back in 2006, 3 Gunatanamo inmates were lynched by the guards and it was covered up

[Marrik]

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

late in the night of June 9, 2006, 3 inmates at Guantanamo Bay detention center were murdered by guards, and it was then covered up by both the staff there, and also by NCIS it looks like.

none of the 3 men, Salah Ahmed Al-Salami (37), Mani Shaman Al-Utaybi (30), and Yasser Talal Al-Zahrani (22, imprisoned at Guantanamo since he was 17) , had been charged with a crime. they were being held in alpha Block, the block where the most troublesome or high-value prisoners are kept.

the next day after the men were supposedly found hanging in their cells, all reporters at Guantanamo were asked to leave, and Rear Admiral Harry Harris (commander of Guantanamo) declared the deaths to be suicides.


2 years later, an NCIS investigation backed up his claim, but the Pentagon declined to make that report public until they were pressed repeatedly on it.

they eventually released a heavily censored copy of the report, and once the students and faculty at Seton Hall University in New Jersey started cross referencing and deciphering it, it became obvious why: the official story of how they died was, frankly, preposterous bullshit. heres what they say happened.

according to NCIS, each prisoner made a noose from torn sheets and tshirts, tied it to the top of their 8 foot high cage, tied their own hands behind their backs (and one them also had his feet tied), stuffed rags down their own throats, then climbed up on top of their washbasin, slipped their heads in the noose, and jumped off to slowly strangle.

also, they apparently did all this simultaneously, even though they were not being held near each other.


as for how the men were supposedly able to do all of this, when the patrolling guards are supposed to be looking in on each prisoner every 10 minutes? NCIS says they hung sheets or blankets to hide their activities and shaped more sheets and pillows to look like bodies sleeping in their beds.


what they did NOT explain, was how the prisoners were supposed to have gotten all this extra fabric, and why the guards didnt do something about such blatant rule breaking. they also didnt explain how the men were hanging for 2 hours without being noticed by the guards, or why the guards were never disciplined.


furthermore, the men had cloth masks strapped to their faces, apparently to stop them from spitting the rags out, and at least one of them had been beaten up (NCIS claims that a paramedic accidentally busted his teeth out when he was pulling open his mouth to do CPR. nevermind that he was already fucking rigor mortised by then).


that is the official story as told by NCIS and reiterated by the Justice Department and State Department.


but now, 4 members of the Military Intelligence unit assigned to guard Camp Delta have released a dramatically different, and less outlandish, story about what happened that night. they also revealed the existence of a Blacksite at Guantanamo, which they referred to as "Camp No" (for "No, it does not exist")


when Sgt. Joe Hickamn and his friend Specialist Tony Davila arrived at Guantanamo in March 2006, the California National Guardsmen they were relieving told them about some of the peculiarities of Guantanamo.


the most significant of these was an unnamed and officially unacknowledged compound (Camp No) nestled out of sight between two plateaus about a mile north of Camp Delta, just outside Camp America’s perimeter. one day while on patrol, Hickman and Davila got close enough to the compound to take a look. it seemed unremarkable, only it had no guard towers and was surrounded by concertina wire.

there did not seem to be any activity inside the wire, but it looked large enough to hold about 80 prisoners, and they could see a building identical to the interrogation centers at the other camps.


the Guardsmen told Hickman that the place "doesn't exist", and although Hickman was often put in charge of security for amp America, he was never briefed about it. he and Davila continued to go near it on patrol though, and Hickman claims he once heard screams coming from the camp.


they also found that there were odd exceptions to their duties.


for instance, whenever a vehicle enters or exits Camp Delta, it must be searched first by the guards, and the people have to be signed in. that is, all vehicles but one, a white van called the "Paddy Wagon" that was used to transport heavily manacled prisoners one at a time into and out of Camp Delta.


even though he wasnt allowed to search it, Hickman says he usually watched it closely from his guard tower, and it frequently took an unexpected route. when it reached the first intersection, instead of going right towards another camp or the building where the prisoners meet their lawyers, it went left. theres only 2 things to the left: the beach, and Camp No.


the night of the 3 killings, Hickman was on duty as Sergeant of the guard for Camp America's perimeter security.


shortly after beginning his shift at 6 PM, Hickman saw the Paddy Wagon parked near Camp 1, which is where Alpha block is located. soon after, he saw 2 guards come out escoting a prisoner, who they put in the back and drove off in the direction of Camp No.


about 20 minutes later, which is how long a round trip to Camp No and back takes, the van returned and picked up another prisoner from Camp 1. 20 more minutes later, the van returned yet again and picked up a 3rd prisoner from Camp 1.


Hickman, his curiosity piqued, left his guard tower and decided to follow the van to find out for sure where it was going, and verified that it was in fact taking the prisoners to Camp No. all 3 prisoners would have arrived there before 8 PM.


Hickman then returned to his post and saw nothing more of note until 11:30 PM, when the van returned again. this time, the guards did not get out to enter Camp 1. instead, they backed the van up to the medical clinic, as if to unload something.


at 11:45 PM, Army Specialist Christopher Penvose was preparing for his shift when he was approached by a senior Navy NCO who wore no nametag (as per SOP) and whom he described as "extremely agitated". the NCO told Pervose to go to the mess hall at Camp Delta, find a senior female petty officer eating there, and tell her a specific code word.


Pervose did as ordered, and upon hearing the word the petty officer immediately jumped up and ran out of the mess hall. 30 minutes later, as Hickman and Pervose both recall, the whole camp suddenly "lit up" (flood lights turned on, and a flurry of activity)


Hickman headed for the clinic, which seemed to be the epicenter of the commotion. he asked a distraught corpsman what was going on, and she told him that 3 prisoners had been asphyxiated by having rags forced down their throats.


Hickman then asked the rest of his guards if they had noticed anything unusual that night, and Pervose told him that from his post he had a clear view of the alley connecting Camp 1 and the clinic, and that there had been no bodies transported from Camp 1 to the clinic at any time that night.


based on what happened this same night to another prisoner, Shaker Aamer (42), it seems likely that the 3 dead prisoners were being tortured for information, and it went a little too far.


Aamer had been in solitary confinement ever since he failed to negotiate and end to the hunger strike among prisoners back in 2005. this is what happened to him as described by him to his lawyer.

