PDA

View Full Version : Devs finally note economy:



Stormsblade
11-11-2009, 21:39
As a final note, these changes should give a boost to the economy, as different types of weapons will be now required to defeat different monsters.

It looks like economy is finally on the devs radar, even if it is just a mad small blip of little importance.

w0rm
11-11-2009, 22:00
Yeah, while I don't think economy will get a real boost after the expansion, I really hope that Devs will focus more on fixing the economy and making crafting more viable after they deliver us a nice expansion :cool:

xpiher
11-11-2009, 22:08
Yeah, while I don't think economy will get a real boost after the expansion, I really hope that Devs will focus more on fixing the economy and making crafting more viable after they deliver us a nice expansion :cool:

Never going to happen because no one buys from people outside their guild/alliance. The vendors will greatly help though.

Yakamoz
11-11-2009, 22:15
It looks like economy is finally on the devs radar, even if it is just a mad small blip of little importance.
Hopefully they will make the economy and resources the main reason behind the conflict and competition in the game. People are reward driven after all.

Tenebrion
11-11-2009, 22:48
They need to allow people to specialize in a specific crafting skill / gathering skill.

Until this is done, the economy will remain subpar, because everyone will be able to craft everything for themselves - thus making resources worth more than gold, and discouraging people from selling finished products or components for products.

Kasmos
11-11-2009, 22:57
I hate reading your posts, please take your economic bullshit and go hide in a corner.

There is no economy in Darkfall, and if you want to argue that there is one, I'll argue that it's failing and pathetic.

So.... shut up.

Stormsblade
11-11-2009, 23:03
Restricting who can craft does not create an economy, that creates reliance on other players.

Economy is about item circulation, value, input, and output.

Currently there is little of the above.

Nudalus
11-11-2009, 23:28
How is defeating different monsters going to BOOST the economy? I think player shops might but that's about it.

With the ease of killing mobs...well...item value is going to crash.

Stormsblade
11-11-2009, 23:30
How is defeating different monsters going to BOOST the economy? I think player shops might but that's about it.

With the ease of killing mobs...well...item value is going to crash.

I didn't say it would work. I simply said that the devs were addressing the economy, or lackthereof. Its better then them not mentioning it at all.

j0NNy RampagE
11-11-2009, 23:34
Fix the zerg; fix the economy.

Mycke
11-11-2009, 23:37
How is defeating different monsters going to BOOST the economy? I think player shops might but that's about it.

With the ease of killing mobs...well...item value is going to crash.

I think there point is that many mobs will be very resistant to many forms of attack (including magic) so people will be using more weapons and armor and thus wearing out more weapons and armor. So this should increase demand.

By how much remains to be seen, but it should have some effect...

GRCPan
11-11-2009, 23:50
Never going to happen because no one buys from people outside their guild/alliance. The vendors will greatly help though.

The problem is that everyone needs everything, I rarely see trading even at clan alliance.

Nudalus
11-11-2009, 23:55
I think there point is that many mobs will be very resistant to many forms of attack (including magic) so people will be using more weapons and armor and thus wearing out more weapons and armor. So this should increase demand.

By how much remains to be seen, but it should have some effect...

But I can farm goblins for a few mins and pick up a billion R0 weapons.

Hey you're resistant to fire magic EAT WIND!...

Resistant to magic? MACE TO THE FACE!...

Staffs take durability from casting stuff same with weapons. I still am projecting not much of a difference other than some guy buying up a billion of R0 weapon to train his melee skill for a while then coming back and buying a different type.

stingerII
11-11-2009, 23:56
vendors outside houses is not going to make any real improvement

Check my suggestion. It would fix/improve it substantially! :D
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=221097

Stormsblade
11-13-2009, 06:07
Vending is a small part of the issue. The economy is totally borked until they fix the supply/demand issue, however.

MrDDT
11-13-2009, 13:24
Never going to happen because no one buys from people outside their guild/alliance. The vendors will greatly help though.


No offense but you are one of the dumbest posters on here with almost always wrong info for the people.

No one buys outside of guild/alliance what a joke.

To everyone else.

Econ is broken for 1 reason and 1 reason only, its way to easy to be top of the crafting in ALL crafts and there is no cost or loss in trying to get there on a toon. ALL toons can be the best crafters so most people are.

If you look at things like Enchanting, you will notice that the econ for it is good, but most of the other crafts are all broke.
Even enchanting is broke for the lowest levels because most people are making those for BELOW cost to make them for people because they are skilling up. Its not til about 75 enchanting is when it starts making a profit. Why is that? Because not everyone is going to use 1.5million gold on enchanting to get to 75, its very hard.

