Ac 130 Gunships over Afghanistan

[Vessol]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=12f_1243546697

I know some of you will say "jawsome". But step back from trying to be controversial and not trying to fit into society and look at it. Those are actual people, I know 9/10 of you will go "Hey! It's like Call of Duty Modern Warfare! Awesome!". Even if you don't care about the people getting killed, how much do you think each one of those bombs cost? They use them like a video game, chasing down one poor schmuck for minutes as they continually miss him, bombs constantly exploding around him as he runs away. Finally he starts crawling and they wasted 10 bombs on him, just to make sure he is all good and blown up, what a good way to spend tax-payer money. The fact they act like it's a video game, is just as disturbing.

BTW, they've been cleared to be used against the American people non-leathaly.

"With the increasing involvement of US military in operations other than war..." the AC-130 "would provide commanders a full range of non-lethal weaponry from an airborne platform which was not previously available to them." The paper concludes in part that "As the use of non-lethal weapons increases and it becomes valid and acceptable, more options will become available."

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA420661&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Most likely microwave burn weapons, EMP weapons, lasers that damage optic nerves temporarily. Text from the report in post below.

[Nunz]

I guess it depends on the targets.

Id like to point out that the video game may be reenacting real life.

[Vessol]

Non-Lethal uses of the AC-130 Gunship
10
Anti-Personnel Technologies3
Acoustics – The objective of anti-personnel acoustic weapons is not predominantly to create untenable sound, but rather, to pulsate the targeted people physically. There are three levels of acoustic frequencies that might be applied as weapons: infrasonic, audible sound, and ultrasound. Infrasonic is at the low end of the spectrum (below 50 Hz) that can disorient or cause nausea in personnel. The distress is reported to be temporary and stops when the acoustic source is stopped. Due to the low frequency, it is very difficult to screen out and can penetrate inside buildings and objects. Audible sound, in the frequencies from 20 to 20,000 hertz, can be applied to influence behavior as most people are sensitive to very loud noise. Ultrasound, frequencies above 20 kilohertz, is well known to the medical community. Although no hazard has been identified with diagnostic ultrasound, people exposed to moderate dosages reported noticeable heating effects that could lead to injury.4 There are many military and law enforcement applications for acoustic weapons. In civil disturbances and peace support operations, there is a need to gain control of violent situations with minimal force. These weapons can be used to drive people away from a selected area or to enforce a safety zone between troops or police and potential attackers. The disadvantages associated with acoustic weapons are injury, seizures and possible fratricide. While most acoustic work has focused on anti-personnel applications, some work has been done on anti-material weapons.
Chemicals – Non-lethal chemical technology generally includes agents that induce sleep or produce irritation. The military and law enforcement uses for chemical agents include disabling individuals, large groupings of individuals or assembled troops. The
11
most common of these agents are riot control agents which are used around the world. Although civilians tend to think of them collectively as tear gas, these can affect many human functions, causing tearing, nausea, vomiting, and sometimes pain in the form of a burning sensation. The effective, quick-acting effects of these chemicals can be used to disrupt military operations or as a means to achieve temporary military advantages.
Optical – A family of low energy lasers which disrupt human vision or optical sensors such as night vision devices, target acquisition devices, or range finding equipment. These low powered lasers can temporarily or permanently damage optic nerves in humans rendering the individual “temporarily” blind. The intensity of the effect is dependent on the laser power, range to the threat, environmental conditions, and the stability of the target. The current weapons are small enough to be portable or mounted on air platforms. Lasers that can do damage to the eye are widely available and can be bought on the open market. The Army deployed optical weapons during the Persian Gulf war but it was not used due to insufficient training and tactics. Illumination lasers for individual weapons were deployed to Somalia during peacekeeping operations, however the use was again limited.5
Physical Restraints – A variety of devices developed to immobilize personnel. These include super adhesives, binding coatings, anti-traction compounds, containment devices, and foams. This includes families of substances that impede mobility, create barriers, ensnare, and cause lack of traction for personnel. Some examples of physical restraint devices include weapons with names such as Birdcatcher, Speedbump, Silver Shroud, and Spiderman.
12
Low Kinetic Impact – A family of projectiles and weapons that stunts upon contact with personnel without penetrating. Low Kinetic Energy (KE) munitions injuries have been compared to baseball impact. It offers troops in peace support operations and law enforcement officers attractive options between shooting and not shooting. All low-KE weapons and munitions come with a warning about proper use and acknowledge the possibility of serious injury or death. Weapons developers in the United States have been busily making a variety on non-lethal low-KE munitions. By one count, fifty-nine different rounds and grenades are currently available, with new versions quickly following them to market.6 Examples of low-KE weapons are rubber bullets, sting balls, SPLLAT (Special Purpose Low Lethality Anti-Terrorist shell) and low-KE rounds.
Directed Energy-High Power Microwave (HPM) – Systems that produce microwave radiation. They are considered anti-material weapons but have significant anti-personnel capabilities as well. Some of these HPMs are able to produce a variety of effects on humans to include increasing levels of pain, incapacitation, and disorientation. This is a fast growth area with research on-going. Tactical directed energy systems, such as high powered microwave weapons that shoot photons rather than bullets, will change the battle field forever.
Anti-material Technologies7
Anti-material non-lethal technologies produce the disruption or the limited destruction of material systems and equipment. These weapons are capable of blinding optical sensors and targeting devices, disabling electronics in equipment, preventing the movement of vehicles including aircraft, and causing computer driven systems failure or inducing operating error malfunctions.
13
Chemical – While almost every material can be attacked with an aggressive chemical or biological agent there is no single solvent or organism. Super-acids, super-caustics, or super-aggressive agents derived from chemical or biological enzymes can be found that can degrade or destroy any target. These agents are so powerful that only a small amount is necessary to destroy the designated target. While total area coverage would unlikely be authorized, precision delivery methods that can ensure no contact with humans is feasible. An anti-material approach that offers great potential is to degrade chemical bonds of component parts rather the entire targets. Vulnerabilities include adhesives, rubbers (natural or synthetic), resins, coverings, joints, metal pins, or insulation. The most viable places to attack and degrade are the critical subcomponents. A small amount of damage at key points can prevent an entire weapon system from functioning properly. Biochemists all over the world are working on developing new and improved organisms and compounds. The very bad news is that these agents are becoming relatively easy to acquire and could easily be in the hands of an adversary.
Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and High Power Microwave (HPM) – These weapons deliver high energy pulses which are capable of damaging or destroying electronic weapons or equipment which are susceptible to damage by power surges. The basic concept of these weapons is to generate one or more very intense pulses of electromagnetic power that penetrate non-shielded equipment to degrade or destroy sensitive electronic circuitry. A report indicates that effective radii of “hundreds of meters or more” are possible.8 A massive EMP strike could cripple a nation temporarily and make recovery efforts very expensive. EMP and HMP appear to be at the forefront of 14
NLW technology research, and advances are leading increasing to compactness which will enable delivery via bombs, missiles or artillery shells.

