Online Worlds Roundtable #12 - Part 1

[Tasos]

Topic: Are Online Worlds Too Complex?
Within the online world community, there are both developers and players who feel that, as a generalization, the games tend to be too complex, over-intellectualized and over-designed.

Claus participates in the rebirth of RPG Vault's Online Worlds Roundtable #12 - Part 1 (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/730/730412p3.html)

[Sarusan]

No alfar again buu

[Suitepee]

I agree with what Claus said.

[Asmodeus]

better than screenshots...

[doma]

Yeah, just read it.
Agree with Claus.

[Webco]

Could not agree more! The gaming world needs complexity, and BTW the rides at disneyland, way out dated for my taste, just like some of the current online gaming worlds. DK feels good, world feels good.

Webco

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Agreed, need more depth not less.

[|Avalanche]

Nice and as said, Agreed!

[damionD]

Woopie, a dev talks about nothing and it gets posted. I hope this does not take away from what I was hoping to be a good update-day.

[Ankh]

I believe online worlds should be more complex than they are today. When players have killed every monster, solved every quest and tried out every emote, they'll need new levels of depth and new areas of gameplay to explore.

Depth is key, with emphasis on quality.

[Askel]

I also fully agree with Claus.

[pureshok]

Ehh is it just me or am I the only one not seeing this as an update? Exactly what about the game DF was updated? I would of taken new SS over a random talk about mmorpgs in general, I just hope the excuse for this is that betas soon and they don't want to give anything away...

[Always_PEPSI]

We need more depth in our world and our intereviews.

[Yuengling.OoB]

I don't think online worlds are too complex. Far from it. As a matter of fact, I find most current games too shallow and repetitive to hold player interest for very long. You don't need much skill to play most of them - mainly, you need time - and you too can own the Golden Platemail of Awesome. A good example of online worlds being oversimplified is the current trend of getting a quest from an NPC, and having the game literally draw a red line from point A to point B, so you can follow it and 'solve' the quest. That's not very challenging, and when it comes to demanding players, it can't hold much entertainment value either.

AMEN!

I swear I was just arguing with a WOW addict the other day about this very point.

[Marrock]

Couldn't agree more very good read, thanks for the heads up Tasos.

[Yuengling.OoB]

Ehh is it just me or am I the only one not seeing this as an update? Exactly what about the game DF was updated? I would of taken new SS over a random talk about mmorpgs in general, I just hope the excuse for this is that betas soon and they don't want to give anything away...

No alfar again buu

So is this the update?

This is not an update...

[Teth]

As usual, Claus is a man of profound wisdom and insight when it comes to talking about game design.

Who here remembers when he took Mark Jacobs of Mythic to task in Roundtable #10!


...My point has to do with what's under the hood, the game mechanics; I am talking about what the players themselves are complaining about - like experience points, levels, leveling, camping, character classes and having to re-roll all the time, nerfing, turn-based combat, grinding, moving from one spot to the next for better experience points - in short, doing the same old stuff over and over again until your eyes bleed and you have nothing to show for it except a number indicating your level. A level that says everything about the time invested in the game, and virtually nothing about how good you are, or about how much fun you've had playing.

[Mordhak]

What can I say, I wholeheartedly agree!

[rekker]

Totally agree!

This isn't only true in online worlds either. Deus Ex 2, for example, was simplified because they didn't think players wanted to do the unneccessary stuff like planning your inventory space (One item takes up one slot; a pistol takes up as much space as a sniper rifle.), planning what ammunition you needed (They introduced a universal ammunition, so all weapons used the same ammo.), find a book on the bedside table of an in game character and being able to read a small amount of it, even though it had nothing to do with the game world. (This was one of the aspects of the first game that really made players feel like they were in a massive, complex gameworld, and not just playing through an arcade game)

Of course, more complex games like EVE have a large amount of people entering the world, not having a clue what they're doing (not giving the game a chance), and quitting within an hour. Although theres effort involved in jumping the learning curve of EVE, once a player has put the effort in, it can be one of the most involving games in existence.

I don't tend to like games that are extremely easy to pick up. They tend to sacrafice depth for a more accessable game for the less....mentally abled (or little kiddies)

[Satan]

where can i get the golden platemail of awesome?

[Taneos]

Good interview and good points.
There was an article about "Games playing themselves for the player" which also referred, next to other things, to those quests that get marked by a red line.... and the incredible challenge they pose ..

