP group, and we are lacking a healer, what should we do? Should we wait hours for our guild healer to log on since his mom grounded him for bad grades? Or should I be able to log on my Healer speced toon so I can make sure that my PvP group is speced out and properly set? If my group is lacking certain focused characters, such as maybe Tank, Healer, etc, I should be able to log on them if I have such toon, or let one of my guild mates do so. I don't want to have my guild/PvP group have to depend on someone's real life responsibilities, nor do I want to mass recruit just to make sure that I have every type of character online at any given moment so we can functionally PvP in an organized manner. If I want to have a choice of logging differently speced characters to make sure my guild/group is properly set, I should be able to do so. Without that option, organized PvP guilds will have to either recruit more, which can be damaging, or not be able to PvP properly since certain players might not be only at a given time to play their designated group support characters.

[Sel'Karim]

Well I just dont think that SCS is fair to everyone. This is just going to force people to play a single role, in a truly immersive online world we should have the options to play many. I don't want to have to make a choice between "gimping" my melee character or buying another account in order to have a crafter.

Please consider my responses to this which can be found here (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=579937&postcount=220) and here (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showpost.php?p=581014&postcount=613). The first one offers a compromise between SCS supporters and those who do want to play different types of characters. The second offers a reason for why we shouldn't really aim to play many different types of characters.

[Seyda]

I like the idea of one character.

You should have to live with the conquences of what you do, good or bad, and not be able to simply make a new character at will, especially if it's going to be possible to change your play style and not be 'gimped' from changing.

[Sel'Karim]

Another point, brought up earlier on IRC is rather simple, and deals with PvP. Let's say I'm running a PvP group, and we are lacking a healer, what should we do? Should we wait hours for our guild healer to log on since his mom grounded him for bad grades? Or should I be able to log on my Healer speced toon so I can make sure that my PvP group is speced out and properly set? If my group is lacking certain focused characters, such as maybe Tank, Healer, etc, I should be able to log on them if I have such toon, or let one of my guild mates do so. I don't want to have my guild/PvP group have to depend on someone's real life responsibilities, nor do I want to mass recruit just to make sure that I have every type of character online at any given moment so we can functionally PvP in an organized manner. If I want to have a choice of logging differently speced characters to make sure my guild/group is properly set, I should be able to do so. Without that option, organized PvP guilds will have to either recruit more, which can be damaging, or not be able to PvP properly since certain players might not be only at a given time to play their designated group support characters.

This is a very good argument. I have been pushing for SCS on the grounds that alts should not affect game play, and I've also suggested a compromise between SCS supporters and those who want SRS for the sake of being able to play a variety of characters. However, you present another reason for SRS, one which implies that SRS is necessary for game-play.

I am tempted to say that small clans should recruit more in order to be effective in pvp. This is coming from someone whose clan is quite small as we have a strict recruitment policy. This may sound somewhat idealistic, but I believe that natural selection and 'survival of the fittest' ought to be allowed to operate rampant and free in order to weed out ineffective playing strategies. I realise that this is a very tough line to hold, but I honestly believe that this principle will, in the end, yield the most unique and interesting game experience. I do not believe that the devs should implement features which make the game easy. They should implement features which foster an interesting style of play.

You do offer a very good argument, and I'm aware that my response is somewhat inadequate. In a sense I'm saying, "well, tough luck." But really what I'm saying is we should want features which make the MMO world interesting and unique, and if that makes things difficult, then it is up to us to devise strategies that avoid the difficulties. As far as small clans are concerned, for them alliances will be integral. If their foreign relations are well handled, the kind of problem you point out should be solvable.

Edit: By the way Nefastus, that is a very cool sig. I'll have to come up with something to counter it. Maybe something like if you support SRS, then you're pro Bush. So we should all go for the shelving idea as a compromise. :)

[Mango]

I played MCS and SCS in the past, and SCS is WAY more intensive. The world "lives" much more than on a MCS, where Names are not that important. Accountability, Crafting, Economy, Fame .. all areas which will have much more weight on a SCS. To be honest i&#180;m simply sick of mule b and twink c of the mainchar of a.

On a SCS-Sever people start to play more and do not waste so much time with twinking. Crafters are able to make a name. Politics are more intensive. Long story short : you have an avatar, and are not playing one of your chars.

For sure, there will be people who buy more than one account. But if you try to argue with these kind of arguments, then you can argue about every single rule. The goal is not, to stop everyone in having a mule, but to keep the number of mule/twinks as low as possible.

In a MCS nearly everyone will have his personal crafter, his good Main, his evil Main and so on.. this simply sux.