On June 9th, 2006, [Aamer] was beaten for two and a half hours straight. Seven naval military police participated in his beating. Mr. Aamer stated he had refused to provide a retina scan and fingerprints. He reported to me that he was strapped to a chair, fully restrained at the head, arms and legs. The MPs inflicted so much pain, Mr. Aamer said he thought he was going to die. The MPs pressed on pressure points all over his body: his temples, just under his jawline, in the hollow beneath his ears. They choked him. They bent his nose repeatedly so hard to the side he thought it would break. They pinched his thighs and feet constantly. They gouged his eyes. They held his eyes open and shined a mag-lite in them for minutes on end, generating intense heat. They bent his fingers until he screamed. When he screamed, they cut off his airway, then put a mask on him so he could not cry out.


the morning after the killings, Colonel Bumgarner called a meeting at the open-air theater in Camp America. Bumgarner told the assembled troops that "you all know" 3 prisoners in Alpha Block had committed suicide by swallowing rags and choking themselves. then, he informed that the media would be reporting that they had committed suicide by hanging themselves, and that they were NOT to correct this under any circumstances.

then he reminded them that all of their communications with the outside world were being monitored, and dismissed them.



id have copy+pasted the original story too like usual but its really fucking long

[MattMystrieo]

Torture at Guantanamo covered up by the U.S??!! What the hell!!!!!!

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Im heartbroken... really I am.


While its fucked up that these guards got away with it.. and I hope they find out who did it and prosecute them.. its purely based on principle.

Cuz I sure as fuck dont give a crap about any of the inmates at Gitmo. There isnt a person in that block who wouldnt jump at the chance to slit the throat of any westerner.

[Marrik]

nobody is ever going to be prosecuted, not a chance.


the Justice Department and State Department already endorsed the obvious lie, and besides Obama is too busy "looking forward".

[Black Thunder]

Torture at Guantanamo covered up by the U.S??!! What the hell!!!!!!

this is an outrage

[Erratic]

1 in 5 GITMO detainees return to extremest activities after being released.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/07/nation/la-na-guantanamo-repeaters7-2010jan07

Yeah closing GITMO was a great idea...

[Abaratican]

1 in 5 GITMO detainees return to extremest activities after being released.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/07/nation/la-na-guantanamo-repeaters7-2010jan07

Yeah closing GITMO was a great idea...

If I was in a prison as fucking retardedly implemented and endorsed by the government as gitmo, even if I was 100% innocent and had never done a thing, I'd probably join the biggest terrorist group and fucking go September 11th on their asses. Want to torture me for years? When I can, I'll fuck you for it.

Them "returning" to extremist activities is meaningless.

[Villageninja]

If I was in a prison as fucking retardedly implemented and endorsed by the government as gitmo, even if I was 100% innocent and had never done a thing, I'd probably join the biggest terrorist group and fucking go September 11th on their asses. Want to torture me for years? When I can, I'll fuck you for it.

Them "returning" to extremist activities is meaningless.

Right, as opposed to 67% recidivism rate for normal prisons right? Fuck off noob, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Bissen]

There isnt a person in that block who wouldnt jump at the chance to slit the throat of any westerner.

After being illegally imprisoned and tortured for years on end, there isn't...

[Rachsucht]

After being illegally imprisoned and tortured for years on end, there isn't...

So, the best solution would be to summarily execute all current inmates.

[gold]

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

late in the night of June 9, 2006, 3 inmates at Guantanamo Bay detention center were murdered by guards, and it was then covered up by both the staff there, and also by NCIS it looks like.

none of the 3 men, Salah Ahmed Al-Salami (37), Mani Shaman Al-Utaybi (30), and Yasser Talal Al-Zahrani (22, imprisoned at Guantanamo since he was 17) , had been charged with a crime. they were being held in alpha Block, the block where the most troublesome or high-value prisoners are kept.

the next day after the men were supposedly found hanging in their cells, all reporters at Guantanamo were asked to leave, and Rear Admiral Harry Harris (commander of Guantanamo) declared the deaths to be suicides.


2 years later, an NCIS investigation backed up his claim, but the Pentagon declined to make that report public until they were pressed repeatedly on it.

they eventually released a heavily censored copy of the report, and once the students and faculty at Seton Hall University in New Jersey started cross referencing and deciphering it, it became obvious why: the official story of how they died was, frankly, preposterous bullshit. heres what they say happened.

according to NCIS, each prisoner made a noose from torn sheets and tshirts, tied it to the top of their 8 foot high cage, tied their own hands behind their backs (and one them also had his feet tied), stuffed rags down their own throats, then climbed up on top of their washbasin, slipped their heads in the noose, and jumped off to slowly strangle.

also, they apparently did all this simultaneously, even though they were not being held near each other.


as for how the men were supposedly able to do all of this, when the patrolling guards are supposed to be looking in on each prisoner every 10 minutes? NCIS says they hung sheets or blankets to hide their activities and shaped more sheets and pillows to look like bodies sleeping in their beds.


what they did NOT explain, was how the prisoners were supposed to have gotten all this extra fabric, and why the guards didnt do something about such blatant rule breaking. they also didnt explain how the men were hanging for 2 hours without being noticed by the guards, or why the guards were never disciplined.


furthermore, the men had cloth masks strapped to their faces, apparently to stop them from spitting the rags out, and at least one of them had been beaten up (NCIS claims that a paramedic accidentally busted his teeth out when he was pulling open his mouth to do CPR. nevermind that he was already fucking rigor mortised by then).


that is the official story as told by NCIS and reiterated by the Justice Department and State Department.


but now, 4 members of the Military Intelligence unit assigned to guard Camp Delta have released a dramatically different, and less outlandish, story about what happened that night. they also revealed the existence of a Blacksite at Guantanamo, which they referred to as "Camp No" (for "No, it does not exist")


when Sgt. Joe Hickamn and his friend Specialist Tony Davila arrived at Guantanamo in March 2006, the California National Guardsmen they were relieving told them about some of the peculiarities of Guantanamo.


the most significant of these was an unnamed and officially unacknowledged compound (Camp No) nestled out of sight between two plateaus about a mile north of Camp Delta, just outside Camp America’s perimeter. one day while on patrol, Hickman and Davila got close enough to the compound to take a look. it seemed unremarkable, only it had no guard towers and was surrounded by concertina wire.

there did not seem to be any activity inside the wire, but it looked large enough to hold about 80 prisoners, and they could see a building identical to the interrogation centers at the other camps.


the Guardsmen told Hickman that the place "doesn't exist", and although Hickman was often put in charge of security for amp America, he was never briefed about it. he and Davila continued to go near it on patrol though, and Hickman claims he once heard screams coming from the camp.


they also found that there were odd exceptions to their duties.


for instance, whenever a vehicle enters or exits Camp Delta, it must be searched first by the guards, and the people have to be signed in. that is, all vehicles but one, a white van called the "Paddy Wagon" that was used to transport heavily manacled prisoners one at a time into and out of Camp Delta.


even though he wasnt allowed to search it, Hickman says he usually watched it closely from his guard tower, and it frequently took an unexpected route. when it reached the first intersection, instead of going right towards another camp or the building where the prisoners meet their lawyers, it went left. theres only 2 things to the left: the beach, and Camp No.


the night of the 3 killings, Hickman was on duty as Sergeant of the guard for Camp America's perimeter security.


shortly after beginning his shift at 6 PM, Hickman saw the Paddy Wagon parked near Camp 1, which is where Alpha block is located. soon after, he saw 2 guards come out escoting a prisoner, who they put in the back and drove off in the direction of Camp No.


about 20 minutes later, which is how long a round trip to Camp No and back takes, the van returned and picked up another prisoner from Camp 1. 20 more minutes later, the van returned yet again and picked up a 3rd prisoner from Camp 1.