[Nunz]

Yeah, most of what you just posted has been talked about for years but have been scoffed at as conspiracy theories.. eg 'brown noise'

[Laxe]

needs better graphics, could be fun to join army

[1998altima]

I'd like to quote the late great Tupac.

"Well hey... that's just the way it is."

[Sbrafk]

Yep, war is brutal. People die, good money is wasted on destructive purposes. Maybe one day we'll stop killing each other over resources and ideology, but right now; accept the reality of it.

Perhaps if the American people actually did something directly for once instead of letting incompetent representatives run their affairs.. :ninja:

[1998altima]

Yep, war is brutal. People die, good money is wasted on destructive purposes. Maybe one day we'll stop killing each other over resources and ideology, but right now; accept the reality of it.

Perhaps if the American people actually did something directly for once instead of letting incompetent representatives run their affairs.. :ninja:

And what 'oh great master' should they do?

Protest? Riot? Get naked and hump eachother?

You talk as though it's the American's who cause all of the trouble yet you discern no viable solution/alternative.

Perhaps the other countries people should tell their incompetent representatives to hold economic sanctions against America if they hate it so much.

[Falokis]

AC 130 basically fires artillery. It's very cheap compared to smart bombs and such. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's just a howitzer.

[Sbrafk]

And what 'oh great master' should they do?

Protest? Riot? Get naked and hump eachother?

You talk as though it's the American's who cause all of the trouble yet you discern no viable solution/alternative.

Perhaps the other countries people should tell their incompetent representatives to hold economic sanctions against America if they hate it so much.

Haha, I'm no fucking armchair revolutionary. I just say it as it is. Everyone seems to groan and piss about the economy, the WoT, whatever, but it's the reps who make the decisions. The gap from 'the will of the people' and what their elected representatives actually do..

Actually, I really have no fucking clue what you're trying to say. I certainly don't hate America or americans, and I certainly don't place blame on any particular individual or nation.

[1998altima]

Actually, I really have no fucking clue what you're trying to say. I certainly don't hate America or americans, and I certainly don't place blame on any particular individual or nation.

Oh were cool then.

I thought you were a person from another country who was talking out their ass about how the U.S. causes all of the problems in the world.

[Apex Vertigo]

That's just not fair.

Vessol you act like we should sympathize with the terrorist that we getting blown into tiny pieces. If it takes 10 bombs to kill a terrorist then it takes 10 bombs.

[Aleucard]

I see two main problems: people seem to rely on the spray and pray tactic more than they do actual targeting, and the equipment/ammo is too expensive. Work on either, and you'll see immediate drops in the monetary cost of war. Of course, the best option is for it to not happen in the first place, but that's not always possible.

[Nunz]

I see two main problems: people seem to rely on the spray and pray tactic more than they do actual targeting, and the equipment/ammo is too expensive. Work on either, and you'll see immediate drops in the monetary cost of war. Of course, the best option is for it to not happen in the first place, but that's not always possible.

This is very incorrect. The rounds they're using in this video are used for target practice.... They didn't drop a 100,000$ missile on this place.

Tbh, "spray and pray"? Wtf are you talking about? This post is a joke and lacks and common sense or life experience towards the subject you're talking about.

Edit: They dropped tuna cans filled with HE in this video...