SCS is the way to go.

Edit : one thing to add : where is the sense of no insta-recalls if everyone have a townguard in his city ? If they implement multiple chars, they can allow insta-recall as well. There is no danger to lay siege far away, if you can be at your homecity in a second.

[Siduris]

some things that have been said to back up SRS turn my Stomach, i remember when i first started reading about DFO and how they were Boasting about therer game they had giving reasons on why the public would love there game. A number of these shouted out SCS such as rolls they said that you would see people play at in there game such as highed mercenaries, the very idea of a game that could provide such character depth appealed to me.
Not to mention the pvp and many other features.

I know its been said all ready but people that are followers of SRS i must say its not about being bored of you character(witch you can all ways reroll with out being forced to delete them) but your roll, your roll in DFO. A roll that will be unique in its own way and have value amoung the community.

[Aakek]

In response to people saying that SCS will kill a game.


Funny, it didn't kill WOW.

Since when did WoW have single character servers? The pvp servers are somewhat like SRS.

One game that does have SCS on the full pvp servers.. pretty much less than 1% of the population even plays on it and pvps instead on the other server.

Everyone keeps dancing around the issue of population imbalances and the effect SCS would have upon this. Its not going to be as easy to trade with the large population (or even possible) and also whats going to guarntee a balance of crafters/combat viable people.

Everyones assuming an alot of lot on both sides of this debate and frankly we have almost no solid information on just how the skill system actually works. Can I be max'd in combat and in a single craft as well as the other support skills? Nobody but the dev know.

[StabbyYooStyle]

Scs

[Wisperer]

im all for SCS. in a game with open pvp and full loot there is a need for accountability to create consequences that actually matter.
but for gameplays sake we need facts on the skill system esp skill caps. if its possible to have only 6 skills full before progression becomes too slow for it to be worth skilling up more, its a little limited.

Very true. If i can train up a few combat skills along with my crafting skills and still be competitive in both arenas then i am all for SCS.
We need more information on the skill system.

[Fall]

Just to summerize my arguments for SRS

(Originally posted by me earlier)


Another point, brought up earlier on IRC is rather simple, and deals with PvP. Let's say I'm running a PvP group, and we are lacking a healer, what should we do? Should we wait hours for our guild healer to log on since his mom grounded him for bad grades? Or should I be able to log on my Healer speced toon so I can make sure that my PvP group is speced out and properly set? If my group is lacking certain focused characters, such as maybe Tank, Healer, etc, I should be able to log on them if I have such toon, or let one of my guild mates do so. I don't want to have my guild/PvP group have to depend on someone's real life responsibilities, nor do I want to mass recruit just to make sure that I have every type of character online at any given moment so we can functionally PvP in an organized manner. If I want to have a choice of logging differently speced characters to make sure my guild/group is properly set, I should be able to do so. Without that option, organized PvP guilds will have to either recruit more, which can be damaging, or not be able to PvP properly since certain players might not be only at a given time to play their designated group support characters.

You shouldn't do pvp if your success depends on tanks, healers and whatever. DF is a skillbased game, so I hope, I don't need a healbot on my ass. Would be pretty lame...btw SCS ftw, good for the crafters and economy.

[bugi]

Why to restricts to just SCS or SRS, when you can have them both...

There could be for example a few days of time-out before you're able to switch to another toon of yours. This will pretty much kill "self-sustained players", since it would be insane to try and switch between your spec toons to accomplish all by yourself some thing that requires multiple roles.

It would also prevent people switching from a toon far away to his home-city defender to some extent (he can do it once _if_ he hasn't recently switched). And do note that while they still _can_ switch-jump to defend, the same applies the other way around.. a counter-attack may be launched, which may force some of the attack force to switch-jump to defend their cities. This switch-jumping is a much larger issue than just SCS vs. SRS, anyway, because it is related to a bunch of other issues, too.

On the other hand, the few days time-out would still allow you to have completely differently played characters (apart from possible race and alignment etc. locks). (Pure SCS will result everyone to be more or less fighter-mage-tradeskiller-trader-... just dig up some other threads about skills and you'll soon find out that the discussions end up in ignorance and words similar to "just friggin learn the new skills").


And why not give the player the chance to choose if he wants SCS or SRS. Two ways to this.

Separate servers with different setup, and one account could have toons spread on the servers as he likes; just limited to one toon in each (and only?) SCS server (and of course some limit on total number of toons). Hardcore SCS people play in SCS server (at least most of the time), others in SRS.. Everyone in the same server would be equal to each other... I'm pretty sure SCS server would be pretty "empty".. though unlaggy, too.