Hickman, his curiosity piqued, left his guard tower and decided to follow the van to find out for sure where it was going, and verified that it was in fact taking the prisoners to Camp No. all 3 prisoners would have arrived there before 8 PM.


Hickman then returned to his post and saw nothing more of note until 11:30 PM, when the van returned again. this time, the guards did not get out to enter Camp 1. instead, they backed the van up to the medical clinic, as if to unload something.


at 11:45 PM, Army Specialist Christopher Penvose was preparing for his shift when he was approached by a senior Navy NCO who wore no nametag (as per SOP) and whom he described as "extremely agitated". the NCO told Pervose to go to the mess hall at Camp Delta, find a senior female petty officer eating there, and tell her a specific code word.


Pervose did as ordered, and upon hearing the word the petty officer immediately jumped up and ran out of the mess hall. 30 minutes later, as Hickman and Pervose both recall, the whole camp suddenly "lit up" (flood lights turned on, and a flurry of activity)


Hickman headed for the clinic, which seemed to be the epicenter of the commotion. he asked a distraught corpsman what was going on, and she told him that 3 prisoners had been asphyxiated by having rags forced down their throats.


Hickman then asked the rest of his guards if they had noticed anything unusual that night, and Pervose told him that from his post he had a clear view of the alley connecting Camp 1 and the clinic, and that there had been no bodies transported from Camp 1 to the clinic at any time that night.


based on what happened this same night to another prisoner, Shaker Aamer (42), it seems likely that the 3 dead prisoners were being tortured for information, and it went a little too far.


Aamer had been in solitary confinement ever since he failed to negotiate and end to the hunger strike among prisoners back in 2005. this is what happened to him as described by him to his lawyer.




the morning after the killings, Colonel Bumgarner called a meeting at the open-air theater in Camp America. Bumgarner told the assembled troops that "you all know" 3 prisoners in Alpha Block had committed suicide by swallowing rags and choking themselves. then, he informed that the media would be reporting that they had committed suicide by hanging themselves, and that they were NOT to correct this under any circumstances.

then he reminded them that all of their communications with the outside world were being monitored, and dismissed them.



id have copy+pasted the original story too like usual but its really fucking long


war is war.

[Rachsucht]

war is war.

I'm glad you quoted the entire wall of text again, we should all do this when adding something to the original post.

[Blixa]

Can't be Gibbs would never cover something like that up. He was an honest marine and he loves his country!!!1

[Abaratican]

So, the best solution would be to summarily execute all current inmates.

Or to summarily execute those involved in their illegal keeping, so they already have their vengeance.

[Black Thunder]

Or to summarily execute those involved in their illegal keeping, so they already have their vengeance.

i know obama's first term isn't going well but they still won't let us execute him bro

[Ziegler]

Those guys at gitmo should be in trouble...


for not going far enough.

[nate4449]

Those guys at gitmo should be in trouble...


for not going far enough.

I know, I mean, they still had their fingers and toes other appendages intact. Wtf?

l2torture, imo.

[The Cougar]

Never thought I'd be outraged on the behalf of probable terrorists.

[StrawberryClock]

Judging by how low the recidivism rate is at the super-ultra high security prison, I say we should implement this across America's highest security prisons.

Fuck Joe Arpaio and his methods, this definitely kicks ass.

[mcap]

You know, whether or not it happened anything like that article suggests...

That article was fucking horrible. It was so disgustingly skewed and suggestive that there is no possible way to form an unbiased opinion based on that alone. There wasn't a single paragraph that didn't drip with the insinuation that it was a giant cover up. Add that to a complete lack of references or anything else that would indicate the guy didn't just make up half the shit and you have a 10-page-long piece of long-winded shit. I can't believe I managed to read it, even being bored as all hell at work.

Again, I don't know (or care honestly) if they're covering something up. That article was about as unbiased and reliable as an episode of "The O'Reilly Factor". Find some new sources, that magazine sucks.

[Ziegler]

I know, I mean, they still had their fingers and toes other appendages intact. Wtf?

l2torture, imo.

Yeah, I suggest they read the quran or talk to some muslim priests, they know how to properly torture.

[Razel]

regardless what anyone says, there is no official declaration of war by congress so anything done to these 'prisioners' is illegal. Just like war tribunals are illegal.

cry all ya wish, but this is why wars need to be declared by the congress. a 'war on poverty', terrorists or drugs dont make it an official war. Everyone tried in war tribunals was... illegal.


should we just start digging mass graves now and shooting people in the head or shoving them into furnaces based on someones religion? nah, thats been tried before.

death to all jews now? uh i mean muslims? what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The simple fact is if someone is guilty of something it can be proven in a court of law and anyone who is accused has a right.... to defend themselves. A right is not a priviledge.

What happens when YOU are accused of being a terrorist when you simply voice your opinion?

[StrawberryClock]

Yeah, I suggest they read the quran or talk to some muslim priests, they know how to properly torture.

You know, I think our methods are pretty good.

Stoning and shit as well as mass murdering women of children.

[StainlessSteelRat]

regardless what anyone says, there is no official declaration of war by congress so anything done to these 'prisioners' is illegal. Just like war tribunals are illegal.

cry all ya wish, but this is why wars need to be declared by the congress. a 'war on poverty', terrorists or drugs dont make it an official war. Everyone tried in war tribunals was... illegal.

The Conventions apply to all cases of armed conflict between two or more signatory nations, even in the absence of a declaration of war.

FYI

[Erratic]

regardless what anyone says, there is no official declaration of war by congress so anything done to these 'prisioners' is illegal. Just like war tribunals are illegal.


Wrong... The Authorization for Military Use was overwhelmingly confirmed by congress on September 18th 2001. The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting

It gave the president the power to basically do what he seems fit, and yes it's that broad as I will illustrate bellow...

"[it is] necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad... the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States...

(a) the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/sjres23.es.html

So stfu with your hippy propaganda... The War was never illegal and Bush never overstepped his bounds, rather he was GIVEN ALL of the power of America's military and brute force to use at HIS disposal, when HE saw fit, and it was done so by CONGRESS, the very officials WE the people elected...