[Niccoli]

As usual, Claus is a man of profound wisdom and insight when it comes to talking about game design.

Who here remembers when he took Mark Jacobs of Mythic to task in Roundtable #10!

Yeah, that was good.

This was a good read as well, the nice thing is a lot of them are saying the same things (except for toontown, but thats because of who they design for). I'm just waiting for the more mainstream to jump in and tell us how it should be 'easy mode' more and more. :P How many days does this thing run anyway?

However, I hate IGN's large text quotes of something you'll read two paragraphs later. It's just filler to make the article look longer. :P Most of the time the quote is out of context, or is missing a key point that makes it truly stand out.

[Niccoli]

This is not an update...

Exactly. This is the 'news' forum, not 'update' forum.

Notice it's those that are only used to seeing updates here tho, you can't blame em too much. :P

[kehmesis]

Yep, that was a great answer. But it's been obvious, for a long time, that the developpers have pretty much the same mentality than the gamers following them. The answer doesn't surprise me.

We've all been razorwax fans because the devs had the same philosphy as ours. Whether they became Aventurine matters little, we're still supporting RW's ideas and so is Claus.

[Yuengling.OoB]

Even on Diablo II, I designed entirely in Excel spreadsheets, creating progression curves and using them to make a level 10 skeleton appropriately more challenging to fight than a level 2. I wanted to get to the level of simulating as much of the play experience as possible outside the game.

Sounds real complex... the level 10 skeleton is much more challenging than the level 2 skeleton.

[pureshok]

Exactly. This is the 'news' forum, not 'update' forum.

Notice it's those that are only used to seeing updates here tho, you can't blame em too much. :P

Yes but its the "Darkfall News" section... as in news about darkfall the game. I still fail to see how this relates to DF in anyway, except for that fact that DF is also a mmorpg.

[RavenLord]

AMEN!

I swear I was just arguing with a WOW addict the other day about this very point.


Don´t waste your breath...you can´t save ´em all :D

Ohh and...Damn! Lighten up Pureshock! :bang:

[Preston]

Again, this is why the Darkfall developers "get it." Those who argue for "simplicity" in MMO's are trying to "dumb down" games and that is exactly what should *not* happen.

[LanMandragon]

Great piece there. Its interesting that EVE and Darkfall development are the ones that feel strongly that games aren't complex enough.

[Yuengling.OoB]

Yes but its the "Darkfall News" section... as in news about darkfall the game. I still fail to see how this relates to DF in anyway, except for that fact that DF is also a mmorpg.

Perhaps it's not news about Darkfall, but it is news related to Darkfall considering the lead designer and producer of Darkfall is envolved in the discussion.


"Claus Grovdal
Lead Designer and Producer, Darkfall
Aventurine
For the sake of this ro...

I would wager the opinions of Claus in this article are going to be implimented in Darkfall the game. I would wager you will not log on, find the newbie trainer, collect ten rat pelts, and gain experience/skill. Etc.

[DragonHunter42]

Nicely put, and I too fully agree. Most games generally are not complex or deep enough other than follow a to b, fight different colored spider, lather rince, repeat.

[Sarusan]

Online Worlds Roundtable #12 - Part 1 - why do i think that we will have more shitty updates like that instead of some needed info/media ?

[LanMandragon]

Online Worlds Roundtable #12 - Part 1 - why do i think that we will have more shitty updates like that instead of some needed info/media ?

Thats not just for Darkfall dude, its a bigger issue. And if we do, so what. Updates dont change much, beta will.

[Sarusan]

Yeah but i think we should see something more, like Alfars before beta, shouldnt we? Updates show perfectly when they will release beta, i might be even able to give a +/- month of beta release after analysing updates, time, and with some little help from people that met dev's on live.

[Metal Wolf]

At least a few people in the industry aren't trying to do the exact oposite of what makes a good game.

I hate simple stuff.

[Airius Droc]

Claus responded well to the question. It's too bad he couldn't have said something more like this though...

"Are online world's too complex? Are you fucking stupid? Don't even ask me a question like that. Go log back into WoW. Idiots. How retarded can you be to ask a question like that? Complex. Oh, let me see here, by complex you must mean that the wrapping paper on the box is too sticky and prevents people from opening the game without tearing the marketing graphics. Fucking morons. Go eat your own poop, you slime monkeys."

As a side note, who the hell cares what Ashen Temper has to say about anything? I wouldn't ask that guy for directions to the bathroom.