[Apex Vertigo]

Spray and Pray? These are highly trained professionals gunning these ships, not some 13 year old playing GTA, don't be stupid.

[Sqarak]

These well disciplined, properly trained, mature, intelligent and ethical men will never turn against the the citizens they swore to protect. You have nothing to worry about.


True story.

[dinkfall]

Why do you hate terrorists so much?

[Apex Vertigo]

Why do you hate terrorists so much?

The same reason I hate any one that murders people for unjust reasons?

[Falokis]

Why do you hate terrorists so much?I could give one crap about them if they didn't blow up shit in just about every country in the world. If they kept their asses at home, I wouldn't care one bit. I personally can't wait till we run out of oil so, we can stop giving a shit about 3rd world shit holes with oil.

[nacitar sevaht]

unjust reasons

This phrase cannot be accurately/objectively defined.

[Villa]

One day, there will be an equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials, where various American war criminals will be hanged.

[Tenebrion]

One day, there will be an equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials, where various American war criminals will be hanged.


Yes, and someday I'll shit cotton-candy that we can all enjoy together.

[Skyborn]

I don't care what you all say. The AC-130 is fucking sweet. Allow me to tell you the story of how it was created.

Army Guy: "This Howitzer is freaking AWESOME! If only I didn't have to lug it around..."

Air Force Guy: "I have some old crappy cargo jets...let's mount the bitch in the side and melt people's faces!"

The end.


And fuck you Villa.

[Pyrostasis]

One day, there will be an equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials, where various American war criminals will be hanged.

Only problem with that, is it will most likely be run by the UN. So, when they decide to try and hang us "Evil Americans" it will be kinda like.

"Hey guys, you need to come to court so we can try you for war crimes"

"No"

"Ok, we are going to sanction you now"

"Ok"

"Now that we have sanctioned you, please come to the court"

"Nope"

"Please?"

"Go to hell"

"You are making us angry!"

"We still arent coming"

"Fine we are going to pass a resolution calling you a meany and denouncing you"

"Ok"

"Now that you are a meany, and have been denounced, are you coming to trial?"

"Nope"

And on and on...

Like us or not over here in the US we actually deal with threats. Rest of the world seems perfectly willing to sit on the front row on the train ride to hell screaming please stop all the way.

You do realize that bad guys... dont care about your rules, your regulations, your children, etc... and trying to negotiate with them has gotten you folks jack squat.

You guys are more than welcome to sit back and talk if you like and wait for "Peace". I personally prefer to cover my ass, attempt to negotiate, and then kill the mother fuckers who are to stupid to listen.

[jonyak]

:rolleyes:wow.

AMERICA!!! FUCK YEAH!

[Punish]

is this a preview of COD4:MW2?

looks hella sweet

also this:

AMERICA!!! FUCK YEAH![/QUOTE]

[Villa]

Only problem with that, is it will most likely be run by the UN. So, when they decide to try and hang us "Evil Americans" it will be kinda like.

"Hey guys, you need to come to court so we can try you for war crimes"

"No"

"Ok, we are going to sanction you now"

"Ok"

"Now that we have sanctioned you, please come to the court"

"Nope"

"Please?"

"Go to hell"

"You are making us angry!"

"We still arent coming"

"Fine we are going to pass a resolution calling you a meany and denouncing you"

"Ok"

"Now that you are a meany, and have been denounced, are you coming to trial?"

"Nope"

And on and on...

Like us or not over here in the US we actually deal with threats. Rest of the world seems perfectly willing to sit on the front row on the train ride to hell screaming please stop all the way.

You do realize that bad guys... dont care about your rules, your regulations, your children, etc... and trying to negotiate with them has gotten you folks jack squat.

You guys are more than welcome to sit back and talk if you like and wait for "Peace". I personally prefer to cover my ass, attempt to negotiate, and then kill the mother fuckers who are to stupid to listen.
You guys have mongos for Presidents.

[Rachsucht]

You guys have mongos for Presidents.

You guys have a pedophile* as a prophet.






*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

[Tenebrion]

Britain doesn't have prophets. Unless you count Monty Python.

[Pyrostasis]

You dont have to like our president(s) by any means, hell Im not to fond of our current one...I just dont see the link between us and nazis.

We do our best when we are killing folks who need to be killed to minimize collateral damage, but its war, and its going to happen. Especially when those we are fighting use hospitals, daycares, and other soft targets to hide their fighters, weapons, radar, etc.

However, those that demonize America should look back at WW2, compare the collateral damage there to whats going on today. There simply is no comparison.

No one should be offended by that video, it shows American military personnel engaging targets next to a mosque and leaving the mosque alone.

They hit the targets they were ordered too and left pretty much everything else. Granted one could say it took a few rounds on some of em, but you try leading a target from a few miles away with artillery by eye thats juking you and see how well you do =)

[Rachsucht]

Britain doesn't have prophets. Unless you count Monty Python.

I give it 20 years until it's the United Islamic Kingdom.

[Vessol]

Yes! We are blowing up thousands of people in the Middle East so they don't come to America! There is no way it could inflare their attitude towards us and create more American hatred and consequently, more terrorist attacks! No way in the world!