[StainlessSteelRat]

Wrong... The Authorization for Military Use was overwhelmingly confirmed by congress on September 18th 2001. The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting

It gave the president the power to basically do what he seems fit, and yes it's that broad as I will illustrate bellow...

"[it is] necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad... the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States...

(a) the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/sjres23.es.html

Actually, he's right about the war not being declared. This whole 'authorized use of force' thing is something of a gray area. Which is not to say that it hasn't, in some manner, been justified or legitimized at some point; doesn't necessarily make it legit to a Constitutionalist.

1 Nay <-----Anyone know of that was good ole RP?

So stfu with your hippy propaganda... The War was never illegal and Bush never overstepped his bounds, rather he was GIVEN ALL of the power of America's military and brute force to use at HIS disposal, when HE saw fit, and it was done so by CONGRESS, the very officials WE the people elected...

FFR - Congress can not do whatever it wants. Duly elected or not.

[Erratic]

Actually, he's right about the war not being declared. This whole 'authorized use of force' thing is something of a gray area. Which is not to say that it hasn't, in some manner, been justified or legitimized at some point; doesn't necessarily make it legit to a Constitutionalist.

1 Nay <-----Anyone know of that was good ole RP?



FFR - Congress can not do whatever it wants. Duly elected or not.
Regardless of whether it makes it legit, doesn't negate the fact that the president operated under the power that congress gave to him. The fact that they gave him nearly unchecked power is not a fault of his own rather the representatives that we elected.

the 1 nay btw, was Barbara Lee - D-CA

[Napalm_Enema]

Who cares.

If hooking a 'maybe terrorist' up to a car battery saves me down the road, I only have two things to say: red is positive, black is negative.

[Ziegler]

Who cares.

If hooking a 'maybe terrorist' up to a car battery saves me down the road, I only have two things to say: right nut positive, left nut is negative.

...fixed that for ya. :sly:

[StrawberryClock]

Who cares.

If hooking a 'maybe terrorist' up to a car battery saves me down the road, I only have two things to say: red is positive, black is negative.

I know right.

If killing a "maybe murderer" saves me down the road, who cares if they die amirite?

[Black Thunder]

Who cares.

If hooking a 'maybe terrorist' up to a car battery saves me down the road, I only have two things to say: red is positive, black is negative.

if you were the maybe terrorist you wouldn't say that

[Erratic]

if you were the maybe terrorist you wouldn't say that

not many of us associate with terrorists or put ourselves in a position that would lead to someone thinking we might be a terrorist...

[Kusghuul]

not many of us associate with terrorists or put ourselves in a position that would lead to someone thinking we might be a terrorist...

Half of Forumfall's Libertarians and probably an Anon or two here.

[Black Thunder]

not many of us associate with terrorists or put ourselves in a position that would lead to someone thinking we might be a terrorist...

orly

even if you were right, which you're not, then it wouldn't matter, because the point is that you wouldn't be whistling the same tune if you were in a secret prison for no good reason with no rights.

Half of Forumfall's Libertarians and probably an Anon or two here.

[Erratic]

orly

even if you were right, which you're not, then it wouldn't matter, because the point is that you wouldn't be whistling the same tune if you were in a secret prison for no good reason with no rights.

No i'm 100% positive I or many of us here will NEVER EVER be suspected of having links to terrorism to the EXTENT that we are sent to GITMO or a similar camp... Even if something I did resulted in questioning from the FED's, it would quickly lead to my release not my being sent to GITMO. You don't get sent there on accident.

Do bad things happen to innocent people, sure, but generally speaking bad people are in GITMO who don't deserve our sympathy and certainly not our rights...

[Black Thunder]

No i'm 100% positive I or many of us here will NEVER EVER be suspected of having links to terrorism to the EXTENT that we are sent to GITMO or a similar camp... Even if something I did resulted in questioning from the FED's, it would quickly lead to my release not my being sent to GITMO. You don't get sent there on accident.

Do bad things happen to innocent people, sure, but generally speaking bad people are in GITMO who don't deserve our sympathy and certainly not our rights...

you didn't say "to the extent of being sent to GITMO or a similar camp" before. you can feel free to delude yourself to be positive of that, but i'd turn your attention to the many currently empty FEMA prison camps that speckle our country. google it and look into it.

you can say they end up there because they're bad, but that's just your useless and incorrect opinion. they're guilty before proven innocent with no speedy trial, they have no real rights, little sympathy from the american people, and if you think that's good because you think you can take the government's word at it that they're evil terrorists, well, you're crazy to believe anything the government says.

and when a lot of innocent americans are, when the time comes, being put in 'similar camps' (the FEMA camps I mentioned,) are you going to take their word that the activists, authors, friends, neighbours and everyone that gets sent off to these camps were actually secretly evil terrorists? maybe when you get sent off you'll realize that they don't just put violent threats in secret camps. or maybe you'll just realize that you too, were actually an evil terrorist- and didn't even know it.

and america will be much safer. the end.

</drug-fueled e-rampage>

[Gloomrender]

I saw a show about Gitmo. A lot of the prisoners that wound up there were turned in for rewards that the military issued for terrorists, by the local communities, which were often unscrupulously exploitative in their selection of just who. They would turn in innocent neighbors/undesirables that they didn't like for whatever reason to make a buck. It's unknown just how many got in there this way, but It's thought to be a large portion of the population.

Food for thought.


Also I think it would be pretty easy to set up an Arab American just to get some torture fun on down at Gitmo. Or set up a libertarian or any other non-mainstream group, and send them to any secret prison of choice.

Also food for thought.

[Ziegler]

You mean the FEMA death camps that Glenn Beck even said was hogwash?
Those camps? :lmao:


Oh...and today marks yet another FAILURE for Obama....

Today was the day GITMO was supposed to be closed................how's that hope and change?

And spare me the innocent in Gitmo....there might be a couple out of the couple hundred left, but great majority of them....are enemies and should be summarily executed on the battlefield instead of taken prisoner.

[Napalm_Enema]

if you were the maybe terrorist you wouldn't say that

You know what? I wouldn't be 'mistaken' for a terrorist in the first place. I don't throw rocks at tanks, make bomb vests or participate in death threats or other violent acts.

It reminds me of that bit by Chris Rock - 'People are upset about the LAPD carrying automatic weapons now... If you are worried about them carrying automatic weapons YOU ARE IN THE WRONG LINE OF WORK'.

They aren't just snatching innocent people off the streets and spending all this money to incarcerate them. They are pulling in known terrorists or people that are tied to terrorist cells. I think they should do whatever they need to / want to in order to extract information from these people.

Why not? They would do the same or worse to us given the opportunity.

[jonyak]

if you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn;t be afraid of 24 hour surveillance and a police state... right??