I can't wait for your game to come out so people like Ashen Temper can tell you how wrong you are about everything. That's going to be rich.

[nooblicon]

I like the way Mike Goslin from Disney didn't really address the topic. The first paragraph was a half-assed, vague non-answer to the topic's question, and the majority of the rest of his argument talked about his game.:rolleyes:

It just seemed to me that Disney's input was more of a way to advertise his game than actually discuss the rountable topic. None of the other devs even mentioned their own games.

[WhatTheFawk]

Yeah but i think we should see something more, like Alfars before beta, shouldnt we?

Besides that fact that this is obviously news and not an update(updates usually contain things about... the game). We don't know when beta is (and it's not tommorow), so we likely will see Alfar before beta.


Updates show perfectly when they will release beta

How so? This isn't a run of the mill company, they don't even have a PR department last I heard. If anything there would be less or more random updates before beta because they'd be working harder to get the game finished; since they want to have it almost complete by the time beta starts.

I'm really glad to hear them saying and stressing this point over and over, from the article, because it's all that matters really. Honestly if models suck well big deal they can fix them, but if gameplay sucks I don't care how cool alfar look, bye.

By the way I just came from Wish, then Dark and Light (beta of doom/hilariousness), so no I'm not overly optimistic.

[Airius Droc]

As usual, Claus is a man of profound wisdom and insight when it comes to talking about game design.

Who here remembers when he took Mark Jacobs of Mythic to task in Roundtable #10!

Ya know what's really LAME about Mark Jacobs. It's not that he's stupid. It's not that he's without undrestanding of the market place, or the crappy game he sells. He gets all that. He has to. Most of the people in the inustry, even Raph Koster "gets it." These games are treadmills, they reward time investments (carrot) to players to continue subscription growth.

When Darkfall launches, we're going to be attacked by every Mark Jacobs and Raph Koster there is (not to mention idiots like Ashen Temper). Why? Money. Although no one is going to step up to the plate and make a game like Darkfall, they all fear it. They fear that this type of game will be just successful enough to change the expectations of gamers. That Darkfall will actually have the depth that Claus talks about, and that people will leave the WoW's, DoAC's and Everquets of the genre for more gripping and interactive gameplay.

So what's LAME about Mark Jacobs is that when he talks, he's always selling something, DoAC. When he writes something, he's trying to convince people that his game's shit doesn't stink. It's marketing, it's business. It's everything we as players could give a rats ass about. But because there's yet to be a viable alternative, we're helpless, and our voice is often overshadowed or marginalized.

Here's to hoping that changes someday soon.

[Nalira]

the more complex a world, the more immersive it feels... in WoW (or any other mmorpg for that matter)... it feels like you are just playing in a background and not actually living within it (at least thats how i feel)

i couldnt agree more, because a basic world would just get old and boring fast... complexity is the way to go in my opinion.

EDIT: Oh and its nice to see that Claus has the exact kind of concept that i need in a game and hopefully something or perhaps someone doesnt change Claus' opinion on the concept.

[KillSwitch]

Agreed. More depths

[Mordhak]

Sooo... what about our usual IGN update? It should be here by now.

[Sarusan]

Sooo... what about our usual IGN update? It should be here by now.
That's my point, there wont be any IGN update, they need more time, and more updates will give em time to beta, so they need to save some IGN updates for later.

[Helgeran]

I loved complex games even when I was in the age 8-12, making things too easy is bad as it doesn't encourage development. Games that doesn't let me improve as a person (might it be reflexer or whatever) hold no interest to me.

[LanMandragon]

That's my point, there wont be any IGN update, they need more time, and more updates will give em time to beta, so they need to save some IGN updates for later.

I dont think they need to buy time. The simple fact is they could leave us updateless and nothing is going to happen. They said beta before the end of the year so /tipglass and "heres to waiting"

[Sirtalon]

What the hell is that EVE rep. babbling about? It's the learning curve that makes a game intriguing in the first place.

And Claus pwns face, as expected.

[Phooey]

As always, Claus proves that he has his head on straight.

[Solohk]

Great update. Better than any screenshot. Claus nailed that question in my opinion. The answer only solidified my opinion on Darkfall.

[Wisperer]

Complexity good

Simple games bad.