[Falokis]

Yes! We are blowing up thousands of people in the Middle East so they don't come to America! There is no way it could inflare their attitude towards us and create more American hatred and consequently, more terrorist attacks! No way in the world!That's the attitude! We can stop murder or theft either so, we might as well stop trying.

[Apex Vertigo]

This phrase cannot be accurately/objectively defined.

Kill thousands of people totally unrelated to you or your cause simply because they live in a country you dislike is unjust. Pretty damn cut and dry.

[Vessol]

That's the attitude! We can stop murder or theft either so, we might as well stop trying.

I say we bomb Harlem. It will get rid of crime.

[Apex Vertigo]

I could give one crap about them if they didn't blow up shit in just about every country in the world. If they kept their asses at home, I wouldn't care one bit. I personally can't wait till we run out of oil so, we can stop giving a shit about 3rd world shit holes with oil.

Would they still be terrorist if they weren't... terrorizing?

[Pyrostasis]

Yes! We are blowing up thousands of people in the Middle East so they don't come to America! There is no way it could inflare their attitude towards us and create more American hatred and consequently, more terrorist attacks! No way in the world!

And leaving them alone isnt going to keep them from plotting attacks against us either.

So what would you suggest Vessol? Talking to them?

Look how well thats working in Iran and North Korea in countrys that are radical, but at least not currently at the point of blowing themselves up to kill women and children. Is it working?

Nope.

We could wait on the UN to do something...but I think we all know the UN has very little real authority or power, they cant seem to get anyone to listen or abide by international law...much less not be corrupt itself.

Ignoring them doesnt work, talking to them doesnt work, killing them in the thousands has at least kept them from doing any damage here in the U.S. So, unless you have a better idea, Im perfectly fine with the AC 130 shooting fest.

[Vessol]

And leaving them alone isnt going to keep them from plotting attacks against us either.

So what would you suggest Vessol? Talking to them?

Look how well thats working in Iran and North Korea in countrys that are radical, but at least not currently at the point of blowing themselves up to kill women and children. Is it working?

Nope.

We could wait on the UN to do something...but I think we all know the UN has very little real authority or power, they cant seem to get anyone to listen or abide by international law...much less not be corrupt itself.

Ignoring them doesnt work, talking to them doesnt work, killing them in the thousands has at least kept them from doing any damage here in the U.S. So, unless you have a better idea, Im perfectly fine with the AC 130 shooting fest.

Thank you Mr. NeoCon.

Perhaps we shouldn't have fucked around in the Middle East like a sandbox for the last half century. I dunno, maybe that would have stopped this all along. But no! They hate us because of our freedoms!

So let's continue the policy of the last 50 years and create more people who hate us not in just the Middle East, but the entire world!

[Paralda]

I agree with Vessol on this issue.

/thread

[Nunz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq77YVx0dnk


Wait, whaaaat

[Falokis]

I say we bomb Harlem. It will get rid of crime.I bet it would help.

[Vessol]

I bet it would help.

And if we started hunting white people, we'd get rid of tons of greedy corrupt corporations.

[Pyrostasis]

Thank you Mr. NeoCon.

Perhaps we shouldn't have fucked around in the Middle East like a sandbox for the last half century. I dunno, maybe that would have stopped this all along. But no! They hate us because of our freedoms!

So let's continue the policy of the last 50 years and create more people who hate us not in just the Middle East, but the entire world!

I have no issues being called a conservative at all, but I do find it amusing you use it as an insult. However, to think that the folks currently blowing themselves up would be leaving us alone if we had simply not left our borders is a bit naive.

[Pyrostasis]

And if we started hunting white people, we'd get rid of tons of greedy corrupt corporations.

Ahh yes cause capitalism is evil! It must be stopped! Cause the alternatives have worked oh so well...

[Vessol]

I have no issues being called a conservative at all, but I do find it amusing you use it as an insult. However, to think that the folks currently blowing themselves up would be leaving us alone if we had simply not left our borders is a bit naive.

I said NeoConservative dipshit, not Conservative.

And I didn't say that, your argumentative skills are lacking. Simply, by continuing our foreign affairs of the past 50 years, we are just going to create more potential terrorist attacks.

Go watch "The Power of Nightmares" by the BBC.

Ahh yes cause capitalism is evil! It must be stopped! Cause the alternatives have worked oh so well...

Your sarcasm detecting skills are about as notable as your debating skills.

[Nevron]

Old.

[Pyrostasis]

I said NeoConservative dipshit, not Conservative.

And I didn't say that, your argumentative skills are lacking. Simply, by continuing our foreign affairs of the past 50 years, we are just going to create more potential terrorist attacks.

Go watch "The Power of Nightmares" by the BBC.



Your sarcasm detecting skills are about as notable as your debating skills.

Sorry its hard to tell when you are being "Foolish" and really believe what you are saying, and when you are simply being sarcastic.

At this point in time we have some rather nasty buggers out there who arent to fond of anyone in the west. Our stance is irrelevant, which can be seen by looking at who they are attacking, even those that are going out of their way to be friendly to Muslims and their interests.