[Ziegler]

if you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn;t be afraid of 24 hour surveillance and a police state... right??

surveillance...no. But I have no quip with police being allowed to be as heavily armed as I am. (which means I disagree with them having automatic weapons if I cant as easily.)

[Marrik]

not many of us associate with terrorists or put ourselves in a position that would lead to someone thinking we might be a terrorist...

yeah we were smart enough not to put ourselves in positions like being born in Afghanistan

[Black Thunder]

You mean the FEMA death camps that Glenn Beck even said was hogwash?

uh, yeah. and why would I care what a shill from Fox News says when the same shadowy overlords that created these camps have control over the mainstream media? and Faux News is about as mainstream a media entity as they come. :p

And spare me the innocent in Gitmo....there might be a couple out of the couple hundred left, but great majority of them....are enemies and should be summarily executed on the battlefield instead of taken prisoner

how you know this is amazing. like I said, I wonder if you'll think the same thing when people you know are hauled off.

You know what? I wouldn't be 'mistaken' for a terrorist in the first place. I don't throw rocks at tanks, make bomb vests or participate in death threats or other violent acts.

eventually in America it'll be political enemies- activists, journalists, independent politicians, reporters, authors, etc. maybe you'll fall into that category.

but anyway, even if they are hauling these foreigners off to prison camps to be indefinitely incarcerated with no real rights for reasons such as throwing rocks, making bomb vests or making death threats, you think perhaps there's a reason beyond them being evil terrorists that they're doing these things? invading their country without due reason perhaps? if a foreign power suddenly invaded the US many citizens would rise up and do whatever it took to get them out.

let me rephrase: its something like a jew in early nazi germany saying they won't be confused with a communist.

surveillance...no. But I have no quip with police being allowed to be as heavily armed as I am. (which means I disagree with them having automatic weapons if I cant as easily.)

yeah, let them place 24/7 surveillance everywhere they want- I mean, you've got nothing to hide unless you're an evil terrorist right? I guess things like privacy are needless in this new age of the war on terrorism. (a rare set of ideals- if you ever watched V for Vendetta you'd understand the concept that ideas are bulletproof. you can't declare a war on an idea with any hopes to ever win. its why the "war on terrorism" is so ingenious- it is infinite and fundamentally can never be won, so the shadowy overlords can exploit its existence to their purposes essentially forever.

[Razel]

Regardless of whether it makes it legit, doesn't negate the fact that the president operated under the power that congress gave to him. The fact that they gave him nearly unchecked power is not a fault of his own rather the representatives that we elected.

the 1 nay btw, was Barbara Lee - D-CA

dont matter if congress give him a pony for christmas, every person has natural god given rights which cannot be taken away. If someone is guilty of something then let it be proved..... if they cannot prove it, release them.

there is no grey area regardless of any illegal 'law' which is signed in the middle of the night.

as it stands the 'laws' have changed under bush and continued with obama which strips people of their freedoms and has trampled all over ones rights.

one should try to learn from history....

if i call the fbi for example and say my neighbor is a 'terrorist' cuz he thinks obama is whatever.... should we lock him up without a trial too, or jsut shoot him in the head or shove him in a furnace?

one shouldnt follow leaders blindly off a cliff.

[jonyak]

every person has natural god given rights which cannot be taken away.

what if you don't beleive in god?

[Razel]

what if you don't beleive in god?

thats your choice.... do you believe you have any rights at all? If so where do they derive from? Did obama give you your rights or freedoms?

[jonyak]

thats your choice.... do you believe you have any rights at all? If so where do they derive from? Did obama give you your rights or freedoms?

there are no such thing as rights.

there are privledges afforded to you by where you live. they can and will be taken away.

[Razel]

there are no such thing as rights.

there are privledges afforded to you by where you live. they can and will be taken away.

then you deserve whatever you get, or more accurately, taken away from you.

if you give up your liberty in order to feel safe, you deserve neither.


Have you ever been to dachau? That was a german concentration camp for jews. Know that the sign on the entrance to the camp says? Work shall set you free.

i say, when you no longer fear, youre completely free.

if you choose to be a slave.... that is.... your choice.... I've just not met many in my lifetime that chooses to be a slave asking for more whippings. Maybe its a canadian thing?

[StainlessSteelRat]

not many of us associate with terrorists or put ourselves in a position that would lead to someone thinking we might be a terrorist...

No i'm 100% positive I or many of us here will NEVER EVER be suspected of having links to terrorism to the EXTENT that we are sent to GITMO or a similar camp...

You know what? I wouldn't be 'mistaken' for a terrorist in the first place. I don't throw rocks at tanks, make bomb vests or participate in death threats or other violent acts.

Just shoot yourselves. I'd ask you to stop voting but how could I be sure?

dont matter if congress give him a pony for christmas, every person has natural god given rights which cannot be taken away. If someone is guilty of something then let it be proved..... if they cannot prove it, release them.

there is no grey area regardless of any illegal 'law' which is signed in the middle of the night.

as it stands the 'laws' have changed under bush and continued with obama which strips people of their freedoms and has trampled all over ones rights.

one should try to learn from history....

if i call the fbi for example and say my neighbor is a 'terrorist' cuz he thinks obama is whatever.... should we lock him up without a trial too, or jsut shoot him in the head or shove him in a furnace?

one shouldnt follow leaders blindly off a cliff.

You are lumping everyone in GITMO into one category. That is not possible.

Where there IS gray area is the difference between civilians and PoWs. Both are defined, neither covers what the Bush admin decided to call 'enemy combatants'. Regardless, holding combatants at GITMO is perfectly within international law. No matter what a military tribunal final decides regarding their status, they can be held as PoWs until that decision is made.

These guys were not arrest in the US. They all originate from the conflict areas which means the Geneva Conventions apply. (Which only means that the detentions are legit insofar as the apprehensions were justified.)

Basically, don't throw the baby out w/ the bath water. If certain prisoners do not belong in prison; get them out. You don't close the prison and let everyone out.

[jonyak]

then you deserve whatever you get, or more accurately, taken away from you.

if you give up your liberty in order to feel safe, you deserve neither.


Have you ever been to dachau? That was a german concentration camp for jews. Know that the sign on the entrance to the camp says? Work shall set you free.

i say, when you no longer fear, youre completely free.

if you choose to be a slave.... that is.... your choice.... I've just not met many in my lifetime that chooses to be a slave asking for more whippings. Maybe its a canadian thing?

you have totaly made up your own argument out of no argument. I never stated how I felt about what I said nor that I want to be a slave.

I simply stated what is true.

you can go on making strawman arguments all day for all I care.