Or, if that doesn't work out, then maybe allow the player to make multiple toons, but e.g. penalize skill "soft caps" proportional to the number of toons he has. Those having tons of toons (and getting the benefits from that) would be balanced to some extent with their tighter caps, while those with just one (or couple) toons would be able to learn a little bit larger variety of skills on that toon (or both toons) in same time. Although, even the spreading of time between the toons may already be enough of a balancing factor, depending how the skill gaining will work. This setup should still be combined with that character switch time-out, of course.


Ok. Shoot. I'll go hiding again.

[bugi]

You shouldn't do pvp if your success depends on tanks, healers and whatever. DF is a skillbased game, so I hope, I don't need a healbot on my ass. Would be pretty lame...btw SCS ftw, good for the crafters and economy.

Uh, this is almost totally .. eh.. BS...

Sure, pvp doesn't need to _depend_ on certain class, but most likely, those who have them all (at least all that can help in combat in any way) will surely have the better odds. Thus, everyone with even the slightest the brains for pvp will try and get them all. Or at least whatever "all" will end up to be the way to do it in DF.

"healbot"? Was that an insult those who want to play a decent healer character. Should I now call melee fighter a "slashbot" and a rogue-type a "ticklebot"? :rolleyes:

DF being "skillbased" doesn't mean you can do it all, that you do not need anyone else, that healers wouldn't be needed in pvp. Who knows, maybe healers will be almost required for anything more than 1-on-1 pvp.

I agree on that last part about SCS being good for crafters and economy, though. But then again, my previous message mentions the time-out thing that may help quite a bit on that crafters with their economy thing.

[Tizz]

One thing that began to kill of the community in UO was the fact everyone became self dependent after a while, everyone had a crafter, a tamer, a mage, a warrior etc.

Single Character per Server is the way to go, it forces you to be reliant on others and helps to build the communities which in the long run ensure the games survival. An average game with a fantastic community will survive longer than a great game with no community.

[Ruggulkrek]

SCS.



One thing that began to kill of the community in UO was the fact everyone became self dependent after a while, everyone had a crafter, a tamer, a mage, a warrior etc.

Single Character per Server is the way to go, it forces you to be reliant on others and helps to build the communities which in the long run ensure the games survival. An average game with a fantastic community will survive longer than a great game with no community.

^ Agrt.



At first I was all for SRS... But now the more I think about it and read other's posts, I'm for Single CHARACTER per server.

I remember now how everyone in UO had their crafter mules, etc.

And like someone else said, single character gives you more meaning. It means you actually value people who have skills that you need.. Or that work well with you, or whatever the case.

And this is coming from a guy who likes to change skills all the time. That's why I wanted multi-character at first until I thought about everything more.

Then think about sailing, too.. Say you have a maxed-out warrior, and then your friend buys a ship and needs a crew. Well, since sailing is now a new concept to you, who would ever get rid of all of their hard-earned maxed-out warrior skills, just to start with ground level sailing skills? Nobody. You'd just make a second character and put your alt on the boat and start working on him.. Pretty soon you've got a maxed out warrior on land, and a very good sailor on the water.. On the same account. So if you're attacking a town from sea and land at the same time.. You can just log onto your sailor, start blasting at the town, then quick switch over to your land-warrior and storm the town with him. That's a cool idea, but kinda lame.

Secondly, I'm for SCS for balance and reputation reasons ontop of it. Any guy who has an alt isn't going to spend as much time on his main to be out there making more of a name for himself for one. Two, people will use the alts for extra bank space and things like that. Three, guys that play 10+ hours every day (I know, I used to be one lol) will be overpowered in a way, because they'll have 2 or 3 characters maxed out, probably in the same area. So, I kill his warrior, take his stuff, he gets pissed, logs on his mage.. And maybe I'm not built very well against mages, and he knows it now, which is why he choses his mage.. So now I'm fighting the same damn guy twice, when normally I'd only have to fight him once.. And this time he gives himself a skill advantage over my character because due to the knowledge of the last fight, he knows a mage will do better against me. And hell, he might even have 3 guys.

So yeah, it's like backup kits for people that play more than casual player, and that's kinda fucked up. Why should they get extra lives? (not to mention, without the downtime a normal player would take, even fi it's just going to the bank to grab a grab-bag!) I know, I know, because they play the game more so they deserve it, right?.. But, why couldn't they just take that extra time and make more of a reputation for themselves, make themselves richer, gain more power, etc.. Don't you think it's cheap that they'll be able to have an extra life, with max skill, and great gear too, right on hand whenever they get in a jam?