Fact of the matter is, the crazy's that are blowing themselves up are...well... crazy and regardless of what we do are going to stay that way. We can ignore them and hope they go away, we can try and talk to them (which doesnt work...they are crazy after all), or we can try and kill them before they kill us.

I dont see another option. If you see one, please state it.

You are saying that you think our policy for the past 50 years has been bad, cool beans I can respect that at least intellectually, my question is, what NOW would you do?

That's the point were most Liberals snap. They can point out all of the problems of the past (regardless of their voting for and agreeing to it) but they cant seem to put up a plan that is better.

[1998altima]

Sorry its hard to tell when you are being "Foolish" and really believe what you are saying, and when you are simply being sarcastic.

At this point in time we have some rather nasty buggers out there who arent to fond of anyone in the west. Our stance is irrelevant, which can be seen by looking at who they are attacking, even those that are going out of their way to be friendly to Muslims and their interests.

Fact of the matter is, the crazy's that are blowing themselves up are...well... crazy and regardless of what we do are going to stay that way. We can ignore them and hope they go away, we can try and talk to them (which doesnt work...they are crazy after all), or we can try and kill them before they kill us.

I dont see another option. If you see one, please state it.

You are saying that you think our policy for the past 50 years has been bad, cool beans I can respect that at least intellectually, my question is, what NOW would you do?

That's the point were most Liberals snap. They can point out all of the problems of the past (regardless of their voting for and agreeing to it) but they cant seem to put up a plan that is better.

A better plan would be to leave Afghanistan.

AFGHANISTAN HAS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER HAS BEEN DEFEATED BY AN OCCUPYING COUNTRY!

Why does the U.S. think it can do this?

The U.S. main goal wants Afghanistan to become a democracy. Right?

However, in order to have a democratic nation their must first be a history of lawfulness within the country. Afghanistan's history is full of civil wars and warlords fighting each other since the dawn of fucking time.

Does that sound like a democratic country to you?

[Pyrostasis]

So your plan is to pull out of Afghanistan completely, what about the terrorists using it as a operating grounds? ( it and Pakistan)

Just leave them be?

[Vessol]

So your plan is to pull out of Afghanistan completely, what about the terrorists using it as a operating grounds? ( it and Pakistan)

Just leave them be?

Watch "The Power of Nightmares".

You could get a job as a Fox New pundit.

[1998altima]

So your plan is to pull out of Afghanistan completely, what about the terrorists using it as a operating grounds? ( it and Pakistan)

Just leave them be?

Yes just leave. The U.S. has been fucking around their for too long.

I thought the original strategy was futile to begin with, but hey what do I know.

[Paralda]

I have no issues being called a conservative at all, but I do find it amusing you use it as an insult. However, to think that the folks currently blowing themselves up would be leaving us alone if we had simply not left our borders is a bit naive.

A neo-con is more like a McCarthy fear-monger than Josiah Bailey, who was a conservative.

[Out_law]

I give it 20 years until it's the United Islamic Kingdom.
i hope will be faster the problem is UK laws only allow to one wife into UK

[Paralda]

Sorry its hard to tell when you are being "Foolish" and really believe what you are saying, and when you are simply being sarcastic.

At this point in time we have some rather nasty buggers out there who arent to fond of anyone in the west. Our stance is irrelevant, which can be seen by looking at who they are attacking, even those that are going out of their way to be friendly to Muslims and their interests.

Fact of the matter is, the crazy's that are blowing themselves up are...well... crazy and regardless of what we do are going to stay that way. We can ignore them and hope they go away, we can try and talk to them (which doesnt work...they are crazy after all), or we can try and kill them before they kill us.

I dont see another option. If you see one, please state it.

You are saying that you think our policy for the past 50 years has been bad, cool beans I can respect that at least intellectually, my question is, what NOW would you do?

That's the point were most Liberals snap. They can point out all of the problems of the past (regardless of their voting for and agreeing to it) but they cant seem to put up a plan that is better.

I apologize for the double post, but I'm going to call bullshit. You cannot defeat "terrorism." Terrorism is generated when we piss people off. We piss people off by killing people. So, logically, in order to kill terrorism, we do they opposite. We make nice. Pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq, the Middle East in general, and send aid. Make jobs, give food, fix the things we broke. Make the populace of the Middle East respect us and terrorist attacks will subside.

Attacking a group of people we believe to be "terrorists" will not get rid of them. For every one we kill, we piss off their son, brother, father, uncle, nephew, cousin, and whomever else they were close with, and we recruit 10 more. The US's campaign in the Middle East has actually made the terrorist groups grow. But, I'm sure you can't understand that logic, either, so I'll put it in terms you CAN understand.

On 9/11, 2,993 died. It was a tragedy. Truly a disturbing time in our country's history. But was our response appropriate? In Iraq, the Opinion Research Business Survey estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the conflict. In Afghanistan, there are around 50,000 DOCUMENTED deaths as a result of the conflict. This only includes deaths reported by news, military, or local authorities. From that number, we can assume that scores more died, but let's not. 2,993 deaths to 1,100,000 deaths. I wonder why they hate us.