[Darwoth]

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

late in the night of June 9, 2006, 3 inmates at Guantanamo Bay detention center were murdered by guards, and it was then covered up by both the staff there, and also by NCIS it looks like.

none of the 3 men, Salah Ahmed Al-Salami (37), Mani Shaman Al-Utaybi (30), and Yasser Talal Al-Zahrani (22, imprisoned at Guantanamo since he was 17) , had been charged with a crime. they were being held in alpha Block, the block where the most troublesome or high-value prisoners are kept.

the next day after the men were supposedly found hanging in their cells, all reporters at Guantanamo were asked to leave, and Rear Admiral Harry Harris (commander of Guantanamo) declared the deaths to be suicides.


2 years later, an NCIS investigation backed up his claim, but the Pentagon declined to make that report public until they were pressed repeatedly on it.

they eventually released a heavily censored copy of the report, and once the students and faculty at Seton Hall University in New Jersey started cross referencing and deciphering it, it became obvious why: the official story of how they died was, frankly, preposterous bullshit. heres what they say happened.

according to NCIS, each prisoner made a noose from torn sheets and tshirts, tied it to the top of their 8 foot high cage, tied their own hands behind their backs (and one them also had his feet tied), stuffed rags down their own throats, then climbed up on top of their washbasin, slipped their heads in the noose, and jumped off to slowly strangle.

also, they apparently did all this simultaneously, even though they were not being held near each other.


as for how the men were supposedly able to do all of this, when the patrolling guards are supposed to be looking in on each prisoner every 10 minutes? NCIS says they hung sheets or blankets to hide their activities and shaped more sheets and pillows to look like bodies sleeping in their beds.


what they did NOT explain, was how the prisoners were supposed to have gotten all this extra fabric, and why the guards didnt do something about such blatant rule breaking. they also didnt explain how the men were hanging for 2 hours without being noticed by the guards, or why the guards were never disciplined.


furthermore, the men had cloth masks strapped to their faces, apparently to stop them from spitting the rags out, and at least one of them had been beaten up (NCIS claims that a paramedic accidentally busted his teeth out when he was pulling open his mouth to do CPR. nevermind that he was already fucking rigor mortised by then).


that is the official story as told by NCIS and reiterated by the Justice Department and State Department.


but now, 4 members of the Military Intelligence unit assigned to guard Camp Delta have released a dramatically different, and less outlandish, story about what happened that night. they also revealed the existence of a Blacksite at Guantanamo, which they referred to as "Camp No" (for "No, it does not exist")


when Sgt. Joe Hickamn and his friend Specialist Tony Davila arrived at Guantanamo in March 2006, the California National Guardsmen they were relieving told them about some of the peculiarities of Guantanamo.


the most significant of these was an unnamed and officially unacknowledged compound (Camp No) nestled out of sight between two plateaus about a mile north of Camp Delta, just outside Camp America’s perimeter. one day while on patrol, Hickman and Davila got close enough to the compound to take a look. it seemed unremarkable, only it had no guard towers and was surrounded by concertina wire.

there did not seem to be any activity inside the wire, but it looked large enough to hold about 80 prisoners, and they could see a building identical to the interrogation centers at the other camps.


the Guardsmen told Hickman that the place "doesn't exist", and although Hickman was often put in charge of security for amp America, he was never briefed about it. he and Davila continued to go near it on patrol though, and Hickman claims he once heard screams coming from the camp.


they also found that there were odd exceptions to their duties.


for instance, whenever a vehicle enters or exits Camp Delta, it must be searched first by the guards, and the people have to be signed in. that is, all vehicles but one, a white van called the "Paddy Wagon" that was used to transport heavily manacled prisoners one at a time into and out of Camp Delta.


even though he wasnt allowed to search it, Hickman says he usually watched it closely from his guard tower, and it frequently took an unexpected route. when it reached the first intersection, instead of going right towards another camp or the building where the prisoners meet their lawyers, it went left. theres only 2 things to the left: the beach, and Camp No.


the night of the 3 killings, Hickman was on duty as Sergeant of the guard for Camp America's perimeter security.


shortly after beginning his shift at 6 PM, Hickman saw the Paddy Wagon parked near Camp 1, which is where Alpha block is located. soon after, he saw 2 guards come out escoting a prisoner, who they put in the back and drove off in the direction of Camp No.


about 20 minutes later, which is how long a round trip to Camp No and back takes, the van returned and picked up another prisoner from Camp 1. 20 more minutes later, the van returned yet again and picked up a 3rd prisoner from Camp 1.


Hickman, his curiosity piqued, left his guard tower and decided to follow the van to find out for sure where it was going, and verified that it was in fact taking the prisoners to Camp No. all 3 prisoners would have arrived there before 8 PM.


Hickman then returned to his post and saw nothing more of note until 11:30 PM, when the van returned again. this time, the guards did not get out to enter Camp 1. instead, they backed the van up to the medical clinic, as if to unload something.


at 11:45 PM, Army Specialist Christopher Penvose was preparing for his shift when he was approached by a senior Navy NCO who wore no nametag (as per SOP) and whom he described as "extremely agitated". the NCO told Pervose to go to the mess hall at Camp Delta, find a senior female petty officer eating there, and tell her a specific code word.


Pervose did as ordered, and upon hearing the word the petty officer immediately jumped up and ran out of the mess hall. 30 minutes later, as Hickman and Pervose both recall, the whole camp suddenly "lit up" (flood lights turned on, and a flurry of activity)


Hickman headed for the clinic, which seemed to be the epicenter of the commotion. he asked a distraught corpsman what was going on, and she told him that 3 prisoners had been asphyxiated by having rags forced down their throats.


Hickman then asked the rest of his guards if they had noticed anything unusual that night, and Pervose told him that from his post he had a clear view of the alley connecting Camp 1 and the clinic, and that there had been no bodies transported from Camp 1 to the clinic at any time that night.


based on what happened this same night to another prisoner, Shaker Aamer (42), it seems likely that the 3 dead prisoners were being tortured for information, and it went a little too far.


Aamer had been in solitary confinement ever since he failed to negotiate and end to the hunger strike among prisoners back in 2005. this is what happened to him as described by him to his lawyer.




the morning after the killings, Colonel Bumgarner called a meeting at the open-air theater in Camp America. Bumgarner told the assembled troops that "you all know" 3 prisoners in Alpha Block had committed suicide by swallowing rags and choking themselves. then, he informed that the media would be reporting that they had committed suicide by hanging themselves, and that they were NOT to correct this under any circumstances.

then he reminded them that all of their communications with the outside world were being monitored, and dismissed them.



id have copy+pasted the original story too like usual but its really fucking long

good, now hopefully they kill off the rest as that is the proper way to "close guantanamo"

[Razel]

Basically, don't throw the baby out w/ the bath water. If certain prisoners do not belong in prison; get them out. You don't close the prison and let everyone out.

that goes to my point. How does one ascertain whether someone 'belongs in prision' or not? Wouldnt that require some kind of hearing, court, etc where the accused can call witnesses or present evidence on his or her behalf? What if the accused was merely a innocent bystander which happened to be walking down the street in the general area of a crime?