And again like someone else mentioned.. Territory control. A large guild with alot of members, that are full of power gamers, will all have at least 1 alt maxed out too.. So, they get to jump from one territory to another with a simple log-out/log-in, and be just as powerful as their main (just with a different style). So large guilds will effectively be able to hold two territories next to each other with relatively the same ease that they hold the first one... And I thought the game wasn't supposed to be like that, and not be tailored to guilds that are simply strong in numbers. That's why they have a guildstone spawn cap and stuff, right?


I forget what else I was going to write, cause it's like 3:05am here.. But, again, my vote?

SCS.

[Axairick]

SCS would, much like a lock on a door, keep honest men honest. Sure, some people will have multiple accounts to get around the limitations of SCS. there's no way to avoid that, nor any reason not to sell an extra copy of the game.

I would love to be able to have a second or third character available to me on a single server. I could play as a female to see if anyone would give me free stuff. I could play a pirate. I could join the guild of a same-race enemy and spy.

Luckily, I don't currently feel a pull to experiment with a female, I think that pirates are a little clich

[Sel'Karim]

Though I will be abiding by SCS, I can not find any clear argument against SRS or one clearly designating SCS as superior.

There are certainly arguments against SRS, though it comes down ultimately to what you value. There are also arguments against SCS and the same thing applies. For instance, if you WANT to have the flexibility to play any kind of character at any moment, then of course you'd support SRS. I can't stop people from wanting that, no matter how good my arguments are. I can only say what will be better for the game overall, but not what is better for this or that individual. And what I mean by 'better for the game' is: more interesting economy, more interesting player interaction, more interesting roleplaying, and so on. I think the arguments for SCS are clearly in favour of those things. The arguments for SRS are in favour of individual enjoyment, because people can pick and choose more, and play a wider variety of characters. But SRS will not promote a more interesting world over all. I think that is fairly clear.

[Gunther TheBlack]

Thank god. Gunther, why dont you just post your opinion once and then leave the thread? Please STFU. Because frankly im getting annoyed by reading your pig-headed persistence. Despite everything youve written and will soon write, you arent going to change our minds / opinions about SCS. Youre just like a relentless SRS missionary on a fucking divine-appointed mission to liberate humanity from SCS opinions: annoying, stupid, and stubborn.

You SCS guys love me!

[Gunther TheBlack]

Darkfall is doomed before it starts when they implement SCS.


Altho, perhaps it's good for my guild, we tend to get multiple accounts for each member. If there will be a crafter town we will siege it and destroy it, pk all miners and crafters that we see and get a big economic advantage in the area we live because we got crafter bots :D

[monte]

I vote SCS. I don't think everyone should be able to do everything..... If so, then who would need crafting guild?? Or a mercenary guild... or pirate guild... and so on... Everybody in every guild would have 2-4 characters filling one of these rolls....

I just think it takes out to much of the team work, politics, and strategy out of the game. To be successful, a nation would have to form of different types. The warrior guild would guard the crafter/merchant guild on land, while the shipping guild would provide the sailors to transport and protect the goods on land...... This just sounds more fun to me then every guild being able to be the best at everything....

[Yarias]

Now from my post just above it seems that we might end up with the following problem. You're playing a melee character and decide you'd rather be a spell caster for a while. After you play him for a while you think to yourself "that sucks! I want to cleave heads off!" On my system you can't go back to your melee alt for a given period. The solution to this which I've mentioned in entry 220 of this thread is that you CAN go back to your melee character but only if you're willing to DELETE your spellcaster. Now if you really thought that the spellcaster sucked, then you shouldn't have any issue with this. But if you're merely bored, then yes you're stuck with it.

Went to sleep and came back, but yes, this system would be better than what I had suggested.

This is from the whole shelving sub-discussion that I had a while back.

[crapko]

wow, my last visit to the forums was 11-12-05, anywho!!!
i saw this topic and decided to voice my backing of SRS!!!!!

[Axairick]

For instance, if you WANT to have the flexibility to play any kind of character at any moment, then of course you'd support SRS. I can't stop people from wanting that, no matter how good my arguments are. I can only say what will be better for the game overall, but not what is better for this or that individual.

So, are we trying to create a new and explicit paradigm for games, or are we trying to please the greatest number of people?

Granted, there are many people that would be most pleased by the restrictions of SCS, but I assume many more would be more pleased with more flexibility/options within the game for their $10-15/ month. Fuel efficiency and better handling or more seating and horsepower for your SUV?

[Malishan]

I never do it. I just quit the game.