Temko Firewing
11-13-2009, 14:02
It looks like economy is finally on the devs radar, even if it is just a mad small blip of little importance.

more like a smuge of latte. DF Eco needs a utter and complete overhaul in nearly every aspect.


Never going to happen because no one buys from people outside their guild/alliance. The vendors will greatly help though.

xpiher... the more i read from you, the more and more you are shitting utter and total bullshit. vendor will not help, becouse *gasp* people can craft it all themself!


They need to allow people to specialize in a specific crafting skill / gathering skill.

Until this is done, the economy will remain subpar, because everyone will be able to craft everything for themselves - thus making resources worth more than gold, and discouraging people from selling finished products or components for products.

these 2 things mainly:

Specialisations/limitations on crafting skills and encourage/balance so that items are not sold below crafting cost.


No offense but you are one of the dumbest posters on here with almost always wrong info for the people.

No one buys outside of guild/alliance what a joke.
To everyone else.

Econ is broken for 1 reason and 1 reason only, its way to easy to be top of the crafting in ALL crafts and there is no cost or loss in trying to get there on a toon. ALL toons can be the best crafters so most people are.

If you look at things like Enchanting, you will notice that the econ for it is good, but most of the other crafts are all broke.
Even enchanting is broke for the lowest levels because most people are making those for BELOW cost to make them for people because they are skilling up. Its not til about 75 enchanting is when it starts making a profit. Why is that? Because not everyone is going to use 1.5million gold on enchanting to get to 75, its very hard.

you stumble on the biggest issue: Specialisation. it's nothing to do with enchanting,as we've seen during the time more and more enchanters appear: it to is getting offered below cost. the reason 75+ is still offered at profit, is becouse those of us who actually have the skill, are not insane enough to do it at a loss.

few people have enchanting, thus need enchanters. EVERYONE is a tailor/alchemist/bowyer/whatnot and why would they buy it from someone when they can make it themselfes.


so yeah: like tenebrion says (and i hate agreeing with him) We need specialisation. (IE: GIEV FUCKING HARDCAP..or something)

Corp-Por
11-13-2009, 14:27
It looks like economy is finally on the devs radar, even if it is just a mad small blip of little importance.

I know of another game at one stage of its life which required different weapons for different monsters for PVE and all it amounted to was a pain in the ass for players with pack management and clutter as players had to carry around weapons types for all possible encounters in PVE, which soon become a really big annoyance to the players, good luck AV with that idea as its certainly one that's sounds better on paper and already failed in practice, even more so in DF as people really don't want to loose more than they have to when being jumped by PK's whilst in the middle of PVE.

xpiher
11-13-2009, 20:42
People can craft everything themselve, most people don't. Look at EvE, everyone can do everything that means craft as well, and the economy is the best on the market. The problem is everything in darkfall is to easy to get, and most people don't buy things outside clan/alliances. Why? Becuase whats the point of paying someone matt cost + tip when a clan/alliance mate will do it for just matts or cheaper.

They need to make things harder to attain, give reason to go out side clans for crafted items, make items that require multiple components to come from different people, and make it to where not everyone needs to use everything. Only then will the economy be "fixed" It has nothing to do with the ease of crafting. If you don't believe me go look at EvE FFS. Maybe cap the amount of masteries you can have, or choosing a specialization gives better results.

kyberion
11-13-2009, 21:13
I think there point is that many mobs will be very resistant to many forms of attack (including magic) so people will be using more weapons and armor and thus wearing out more weapons and armor. So this should increase demand.

By how much remains to be seen, but it should have some effect...

You were right, that's what the devs thought. However the only thing your affirmation proves is that both of you are blissfully unaware how an economy really works.

The wear and tear of the weapons remains the same. So if I now have to use one weapon 50% of the time and another the other 50% of the time I still get the same wear and tear overall, I still need to buy the same amount of replacements. Instead of 100 1h swords I need to buy 50 maces and 50 1h swords. The effect on economy is ZERO.

This complete lack of understanding lead to the desastrous economy in Darkfall and from what I see so far the expansion will do little to improve it.

xpiher
11-13-2009, 21:23
You were right, that's what the devs thought. However the only thing your affirmation proves is that both of you are blissfully unaware how an economy really works.

The wear and tear of the weapons remains the same. So if I now have to use one weapon 50% of the time and another the other 50% of the time I still get the same wear and tear overall, I still need to buy the same amount of replacements. Instead of 100 1h swords I need to buy 50 maces and 50 1h swords. The effect on economy is ZERO.

This complete lack of understanding lead to the desastrous economy in Darkfall and from what I see so far the expansion will do little to improve it.

They didn't say mobs will be immune to weapons and therefore you don't have to use different weapons for different mobs, it just makes killing them a bit faster.