I'm not defending 'terrorists' by any stretch of the imagination however i think people have rights to defend themselves if they are accused of something, anything...

its always good to look at things from different perspectives sooo lets try this scenario:

lets say.... china invades the u.s. and the people try to defend themselves. lets say china sets up a gitmo in .... um africa for example and sends all those who try to defend themselves from the chinese invading there. dang those hypotheticals always fuck things up dont they.

[Razel]

you have totaly made up your own argument out of no argument. I never stated how I felt about what I said nor that I want to be a slave.

I simply stated what is true.

you can go on making strawman arguments all day for all I care.

and i say youre worthless if you dont wish to stand up for yourself, and barely worth the trouble of me replying

[Razel]

you have totaly made up your own argument out of no argument. I never stated how I felt about what I said nor that I want to be a slave.

I simply stated what is true.

you can go on making strawman arguments all day for all I care.

and i say youre worthless if you dont wish to stand up for yourself, and barely worth the trouble of me replying

but then,,, canada still has a queen and an oligarchy eh...? Has slavery become comfortable?

[StainlessSteelRat]

that goes to my point. How does one ascertain whether someone 'belongs in prision' or not? Wouldnt that require some kind of hearing, court, etc where the accused can call witnesses or present evidence on his or her behalf? What if the accused was merely a innocent bystander which happened to be walking down the street in the general area of a crime?

I'm not defending 'terrorists' by any stretch of the imagination however i think people have rights to defend themselves if they are accused of something, anything...

its always good to look at things from different perspectives sooo lets try this scenario:

lets say.... china invades the u.s. and the people try to defend themselves. lets say china sets up a gitmo in .... um africa for example and sends all those who try to defend themselves from the chinese invading there. dang those hypotheticals always fuck things up dont they.

They get military tribunals per the Geneva Conventions.... They do not get civilian courts and they most certainly don't get US civilian courts.

I don't see a problem w/ your hypothetical. PoWs are detained during conflict and do not receive trials. (The military tribunals don't necessarily give you a trial; they first determine your status.) All this is per the GC.

[Razel]

They get military tribunals per the Geneva Conventions.... They do not get civilian courts and they most certainly don't get US civilian courts.

I don't see a problem w/ your hypothetical. PoWs are detained during conflict and do not receive trials. (The military tribunals don't necessarily give you a trial; they first determine your status.) All this is per the GC.

welp all i can say is, if someone invades the u.s. i'm defending myself be it 'right or wrong' in anyones eyes. Really dont care about what the rest of ya do.

[jonyak]

and i say youre worthless if you dont wish to stand up for yourself, and barely worth the trouble of me replying

but then,,, canada still has a queen and an oligarchy eh...? Has slavery become comfortable?

Where are you even getting this bullshit out of what I said.

its a reality. your gov't gives you your "rights", they can take them away.

do people in somalia have the same "god" given "rights" as you? no.


is it right? no. is it reality? yes.

and no, canada does not have a queen or an oligarchy. if you followed history you would know that.

[Razel]

Where are you even getting this bullshit out of what I said.

its a reality. your gov't gives you your "rights", they can take them away.

do people in somalia have the same "god" given "rights" as you? no.


is it right? no. is it reality? yes.

and no, canada does not have a queen or an oligarchy. if you followed history you would know that.

ah i seee...... show me where in the constituion of the united states where it says "its a reality. your gov't gives you your "rights", they can take them away." I think you'll find it says WE THE PEOPLE give the govt a priviledge to exist and that can be taken away.

i understand youre from a different country soo youre entitled to your idiocy i suppose...

[jonyak]

ah i seee...... show me where in the constituion of the united states where it says "its a reality. your gov't gives you your "rights", they can take them away." I think you'll find it says WE THE PEOPLE give the govt a priviledge to exist and that can be taken away.

i understand youre from a different country soo youre entitled to your idiocy i suppose...

you're an idiot.

[StainlessSteelRat]

Where are you even getting this bullshit out of what I said.

its a reality. your gov't gives you your "rights", they can take them away.

do people in somalia have the same "god" given "rights" as you? no.

is it right? no. is it reality? yes.

and no, canada does not have a queen or an oligarchy. if you followed history you would know that.

Actually, this is completely opposite. We have our rights. We grant our gov't certain powers. And in no way is the gov't given the power to remove our rights.

Dunno about Canuckistan, but that's how the Constitution is written. And it's the reality, for the most part, still today. Although people that share your views are doing their very best to make it the other way around. ;)

EDIT - can you demonstrate how the gov't can take away any of my rights?

[jonyak]

Actually, this is completely opposite. We have our rights. We grant our gov't certain powers. And in no way is the gov't given the power to remove our rights.

Dunno about Canuckistan, but that's how the Constitution is written. And it's the reality, for the most part, still today. Although people that share your views are doing their very best to make it the other way around. ;)

EDIT - can you demonstrate how the gov't can take away any of my rights?

listen. in your zealotry you have misunderstood my point.

its not that I beleive thats how it should be. its how it is.

you can go on and on about you precious constitution, but the fact remains, you basicaly gave your power to the gov't. they can and have done whatever they want. they have shown contempt for the citizenry that gave them power and have taken away there rights.

I don't want to take away your right, nor do I want the gov't to either.

does the patriot act ring a bell to you? how about full body scanners in airports? Kent state? conscription? war on terrorism? trying to outlaw guns?

[Razel]

listen. in your zealotry you have misunderstood my point.

its not that I beleive thats how it should be. its how it is.

you can go on and on about you precious constitution, but the fact remains, you basicaly gave your power to the gov't. they can and have done whatever they want. they have shown contempt for the citizenry that gave them power and have taken away there rights.

I don't want to take away your right, nor do I want the gov't to either.

does the patriot act ring a bell to you? how about full body scanners in airports? Kent state? conscription? war on terrorism? trying to outlaw guns?

its your perception we have given our power to the govt, and frankly the govt thinks that too, however dems and repubs and even obama will find thats not the case as they are starting to realise even as i type this.

the patriot act can be.... done away with along with the rest of the illegal stuff that was passed. it just takes a leader with a set of balls, a spine, and a shred of integrity to make it happen.

[jonyak]

its your perception we have given our power to the govt, and frankly the govt thinks that too, however dems and repubs and even obama will find thats not the case as they are starting to realise even as i type this.

the patriot act can be.... done away with along with the rest of the illegal stuff that was passed. it just takes a leader with a set of balls, a spine, and a shred of integrity to make it happen.