But I'm almost certainly a minority. I'm not even close to the mainstream gamer, and it shouldn't matter to anyone if I personally leave the game. Still, there must be other people like me who get fed up with all the mules and other alt nonsense, enough so that they quit. It's proably very hard to track this, which I'm sure is why the devs are trying to "get a feel" for how people would react to a SCS.

Having closely followed this issue for many years, my own personal opinion is that the majority of the people wouldn't miss multiple characters one bit, however if they were there, they'd use them to their full potential. I doubt I'm alone in this opinion.

haha wow dude. I've never known anyone to get so upset about alts that they'd leave a game. If you would, you are completely unique, or full of shit.

[Strontyd]

SCS sounds the best way to me, if you cantrain your toon in anything you like theres no need for multiple toons, if you do feel you need more than one toon then just buy another account, simpla as.

[Sel'Karim]

So, are we trying to create a new and explicit paradigm for games, or are we trying to please the greatest number of people?

Granted, there are many people that would be most pleased by the restrictions of SCS, but I assume many more would be more pleased with more flexibility/options within the game for their $10-15/ month. Fuel efficiency and better handling or more seating and horsepower for your SUV?

That's entirely up to the devs. Our job is just to try to say what's what.

[Ohaan]

this all boils down to one common denominator:

it is difficult for many to consider surrendering to idealogies which differ from those presented in the pioneer games(UO) of the genre.

Word :cool:

[Gotrex]

Altho, perhaps it's good for my guild, we tend to get multiple accounts for each member. If there will be a crafter town we will siege it and destroy it, pk all miners and crafters that we see and get a big economic advantage in the area we live because we got crafter bots :D

This is a great arguement for why SCS creates more interesting server politics. On a SRS server burning that crafter town to the ground would be a minor event which no one would care about because they are all self sufficient with there crafter mules. On an SCS server you can bet that every clan that depended on that town for supplies would show up to defend it, which imo is a much more interesting political situation.

However given a sufficient population (which admitedly is an asumption) why not just have a server for each? 1 SRS server and 1 SCS server, that way everyone is happy. Its not as if it would be hard for the devs to maintain since it doesnt actualy effect any core gameplay mechanics, mearly the attitudes of the players on the server.

[Ohaan]

just a thought...maybe a lot of them are assholes and elitists because the game they play supports them more that way than as friendly and helpful.

Bingo. Thank you Snitz.

[reece]

The game experience in a SCS game is much more intense.
The players are taking the game much more serious.
The players&#180; actions and behaviour gets much more important.

Its either confrontate with the actual Situation of the Character or logging off. Beeing responsible and facing consequences is a major keypart in a game aswell as in reallife.


Accountability is the keyword for a strong and meaningful society-/ war-/ world-simulation.

We want to join a virtual world to go out and interact with other players and the environment. There are multiple ways to evade consequences and confrontation. But logging to a different char SHOULD NOT be a possibility. Aswell as farming/lvling in a safezone is NOT a possibility either.

[Gaelan]

I totally see the value in SCS... however I would prefer having just 1 extra charcter. Having 2 characters will still impact the economy a bit, but not so much to cripple it in any fashion. Clans will still need near full time crafters in this scenario, but, people are left able to play entirely different rolls if they so choose from time to time. With skill degredation and demand, crafters will still need to play near full time. And vice versa, fighters etc. can explore crafting, gathering and other fighting styles a bit, but will still need to plain their mains near full time as well.

[Axairick]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before or not, and I forgot to mention it in my earlier post.

SCS= Less lag.

That's right... If there is one character per account on each server (There will only be 1 for a long time, as I understand the situation), then there will be less information the server needs to contain, so it can run faster, allowing us to lag less and enjoy combat more. Not to mention better load times... if they exist.

[Ohaan]

Another point, brought up earlier on IRC is rather simple, and deals with PvP. Let's say I'm running a PvP group, and we are lacking a healer, what should we do? Should we wait hours for our guild healer to log on since his mom grounded him for bad grades?

<snip>

Without that option, organized PvP guilds will have to either recruit more, which can be damaging, or not be able to PvP properly since certain players might not be only at a given time to play their designated group support characters.

Then you ensure that several members have some sort of healing skill trained. You are stuck thinking that a group has to be tank + healer + dps. It can also be hybrid tank/healer/dps x 3. You just have to alter your tactics; call it a challenge.

[Ohaan]

Even IF I was for SRS, I would have to poopoo the active character idea. One of the benefits of MCS's is allowing other people to play on the same install (ie. family). If you start restricting logins then you lose this benefit.

[Yarias]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before or not, and I forgot to mention it in my earlier post.

SCS= Less lag.