MrDDT
11-13-2009, 21:33
People can craft everything themselve, most people don't. Look at EvE, everyone can do everything that means craft as well, and the economy is the best on the market. The problem is everything in darkfall is to easy to get, and most people don't buy things outside clan/alliances. Why? Becuase whats the point of paying someone matt cost + tip when a clan/alliance mate will do it for just matts or cheaper.

They need to make things harder to attain, give reason to go out side clans for crafted items, make items that require multiple components to come from different people, and make it to where not everyone needs to use everything. Only then will the economy be "fixed" It has nothing to do with the ease of crafting. If you don't believe me go look at EvE FFS. Maybe cap the amount of masteries you can have, or choosing a specialization gives better results.


Please Devs please dont listen to 90% of what this guy says.

EvE's econ works for many reasons but not for what you just listed.

To spec in a skill in EvE you have to spend a LONG time working trade skills unlike DF and forgo other skills.
Also EvE has a much better econ system due to LOCAL gathering AND LOCAL trade.

You could make tons of money in EvE buying ore from 1 area taking it to another and selling it at a higher rate just because they dont have that ore near that area.

Forcing people to go outside of clan trading is not an answer and I dont see how you could ever enforce it.

MrDDT
11-13-2009, 21:39
You were right, that's what the devs thought. However the only thing your affirmation proves is that both of you are blissfully unaware how an economy really works.

The wear and tear of the weapons remains the same. So if I now have to use one weapon 50% of the time and another the other 50% of the time I still get the same wear and tear overall, I still need to buy the same amount of replacements. Instead of 100 1h swords I need to buy 50 maces and 50 1h swords. The effect on economy is ZERO.

This complete lack of understanding lead to the desastrous economy in Darkfall and from what I see so far the expansion will do little to improve it.


You are correct save for the part that you already have 100 1h swords thus you will have to buy the first 50 maces.
So it will spark a little econ, which is good but still not a major fix.

For crafting they need to have a MUCH greater random effect to crafting, and make dropped items even worse.
Also they need to get players that farm for items (like enchanting) into the crafting mix more.

You want a rank 50 greataxe? well you need runes from these types of mobs.
That way it also makes people mix crafting of ore and wood only and other items you gather off mobs.

You can also make it so items spark rare versions of that item to give the crafter a bonus to the item they are making.

EI. You mining iron ore and every bam you get a rare iron ore (NOT rare type like Leenspar) so now you have say "Pure Iron Ore" you get 2 (or whatever) of those and now you have Pure Iron Ingots. Those give you say a +5% on your damage of the crafted weapon.

Things like that will spark a whole need trade.

You can also make it so using rare mats make it more likely to fail.

Anyways those are just ideas, but right now Econ in DF blows. Just look at regs.

xpiher
11-13-2009, 21:41
Please Devs please dont listen to 90% of what this guy says.

EvE's econ works for many reasons but not for what you just listed.

To spec in a skill in EvE you have to spend a LONG time working trade skills unlike DF and forgo other skills.
Also EvE has a much better econ system due to LOCAL gathering AND LOCAL trade.

You could make tons of money in EvE buying ore from 1 area taking it to another and selling it at a higher rate just because they dont have that ore near that area.

Forcing people to go outside of clan trading is not an answer and I dont see how you could ever enforce it.

I'm not saying you force people out side, you just give reason to. One way to do that is to localize some items, or adding new ones, while adding in local banking. If you have to go to yssam to get an item and niff to get another item, then the people on yssam will be forced to trade with the people on niff and visa versa. We agree on the other stuff, so I don't know why you think I'm an idiot.

Edit: Regs having a celling price is a good thing, or else magic would be much much more expensive. Now, there probably should be more locality and more finite number to regs though.

Floyd
11-13-2009, 22:04
I have played since beta and release and I have never once purchased anything from any player. I have traded mounts for steedgrass, supplied mats for armor and weapons and traded regs for regs but never purchased anything. The only time I came close was to get a couple of runestones but I just farmed some instead.

The only thing I could possibly see myself buying from another player is maybe an orb of might or something like that. Seems kind of odd. Even transferring naked to NA I have no need to purchase anything from anybody.