You think too much of your fellow countrymen.

and the last time you had a leader with balls, your own gov't assassinated him.

[Razel]

You think too much of your fellow countrymen.

and the last time you had a leader with balls, your own gov't assassinated him.

You'd be surprised at what i know... however i'm glad you have an opinion of how you think i think.

freedom, fairness, truth, and justice are more than words, they are perspectives

I've said this for years.... once people are homeless, jobless, penniless and hungry they will wake up. So i do hope it gets worse before it gets better. People need to understand pain and hunger so they dont allow it to happen again, just as they tried to do 200 years ago.

and im sure canadians will do as they always have done, nothing.

[jonyak]

You'd be surprised at what i know... however i'm glad you have an opinion of how you think i think.

freedom, fairness, truth, and justice are more than words, they are perspectives

I've said this for years.... once people are homeless, jobless, penniless and hungry they will wake up. So i do hope it gets worse before it gets better. People need to understand pain and hunger so they dont allow it to happen again, just as they tried to do 200 years ago.

and im sure canadians will do as they always have done, nothing.

I have an opinion? you made it quite clear you think americans would revolt. I say they won't, not as long as your gov't keeps them complacent.

and then you end with an insult to my country. you really are a fostering a good conversation. how very american of you.

[Razel]

I have an opinion? you made it quite clear you think americans would revolt. I say they won't, not as long as your gov't keeps them complacent.

and then you end with an insult to my country. you really are a fostering a good conversation. how very american of you.

hows the queen? see.. i care

[MattMystrieo]

hows the queen? see.. i care

Good as ever thank you.

God save her.

[Rachsucht]

god shave her.


nt

[StainlessSteelRat]

listen. in your zealotry you have misunderstood my point.

its not that I beleive thats how it should be. its how it is.

No, I understand you. I think, overall, you are wrong.

They attempt, w/ some successes but are not yet able to 'take away my rights'.

We aren't to the point you seem to think we are...yet.

[Erratic]

dont matter if congress give him a pony for christmas, every person has natural god given rights which cannot be taken away. If someone is guilty of something then let it be proved..... if they cannot prove it, release them.

there is no grey area regardless of any illegal 'law' which is signed in the middle of the night.

as it stands the 'laws' have changed under bush and continued with obama which strips people of their freedoms and has trampled all over ones rights.

one should try to learn from history....

if i call the fbi for example and say my neighbor is a 'terrorist' cuz he thinks obama is whatever.... should we lock him up without a trial too, or jsut shoot him in the head or shove him in a furnace?

one shouldnt follow leaders blindly off a cliff.
I believe all people have certain barebones rights yes, but I DO NOT believe that terrorists; who btw use children as human shields, who disguise suicide bombers as pregant women, and who plant IED's in crowded civilian markets, should have access to the same rights that US citizens have, and more specifically I DO NOT believe they should be entitled to protection under the Geneva Convention since they break many of its rules in the first place.

[StrawberryClock]

I believe all people have certain barebones rights yes, but I DO NOT believe that terrorists; who btw use children as human shields, who disguise suicide bombers as pregant women, and who plant IED's in crowded civilian markets, should have access to the same rights that US citizens have, and more specifically I DO NOT believe they should be entitled to protection under the Geneva Convention since they break many of its rules in the first place.

We can easily apply this logic to Charles Manson's family and all those crazy gangbangers or mass murderers.

Our society has its fair share of crazy people, but we determine how they are punished by those nice guidelines those guys thought of long ago somewhere.

[Erratic]

We can easily apply this logic to Charles Manson's family and all those crazy gangbangers or mass murderers.

Our society has its fair share of crazy people, but we determine how they are punished by those nice guidelines those guys thought of long ago somewhere.

because they are our citizens, we treated the uni-bomber and other domestic terrorists differently than various GITMO bombers because they are citizens of the US so the constitution applies to them. To want the US constitution to apply to foreign born terrorists is an insult to the people who fought and died to give us those laws/freedoms. This is one of the reasons you see all this uproar over Obama wanting to try terrorists in civilian courts.

[StrawberryClock]

because they are our citizens, we treated the uni-bomber and other domestic terrorists differently than various GITMO bombers because they are citizens of the US so the constitution applies to them. To want the US constitution to apply to foreign born terrorists is an insult to the people who fought and died to give us those laws/freedoms. This is one of the reasons you see all this uproar over Obama wanting to try terrorists in civilian courts.

I suppose tourists, illegal aliens, foreign criminals are not subjected to American courts either. The fact should stand that American should treat all of its detainees under the laws of its lands(this didn't apply to Gitmo because it was American controlled land not technically American soil, something the founding fathers would not have wanted.) because it is a guarantee to all those on American soil and under American sovereignty.

That is the uproar, because they want the amendments to be upheld, not your spin on things.

I suppose the founding fathers didn't envision for the U.S to have terrorists that they locked up because they didn't envision fighting and capturing terrorists while during American wars of aggression.

[StainlessSteelRat]

I suppose tourists, illegal aliens, foreign criminals are not subjected to American courts either. The fact should stand that American should treat all of its detainees under the laws of its lands(this didn't apply to Gitmo because it was American controlled land not technically American soil, something the founding fathers would not have wanted.) because it is a guarantee to all those on American soil and under American sovereignty.

American land/soil whatever should not matter. The differentiating factor should be where they were captured and that they are involved in an armed conflict w/ the US. Were any WW2 prisoners detained on US soil? Were they given trials in US courts?

Is the Japanese fighter pilot that gets shot down and captured over Pearl Harbor suddently a criminal to be tried in our courts? What about the English captured during the war for independence?

Y'all in the anti-Gitmo crowd are too focused on Gitmo/its location and not enough on the detainees. There is no reason to treat them as criminals and no jurisprudence for it. They are parties in an armed conflict.

That is the uproar, because they want the amendments to be upheld, not your spin on things.

What amendments?

I suppose the founding fathers didn't envision for the U.S to have terrorists that they locked up because they didn't envision fighting and capturing terrorists while during American wars of aggression.

They couldn't envision a lot of things. Doesn't mean they didn't leave us the necessary tools to deal w/ the situation. And Afghanistan is not a war of aggression.

[Razel]

because they are our citizens, we treated the uni-bomber and other domestic terrorists differently than various GITMO bombers because they are citizens of the US so the constitution applies to them. To want the US constitution to apply to foreign born terrorists is an insult to the people who fought and died to give us those laws/freedoms. This is one of the reasons you see all this uproar over Obama wanting to try terrorists in civilian courts.


if you fought and or died you'd have a good argument, however, rights are god given, not by men and not by the govt.

I'm not sure exactly why they are wanting to try 'terrorists' in federal courts but i'm quite sure it has something to do with legality ;) otherwise they would have shot them all in the head already.