That's right... If there is one character per account on each server (There will only be 1 for a long time, as I understand the situation), then there will be less information the server needs to contain, so it can run faster, allowing us to lag less and enjoy combat more. Not to mention better load times... if they exist.

As far as I know, it wouldn't have any impact on the speed of the server, it still has to go into the database and get all the relevant character's data. Database searching and indexing has become so effecient that the effect on server speed should be marginal.

[Prathion]

I like the last name option, as it allows for one to be identified & held accountable without limiting playstyle & function.
Many of us like to have very specific toons in which we play depending on mood & circumstance. I've recently started playing SB agian & i love the fact you can have several finished toons to choose from depending on what one wants to do or feels like doing. Plus its nice to give healers the chance to play fighting chars once in a while. I know some players enjoy healing, but a majority do not. It makes having a balanced guild much easier as players can take turns with certain classes such as healers.

Limiting 1 char per game account only leads to players having more than 1 account & no accountibilty.

As far as the economy in a game, its never balanced and always caters to the player who has unlimited time & money for additional accounts. The best thing for a mmorpg is to let players have easy access to good gear, just make it have item decay/wear factors. That way crafters are always sought after. I liked UO's crafting system. Most players won't go thru the hassle of making a crafter & rather just kill things & pay for it. Its when items become to scarce & powerful or high in price that games become flooded with alt crafters because its the only way to get items. Then the game becomes about putting time in just to get items. As far as i am concerned thats the death of the genre.

My favorite aspect of UO was that one could change they way one looked easily without having to bust the bank. If you wanted to try a different sword no big deal, you just bought it. Want to wear an all black armor set go purchase one. It added to Roleplay in a major way & also added to the overall enjoyment of the game. One was free to do what one wanted.
I play rpgs for the fantasy aspect of it. The fantasy of fighting other players, the fantasy of having large amounts of phat loot. The fantasy of exploration and adventure. The fantasy of playing different characters with different personalities. Perhaps if the mmorpg community actually concentrated on the RP part perhaps the other aspects would become the less driving force.
Long live UO!
Death to the Carrot & Stick!

[keeperofstars]

still think my shelving idea started way back about 10 pages ago would work overall.

Onto a new point though.

Lets not forget you can hire npcs to do a bunch of work.

People all bitching about wanting that crafter or spell casting.

Hire a npc to go out and harvest / mine the resources you need to get weaponsmithing up, so your out only 1 or 2 skills max to become the best swordsmith around your buddy learns armorsmithing and your set. Got two full time crafters which are hand feed by their npc's.

Like playing that warrior but feel having a few extra heals would be nice, hire a priest npc to help you out, till you have time to learn them on your own.

I still think my shelf idea works as a great compromise for both sides, but I can tell you now the elite mother fuckers that will be owning you in PvP will be the guys that do SCS even if the server is SRS. Why cause 3 years down the road they will be able to do most things to atleast some degree of efficency might not be gm in everything but liable to be a grandmaster mage, gradmaster in a melee skill and atleast have a good start on bow, add in some crafting and they are always good to go.

Now for the argument guilds will need the multiple accounts to support them if they are a small guild. Yes true but what is going to be more effiecent, having the warrior run off the field pop open his inventory and hit repair, or having one of your guys sitting their trying to repair everyone elses shit. Point is a guild that works to get up a wide range of skills and works as a team will be rewarded 100 fold compaired to the zerg guilds that end up with 100 guys and 700 alts to do it all.

[WhiteWolf]

SCS,

If the developers deliver on what the promise on the skill system then why the hell not. Also, you want another character, make one on a new server as your "test" character. Have your guildies make there extra toons on that server also, still with your freinds.

SCS will just make each talent and each person that more valuable, just seems to bring a whole new lvl of immersion to the game for me.

SCS just makes way more sense for THIS game(again if it comes out like the developers said it would).

[Webco]

Diversity is what is compelling to to me. Making more then one character, might just come down to making a male character and a female character. Roll playing is also another dynamic that might be important. Whether it be SCS or SRS, giving anyone the option to at least have 2 characters, 2 different races makes a lot of marketing sense to me.

Webco

[Elix]

Uh huh. And having multiple characters eliminates the risk of getting killed how? Its easy to spout out buzz words like carbear and such.

I could just as easily say that SCS supporters are Carebears because they dont want anyone having alternate character to switch between so no one can have an advnatage over them. Like having a evil character and a good one. You want everyone to have to be responsible for every little thing they do so you can get an easy paybay kill on them. Thats the only reason. You want Darkfall to be "Cheers". Where "everybody knows your name". If you aske me, thats uber carebear. :lmao:

You could just as easily say that SCS supporters are carebears because they don't want anyone having alternate character to switch between so no one can have an advantage over them?