[Vessol]

A simple, yet effective game to show the futility of "The War on Terror" or as Obama now calls it "The Overseas Contingency Plan".

http://www.newsgaming.com/games/index12.htm

[Aleucard]

One of the reasons why we've failed in both countries for the past 8 years is because we've been fighting the wrong war. We've been fighting as if the opponents were a conventional military, and destroying them wherever we find them is all that is necessary. However, obviously, they aren't. They're basically a self-regenerating wall of flesh to beat at whatever stands against it.

What we need to realize is that these adversaries live and die on the opinion of the locals. If we do something to piss off the locals, like torture or cluster bombs for example, we add to the recruitment rate of the enemy. Thankfully, this goes the other way as well. If we do everything in our power to improve the conditions around our bases and troop deployments, like building new facilities and reducing crime rates for example, eventually the locals will start to like us, which will make them more hostile to our opponents. If this is done properly, we shouldn't have much problems with this "war".

[Nunz]

One of the reasons why we've failed in both countries for the past 8 years is because we've been fighting the wrong war. We've been fighting as if the opponents were a conventional military, and destroying them wherever we find them is all that is necessary. However, obviously, they aren't. They're basically a self-regenerating wall of flesh to beat at whatever stands against it.

What we need to realize is that these adversaries live and die on the opinion of the locals. If we do something to piss off the locals, like torture or cluster bombs for example, we add to the recruitment rate of the enemy. Thankfully, this goes the other way as well. If we do everything in our power to improve the conditions around our bases and troop deployments, like building new facilities and reducing crime rates for example, eventually the locals will start to like us, which will make them more hostile to our opponents. If this is done properly, we shouldn't have much problems with this "war".

I agree. You can fight a war for profit or you can fight a war like this to improve the lives of others. Something that has been shown the people of Iraq would approve of and do want. Terrorist blowing up school buses of kids is a big no-no. Which they did recently and the public was outraged. It does take sacrifice from both sides. Including lives and money.

I wonder if the same people against this war, which I am in many ways, would still feel the same way about the way if we were there to help and improve basic livings and not for oil or to expand our military reach into places like Iran.

[Aleucard]

I think that most of them (obviously not the hardcore batshit people, of course) would support the war if it were done in this fashion. It would definitely have better results, and faster too. I think that if these wars were fought this way from the start, we'd have been done with it in 2006. This is PRECISELY what happens when you let a bunch of idiots run the show for almost a decade. The only difference is that this group of them done more damage in a short time span than all the previous ones. Why does this country refuse to learn to quit bashing its head with a hot frying pan?

[jakeoc]

And what 'oh great master' should they do?

Protest? Riot? Get naked and hump eachother?

I think if americans just sat around all day fucking each other they would be in less "wars" and be more liked by the rest of the world.

[Skyborn]

All this anti America bullshit gets old. Mainly because its a situation of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If the US doesn't intervene, the world complains that the sole superpower isn't doing its part. If we do act people bitch about the way its done.

Quite frankly I would love to see the US say "Fuck you guys were going home" and remove all its foreign basing from Europe, Japan, etc. Stop giving AIDS medication and education to Africa, stop providing humanitarian relief to Palestinians, Rwanda, SE Asia, South America etc.

It would fuck the world but at least we would get the satisfaction of watching people fucking flounder around.

So before you bitch and complain maybe you should consider the impacts of the US punching out and leaving you all to handle shit yourselves. Let me know how that works out.

[Villa]

I think the US should show they are willing to support peace by doing some 'friendly fire' on Israel.
This will get them some +points from everyone except Israelis.
Unfortunately, Israel controls US foreign policy so this is never actually going to happen :(

[rekker]

They use them like a video game, chasing down one poor schmuck for minutes as they continually miss him, bombs constantly exploding around him as he runs away. Finally he starts crawling and they wasted 10 bombs on him, just to make sure he is all good and blown up, what a good way to spend tax-payer money. The fact they act like it's a video game, is just as disturbing.

You may be a little detached from reality here. I doubt this man was an innocent civilian and I very much doubt his killers want to be thousands of miles from home just to play a 'video game'. Claiming they're acting like they're playing a video game is pretty unfair considering you have (I'm guessing) no idea how it feels to be paid to kill people.

[Villa]

You may be a little detached from reality here. I doubt this man was an innocent civilian and I very much doubt his killers want to be thousands of miles from home just to play a 'video game'. Claiming they're acting like they're playing a video game is pretty unfair considering you have (I'm guessing) no idea how it feels to be paid to kill people.
As an alleged Englishman, you have no right to defend the cowboay antics of the American military.
Just remember our poor squaddies who got shot up by A10s and Apaches etc
Shame on you.

[rekker]

As an alleged Englishman, you have no right to defend the cowboay antics of the American military.
Just remember our poor squaddies who got shot up by A10s and Apaches etc
Shame on you.

This is true :(

[Vessol]

So being against American imperialism, even when you're an American, is now anti-American?

wut?