[Angry-Khan]

Preach it Claus! The best argument out of all of them <3

Its funny how everyones statements dwell upon the shortfalls of each of those games. At least for the shadowbane and eve rep. I have no clue why that toontown rep is even in there, he just proved that he was a complete idiot. He was part of a game that i would hesitate to call a "sucess" and he thinks his game is worth a can of beans to anyone who would read that discussion. When he listed the statistics at the end i was cracking up.



"Are online world's too complex? Are you fucking stupid? Don't even ask me a question like that. Go log back into WoW. Idiots. How retarded can you be to ask a question like that? Complex. Oh, let me see here, by complex you must mean that the wrapping paper on the box is too sticky and prevents people from opening the game without tearing the marketing graphics. Fucking morons. Go eat your own poop, you slime monkeys."

Its a good thing he didnt say that, because 1) they wouldnt have published it and 2) coming off as a fucking idiot is not exaclty a good approach as a game dev.

[Unknewn]

As always, Claus proves that he has his head on straight.

A man that knows what hes doing.

[Shadow Walker2020]

Claus certainly knows what hes talking about. This strengthens my faith in the devs that they will make a very balanced game with depth and complexity that will keep many players entranced with Darkfall for years to come.

[Maglubiyet]

Hopefully DarkFalls world is complex as they want it to be, with the underground caves, under water caverns, and the size of mountains.

The best part was his mention of the quests, instead of A - B , more so find it as a hint of what to do, and you go explore and find it yourself. Would make questing alot more interesting, and less of the same thing over and over again like in most games now.

[Spellmaker]

More screenies IMO, more Stuff IMO

a spell or two being cast woudln kill them would it or maybe a city seige or somethign other then sword fights be nice

[Airius Droc]

Its a good thing he didnt say that, because 1) they wouldnt have published it and 2) coming off as a fucking idiot is not exaclty a good approach as a game dev.

No kidding, really?

[fCo_Pancho]

I didn't read the previous 4 pages but i hope everyone appreciated this quote from Claus as much as I did.

You don't need much skill to play most of them - mainly, you need time - and you too can own the Golden Platemail of Awesome.If that doesn't sum up WarCrap and all the others, and separate them from Darkfall, I don't know what will.

[GandalfPl]

Topic: Are Online Worlds Too Complex?
Within the online world community, there are both developers and players who feel that, as a generalization, the games tend to be too complex, over-intellectualized and over-designed.

And those people should be dealt with a layer method. Layer of ppl, layer of dirt, layer of ppl, layer of dirt...those people are reason why games are dumb, simple, lacking of any depth and every one is the same tasteless hamburger.

[LanMandragon]

I actually laughed at it. That summed up my WOW experience.

People in guild posting their items going omg look at this this just dropped omg omg omg.

Wtf do I care. Its pixels.

Now, omg omg they burned my city to the ground.

Thats fun.

[DreadNaught]

Agree with Claus, what he says, to me just sounds like everything wow isn't and it'll be a relief to get a real game with some skill and thought requirment. Until then I'll just sit here killing dragons, bugs and Liches.

[Lionking1Cyan]

That's what i wanted to read!!

[daedalaho]

Heh. It seems the Aventurine/Darkfall Staff are trying to stop the big game designers from turning MMOs in to a dark, boring, money grubbing, corporate monotony.

Disney probably thinks we're all satanists.

[Skiptag]

W00t! go claus!!

[Leric]

i agree with claus but still i wouldn't classify that as an update........


:P ohh well next one aughta be HAWT

[KillSwitch]

Good stuff..

[Khantrah]

Golden Platemail of Awesome

Gahahah, this made me smile.


Oh, and everyone shut the fuck up about your "updates". If you can't understand how the lead game designer's design philosphy will impact the game you're whining about updates for, I don't know what to tell you.

[KillSwitch]

I dont think they need to buy time. The simple fact is they could leave us updateless and nothing is going to happen. They said beta before the end of the year so /tipglass and "heres to waiting"


I agree totaly. And I feel that they want to drive us NUTs wainting for it.. In fact I need a Psyc now.! :ohno:

[Tarshal]

Disney probably thinks we're all satanists.

What, you mean thats a bad thing? o.O

[End Dream]

all true...

[Fluffier]

One of the best updates lately, you know why?

Claus confirmed to be as sane and hardcore as ever. Which is great.
Go darkfall!

[ObsiDian_Osiris]

meh

[Killuminati]

This is an update?

[LanMandragon]

This is an update?

A lot of people felt it was a great update.