Wow! What a mouthful. Sure you could say that, but the thing is it just makes you look foolish. And how is wanting to get payback on a well known PKer....carebear? Obviously, you're really confused. You can't twist facts and expect people to be amazed at how great of an arguer you are.


It doesnt change the fact that you quoted a forum user. His opinion is bias and does not repersent the official stance of the devs...... as a matter of fact, nothing really does.

His opinion is bias for wanting Darkfall to stay true to its community? I think in this situation it does matter.


Do you really know what the devs want? I dont even think the devs know what the devs want. They flip-flop more than a politician during campaign time. Do you know what that is a sign of? Doubt. They must not be too confident in their project as you think. Im right, theyve got alot riding on all of this. They cant afford a screw up. And the more indicisive they are, the more the doubt and lack of confidence shows.

The devs may change things sometimes but our dream is still here. Indicisive? We haven't heard anything about SRS and SCS for years. Now that they've started this topic and support SCS -- they're indicisive? Sounds like you're just angry.

Come back to the battlefield when you can hold your own.

[Fylraen]

I prefer a single-character server.

Accountability and immersion.

If I want to play a crafter, great. There should be rewards for that. But I shouldn't be able to just switch off my crafter and change over to my death machine any time someone comes by with an aggressive bent. Where's the immersion in playing a citizen then? Most massive games to date let you switch characters around without repercussion; I think limiting to one character is a great way to buck the mold and make a more immersive, entertaining game.

One of the arguments here was that "Say I want a pirate character with X, Y, and Z skils, but I'm curious about these other A, B, and C skills." The great thing about Darkfall, supposedly, is that you can just pick up A, B, and C and play with them. Maybe you'll have to sacrifice something to get them to their top-notch state but that's as it should be. You can always go back anyways!

In the event that multiple characters are allowed, they should absolutely be tied by last name and alignment. The reasons for that are many, and well-stated up to now.

quick edit: It always amazed me that people are willing to pay double the money to have an advantage over others in an online video game. Just lame.

[Antimatter]

In my opinion Single Race Per Server with the same last name would be great.

It allso makes ppl more devoted to their character!

Antimatter

[Prathion]

The question I would have next for the players who want single char per server would be how long would it take to change play style?
Would one lose interest/motivation to do so?
One race/last name seems to me like the best compromise & allows players to be held accountable and also gives them freedom to choose different play styles.
Pidgeon holing a player to 1 char doesn't seem appealing to me at all, especially when its catering a minority of the playerbase-the ones that abuse & take advantage of a system. I'm all for an adult only server. Proof of age required.

[Agge]

I heard some good points for both sides of the deal and has come to the conclusion that I would prefer... One char per server.

Im sure at this many pages any point I could bring up as to why I think one char per server would be better has already been coverd.

[PsiQuore]

I personally like the idea of having SRS!

[ChewY]

SCS

Reasons

1) Puts and end to muling

2) Gets people to RP instead of grind

3) stops some potential pvp problems

4) Good for community and econemy.

5) Makes the game more challenging.

[ChewY]

The question I would have next for the players who want single char per server would be how long would it take to change play style?
Would one lose interest/motivation to do so?
One race/last name seems to me like the best compromise & allows players to be held accountable and also gives them freedom to choose different play styles.
Pidgeon holing a player to 1 char doesn't seem appealing to me at all, especially when its catering a minority of the playerbase-the ones that abuse & take advantage of a system. I'm all for an adult only server. Proof of age required.

It takes just as long to change playstyle as it does in SRS but you do it on a different server.

[Dr Pepper]

I like to play a PvP character and a crafter but wouldnt personally want them as the same role. Having seperate roles allows me to seperate my game play and have different friends in different circles.

[Necrash]

Acountabilty yet again LOL.

Dont matter how many times its said its funny!!

most say yea we want it but its only a way for the griefers to know yer alts and the never leave u alone..... it does not help the cry baby!!

yet I get the distinct fealing thouse are the ones screaming acountabiltiy!acountabilty!! when most red griefers will probly have one ubber toon u cant kill when u get on that alt with same last name he will know o yea there goes that nub I enjoy killing so much!!:lmao:

To me it does not matter 1player per account 1 per server 1race

who cares who is gona have time to bring up 10 toons when u can have it all in just 1??? the way i see it if u roll 2 toons u only end up with 2 toons half as good as 1that would get all yer playing time!