BTW, go look up on the FBI's most wanted, Usama bin Laden. Look at what crimes he is convicted of. See 9/11 on there? If we were so damned sure that he was behind it all then why isn't it listed as one of his crimes as much as the bombing Oklahoma? Hell he only apparently "admitted" he was behind the attacks in 2004, 4 days before Bush was reelected.
And how do they convict "Al-Queda" of the crime as proof? Oh, some passports of the hijackers which somehow survived an exploding jet which vaporized the passengers. Oh and some footage of some ordinary looking Arabs walking around in an air port, how creepy.
Not to mention Al-Queda isn't some huge powerful organization that has roots in countries all over the world and runs massive training camps and is pretty much the non-fictional Cobra Team. That doesn't exist, it was all made up, to scare people(go watch 'The Power of Nightmares', a BBC documentary). No, rather it's a collection of ideas adopted by young angry Islamic males across the Middle East and the world. And why do you think they get angry? They don't suddenly wake up and go "I hate freedom! I hate Americans! Im going to kill em all!". Do you suddenly wake up and shout "I hate Islam! I hate Arabs! I'm going to kill em all!", doubtfully, or at least you wouldn't shout that out without some prerequisite for it.

[Falokis]

lol @ 9/11 truthers

[Vessol]

lol @ 9/11 truthers

I'm not a 9/11 Truther. I believe the government had a lot of foreknowledge and let it happen for political gain. I don't side with the ideas of bombs in the supports of the buildings or remote controlled planes, w/e. I just question the official story, is that now a bad thing? To question something that a government panel says?

Sorry, but I was raised differently then most Americans. I was raised to research anthing and question everything. I know, such a concept is quite foreign.

I'm not surprised though. You've proven time and time again that you can't form a coherent argument so you go to ad hominem and strawmen attacks.

[Villa]

I'm not a 9/11 Truther. I believe the government had a lot of foreknowledge and let it happen for political gain.
This has been my view for the past 8 years.

[Rachsucht]

This has been my view for the past 8 years.

Yes, but you're a troll and Vessol is serious.

[doomahx]

AFGHANISTAN HAS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER HAS BEEN DEFEATED BY AN OCCUPYING COUNTRY!

Why does the U.S. think it can do this?



because we're america! fuck yeah!

[Falokis]

I believe the government had plenty of knowledge prior to 9/11 happening. I don't believe they let it happen. I believe they didn't piece it together and dropped the ball. I believe flight 93 was probably shot down.

[Vessol]

I believe the government had plenty of knowledge prior to 9/11 happening. I don't believe they let it happen. I believe they didn't piece it together and dropped the ball. I believe flight 93 was probably shot down.

I don't think it was vast, but I think a number of key officials let it happen. Most notably the stand-down orders by Dick Cheny. He granted himself that authority 5 months before 9/11 and just gave it up 5 months after.

Another reference I want to make is the pilot episode of The Lone Gunman, it aired in early 2001 and was being shot in 2000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6EWF3vulc

One might mark off the plot as simply an extremely lucky coincidence, but the actors and writers themselves have come out and talked about how the CIA gave the X-Files and the Lone Gunman writers ideas constantly, and that the pilot episode was a plot that the CIA suggested.

[jonyak]

I believe the government had plenty of knowledge prior to 9/11 happening. I don't believe they let it happen. I believe they didn't piece it together and dropped the ball. I believe flight 93 was probably shot down.

I remember them talking about it being shot down on the day it happened, and then that story disapeared.

[Vessol]

I remember them talking about it being shot down on the day it happened, and then that story disapeared.

What are you? A conspiracy theorist?

[Ziegler]

A better plan would be to leave Afghanistan.

AFGHANISTAN HAS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER HAS BEEN DEFEATED BY AN OCCUPYING COUNTRY!

Why does the U.S. think it can do this?

well....if it wasnt for the pansy ass americans being all worried about women and children...we could win, but they seem to think it is a bad thing to kill civilians that aid and abet the ones we are looking for....sometimes...genocide is the right answer.

[Vessol]

well....if it wasnt for the pansy ass americans being all worried about women and children...we could win, but they seem to think it is a bad thing to kill civilians that aid and abet the ones we are looking for....sometimes...genocide is the right answer.

Well that's already happening, we just have a different word for it. Collateral damage.

[FireCrusher.]

I never really got into the whole Afghanistan war thing since I live in Iceland (No, I do not live in igloos and it only gets cold during the winter.) and yeah.. I dunno where I was going with this actually....

[Vessol]

I never really got into the whole Afghanistan war thing since I live in Iceland (No, I do not live in igloos and it only gets cold during the winter.) and yeah.. I dunno where I was going with this actually....

How's your economy doing? I heard the worldwide depression is over because Obama saved us all.

[FireCrusher.]

How's your economy doing? I heard the worldwide depression is over because Obama saved us all.

What economy..?

[Ziegler]

Well that's already happening, we just have a different word for it. Collateral damage.

no we dont...if we did as I said...there wouldnt be a mosque standing on sand in that part of the world.

[Falokis]

Well that's already happening, we just have a different word for it. Collateral damage.Buy a dictionary. One is targeting and systematically killing a whole ethnic group, the other is the accidental killing of civilians in a war zone. There is a big difference, but I don't expect you to understand it.