Bored
11-13-2009, 22:11
I think the real reason for having little to no economy is rather simple. Most clans, as long as they have like 5 active members can and usually will be able to make most things themselves. Maybe not the best stuff, but generally decent enough stuff. Clans have become in general self sufficient units and have no need to seek outside help. Now in many games this would not be a huge deal, but in Darkfall where the vast majority of people are in clans, and these clans tend to be centralized or at least localized in units big enough to be self sufficient, we have very little demand for outside help. There is an economy, it's just more socialist and localized then most people are used to.

xpiher
11-13-2009, 22:15
I think the real reason for having little to no economy is rather simple. Most clans, as long as they have like 5 active members can and usually will be able to make most things themselves. Maybe not the best stuff, but generally decent enough stuff. Clans have become in general self sufficient units and have no need to seek outside help. Now in many games this would not be a huge deal, but in Darkfall where the vast majority of people are in clans, and these clans tend to be centralized or at least localized in units big enough to be self sufficient, we have very little demand for outside help. There is an economy, it's just more socialist and localized then most people are used to.

+ 1 to rep for you.

lanigav
11-13-2009, 22:27
I think the real reason for having little to no economy is rather simple. Most clans, as long as they have like 5 active members can and usually will be able to make most things themselves. Maybe not the best stuff, but generally decent enough stuff. Clans have become in general self sufficient units and have no need to seek outside help. Now in many games this would not be a huge deal, but in Darkfall where the vast majority of people are in clans, and these clans tend to be centralized or at least localized in units big enough to be self sufficient, we have very little demand for outside help. There is an economy, it's just more socialist and localized then most people are used to.

your skills of observation is surging. I think this guy should get the spotter ability for free after the expansion

xpiher
11-14-2009, 00:50
your skills of observation is surging. I think this guy should get the spotter ability for free after the expansion

I've been saying this since launch. A crafting cap isn't going to change that.

Stormsblade
11-14-2009, 19:57
Specialization is not the issue... its supply and demand.

Yakamoz
11-14-2009, 22:09
I hope Aventurine will consider some changes to improve overall economy:
- local resources
- full local banking
- gathering/crafting specialization and cap. As much people are quite right about self-sufficient clans mind that often people don't like to wait for a clan mate to log in to get something, they are willing to pay for an item. With cap/specialization that transaction is more likely to happen.
- caravans ( pack mules, wagons )
- movement speed bonus on roads
- fast trading ships

xpiher
11-14-2009, 22:11
- gathering/crafting specialization and cap. As much people are quite right about self-sufficient clans mind that often people don't like to wait for a clan mate to log in to get something, they are willing to pay for an item. With cap/specialization that transaction is more likely to happen.

I think it won't be needed with the other two you mentioned.

Bored
11-15-2009, 02:42
I think the addition of player vendors will actually help bring about trade, because as mentioned it's often not ideal to have to wait for clan mates, and if enough crafters start setting up shops, these could become known places to get certain objects assuming people keep things stocked.

DeManiac
11-15-2009, 03:38
Yeah, while I don't think economy will get a real boost after the expansion, I really hope that Devs will focus more on fixing the economy and making crafting more viable after they deliver us a nice expansion :cool:

I think the next expansion will have allot more to do with lore and such, and adding more elements like organizations mentioned in lore, it goes in line with character diversity and depth, if they now get the sea part working good, and melee / archery partially balanced compared to magic.

But they will probably take local banking a step further in that expansion if it's liked by the community once it's added, if you take local banking from example eve, it's working just nicely, but then in that game you don't die as often as here.

Still organizations is a step towards localized economy so I don't think traders would be disappointed.

kyberion
11-15-2009, 17:17
They didn't say mobs will be immune to weapons and therefore you don't have to use different weapons for different mobs, it just makes killing them a bit faster.

I didn't say that either. But if a weapon is going to be decisively better than another, people will start using 2 or more weapon types. But the wear and tear rate will be the same, hence no impact on the economy.

On the same note, MrDTT, if you need to stock up on new types of weapons this will only temporarily increase economy. But overall you'll still need the same time to use up the weapons so your budget per months for weapons won't change no matter what you buy. So the overall effect on the economy is still zero.

itto1
11-16-2009, 18:48
I think the real reason for having little to no economy is rather simple. Most clans, as long as they have like 5 active members can and usually will be able to make most things themselves. Maybe not the best stuff, but generally decent enough stuff. Clans have become in general self sufficient units and have no need to seek outside help. Now in many games this would not be a huge deal, but in Darkfall where the vast majority of people are in clans, and these clans tend to be centralized or at least localized in units big enough to be self sufficient, we have very little demand for outside help. There is an economy, it's just more socialist and localized then most people are used to.

+1

In addition to the very good point above, it seems to me that demand for high value items does not exist due to the reality of full loot. I know I never leave the bank with stuff I am not willing to lose. (aka junk items)

Stormsblade
11-17-2009, 01:05
+1

In addition to the very good point above, it seems to me that demand for high value items does not exist due to the reality of full loot. I know I never leave the bank with stuff I am not willing to lose. (aka junk items)

Thiissss!!!