Unless u waned to get a compleatly diferent prestige class 2 toons is beyon me u will only split yer playing time and thus u will suck. and then u will have accountabilty so u can get killed by that griefer lol..

[Droops]

SCS, As long as the devs follow through with the skill based system so you won't have to reroll three or four different characters to play in all aspects of the game. Another problem might be not having enough room to carry all of your gathered goods, but player housing should fix that so I say SCS.

[MightyDar]

I would have to say no on both topics. 4 to 6 toons per server.

[Dashiva]

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize in advance if this has been stated previously.

Why not start a poll, or run some sort of analysis. Outline some proposed configurations and find out which works best for SCS and SRS (the finer details: forced last name.. etc etc). Then see how many people are for the final spec for Single Character per Server and how many people for Single Race per Server etc etc.

Based on that split, when setting up servers, designate a certain amount of servers for a SCS and a certain amount of servers for SRS environments. In all reality, everyone has valid arguments for either solution and its one of those things where there is no "right" answer. It's highly subjective and ultimately you will need to make a decision based on where the majority vote lies.

If its possible, why not play it safe and include just one server that is the opposite to allow for those who which for that dynamic to be satisfied. Easy solution to a complicated problem if you ask me. ;)

[slugy]

I'm all for SCS. few reasons for this. the main one would be crafters will be in high demand.
why bother with paying for shit when you can make your own.
I like that fact that you would only be able to play one char and not have people logging there alt to make a few swords cos he was just wtf pwnt.

its not like you will only ever be able to play that char. just make a new char on a different server.


fuck being able to do everything yourself tbh. where be the community in that.

I'd written more but i deleted most of it as it got a bit flamey towards the trammys.

[Vattic]

You weren't responding to me, but I wanted to take a moment to respond to this type of logic anyway, as I think it sums up exactly what's wrong with online games.

Online games should be more competitive. When you play a competitive game, you're playing against THE PLAYER, not the character (or at least you should be).

Although I realize that many people will play Darkfall on a far more casual level, I sincerely disagree with anyone that thinks this gives them an inherent right to less accountability.


what? how does it create accountability? look, we're just going to go in circles because i am a rp pvper and you are obviously not. if i make an evil character to pk you, my second character isn't going to act that way. no one is forcing you to get revenge on me, the player by attacking my second toon. that's not accountability, that's revenge. imo you should wait till you see my pk and attack him, not be a coward and attack my weaker alt so you feel better about pwning that evil pk real good. obviously you feel like you should be able to attack any player's characters at anytime if one of them has wronged you. my argument is that for all of your screaming about accountability that this type of move totally destroys both accountability for your and only your character's actions and it also destroys any roleplaying experience. so agree to disagree i guess.

[Vattic]

While its 100% impossible to make that everything character, my point was there was nothing to stop you from doing it.



except for the impossibility that you mentioned? what?

[Gunther TheBlack]

SCS

Reasons

5) Makes the game more challenging.


It blows my mind how it makes the game more challenging.

I don't really see reasons why SCS or SRS or MCS makes a game harder or easier. Everyone plays under the same rules.

[Sidabras]

SRS, depending on how the skills and game play work.

Or maybe SCS, depending on how the skills and game play work.

This is a discussion, it is however not an informed one.

Crafter alts may simply not be very useful. The ability to craft useful items may be linked to completing quest, or to skills which require a decent amount of faction per character.

Pk alts may share alignment across the account, so you have a shared alignment per account.

Storage mules may not be needed, if the banking system is secure.

How much of a pvp advantage is there to a dedicated fighting template? How much does role specialization in organized pvp matter? Will race imbalance mean greatly one sided fights?

Asking questions is a process. The more informed and focused the process, the more useful the result you get out of it.

Have you considered:

Those posting on this board are not likely representative of the player base on release?

The binary question, SCS or SRS does not reflect how those two options might be modified. Specifics on what those to options mean is also not clear, particularly with regard to shared alignment and SRS.

[Falokis]

SCS. I would list everything, but I think Surely has done it already.

[Kasu]

I just quit a game that has multi chars per server and I guess If I hadn't had that, I would have quit a long time ago.. reason..

After awhile I got tired of playing the same char, even tho I could do many things.. there's no challenge once you've accomplished your personal goal. So being able to role another char different from my first made it new again, and I could still talk to all the friends I made with my first char, and make some new ones. And if I wanted to I could bring on my first char for old times sake.

Plus, if I had to delete my first char to make a new one? UGH, to lose all the work you put into something would be sad.

As far as accountability goes, can't say I've ever had an issue with it, tho by making all characters on the account have something in common, such as the last name, it seems that would take care of that.