[Vessol]

Buy a dictionary. One is targeting and systematically killing a whole ethnic group, the other is the accidental killing of civilians in a war zone. There is a big difference, but I don't expect you to understand it.

L2sarcasm

[Aleucard]

The purging of innocent civilians is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive. Also, sometimes, they're too afraid to fight back. That's a large part of why these assholes enjoy safe haven; their hosts are too scared of the consequences of ousting these vermin. If we punish the innocent people forced to assist these people, then that just bolsters their side.

[1998altima]

well....if it wasnt for the pansy ass americans being all worried about women and children...we could win, but they seem to think it is a bad thing to kill civilians that aid and abet the ones we are looking for....sometimes...genocide is the right answer.

Let's imagine this.

Four men burst into your home with ak's pointed at your family and state that they need to stay at your home.

Would you:

A) Say no and let your wife and children get raped while you die painfully.

B) Let them stay hoping that you won't get carpet-bombed by Americans for 'aiding and abetting terrorists.'

You have 30 seconds to answer, GO!

[Aleucard]

Let's imagine this.

Four men burst into your home with ak's pointed at your family and state that they need to stay at your home.

Would you:

A) Say no and let your wife and children get raped while you die painfully.

B) Let them stay hoping that you won't get carpet-bombed by Americans for 'aiding and abetting terrorists.'

You have 30 seconds to answer, GO!
Before they have the chance to say it, I will already. The third option would be to wait for them to all go to sleep then kill them with an axe or something, or get one of the patrols to do it for them. First off, not everyone has the stones or the skill to be able to take on/out multiple targets, asleep or not. Second, even if they could, if they didn't do it PERFECTLY, their family is dead. Third, even if he DID do it perfectly, his entire family and friend network would have a target on their heads. Not everyone is that ballsy.

[Vessol]

The world is not black and white. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys". Come on people, this is elementary stuff. Do you honestly think there is a bunch of "bad guys" out there who just hate America for no reason besides to be bad and they just want to destroy America because they hate freedom?

[Aleucard]

The world is not black and white. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys". Come on people, this is elementary stuff. Do you honestly think there is a bunch of "bad guys" out there who just hate America for no reason besides to be bad and they just want to destroy America because they hate freedom?
No. There's various reasons to want to do things like this. Some could be forced to do it (example #1; African militias who "recruit" prepubescents via slaughtering their families), some could have little other choice (absolutely need the money), some are true monsters that need to be eradicated (the people who shoot up schools, for example). I don't view things like this in terms of nationality. Don't mistake me for someone that does.

[Vessol]

You still see in black and white. Let's use your school example. The Chechen militants who shot up the Russian school was not justified, but they had their own reasons. Go look up the First and Second Chechen Wars. The Russians are not the good guys there and neither are the Chechens.

As for Africa. The same goes there. One tribe slaughters another tribe. Darfur is especially like that. Tribesmen and militias slaughtering each other.

[Paralda]

Before they have the chance to say it, I will already. The third option would be to wait for them to all go to sleep then kill them with an axe or something, or get one of the patrols to do it for them. First off, not everyone has the stones or the skill to be able to take on/out multiple targets, asleep or not. Second, even if they could, if they didn't do it PERFECTLY, their family is dead. Third, even if he DID do it perfectly, his entire family and friend network would have a target on their heads. Not everyone is that ballsy.

You don't live in an action movie. You'd probably piss your pants.

[Vessol]

You don't live in an action movie. You'd probably piss your pants.

You're on Forumfall, everyone here thinks they are Rambo incarnate.

[Aleucard]

You don't live in an action movie. You'd probably piss your pants.
That was the EXACT point I was making. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, I take it?

Vessol, at the ROOT of these things, almost without fail, the cause is someone is too greedy or too sadistic for a normal human to comprehend. That, my friend, IS true evil. Of course the people under it are mostly in the grey areas. That goes without saying.

[Vessol]

That was the EXACT point I was making. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, I take it?

Vessol, at the ROOT of these things, almost without fail, the cause is someone is too greedy or too sadistic for a normal human to comprehend. That, my friend, IS true evil. Of course the people under it are mostly in the grey areas. That goes without saying.

So it's only the evil people we are fighting?

[1998altima]

That was the EXACT point I was making. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, I take it?

Vessol, at the ROOT of these things, almost without fail, the cause is someone is too greedy or too sadistic for a normal human to comprehend. That, my friend, IS true evil. Of course the people under it are mostly in the grey areas. That goes without saying.

But what happens when there are evil people on both sides of the war?

By your definition that is most certainly the case in the current NATO(Primarily U.S.) vs Afghanistan war.

[Aleucard]

But what happens when there are evil people on both sides of the war?

By your definition that is most certainly the case in the current NATO(Primarily U.S.) vs Afghanistan war.
Which is precisely why I want a complete reformation of the way government officials get elected. Too many people are bought and sold before they even get in the seat by corporations already, and it'll only get worse. This needs to be taken out of the equation at the soonest possible venture.

Vessol, they're not the only people we're up against, but they're the people at the top of the matter in most cases. Assholes have repeatedly proven that they can persuade otherwise good people to go along with them (examples are Hitler, Kim Jong Il, and various other "leaders" throughout history).